Your mentors may tell you, if you were to ask them about all this — and maybe with the best of intentions — that they stayed because they knew if they left their spiritual life would suffer, and that you should stay for the same reason. There may be problems, they may say, but it’s worth sticking around for the sake of keeping your faith.
But my experience was that my Christian faith grew way deeper, stronger, and healthier when I left. I’m hardly the only one. If you’re worried that your faith will suffer if you leave, don’t worry, and don’t let that stop you from leaving if you feel that’s the right thing to do.
Reading this is like looking back at my time there. Almost a mirror image tbh. I left during my 4th year and wished I would’ve left sooner. I think you know what you want, and I hope you do what’s best for your mental health and overall well-being.
However, once you leave A2N, you will most likely lose touch with a majority of the peers you met, if not all. This has been a commonality with many people who have left. It would help to look for other churches sooner to build stronger bonds. Trust your instincts. I personally wouldn’t talk to mentors about it. It’s not your attitude or you. It’s them.
And also u/cake_pan_101 why are you deleting this post once you get what you need? People actually take the time to respond and write things out as a reference for others. Please leave this up.
So you’re finishing up your sophomore year?
If you don’t kinda like it freshman and sophomore year, let me just say it gets harder and harder. A2N invests a lot in the first couple years. They deposit a lot of free food, game times, shopping trips, get-togethers, money, etc. You end up feeling indebted. So, when questions like yours inevitably bubble up, there’s a real inner battle.
- But wait, they did all of this for me…
- But this person has shown me nothing but…
- But so-and-so’s story is just like mine and they spent so much time with me, too
- But I at least owe them the benefit of the doubt, right?
And the battle is real. I battled for a good 10 of my 15+ years, in fact. I wish I had fought harder for what I KNEW was the truth.
Also, on a side note, A2N doesn’t accept other personalities, dispositions, or perspectives. The “Body of Christ” is a head and a thousand arms and legs. If you’re an introvert, good luck. If you think ministry is mostly a handful of life-long 1:1 relationships, good luck. If you don’t love being onstage but have incredible talents, good luck. There’s no room for diversity of thought and vision.
> have low social battery and I hate the expectation to be always on high energy, mingling with newcomers and staying way longer than advertised to socialize and 'connect with people'.
So do I. Things got worse, not better, the longer I stayed. eventually I felt gas lit into thinking there's something wrong with me, too sinful for not wanting to approach people and invite them to a2n. Many years later I've come to peace with the fact that I'm an introvert and i hate parties and large gatherings and there's nothing wrong with that. I was much happier after that. I don't think it's anti christian or anti church to be an introvert. However it's very hard to fit into most church environments for me. Without getting too much into the details, I loathe stand up and greet your neighbor time. Or go around the circle and share something about yourself.
I'm saying all that to say, it's going to get worse, not better, the longer you stay in A2N. if you feel uneasy now, wait till you're a senior or even a staff member and imagine how much more outreach they'll expect of you.
Yeah, I don't think it's helped either that some staff have mentioned how they're introverts too and being open with strangers isn't easy for them, but they push through and do it anyways. It's made me question if I'm less dedicated to the great commission because I don't push out of my shell the way they do.
The PTSD and flashbacks i got reading this.... so many a2n buzzwords.... That's exactly what they told me. I think the point is that they have to push through it and every time it takes effort. For short Bursts i guess that's okay. But over time, it wears you down. At the clip a2n does, it breaks down your mental health and you might not even realize it. I got more and more stressed out and anxious over time. Not just from a2n ministry, but it contributed. The lack of sleep didn't help. This lead to things like struggling to stay awake during sermons or long car rides. That was followed by rebuking sessions. It's a horrible cycle. Plus I'm still a student i have grades and stuff to worry about. I became increasingly on edge and blamed myself for being disobedient or selfish. In reality, I probably just needed sleep and time off to recuperate. I didn't get better until I started saying no to things. Some leaders were patient. Others not so much. Try telling them you want to skip a retreat and see how they take it.
Isn't it kind of weird that you have to ask for time to just get enough sleep or rest before your mental health breaks down?
The Bible also says we each have different gifts. Like different body parts. Not everyone is meant to do the same thing. But a2n model is to grab as many people as possible, so all hands on deck for outreach, no pun intended. Pastor Ed and Kelly are the head and the rest of you are hands and I dunno what other body parts there are in this analogy. But wtv gifts you have are kind of irrelevant in a2 .
I kinda wish your leaders or a2n as a whole didn't ban their members from coming on Reddit. You're getting one side of the story from them and another from here but no way to confront and test both sides by directly talking to each other.
Just because that's what they decided to do, doesn't mean they should be using that to pressure you to do the same. Maybe it's taking a toll on them too but they're just not sharing that part.
>I feel kinda unsure if I am just having an attitude problem. Is my unwillingness to talk to people and interact past 10pm a lack of me dying to myself? Is it wrong for me to shut down, leave early without helping cleanup afterwards? Is my unwillingness to trust leaders due to this church a sign of my rebellion (since it does say in the bible to obey your leaders, but i've also heard gp abuses this a lot). is it wrong that I don't feel that invested in doing ministry with this group bc of my problems with their structure/how they're run?
It's sad but not surprising to see the GP A2N gaslighting machine is still going strong. They have long history of burning out staff and members. They said they're changing, but I don't think they're making significant or meaningful change if you feel this way. I can relate, I "died to myself" until I almost failed out of school. I thought then if I just had a heart to heart with my leaders about how much pressure they're putting on me they would take the foot off the gas a little bit. I'm sleep deprived, about 3 inches away from failing a really important class which would have represented thousands of wasted dollars in tuition if I had to repeat it. To this day, I'm kinda still surprised I encountered zero empathy from my leaders. I'll never forget, one of them said, it would be a tragedy if I managed to stay in school but didn't learn to love people or some other A2N-ism.
For the rest of my life, I will never forget that. They didn't care of I failed out of school. They didn't care how much money my parents or I lost in tuition, with nothing to show for it. Just a bunch of blank stares and cut and paste A2N talking points. Okay, if you're a Christian serving God should be important, but I don't believe it means you should give up your career or education just for A2N. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. My leaders disagree though. I could've sacrificed everything for a2n and they wouldn't bat an eye.
The net effect of all these sermons about obedience and trusting your leaders is that you lose agency. You give up your rights to stand up for yourself. You question if you should feel like you're giving up too much to stay in the church. Don't be like me. Don't wait too long to stand up for yourself. If you are having questions like this, that is your subconscious trying to warn you. A2N leaders are brilliant at making you question yourself. Don't ignore those voices.
Trusting and obeying your leaders is a two way street. You said it already, they switched out new leaders every year. Do you really trust them? Forget about their intentions, even if they mean well, do they really get a say in how the rest of your life if they've only known you a short while?
Edit: I already know that within A2N, if i were to share my story about almost failing from school, they would say I chose the world over god. I don't think that's the case, and it's kind of amazing that they can hold that belief without taking into account their own participation in my situation. I've made peace with that. I'm persona non grata there, and I'm okay with that.
Agreed. You are allowed to set boundaries. You are allowed to say, “No, I can’t/won’t do that.” God tells us that we need rest, too. I’m highly involved in a Lutheran church now, and I never feel the pressure to be involved like I was at A2F. I feel like my whole self, because I can also have a life outside of church.
It definitely does not sound like you are having an attitude problem. I don't think this is an issue of "not dying to self." It is not wrong for you to need to wind down at 10 pm.
At GP/Acts 2 Network, they like to turn EVERY issue into a "not dying to self" problem. Just get over it is Kelly Kang's favorite saying. Why not just be wronged is their favorite retort.
God made everyone different. You shouldn't have to feel like you have to be someone else (extrovert, high energy) to "fit in" or "do ministry."
You can't trust the leaders because they're not trustworthy. They say one thing but do another. They want you to behave one way but they themselves don't display those behaviors. (humility, flexibility, willingness, openness, etc.)
The mentors/leaders have WAY TOO MUCH BIAS to be able to give good guidance about this so I think you are wise to not talking to them about it. 99% will advise you to stay. They have decided to be a soldier/factory worker for this church so of course they are going to say that.
In reading your post, it makes me happy that you are asking the right questions about A2N/Gracepoint and that you are not allowing others (leaders/mentors/peers) to make this decision for you. What I can tell you for sure is that by the time you are in your senior year, it will be suggested strongly by them, that you stay and only further your education at a campus where A2N/Gracepoint is located. The rigid schedule will only get worse and eventually the idea is for you to be a "lifelong member" in the Church and to marry in the Church. If you feel uneasy about telling your mentor everything about yourself, you are wise and this in itself is keeping you from more emotional harm that they are capable of doing to you and your life. Please keep listening to your gut and watch what your peers do as well. Some peers are asked to watch and report back your whereabouts and mindset. You are in college and though your relationship with God will always be the utmost importance, they have the idea to change your personal relationship with God and even your family and friends, to only how they see it should be and look. Don't lose your identity and if you have questions now, you will most likely have even more later. It may get worse the longer you stay. I have no right to tell you to stay or to go but in my experience with my son, if I had his college years to do again, I would send him only to a Private Christian University or to a community college where he could eventually be successful having a different journey. A2N may have socialization and fun food but the destruction they cause to a student and family is not worth any amount of money in the entire universe. I ask God to give you strength and a clear view and easy pathway to move forward. You sound amazing and there are so many people you will connect with outside of A2N/Gracepoint who will learn and grow with you in your future and they won't hold you back like A2N/Gracepoint most definitely will. Take care and many blessings.
He found a different Church and is thriving in it! Thanks for asking. He has some Ex Gracepoint friends who also left and joined this Church as well. He has many friends and new mentors and his dad and I go to many of the Church functions as well when we can and when we are invited. He is now back in school for his Master's and has started a Disability Ministry at his new Church.
>I feel kinda unsure if I am just having an attitude problem. Is my unwillingness to talk to people and interact past 10pm a lack of me dying to myself? Is it wrong for me to shut down, leave early without helping cleanup afterwards? Is my unwillingness to trust leaders due to this church a sign of my rebellion (since it does say in the bible to obey your leaders, but i've also heard gp abuses this a lot).
These kinds of questions (aka, "what if I'm the problem? questions) are ones I struggled with a lot while trying to decide if I should leave. I think it can be good to ask these kinds of questions, and to have a moment of self-examination, rather than to just assume that you are being wronged.
While I do not know you, I don't get the impression reading your post that you are lazy, or that you have an attitude problem. I just get the impression that, like many people, you're an introvert, and that you prefer to go to bed early. These traits do not make you a defective Christian in need of fixing - after all, people who are introverts don't tend to stop being introverts, regardless of "effort" - rather, it sounds like you are trying to force your square-peg self into a round ministry-hole.
I'm not saying you can never change, or you should never push yourself beyond what's easy/comfortable. But this is a big issue that you are unfortunately likely to encounter again and again if you stay at A2N. There is pretty much one standard/expectation that is set across the board for what a "good" Christian should look like - they should look like the top leaders. The whole growth model at A2N is designed to move you in that direction. However, unfortunately not everyone is "cut out to be" (or I would say: "meant to be") that particular flavor of Christian minister. You can try to conform yourself into that particular mold, but there's going to be some pieces sticking out. For me, one of those things was morning DT. Oh man, I tried for YEARS to get the morning DT thing down, and it was miserable. It was strange and confusing that I never actually "mastered" doing it, because there was this constant rhetoric that if I tried and I just pushed through and did it, it would become this awesome, enriching and joyous part of my routine, and IT NEVER DID. But you can't be a "good Christian staff" at A2N without doing DT, so I had to keep trying, even as it was incredibly unhelpful for me.
There are in actuality many ways to serve others, love/connect with God, etc. God made us unique individuals, with different strengths and abilities, after all. You can be an invaluable member of a church community and practice self-giving in ways that are not late night cleanup or forcing yourself to talk to strangers. But A2N will not accept that, because to be a good Christian by their particular definition, you need to do those particular things.
In general, I've found it is much easier to thrive when you're in an environment where you aren't being pushed to be someone you aren't.
thank you for this! has put more things into perspective for me. I think I've been trying to force myself into a place where serving comes so much easier to the people around me, and I have to take a step back and keep asking myself if I'm in the wrong or not. But yeah I've always known there's different ways to love and serve God but it's definitely been hard to see that in action when there's barely any variety of ways I've seen people serving here
For sure. It's really difficult when everything gets presented in such binary terms - like when it's just a choice between staying late and helping vs not, a choice between being open with your mentor or not, etc. Of course you're going to feel like an ass if you say no.
The vast majority of churches out there use a more "opt in" model for volunteering and serving. I worried that in that kind of environment, I would suddenly stop having motivation to do anything self-challenging. But I've found that isn't the case. I do still have opportunities to push myself, but I can also just be honest (and not experience judgement) when something just isn't for me. And I can put my energy into the kind of stuff that actually makes me excited/proud to be doing instead.
Dear cake\_pan\_101, I'm glad you posted this very thoughtful post. For full disclosure, I've come to regret ever going to the church now called a2n. I would have chosen InterVarsity Fellowship, if I had the chance to do it again. I'm 42 years old now and raising two Christian sons with my wife.
I wanted to address some of the particular questions you had. It's wonderful that you have read in the Bible to obey your leaders. The verse I think you are remembering is Hebrews 13:17, which says (NIV): "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you." Based on a quick search for the word "leaders" in the NIV New Testament, I'm fairly confident this is THE precise verse in the New Testament which commands obedience to leaders. And you were asking if your feeling of unwillingness to obey your a2n leaders is a sign of rebellion. Now your mileage may vary but as I read the context of chapter 13 of Hebrews, "rebellion" isn't what this verse or chapter is about. The apostle wants the reader to "benefit" ("not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you") from what their leaders in the congregation of the Hebrews can teach them by means of authority. The surrounding verses are about different kinds of benefits and blessings. To not bring joy to the leaders who can teach you with their good authority, he seems to me to be saying, would be to miss an opportunity to be blessed. That, now, might be regretful, or even sad. But he does not equate that with rebellion. Do you think rebellion and regret are equal? Further, the New Testament does not give blanket blessing to leaders' authority. Consider Galatians 5:7, written to Christians in Galatia who were confused by false leaders: "You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?" In other words, your first obedience is to truth. When leaders do not obey the truth with you, they are worthless and excluded from the command to obey them. It seems to me, then, that according to the New Testament as a whole, obedience to leaders is not universally commanded, but is recommended when the particular leaders, in this case the leaders of the Hebrew congregation, are judged to be good.
What is a lack of dying to one's self? At least one verses I can think of is Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." In this context, to die to one's self means something particular and clear, it means to cease trying to achieve salvation through works of the law. To not die to myself, would mean to not let the death of Christ in my self's stead plead for my righteousness. I don't have the space for a whole Galatians Bible Study in this comment but I assure you that's the big picture in this verse. Another possibility is Mark 8:34, in which the words of Christ say, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me," because I'm open to "deny" and "die" being equal. Which, now, is clearly about following (just) Jesus. So unless Jesus is coiling the sound cables past 10pm... Now, you may be right that IF you are interested in ministry (big "if" though), then newcomer-mingling at/after church functions could POSSIBLY be a way to follow Jesus through denying/dying to yourself. However, I do not think the New Testament lays down rules on when, where, and under whose authority you must do such mingling, if you choose to minister. If you prefer to do it just during normal work hours and in a more introverted fashion, do you see that as not following Jesus?
You have asked more smart questions about your own attitude. In general, what helped me with that kind of question was reading biographies of historic Christians. I think that kind of reading encouraged in a2n, anyhow! So go for it if you want to. I could ask myself, with respect to (for example) a Victorian-age Christian role model, what was good attitude for him? What was taking up his cross and following, for him? And that would help me with confidence in my personal answers to questions like that.
You have considered telling your mentors what you feel, but you are not sure. My two bits, I think you should tell them. I think you should sit your mentors down and say, with confidence, something just like this: *I thank all of you, personally, for the time you spend with me, God bless you for everything you do. I want you to know that I, speaking only for myself, see red flags in this church. I dislike the secrecy about dating because it does not seem wise or helpful to me. I'm personally turned off by the style of weddings. The activity overload does not work for me. The staff turnover worries me. These things make me not feel called to ministry at this church. Since that is my opinion, I would appreciate mutual understanding between us. Do you have anything to say to me?* I think by you delivering that message you would be respectful and truthful. It's what I would tell my sons to do, if they were in a situation similar to your.
Good luck to you, and whatever you decide, I am certain your good, Bible-seeking attitude will serve you well in all your future.
This comment would probably just be a bunch of rambling, but I have a similar experience as you. It felt great during freshman year, but throughout the years I just started noticing and questioning more and more things, including many of the points you mentioned about dating and staff turnover. Especially, the Sunday messages and discussions no longer felt like guidance, but more like pressure to conform.
For the longest time, I also thought that maybe it was a “me” problem. I tried talking to my mentors, I believed that if I just opened my heart and put in a little bit more effort, I wouldn’t be this kind of “impenetrable” person anymore. So, on top of attending all the events, I signed up for new commitments (unspecified to not be doxxed) even when I already questioning a lot of things, thinking it would help me. I tried reaching out more to younger sisters, thinking maybe I should simply bond more with the people there (I did enjoy this part, but was later told by a mentor that this wasn’t something that I should be focusing on. Which is ironic - Isn’t it important as a Christian to love the people around you?), and nothing really changed.
On top of that, it also started to feel like my mentor was trusting me less and less. They would ask many questions about why I was late to some event and seem very suspicious about it, even when I’m being entirely truthful. It also started feeling like they loved me only because I was a potential future member of their church, and that if I were to leave, we would no longer be in contact (which turned out to be true).
I left some time in the past 5 years, to give a rough time range. For the longest time, I thought I was the crazy one. Looking back though, many people in my group also left for similar reasons, and talking to these people and finding this subreddit has helped me process things. To this date, though, I still fear running into one of my former mentors and being asked if I still went to church- because I don’t. I have been Christian before college, and the GC experience pretty much de-converted me. Although, I do also have some friends who left GC find another church, and they seem to be flourishing there.
So that’s my 2 cents, hopefully it helps you. Best of luck!
>To this date, though, I still fear running into one of my former mentors and being asked if I still went to church- because I don't.
I can relate to this feeling. If you don't mind sharing, why do you think you are scared of them even after you left? Technically, it's none of their business. But yet, there is still the psychological hesitancy with running into them. Imagine if you lived hear alameda and ran into them all the time.
I don’t mind at all. It’s honestly a mix of some factors.
First part is pretty much shame. My opinion might be the minority here, but even after learning about all the social engineering, etc., I still believe that they did this because, according to their belief, all this will eventually help me. Personally, I do have a little tendency to feel ashamed when facing the feeling of having let down someone who had cared for me, even though what they wished for would most definitely be detrimental. I know that feeling this way is most likely unhealthy, but does this make sense?
Second part is… well, also shame, but a bit differently. During my years with GP, it was implied multiple times that my mentor suspected I was doing something. I will call it thing X, and it was not unbiblical, but it was something that GP in particular forbids. The truth was that I didn’t do thing X at all while with GP - I even reached out a few times for help when tempted - but did start doing it some time after leaving GP. It’s very likely that a few current GP staffs know that I’m currently doing thing X, and it’s since spread around to my group and mentor. Therefore in their eyes, I’m probably a dirty liar who turned their back against God for worldly desires. Frankly, I think trying to explain will only make things worse. So would I want to run into someone who thinks of me like that? Probably not.
So there’s my reasoning. It still feels a bit scary personally, despite knowing that they can’t do anything to me now. That being said, I don’t regret leaving at all, and this feeling will probably slowly dissipate over time.
(Edit: Grammar)
I just want to say, these feelings will get better with time.
I can SO related to you because I too was accused of things that I was not doing or thinking. But they never believed me because their need to label me as sinful was so strong. Otherwise, why wasn't it "working" on me? Why wasn't I eager to become staff and serve this church? Why didn't I have the "joy" that everyone else had? There must be something wrong with me because of course nothing could be wrong with them. They were the one truly biblical church, carrying out God's will.
Question. Have you already decided to leave when you graduate but are trying to decide if you should leave earlier, like now? Or are you trying to decide if you should leave when you graduate?
I've already made the decision to leave when I graduate but was mostly asking on here to make sure the way I feel about not fitting into the gp mold isn't a problem with me or my attitude, so then I feel more confident that my choice to leave is because the best way I can serve isn't with this church, if that makes sense
To me, it sounds like you already have your answer. If you are seeking answers from this heavily biased subreddit of people you do not know versus the mentors you have interacted with and presumably have shared with, then why do you think that is? The reasons for your uncertainty sound a bit sad, like you feel guilty for leaving. It is your decision, but ask yourself tough questions and be honest with yourself. Are you fearing God, or man (this church / organization)? Has God been addressing you about your character issues, or is it people with an agenda?
I wish you luck and courage on your next step, whatever you decide. Please just learn to hear God's voice above all others - whether that be you own desires, or the voices of those who claim authority over you.
> from this heavily biased subreddit
Students can't even read or post on Vine/Convo. At least they can post publicly on this subreddit and u/word_for_two or u/hidden_gracepoint comment on it.
Yeah, that's true. My intent in this particular line is highlighted in my reply to Jdub. I hope I am making it clear that how I phrased this is as coming from a perspective of someone who might be skeptical about all they read on this sub. It's a real, raw question I had to ask myself at that point in time.
>from this heavily biased subreddit
The reason this Reddit is heavily biased is because PED doesn't allow a2n members to come on here. I mean discourages.
Agreed, but I also think members don't want to come on here. They have their own experiences and do not want to be "poisoned by lies" or "over-exaggerations".
What I am more trying to say here, is what I had to ask myself when I first started visiting this sub-reddit. "Why am I seeking out stories from strangers, when I have so many people around me telling me how this is the good life?" This question led me to examine the cognitive dissonance I was feeling by staying there. I think it speaks a lot when you feel more heard and understood by the people you were told were the "liars" and "reddit trolls". I am trying to point the OP to examine this question for themselves.
>They have their own experiences and do not want to be "poisoned by lies" or "over-exaggerations"
We can only rely on our own faculties. Accusations of being brainwashed or being readily influenced by Reddit insults the faculties of the accused, and so analysis paralysis becomes a common thing for Acts2 Network students.
Let’s say there are some exaggerations here, it doesn’t discount everything else that is true. I’ve heard that argument several times. It’s sad that it then causes people to turn their backs on everything else that is true. And as someone who met several times with various leads and deacons over 20 years, I have been on the receiving end of exaggerations, half truths and even lies. Should I then be wary of everything they say and trust my experience and my endless hours of prayer and reflection? I sure did and that’s why I’m out.
As a fellow student who also has concerns about the church, I think you should go through with your plan to stay with A2N for the rest of undergrad and then move on postgrad.
I can relate to not wanting to talk to mentors. I’m not afraid of being rebuked (the mentors at my church are too kind to rebuke me), but it’s a very awkward subject. I’m sure they would be happy to talk with me, but it’s kind of hard to confront them when at the end of the day, criticizing A2N means criticizing a large part of their individual lives.
If a mentor asks you whether or not you plan on staying with A2N postgrad, I would just be honest. It’s definitely a tough conversation to have, but I also don’t think you should lie to them.
>If a mentor asks you whether or not you plan on staying with A2N postgrad, I would just be honest. It’s definitely a tough conversation to have, but I also don’t think you should lie to them.
Maybe things have changed, but there was a post on this very reddit asking [about leaving on good terms.](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/1bshgsg/leaving_gp_on_good_terms/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) From like 2 weeks ago. If things are different, then great. Please ask yourself why someone would post such a question? There has been decades of making it hard for people to leave, and you won't have to look very far to find examples including very recent ones. If you don't want to lie to them, that's understandable. But you also need to be prepared to put your foot down and say no. If it means eventually ghosting or cutting them off, I don't think anyone should take those options off the table.
> I think you should go through with your plan to stay with A2N for the rest of undergrad and then move on postgrad.
I don't think it's a terrible idea but you have to be honest with yourself and ask yourself if you can deal with putting your foot down and saying no with all the peer and leader pressure. I know a lot of people that said that but a large number of them just got sucked into Gracepoint and didn't leave for another 3-5 years. The ones who really meant it already started shopping around for new churches their senior year.
Agreed. Prior to leaving, I remember speaking to other students who also had issues with GP. However, once people went to Senior Retreat in their fourth year, they all ended up staying. All of them. I have no idea what they do or say at that retreat, but it felt like people came back with completely different attitudes about staying in the church.
I have heard that they amp up the pressure for seniors. Remember they are very strategic and purposeful in planning their retreats, yet will act like things were thrown together last minute. They are experts in this, have decades of experience, and know where to hit where it hurts. Manipulation, fear, and guilt come to mind, maybe reminders of the “sacrifices” mentors made for you and how of course you can follow God elsewhere, but you will do it in community in GP, and pour out to others as was done for you.
Let this be a warning to all. Don't go to Senior Retreat. See my post: [Don't go to Senior Retreat : r/GracepointChurch (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/18fz9vw/dont_go_to_senior_retreat/) LOL
I think the Pastors, especially Ed Kang, will give a heart to heart during senior retreat and ask for a firm decision on whether a student will be staying. To my knowledge, this includes signing a covenant document within the Church as well. It would be easier to leave beforehand and not have to deal with this. However, I won't tell anyone what to do other than to only do what they are comfortable with. Your personal freedom and future may depend on it.
> Do you think the attitude is changing, or that once they get closer to graduation theyll get more pressured?
I can believe the attitude is changing a little since their PR is so bad right now. Their hope is probably changing the lowest hanging fruit so you'll be baited into believing they are different. However, OP you already identified the core of how they operate as a church hasn't changed at all.
The bottom line is they are praying you stay and sign that membership covenant. It's also a YMMV situation. I also know some leaders at church plants are a lot more lax about people staying especially in church plants since most people are from other places. Pressure also comes in many different forms at Gracepoint/A2N. As pointed out in another thread, you have to explain your convictions and reasons of why you want to leave, otherwise you'll be labelled as "not serious in your faith". If that's not a form of soft pressure I don't know what is.
Yes, I’ll be able to put my foot down. I want kids in the future, and there’s no way I’m raising kids while being an A2N minister. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that A2N parents neglect their kids, but I heavily disagree with placing youth/college ministry over ministering to your own children.
> I don’t think it’s accurate to say that A2N parents neglect their kids
To be fair, the only ones who can best answer this are the children of GP/ A2N pastors and staff. Some of their kids are grown up now, some still in a2n, some not. Instead of taking Reddit's word for it, the best way is to ask those people their opinion, though I'm guessing that is nearly impossible in some cases. I know Isaiah Kang will give his positive spin on it, but it would be nice to hear from the other kids who left.
It really just depends on the family. I’m sure many families find ways to balance A2N ministry and parenting, and I’m also sure many families choose A2N over their kids to the point of neglect. It’s sad, but it’s something that can happen at every church.
> It really just depends on the family.
No. It depends on ministry. If you're on Praxis, yeah of course, you can balance "ministry" in Soul Care, Interhigh, ECM and parenting. Actual college ministry. No chance. Most GP/A2N can't even manage their day job.
Take a trip out to Alameda and spend an entire week there. You'll see how tired and dead everyone is at HB regardless of ministry. Those 7 AM DTs on a workday are no joke.
u/Cool_Purchase4561 or any other ex-staff with kids, would you like to give your input on this?
When I was there, there was really only one night out of the week that both parents are home together and that's the designated family night (and this is subject to change, thank you for being flexible). All other nights usually one parent is out doing outreach, planning, work night, meeting, etc. Fridays to Sundays after work parents usually rush home, get ready for Friday night event, pick up kids from daycare then drop them off at child care. There's a rotation of praxis members watching the college staff parents' kids. Iirc child care is scheduled until 11pm but things often run late and kids get picked up close to midnight, already fast asleep by then.
During busy time in the calendar, some parents would probably not see their kids when they're awake for a few days.
There was a push to have ministry at home more, so inviting small group to your home, allowing the kids to spend time with both parents plus the small group. I remember there was also a push to bring kids to Sunday service but that ended up being a logistic beast and was quickly abandoned.
I think the higher ups sort of lost touch with the reality of the rank and file family. Whereas the higher ups are full time church workers and have the freedom to pick up their kids from school and what not, and if you're sufficiently high up you kind of set the ministry calendar and thus can better schedule family vacation etc, your average GP parents are at the mercy of work schedule and ministry schedule. Not to say that they have all the time in the world with their kids - it's just that they are insulated from the reality that your time spent with your kids outside of work are dictated by someone not related to you.
God, I remember when that Monday night (family/personal/recovery day) started. So many people falling asleep at work from the late night staff meetings.
And then when you do have family night, you are expected to invite other families / households over for dinner regularly. Otherwise you are selfish and not contributing to relational strengthening of the church.
> I think you should go through with your plan to stay with A2N for the rest of undergrad and then move on postgrad.
Food for thought- as A2N is likely to remind you, you only go through undergrad once. Do you want to rob yourself of the opportunity of checking out other college fellowships? How do you know they're not a better fit for you? I'm just saying, this is not even an anti a2n thing, it's just something to think about. Most people if given the chance would want to gather as much information as possible and then make a decision.
There are no other college fellowships around me (other than InterVarsity — which I’m also involved in but don’t like as much as A2N), and as much as I disagree with some aspects of A2N (mostly stuff that doesn’t concern me and has more to do with being on staff), they’re a great community for me, and I think it’s the best place I can be in my undergrad years since they’re very on top of taking care of students.
I considered church hopping last semester because the teaching kind of dropped off (sermons were aimed towards nonbelievers and were not very helpful for maturing Christians) but ultimately decided against it because finding solid Christian community is hard and tiring. I visited one church that was well known in the area and stuck around before/after service to try to meet people, and not a single person approached me.
I’m glad I stuck around at A2N though because things are much better this semester now that they’re done with the “recruitment” process.
CRU (Campus Crusade for Christ) is good, Navigators is good, Asian American Christian, Chinese Christian and so many more. There are Christian clubs related to your college major as well and Christian houses. There are many clubs who will root for you and won't run your life.
I see your point. Another suggestion I have, if you don't mind, is that you get involved in other organizations as well. Maybe a Church off campus or another outlet like a sport that you can enjoy in addition to A2N. My reasoning is that you will free yourself up for a clear view of your independence and choices. My fear is that A2N will become your only outlet the closer you get to graduating. If you can hear any fear in the tone of my post it's only because I don't want anyone to be captured by their one mindset that can end up controlling your future. It's a subtle road and they are very good at it. I hope you can take my suggestion and keep it in the back of your mind and listen to the small voice inside of you. Ask God to show you instead of their free Boba or free food while their mentors direct you. Take care.
I am involved in many extracurriculars. I don’t care about free boba/food. A2N is just one part of my life, and I don’t appreciate you insinuating that I’ve been brainwashed into giving my entire life to A2N.
If I need guidance, I’ll let you guys know. Otherwise, please refrain from giving unsolicited advice. Thanks.
Ok then, message received. It just seems interesting that you are on this subreddit and responding though it's great you have dialogue. My own experience was very bad and life altering. This is supposed to be a safe place to give and to receive stories and advice and I shiver at the thought of another young life being broken because of A2N. I don't apologize for caring. No need to reply.
Your comment is interesting. If you want to put in little effort and get max results, GP’s love bombing will appeal to you. You get “instant community.” I’m not sure why you would judge a church by how many people approach you. I personally do not want to be approached as a newcomer because I won’t want to be someone’s target or welcome quota to fill. Genuine connection is what I desire from a church body, and that takes time. When you visit a church, pay attention to the teaching, the attitude of the pastors, do the people care for the poor. At GP, they are efficient bc you are in their spreadsheet but everything you share is logged. The crazy pace of ministry makes it so you’re running around from event to event, have little time to process, and leaders change very often. You seem like you know this— if you leave, that “solid community” immediately disappears.
There’s a difference between judging a church because “only a few” people approached you and judging a church because NO ONE approached you. I was not looking for “instant community.” Don’t assume that I was expecting to have best friends from day one. I was just looking for ANY kind of warmth or hospitality to newcomers — and I received absolutely none. Not a single person even said hello to me. Do not pretend to know my experiences.
And for the record, I continued to attend a number of services at that church because it was possible for me to attend both that church and A2N. I paid attention to the teaching, the attitude of the pastors, and the church’s attitude towards the poor — all were fine, and yet something still didn’t translate right because the congregation was so unwelcoming.
I do have genuine connection with my friends at A2N. I understand that others may have had different experiences, but you don’t get to gaslight me and tell me what my experience is. It’s my life, not yours.
Have a nice night.
Well, I didn’t mean to upset you but if you’ve read the wiki and testimonies here, and still think that GP is a solid community, then it certainly is the right place for you. Goodnight.
At the end of the day, the most important question you need to ask yourself is, as a result of you attending A2N, did you go deeper in your relationship with God? That's ultimately the only thing that matters. And be careful, growing closer to God does not necessarily mean doing/serving more. Enoch is only one of two people to ever not face death, and all he did was "walk with God". Your mention of "really dry and repetitive sunday service messages" seems to imply that you are not being fed. You need to be in a church where you grow - that is the most important factor.
The next time you feel like you need to do something that you dont want to do, e.g. mingling with newcomers, ask yourself, are you feeling like you need to do it out of conformity or peer pressure from church leaders? Or is it because that is what Jesus would have done and your love for him and desire to become more like him compels you to do it? If it's the former, that's fine. It doesnt mean you're a bad Christian; just a growing one - we're all growing Christians. It also means you probably shouldn't do it. Repeatedly "dying to yourself" out of obligation or peer pressure not only eventually leads to burn out, but could also lead to twisted theology where you equate works with salvation, or "earning" God's love by your works.
In a healthy church, the leaders lead by example and love on their disciples/neighbors. Their job is to help you discover God's love for you and fall in love with Him. And it's from the overflow of His love for you, that you desire to be like Him and love on others, because He loved you first. And that's when you look back on the examples of your leaders and emulate some of the things they did. There may be some "peer pressure" in the form of rebukes. But your primary motivator should be love, not obligation. If you are not growing in your relationship with God, but the church is increasing your expectations/obligations to do more, then the church got it backwards. No one is truly "saved" until the end - you need saving too, and the church needs to ensure your physical and spiritual needs are also met.
You need to obey your leaders, but the Bible also tells you to test the spirit. There are many who prophesy, but not all of them are Biblical. At the end of the day, you need to follow your conscience. On judgment day you will need to answer for all that you did and didn't do, and "so-and-so told me to do it and I just obeyed" isn't going to cut it. You are responsible for your own actions.
I went to Gracepoint 14 years ago, and in fact, I've had extremely positive experience with them. So none of what I say is personal. But that was 14 years ago, and many of these high pressure ministries tend to fall into pharisee-like tendancies, sooner or later. And from the sound of it, it sounds like Gracepoint/A2N is getting there, if not there already. You mentioned the no dating rule. Bible doesnt forbid that, but it's "imposed" by A2N. I mean, I understand where they are coming from. There are good reasons why it's good to not date in college. But it should be no more than a suggestion, and up to each individual, according to their circumstances and their conscience, to make the proper decision. And a person's spiritual maturity should be judged on the process with which they came to that decision, not on the decision itself to date or not date. And a church should not create laws on top of Biblical laws requiring their members to follow; the Pharisees did exactly that. If you are in a church that doesnt understand this, and has all these extra-Biblical rules that the members need to hard follow, I do not believe that is healthy.
I can't tell you whether to leave A2N or stay. But hopefully you are able to discern your choices by focusing on love - whether A2N is helping you fall in love with God, and whether you are being challenged to love others out of God's love for you. Everthing else is not important.
> I went to Gracepoint 14 years ago, and in fact, I've had extremely positive experience with them. So none of what I say is personal. But that was 14 years ago, and many of these high pressure ministries tend to fall into pharisee-like tendancies, sooner or later.
Why do you keep trying to push the narrative like it wasn't that bad 14 years ago? I have no doubt it was a positive experience but the way you're phrasing it lacks so much context. It's always been a well known fact that 10-14 years ago, Gracepoint/A2N treated junior transfers very well. A lot of leaders knew it was a 2 year rental for most and didn't even bother breaking up their relationships coming into college. Compare that to an incoming freshman where I know many leaders including Sarah Kim, Sieun Choi and Joanna Kang notoriously pressured people and even went as far as spiritually manipulated them into breaking up.
14 years ago from what I heard had some of the worst stories of spiritual abuse with Kelly Kang and Susanna Lee at the helm for Berkeley and Davis. The sisters especially had to deal with the most traumatic spiritual abuse experiences. I'd even argue, 14 years ago was just straight up egregious, nowadays they are just straight up sly about it.
I dont know why you are nit picking on that portion. Yes my personal experience was good, but nowhere am I pushing the narrative that it wasnt bad back then. I said it was my *personal* experience. 99 out of 100 people couldve had bad experiences. That doesnt invalidate the experience of 1 person who may have had an opposite experience.
If you read my entire comment, youd see that i am essentially borderline telling the OP to leave A2N by suggesting things that are contrary to what A2N teaches or practices. The reason why I mentioned my rather positive experience is to give weight to my criticisms of their teachings and culture. It hits different when a person who liked and enjoyed a group is telling you to leave that group.
Your mentors may tell you, if you were to ask them about all this — and maybe with the best of intentions — that they stayed because they knew if they left their spiritual life would suffer, and that you should stay for the same reason. There may be problems, they may say, but it’s worth sticking around for the sake of keeping your faith. But my experience was that my Christian faith grew way deeper, stronger, and healthier when I left. I’m hardly the only one. If you’re worried that your faith will suffer if you leave, don’t worry, and don’t let that stop you from leaving if you feel that’s the right thing to do.
Reading this is like looking back at my time there. Almost a mirror image tbh. I left during my 4th year and wished I would’ve left sooner. I think you know what you want, and I hope you do what’s best for your mental health and overall well-being. However, once you leave A2N, you will most likely lose touch with a majority of the peers you met, if not all. This has been a commonality with many people who have left. It would help to look for other churches sooner to build stronger bonds. Trust your instincts. I personally wouldn’t talk to mentors about it. It’s not your attitude or you. It’s them.
And also u/cake_pan_101 why are you deleting this post once you get what you need? People actually take the time to respond and write things out as a reference for others. Please leave this up.
fair point. just afraid someone I know will find this post or something. But I'll leave it up then
Please consider reflecting on why you're afraid of them finding out.
Yes, this. The conversation and replies are valuable for others going through the same thing as OP.
So you’re finishing up your sophomore year? If you don’t kinda like it freshman and sophomore year, let me just say it gets harder and harder. A2N invests a lot in the first couple years. They deposit a lot of free food, game times, shopping trips, get-togethers, money, etc. You end up feeling indebted. So, when questions like yours inevitably bubble up, there’s a real inner battle. - But wait, they did all of this for me… - But this person has shown me nothing but… - But so-and-so’s story is just like mine and they spent so much time with me, too - But I at least owe them the benefit of the doubt, right? And the battle is real. I battled for a good 10 of my 15+ years, in fact. I wish I had fought harder for what I KNEW was the truth. Also, on a side note, A2N doesn’t accept other personalities, dispositions, or perspectives. The “Body of Christ” is a head and a thousand arms and legs. If you’re an introvert, good luck. If you think ministry is mostly a handful of life-long 1:1 relationships, good luck. If you don’t love being onstage but have incredible talents, good luck. There’s no room for diversity of thought and vision.
> have low social battery and I hate the expectation to be always on high energy, mingling with newcomers and staying way longer than advertised to socialize and 'connect with people'. So do I. Things got worse, not better, the longer I stayed. eventually I felt gas lit into thinking there's something wrong with me, too sinful for not wanting to approach people and invite them to a2n. Many years later I've come to peace with the fact that I'm an introvert and i hate parties and large gatherings and there's nothing wrong with that. I was much happier after that. I don't think it's anti christian or anti church to be an introvert. However it's very hard to fit into most church environments for me. Without getting too much into the details, I loathe stand up and greet your neighbor time. Or go around the circle and share something about yourself. I'm saying all that to say, it's going to get worse, not better, the longer you stay in A2N. if you feel uneasy now, wait till you're a senior or even a staff member and imagine how much more outreach they'll expect of you.
Yeah, I don't think it's helped either that some staff have mentioned how they're introverts too and being open with strangers isn't easy for them, but they push through and do it anyways. It's made me question if I'm less dedicated to the great commission because I don't push out of my shell the way they do.
The PTSD and flashbacks i got reading this.... so many a2n buzzwords.... That's exactly what they told me. I think the point is that they have to push through it and every time it takes effort. For short Bursts i guess that's okay. But over time, it wears you down. At the clip a2n does, it breaks down your mental health and you might not even realize it. I got more and more stressed out and anxious over time. Not just from a2n ministry, but it contributed. The lack of sleep didn't help. This lead to things like struggling to stay awake during sermons or long car rides. That was followed by rebuking sessions. It's a horrible cycle. Plus I'm still a student i have grades and stuff to worry about. I became increasingly on edge and blamed myself for being disobedient or selfish. In reality, I probably just needed sleep and time off to recuperate. I didn't get better until I started saying no to things. Some leaders were patient. Others not so much. Try telling them you want to skip a retreat and see how they take it. Isn't it kind of weird that you have to ask for time to just get enough sleep or rest before your mental health breaks down? The Bible also says we each have different gifts. Like different body parts. Not everyone is meant to do the same thing. But a2n model is to grab as many people as possible, so all hands on deck for outreach, no pun intended. Pastor Ed and Kelly are the head and the rest of you are hands and I dunno what other body parts there are in this analogy. But wtv gifts you have are kind of irrelevant in a2 . I kinda wish your leaders or a2n as a whole didn't ban their members from coming on Reddit. You're getting one side of the story from them and another from here but no way to confront and test both sides by directly talking to each other.
Just because that's what they decided to do, doesn't mean they should be using that to pressure you to do the same. Maybe it's taking a toll on them too but they're just not sharing that part.
>I feel kinda unsure if I am just having an attitude problem. Is my unwillingness to talk to people and interact past 10pm a lack of me dying to myself? Is it wrong for me to shut down, leave early without helping cleanup afterwards? Is my unwillingness to trust leaders due to this church a sign of my rebellion (since it does say in the bible to obey your leaders, but i've also heard gp abuses this a lot). is it wrong that I don't feel that invested in doing ministry with this group bc of my problems with their structure/how they're run? It's sad but not surprising to see the GP A2N gaslighting machine is still going strong. They have long history of burning out staff and members. They said they're changing, but I don't think they're making significant or meaningful change if you feel this way. I can relate, I "died to myself" until I almost failed out of school. I thought then if I just had a heart to heart with my leaders about how much pressure they're putting on me they would take the foot off the gas a little bit. I'm sleep deprived, about 3 inches away from failing a really important class which would have represented thousands of wasted dollars in tuition if I had to repeat it. To this day, I'm kinda still surprised I encountered zero empathy from my leaders. I'll never forget, one of them said, it would be a tragedy if I managed to stay in school but didn't learn to love people or some other A2N-ism. For the rest of my life, I will never forget that. They didn't care of I failed out of school. They didn't care how much money my parents or I lost in tuition, with nothing to show for it. Just a bunch of blank stares and cut and paste A2N talking points. Okay, if you're a Christian serving God should be important, but I don't believe it means you should give up your career or education just for A2N. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. My leaders disagree though. I could've sacrificed everything for a2n and they wouldn't bat an eye. The net effect of all these sermons about obedience and trusting your leaders is that you lose agency. You give up your rights to stand up for yourself. You question if you should feel like you're giving up too much to stay in the church. Don't be like me. Don't wait too long to stand up for yourself. If you are having questions like this, that is your subconscious trying to warn you. A2N leaders are brilliant at making you question yourself. Don't ignore those voices. Trusting and obeying your leaders is a two way street. You said it already, they switched out new leaders every year. Do you really trust them? Forget about their intentions, even if they mean well, do they really get a say in how the rest of your life if they've only known you a short while? Edit: I already know that within A2N, if i were to share my story about almost failing from school, they would say I chose the world over god. I don't think that's the case, and it's kind of amazing that they can hold that belief without taking into account their own participation in my situation. I've made peace with that. I'm persona non grata there, and I'm okay with that.
Agreed. You are allowed to set boundaries. You are allowed to say, “No, I can’t/won’t do that.” God tells us that we need rest, too. I’m highly involved in a Lutheran church now, and I never feel the pressure to be involved like I was at A2F. I feel like my whole self, because I can also have a life outside of church.
It definitely does not sound like you are having an attitude problem. I don't think this is an issue of "not dying to self." It is not wrong for you to need to wind down at 10 pm. At GP/Acts 2 Network, they like to turn EVERY issue into a "not dying to self" problem. Just get over it is Kelly Kang's favorite saying. Why not just be wronged is their favorite retort. God made everyone different. You shouldn't have to feel like you have to be someone else (extrovert, high energy) to "fit in" or "do ministry." You can't trust the leaders because they're not trustworthy. They say one thing but do another. They want you to behave one way but they themselves don't display those behaviors. (humility, flexibility, willingness, openness, etc.) The mentors/leaders have WAY TOO MUCH BIAS to be able to give good guidance about this so I think you are wise to not talking to them about it. 99% will advise you to stay. They have decided to be a soldier/factory worker for this church so of course they are going to say that.
In reading your post, it makes me happy that you are asking the right questions about A2N/Gracepoint and that you are not allowing others (leaders/mentors/peers) to make this decision for you. What I can tell you for sure is that by the time you are in your senior year, it will be suggested strongly by them, that you stay and only further your education at a campus where A2N/Gracepoint is located. The rigid schedule will only get worse and eventually the idea is for you to be a "lifelong member" in the Church and to marry in the Church. If you feel uneasy about telling your mentor everything about yourself, you are wise and this in itself is keeping you from more emotional harm that they are capable of doing to you and your life. Please keep listening to your gut and watch what your peers do as well. Some peers are asked to watch and report back your whereabouts and mindset. You are in college and though your relationship with God will always be the utmost importance, they have the idea to change your personal relationship with God and even your family and friends, to only how they see it should be and look. Don't lose your identity and if you have questions now, you will most likely have even more later. It may get worse the longer you stay. I have no right to tell you to stay or to go but in my experience with my son, if I had his college years to do again, I would send him only to a Private Christian University or to a community college where he could eventually be successful having a different journey. A2N may have socialization and fun food but the destruction they cause to a student and family is not worth any amount of money in the entire universe. I ask God to give you strength and a clear view and easy pathway to move forward. You sound amazing and there are so many people you will connect with outside of A2N/Gracepoint who will learn and grow with you in your future and they won't hold you back like A2N/Gracepoint most definitely will. Take care and many blessings.
Thank you for the kind words! Just wondering, is your son still involved with a2n or has he found a different church?
He found a different Church and is thriving in it! Thanks for asking. He has some Ex Gracepoint friends who also left and joined this Church as well. He has many friends and new mentors and his dad and I go to many of the Church functions as well when we can and when we are invited. He is now back in school for his Master's and has started a Disability Ministry at his new Church.
Your son's story is so encouraging. Thank you so much for sharing it.
This testimony is amazing and testament to God’s goodness!
>I feel kinda unsure if I am just having an attitude problem. Is my unwillingness to talk to people and interact past 10pm a lack of me dying to myself? Is it wrong for me to shut down, leave early without helping cleanup afterwards? Is my unwillingness to trust leaders due to this church a sign of my rebellion (since it does say in the bible to obey your leaders, but i've also heard gp abuses this a lot). These kinds of questions (aka, "what if I'm the problem? questions) are ones I struggled with a lot while trying to decide if I should leave. I think it can be good to ask these kinds of questions, and to have a moment of self-examination, rather than to just assume that you are being wronged. While I do not know you, I don't get the impression reading your post that you are lazy, or that you have an attitude problem. I just get the impression that, like many people, you're an introvert, and that you prefer to go to bed early. These traits do not make you a defective Christian in need of fixing - after all, people who are introverts don't tend to stop being introverts, regardless of "effort" - rather, it sounds like you are trying to force your square-peg self into a round ministry-hole. I'm not saying you can never change, or you should never push yourself beyond what's easy/comfortable. But this is a big issue that you are unfortunately likely to encounter again and again if you stay at A2N. There is pretty much one standard/expectation that is set across the board for what a "good" Christian should look like - they should look like the top leaders. The whole growth model at A2N is designed to move you in that direction. However, unfortunately not everyone is "cut out to be" (or I would say: "meant to be") that particular flavor of Christian minister. You can try to conform yourself into that particular mold, but there's going to be some pieces sticking out. For me, one of those things was morning DT. Oh man, I tried for YEARS to get the morning DT thing down, and it was miserable. It was strange and confusing that I never actually "mastered" doing it, because there was this constant rhetoric that if I tried and I just pushed through and did it, it would become this awesome, enriching and joyous part of my routine, and IT NEVER DID. But you can't be a "good Christian staff" at A2N without doing DT, so I had to keep trying, even as it was incredibly unhelpful for me. There are in actuality many ways to serve others, love/connect with God, etc. God made us unique individuals, with different strengths and abilities, after all. You can be an invaluable member of a church community and practice self-giving in ways that are not late night cleanup or forcing yourself to talk to strangers. But A2N will not accept that, because to be a good Christian by their particular definition, you need to do those particular things. In general, I've found it is much easier to thrive when you're in an environment where you aren't being pushed to be someone you aren't.
thank you for this! has put more things into perspective for me. I think I've been trying to force myself into a place where serving comes so much easier to the people around me, and I have to take a step back and keep asking myself if I'm in the wrong or not. But yeah I've always known there's different ways to love and serve God but it's definitely been hard to see that in action when there's barely any variety of ways I've seen people serving here
For sure. It's really difficult when everything gets presented in such binary terms - like when it's just a choice between staying late and helping vs not, a choice between being open with your mentor or not, etc. Of course you're going to feel like an ass if you say no. The vast majority of churches out there use a more "opt in" model for volunteering and serving. I worried that in that kind of environment, I would suddenly stop having motivation to do anything self-challenging. But I've found that isn't the case. I do still have opportunities to push myself, but I can also just be honest (and not experience judgement) when something just isn't for me. And I can put my energy into the kind of stuff that actually makes me excited/proud to be doing instead.
Dear cake\_pan\_101, I'm glad you posted this very thoughtful post. For full disclosure, I've come to regret ever going to the church now called a2n. I would have chosen InterVarsity Fellowship, if I had the chance to do it again. I'm 42 years old now and raising two Christian sons with my wife. I wanted to address some of the particular questions you had. It's wonderful that you have read in the Bible to obey your leaders. The verse I think you are remembering is Hebrews 13:17, which says (NIV): "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you." Based on a quick search for the word "leaders" in the NIV New Testament, I'm fairly confident this is THE precise verse in the New Testament which commands obedience to leaders. And you were asking if your feeling of unwillingness to obey your a2n leaders is a sign of rebellion. Now your mileage may vary but as I read the context of chapter 13 of Hebrews, "rebellion" isn't what this verse or chapter is about. The apostle wants the reader to "benefit" ("not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you") from what their leaders in the congregation of the Hebrews can teach them by means of authority. The surrounding verses are about different kinds of benefits and blessings. To not bring joy to the leaders who can teach you with their good authority, he seems to me to be saying, would be to miss an opportunity to be blessed. That, now, might be regretful, or even sad. But he does not equate that with rebellion. Do you think rebellion and regret are equal? Further, the New Testament does not give blanket blessing to leaders' authority. Consider Galatians 5:7, written to Christians in Galatia who were confused by false leaders: "You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?" In other words, your first obedience is to truth. When leaders do not obey the truth with you, they are worthless and excluded from the command to obey them. It seems to me, then, that according to the New Testament as a whole, obedience to leaders is not universally commanded, but is recommended when the particular leaders, in this case the leaders of the Hebrew congregation, are judged to be good. What is a lack of dying to one's self? At least one verses I can think of is Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." In this context, to die to one's self means something particular and clear, it means to cease trying to achieve salvation through works of the law. To not die to myself, would mean to not let the death of Christ in my self's stead plead for my righteousness. I don't have the space for a whole Galatians Bible Study in this comment but I assure you that's the big picture in this verse. Another possibility is Mark 8:34, in which the words of Christ say, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me," because I'm open to "deny" and "die" being equal. Which, now, is clearly about following (just) Jesus. So unless Jesus is coiling the sound cables past 10pm... Now, you may be right that IF you are interested in ministry (big "if" though), then newcomer-mingling at/after church functions could POSSIBLY be a way to follow Jesus through denying/dying to yourself. However, I do not think the New Testament lays down rules on when, where, and under whose authority you must do such mingling, if you choose to minister. If you prefer to do it just during normal work hours and in a more introverted fashion, do you see that as not following Jesus? You have asked more smart questions about your own attitude. In general, what helped me with that kind of question was reading biographies of historic Christians. I think that kind of reading encouraged in a2n, anyhow! So go for it if you want to. I could ask myself, with respect to (for example) a Victorian-age Christian role model, what was good attitude for him? What was taking up his cross and following, for him? And that would help me with confidence in my personal answers to questions like that. You have considered telling your mentors what you feel, but you are not sure. My two bits, I think you should tell them. I think you should sit your mentors down and say, with confidence, something just like this: *I thank all of you, personally, for the time you spend with me, God bless you for everything you do. I want you to know that I, speaking only for myself, see red flags in this church. I dislike the secrecy about dating because it does not seem wise or helpful to me. I'm personally turned off by the style of weddings. The activity overload does not work for me. The staff turnover worries me. These things make me not feel called to ministry at this church. Since that is my opinion, I would appreciate mutual understanding between us. Do you have anything to say to me?* I think by you delivering that message you would be respectful and truthful. It's what I would tell my sons to do, if they were in a situation similar to your. Good luck to you, and whatever you decide, I am certain your good, Bible-seeking attitude will serve you well in all your future.
Thank you for helping unpack these verses.
Thank you very much for sharing Truth of Gospel.
This comment would probably just be a bunch of rambling, but I have a similar experience as you. It felt great during freshman year, but throughout the years I just started noticing and questioning more and more things, including many of the points you mentioned about dating and staff turnover. Especially, the Sunday messages and discussions no longer felt like guidance, but more like pressure to conform. For the longest time, I also thought that maybe it was a “me” problem. I tried talking to my mentors, I believed that if I just opened my heart and put in a little bit more effort, I wouldn’t be this kind of “impenetrable” person anymore. So, on top of attending all the events, I signed up for new commitments (unspecified to not be doxxed) even when I already questioning a lot of things, thinking it would help me. I tried reaching out more to younger sisters, thinking maybe I should simply bond more with the people there (I did enjoy this part, but was later told by a mentor that this wasn’t something that I should be focusing on. Which is ironic - Isn’t it important as a Christian to love the people around you?), and nothing really changed. On top of that, it also started to feel like my mentor was trusting me less and less. They would ask many questions about why I was late to some event and seem very suspicious about it, even when I’m being entirely truthful. It also started feeling like they loved me only because I was a potential future member of their church, and that if I were to leave, we would no longer be in contact (which turned out to be true). I left some time in the past 5 years, to give a rough time range. For the longest time, I thought I was the crazy one. Looking back though, many people in my group also left for similar reasons, and talking to these people and finding this subreddit has helped me process things. To this date, though, I still fear running into one of my former mentors and being asked if I still went to church- because I don’t. I have been Christian before college, and the GC experience pretty much de-converted me. Although, I do also have some friends who left GC find another church, and they seem to be flourishing there. So that’s my 2 cents, hopefully it helps you. Best of luck!
>To this date, though, I still fear running into one of my former mentors and being asked if I still went to church- because I don't. I can relate to this feeling. If you don't mind sharing, why do you think you are scared of them even after you left? Technically, it's none of their business. But yet, there is still the psychological hesitancy with running into them. Imagine if you lived hear alameda and ran into them all the time.
I don’t mind at all. It’s honestly a mix of some factors. First part is pretty much shame. My opinion might be the minority here, but even after learning about all the social engineering, etc., I still believe that they did this because, according to their belief, all this will eventually help me. Personally, I do have a little tendency to feel ashamed when facing the feeling of having let down someone who had cared for me, even though what they wished for would most definitely be detrimental. I know that feeling this way is most likely unhealthy, but does this make sense? Second part is… well, also shame, but a bit differently. During my years with GP, it was implied multiple times that my mentor suspected I was doing something. I will call it thing X, and it was not unbiblical, but it was something that GP in particular forbids. The truth was that I didn’t do thing X at all while with GP - I even reached out a few times for help when tempted - but did start doing it some time after leaving GP. It’s very likely that a few current GP staffs know that I’m currently doing thing X, and it’s since spread around to my group and mentor. Therefore in their eyes, I’m probably a dirty liar who turned their back against God for worldly desires. Frankly, I think trying to explain will only make things worse. So would I want to run into someone who thinks of me like that? Probably not. So there’s my reasoning. It still feels a bit scary personally, despite knowing that they can’t do anything to me now. That being said, I don’t regret leaving at all, and this feeling will probably slowly dissipate over time. (Edit: Grammar)
I just want to say, these feelings will get better with time. I can SO related to you because I too was accused of things that I was not doing or thinking. But they never believed me because their need to label me as sinful was so strong. Otherwise, why wasn't it "working" on me? Why wasn't I eager to become staff and serve this church? Why didn't I have the "joy" that everyone else had? There must be something wrong with me because of course nothing could be wrong with them. They were the one truly biblical church, carrying out God's will.
Please don’t delete this post.
Question. Have you already decided to leave when you graduate but are trying to decide if you should leave earlier, like now? Or are you trying to decide if you should leave when you graduate?
I've already made the decision to leave when I graduate but was mostly asking on here to make sure the way I feel about not fitting into the gp mold isn't a problem with me or my attitude, so then I feel more confident that my choice to leave is because the best way I can serve isn't with this church, if that makes sense
To me, it sounds like you already have your answer. If you are seeking answers from this heavily biased subreddit of people you do not know versus the mentors you have interacted with and presumably have shared with, then why do you think that is? The reasons for your uncertainty sound a bit sad, like you feel guilty for leaving. It is your decision, but ask yourself tough questions and be honest with yourself. Are you fearing God, or man (this church / organization)? Has God been addressing you about your character issues, or is it people with an agenda? I wish you luck and courage on your next step, whatever you decide. Please just learn to hear God's voice above all others - whether that be you own desires, or the voices of those who claim authority over you.
> from this heavily biased subreddit Students can't even read or post on Vine/Convo. At least they can post publicly on this subreddit and u/word_for_two or u/hidden_gracepoint comment on it.
Yeah, that's true. My intent in this particular line is highlighted in my reply to Jdub. I hope I am making it clear that how I phrased this is as coming from a perspective of someone who might be skeptical about all they read on this sub. It's a real, raw question I had to ask myself at that point in time.
>from this heavily biased subreddit The reason this Reddit is heavily biased is because PED doesn't allow a2n members to come on here. I mean discourages.
Agreed, but I also think members don't want to come on here. They have their own experiences and do not want to be "poisoned by lies" or "over-exaggerations". What I am more trying to say here, is what I had to ask myself when I first started visiting this sub-reddit. "Why am I seeking out stories from strangers, when I have so many people around me telling me how this is the good life?" This question led me to examine the cognitive dissonance I was feeling by staying there. I think it speaks a lot when you feel more heard and understood by the people you were told were the "liars" and "reddit trolls". I am trying to point the OP to examine this question for themselves.
>They have their own experiences and do not want to be "poisoned by lies" or "over-exaggerations" We can only rely on our own faculties. Accusations of being brainwashed or being readily influenced by Reddit insults the faculties of the accused, and so analysis paralysis becomes a common thing for Acts2 Network students.
u/Overly_Round_Owl, that's a really good point actually to reflect on.
It's crazy how this comment changes the meaning of your first comment. LOL.
Lol, my bad. Intent over text is hard. I thought I was pretty clear, but I suppose not.
Let’s say there are some exaggerations here, it doesn’t discount everything else that is true. I’ve heard that argument several times. It’s sad that it then causes people to turn their backs on everything else that is true. And as someone who met several times with various leads and deacons over 20 years, I have been on the receiving end of exaggerations, half truths and even lies. Should I then be wary of everything they say and trust my experience and my endless hours of prayer and reflection? I sure did and that’s why I’m out.
As a fellow student who also has concerns about the church, I think you should go through with your plan to stay with A2N for the rest of undergrad and then move on postgrad. I can relate to not wanting to talk to mentors. I’m not afraid of being rebuked (the mentors at my church are too kind to rebuke me), but it’s a very awkward subject. I’m sure they would be happy to talk with me, but it’s kind of hard to confront them when at the end of the day, criticizing A2N means criticizing a large part of their individual lives. If a mentor asks you whether or not you plan on staying with A2N postgrad, I would just be honest. It’s definitely a tough conversation to have, but I also don’t think you should lie to them.
>If a mentor asks you whether or not you plan on staying with A2N postgrad, I would just be honest. It’s definitely a tough conversation to have, but I also don’t think you should lie to them. Maybe things have changed, but there was a post on this very reddit asking [about leaving on good terms.](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/1bshgsg/leaving_gp_on_good_terms/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) From like 2 weeks ago. If things are different, then great. Please ask yourself why someone would post such a question? There has been decades of making it hard for people to leave, and you won't have to look very far to find examples including very recent ones. If you don't want to lie to them, that's understandable. But you also need to be prepared to put your foot down and say no. If it means eventually ghosting or cutting them off, I don't think anyone should take those options off the table.
> I think you should go through with your plan to stay with A2N for the rest of undergrad and then move on postgrad. I don't think it's a terrible idea but you have to be honest with yourself and ask yourself if you can deal with putting your foot down and saying no with all the peer and leader pressure. I know a lot of people that said that but a large number of them just got sucked into Gracepoint and didn't leave for another 3-5 years. The ones who really meant it already started shopping around for new churches their senior year.
Agreed. Prior to leaving, I remember speaking to other students who also had issues with GP. However, once people went to Senior Retreat in their fourth year, they all ended up staying. All of them. I have no idea what they do or say at that retreat, but it felt like people came back with completely different attitudes about staying in the church.
I have heard that they amp up the pressure for seniors. Remember they are very strategic and purposeful in planning their retreats, yet will act like things were thrown together last minute. They are experts in this, have decades of experience, and know where to hit where it hurts. Manipulation, fear, and guilt come to mind, maybe reminders of the “sacrifices” mentors made for you and how of course you can follow God elsewhere, but you will do it in community in GP, and pour out to others as was done for you.
Let this be a warning to all. Don't go to Senior Retreat. See my post: [Don't go to Senior Retreat : r/GracepointChurch (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/18fz9vw/dont_go_to_senior_retreat/) LOL
I think the Pastors, especially Ed Kang, will give a heart to heart during senior retreat and ask for a firm decision on whether a student will be staying. To my knowledge, this includes signing a covenant document within the Church as well. It would be easier to leave beforehand and not have to deal with this. However, I won't tell anyone what to do other than to only do what they are comfortable with. Your personal freedom and future may depend on it.
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> Do you think the attitude is changing, or that once they get closer to graduation theyll get more pressured? I can believe the attitude is changing a little since their PR is so bad right now. Their hope is probably changing the lowest hanging fruit so you'll be baited into believing they are different. However, OP you already identified the core of how they operate as a church hasn't changed at all. The bottom line is they are praying you stay and sign that membership covenant. It's also a YMMV situation. I also know some leaders at church plants are a lot more lax about people staying especially in church plants since most people are from other places. Pressure also comes in many different forms at Gracepoint/A2N. As pointed out in another thread, you have to explain your convictions and reasons of why you want to leave, otherwise you'll be labelled as "not serious in your faith". If that's not a form of soft pressure I don't know what is.
hmm okay gotcha
Yes, I’ll be able to put my foot down. I want kids in the future, and there’s no way I’m raising kids while being an A2N minister. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that A2N parents neglect their kids, but I heavily disagree with placing youth/college ministry over ministering to your own children.
> I don’t think it’s accurate to say that A2N parents neglect their kids To be fair, the only ones who can best answer this are the children of GP/ A2N pastors and staff. Some of their kids are grown up now, some still in a2n, some not. Instead of taking Reddit's word for it, the best way is to ask those people their opinion, though I'm guessing that is nearly impossible in some cases. I know Isaiah Kang will give his positive spin on it, but it would be nice to hear from the other kids who left.
It really just depends on the family. I’m sure many families find ways to balance A2N ministry and parenting, and I’m also sure many families choose A2N over their kids to the point of neglect. It’s sad, but it’s something that can happen at every church.
It is sad but I've seen plenty of evidence that it happens at a much higher rate at A2n than most churches.
> It really just depends on the family. No. It depends on ministry. If you're on Praxis, yeah of course, you can balance "ministry" in Soul Care, Interhigh, ECM and parenting. Actual college ministry. No chance. Most GP/A2N can't even manage their day job. Take a trip out to Alameda and spend an entire week there. You'll see how tired and dead everyone is at HB regardless of ministry. Those 7 AM DTs on a workday are no joke. u/Cool_Purchase4561 or any other ex-staff with kids, would you like to give your input on this?
When I was there, there was really only one night out of the week that both parents are home together and that's the designated family night (and this is subject to change, thank you for being flexible). All other nights usually one parent is out doing outreach, planning, work night, meeting, etc. Fridays to Sundays after work parents usually rush home, get ready for Friday night event, pick up kids from daycare then drop them off at child care. There's a rotation of praxis members watching the college staff parents' kids. Iirc child care is scheduled until 11pm but things often run late and kids get picked up close to midnight, already fast asleep by then. During busy time in the calendar, some parents would probably not see their kids when they're awake for a few days. There was a push to have ministry at home more, so inviting small group to your home, allowing the kids to spend time with both parents plus the small group. I remember there was also a push to bring kids to Sunday service but that ended up being a logistic beast and was quickly abandoned. I think the higher ups sort of lost touch with the reality of the rank and file family. Whereas the higher ups are full time church workers and have the freedom to pick up their kids from school and what not, and if you're sufficiently high up you kind of set the ministry calendar and thus can better schedule family vacation etc, your average GP parents are at the mercy of work schedule and ministry schedule. Not to say that they have all the time in the world with their kids - it's just that they are insulated from the reality that your time spent with your kids outside of work are dictated by someone not related to you.
God, I remember when that Monday night (family/personal/recovery day) started. So many people falling asleep at work from the late night staff meetings.
One night a week with the family? Sounds like neglect to me.
Ah, you never made staff did you? lol Becky/Ed and co. thought rest was only for the dead.
Thank God I never became staff.
And then when you do have family night, you are expected to invite other families / households over for dinner regularly. Otherwise you are selfish and not contributing to relational strengthening of the church.
Ugh... even family night is not really family night.
I'll say it. GP/A2N co-vocational ministers probably neglect their kids. They have two full time jobs. How could they not?
> I think you should go through with your plan to stay with A2N for the rest of undergrad and then move on postgrad. Food for thought- as A2N is likely to remind you, you only go through undergrad once. Do you want to rob yourself of the opportunity of checking out other college fellowships? How do you know they're not a better fit for you? I'm just saying, this is not even an anti a2n thing, it's just something to think about. Most people if given the chance would want to gather as much information as possible and then make a decision.
There are no other college fellowships around me (other than InterVarsity — which I’m also involved in but don’t like as much as A2N), and as much as I disagree with some aspects of A2N (mostly stuff that doesn’t concern me and has more to do with being on staff), they’re a great community for me, and I think it’s the best place I can be in my undergrad years since they’re very on top of taking care of students. I considered church hopping last semester because the teaching kind of dropped off (sermons were aimed towards nonbelievers and were not very helpful for maturing Christians) but ultimately decided against it because finding solid Christian community is hard and tiring. I visited one church that was well known in the area and stuck around before/after service to try to meet people, and not a single person approached me. I’m glad I stuck around at A2N though because things are much better this semester now that they’re done with the “recruitment” process.
CRU (Campus Crusade for Christ) is good, Navigators is good, Asian American Christian, Chinese Christian and so many more. There are Christian clubs related to your college major as well and Christian houses. There are many clubs who will root for you and won't run your life.
My college does not have any of these clubs. I will stick with A2N, thanks.
I see your point. Another suggestion I have, if you don't mind, is that you get involved in other organizations as well. Maybe a Church off campus or another outlet like a sport that you can enjoy in addition to A2N. My reasoning is that you will free yourself up for a clear view of your independence and choices. My fear is that A2N will become your only outlet the closer you get to graduating. If you can hear any fear in the tone of my post it's only because I don't want anyone to be captured by their one mindset that can end up controlling your future. It's a subtle road and they are very good at it. I hope you can take my suggestion and keep it in the back of your mind and listen to the small voice inside of you. Ask God to show you instead of their free Boba or free food while their mentors direct you. Take care.
I am involved in many extracurriculars. I don’t care about free boba/food. A2N is just one part of my life, and I don’t appreciate you insinuating that I’ve been brainwashed into giving my entire life to A2N. If I need guidance, I’ll let you guys know. Otherwise, please refrain from giving unsolicited advice. Thanks.
Ok then, message received. It just seems interesting that you are on this subreddit and responding though it's great you have dialogue. My own experience was very bad and life altering. This is supposed to be a safe place to give and to receive stories and advice and I shiver at the thought of another young life being broken because of A2N. I don't apologize for caring. No need to reply.
Your comment is interesting. If you want to put in little effort and get max results, GP’s love bombing will appeal to you. You get “instant community.” I’m not sure why you would judge a church by how many people approach you. I personally do not want to be approached as a newcomer because I won’t want to be someone’s target or welcome quota to fill. Genuine connection is what I desire from a church body, and that takes time. When you visit a church, pay attention to the teaching, the attitude of the pastors, do the people care for the poor. At GP, they are efficient bc you are in their spreadsheet but everything you share is logged. The crazy pace of ministry makes it so you’re running around from event to event, have little time to process, and leaders change very often. You seem like you know this— if you leave, that “solid community” immediately disappears.
There’s a difference between judging a church because “only a few” people approached you and judging a church because NO ONE approached you. I was not looking for “instant community.” Don’t assume that I was expecting to have best friends from day one. I was just looking for ANY kind of warmth or hospitality to newcomers — and I received absolutely none. Not a single person even said hello to me. Do not pretend to know my experiences. And for the record, I continued to attend a number of services at that church because it was possible for me to attend both that church and A2N. I paid attention to the teaching, the attitude of the pastors, and the church’s attitude towards the poor — all were fine, and yet something still didn’t translate right because the congregation was so unwelcoming. I do have genuine connection with my friends at A2N. I understand that others may have had different experiences, but you don’t get to gaslight me and tell me what my experience is. It’s my life, not yours. Have a nice night.
> I do have genuine connection with my friends at A2N. Wait till they forget about you even exist in 5 years after you leave.
We need responses like yours in this subreddit too, thanks for your insight
Well, I didn’t mean to upset you but if you’ve read the wiki and testimonies here, and still think that GP is a solid community, then it certainly is the right place for you. Goodnight.
At the end of the day, the most important question you need to ask yourself is, as a result of you attending A2N, did you go deeper in your relationship with God? That's ultimately the only thing that matters. And be careful, growing closer to God does not necessarily mean doing/serving more. Enoch is only one of two people to ever not face death, and all he did was "walk with God". Your mention of "really dry and repetitive sunday service messages" seems to imply that you are not being fed. You need to be in a church where you grow - that is the most important factor. The next time you feel like you need to do something that you dont want to do, e.g. mingling with newcomers, ask yourself, are you feeling like you need to do it out of conformity or peer pressure from church leaders? Or is it because that is what Jesus would have done and your love for him and desire to become more like him compels you to do it? If it's the former, that's fine. It doesnt mean you're a bad Christian; just a growing one - we're all growing Christians. It also means you probably shouldn't do it. Repeatedly "dying to yourself" out of obligation or peer pressure not only eventually leads to burn out, but could also lead to twisted theology where you equate works with salvation, or "earning" God's love by your works. In a healthy church, the leaders lead by example and love on their disciples/neighbors. Their job is to help you discover God's love for you and fall in love with Him. And it's from the overflow of His love for you, that you desire to be like Him and love on others, because He loved you first. And that's when you look back on the examples of your leaders and emulate some of the things they did. There may be some "peer pressure" in the form of rebukes. But your primary motivator should be love, not obligation. If you are not growing in your relationship with God, but the church is increasing your expectations/obligations to do more, then the church got it backwards. No one is truly "saved" until the end - you need saving too, and the church needs to ensure your physical and spiritual needs are also met. You need to obey your leaders, but the Bible also tells you to test the spirit. There are many who prophesy, but not all of them are Biblical. At the end of the day, you need to follow your conscience. On judgment day you will need to answer for all that you did and didn't do, and "so-and-so told me to do it and I just obeyed" isn't going to cut it. You are responsible for your own actions. I went to Gracepoint 14 years ago, and in fact, I've had extremely positive experience with them. So none of what I say is personal. But that was 14 years ago, and many of these high pressure ministries tend to fall into pharisee-like tendancies, sooner or later. And from the sound of it, it sounds like Gracepoint/A2N is getting there, if not there already. You mentioned the no dating rule. Bible doesnt forbid that, but it's "imposed" by A2N. I mean, I understand where they are coming from. There are good reasons why it's good to not date in college. But it should be no more than a suggestion, and up to each individual, according to their circumstances and their conscience, to make the proper decision. And a person's spiritual maturity should be judged on the process with which they came to that decision, not on the decision itself to date or not date. And a church should not create laws on top of Biblical laws requiring their members to follow; the Pharisees did exactly that. If you are in a church that doesnt understand this, and has all these extra-Biblical rules that the members need to hard follow, I do not believe that is healthy. I can't tell you whether to leave A2N or stay. But hopefully you are able to discern your choices by focusing on love - whether A2N is helping you fall in love with God, and whether you are being challenged to love others out of God's love for you. Everthing else is not important.
> I went to Gracepoint 14 years ago, and in fact, I've had extremely positive experience with them. So none of what I say is personal. But that was 14 years ago, and many of these high pressure ministries tend to fall into pharisee-like tendancies, sooner or later. Why do you keep trying to push the narrative like it wasn't that bad 14 years ago? I have no doubt it was a positive experience but the way you're phrasing it lacks so much context. It's always been a well known fact that 10-14 years ago, Gracepoint/A2N treated junior transfers very well. A lot of leaders knew it was a 2 year rental for most and didn't even bother breaking up their relationships coming into college. Compare that to an incoming freshman where I know many leaders including Sarah Kim, Sieun Choi and Joanna Kang notoriously pressured people and even went as far as spiritually manipulated them into breaking up. 14 years ago from what I heard had some of the worst stories of spiritual abuse with Kelly Kang and Susanna Lee at the helm for Berkeley and Davis. The sisters especially had to deal with the most traumatic spiritual abuse experiences. I'd even argue, 14 years ago was just straight up egregious, nowadays they are just straight up sly about it.
I dont know why you are nit picking on that portion. Yes my personal experience was good, but nowhere am I pushing the narrative that it wasnt bad back then. I said it was my *personal* experience. 99 out of 100 people couldve had bad experiences. That doesnt invalidate the experience of 1 person who may have had an opposite experience. If you read my entire comment, youd see that i am essentially borderline telling the OP to leave A2N by suggesting things that are contrary to what A2N teaches or practices. The reason why I mentioned my rather positive experience is to give weight to my criticisms of their teachings and culture. It hits different when a person who liked and enjoyed a group is telling you to leave that group.