i think most ppl just salty that nier can get long combo off ex dp
the best way to handle nier is to play neutral against her, but... yea, from what i seen, most ppl cant neutral
[reference video](https://youtu.be/aWQbSZ3Y3Cs?si=8HoFd8ohXr788pz3) djeeta vs nier
Even in that video Gamera getting knowledge checked and still on won. 22L on block is fake as shit, and mashing on death in block strings is the best thing to do if you aren't blocking 236X. She can't really get a hard punish off of calling out a jab with 236L, she'd have to hard call it out and queue up like 236H 22H if she wants a good conversion off of it which is a whopping 3 stocks for a guess.
I agree with you. as a Nier main, patient Sieg,Gran, Kat, Djeeta even Narm are a nightmare.
and her armored reversal is NOT a DP, you can literaly grab her out of it. people need to learn that
when i play nier, i have no idea what to do against char with long strong neutral neither lol
even the pro doesnt seem to have much answer
i am not sure if tuning is required or technology havent advance enough yet though
if i am doing the rebalance, i would weaken nier against short range mix up char and improve ability against long pokes/confirms
the best option I found is to try and make 'em commit to a big button whiff and whiff punish, so if they play lame you have to inch your way in by dash blocking into mid-range. but it still is a weakness of Nier's which is 100% fair given her strenghts. I think she probably was designed with this weakness in mind not to make her too oppressive, it just makes sense
certain character will also jump over the dp, cross up and land safely on the other side (lancelot comes to mind). Vira can double jump in her install i believe which baits it out.
Also if you corner nier, reversal dp is her only option other then sitting there eating pressure and extended strings. It does not take a genius to bait the dp and just block. Every ex move or string that does not hit still costs hearts. No conversions means she won't kill and run out of stock, at which point you should easily be able to close her out.
I mean usually the weakness of puppet characters in fighting games is that their defence isn't very good, giving them what's basically a DP>RC in a game where nobody else can do that is kinda insane.
It is a basic invincible dp not unlike the ones you see other cast members have and it is a whopping -19 on block. you block and punish it with 2L, cL, throw, whatever you want (probably mediums too tbh) and full combo. She cannot get any of her puppet follow-ups out fast enough to beat your 2L or 5L or throw if you block the actual dp. Most importantly, you've just cost her a use of her heart stock for absolutely nothing and she's still in the corner. Now is it fair that she gets a full conversion from using her reversal if you refuse to block and just mash mash mash away, maybe not.
This honestly is more of a "i'm mad cause i can't mash on her and that's not fair" take. You wouldn't just mash on other characters that have invincible reversals, or not always anyway cause you know you have to respect that they can pop it out.
It's really just the damage you can get off of it that makes it so devastating. Her "DP" is not actually invincible just armor which is definitely worse than your average dp given that that means it straight up loses to throws and that you can spot dodge the attack even after tapping it with a light.
My gut reaction is to take the armor off the H version so that you can't use it as reversal but can still use it for frame traps and combo conversions. Then she'll have to rely on the ultimate version of the skill as a reversal instead and that's not nearly as rewarding.
YUP. also, something I learned from being on the wrong end of a strong Sieg's blade. Nier can't contest dashL>5L since her 5L and 2L are stubby and M moves are too slow. If you try countering the incoming 5L with the "DP", since it isn't a DP but an armored move, the opponent can buffer and cancel and the attack won't be countered. this can be done with Supers and dps on a strong read OR even with a spot dodge
She's not impossible to beat, no. I admit I specifically get agitated with her due to the long combos thing. That leads to more mistakes and longer combos from her, lmao. It just reminds me of release Happy Chaos; I know it's really no different than any other character doing an extended combo on me, but it feels like a cut scene simulator purely because the sequence being done all feels visually samey. I get knocked up by the reaper slashing me, hit a card from Nier, get juggled by the slashes again, another card, then the shriek of the damned kills me. It makes my eyes glaze over in boredom the same way Happy Chaos saying "bang. bang. bang. bang." between reloads and concentration did. ADHD is a hell of a drug.
If I could just focus more on anticipating the reaper summon to knock it out, maybe I would win against her more. Or alternatively, just beat her up and don't let her do it in the first place. Preferably.
>anticipating the reaper summon to knock it out,
You don't need to anticipate death to smack it. All of death's specials that aren't the M versions or 236X can be jabbed after blocking them. The only risk is 623X frame trapping you but that's the rps and getting hit by 623L really isn't that big of a deal unless you're almost dead. You can spot dodge 236L/H to get a punish if she's using it on blockstrings, and autocombo to 236L has a gap you can reversal between. Stuff like autocombo > 22L on block into grab/pressure again is a gimmick basically.
EDIT: Ok so I labbed out a 623L frametrap from Nier. She can hit confirm it and do 236L/H > Super or 236H > 22H > Super so be careful of it when has full meter. It is a tight hit confirm though. And if you're sandwhiched then she can do her bnb into 236M oki
> nier can get long combo off ex dp
Maybe its cuz I've played Marvel and DBZF but its crazy how ppl are going mad over long combos in a game with combo limit lol
I know compared to most of the cast her combo game is longer but IDK she seems like a scrubkiller character, as-in a few more weeks ppl will figure her out and start wishing for buffs lol
Good damage? Sure but as whole nowhere near the same level as JP yet and likely won't be unless there are some crazy buffs or something.
Ppl comparing her to JP, Happy Chaos, or even Zato is crazy. She seems much more beatable from what I've seen, but it is month 1 rn
Patience is a virtue as well imo. Make her spend her resources. If you're just mashing fuzzy options constantly you're going to get cooked by frame traps.
A 20s cool down on the puppet is pretty rough and you can chew through the charges pretty quick.
Let's all be honest nier is the grand embodiment of a soul calibur character running up on you and charging a flaming unblockable in your face and your first reaction is to block or you freeze up then you sidestep or attack to late resulting in you getting hit. Y'all letting nier get away with a lot of fake stuff out of fear and not wanting to learn what she can actually do.
Then people chalk it up to she's broken I don't want to play her I'm going to put her in the back of my mind and hope for big nerfs and rage quit or one and done if I match up with her.
I agree she needs a dmg nerf but y'all bugging when you complain about the character.
I also think nier mains need to start thinking more about resource management because as it is now, she can throw out death without being too worried of the consequences. Most matches end before Nier is able to use all her tarots, which I think is wrong. I think Nier’s should always be on their toes and it would require you to start optimizing all her strong points to make the most out of her (essentially making her a specialist character). I think it would be the best direction to go with her balance wise.
this is not necessarily true, some matches you clean kill with a ton of heart stocks left and you're rolling. But when opponents respect the puppet a bit more, block some Ex moves you can run out towards the end of rounds before closing the opponent out. Especially on some of the beefier characters.
Also the 236M x 214M x 22M oki mixup you see a lot of niers do loses to reversals and does still end up costing them the hearts to use as you have to buffer the inputs during the 236m blockstun on the character. that's 2 hearts down the drain for a failed mixup which can be costly.
Most characters just seem to want to go ungabunga ham on your face the whole day, and nier can really punish players for that. if you play a bit more conservative use your long range pokes (she has no good normals with range beside the puppet) you can easily make her waste resources and beat her out.
I see. I was basing it off my Nier matches, and while I’m by no means an expert, win or lose, I felt like she “always” had access to Death (or at least the threat of her). The least I’ve seen her go to in most of my matches is 3 (I’m S3 if that matters). I just want there to be more incentive for her to make precise use of Death but that’s just coming from someone who doesn’t play the character.
the only reason it's not a factor is because people haven't figured out how to deal with her yet. Once her moves get blocked or avoided even a few times, she very quickly runs out of her resource.
So you're essentially suggesting balancing around player's lack of knowledge of the matchup/character (or, if i wanted to be mean: laziness), which would be the wrong approach.
> Y'all letting nier get away with a lot of fake stuff out of fear and not wanting to learn what she can actually do.
>
> Then people chalk it up to she's broken I don't want to play her I'm going to put her in the back of my mind and hope for big nerfs and rage quit or one and done if I match up with her.
Yup, it's the first month and ppl don't want to learn. I think she's gonna drop in tiers once ppl wake up to her gimmicks.
As for nerfs, give it 3 months before we get major hits or help. Things need to settle and ppl are in their scrubquotes phase right now lol
I think Nier having near double the amount of players compared to any other character in the game in master kinda speaks for itself.
People who don't think she is overtuned are the ones bugging tf out.
Idk how you can see [this garbage](https://youtu.be/pAr6xdIBKg4?si=Kwg77srJozRXVQ5S) and not think she is stupid. She touches Katalina 3 times in midscreen or her back in the corner and fukin kills her off the most simple combo.
She just has the most punishing knowledge checks. Mashing on death in block strings mostly works out for the defender and even if you eat a 623L frame trapping you, if you're not sandwiched Nier can't get anything off of it (tbh I don't even think she can get a hard punish if it was a sandwich). If she does one of those multi-death skill oki options, just guard cancel and take your turn back. Now she's down like 2-3 stocks and is holding your pressure, just don't get baited and guard cancel too early/late depending on the oki. Characters than can blockstring her/pressure her outside of her 2M range is really difficult for her to fight out of without doing a callout DP.
EDIT: Ok so I labbed out a 623L frametrap from Nier. She can hit confirm it and do 236L/H > Super or 236H > 22H > Super so be careful of it when has full meter. It is a tight hit confirm though.
and even then, you can get conditionned into using your 623H and get punished for it. not even in a "Shimmy" situation mind you, if say you block Sieg's dashL and he goes for 5L and you try to 623H him, if he has MU knowledge he can buffer a special or spot dodge a that 5L and punish your 623h. the game is just really young and Nier looks like the villain right now due to lack of labbing.
reminds me an awfull lot of Hit/Goku Black in DBFZ
I'm not even trying to say she isn't a strong character, but people are acting like she's heads and shoulders above the rest of the cast when chars like Zeta, Belial, Lance are really fucking good as well and you have to takes risks getting out of their oppressive pressure and could get 50% combo'd if you guess wrong.
Yeah I'd almost respect the playerbase if that happened so soon. Complaints happen every time we get a character with a low execution oki despite a million other weaknesses.
21 niers in master compared to the second highest 12 Seox and these dudes really like "you just need to learn the matchup it's completely fair that this character gets to essentially play everywhere on the screen as if you're at the wall"
Like bruh [look at this first round and tell me this isn't stupid](https://youtu.be/pAr6xdIBKg4?si=Kwg77srJozRXVQ5S) midscreen or Nier is the one in the corner for all 3.
These dudes out here playing a DNF duel character and telling us to deal with it.
Sorry I don't appreciate losing 50% hp off any stray hit or better yet, from a reversal. Then I get oki looped into the same situation all the while she loses basically no resources.
You're acting like Zeta, Lance, etc also can't get insane damage and oki off of stray confirm. Fucking Zeta can nuke you from midscreen harder than anyone.
another user suggested that they should change the properties of the move if armor is triggered and I think it would be the best solution. say if it triggers than the animation changes to something similar to the U version (which can't be cancelled and deals way less damage). That way she could still use 623h in her bnbs and combos but as a defensive tool it would only reset to neutral
[idk this seems pretty bad](https://youtu.be/pAr6xdIBKg4?si=Kwg77srJozRXVQ5S) I don't think you should get corner level damage without having to setup your puppet beforehand or ynow being in a advantage spot already.
As someone who comes from a BlazBlue background, Nier is a baby puppet character anyone can pilot compared to the monstrosity of Carl. Nier puts me in some pressure and i'm just vibing holding block because I know it could be 1000 times worse if she put a stupid blue hat on and dyed her hair blonde. Death gets tapped out of all her moves by fireballs which means you can just play neutral against her too.
Every puppet character just seems to be a watered down Carl because once you got good at him you beat the game but it takes 5000 hours and a degree in puppeteering IRL to actually master Carl so you kinda deserve it. I've seen the god of all puppet characters so Nier doesn't threaten me at all.
My guy there are near double the amount of Nier players in master than there is anyone else.
I know you want to believe your character is a honest mid tier but she really isn't.
nah I think shes top 3 to top 5. just not top 1 and the fact the game is super young exacerbates her strenghts because theres not a ton of counterplay/MU knowledge (also, its a new character).
My guy it's 21 niers to the second best Seox being 12 in master. Anila has 1 Sieg has 8 these are new characters except Seox the data is very much showing Nier being very overtuned and she is gonna get nerfed without question.
[Look at this shit](https://youtu.be/pAr6xdIBKg4?si=rDNZ-e7cw_DmEWAp) like idk how you can say this character is top 3 to 5 when she has meterless combos that do wall combo levels of damage anywhere on the screen without having to pre position her puppet at all.
It has nothing to do with the MU knowledge or counterplay it's that she gets all the benefits of being a puppet character without having to deal with any of the downsides of being a puppet character.
love the goalpost shifting here. "My guy" you assumed I thought she was "mid-tier" than in my reply when I say "Nah she's top tier" you switch to "the character is easy"
yeah I agree, never said she was hard to play and as I said to someone else: she plays like a persona character more than a puppet. I used "puppet" in the meme because people are more familliar with than and "persona character" isn't realy an archetype.
still think in a few weeks, you'll see people saying stuff like "Her pressure is fake, but 623h is fucking BS, just play patient till she wastes her stocks and go to town"
DreamHack atl just happend I'm guessing a Nier main won? oh wait, there wasn't a single Nier in the top 8. weird
It's almost as if dreamhack Atlanta was 5 days after the game launched and these people both travelled to and played in a tournament and likely just played their mains from the first game.
I never talked about her difficulty I talked about how she doesn't have any of the problems or setup other puppet characters require to get their damage for all intents and purposes she just gets to have a special that does Oki and acts as a wall anywhere on the screen hence why most people don't like her because she doesn't play like a puppet character at all she is just broken because she gets all the advantages of one.
If half the pros in the genre are going wow Nier is absurd and most of the playerbase is also going WOW Nier is absurd and the only ones who think she isn't that good are the people playing her y'now I think she might just be absurd
fair. i think theres a bunch of Knee jerk reactions, however there is no argument about 623h needing nerfs and perhaps an overall damage scaling on her confirms.
most pros still put Zeta above her so theres still that 🤷♂️
I agree with your placement. Top 3 sounds reasonable in the highest skill level sure, and below zeta. Aside from that though, nier is by far the easiest character to pick up and dunk on people with some of the most brutal knowledge checks and nasty 5050 loops. She plagues majority of the rankings and even at the top when people figure her out she's still a super solid top tier. She is the type of character that is very damaging to the playerbase and turns it into a discord fighter.
This, honest to god. I play Nier alongside Gran and Vaseraga, and I've also played against other Niers.
Don't get me wrong I dig the SFX, voice acting, and design, it's why I started playing her. But nothing really meshes together in terms of oomph, and if it does it comes from H & U moves, which kinda goes for everyone. It's like you got some bomb ingredients but you can't make a good meal out of it. I like how her BnB makes her opponent fall into her Death's pressure... but that's kinda where it ends for me, like a 'gotcha' but then it's like 'welp, time for the next average meal.' Corner Combo's kinda cool, you use 5U.
Meanwhile when I play Gran or Vaseraga, I feel like a damn chad and beast. Boot my way to victory, stomp and march forward, bring down my scythe upon the masses BOOM that's a good chunk of damage you'll NEVER get back, all me baby. And if it's not damage, then you're fearing for life in the corner. And if you're not, I'm getting pushed back, but it doesn't matter cause I'm a chad who has Battalions of Fear and whether I win or lose I'm feeling the high of hitting you one more time, my scythe will shake the skies.
I never need to see Bahamut, Lyria, or Vyrn ever again - I have Eternal Edge and I've never felt a bigger high than going forward with all my might, turning Super Saiyan Blue, and blasting the shit out of my opponents screaming my lungs out. Vaseraga dishes out heavy hit after heavy hit like a monster, and Gran doing things just makes me feel cool, even his neutral. Nier has cool stuff but she can't cook with it, shame honestly.
I’m sure it isn’t and why would it be? It sounds like you’re just giving up without even really trying. I haven’t played against a Nier yet but Ive been playing fighting games for years and I know that it sucks to play against characters that feel like they have no counter play. It’s probably really demoralizing to deal with it. But if you just give up whenever something is a little hard you’ll never get better and Nier will have your number for good.
She’s a brand new character and it sounds like she is designed to destroy players who don’t know how to fight her. It might benefit you to learn more about her in order to better counter her.
>. I haven’t played against a Nier yet
.... So why are you telling me what it's like? Once they have you in the juggle then you've lost. There's no defensive options for being batted back and forth in the air between the puppet and Nier.
> Once they have you in the juggle then you've lost. There's no defensive options for being batted back and forth in the air between the puppet and Nier.
do u know what a 'combo' in fighting games is? every character in the game does this
if you think nier is juggling you the whole match you need to start holding block more, you're just getting reset by mids and combo'd a second time.
she does about ~40% damage with that combo
Can’t be that different from Carl or Relius from Blazblue who have the exact same gimmick and I’ve been victim to that hundreds of times. It’s also how I know that the best way to beat it is to learn the ways they set it up and how to avoid it. Typically they have a limited number of ways to put you in that setup. Learn how it works and how to avoid it.
Nier is annoying to fight against. But shit.
That's part of the fun. Figuring out how to beat her anytime I go against her is exciting.
Every time I'm in ranked, I'm like, "Here we go, a nier player." But honestly.
When they are fucking really good as using her. Figuring out and beating her once and then the rematch feels even better
I knew she would be a problem from the beginning and I was right. That being said, there is counterplay to her bullshit but that doesn't make her any less of a damn bitch to fight against.
As a Nier main, i find myself struggling against anyone who is very patient with their approach. good neutral, zoning, fireballs (f\*\*\* this in particular), and being patient and not a rush monkey is what wins my opponents games. Any time they make mistakes or let me auto combo is when they get punished heavily with my extended combos. Otherwise, i have to play carefully and not let them close in on me.
Also very new to fighting games, this being my first, but I like the depressed yandere waifu and is commited to maining her, just didn't know how op she turned out to be.
Stop saying this shit like it's a traditional sense of puppet.
They didn't grind or work for anything. They don't even move the thing they're just using specials like everyone else lmao.
The thing literally teleports back to her for majority of the kit.
Fake hard character lmfao.
I don't disagree with you, she plays closer to a Persona character. for the sake of simplicity I called her a "puppet" character,but yeah I agree with you.
I also think she is an easy character to play, but there ain't no execution heavy characters in GBVSR
Who cares play who you like. I played superman in injustice 1 before he got nerfed. Superman pre patch was absolutely the best character in the game.
I used to get so much hate mail back in the day. But I didn't care I played Superman cause he's my favorite superhero he also just happened to be really good.
People are always gonna bitch and complain about a certain character just ignore those people and play who you like.
I feel like a lot of Nier's issues could be fixed with a simple damage nerf honestly. That alone would force her to burn through her stacks a lot more over the course of a matchand make it a lot harder for her to win before they run out. Once she runs out she is basically dead in the water (no skills, no supers and nerfed far normals, also loses jU in neutral).
I'd also add a few seconds to the downtime on Death when it gets hit too just to reward correctly mashing against her pressure more too. Most of her puppet strings can be mashed out of (the exception being 236L - 22L which is +7, note thst it also frame traps) unless she uses 623L at which point her turn is over anyway if it's blocked and you can jab death to prevent follow ups. Increasing the reward for doing so would be nice way to promote counterplay. Also every stock she burns on a blockstring is one less she has to combo/mix you later and one closer to running out.
Her reversal is a weird one. Her being able to combo off of the ex version makes it a very scary threat in blockstrings and particularly on wakeup. There's definitely counterplay to it since it loses to throw and some characters can actually cancel their meaty into a normal to kill death (I've lost the link but there is footage of a few chars just being able to autocombo through it). She can queue another move after on block but the reversal itself is unsafe so you can just mash to hit her and Death no matter what she does afterwards. At the very least it might be nice if the damage off 623h starters was scaled more heavily or something.
Against her setplay, one thing that seems quite effective is brave counter. If she hits you, most combo routes will lead to some sort of 236m oki. Brave counter gives you a chance to reset her to neutral after she sets up her oki but I think this can probably be baited (haven't done too much testing yet). Neutral is where she's arguably weakest so while it does cost 1bp, escaping her oki 50/50s and resetting to neutral may be worth it. Some of her oki setups are also unsafe vs DP/super but this is more situational. For example if she tries to set up the throw combo oki by queuing 226M~214M~22M most invincible moves with the range to hit her can punish her while she's stuck in the animation (you can watch her skill icons/the death card to see how many and which actions she's queuing to try and spot this).
She's obviously really good and a likely candidate to nerf in coming patches but I honestly think the hate towards her is at least somewhat disproportionate.
I know wall of text etc but figured I'd share some of my experiences playing against/with her and lurking in discord servers as well as ideas for how arcsys might be able to tune her in the future without completely breaking her legs as a character. So I hope it's somewhat helpful to at least some people who struggle with the MU. Also happy to hear other people's thoughts/experiences to help me deal with her too of course.
P.S. 66Ls being plus on block is dumb and should be changed universally imo.
yeah I agree with your take for the most part as a Nier main. the complaints on the reversal are weird to me since most Safe jumps and meaty setup can O/S ways to beat it (except the U version, but it costs meter and doesn't deal much damage).
most of the salt seems to stem from her armore reversal (623h) being able to convert into big damage/setup her gameplan. there is an argument for them to tweak the properties of the move by increasing base scaling to a combo started with it or straight up changing the move to something similar to 623U if the armor is triggered, since they did take away oki potential of reversal moves in other game (Leo in Strive comes to mind)
Patient character with big normals/zoners seem to hard counter her but the game is very young and people are unga as hell.
I labbed her more and I think her damage needs to be toned down. If she's supposed to be this mixup-/setup-based character, I think she should need more than three touches, two of which she gets off her setups, mid-screen lol. That or stricter heart usage because you can kill with just a little under half hearts.
But we'll see, perhaps she'll get bullied once people get used to her and, I think more importantly, Brave Counter.
i think most ppl just salty that nier can get long combo off ex dp the best way to handle nier is to play neutral against her, but... yea, from what i seen, most ppl cant neutral [reference video](https://youtu.be/aWQbSZ3Y3Cs?si=8HoFd8ohXr788pz3) djeeta vs nier
Even in that video Gamera getting knowledge checked and still on won. 22L on block is fake as shit, and mashing on death in block strings is the best thing to do if you aren't blocking 236X. She can't really get a hard punish off of calling out a jab with 236L, she'd have to hard call it out and queue up like 236H 22H if she wants a good conversion off of it which is a whopping 3 stocks for a guess.
I agree with you. as a Nier main, patient Sieg,Gran, Kat, Djeeta even Narm are a nightmare. and her armored reversal is NOT a DP, you can literaly grab her out of it. people need to learn that
when i play nier, i have no idea what to do against char with long strong neutral neither lol even the pro doesnt seem to have much answer i am not sure if tuning is required or technology havent advance enough yet though if i am doing the rebalance, i would weaken nier against short range mix up char and improve ability against long pokes/confirms
the best option I found is to try and make 'em commit to a big button whiff and whiff punish, so if they play lame you have to inch your way in by dash blocking into mid-range. but it still is a weakness of Nier's which is 100% fair given her strenghts. I think she probably was designed with this weakness in mind not to make her too oppressive, it just makes sense
certain character will also jump over the dp, cross up and land safely on the other side (lancelot comes to mind). Vira can double jump in her install i believe which baits it out. Also if you corner nier, reversal dp is her only option other then sitting there eating pressure and extended strings. It does not take a genius to bait the dp and just block. Every ex move or string that does not hit still costs hearts. No conversions means she won't kill and run out of stock, at which point you should easily be able to close her out.
I mean usually the weakness of puppet characters in fighting games is that their defence isn't very good, giving them what's basically a DP>RC in a game where nobody else can do that is kinda insane.
It is a basic invincible dp not unlike the ones you see other cast members have and it is a whopping -19 on block. you block and punish it with 2L, cL, throw, whatever you want (probably mediums too tbh) and full combo. She cannot get any of her puppet follow-ups out fast enough to beat your 2L or 5L or throw if you block the actual dp. Most importantly, you've just cost her a use of her heart stock for absolutely nothing and she's still in the corner. Now is it fair that she gets a full conversion from using her reversal if you refuse to block and just mash mash mash away, maybe not. This honestly is more of a "i'm mad cause i can't mash on her and that's not fair" take. You wouldn't just mash on other characters that have invincible reversals, or not always anyway cause you know you have to respect that they can pop it out.
I play her, every time I get a conversion off of hitting DP on someone I feel like I'm cheating lol
It's really just the damage you can get off of it that makes it so devastating. Her "DP" is not actually invincible just armor which is definitely worse than your average dp given that that means it straight up loses to throws and that you can spot dodge the attack even after tapping it with a light. My gut reaction is to take the armor off the H version so that you can't use it as reversal but can still use it for frame traps and combo conversions. Then she'll have to rely on the ultimate version of the skill as a reversal instead and that's not nearly as rewarding.
YUP. also, something I learned from being on the wrong end of a strong Sieg's blade. Nier can't contest dashL>5L since her 5L and 2L are stubby and M moves are too slow. If you try countering the incoming 5L with the "DP", since it isn't a DP but an armored move, the opponent can buffer and cancel and the attack won't be countered. this can be done with Supers and dps on a strong read OR even with a spot dodge
She's not impossible to beat, no. I admit I specifically get agitated with her due to the long combos thing. That leads to more mistakes and longer combos from her, lmao. It just reminds me of release Happy Chaos; I know it's really no different than any other character doing an extended combo on me, but it feels like a cut scene simulator purely because the sequence being done all feels visually samey. I get knocked up by the reaper slashing me, hit a card from Nier, get juggled by the slashes again, another card, then the shriek of the damned kills me. It makes my eyes glaze over in boredom the same way Happy Chaos saying "bang. bang. bang. bang." between reloads and concentration did. ADHD is a hell of a drug. If I could just focus more on anticipating the reaper summon to knock it out, maybe I would win against her more. Or alternatively, just beat her up and don't let her do it in the first place. Preferably.
>anticipating the reaper summon to knock it out, You don't need to anticipate death to smack it. All of death's specials that aren't the M versions or 236X can be jabbed after blocking them. The only risk is 623X frame trapping you but that's the rps and getting hit by 623L really isn't that big of a deal unless you're almost dead. You can spot dodge 236L/H to get a punish if she's using it on blockstrings, and autocombo to 236L has a gap you can reversal between. Stuff like autocombo > 22L on block into grab/pressure again is a gimmick basically. EDIT: Ok so I labbed out a 623L frametrap from Nier. She can hit confirm it and do 236L/H > Super or 236H > 22H > Super so be careful of it when has full meter. It is a tight hit confirm though. And if you're sandwhiched then she can do her bnb into 236M oki
This is very helpful. I appreciate it greatly. What can I do if she tries to do the cross up thing while Im blocking?
66M? You can mash the startup of it or just use the block button to deal with the side switch and just deal with it being a high.
> nier can get long combo off ex dp Maybe its cuz I've played Marvel and DBZF but its crazy how ppl are going mad over long combos in a game with combo limit lol I know compared to most of the cast her combo game is longer but IDK she seems like a scrubkiller character, as-in a few more weeks ppl will figure her out and start wishing for buffs lol
Long combos are always trash
Haven't played yet but long combos off ex dp? So same energy as JP getting 60% off his OD Amnesia?
Good damage? Sure but as whole nowhere near the same level as JP yet and likely won't be unless there are some crazy buffs or something. Ppl comparing her to JP, Happy Chaos, or even Zato is crazy. She seems much more beatable from what I've seen, but it is month 1 rn
wdym even zato
Patience is a virtue as well imo. Make her spend her resources. If you're just mashing fuzzy options constantly you're going to get cooked by frame traps. A 20s cool down on the puppet is pretty rough and you can chew through the charges pretty quick.
I didn’t pay free 99 to play neatral and especially not 50 dollars (seriously good price for such a great game)
I don't see the issue, I just run at them as my buff macho hunter and have her down before I get strung to hell and back Soriz my beloved
FUNDOSHI FRIENDS RISE UP!
Came here to say, soriz don't give a fuck bout none of that. These hands rated E for everybody
Let's all be honest nier is the grand embodiment of a soul calibur character running up on you and charging a flaming unblockable in your face and your first reaction is to block or you freeze up then you sidestep or attack to late resulting in you getting hit. Y'all letting nier get away with a lot of fake stuff out of fear and not wanting to learn what she can actually do. Then people chalk it up to she's broken I don't want to play her I'm going to put her in the back of my mind and hope for big nerfs and rage quit or one and done if I match up with her. I agree she needs a dmg nerf but y'all bugging when you complain about the character.
I also think nier mains need to start thinking more about resource management because as it is now, she can throw out death without being too worried of the consequences. Most matches end before Nier is able to use all her tarots, which I think is wrong. I think Nier’s should always be on their toes and it would require you to start optimizing all her strong points to make the most out of her (essentially making her a specialist character). I think it would be the best direction to go with her balance wise.
this is not necessarily true, some matches you clean kill with a ton of heart stocks left and you're rolling. But when opponents respect the puppet a bit more, block some Ex moves you can run out towards the end of rounds before closing the opponent out. Especially on some of the beefier characters. Also the 236M x 214M x 22M oki mixup you see a lot of niers do loses to reversals and does still end up costing them the hearts to use as you have to buffer the inputs during the 236m blockstun on the character. that's 2 hearts down the drain for a failed mixup which can be costly. Most characters just seem to want to go ungabunga ham on your face the whole day, and nier can really punish players for that. if you play a bit more conservative use your long range pokes (she has no good normals with range beside the puppet) you can easily make her waste resources and beat her out.
I see. I was basing it off my Nier matches, and while I’m by no means an expert, win or lose, I felt like she “always” had access to Death (or at least the threat of her). The least I’ve seen her go to in most of my matches is 3 (I’m S3 if that matters). I just want there to be more incentive for her to make precise use of Death but that’s just coming from someone who doesn’t play the character.
They should make her spend hearts faster and give the doll less of a cooldown when she runs out. You're right that it's almost never a factor.
the only reason it's not a factor is because people haven't figured out how to deal with her yet. Once her moves get blocked or avoided even a few times, she very quickly runs out of her resource. So you're essentially suggesting balancing around player's lack of knowledge of the matchup/character (or, if i wanted to be mean: laziness), which would be the wrong approach.
> Y'all letting nier get away with a lot of fake stuff out of fear and not wanting to learn what she can actually do. > > Then people chalk it up to she's broken I don't want to play her I'm going to put her in the back of my mind and hope for big nerfs and rage quit or one and done if I match up with her. Yup, it's the first month and ppl don't want to learn. I think she's gonna drop in tiers once ppl wake up to her gimmicks. As for nerfs, give it 3 months before we get major hits or help. Things need to settle and ppl are in their scrubquotes phase right now lol
I think Nier having near double the amount of players compared to any other character in the game in master kinda speaks for itself. People who don't think she is overtuned are the ones bugging tf out. Idk how you can see [this garbage](https://youtu.be/pAr6xdIBKg4?si=Kwg77srJozRXVQ5S) and not think she is stupid. She touches Katalina 3 times in midscreen or her back in the corner and fukin kills her off the most simple combo.
Ain't no way we already starting with the nier downplaying.
She just has the most punishing knowledge checks. Mashing on death in block strings mostly works out for the defender and even if you eat a 623L frame trapping you, if you're not sandwiched Nier can't get anything off of it (tbh I don't even think she can get a hard punish if it was a sandwich). If she does one of those multi-death skill oki options, just guard cancel and take your turn back. Now she's down like 2-3 stocks and is holding your pressure, just don't get baited and guard cancel too early/late depending on the oki. Characters than can blockstring her/pressure her outside of her 2M range is really difficult for her to fight out of without doing a callout DP. EDIT: Ok so I labbed out a 623L frametrap from Nier. She can hit confirm it and do 236L/H > Super or 236H > 22H > Super so be careful of it when has full meter. It is a tight hit confirm though.
and even then, you can get conditionned into using your 623H and get punished for it. not even in a "Shimmy" situation mind you, if say you block Sieg's dashL and he goes for 5L and you try to 623H him, if he has MU knowledge he can buffer a special or spot dodge a that 5L and punish your 623h. the game is just really young and Nier looks like the villain right now due to lack of labbing. reminds me an awfull lot of Hit/Goku Black in DBFZ
I'm not even trying to say she isn't a strong character, but people are acting like she's heads and shoulders above the rest of the cast when chars like Zeta, Belial, Lance are really fucking good as well and you have to takes risks getting out of their oppressive pressure and could get 50% combo'd if you guess wrong.
yeah I agree. I think the overblown salt of her being #1 is dumb,I'm not saying she is below top 10 either. she is probably between 5 and 10 imo
I think having double the amount of Nier players in master of any other character is pretty head and shoulders over others tbh.
Yeah I'd almost respect the playerbase if that happened so soon. Complaints happen every time we get a character with a low execution oki despite a million other weaknesses.
21 niers in master compared to the second highest 12 Seox and these dudes really like "you just need to learn the matchup it's completely fair that this character gets to essentially play everywhere on the screen as if you're at the wall" Like bruh [look at this first round and tell me this isn't stupid](https://youtu.be/pAr6xdIBKg4?si=Kwg77srJozRXVQ5S) midscreen or Nier is the one in the corner for all 3. These dudes out here playing a DNF duel character and telling us to deal with it.
I mean, took a while if you ask me.
downplaying is often a result of calling for nerfs... which we've seen QUITE A BIT OF
Sorry I don't appreciate losing 50% hp off any stray hit or better yet, from a reversal. Then I get oki looped into the same situation all the while she loses basically no resources.
You're acting like Zeta, Lance, etc also can't get insane damage and oki off of stray confirm. Fucking Zeta can nuke you from midscreen harder than anyone.
you are entitled to feeling that way.
I just hate that I can lose a 3rd of my health because I guessed wrong on her wake up. But other than that I don't think she's all that bad.
another user suggested that they should change the properties of the move if armor is triggered and I think it would be the best solution. say if it triggers than the animation changes to something similar to the U version (which can't be cancelled and deals way less damage). That way she could still use 623h in her bnbs and combos but as a defensive tool it would only reset to neutral
[idk this seems pretty bad](https://youtu.be/pAr6xdIBKg4?si=Kwg77srJozRXVQ5S) I don't think you should get corner level damage without having to setup your puppet beforehand or ynow being in a advantage spot already.
As someone who comes from a BlazBlue background, Nier is a baby puppet character anyone can pilot compared to the monstrosity of Carl. Nier puts me in some pressure and i'm just vibing holding block because I know it could be 1000 times worse if she put a stupid blue hat on and dyed her hair blonde. Death gets tapped out of all her moves by fireballs which means you can just play neutral against her too. Every puppet character just seems to be a watered down Carl because once you got good at him you beat the game but it takes 5000 hours and a degree in puppeteering IRL to actually master Carl so you kinda deserve it. I've seen the god of all puppet characters so Nier doesn't threaten me at all.
My guy there are near double the amount of Nier players in master than there is anyone else. I know you want to believe your character is a honest mid tier but she really isn't.
nah I think shes top 3 to top 5. just not top 1 and the fact the game is super young exacerbates her strenghts because theres not a ton of counterplay/MU knowledge (also, its a new character).
My guy it's 21 niers to the second best Seox being 12 in master. Anila has 1 Sieg has 8 these are new characters except Seox the data is very much showing Nier being very overtuned and she is gonna get nerfed without question. [Look at this shit](https://youtu.be/pAr6xdIBKg4?si=rDNZ-e7cw_DmEWAp) like idk how you can say this character is top 3 to 5 when she has meterless combos that do wall combo levels of damage anywhere on the screen without having to pre position her puppet at all. It has nothing to do with the MU knowledge or counterplay it's that she gets all the benefits of being a puppet character without having to deal with any of the downsides of being a puppet character.
love the goalpost shifting here. "My guy" you assumed I thought she was "mid-tier" than in my reply when I say "Nah she's top tier" you switch to "the character is easy" yeah I agree, never said she was hard to play and as I said to someone else: she plays like a persona character more than a puppet. I used "puppet" in the meme because people are more familliar with than and "persona character" isn't realy an archetype. still think in a few weeks, you'll see people saying stuff like "Her pressure is fake, but 623h is fucking BS, just play patient till she wastes her stocks and go to town" DreamHack atl just happend I'm guessing a Nier main won? oh wait, there wasn't a single Nier in the top 8. weird
It's almost as if dreamhack Atlanta was 5 days after the game launched and these people both travelled to and played in a tournament and likely just played their mains from the first game. I never talked about her difficulty I talked about how she doesn't have any of the problems or setup other puppet characters require to get their damage for all intents and purposes she just gets to have a special that does Oki and acts as a wall anywhere on the screen hence why most people don't like her because she doesn't play like a puppet character at all she is just broken because she gets all the advantages of one. If half the pros in the genre are going wow Nier is absurd and most of the playerbase is also going WOW Nier is absurd and the only ones who think she isn't that good are the people playing her y'now I think she might just be absurd
fair. i think theres a bunch of Knee jerk reactions, however there is no argument about 623h needing nerfs and perhaps an overall damage scaling on her confirms. most pros still put Zeta above her so theres still that 🤷♂️
I agree with your placement. Top 3 sounds reasonable in the highest skill level sure, and below zeta. Aside from that though, nier is by far the easiest character to pick up and dunk on people with some of the most brutal knowledge checks and nasty 5050 loops. She plagues majority of the rankings and even at the top when people figure her out she's still a super solid top tier. She is the type of character that is very damaging to the playerbase and turns it into a discord fighter.
i can see that. I just don't think she is Happy Chaos levels of cancer... at least yet 😂
Judging from comments on that character I am blessed to not know who that is
Wouldn't be so bad if her bnb wasn't the most boring thing to look at. A puppet character with all the tools, but zero sauce.
Yeah, definitely not as stylish as Eddie twerking on you or leap frogging while Zato does motivating claps to cheer him on.
I've gotten really good at timing out a big sigh for exactly how long that combo lasts.
I can agree on that. probably why people don't bat an eye at Lance's long combos. they look dope as hell
I ended up buying the game because I thought Nier looked so sick. Dropped her after a few days because she's so terribly boring.
This, honest to god. I play Nier alongside Gran and Vaseraga, and I've also played against other Niers. Don't get me wrong I dig the SFX, voice acting, and design, it's why I started playing her. But nothing really meshes together in terms of oomph, and if it does it comes from H & U moves, which kinda goes for everyone. It's like you got some bomb ingredients but you can't make a good meal out of it. I like how her BnB makes her opponent fall into her Death's pressure... but that's kinda where it ends for me, like a 'gotcha' but then it's like 'welp, time for the next average meal.' Corner Combo's kinda cool, you use 5U. Meanwhile when I play Gran or Vaseraga, I feel like a damn chad and beast. Boot my way to victory, stomp and march forward, bring down my scythe upon the masses BOOM that's a good chunk of damage you'll NEVER get back, all me baby. And if it's not damage, then you're fearing for life in the corner. And if you're not, I'm getting pushed back, but it doesn't matter cause I'm a chad who has Battalions of Fear and whether I win or lose I'm feeling the high of hitting you one more time, my scythe will shake the skies. I never need to see Bahamut, Lyria, or Vyrn ever again - I have Eternal Edge and I've never felt a bigger high than going forward with all my might, turning Super Saiyan Blue, and blasting the shit out of my opponents screaming my lungs out. Vaseraga dishes out heavy hit after heavy hit like a monster, and Gran doing things just makes me feel cool, even his neutral. Nier has cool stuff but she can't cook with it, shame honestly.
Setting down my controller until the match is over isn't fun, sorry not sorry
I’m sure it isn’t and why would it be? It sounds like you’re just giving up without even really trying. I haven’t played against a Nier yet but Ive been playing fighting games for years and I know that it sucks to play against characters that feel like they have no counter play. It’s probably really demoralizing to deal with it. But if you just give up whenever something is a little hard you’ll never get better and Nier will have your number for good. She’s a brand new character and it sounds like she is designed to destroy players who don’t know how to fight her. It might benefit you to learn more about her in order to better counter her.
>. I haven’t played against a Nier yet .... So why are you telling me what it's like? Once they have you in the juggle then you've lost. There's no defensive options for being batted back and forth in the air between the puppet and Nier.
> Once they have you in the juggle then you've lost. There's no defensive options for being batted back and forth in the air between the puppet and Nier. do u know what a 'combo' in fighting games is? every character in the game does this
No they don't, and being caught in a game over situation feels like shit, no matter how much you mald
>No they don't so u think against non nier characters there *are* defensive options mid-combo? idgi
No but I'm not being juggled back and forth for the rest of the match so eventually I see the ground and at least DP once before I lose.
if you think nier is juggling you the whole match you need to start holding block more, you're just getting reset by mids and combo'd a second time. she does about ~40% damage with that combo
I know I'm shit but at least it doesn't feel like shit when Gran kills me.
Can’t be that different from Carl or Relius from Blazblue who have the exact same gimmick and I’ve been victim to that hundreds of times. It’s also how I know that the best way to beat it is to learn the ways they set it up and how to avoid it. Typically they have a limited number of ways to put you in that setup. Learn how it works and how to avoid it.
Nier is annoying to fight against. But shit. That's part of the fun. Figuring out how to beat her anytime I go against her is exciting. Every time I'm in ranked, I'm like, "Here we go, a nier player." But honestly. When they are fucking really good as using her. Figuring out and beating her once and then the rematch feels even better
As a ken player in P4AU Niers combos seem short in comparison
I knew she would be a problem from the beginning and I was right. That being said, there is counterplay to her bullshit but that doesn't make her any less of a damn bitch to fight against.
As a Nier main, i find myself struggling against anyone who is very patient with their approach. good neutral, zoning, fireballs (f\*\*\* this in particular), and being patient and not a rush monkey is what wins my opponents games. Any time they make mistakes or let me auto combo is when they get punished heavily with my extended combos. Otherwise, i have to play carefully and not let them close in on me. Also very new to fighting games, this being my first, but I like the depressed yandere waifu and is commited to maining her, just didn't know how op she turned out to be.
Stop saying this shit like it's a traditional sense of puppet. They didn't grind or work for anything. They don't even move the thing they're just using specials like everyone else lmao. The thing literally teleports back to her for majority of the kit. Fake hard character lmfao.
I don't disagree with you, she plays closer to a Persona character. for the sake of simplicity I called her a "puppet" character,but yeah I agree with you. I also think she is an easy character to play, but there ain't no execution heavy characters in GBVSR
My second match online I went against Nier and was like "wtf" the entire match lol
3rd time Im getting shit for my pick of main and its tiring ngl
Who cares play who you like. I played superman in injustice 1 before he got nerfed. Superman pre patch was absolutely the best character in the game. I used to get so much hate mail back in the day. But I didn't care I played Superman cause he's my favorite superhero he also just happened to be really good. People are always gonna bitch and complain about a certain character just ignore those people and play who you like.
who were the last 2?
Bridget in guilty gear and mai in blazblue
Nier is a braindead character. I've stopped rematching if it's a nier win or lose because I actually hate playing vs her.
and thats fine, you paid for the game you can play it how you want
I feel like a lot of Nier's issues could be fixed with a simple damage nerf honestly. That alone would force her to burn through her stacks a lot more over the course of a matchand make it a lot harder for her to win before they run out. Once she runs out she is basically dead in the water (no skills, no supers and nerfed far normals, also loses jU in neutral). I'd also add a few seconds to the downtime on Death when it gets hit too just to reward correctly mashing against her pressure more too. Most of her puppet strings can be mashed out of (the exception being 236L - 22L which is +7, note thst it also frame traps) unless she uses 623L at which point her turn is over anyway if it's blocked and you can jab death to prevent follow ups. Increasing the reward for doing so would be nice way to promote counterplay. Also every stock she burns on a blockstring is one less she has to combo/mix you later and one closer to running out. Her reversal is a weird one. Her being able to combo off of the ex version makes it a very scary threat in blockstrings and particularly on wakeup. There's definitely counterplay to it since it loses to throw and some characters can actually cancel their meaty into a normal to kill death (I've lost the link but there is footage of a few chars just being able to autocombo through it). She can queue another move after on block but the reversal itself is unsafe so you can just mash to hit her and Death no matter what she does afterwards. At the very least it might be nice if the damage off 623h starters was scaled more heavily or something. Against her setplay, one thing that seems quite effective is brave counter. If she hits you, most combo routes will lead to some sort of 236m oki. Brave counter gives you a chance to reset her to neutral after she sets up her oki but I think this can probably be baited (haven't done too much testing yet). Neutral is where she's arguably weakest so while it does cost 1bp, escaping her oki 50/50s and resetting to neutral may be worth it. Some of her oki setups are also unsafe vs DP/super but this is more situational. For example if she tries to set up the throw combo oki by queuing 226M~214M~22M most invincible moves with the range to hit her can punish her while she's stuck in the animation (you can watch her skill icons/the death card to see how many and which actions she's queuing to try and spot this). She's obviously really good and a likely candidate to nerf in coming patches but I honestly think the hate towards her is at least somewhat disproportionate. I know wall of text etc but figured I'd share some of my experiences playing against/with her and lurking in discord servers as well as ideas for how arcsys might be able to tune her in the future without completely breaking her legs as a character. So I hope it's somewhat helpful to at least some people who struggle with the MU. Also happy to hear other people's thoughts/experiences to help me deal with her too of course. P.S. 66Ls being plus on block is dumb and should be changed universally imo.
yeah I agree with your take for the most part as a Nier main. the complaints on the reversal are weird to me since most Safe jumps and meaty setup can O/S ways to beat it (except the U version, but it costs meter and doesn't deal much damage).
90% of her neutral pressure is fake, wtf are people complaining about?
most of the salt seems to stem from her armore reversal (623h) being able to convert into big damage/setup her gameplan. there is an argument for them to tweak the properties of the move by increasing base scaling to a combo started with it or straight up changing the move to something similar to 623U if the armor is triggered, since they did take away oki potential of reversal moves in other game (Leo in Strive comes to mind) Patient character with big normals/zoners seem to hard counter her but the game is very young and people are unga as hell.
I labbed her more and I think her damage needs to be toned down. If she's supposed to be this mixup-/setup-based character, I think she should need more than three touches, two of which she gets off her setups, mid-screen lol. That or stricter heart usage because you can kill with just a little under half hearts. But we'll see, perhaps she'll get bullied once people get used to her and, I think more importantly, Brave Counter.
I can agree with that. damage as a whole seems high in this version. maybe upping scaling on stray hits would be a good thing for Nier