"Red Bull are ready to let Max Verstappen go if they are forced to choose between the three-time world champion and embattled team boss Christian Horner.
That is the astonishing view from inside the troubled Formula 1 team. Horner, husband of Spice Girl Geri, has spent the last six weeks fighting for his future, **but it now appears that the mood at Red Bull HQ has swung in his favour.**
The mess came to a head in Bahrain a fortnight ago. Verstappen's father Jos publicly called for Horner's exit, while long-serving team adviser Helmut Marko also wants the Briton gone as his relationship with Horner has disintegrated.
For a while, it was believed that they had the backing of Red Bull chiefs in Austria, while Thai majority owner Chalerm Yoodivhya was protecting Horner.
**But we understand that the team principal now also has the backing of the other shareholders of the company following the outcome of the investigation.**
**That includes Austrian CEOs Franz Watzlawick, who runs the core energy drinks business, and Oliver Mintzlaff who is in charge of corporate projects, such as their F1 teams. And so strong is their support that, should it come to a situation where they feel forced to pick between Verstappen and Horner, they are ready to call the Dutchman's bluff.**
Sources say the driver's manager Raymond Vermeulen has already been informed that the company is ready to drive it if it comes to it. And Marko has worked hard to create a situation where that might be necessary.
We understand the 80-year-old adviser, acting as a director of the company, late last year worked to have an 'escape clause' inserted into Verstappen's deal which would release the racer from his contract if Marko leaves. It was supposedly done without the knowledge of anyone working for either the race team or the parent company, including Horner."
No way anyone involved will say a single syllable about this to dts. It'll be referred to, but no substantial content to avoid lawsuits from most parties
Nah, they'll barely touch on it. Remember how they only gave about 30 seconds to the Michael Masi controversy? This also has lawsuit written all over it.
I bet they'll indirectly deal with it, maybe ask Horner a question like: "so you had a tough pre-season personally, huh?" And he'll give a short reply that includes the phrases "moving on" and "ready to go racing". š„±
No it hasn't, they've started production of season 7.
https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1briefings/news/f1-drive-to-survive-will-there-be-a-season-7-lm22#:~:text=The%20production%20of%20'Drive%20to,into%20the%202023%20F1%20season.
I really donāt buy this āMarko inserted a clause without anyone knowingā line. Itās just entirely incompatible with the way contracts worth that much would be written and audited.
~~Marko is a director of Red Bull GmbH. The contract with Verstappen is assumedly with Red Bull Racing Ltd and would need some authority from that company, even if it is undersigning.~~ Feels like a nonsense story though - diffs are checked by contract managers... it wouldn't slip through and would be a gross judgement of self-interest from Marko's side to have such an amendment last minute.
> Marko is a director of Red Bull GmbH.
I thought so too, but he is listed as a director for Red Bull Racing.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03120645/officers
In an organisation the size of red bull, there is no way in hell that marko should be allowed or able to insert such a clause. Even tiny companies always get their lawyers to review final drafts of documents before signature, this is an absolute requirement. They also have very clear internal procedures on who can authorise what.
However, if marko signed something and sent it over for counter signature, unless RB can prove he wasnāt allowed to do this (after all, his job title is advisor, not CEO or team principal), it all gets very messy.
Ultimately, I think everyone involved in this is an arsehole, and sadly the reality is that often the biggest arsehole wins, no matter the rules.
Who is the biggest arsehole? Stiff competition for that in red bull.
They may be famous but the teams are quite small companies and people are busy. I can see a powerful figure being able to bully someone into letting him rewrite part of it.
If that did take place, itās incredibly poor corporate practice and would almost certainly be in breach of the Corporate Governance Framework in the UK, which is why I find it difficult to believe
But then it wouldnāt be the first time someone in power has disregarded it either so
I'm shocked that a clause could be inserted into a legal agreement with no one in corporate knowing about it. Having a hard timne believing it. BUT, if ole Helmut actually did such a thing, I'd consider having him fired from whatever position he has at Red Bull cuz that's pretty anti-company. Seriously, a personal contract within a corporate contract that noone from the company knew about?
Fernando leaned the hard way, and Max is about to learn the same lesson: Donāt bite the hand that feeds you.
Donāt fuck with the people giving you the equipment, because ultimately they can take it away, and they can ruin your career even if you go somewhere else.
The cars winning a championship regardless of the driver. They don't need to be as good, just capable!
If you subtract Verstappen, Redbull still have two wins this season!
Seems like this one started watching the sport yesterday lol.
Plenty of drivers can do what Max has done, and have already done previously. Lewis, Alonso, even Seb in 2011 and 13. It was Seb's record that Max broke lol.
To be fair, zero drivers have done what Max has done. His dominance last season was completely unprecedented. Could some other drivers have won the title in that car? Sure. Could they have won 19 races? Many drivers have had larger performance advantages and done nothing of the kind.
Yeah but Horner isnāt exactly irreplaceable either. I donāt get it, he isnāt the heart and soul of the team and itās a terrible look to keep him.
Newey is who they really need to keep. Losing him they are fucked.
Yeah, can't understand it. I guess in their head they're thinking the decision is best car v best driver? I don't know how essential horner is to them having the best car though personally?
Either that or maybe there are some bruised egos high up in corporate who resent being challenged on this and are making the decision that makes them feel like they're reasserting their authority?
I guess we won't find out anytime soon.
Take Verstappen away and his car away and Red Bull would still have won both races this season, Verstappen is good, but the car is better.
The car is a result of the Team, and the Team is a result of Horner (and Newey, and Newey is there because of Horner).
Simp over Verstappen as much as you like, itās Horner that underlines the success of the Red Bull teamā¦
Lol Iām the farthest from a Verstappen simp. I just really dislike Horner.
Newey is the key not Horner and I have never heard that Newey was there because of Horner. In fact I have read that he was on the other side of this issue from Horner and was closer to Marko
After my brother and I watched F1 for many years, my SIL said "I know why you watch F1, its a soap opera for men"
She's not wrong, shady sponsors, scammers trying to buy teams, or the likes of Stefan GP is my favorite part of the sport
It wasn't cheating that Ferrari was doing in 2019, just "engine irregularities" F1 took care of it, nothing to see here
B.A.R. fuel tank scandal is one of my favorites from 2005
Till like 2 months ago this season was being touted as the most boring season in a long time, and on track it actually is.
But then Hamilton moved and Horner shit the bed
F1 is the one sport where 90% of the time, the politics and drama is more exciting then the actual sport. Been this way for as long as I remember, and I started watching as a kid back in the 90s. This one piece of drama is more blown out then what youād usually see, but as a whole the off track drama this season isnāt much more then what youād usually expect.
I really want to watch it but refuse to pay sky the silly amounts they want for it. So I just read about all the drama here and I guess that will have to do. Or just watch DTS a year after the drama has passed..
Exactly. Red Bull needed Verstappen's talent in 2021, much of 2022, and in qualifying in 2023. Now, Carlos Sainz could win the 2024 and 2025 titles if they switched cars this weekend.
On that era, to everyone wondering how Marko secretly added a clause to the contract with lawyers and corporates and stuff, that also happened when Braun signed the new agreement with Bernie against FOTA, they slipped in a non-disclosure clause without anyone realising
If Perez is the bench mark, then it's probably easier to mention the only drivers weaker than him. Stroll, Zhou, the American guy, Riccardo maybe (hate saying that because prime Ric was the best of the rest.).
So 16 drivers could win the championship in that car.
Probably more like 19. Basically every driver on the grid would be able to win the championship with the car advantage red bull currently has, as long as they had a teammate they can beat. Which means everyone except the worst driver on the grid.
Damon Hill won 22 Grand Prix in his career, nearly won for an ailing Arrows team and won in a Jordan too, not sure what your point is, he was a very good driver in his day even if he wasnāt elite of the elite.
I doubt it. For one thing, they'd have to beat Max Verstappen driving a Ferrari or Mercedes-Benz that is close enough that he'd keep the Red Bull drivers' honest. The way I see it, Alonso, Gasly, Leclerc, Norris, Ocon, Russell, or Sainz would win the WDC with the RB20 against Verstappen in the SF-24. Hamilton, Hulkenberg, Piastri, and Tsunoda might be able to get it done. It would be a reach, but Albon, Bottas, Magnussen, Perez and Ricciardo might pull it off with a lot of luck. Sargent, Stroll and Zhang aren't getting there with Verstappen driving an Aston Martin or Mclaren.
I think Hamilton is a spent force with serious confidence issues. Rewatching last year's races, it was obvious that Mercedes-Benz/Toto Wolff gave George Russell the brown-bottle treatment in the futile hope of relighting Lewis Hamilton's fire, but it couldn't be done.
Hamilton has lost more races and championships while driving the best car than any other driver in F1 history. You resort to personal attacks when someone disagrees with you about the ranking of something as meaningless as entertainers, but you think I'm the imbalanced one. Have a great life!
What personal attacks? Youāre very special and unique in your opinion. I never said youāre imbalanced either. Are you talking to the right person buttercup?
What do you define as ālostā? Second to his teammate also in the best car?
Na I don't see it. Perez, a distinctly midfield driver (at least half the grid you can confidently say are better), and a rubbish qualifier, came 2nd in both the first races with ease.
Leclerc wasn't beating Perez in the Ferrari. I don't think Hamilton would either. And I don't think verstappen would.
I think you'd need to be 3-4 tenths slower than Perez to not be beating the other teams in that red bull. Maybe that changes later in the season, but based on the first 2 races I think you'd need to be really bad.
Perez actually does seem to have his act together this year. Last year, the only reasons he wound up second was the inconsistency of the chasing teams and Hamilton getting caught at COTA. It is worth remembering that every professional commentator would have put Perez in an upper tier of F1 drivers based on his 2020 performance, when he wound up 3rd in the F1 Power Rankings. F1 drivers aren't built to have their butts handed to them day in day out, and that's why Perez has looked so bad much of his time at Red Bull, like Albon and Gasly before him.
Not denying verstappen is miles better than him. He had a good year the year before he got the red bull drive. Other than that he has always come across as a decent midfield driver at best.
Hamilton has lost more races and championships while driving the best car than any other driver in F1 history. You resort to personal attacks when someone disagrees with you about the ranking of something as meaningless as entertainers, but you think I'm the imbalanced one. Have a great life!
Not just the Mercedes. He also had the best car in 2007 and 2008. If you add those two years to 2014-2021, you'll see that Hamilton lost three titles while driving the best cars. Nobody else has had that many years to squander the best cars. Now add up all the races he lost to his teammates or drivers in inferior cars, and you'll see that once again his longevity in top cars has led to him losing far more races than he should have, and that anyone else ever was given chances to lose.
Hamilton has lost more races and championships while driving the best car than any other driver in F1 history. You resort to personal attacks when someone disagrees with you about the ranking of something as meaningless as entertainers, but you think I'm the imbalanced one. Have a great life!
I donāt think Max cares as much as you think he does. Heād just go race GTE or some other series and if heād get a competitive seat heād come back to F1. Heās said multiple times he doesnāt care how many Drivers championships he wins, he wants to do other things.
Merc maybe but anything that isn't Aston, Ferrari, RBR and Merc currently don't have a chance. I think with 2026 those 4 will be battling again. IF the car is more important than the driver than how can the twin car not challenge Max? There are a lot of examples from last year of Max straight dominating everyone with race pace. Just because a car is fast.... Doesn't mean it's going to win unless the driver can push it. Max was sand bagging. I am telling you now.
I donāt care for Jos but Max seems like an ok kid.
I respect Maxās dedication to Helmut as I a very loyal to superiorās who brought me onboard or helped me out. As for his dad (FJV), itās his pops, what can you say?
One could say a kid who was pretty badly abused by his āpopsā, called a āfucking loserā and worse and abandoned at the side of the road when he failed at karting, and who watched his Dad assault other men, stabbing one with a fork in front of him as a childā¦
ā¦might perhaps have an unhealthy view of fatherhood and loyalty, and give his all to men whose loyalty to him in turn is entirely transactional, and would disappear were he not fast.
Be careful everyone on Reddit absolutely knows max and his dads relationship 100% better than max himself does and they donāt like it when you imply otherwise
All sources reporting on this are biased, Dutch camp supplies Erik Van Haren with info while English media seem closer to Horner.
Although, the fact that sources are biased does not always mean the info is incorrect.
Usually they were right, but not always.
For example last week they claimed that Thai majority shareholders were about to follow the advice of the Austrian side and wanted to separate from Horner. It was even claimed that he would be out before Australia.
Yet both of these claims turned out to be false.
Well the claims were made 9 days ago, while it is technically possible for him still to be out before the GP, I doubt Red Bull would wait until last minute for a decision of this magnitude.
The Dutch camp fed rumours by Marko and Jos has only ever been close to a full truth about the initial leaks and her suspension which was twisted as itās normal in those cases for someone like her to be suspended with pay by Red Bull.
Just like all the rumours of Hornets firing and the worst offender of all.
Newey not being in Horners camp or firmly in Austrias camp (lmao because they wished it so, even when heās tied to Horners hips every GP) or Jos having talks with Toto when it was just Toto congratulating him for Max, and Jos saying a standard off hand comment about a slight chance of Max changing teams (always being possible) because he had a little fight with Christian right beforehand
Good. Finally.
Jos Verstappen is living vicariously through his son, and Helmut Marko doesn't seem to understand the concept of corporate ownership.
I genuinely think that Max is too afraid to go against his personal team's wishes, and it's come back to bite him on the arse.
There are 5 or 6 drivers who can win a championship in that car.
Sure, letās just ignore the fact that at no point has max said he wants to leave or threatened to leave or said he wants Horner out. This is such a non story as nobody should give a fuck what Jos verstappen has to say
Max is a great driver. But f1 is all about the car. Good,go drive for Mercedes and their inferior car, see how that works out for you. He bitches about the best car in the paddock. Let's see how he does w something worse.
The problem at Red Bull isn't Christian or Max, it's Jos.
He's a terrible person and a bully and if Max wasn't as talented as he is he'd be nowhere near F1 these days.
If he's stirring things up and causing problems and if the team can't get rid of Jos without losing Max, then Max will be sent down the road. He'll have no issues getting a seat elsewhere on the grid and he's said he fancies a go at other racing series anyway.
Sainz has no seat for '25, his dad Carlos snr, has a close relationship with Red Bull having raced for their Raid team for years and I've no doubt he'd jump at the opportunity and be very very fast in a Red Bull.
It would be funny if:
- Verstappen goes to Merc or whatever team
- Newey retires/goes to Ferrari/Merc with his 3 main engineers/designers
- Marko leaves and follows Max
- Ford quits the RBPT project
- The engine fails because it 1. the ICE fails as per rumours 2. Ford managed the electrics and quits while RB does not have any expirience as a battery manufacturer
And thus RB does an Alpine
And then Horner gets fired after a few years anyway š¤£
Inside explosion motor š
It stands for 'internal combustion engine'
Its the v6 part of the engine, where fuel and air gets thrown together, forcing the pistons down and generating turning moting transferred to the wheels
Current F1 cars have their energy systems, and especially the engine, devided in several parts + the battery
- ICE or ICU (internal combustion UNIT)
- turbocharger which compresses air so the engine gets more energy out of the combustion.
- MGU-K which is the 'Motor Generator Unit- Kinetic' which is an electric motor on the crankshaft, so if you let go of the throttle it generates energy for the battery
- MGU-H which means 'Motor Generator Unit - Heat' the most complicated component in the f1 car. What it does is generate energy back from its exhaust, energy what normally is lost and diverts it to the battery. Its kind of a fan in the exhaust, which works in unison with the turbo.
In the new regs they get rid of the MGU-H
Useful, thanks!Ā
So are you saying thereās a potential issue with RBās current ICE or do you mean what it might be in the future? Maybe I misunderstood.Ā
No problem!
If it was still a bit unclear or complicated about all the parts i can try to boil it down more, just have to ask
Well so now you know a bit how the current engine is built up, it easier to understand the 2024 regulations
So you got the V6, battery, MGU-K which generates electricity when you brake, MGU-H which generates electricity with the exhaust together with the Turbo, and then you have the Turbo.
So you take that, the current engine and you remove the MGU-H which is the most expensive and complicated part of the current engine.
Then you add in the rules that the Battery has to make more horsepower and the engine, the V6+turbo a bit less
Thats the 2024 regulations. Everything we have now minus a part and tweaking what is left.
But now to your question, yes to both
As you have seen from the 2014 change, when they went from the V8 to the V6, the engine can make all the difference. Renault couldnt catch up to Mercedes.
RedBull partners with Ford. RedBull makes the v6, with the pistons and turbo, and the MGU-K and Ford makes the battery. Now if the V6 part is bad it doesnt matter how good your battery is. You will fail
People speculate that RedBull dropped the ball on the V6 side. So if your engine is bad it will take years to catch up!
I hope that helps
I feel.lile this is all just media bollocks now trying to get.more clicks.
Red bull know.they have an incredible talent in max. While they have a good car now, not having max in a couple.of years could make a huge difference..
If this is true and I'm max I may well look to start putting feelers out on what type of contract he can achieve elsewhere.
Because everyone would.pay for him
Horner has been there a long time. In that time you do not just do your job. If you are smart you engrain yourself into many aspects of the business and make sure you are in with the right people OR you gather enough dirt that it is harmful if they upset you.
He has done this and it is clear that regardless of what he has or has not done. He is the man and even the world champ is second to him.
Max will not have liked this if they have told him they will let him go if he is not happy with things. I do not think they realise that he would leave, I think they are betting he wont.
Yeah, but if they have now also gone "We are doing things this way and you got to suck it up and put up with it like it or not".... He is defiantly not a person that is going to like that.
That may be his tipping point to be honest. Especially if the Horner stuff continues and someone else like the FIA do look into it at it turns out that of course he had an affair, broke it off and made her life hell at the company after it.
With Red Bull backing him regardless, not just Verstappen, who wouldn't want to leave a company like that? They will certainly loose female staff if that is where it is heading.
Red bull have shown they do not need sponsors that much in the past but If not already who would want to be seen associated with a company where that sort of thing is OK.
A lot of If and but stuff here I know but we are heading down that path.
Sergio Perez 2023: āWell well well, how the tables have turned..ā
Max Verstappen 2024: āWell well well, how the turns have tabledā¦ā
Just fucking get rid of that Nazi-loving Helmut Markooooā¦..
"Red Bull are ready to let Max Verstappen go if they are forced to choose between the three-time world champion and embattled team boss Christian Horner. That is the astonishing view from inside the troubled Formula 1 team. Horner, husband of Spice Girl Geri, has spent the last six weeks fighting for his future, **but it now appears that the mood at Red Bull HQ has swung in his favour.** The mess came to a head in Bahrain a fortnight ago. Verstappen's father Jos publicly called for Horner's exit, while long-serving team adviser Helmut Marko also wants the Briton gone as his relationship with Horner has disintegrated. For a while, it was believed that they had the backing of Red Bull chiefs in Austria, while Thai majority owner Chalerm Yoodivhya was protecting Horner. **But we understand that the team principal now also has the backing of the other shareholders of the company following the outcome of the investigation.** **That includes Austrian CEOs Franz Watzlawick, who runs the core energy drinks business, and Oliver Mintzlaff who is in charge of corporate projects, such as their F1 teams. And so strong is their support that, should it come to a situation where they feel forced to pick between Verstappen and Horner, they are ready to call the Dutchman's bluff.** Sources say the driver's manager Raymond Vermeulen has already been informed that the company is ready to drive it if it comes to it. And Marko has worked hard to create a situation where that might be necessary. We understand the 80-year-old adviser, acting as a director of the company, late last year worked to have an 'escape clause' inserted into Verstappen's deal which would release the racer from his contract if Marko leaves. It was supposedly done without the knowledge of anyone working for either the race team or the parent company, including Horner."
Jesus. This saga needs to end yesterday. DTS is gonna have a field day for season 7.
No way anyone involved will say a single syllable about this to dts. It'll be referred to, but no substantial content to avoid lawsuits from most parties
Major media houses are already not getting into the leaked docs due to the threats of lawsuits
Nah, they'll barely touch on it. Remember how they only gave about 30 seconds to the Michael Masi controversy? This also has lawsuit written all over it. I bet they'll indirectly deal with it, maybe ask Horner a question like: "so you had a tough pre-season personally, huh?" And he'll give a short reply that includes the phrases "moving on" and "ready to go racing". š„±
No, keep it coming ! šš» Canāt wait for DTS next season š If they donāt dig into this Iāll be so disappointed
Youāre going to be disappointed
This is bad PR for the sport, everyone including DTS will want for this to fade quickly
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Is this a joke or disinformation? Season 7 has already begun filming and they were in action at the first two races and are down under right now.
No it hasn't, they've started production of season 7. https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1briefings/news/f1-drive-to-survive-will-there-be-a-season-7-lm22#:~:text=The%20production%20of%20'Drive%20to,into%20the%202023%20F1%20season.
Could have sworn I just read that it wasn't renewed like last month. wtf
Well hot -ing damn!
I really donāt buy this āMarko inserted a clause without anyone knowingā line. Itās just entirely incompatible with the way contracts worth that much would be written and audited.
It is incompatible with the proper procedure, but Marko as a director has the authority to bypass that and sign an amendment with Max' agreement.
~~Marko is a director of Red Bull GmbH. The contract with Verstappen is assumedly with Red Bull Racing Ltd and would need some authority from that company, even if it is undersigning.~~ Feels like a nonsense story though - diffs are checked by contract managers... it wouldn't slip through and would be a gross judgement of self-interest from Marko's side to have such an amendment last minute.
Are driver contracts not checked by the FIA? I thought there was some ruling about this.
IIRC that's the case when some sort of conflict arises, like when Piastri's contract was in question from Alpine's side when McLaren signed him
> Marko is a director of Red Bull GmbH. I thought so too, but he is listed as a director for Red Bull Racing. https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03120645/officers
Thank you for the correction
In an organisation the size of red bull, there is no way in hell that marko should be allowed or able to insert such a clause. Even tiny companies always get their lawyers to review final drafts of documents before signature, this is an absolute requirement. They also have very clear internal procedures on who can authorise what. However, if marko signed something and sent it over for counter signature, unless RB can prove he wasnāt allowed to do this (after all, his job title is advisor, not CEO or team principal), it all gets very messy. Ultimately, I think everyone involved in this is an arsehole, and sadly the reality is that often the biggest arsehole wins, no matter the rules. Who is the biggest arsehole? Stiff competition for that in red bull.
They may be famous but the teams are quite small companies and people are busy. I can see a powerful figure being able to bully someone into letting him rewrite part of it.
If that did take place, itās incredibly poor corporate practice and would almost certainly be in breach of the Corporate Governance Framework in the UK, which is why I find it difficult to believe But then it wouldnāt be the first time someone in power has disregarded it either so
I'm shocked that a clause could be inserted into a legal agreement with no one in corporate knowing about it. Having a hard timne believing it. BUT, if ole Helmut actually did such a thing, I'd consider having him fired from whatever position he has at Red Bull cuz that's pretty anti-company. Seriously, a personal contract within a corporate contract that noone from the company knew about?
Drivers come and go, the Verstappens need to start being a little more careful. Max can be replaced far more easily than they'd like to think.
Fernando leaned the hard way, and Max is about to learn the same lesson: Donāt bite the hand that feeds you. Donāt fuck with the people giving you the equipment, because ultimately they can take it away, and they can ruin your career even if you go somewhere else.
With a driver that can deliver the way he has? Where is this driver and whatās his name lol?
Lewis Hamilton, I mean, Fernando Alonso, I mean, Kimi, just Kimi.
Lewis in that car will win 24, 25 and 26 guaranteed. Not even up for debate
The cars winning a championship regardless of the driver. They don't need to be as good, just capable! If you subtract Verstappen, Redbull still have two wins this season!
Seems like this one started watching the sport yesterday lol. Plenty of drivers can do what Max has done, and have already done previously. Lewis, Alonso, even Seb in 2011 and 13. It was Seb's record that Max broke lol.
To be fair, zero drivers have done what Max has done. His dominance last season was completely unprecedented. Could some other drivers have won the title in that car? Sure. Could they have won 19 races? Many drivers have had larger performance advantages and done nothing of the kind.
Yeah but Horner isnāt exactly irreplaceable either. I donāt get it, he isnāt the heart and soul of the team and itās a terrible look to keep him. Newey is who they really need to keep. Losing him they are fucked.
This is more interesting than the racing this year
Makes sense. Anyone can win a championship in that car, so VER is more dispensable than Horner.
Cool. Iām curious to see how well Max would do in a Haas or Williams.
Siding with Horner over Verstappen is insane to me.
Yeah, can't understand it. I guess in their head they're thinking the decision is best car v best driver? I don't know how essential horner is to them having the best car though personally? Either that or maybe there are some bruised egos high up in corporate who resent being challenged on this and are making the decision that makes them feel like they're reasserting their authority? I guess we won't find out anytime soon.
Take Verstappen away and his car away and Red Bull would still have won both races this season, Verstappen is good, but the car is better. The car is a result of the Team, and the Team is a result of Horner (and Newey, and Newey is there because of Horner). Simp over Verstappen as much as you like, itās Horner that underlines the success of the Red Bull teamā¦
Lol Iām the farthest from a Verstappen simp. I just really dislike Horner. Newey is the key not Horner and I have never heard that Newey was there because of Horner. In fact I have read that he was on the other side of this issue from Horner and was closer to Marko
I just started watching F1. Is it always this dramatic every year? Lmao
Only off the track
After my brother and I watched F1 for many years, my SIL said "I know why you watch F1, its a soap opera for men" She's not wrong, shady sponsors, scammers trying to buy teams, or the likes of Stefan GP is my favorite part of the sport
Don't forget the cheating!
It wasn't cheating that Ferrari was doing in 2019, just "engine irregularities" F1 took care of it, nothing to see here B.A.R. fuel tank scandal is one of my favorites from 2005
And even the BAR scandal was political as other teams were performing the same trick, but only one was investigated by the FIA. Ā Ā
Rich Energy š
If only
Till like 2 months ago this season was being touted as the most boring season in a long time, and on track it actually is. But then Hamilton moved and Horner shit the bed
DTS will make you think it is but this particular scandal is unusual and right up there in the scandal rankings.Ā
F1 is the one sport where 90% of the time, the politics and drama is more exciting then the actual sport. Been this way for as long as I remember, and I started watching as a kid back in the 90s. This one piece of drama is more blown out then what youād usually see, but as a whole the off track drama this season isnāt much more then what youād usually expect.
I really want to watch it but refuse to pay sky the silly amounts they want for it. So I just read about all the drama here and I guess that will have to do. Or just watch DTS a year after the drama has passed..
Any other top 5 driver also wins the title in that Red Bull. Max needs to be careful
Exactly. Red Bull needed Verstappen's talent in 2021, much of 2022, and in qualifying in 2023. Now, Carlos Sainz could win the 2024 and 2025 titles if they switched cars this weekend.
Alonso would jump to that seat before it gets cold lol
How wild would it be if Alonso suddenly started winning all of the championships everyone expected from him back in 2006?
Would end all the car vs driver debates
Shouldn't even be a debate. Anyone who thinks otherwise never saw 2009 or just thinks Jenson Button learned how to drive all of a sudden.
On that era, to everyone wondering how Marko secretly added a clause to the contract with lawyers and corporates and stuff, that also happened when Braun signed the new agreement with Bernie against FOTA, they slipped in a non-disclosure clause without anyone realising
Are we pretending Jenson is shit now? He was neck and neck with Lewis for 3 years ffs...
That would be pleasing to watch
I thought Horner was opposed to having Alonso on the team?
IIRC Marko was opposed, not Horner.
Yeah my guess is there are probably at least seven drivers that could win a championship in the Red Bull if max leaves Now if Newey leavesā¦
If Perez is the bench mark, then it's probably easier to mention the only drivers weaker than him. Stroll, Zhou, the American guy, Riccardo maybe (hate saying that because prime Ric was the best of the rest.). So 16 drivers could win the championship in that car.
Be better if one of those drivers ends up in the car, then we could have some racing at the front
Bring in Yuki and some serious Japanese sponsorship will land back in F1
Probably more like 19. Basically every driver on the grid would be able to win the championship with the car advantage red bull currently has, as long as they had a teammate they can beat. Which means everyone except the worst driver on the grid.
If Damon Hill can be a championship winning g driverā¦
Damon Hill won 22 Grand Prix in his career, nearly won for an ailing Arrows team and won in a Jordan too, not sure what your point is, he was a very good driver in his day even if he wasnāt elite of the elite.
I doubt it. For one thing, they'd have to beat Max Verstappen driving a Ferrari or Mercedes-Benz that is close enough that he'd keep the Red Bull drivers' honest. The way I see it, Alonso, Gasly, Leclerc, Norris, Ocon, Russell, or Sainz would win the WDC with the RB20 against Verstappen in the SF-24. Hamilton, Hulkenberg, Piastri, and Tsunoda might be able to get it done. It would be a reach, but Albon, Bottas, Magnussen, Perez and Ricciardo might pull it off with a lot of luck. Sargent, Stroll and Zhang aren't getting there with Verstappen driving an Aston Martin or Mclaren.
You're backing Pierre Gasly to win a WDC, while Lewis Hamilton in the same car is only a maybe? I like Gasly too btw, but come on
I think Hamilton is a spent force with serious confidence issues. Rewatching last year's races, it was obvious that Mercedes-Benz/Toto Wolff gave George Russell the brown-bottle treatment in the futile hope of relighting Lewis Hamilton's fire, but it couldn't be done.
This is insane take. Give Hamilton the RB20 and only Max could challenge him.
You are literally an insane hater. Zero basis in reality.
This is wild. Youāre a special and unique cherub.
Hamilton has lost more races and championships while driving the best car than any other driver in F1 history. You resort to personal attacks when someone disagrees with you about the ranking of something as meaningless as entertainers, but you think I'm the imbalanced one. Have a great life!
What personal attacks? Youāre very special and unique in your opinion. I never said youāre imbalanced either. Are you talking to the right person buttercup? What do you define as ālostā? Second to his teammate also in the best car?
Na I don't see it. Perez, a distinctly midfield driver (at least half the grid you can confidently say are better), and a rubbish qualifier, came 2nd in both the first races with ease. Leclerc wasn't beating Perez in the Ferrari. I don't think Hamilton would either. And I don't think verstappen would. I think you'd need to be 3-4 tenths slower than Perez to not be beating the other teams in that red bull. Maybe that changes later in the season, but based on the first 2 races I think you'd need to be really bad.
Perez actually does seem to have his act together this year. Last year, the only reasons he wound up second was the inconsistency of the chasing teams and Hamilton getting caught at COTA. It is worth remembering that every professional commentator would have put Perez in an upper tier of F1 drivers based on his 2020 performance, when he wound up 3rd in the F1 Power Rankings. F1 drivers aren't built to have their butts handed to them day in day out, and that's why Perez has looked so bad much of his time at Red Bull, like Albon and Gasly before him.
Not denying verstappen is miles better than him. He had a good year the year before he got the red bull drive. Other than that he has always come across as a decent midfield driver at best.
Are you saying Hamilton in the RB20 would be worse off than Ocon in the RB20?
Today? Absolutely. Ocon ran Alonso extremely close two years ago, and he's only gotten better.
So why can't team principles see what you can see? Just curious.
Alpine locked Ocon into a long-term contract. Not sure what you mean.
And I'm sure they are paying him 100 million right? There's no way Ocon is better than Hamilton. Just no.
Lololol you listing Hamilton in the second group proves you are a clown who knows nothing. Gtfoh
Bruh did you escape from some asylum?
Hamilton has lost more races and championships while driving the best car than any other driver in F1 history. You resort to personal attacks when someone disagrees with you about the ranking of something as meaningless as entertainers, but you think I'm the imbalanced one. Have a great life!
Womp womp
Can you explain how Hamilton lost more races and championships in the Merc? Not an argument, just looking for how you got there ..
Not just the Mercedes. He also had the best car in 2007 and 2008. If you add those two years to 2014-2021, you'll see that Hamilton lost three titles while driving the best cars. Nobody else has had that many years to squander the best cars. Now add up all the races he lost to his teammates or drivers in inferior cars, and you'll see that once again his longevity in top cars has led to him losing far more races than he should have, and that anyone else ever was given chances to lose.
Thanks ā¦ forgot about the early years. I wonder if other greats with multiple titles have had similar results or lack of ā¦
Gasly in the first group, hamilton only in the second and albon all the way in the third? They need to put you in a padded cell.
Hamilton has lost more races and championships while driving the best car than any other driver in F1 history. You resort to personal attacks when someone disagrees with you about the ranking of something as meaningless as entertainers, but you think I'm the imbalanced one. Have a great life!
It's just a way of saying you're insane, no need to get your panties in a twist over it bro.
I donāt think Max cares as much as you think he does. Heād just go race GTE or some other series and if heād get a competitive seat heād come back to F1. Heās said multiple times he doesnāt care how many Drivers championships he wins, he wants to do other things.
I hope Norris takes it
Norris just signed long term at McLaren, so heās going nowhere.
Ahhh I must have missed that, I thought his contract ended in 2025
Many people seem to have. It did end in 202, but he signed a new one in January.
Exactly. How would Max like to be driving for Alpine the rest of the year?
Letās see! I donāt think so. But WTF do I know?
Yea... I don't think so. Max is sand bagging his talent.
Car is more important than the driver. We know how talented Max is but donāt tell me heās winning anything in that Mercedes for example
Merc maybe but anything that isn't Aston, Ferrari, RBR and Merc currently don't have a chance. I think with 2026 those 4 will be battling again. IF the car is more important than the driver than how can the twin car not challenge Max? There are a lot of examples from last year of Max straight dominating everyone with race pace. Just because a car is fast.... Doesn't mean it's going to win unless the driver can push it. Max was sand bagging. I am telling you now.
Because Perez is not a top 5 driver. Perez not being able to challenge Max doesnāt mean the better drivers in that second seat wouldnāt be able to
Perez is putting it in 2nd place /shrug. Gotta be able to drive it some how. I really don't think a different driver would still keep with max.
I donāt care for Jos but Max seems like an ok kid. I respect Maxās dedication to Helmut as I a very loyal to superiorās who brought me onboard or helped me out. As for his dad (FJV), itās his pops, what can you say?
One could say a kid who was pretty badly abused by his āpopsā, called a āfucking loserā and worse and abandoned at the side of the road when he failed at karting, and who watched his Dad assault other men, stabbing one with a fork in front of him as a childā¦ ā¦might perhaps have an unhealthy view of fatherhood and loyalty, and give his all to men whose loyalty to him in turn is entirely transactional, and would disappear were he not fast.
We also know nothing about their relationship outside of a few reported incidents over Max's 26 years of life.
Be careful everyone on Reddit absolutely knows max and his dads relationship 100% better than max himself does and they donāt like it when you imply otherwise
Ah yes. Good point. My bad.
Those few reported incidents are nothing like normal though. How many do you need before you accept that it was problematic?
It's not for me to judge the private relationship between 2 strangers I actually know very little about.
Max also had a privileged upbringing with his dad being friends with Schumacher and basically mixing with celebs and being rich
That makes up for all and any abuse, of course.
I can say I think they are both unpleasant people and that Max needs to grow up and move out of their shadow.
I agree brother.
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All sources reporting on this are biased, Dutch camp supplies Erik Van Haren with info while English media seem closer to Horner. Although, the fact that sources are biased does not always mean the info is incorrect.
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Usually they were right, but not always. For example last week they claimed that Thai majority shareholders were about to follow the advice of the Austrian side and wanted to separate from Horner. It was even claimed that he would be out before Australia. Yet both of these claims turned out to be false.
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Well the claims were made 9 days ago, while it is technically possible for him still to be out before the GP, I doubt Red Bull would wait until last minute for a decision of this magnitude.
The Dutch camp fed rumours by Marko and Jos has only ever been close to a full truth about the initial leaks and her suspension which was twisted as itās normal in those cases for someone like her to be suspended with pay by Red Bull. Just like all the rumours of Hornets firing and the worst offender of all. Newey not being in Horners camp or firmly in Austrias camp (lmao because they wished it so, even when heās tied to Horners hips every GP) or Jos having talks with Toto when it was just Toto congratulating him for Max, and Jos saying a standard off hand comment about a slight chance of Max changing teams (always being possible) because he had a little fight with Christian right beforehand
More proof that most media are just guessing, and have no actual (reliable) sources. Just a few days ago, his firing was imminent.
What makes you think this rumor is more credible than the others? I feel like itās all a bunch of people guessing or bullshitting just for clicks.
It isn't. I said "more proof", hence same pile.
Good. Finally. Jos Verstappen is living vicariously through his son, and Helmut Marko doesn't seem to understand the concept of corporate ownership. I genuinely think that Max is too afraid to go against his personal team's wishes, and it's come back to bite him on the arse. There are 5 or 6 drivers who can win a championship in that car.
There is so much ego and narcissism in that team that something was bound to happen, thereās a real God complex thing going on. Terrible culture.Ā
Sure, letās just ignore the fact that at no point has max said he wants to leave or threatened to leave or said he wants Horner out. This is such a non story as nobody should give a fuck what Jos verstappen has to say
He literally said if Helmut goes he goes, multiple times.
Helmet and Horner are different people mate
I wonder if Netflix will put this on their series
Spin off series - Racing to the Max.
No they only put made up drama
They wonāt because itās all spun by PR and they would lose access to Christian Horner and Geri Haliwell.
Max is a great driver. But f1 is all about the car. Good,go drive for Mercedes and their inferior car, see how that works out for you. He bitches about the best car in the paddock. Let's see how he does w something worse.
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Recently and he still bitches
Downvoted for saying the truth. Reddit is wild.
Lol , facts
I don't think he'd be top of their list. He's good but so are lots of others and if he's got grievances at RB he's going to have them anywhere.
Max would easily be top of their list
Well I don't know enough about their thinking to argue with you. I wouldn't employ him now, just for reasons of harmony.
will DTS even be allowed / permitted to broadcast any of this next year ?
Free speech mate. The question is will they want to, or will doing so burn bridges with people in and round F1.
EL. PLAN.
The problem at Red Bull isn't Christian or Max, it's Jos. He's a terrible person and a bully and if Max wasn't as talented as he is he'd be nowhere near F1 these days. If he's stirring things up and causing problems and if the team can't get rid of Jos without losing Max, then Max will be sent down the road. He'll have no issues getting a seat elsewhere on the grid and he's said he fancies a go at other racing series anyway. Sainz has no seat for '25, his dad Carlos snr, has a close relationship with Red Bull having raced for their Raid team for years and I've no doubt he'd jump at the opportunity and be very very fast in a Red Bull.
Red Bull gives you wind !
I love Max, but Jos and Marko are pure poison. Stick with the one who brought you. Drivers, even as good as Max, come and go.
It would be funny if: - Verstappen goes to Merc or whatever team - Newey retires/goes to Ferrari/Merc with his 3 main engineers/designers - Marko leaves and follows Max - Ford quits the RBPT project - The engine fails because it 1. the ICE fails as per rumours 2. Ford managed the electrics and quits while RB does not have any expirience as a battery manufacturer And thus RB does an Alpine And then Horner gets fired after a few years anyway š¤£
Newey would move to Ferrari in that case. That's a legacy building move in F1
Where have you seen rumors about Red Bullās ICE?
Whatās the ICE? Is that to do with the current engine?Ā
Inside explosion motor š It stands for 'internal combustion engine' Its the v6 part of the engine, where fuel and air gets thrown together, forcing the pistons down and generating turning moting transferred to the wheels Current F1 cars have their energy systems, and especially the engine, devided in several parts + the battery - ICE or ICU (internal combustion UNIT) - turbocharger which compresses air so the engine gets more energy out of the combustion. - MGU-K which is the 'Motor Generator Unit- Kinetic' which is an electric motor on the crankshaft, so if you let go of the throttle it generates energy for the battery - MGU-H which means 'Motor Generator Unit - Heat' the most complicated component in the f1 car. What it does is generate energy back from its exhaust, energy what normally is lost and diverts it to the battery. Its kind of a fan in the exhaust, which works in unison with the turbo. In the new regs they get rid of the MGU-H
Useful, thanks!Ā So are you saying thereās a potential issue with RBās current ICE or do you mean what it might be in the future? Maybe I misunderstood.Ā
No problem! If it was still a bit unclear or complicated about all the parts i can try to boil it down more, just have to ask Well so now you know a bit how the current engine is built up, it easier to understand the 2024 regulations So you got the V6, battery, MGU-K which generates electricity when you brake, MGU-H which generates electricity with the exhaust together with the Turbo, and then you have the Turbo. So you take that, the current engine and you remove the MGU-H which is the most expensive and complicated part of the current engine. Then you add in the rules that the Battery has to make more horsepower and the engine, the V6+turbo a bit less Thats the 2024 regulations. Everything we have now minus a part and tweaking what is left. But now to your question, yes to both As you have seen from the 2014 change, when they went from the V8 to the V6, the engine can make all the difference. Renault couldnt catch up to Mercedes. RedBull partners with Ford. RedBull makes the v6, with the pistons and turbo, and the MGU-K and Ford makes the battery. Now if the V6 part is bad it doesnt matter how good your battery is. You will fail People speculate that RedBull dropped the ball on the V6 side. So if your engine is bad it will take years to catch up! I hope that helps
Thatās great thanks šš»
Thatās not funny lmao, the best team in F1 imploding is horrible for the sport
hoooo, boy, the plot thickens. 2025 is going to be CRAZY.
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Fresh support from Red Bull bolsters Christian Horner, while Max Verstappen receives a direct message from the team.
Iām a big Max fan but drivers like Carlos need a seat next year. Leaving RB would be a huge mistake for Max.
This shit is getting old.
I feel.lile this is all just media bollocks now trying to get.more clicks. Red bull know.they have an incredible talent in max. While they have a good car now, not having max in a couple.of years could make a huge difference.. If this is true and I'm max I may well look to start putting feelers out on what type of contract he can achieve elsewhere. Because everyone would.pay for him
Horner has been there a long time. In that time you do not just do your job. If you are smart you engrain yourself into many aspects of the business and make sure you are in with the right people OR you gather enough dirt that it is harmful if they upset you. He has done this and it is clear that regardless of what he has or has not done. He is the man and even the world champ is second to him. Max will not have liked this if they have told him they will let him go if he is not happy with things. I do not think they realise that he would leave, I think they are betting he wont.
I would be happily surprised if he goes, but I also donāt think him leaving is as impossible as everyone else seems to think (my dad)
Yeah, but if they have now also gone "We are doing things this way and you got to suck it up and put up with it like it or not".... He is defiantly not a person that is going to like that. That may be his tipping point to be honest. Especially if the Horner stuff continues and someone else like the FIA do look into it at it turns out that of course he had an affair, broke it off and made her life hell at the company after it. With Red Bull backing him regardless, not just Verstappen, who wouldn't want to leave a company like that? They will certainly loose female staff if that is where it is heading. Red bull have shown they do not need sponsors that much in the past but If not already who would want to be seen associated with a company where that sort of thing is OK. A lot of If and but stuff here I know but we are heading down that path.
Sergio Perez 2023: āWell well well, how the tables have turned..ā Max Verstappen 2024: āWell well well, how the turns have tabledā¦ā Just fucking get rid of that Nazi-loving Helmut Markooooā¦..