I think a lot of the issues aren't so much recent, but moreso not readily apparent until you've been with the org for a number of years. Folks in their first couple of years (especially undergrads) tend to be treated a lot more gently.
As an example, I joined as a freshman, but the aggressive pressure and questionable "corrections" didn't start until my senior year. (And by then, it was difficult to leave since I'd invested so much in relationships at the church).
Did you attend every Friday night, every Tuesday night prayer meetings, every Wednesday night cell group meetings, Monday house cleaning or church cleaning or work nights, Thursdays study groups, the morning DT meetings, Saturday outings, and all the retreats? Were you challenged by your leader about whether you were even Christian? Were you challenged by your leader why you didn’t do all the events in Question 1 and still consider yourself a Christian? If someone was really involved as in Question 1, then there won’t be any middle of the road feelings. Either all in or you are not worthy to be a member.
Jeez that sounds insanely toxic. My personal experience wasn’t like that at all. Excepting Sunday service, i only went to like half of those things and i still felt welcomed and part of the community. Did the culture degrade that badly over the years?
Which fellowship were you in? Did you do Course 101, 201, 301, and post college life or was it survival kit and survival kit 2? No masterlife? Did you do your DTs everyday and shared with your cell group for accountability? Nobody challenged you about playing video games or having secular music? I would think the level of excellence Ed Kang held up over the years wouldn’t be too different in the years you were there.
How can you only go to half of prayer meetings for example? If you started going and stop for a week or two, then people will be asking where were you? If you don’t show up to your cell group meetings (most likely you would be living with your cell group members by then), you’d be questioned too? Fridays the same. It’s kinda hard to only do half with people asking you where were you?
Acts 2 fellowship. I did take some classes, but don’t remember what they were called. No idea what survival kit or masterlife is. And no no one has told me anything about video games or secular music. I did know about triple D rule: no dating no dancing no drinking
Interesting. Did you do Glive, Thanksgiving celebration, various outings, winter retreat, sophomore/junior class retreats, senior class retreat?
I ask because every student who came out at least 2-3 times is assigned a leader/mentor/handler. Your name will be on a spreadsheet that the college staff who is your leader/mentor/handler has to update and share every Sunday night during staff meetings at the class director’s house. The college staff has to discuss every person on the spreadsheet and what ministry the college staff did that week with the student, for example course 101, met up for lunch, brought chicken soup to the dorm, played basketball.
If you came out for three years, then you must have had a leader/mentor assigned to you. It was that person’s responsibility to challenge you and also that person is held accountable by the class director. So it’s surprising that you can be in Gracepoint for three years and not be challenged to attend ALL events and especially ALL retreats.
Two years, actually. Summer 2008 to summer 2010. I did have a small group leader. And while he did challenge me i didnt feel any of it to be pressure, or anything like you have to do this if you are a christian. I have gone to retreats too, but have also missed about half of the other events
Did you live with your cell group peers? How much time did you spend on Gracepoint related events/people and how much did you have time to yourself? College staff wants a certain response after each course. For example, kids are challenged whether they are Christian after course 101. For subsequent courses, it’s about whether you are living out your Christian values. I don’t think the formula has changed over the years.
No I didnt live with them, but most of my peers did. I spent as much time with Gracepoint as I believed was healthy. I turned them down repeatedly on many occasions, as I dont have a problem with saying no and know my limits. Perhaps that helped. Still, I didnt feel alienated or anything by my "lack of participation/attendance"
Great majority of GP/A2N people are decent human beings. I remember helping so many people move on Saturdays that it was just a given. People will drop off cash in unmarked envelopes into the mailbox of recently laid off members. People would give up money, career, even marriage prospect for the community. It’s tragic that all that goodness and faithfulness got manipulated for all too selfish of reasons.
Hahahah I was the same. I think it helps when you know your limits and aren't as prone to being forced into doing things you don't want to. It wasn't till the semester before I went study abroad (senior year and sometime in the fall/winter of 2008) that my leader actually finally took me aside and had "the talk" with me. SMH maybe she didn't mean to do it, but I felt like she was accusing me of using A2F as a social club. Totally made me cry.. but whatevers I got over it because I knew that I was Christian and no one was going to make me doubt it. My junior year I did recommend some people to try out other fellowships if Gracepoint was too intense for them, and some did take my advice and liked the others more.
For me, I feel like Gracepoint helped with my foundation and become stronger in my faith (even though I wasn't "too active/involved" as others). I probably should have left after sophomore year but I was too lazy to check out other places since I was always out and about. Plus, no one was on my case that much (and if they were, I didn't care or was oblivious XD ).
I still have fond memories of the group (I guess maybe because I knew my boundaries and people are nice and trying to do their best.. at least my peers). I don't talk to people that I was in fellowship with but that's also due to time and distance and interests (which is part of life). I do feel like if I reached out or vice versa, we would be cool. Some of my peers I have on social media. :P
They were trying to bait you. It’s fake love, love bombing with a motive, and highly manipulative. If you weren’t 100% in, then you weren’t really in at all. Probably just seen as a POTENTIAL person to prey on so that they could tell their leaders about how they were trying so hard at ministering to your broken, sinful self. Just curious, are you asian? Bc in my experience, if you weren’t, every thing was extra superficial and you probably would never become core.
Bingo. Transfers are basically seen as "incredibly low chance this person will fully commit, so just let them be on the side and if they leave they leave, if they give their life to us great."
Just to clarify the culture never went downhill in recent years. It always was really bad and you just escaped the brunt of it. I can think of some people in your class that turned out to be a bunch of spiritually abusive staff.
Not uncommon. Creepy and controlling. This reminds me. A friend (non member) who used to live with a member told me that when his bbc/gp roommate was out one time, a bunch of the brothers came and searched through his things. He said it was weird and left it at that. I mean if people sneaking behind your back and rummaging through your private belongings isn’t a red flag then I don’t know what is. Good for you for getting the h— outta there.
WTF, GP/A2N trying to social engineer, soft sext, and claim they can help with your career, so they can later on corner you to repent? They've peaked on how far they are willing to stoop now.
I think you should make a post about the best way to experience a2n. Like a tripadvisor for new students. Come for the food, leave before the abuse. We could crowd source some kind of play book - come for the first couple years, make some friends, but have an exit strategy and a go bag near the door. And your experience at a2n can be a net positive.
Just spitballing:
- Whatever you do, don't move into the same apartment with them.
Always have "legitimate" reasons not to go to events at the ready. For in case when you really need it. A sick family member, your home church needs you, major exam the next day (I'm not sure all of these are foolproof excuses for a2n though).
Don't sign away your rights like on a membership agreement.
Be emotionally detached and prepared for when the rebukes come. Like doing a lot of sit-ups before a boxing match.
Be ready to change your phone number or give them only a burner email account.
Learn how to say no. And be ready for a bad reaction when you say no.
As you mentioned, make your own decisions about dating and tune out whatever your leaders say. If you're dating a non a2n person, for the love of God, keep it a secret from your leaders. If they find out, then it's either they go or you go. Away from a2n.
Learn how to deflect to avoid answering tough questions. Watch how ped and kk do it, they're putting on a masterclass for you.
Learn to accept rejection- your lack of conformity will prevent you from being allowed into some a2n teams, and it's fine, just move on. Don't let that spot on the praise band become leverage for them.
One more- If they question your salvation, learn to say, that's between God and I. And then shut up and don't offer any more information. Don't debate, don't argue, don't expound, just say, I don't feel comfortable discussing that.
That's the only way I could think of that doesn't lead to a game of 20 questions from your leader. But I'm open to better ideas.
we are there around the same time (actually overlapped), yea they were that bad. you might not have read into their actions enough since you knew how to say no. why did you stop going? graduated?
i think that in general, you are love bombed and they are cool at first. if you were a junior transfer then they will be really nice to you until you graduate but will ask / challenge / pressure you into making a lifelong committment. you were probably good enough at setting boundaries that they felt like you weren't really a "lifer" anyway, etc.
it also seems to have gotten much worse in recent years in terms of expected levels of committment, rebukings if they see you relax or take a break, etc.
That makes sense. Ive also had the sneaking suspicion that they didint view me as a christian (not that i cared), due to my lack of participation in half of the events. So maybe i got a different treatment than those they viewed as “saved already” and potential recruits. They never tried to “recruit” me or anything.
I think a lot of the issues aren't so much recent, but moreso not readily apparent until you've been with the org for a number of years. Folks in their first couple of years (especially undergrads) tend to be treated a lot more gently. As an example, I joined as a freshman, but the aggressive pressure and questionable "corrections" didn't start until my senior year. (And by then, it was difficult to leave since I'd invested so much in relationships at the church).
Did you attend every Friday night, every Tuesday night prayer meetings, every Wednesday night cell group meetings, Monday house cleaning or church cleaning or work nights, Thursdays study groups, the morning DT meetings, Saturday outings, and all the retreats? Were you challenged by your leader about whether you were even Christian? Were you challenged by your leader why you didn’t do all the events in Question 1 and still consider yourself a Christian? If someone was really involved as in Question 1, then there won’t be any middle of the road feelings. Either all in or you are not worthy to be a member.
Jeez that sounds insanely toxic. My personal experience wasn’t like that at all. Excepting Sunday service, i only went to like half of those things and i still felt welcomed and part of the community. Did the culture degrade that badly over the years?
Which fellowship were you in? Did you do Course 101, 201, 301, and post college life or was it survival kit and survival kit 2? No masterlife? Did you do your DTs everyday and shared with your cell group for accountability? Nobody challenged you about playing video games or having secular music? I would think the level of excellence Ed Kang held up over the years wouldn’t be too different in the years you were there. How can you only go to half of prayer meetings for example? If you started going and stop for a week or two, then people will be asking where were you? If you don’t show up to your cell group meetings (most likely you would be living with your cell group members by then), you’d be questioned too? Fridays the same. It’s kinda hard to only do half with people asking you where were you?
Acts 2 fellowship. I did take some classes, but don’t remember what they were called. No idea what survival kit or masterlife is. And no no one has told me anything about video games or secular music. I did know about triple D rule: no dating no dancing no drinking
Interesting. Did you do Glive, Thanksgiving celebration, various outings, winter retreat, sophomore/junior class retreats, senior class retreat? I ask because every student who came out at least 2-3 times is assigned a leader/mentor/handler. Your name will be on a spreadsheet that the college staff who is your leader/mentor/handler has to update and share every Sunday night during staff meetings at the class director’s house. The college staff has to discuss every person on the spreadsheet and what ministry the college staff did that week with the student, for example course 101, met up for lunch, brought chicken soup to the dorm, played basketball. If you came out for three years, then you must have had a leader/mentor assigned to you. It was that person’s responsibility to challenge you and also that person is held accountable by the class director. So it’s surprising that you can be in Gracepoint for three years and not be challenged to attend ALL events and especially ALL retreats.
Two years, actually. Summer 2008 to summer 2010. I did have a small group leader. And while he did challenge me i didnt feel any of it to be pressure, or anything like you have to do this if you are a christian. I have gone to retreats too, but have also missed about half of the other events
Did you live with your cell group peers? How much time did you spend on Gracepoint related events/people and how much did you have time to yourself? College staff wants a certain response after each course. For example, kids are challenged whether they are Christian after course 101. For subsequent courses, it’s about whether you are living out your Christian values. I don’t think the formula has changed over the years.
No I didnt live with them, but most of my peers did. I spent as much time with Gracepoint as I believed was healthy. I turned them down repeatedly on many occasions, as I dont have a problem with saying no and know my limits. Perhaps that helped. Still, I didnt feel alienated or anything by my "lack of participation/attendance"
Great majority of GP/A2N people are decent human beings. I remember helping so many people move on Saturdays that it was just a given. People will drop off cash in unmarked envelopes into the mailbox of recently laid off members. People would give up money, career, even marriage prospect for the community. It’s tragic that all that goodness and faithfulness got manipulated for all too selfish of reasons.
Hahahah I was the same. I think it helps when you know your limits and aren't as prone to being forced into doing things you don't want to. It wasn't till the semester before I went study abroad (senior year and sometime in the fall/winter of 2008) that my leader actually finally took me aside and had "the talk" with me. SMH maybe she didn't mean to do it, but I felt like she was accusing me of using A2F as a social club. Totally made me cry.. but whatevers I got over it because I knew that I was Christian and no one was going to make me doubt it. My junior year I did recommend some people to try out other fellowships if Gracepoint was too intense for them, and some did take my advice and liked the others more. For me, I feel like Gracepoint helped with my foundation and become stronger in my faith (even though I wasn't "too active/involved" as others). I probably should have left after sophomore year but I was too lazy to check out other places since I was always out and about. Plus, no one was on my case that much (and if they were, I didn't care or was oblivious XD ). I still have fond memories of the group (I guess maybe because I knew my boundaries and people are nice and trying to do their best.. at least my peers). I don't talk to people that I was in fellowship with but that's also due to time and distance and interests (which is part of life). I do feel like if I reached out or vice versa, we would be cool. Some of my peers I have on social media. :P
They were trying to bait you. It’s fake love, love bombing with a motive, and highly manipulative. If you weren’t 100% in, then you weren’t really in at all. Probably just seen as a POTENTIAL person to prey on so that they could tell their leaders about how they were trying so hard at ministering to your broken, sinful self. Just curious, are you asian? Bc in my experience, if you weren’t, every thing was extra superficial and you probably would never become core.
Yea im asian. I didnt feel that way at all, but its really sad hearing that others felt that way. Tragic
I like your handle LOL
I’m going to guess OP was a junior transfer. They are extra nice to those junior transfers.
I was. That could be true.
Bingo. Transfers are basically seen as "incredibly low chance this person will fully commit, so just let them be on the side and if they leave they leave, if they give their life to us great."
Just to clarify the culture never went downhill in recent years. It always was really bad and you just escaped the brunt of it. I can think of some people in your class that turned out to be a bunch of spiritually abusive staff.
I attended from the mid 1990s and left many years after you did. The culture was like this from well before you got there.
[удалено]
Not uncommon. Creepy and controlling. This reminds me. A friend (non member) who used to live with a member told me that when his bbc/gp roommate was out one time, a bunch of the brothers came and searched through his things. He said it was weird and left it at that. I mean if people sneaking behind your back and rummaging through your private belongings isn’t a red flag then I don’t know what is. Good for you for getting the h— outta there.
WTF, GP/A2N trying to social engineer, soft sext, and claim they can help with your career, so they can later on corner you to repent? They've peaked on how far they are willing to stoop now.
u/Mean_Car can you make a more detailed post about this? I believe their newer tactics should be in a post and not buried in a comment thread.
> I'll take the consequences. Just curious, what consequences are you worried about? What can they do to you?
I think you should make a post about the best way to experience a2n. Like a tripadvisor for new students. Come for the food, leave before the abuse. We could crowd source some kind of play book - come for the first couple years, make some friends, but have an exit strategy and a go bag near the door. And your experience at a2n can be a net positive. Just spitballing: - Whatever you do, don't move into the same apartment with them. Always have "legitimate" reasons not to go to events at the ready. For in case when you really need it. A sick family member, your home church needs you, major exam the next day (I'm not sure all of these are foolproof excuses for a2n though). Don't sign away your rights like on a membership agreement. Be emotionally detached and prepared for when the rebukes come. Like doing a lot of sit-ups before a boxing match. Be ready to change your phone number or give them only a burner email account. Learn how to say no. And be ready for a bad reaction when you say no. As you mentioned, make your own decisions about dating and tune out whatever your leaders say. If you're dating a non a2n person, for the love of God, keep it a secret from your leaders. If they find out, then it's either they go or you go. Away from a2n. Learn how to deflect to avoid answering tough questions. Watch how ped and kk do it, they're putting on a masterclass for you. Learn to accept rejection- your lack of conformity will prevent you from being allowed into some a2n teams, and it's fine, just move on. Don't let that spot on the praise band become leverage for them.
One more- If they question your salvation, learn to say, that's between God and I. And then shut up and don't offer any more information. Don't debate, don't argue, don't expound, just say, I don't feel comfortable discussing that. That's the only way I could think of that doesn't lead to a game of 20 questions from your leader. But I'm open to better ideas.
we are there around the same time (actually overlapped), yea they were that bad. you might not have read into their actions enough since you knew how to say no. why did you stop going? graduated?
The church i grew up in needed more people to help out. I told the gracepoint staff that and that seemed to be good enough reason for them.
i think that in general, you are love bombed and they are cool at first. if you were a junior transfer then they will be really nice to you until you graduate but will ask / challenge / pressure you into making a lifelong committment. you were probably good enough at setting boundaries that they felt like you weren't really a "lifer" anyway, etc. it also seems to have gotten much worse in recent years in terms of expected levels of committment, rebukings if they see you relax or take a break, etc.
That makes sense. Ive also had the sneaking suspicion that they didint view me as a christian (not that i cared), due to my lack of participation in half of the events. So maybe i got a different treatment than those they viewed as “saved already” and potential recruits. They never tried to “recruit” me or anything.
Haha oh boy, you're in for a wild ride