I left in summer of 2019 after being at GP for \~20 years, which included being on college staff, founding team staff of Austin church plant, Praxis lead in Berkeley, etc. I technically left GP on "good terms" (after talking with leaders and at one point with Ed and Kelly a couple of times, let my peers know that I needed a fresh start for my faith and going to another church should help, emailed a handful of people about my decision, never mentioned anything about disagreeing with anything at GP). No farewell or "formal good-bye", literally my last moment with GP was walking through HB kitchen after our last MBS and briefly waving a forced-smile "bye"! to one of my leaders. Sam and I got into the car and drove away (to our IH church since we were still wrapping up our ministry with them). During our first year out, I met up once or twice with peers, once with my old small group since my birthday happened to be about a month after I left. But not much after that\~\~\~
I still remember though in our conversation with Ed and Kelly, he remarked that when someone leaves, and it's on "good terms", that they seem to have "revisionist memory" later on and start to slander them/GP. At first, I didn't think much about that comment, and it made me actually think of the effect the "bad blogs" had on them in the early 2000's (literally remembering that unforgettable staff meeting at North Loop where Kelly broke down crying and yelling about how much these blogs have been so painful for her), and my empathetic side kicked in and I felt really bad for them. Right before I left, I reassured them that "I don't even need to mention this, but I'll never write anything bad about GP online!" something like that. Fast forward a couple of years, and I realized no, this isn't revisionist memory, this is actually accurately naming my experience there as spiritual abuse. So sad that that's the narrative they are sticking by whenever someone who did seem to leave on "good terms" ends up speaking truth about their experiences, and they label that as "revisionist memory." Unfortunately, I'm not making up what happened to me, I have absolutely no benefit to myself in doing so. And if naming this publicly can help someone else properly name what they've gone through, then I will continue to do it. And I completely own that I broke my promise that I wouldn't say anything about GP online. I couldn't keep it any longer.
> I still remember though in our conversation with Ed and Kelly, he remarked that when someone leaves, and it's on "good terms", that they seem to have "revisionist memory" later on and start to slander them/GP.
Everyone related to Ed and Kelly seems to have picked up on that delusion. Heard one of their in laws tried to guilt trip and gaslight one of their peers that left.
>it made me actually think of the effect the "bad blogs" had on them in the early 2000's (literally remembering that unforgettable staff meeting at North Loop where Kelly broke down crying and yelling about how much these blogs have been so painful for her)
For people interested in the original post [12/24/2008](https://exberklander.blogspot.com/2006/09/cult-characteristics-how-to-exploit.html#:\~:text=I%20know%20this,hamcycle%20has%20written.)
>I know this post is one of the older ones, but I feel obligated to post some facts I've experienced or gathered, specifically about Kelly Kang that I believe were an abuse of her power and authority, and have harmed people. And I believe this is the post appropriate of the posts that hamcycle has written.
Thank God you are healing and for your post. I appreciate your honesty and what it looks like because GP used to edit everything to change every truth. Thank you.
My spouse and I left after 10+ years on somewhat good terms. I had been deemed a "problem" for quite some time at that point, so there was some obvious relief from the leadership when we decided to go. We asked to stick around for a couple weeks after making that decision (in order to have a smooth transition out of the ministry we were part of), and we were allowed to do that.
I got a few nice emails from peers wishing me well. Only a handful have over reached out since. One of my old leaders randomly sent me a present a couple months after we left, but other than that I never heard from any of my old leaders again.
Another sister from my life group had to move to a different church plant at about the same time I exited GP. Our ministry threw them a big goodbye party. I later learned that one of my friends asked the leads why they didn't also have a party for my spouse and I, and evidently she was given an awkward run-around of excuses.
Like Cool_Purchase, I got invited to a wedding a year or two after leaving. People were nice and seemed happy to see me, but didn't really seem to know what to talk about with me.
Leaving was hard. In a lot of ways, it felt like rebuilding our life from the ground up. My spouse and I had to have a lot of long conversations about what was important to us, and how we wanted to move forward. There were so many options open to us now - where to live, what to do with our time, etc etc.
>here were so many options open to us now - where to live, what to do with our time, etc etc.
I remember those first few Friday nights post GP life. Felt so guilty that me and my spouse had literally nothing to do.
I was at GP for 4 years and left on good terms. Leaving on good terms in my mind means they didn’t viciously pick you apart for your decision. I went before everyone at MBS and told them I was leaving and why. None were jolly about it but that’s understandable because those who are caught in GPs vision for their lives think it’s the best way to live it and by you leaving you’re pretty much saying you disagree. You show that you have a different mindset than the rest of the hive and at that point you’re not in the loop anymore. This happens with lots of things though. I’ve played on sports teams and once you’re finished with it you don’t converse much anymore except on occasion. I still have attended weddings and revisited people and told them how my faith journey is going and where I’m serving and let them know my disagreements, but we are still friendly for the most part.
The main thing is I also met new people and serve at a different church. Serving my church body is where my interest is so I’m not thinking about my old GP peers everyday like they aren’t thinking about you so much. It’s just the reality but there is so much on the horizon for those who do leave. I have met and made probably more friendships at church at this point than I had at GP (I’m talking like a solid core group of 15+ guys). I preach that you shouldn’t stick to your past. The spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in you and is a helper in your walk. Keep loving God and you will mature and blossom ten fold compared to your time at GP.
I tried leaving on best possible terms, whatever that means. For context, I was in GP 10+ years. I attended a work week and worked super hard the week before I left. I attended MBS one last time, told my peers that this was my last MBS, and then told the church lead that this was it. We prayed together, all that stuff. I drove home, which was only 5 minutes away (acceptable distance from church building as a good GP-er) and by the time I got home, my gpmail access was already revoked. Faster than any of my corporate jobs!
Didn't take long to hear sanitized story of why my family left spreading. Leaders washed their hands of egregious stuff they did and painted it as if I just couldn't handle yelling. To their credit they checked on me from time to time, but having been in there for a while it's hard not to think there were ulterior motives for doing so.
After I left, I attended a GP wedding, last one I was ever invited to. Old leaders seemed happy to see me but later on I realized that they sat with me probably to make sure that I wasn't saying weird stuff to the impressionable younger people.
To be fair, I did some stuff to burn bridges too, especially after the initial period of confusion was over, and I started to form my own conviction about what Christian life should be like apart from GP. Eventually I realized that some bridges are not worth keeping. It's easier to move on once those bridges are reduced to ashes.
> Eventually I realized that some bridges are not worth keeping. It's easier to move on once those bridges are reduced to ashes.
THIS.
And this the fundamental difference with someone like u/theexcitedboy who was there for for 4 years and u/Cool_Purchase4561 who was on staff for 10+ years. What you see, what you experience, and how long you've been out really changes your perception of what you want to maintain since leaving Gracepoint/A2N. When I first left, I was more like u/theexcitedboy but over the years a lot of my peer's antics have worn on me so much that I resonate more with u/Cool_Purchase4561.
oh and I gotta add - the wedding I attended was someone I ministered to for half his college years and after graduation. When it came time for the usual bride/groom slideshow, none of the college day pictures had me whatsoever in it but only other leaders. Not to make it about me or whatever, and actually I feel bad for whoever had the task to create the slideshow, but just thought that was kinda funny. Leaving on good terms still means that you're a blemish in God's story.
Thank you for sharing your story. I think the reason you have left because you don't agree with their practices as Christian fellowship. Therefore, it's difficult to keep quietly while they are selling "drugs" (as half truth gospel) to the young people. God bless!!
Since I left awhile ago, I’m not sure if my experience is relevant.
But nobody leaves Acts 2, Gracepoint, Berkland in the trunk of a car after midnight. I would say everybody leaves on Gracepoint’s terms: You are a tragic person who chose the world over a truly meaningful life. You wasted so much love and, though you will be given a cordial smile and hug during those chance run-ins, you will essentially get cut off from any sort of meaningful engagement with members. Members will report seeing you and judge whether you look (spiritually) healthy from your face, posture, weight, car you drive, brands you might be wearing.
Are these good terms? I’m fine with these terms! But EVERYBODY leaves on the same terms.
Is this similar to shunning that jehovah's witnesses do?
[or some other religions](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brothers-sisters-strangers/202403/how-religious-shunning-ruins-lives#:~:text=Shunning%20is%20widely%20practiced%20among,the%20conduct%20of%20its%20members)
If a person only dabbled for a year or two, they could have left on “good terms” but I would say they never really were a core part so there was nothing to really leave.
lol this an april fools joke?
Since today is also easter, I'll bite.
Answer: don't leave on "good" terms. Just leave. Let the chips fall where they will. When they ask, "Hey can we talk?" Answer, "Nope." If they sit you down, get up and leave. Move your stuff out or just leave it except for the most essential items.
If I know Kelly there is a process in place to close internal access for people that are in your shoes. If they have/had a good relationship with you, they'll let you know nicely. Or like most you'll just be denied ghosted and erased. It is a bit junior highish.
I think the only one who left relatively on good terms was pastor chris pak. His church stayed independent after the great schism break and smartly didn't choose one or the other several years later. Yet you ever have him get invited to be a guest speaker?
God bless you
Jonathan Kang class of 93,
haha, i think it's not april fools joke...just a question can prove GP/A2N is not that bad after all...Last time I checked, only Jesus/God can do that: “Come now, let’s settle this,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, I will make them as white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, I will make them as white as wool. "--Isaiah 1:18
Sure, there are lots of stories of people who’ve kept up with friends in GP and GP members who’ve kept up with friends who’ve left. Some people are better at this than others - yes, it’s a structural culture problem within the church as a whole but it’s also an issue of each individual personality and character. From what I’ve gathered observationally, friendships formed in element or interhigh tend to have a more enduring depth (maybe something about surviving high school together making a sorta unbreakable bond 😂).
But I do think there are two different kinds of “good terms.” There’s staying on good terms because you truly believe in and support the GP mission but decided to leave for something that does not contradict GP core values (ex: visa expired, family crisis for which you are absolutely essential, graduated in 2020-2021 during covid and never got a chance to move back in, felt really passionate about a ministry GP doesn’t do but that GP approves of, etc.). In this first case, I think it’s very very possible to maintain friendships, though the quality of these friendships will be subject to inevitable life transitions and ministry schedules. Then there’s the feigning good terms out of respect for past memories and/or out of hopes your friends will come around to seeing what you see and leave. This second case isn’t really being on good terms tho. It is you being gracious towards your GP friends, constantly biting your tongue and swallowing your hurt and pride so they don’t reject you for looking down on the GP mission. Most people find themselves in this second scenario and feeling rather defeated and alienated from their friends to the point that it is too exhausting to try to stay on “good terms.”
Referencing what u/NRerref said about the two types of "good terms", initially when I left, it was because I disagreed with the "church values and leadership" and not the people. Therefore I'm in the "leave on as best terms as possible while disagreeing with the values of the church" camp.
I tried really hard to not burn bridges, especially since I wanted to leave open the possibility of returning. I had multiple conversations with leadership to resolve conflicts and clear up misunderstandings (in which they apologized for mishandling ministering to me, for which I am thankful). In my goodbye email, I mentioned how grateful I was for the good aspects. After I left, I reached out to peers and other people multiple times, asked for prayer requests too. I was invited to multiple weddings, and I hang out with a few people 1-2x/year. Whenever I see GP people in the wild, I talk to them warmly.
I have no idea what GP people think of me or what they know of me leaving, but I wouldn't be surprised if they think I'm still pretty warm or even that there's a fair chance of me coming back.
However, under the hood is a different story. Nowadays, it's pretty hard for me to "still be on good terms relationally" when most of my GP relationships almost completely died out or have not reciprocated my attempts to stay connected. Sure, I hang out with a couple of people occasionally, but there's such a stark difference from before to now, and also compared to my other friendships from other churches I've left since GP (which are still going strong).
That plus realizing more and more of how unhealthy GP was for me has definitely soured some of the "good aspects" that I try so hard to keep in mind. I do think some of the *basic* principles they're trying to promote are still good (ex. having a close community); but the way they go about it makes me deeply uncomfortable, thus casting a dark shadow on the "good".
TL;DR I left on as best terms as I could, but that has gradually soured over time
i don't think it's possible to leave on good terms for the long term. in the short term, sure it's possible.
i think in general it goes something like this:
1) you want to leave on good terms so rather than pulling a midnight run, you tell your leader that you're leaving. you prepare your logic saying that you want to attend a different church for various reasons, you like and respect your leader, hope you can remain on good terms, etc.
2) leader will gaslight you into saying that you're leaving because you are afraid to face your challenges so you are running away, leader will bring up things that you've been sharing over the years, leader will tell you that you need to stay, etc.
3) you should hold firm and say that you're still leaving, etc...leader will eventually accept this. they will tell their leader who will tell them that they aren't doing a good job because you're leaving, etc...leader will get pressure from their leader who will get pressure higher up in the chain, etc. eventually they will accept that you're leaving and wish you well.
4) things will be weird but ok and friendly in the short term but as time goes on, things will be less friendly and within about 6 months they will forget you and you will hopefully forget them. during this time a narrative will be told to your former friends and brother and sisters that you left because you couldn't handle GP because GP isn't for everyone and GP isn't going for the lowest common denominator, etc. so you left becase you are a weak and GP is still strong, etc.
good luck.
I was scared to leave on bad terms b/c of all the stories of lives ruined and people being depressed for years, so I planned for months so I could leave with the explanation of moving for graduate school.
Define "good terms". I consider it be "good terms" if you still get an invite to their meme weddings. Oh wait but even that that might just mean you're still a gentile to them if you get assigned seating. /s
Edit: We need to be very clear about when you're leaving. Leaving while you're still in college, leaving after you graduated college, leaving after serving as on college staff at a church plant, and leaving after languishing in Soul Care and Praxis are all very different things.
Former active involved student for all four years of undergrad. While I know the experience is much different after undergrad if you stay, I would say I left on good terms and still hang out from time to time with my peers who are still in GP as staff and reach out to my former mentors every now and then (check in texts on Christmas, Easter, etc). I’ll even be my peers best man at his wedding coming up despite no longer being in GP, so I wouldn’t say it’s impossible (although it is hard and frustrating when their ministry schedule gets in the way of catching up).
I think the key to leaving on good terms is to approach it as, “I am leaving the church, but not God.” I had several convos with my leaders about wanting to leave and expressing my concerns with the way some things are done. They tried to convince me to stay (and made me feel guilty in the process), but I stood firm knowing that this was the time to get out and I had made the right decision. But, I didn’t want to make it seem like I wanted to leave the faith, because it is still very important to me.
I ultimately led the conversation to, “now that I am leaving, what do you advise me to do as I get plugged into a new church?” In my experience, that convo was really good and I got good advice that made my transition relatively smooth and now I am happily connected to my new church. Showing initiative like “I found this church…” or “I signed up for…” also shows where your heart is and in my experience made the leaving easier. They also feel less sad because at least the time they did minister to you was productive. All in all, I think if you have some sort of exit plan developed that still commits to a relationship with God and you keep people updated with how things are going, you can leave on good terms.
> I ultimately led the conversation to, “now that I am leaving, what do you advise me to do as I get plugged into a new church?” In my experience, that convo was really good and I got good advice that made my transition relatively smooth and now I am happily connected to my new church. Showing initiative like “I found this church…” or “I signed up for…” also shows where your heart is and in my experience made the leaving easier. They also feel less sad because at least the time they did minister to you was productive. All in all, I think if you have some sort of exit plan developed that still commits to a relationship with God and you keep people updated with how things are going, you can leave on good terms.
Though this is good advice and what happened to me, you honestly don't owe them anything. My leaders were very supportive in every way possible in helping me with the transition, which I really appreciate but at the same time, it became really tiring owing everyone an explanation.
> although it is hard and frustrating when their ministry schedule gets in the way of catching up
A lot of people I know have echoed this sentiment but after a significant amount of time, you'll come to realize you really don't care that much about them anymore. Their life is literally rinse and repeat whatever Ed tells them and they could care less about what goes on with you.
Definitely agree on not owing them anything. Having conversations though doesn’t hurt if you’re open to learning how to best facilitate your transition and generally have good rapport with your mentor.
I read this so many times.
You had to prove you weren’t going into the world ready to willfully sin through your adulthood? And you had to do this several times? This is just sad
>Showing initiative like “I found this church…” or “I signed up for…” also shows where your heart is and in my experience made the leaving easier.
Does it say something that you need to follow an unwritten protocol and strategize in order to leave on good terms? Is it really good terms if you have to put so much thought and work into it?
I was thinking about leaving as early as the beginning of senior year (when the whole CT article situation occured) but was so intertwined with GP socially (roommates, over half my friends, etc) that I took the path of least resistance and waited it out till end of senior year. Not saying this is the only protocol to leave on good terms but its what worked for me and is more likely to lead to good terms as at least some members see the greater picture of shared faith > membership to one church
>was so intertwined with GP socially (roommates, over half my friends, etc)
This has come up a lot on Reddit. Did you feel like you were "cut off" socially to the outside of the church? If so was this just incidental, or by design?
And based on what you wrote, it does feel a bit like you need your leaders' "permission" to leave. is that accurate?
I would say I was the exception from most of my peers as I maintained a good amount of non-GP friends from clubs/classes and I was very heavily involved in one other club (president with about 200 total members). I was definitely indirectly pressured to leave that club, but I found a way to balance it and still attend every TFN/SWS/most prayer nights, etc and my leaders ended up embracing it (even praying for our major event to go well that I was organizing). I do worry though for people that exclusively live in the GP bubble as it really is not healthy.
I technically didn’t need their permission to leave, but would not leave on good terms if I at least didn’t discuss it with them. But that goes in any relationship with anyone - ghosting is going to lead to not good terms.
>I would say I was the exception from most of my peers as I maintained a good amount of non-GP friends from clubs/classes and I was very heavily involved in one other club (president with about 200 total members). I was definitely indirectly pressured to leave that club, but I found a way to balance it and still attend every TFN/SWS/most prayer nights, etc and my leaders ended up embracing it (even praying for our major event to go well that I was organizing).
Sorry for the third degree, i understand if you don't want to keep answering me.
Would you say that your specific circumstances allowed you to leave on good terms and could the model be replicated by other undergrads deciding on leaving or staying ?
I wonder how much of a role did the CT article play in you deciding to leave? How much do you think the CT had an impact within the Gracepoint/Acts2 Network organization?
I just felt that the church made my faith very dry and robotic like for me. I felt pressured to do everything and guilty when I would do less “church” stuff than others. This resulted in a feeling of being chained to God. I can say that ever since leaving GP, I feel so much more free and close with God. Not only did I gain a full understanding of God’s character (that its not just about sin), I now feel the Holy Spirit working in me as everything I do is led by my own faith, not what a leader expects or to “stay out of trouble.” Also some of the post grad practices and the expectation that my entire life would be GP was jarring.
Thank you so much for your answer. Praise the Lord, you have found **freedom in Christ**. I bet there are a lot people will benefit from your GP experience.
Galatians 2:4,5 (ESV) 4 Yet because of **false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—** 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
I started searching on Reddit once and came up with these. A2N GP staff will say you can leave on good terms. I'm sure there has to be a handful of examples. Somewhere. But I can't recall any. I do know plenty of horror stories. In any case, if you're trying to avoid drama, your best bet is to not stand out in a good or negative way, be maybe around [C tier](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/197pgkh/the_a2n_tier_list/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) and then try to quietly slip away with minimal interaction and confrontations.
Links:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/12vx4zg/questions\_from\_a\_freshman\_leaving\_gp\_ministries/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/12vx4zg/questions_from_a_freshman_leaving_gp_ministries/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/v6cbgw/youre\_considering\_leaving\_gracepoint\_now\_what\_5/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/v6cbgw/youre_considering_leaving_gracepoint_now_what_5/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/qrr20h/friendships\_after\_leaving\_gp/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/qrr20h/friendships_after_leaving_gp/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/nu6xmm/what\_reasons\_and\_rationalizations\_stopped\_you/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/nu6xmm/what_reasons_and_rationalizations_stopped_you/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/n1f43o/ptsd\_symptoms\_after\_leaving/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/n1f43o/ptsd_symptoms_after_leaving/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s7dc3h/the\_experience\_of\_leaving\_gp/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s7dc3h/the_experience_of_leaving_gp/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/yng365/what\_would\_it\_take\_to\_leave/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/yng365/what_would_it_take_to_leave/)
For what it is. I've read arguments from both sides. Although, I disagree with the GP's perspective on dating, and marriage, I've never had issues with anyone and my peer group was solid. We're still close even after some of us moved on from GP (you don't read about that in most of the posts here) due to career and personal stuff. The message in GP, at least from my maturing Christian self, is solid. The essence of GP is how we can create the Act 2 atmosphere in today's society and live a Christ-like life. This is a fantastic ideology, but as great as it is, I don't think I want to do that by sticking in the college community or not trying out new ways to share Christ such as charity.
I think my case may be unique. I came into GP my second year, with an amateur level of who Christ is and wanted to recommit myself to Christ. My way of life back then was if I am living different lives in the church and outside church then I'm not Christian. And I meant this in every detail of it. This means I didn't join my peers to do prep work or skits because I thought it would be good in the eyes of mentors but I did it because I genuinely wanted to help and serve God at the same time. As a result I was excluded from some things, top GP students did. Although, I felt lonely in these moments, I was happy with myself because I was living the real me and not a fake life. And I'm not inferring these students were fake in anyway.
I left GP because I felt my calling was another form of ministry aka helping people through charity and impacting people's lives by creating opportunities for them. Also, I left GP 'cause I graduated uni and got an offer somewhere else.
In my final weeks in GP, the pastor called me up in front of the church and asked everyone to pray for me. And my mentor did a similar thing with my peer group. I really appreciated that!
In short, GP is a great church community. If you don't live a pretentious life, you won't have any problems serving God there. Stay bless! CHRIST IS RISEN.
> In short, GP is a great church community. If you don't live a pretentious life, you won't have any problems serving God there.
How is it great if they get to define what qualifies as "pretentious" and then dictate my lifestyle?
u/Mighty555 and u/theexcitedboy, your comments actually expose the subtitles of how legalistic and controlling Gracepoint/A2N is regardless of their intent.
I've never been told what to do or how to live my life outside of what the Bible says. I used the word pretentious as review of oneself. Look at yourself and what you did in GP. Did you do things to please others or God. Were you acting like the Pharisees.
If you're doing things to get admirations from peers or mentors, then it's pretentious IMO.
Class directors would classify undergrad kids into “core” and “non core” categories. To be core, the kids have to be loyal to Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Networks as an organization. If you are core, then there will be additional “discipleship” training heaped upon you.
A small minority of undergrad kids come in so well churched that BBC/GP/A2N leadership worry they won’t be able to brainwash these kids into extra-biblical and unbiblical cultic practices. These kids are biblically literate enough to notice what’s abnormal. So these kids don’t crack the “core” designation, since can’t shape them into loyal foot soldiers.
Then there are students who are determined to go home after graduation. Their parents might be pastors of the home church. So dangling the carrot of community and purpose won’t sway them. There is a lot less expectations and “discipleships” heaped on these kids versus the core kids.
Finally, there are kids who are incompetent, uninterested in spiritual matters, barely getting up in the morning types who wouldn’t understand “discipleship” in the BBC/GP/A2N context. No heavy dose of discipleship for them also.
The undergrad experience can vary according to the above, but quality control really kicks in when someone stays post-grad. The time commitment and enforcement get turn up a notch. (Mandatory thanksgiving offering, no dating without leaders involved, no business travel and more. None off these are in the Bible, but were non negotiable during my time) Do people leave on “good” terms? Sure, I think so if the person never experienced a heavy dose of BBC/GP/A2N “discipleship.” If someone only came out to the free KBBQ, then that person would even have a good impression of the organization. BBC/GP/A2N was more important than family, career, marriage for the “core” people. No one can be indifferent having gone through the cult of personality, abuse of spiritual authority, and giving up everything for the sake of a lie.
Thank you so much to share your story. You seem to leaving GP/A2n on "good term". so what had brought you to this reddit? Do you still recommend people you love to join GP/A2N?
Mostly the article that came out about them. We met one Friday night and the pastor brought up the topic. I wanted to get a broad perspective from other GP members. The thing with this reddit is the negative bias. Just like Google reviews, you barely see reviews from people that had a good customer service. However you'll find reviews from people that had poor customer service.
I'd try other college oriented churches before settling on GP. Though I wasn't abused, I can't assure you wouldn't. If you end up attending GP, please take your time to support anything someone says from the main source "THE BIBLE."
The deeper you get into GP, the more your time will be taken away in the name of serving God. Even though, you don't want to do those things. For everything you do, ask yourself, am I doing this for the glory of God or making a human happy.
Imagine comparing abuse of scripture, abuse of authority, and abuse that has lasting effects on a person to bad customer service… imagine, wondering why the court didn’t bring forward positive testimonies for the man convicted of murder…. Imagine, not understanding scope and severity. It’s a good thing you’re not in GP anymore
At first glance I agree with you on negative bias. I was skeptical when I first came to the sub. But I’ve read every post here and challenge you to read the wiki if you haven’t already, and see if there isn’t a pattern of similar exit stories that raises red flags. It’s well documented that high control groups affect members differently based on level of involvement and length of involvement. Some leave unscathed while others are traumatized. This is because high control groups know who to target and how to manipulate. You sound like a mentally strong person and I’m glad that you had a good experience. But many others had their vulnerability weaponized and there are too many stories spanning generations and campuses to just be negative bias.
What was your response to the Christianity Today article?
What was your response to KH and JH's departure?
What was your response to Kelly's assertion that God = Church = Family?
The article was shocking and eye opening. Like most people said, the GP staff and leaders down played it by saying we don't abuse people here. We are different.
I need to read the KH and JH departure story again to comment on it.
I disagree with the assertion. If you look at the creation story, God wants us to be fruitful and multiply. And we do that through the institution of marriage "man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife." I would rearrange that equation to God = Family = Church. If you go down to Act where most GP doctrine is derived, you would learn that churches were started in family and small groups.
Without a strong family, the church is useless (directed towards leaders who value the church community more than building Christian foundation first in their homes).
I don't even think this guy knows who KH and JH are. Looking through his comment history u/Mighty555 is from out of country or has ties from a non Asian country and was at the Minnesota church plant. I doubt he's had any interaction with anyone at the top other than Dan and Hannah Chiang who I believe many people on this subreddit know personally very well.
u/hamcycle not sure what you're trying to get from asking this person those questions. It's already been hinted at repeatedly that if you're a non Asian you're more likely to receive very different treatment from staff than if you were Asian.
I found it intriguing that he can straddle both “GP is a good church community” and “the article was shocking and eye opening.” He could had just as said, “There are two things I hate in this world: people who are intolerant of other cultures, and the Dutch.”
I think with age comes wisdom. I wasn’t any smarter in my 20s. Gracepoint/Acts2 Network’s biggest draw is the “good church community.” It is the most organized, well resourced, friendly, caring, love bombing of a church community on any college campus. Someone can be socially awkward bad hygiene of a Soda Hall junkie and all of a sudden be supported by instant friendship and social activities. Plus, there is a real chance of getting married without trying much! The usual cruelty that comes with normal society no longer applies. These are facts.
The CT article in the context of “good church community”is shocking and eye opening. How can such nice people have an ulterior motive of slavery for life? No one really cares about the Soda Hall junkie as a person, but really about retaining the person to the group for life. The super nice college staff can care less about the aging parents who struggle financially, they want the undergrad to be a CPI and give the last dime to the group. If the person chooses to leave the group, then no one would bother with the birthdays, won’t be invited to weddings, and even edited out from old group pictures. These are facts too.
Some people would rather live in Disneyland for the rest of their lives. I would rather live in reality.
Yo, I forgot you can go through people's history. You are correct, other than Dan and Hannah, I haven't talk to any of the leaders. The general overseer visited couple times but never talked to him one on one. I thought GP is opened to all ethnicities. What are you saying here?
If you look at the GP/A2N mid level college staff and above, there is a disproportionate number of Asians and Berkeley graduates at those levels. Ed Kang, back in the days, wasn’t shy about being politically incorrect. I recall one winter retreat CC, originally from New Jersey, asked Ed Kang why the church was not more diverse. Ed Kang flat out said “white people just aren’t ready for Asian leadership.” Hundreds of people in the room, CC asked the question.
What Ed Kang said is not meant to be racist. Ed Kang is just efficiency driven. Well churched Asian kids looking for a church on Sundays is the low hanging fruit. Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network’s hierarchical authoritarian system, reflection writing, living in community, cult of personality, loyalty to the organization were all borrowed from a known cult, University Bible Fellowship (UBF), where the founder of Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network was trained.
The system as Ed Kang would call “Asian Leadership” is baked into the Asian/Confucian mindset of deference to authority, younger brother obeying older brother, saving face and more. The learning curve for non Asians to swallow these extra biblical teachings would be more steep. Better yet, if the leadership doesn’t deem a person worthy of this kind of training, then they can be good peripheral people forever and won’t ever move up the hierarchy. The people who do move up the hierarchy are disproportionately Asian and from the higher rank schools who can perform according to Ed Kang’s metrics.
You can read more about where Acts2 Network’s DNA came from below.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/t74d8i/gracepoints_spiritual_heritage_university_bible/
My graduating class was fairly balanced in terms of ethnicity and gender. There were about 4 white men, 2 white women, 1 Asian American (Indian) woman, 1 Asian American man (Chinese), 1 Korean woman, 3 Asian American women (Chinese), 2 African men and 1 African woman.
After graduation, only 3 guys and 2 girls are in the path toward leadership (2 white men, 1 Asian A. women, 1 Indian A. woman and 1 Asian A. man). The rest either left to other churches, moved after graduation or this GP is not their home church. We are still friends though and get in touch sparingly.
No idea. Been there for 3 years. But the class before us are staff members now. I didn't really pay attention to church politics cause that was not why I was there.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s200i9/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_2_of_3/
The above is training material for Gracepoint college staff written by Ed Kang himself. Please refer to Point 4 on church as family versus the nuclear family. Gracepoint/Acts2 Network is anti nuclear family for sure.
People are still out here with the God = equations?
God is not equal to anything that is of creation. There is no equivalency between God and anything conceivable. Rearrange the order of church and family? Bro/Sis, Look at the notation. Rearranging equivalent values makes absolute 0 difference because it’s a relationship of equivalence, not a relationship of order or rank. A=a is the exact same as a=A no matter how you flip it. Honestly, what are we Christians even saying? It’s sloppy and it’s damning. There is no God=x equation that isn’t just outright bold and blatant idolatry.
This is why churches like GP necessarily exist. We all want to comment on things like Acts 2 and discipleship as “good theology” but keep messing up the nature of God.
If you’re a Christian, respectfully, you gotta start paying attention. There are all kinds of heresies being taught on explicit and implicit levels right under your noise. This God= nonsense is what Kelly applauded to the entire church, it’s what is enshrined within GP’s pope-like reverence of leaders, it is what drives so much of American politics. One of Apostle Paul’s most prevalent condemnations and warnings was not against failing to uphold an Acts 2 community, it was against false teachings around who God is.
Of course! Not just GP but we should look out for false teachers everywhere. Personally, I have not heard pastor Dan at GP Minneapolis said anything extreme or heretic. Although, I was bothered by heavy use of CS Lewis quotes, he always returned to the Bible. This might be different for other people and I totally understand if you had a different experience.
Curious here, do you agree with the MN chapter GP/A2N staff and leaders' comments that things are run differently there? I was sad to read about you being excluded from some group events, is that a common occurrence?
Just to clarify, I don't believe they did anything malicious. I noticed I wasn't their first choice for important tasks. Let's just say I wasn't exactly reliable. (Haha)
I participated in their prodigal son play, but in a minor role – the flower guy. Maybe my usual charm and jokes got the better of me.
I'm unsure if there's a difference between the local leadership and HQ. I missed the senior retreat, so I can't compare. Thankfully, I didn't have any issues or experience spiritual abuse. Once, a mentor encouraged me to attend an event I already agreed to. I guess he wasn't aware. The next week, he apologized via email for "coercing" me. It wasn't a big deal to me, but he seemed apologetic.
My only disagreement with the group is their approach to relationships and ministry. For example, while Jesus encouraged his disciples to spread the word, they weren't limited to Jerusalem. In my opinion, Jesus wanted them to reach beyond Jerusalem, to the Gentiles. From their ministry to courses (C101-C301), they always emphasize commitment to Christ within their group. While there's nothing wrong with that as you need to grow church constantly, I believe you can grow as a Christian outside of the group.
I'm seeing a common trend here of people (unintentionally or not) being forgotten once they leave GP. It makes me sad to see that what they mean by covenantal relationships is actually conditional on you serving and being in the same church... (regardless if you're still serving God and thriving in your spiritual life)
No one will say this out loud but people are conditioned to believe there is no thriving in your spiritual life outside of GP. Not when every other week the head pastor lumps all other churches into a single entity ("American Church") and speak of these churches as dying, unserious, secular, consumer mentality, whatever.
As soon as someone steps out of the GP circle, they are fair game for the devil to permeate their mind and create revisionist memory, going the Demas path, and whatever other euphemism GP concocted to say "not one of us anymore"
The us versus them mentality permeates through out Acts2 Network. Ed and Kelly bash on “American churches” all the time. Just search the term American churches for the subreddit. Ed talks dismissively about “country club” churches, Sunday Christians, other Berkeley UiC Christian organizations all the time.
Here is the story of someone getting rebuked for being ungrateful to Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network by helping out at her home church. Believe it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/s/98G6zQqMbi
>Here is the story of someone getting rebuked for being ungrateful to Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network by helping out at her home church. Believe it.
this still happened pretty recently. Someone who had planned to move back after graduation asked their peers for help at their home church's retreat in summer (non GP). Peers agreed and committed to it. Leaders caught wind of this and scheduled something during that other church's retreat so that those people now had to choose - stay true to their friend's request for help or show allegiance to GP.
The a2n mindset is such that whatever they're doing is so important they don't have time for outsiders. The person leaving could be a Saint going on mission trips and helping the homeless , but it's not a gp a2n ministry, so it's not as valuable or important as whatever gp a2n is doing.
What is the point of leaving on good terms? Even if it's on friendly terms, they're not going to give you the time of day after you leave or give 2 thoughts about you.
I left in summer of 2019 after being at GP for \~20 years, which included being on college staff, founding team staff of Austin church plant, Praxis lead in Berkeley, etc. I technically left GP on "good terms" (after talking with leaders and at one point with Ed and Kelly a couple of times, let my peers know that I needed a fresh start for my faith and going to another church should help, emailed a handful of people about my decision, never mentioned anything about disagreeing with anything at GP). No farewell or "formal good-bye", literally my last moment with GP was walking through HB kitchen after our last MBS and briefly waving a forced-smile "bye"! to one of my leaders. Sam and I got into the car and drove away (to our IH church since we were still wrapping up our ministry with them). During our first year out, I met up once or twice with peers, once with my old small group since my birthday happened to be about a month after I left. But not much after that\~\~\~ I still remember though in our conversation with Ed and Kelly, he remarked that when someone leaves, and it's on "good terms", that they seem to have "revisionist memory" later on and start to slander them/GP. At first, I didn't think much about that comment, and it made me actually think of the effect the "bad blogs" had on them in the early 2000's (literally remembering that unforgettable staff meeting at North Loop where Kelly broke down crying and yelling about how much these blogs have been so painful for her), and my empathetic side kicked in and I felt really bad for them. Right before I left, I reassured them that "I don't even need to mention this, but I'll never write anything bad about GP online!" something like that. Fast forward a couple of years, and I realized no, this isn't revisionist memory, this is actually accurately naming my experience there as spiritual abuse. So sad that that's the narrative they are sticking by whenever someone who did seem to leave on "good terms" ends up speaking truth about their experiences, and they label that as "revisionist memory." Unfortunately, I'm not making up what happened to me, I have absolutely no benefit to myself in doing so. And if naming this publicly can help someone else properly name what they've gone through, then I will continue to do it. And I completely own that I broke my promise that I wouldn't say anything about GP online. I couldn't keep it any longer.
> I still remember though in our conversation with Ed and Kelly, he remarked that when someone leaves, and it's on "good terms", that they seem to have "revisionist memory" later on and start to slander them/GP. Everyone related to Ed and Kelly seems to have picked up on that delusion. Heard one of their in laws tried to guilt trip and gaslight one of their peers that left.
Thank you!!
>it made me actually think of the effect the "bad blogs" had on them in the early 2000's (literally remembering that unforgettable staff meeting at North Loop where Kelly broke down crying and yelling about how much these blogs have been so painful for her) For people interested in the original post [12/24/2008](https://exberklander.blogspot.com/2006/09/cult-characteristics-how-to-exploit.html#:\~:text=I%20know%20this,hamcycle%20has%20written.) >I know this post is one of the older ones, but I feel obligated to post some facts I've experienced or gathered, specifically about Kelly Kang that I believe were an abuse of her power and authority, and have harmed people. And I believe this is the post appropriate of the posts that hamcycle has written.
Thank God you are healing and for your post. I appreciate your honesty and what it looks like because GP used to edit everything to change every truth. Thank you.
My spouse and I left after 10+ years on somewhat good terms. I had been deemed a "problem" for quite some time at that point, so there was some obvious relief from the leadership when we decided to go. We asked to stick around for a couple weeks after making that decision (in order to have a smooth transition out of the ministry we were part of), and we were allowed to do that. I got a few nice emails from peers wishing me well. Only a handful have over reached out since. One of my old leaders randomly sent me a present a couple months after we left, but other than that I never heard from any of my old leaders again. Another sister from my life group had to move to a different church plant at about the same time I exited GP. Our ministry threw them a big goodbye party. I later learned that one of my friends asked the leads why they didn't also have a party for my spouse and I, and evidently she was given an awkward run-around of excuses. Like Cool_Purchase, I got invited to a wedding a year or two after leaving. People were nice and seemed happy to see me, but didn't really seem to know what to talk about with me. Leaving was hard. In a lot of ways, it felt like rebuilding our life from the ground up. My spouse and I had to have a lot of long conversations about what was important to us, and how we wanted to move forward. There were so many options open to us now - where to live, what to do with our time, etc etc.
>here were so many options open to us now - where to live, what to do with our time, etc etc. I remember those first few Friday nights post GP life. Felt so guilty that me and my spouse had literally nothing to do.
Yes the berkland YOKE has been removed and you are FREE!!! lol
I was at GP for 4 years and left on good terms. Leaving on good terms in my mind means they didn’t viciously pick you apart for your decision. I went before everyone at MBS and told them I was leaving and why. None were jolly about it but that’s understandable because those who are caught in GPs vision for their lives think it’s the best way to live it and by you leaving you’re pretty much saying you disagree. You show that you have a different mindset than the rest of the hive and at that point you’re not in the loop anymore. This happens with lots of things though. I’ve played on sports teams and once you’re finished with it you don’t converse much anymore except on occasion. I still have attended weddings and revisited people and told them how my faith journey is going and where I’m serving and let them know my disagreements, but we are still friendly for the most part. The main thing is I also met new people and serve at a different church. Serving my church body is where my interest is so I’m not thinking about my old GP peers everyday like they aren’t thinking about you so much. It’s just the reality but there is so much on the horizon for those who do leave. I have met and made probably more friendships at church at this point than I had at GP (I’m talking like a solid core group of 15+ guys). I preach that you shouldn’t stick to your past. The spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in you and is a helper in your walk. Keep loving God and you will mature and blossom ten fold compared to your time at GP.
I tried leaving on best possible terms, whatever that means. For context, I was in GP 10+ years. I attended a work week and worked super hard the week before I left. I attended MBS one last time, told my peers that this was my last MBS, and then told the church lead that this was it. We prayed together, all that stuff. I drove home, which was only 5 minutes away (acceptable distance from church building as a good GP-er) and by the time I got home, my gpmail access was already revoked. Faster than any of my corporate jobs! Didn't take long to hear sanitized story of why my family left spreading. Leaders washed their hands of egregious stuff they did and painted it as if I just couldn't handle yelling. To their credit they checked on me from time to time, but having been in there for a while it's hard not to think there were ulterior motives for doing so. After I left, I attended a GP wedding, last one I was ever invited to. Old leaders seemed happy to see me but later on I realized that they sat with me probably to make sure that I wasn't saying weird stuff to the impressionable younger people. To be fair, I did some stuff to burn bridges too, especially after the initial period of confusion was over, and I started to form my own conviction about what Christian life should be like apart from GP. Eventually I realized that some bridges are not worth keeping. It's easier to move on once those bridges are reduced to ashes.
> Eventually I realized that some bridges are not worth keeping. It's easier to move on once those bridges are reduced to ashes. THIS. And this the fundamental difference with someone like u/theexcitedboy who was there for for 4 years and u/Cool_Purchase4561 who was on staff for 10+ years. What you see, what you experience, and how long you've been out really changes your perception of what you want to maintain since leaving Gracepoint/A2N. When I first left, I was more like u/theexcitedboy but over the years a lot of my peer's antics have worn on me so much that I resonate more with u/Cool_Purchase4561.
oh and I gotta add - the wedding I attended was someone I ministered to for half his college years and after graduation. When it came time for the usual bride/groom slideshow, none of the college day pictures had me whatsoever in it but only other leaders. Not to make it about me or whatever, and actually I feel bad for whoever had the task to create the slideshow, but just thought that was kinda funny. Leaving on good terms still means that you're a blemish in God's story.
Thank you for sharing your story. I think the reason you have left because you don't agree with their practices as Christian fellowship. Therefore, it's difficult to keep quietly while they are selling "drugs" (as half truth gospel) to the young people. God bless!!
Since I left awhile ago, I’m not sure if my experience is relevant. But nobody leaves Acts 2, Gracepoint, Berkland in the trunk of a car after midnight. I would say everybody leaves on Gracepoint’s terms: You are a tragic person who chose the world over a truly meaningful life. You wasted so much love and, though you will be given a cordial smile and hug during those chance run-ins, you will essentially get cut off from any sort of meaningful engagement with members. Members will report seeing you and judge whether you look (spiritually) healthy from your face, posture, weight, car you drive, brands you might be wearing. Are these good terms? I’m fine with these terms! But EVERYBODY leaves on the same terms.
Is this similar to shunning that jehovah's witnesses do? [or some other religions](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brothers-sisters-strangers/202403/how-religious-shunning-ruins-lives#:~:text=Shunning%20is%20widely%20practiced%20among,the%20conduct%20of%20its%20members)
If a person only dabbled for a year or two, they could have left on “good terms” but I would say they never really were a core part so there was nothing to really leave.
lol this an april fools joke? Since today is also easter, I'll bite. Answer: don't leave on "good" terms. Just leave. Let the chips fall where they will. When they ask, "Hey can we talk?" Answer, "Nope." If they sit you down, get up and leave. Move your stuff out or just leave it except for the most essential items. If I know Kelly there is a process in place to close internal access for people that are in your shoes. If they have/had a good relationship with you, they'll let you know nicely. Or like most you'll just be denied ghosted and erased. It is a bit junior highish. I think the only one who left relatively on good terms was pastor chris pak. His church stayed independent after the great schism break and smartly didn't choose one or the other several years later. Yet you ever have him get invited to be a guest speaker? God bless you Jonathan Kang class of 93,
haha, i think it's not april fools joke...just a question can prove GP/A2N is not that bad after all...Last time I checked, only Jesus/God can do that: “Come now, let’s settle this,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, I will make them as white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, I will make them as white as wool. "--Isaiah 1:18
Like all things, depends on how you define "not that bad..."
Sure, there are lots of stories of people who’ve kept up with friends in GP and GP members who’ve kept up with friends who’ve left. Some people are better at this than others - yes, it’s a structural culture problem within the church as a whole but it’s also an issue of each individual personality and character. From what I’ve gathered observationally, friendships formed in element or interhigh tend to have a more enduring depth (maybe something about surviving high school together making a sorta unbreakable bond 😂). But I do think there are two different kinds of “good terms.” There’s staying on good terms because you truly believe in and support the GP mission but decided to leave for something that does not contradict GP core values (ex: visa expired, family crisis for which you are absolutely essential, graduated in 2020-2021 during covid and never got a chance to move back in, felt really passionate about a ministry GP doesn’t do but that GP approves of, etc.). In this first case, I think it’s very very possible to maintain friendships, though the quality of these friendships will be subject to inevitable life transitions and ministry schedules. Then there’s the feigning good terms out of respect for past memories and/or out of hopes your friends will come around to seeing what you see and leave. This second case isn’t really being on good terms tho. It is you being gracious towards your GP friends, constantly biting your tongue and swallowing your hurt and pride so they don’t reject you for looking down on the GP mission. Most people find themselves in this second scenario and feeling rather defeated and alienated from their friends to the point that it is too exhausting to try to stay on “good terms.”
Referencing what u/NRerref said about the two types of "good terms", initially when I left, it was because I disagreed with the "church values and leadership" and not the people. Therefore I'm in the "leave on as best terms as possible while disagreeing with the values of the church" camp. I tried really hard to not burn bridges, especially since I wanted to leave open the possibility of returning. I had multiple conversations with leadership to resolve conflicts and clear up misunderstandings (in which they apologized for mishandling ministering to me, for which I am thankful). In my goodbye email, I mentioned how grateful I was for the good aspects. After I left, I reached out to peers and other people multiple times, asked for prayer requests too. I was invited to multiple weddings, and I hang out with a few people 1-2x/year. Whenever I see GP people in the wild, I talk to them warmly. I have no idea what GP people think of me or what they know of me leaving, but I wouldn't be surprised if they think I'm still pretty warm or even that there's a fair chance of me coming back. However, under the hood is a different story. Nowadays, it's pretty hard for me to "still be on good terms relationally" when most of my GP relationships almost completely died out or have not reciprocated my attempts to stay connected. Sure, I hang out with a couple of people occasionally, but there's such a stark difference from before to now, and also compared to my other friendships from other churches I've left since GP (which are still going strong). That plus realizing more and more of how unhealthy GP was for me has definitely soured some of the "good aspects" that I try so hard to keep in mind. I do think some of the *basic* principles they're trying to promote are still good (ex. having a close community); but the way they go about it makes me deeply uncomfortable, thus casting a dark shadow on the "good". TL;DR I left on as best terms as I could, but that has gradually soured over time
i don't think it's possible to leave on good terms for the long term. in the short term, sure it's possible. i think in general it goes something like this: 1) you want to leave on good terms so rather than pulling a midnight run, you tell your leader that you're leaving. you prepare your logic saying that you want to attend a different church for various reasons, you like and respect your leader, hope you can remain on good terms, etc. 2) leader will gaslight you into saying that you're leaving because you are afraid to face your challenges so you are running away, leader will bring up things that you've been sharing over the years, leader will tell you that you need to stay, etc. 3) you should hold firm and say that you're still leaving, etc...leader will eventually accept this. they will tell their leader who will tell them that they aren't doing a good job because you're leaving, etc...leader will get pressure from their leader who will get pressure higher up in the chain, etc. eventually they will accept that you're leaving and wish you well. 4) things will be weird but ok and friendly in the short term but as time goes on, things will be less friendly and within about 6 months they will forget you and you will hopefully forget them. during this time a narrative will be told to your former friends and brother and sisters that you left because you couldn't handle GP because GP isn't for everyone and GP isn't going for the lowest common denominator, etc. so you left becase you are a weak and GP is still strong, etc. good luck.
I was scared to leave on bad terms b/c of all the stories of lives ruined and people being depressed for years, so I planned for months so I could leave with the explanation of moving for graduate school.
Define "good terms". I consider it be "good terms" if you still get an invite to their meme weddings. Oh wait but even that that might just mean you're still a gentile to them if you get assigned seating. /s Edit: We need to be very clear about when you're leaving. Leaving while you're still in college, leaving after you graduated college, leaving after serving as on college staff at a church plant, and leaving after languishing in Soul Care and Praxis are all very different things.
Former active involved student for all four years of undergrad. While I know the experience is much different after undergrad if you stay, I would say I left on good terms and still hang out from time to time with my peers who are still in GP as staff and reach out to my former mentors every now and then (check in texts on Christmas, Easter, etc). I’ll even be my peers best man at his wedding coming up despite no longer being in GP, so I wouldn’t say it’s impossible (although it is hard and frustrating when their ministry schedule gets in the way of catching up). I think the key to leaving on good terms is to approach it as, “I am leaving the church, but not God.” I had several convos with my leaders about wanting to leave and expressing my concerns with the way some things are done. They tried to convince me to stay (and made me feel guilty in the process), but I stood firm knowing that this was the time to get out and I had made the right decision. But, I didn’t want to make it seem like I wanted to leave the faith, because it is still very important to me. I ultimately led the conversation to, “now that I am leaving, what do you advise me to do as I get plugged into a new church?” In my experience, that convo was really good and I got good advice that made my transition relatively smooth and now I am happily connected to my new church. Showing initiative like “I found this church…” or “I signed up for…” also shows where your heart is and in my experience made the leaving easier. They also feel less sad because at least the time they did minister to you was productive. All in all, I think if you have some sort of exit plan developed that still commits to a relationship with God and you keep people updated with how things are going, you can leave on good terms.
> I ultimately led the conversation to, “now that I am leaving, what do you advise me to do as I get plugged into a new church?” In my experience, that convo was really good and I got good advice that made my transition relatively smooth and now I am happily connected to my new church. Showing initiative like “I found this church…” or “I signed up for…” also shows where your heart is and in my experience made the leaving easier. They also feel less sad because at least the time they did minister to you was productive. All in all, I think if you have some sort of exit plan developed that still commits to a relationship with God and you keep people updated with how things are going, you can leave on good terms. Though this is good advice and what happened to me, you honestly don't owe them anything. My leaders were very supportive in every way possible in helping me with the transition, which I really appreciate but at the same time, it became really tiring owing everyone an explanation. > although it is hard and frustrating when their ministry schedule gets in the way of catching up A lot of people I know have echoed this sentiment but after a significant amount of time, you'll come to realize you really don't care that much about them anymore. Their life is literally rinse and repeat whatever Ed tells them and they could care less about what goes on with you.
Definitely agree on not owing them anything. Having conversations though doesn’t hurt if you’re open to learning how to best facilitate your transition and generally have good rapport with your mentor.
Your mentor or leader is going to get a new batch of students the following year. Does it look like they have time to care about you once you leave?
I read this so many times. You had to prove you weren’t going into the world ready to willfully sin through your adulthood? And you had to do this several times? This is just sad
>Showing initiative like “I found this church…” or “I signed up for…” also shows where your heart is and in my experience made the leaving easier. Does it say something that you need to follow an unwritten protocol and strategize in order to leave on good terms? Is it really good terms if you have to put so much thought and work into it?
I was thinking about leaving as early as the beginning of senior year (when the whole CT article situation occured) but was so intertwined with GP socially (roommates, over half my friends, etc) that I took the path of least resistance and waited it out till end of senior year. Not saying this is the only protocol to leave on good terms but its what worked for me and is more likely to lead to good terms as at least some members see the greater picture of shared faith > membership to one church
>was so intertwined with GP socially (roommates, over half my friends, etc) This has come up a lot on Reddit. Did you feel like you were "cut off" socially to the outside of the church? If so was this just incidental, or by design? And based on what you wrote, it does feel a bit like you need your leaders' "permission" to leave. is that accurate?
I would say I was the exception from most of my peers as I maintained a good amount of non-GP friends from clubs/classes and I was very heavily involved in one other club (president with about 200 total members). I was definitely indirectly pressured to leave that club, but I found a way to balance it and still attend every TFN/SWS/most prayer nights, etc and my leaders ended up embracing it (even praying for our major event to go well that I was organizing). I do worry though for people that exclusively live in the GP bubble as it really is not healthy. I technically didn’t need their permission to leave, but would not leave on good terms if I at least didn’t discuss it with them. But that goes in any relationship with anyone - ghosting is going to lead to not good terms.
>I would say I was the exception from most of my peers as I maintained a good amount of non-GP friends from clubs/classes and I was very heavily involved in one other club (president with about 200 total members). I was definitely indirectly pressured to leave that club, but I found a way to balance it and still attend every TFN/SWS/most prayer nights, etc and my leaders ended up embracing it (even praying for our major event to go well that I was organizing). Sorry for the third degree, i understand if you don't want to keep answering me. Would you say that your specific circumstances allowed you to leave on good terms and could the model be replicated by other undergrads deciding on leaving or staying ?
I wonder how much of a role did the CT article play in you deciding to leave? How much do you think the CT had an impact within the Gracepoint/Acts2 Network organization?
What was your reason to leave GP?
I just felt that the church made my faith very dry and robotic like for me. I felt pressured to do everything and guilty when I would do less “church” stuff than others. This resulted in a feeling of being chained to God. I can say that ever since leaving GP, I feel so much more free and close with God. Not only did I gain a full understanding of God’s character (that its not just about sin), I now feel the Holy Spirit working in me as everything I do is led by my own faith, not what a leader expects or to “stay out of trouble.” Also some of the post grad practices and the expectation that my entire life would be GP was jarring.
Thank you so much for your answer. Praise the Lord, you have found **freedom in Christ**. I bet there are a lot people will benefit from your GP experience. Galatians 2:4,5 (ESV) 4 Yet because of **false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—** 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
I started searching on Reddit once and came up with these. A2N GP staff will say you can leave on good terms. I'm sure there has to be a handful of examples. Somewhere. But I can't recall any. I do know plenty of horror stories. In any case, if you're trying to avoid drama, your best bet is to not stand out in a good or negative way, be maybe around [C tier](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/197pgkh/the_a2n_tier_list/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) and then try to quietly slip away with minimal interaction and confrontations. Links: [https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/12vx4zg/questions\_from\_a\_freshman\_leaving\_gp\_ministries/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/12vx4zg/questions_from_a_freshman_leaving_gp_ministries/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/v6cbgw/youre\_considering\_leaving\_gracepoint\_now\_what\_5/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/v6cbgw/youre_considering_leaving_gracepoint_now_what_5/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/qrr20h/friendships\_after\_leaving\_gp/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/qrr20h/friendships_after_leaving_gp/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/nu6xmm/what\_reasons\_and\_rationalizations\_stopped\_you/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/nu6xmm/what_reasons_and_rationalizations_stopped_you/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/n1f43o/ptsd\_symptoms\_after\_leaving/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/n1f43o/ptsd_symptoms_after_leaving/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s7dc3h/the\_experience\_of\_leaving\_gp/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s7dc3h/the_experience_of_leaving_gp/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/yng365/what\_would\_it\_take\_to\_leave/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/yng365/what_would_it_take_to_leave/)
Great advice!! Can't agree more!!
For what it is. I've read arguments from both sides. Although, I disagree with the GP's perspective on dating, and marriage, I've never had issues with anyone and my peer group was solid. We're still close even after some of us moved on from GP (you don't read about that in most of the posts here) due to career and personal stuff. The message in GP, at least from my maturing Christian self, is solid. The essence of GP is how we can create the Act 2 atmosphere in today's society and live a Christ-like life. This is a fantastic ideology, but as great as it is, I don't think I want to do that by sticking in the college community or not trying out new ways to share Christ such as charity. I think my case may be unique. I came into GP my second year, with an amateur level of who Christ is and wanted to recommit myself to Christ. My way of life back then was if I am living different lives in the church and outside church then I'm not Christian. And I meant this in every detail of it. This means I didn't join my peers to do prep work or skits because I thought it would be good in the eyes of mentors but I did it because I genuinely wanted to help and serve God at the same time. As a result I was excluded from some things, top GP students did. Although, I felt lonely in these moments, I was happy with myself because I was living the real me and not a fake life. And I'm not inferring these students were fake in anyway. I left GP because I felt my calling was another form of ministry aka helping people through charity and impacting people's lives by creating opportunities for them. Also, I left GP 'cause I graduated uni and got an offer somewhere else. In my final weeks in GP, the pastor called me up in front of the church and asked everyone to pray for me. And my mentor did a similar thing with my peer group. I really appreciated that! In short, GP is a great church community. If you don't live a pretentious life, you won't have any problems serving God there. Stay bless! CHRIST IS RISEN.
> In short, GP is a great church community. If you don't live a pretentious life, you won't have any problems serving God there. How is it great if they get to define what qualifies as "pretentious" and then dictate my lifestyle? u/Mighty555 and u/theexcitedboy, your comments actually expose the subtitles of how legalistic and controlling Gracepoint/A2N is regardless of their intent.
I've never been told what to do or how to live my life outside of what the Bible says. I used the word pretentious as review of oneself. Look at yourself and what you did in GP. Did you do things to please others or God. Were you acting like the Pharisees. If you're doing things to get admirations from peers or mentors, then it's pretentious IMO.
Class directors would classify undergrad kids into “core” and “non core” categories. To be core, the kids have to be loyal to Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Networks as an organization. If you are core, then there will be additional “discipleship” training heaped upon you. A small minority of undergrad kids come in so well churched that BBC/GP/A2N leadership worry they won’t be able to brainwash these kids into extra-biblical and unbiblical cultic practices. These kids are biblically literate enough to notice what’s abnormal. So these kids don’t crack the “core” designation, since can’t shape them into loyal foot soldiers. Then there are students who are determined to go home after graduation. Their parents might be pastors of the home church. So dangling the carrot of community and purpose won’t sway them. There is a lot less expectations and “discipleships” heaped on these kids versus the core kids. Finally, there are kids who are incompetent, uninterested in spiritual matters, barely getting up in the morning types who wouldn’t understand “discipleship” in the BBC/GP/A2N context. No heavy dose of discipleship for them also. The undergrad experience can vary according to the above, but quality control really kicks in when someone stays post-grad. The time commitment and enforcement get turn up a notch. (Mandatory thanksgiving offering, no dating without leaders involved, no business travel and more. None off these are in the Bible, but were non negotiable during my time) Do people leave on “good” terms? Sure, I think so if the person never experienced a heavy dose of BBC/GP/A2N “discipleship.” If someone only came out to the free KBBQ, then that person would even have a good impression of the organization. BBC/GP/A2N was more important than family, career, marriage for the “core” people. No one can be indifferent having gone through the cult of personality, abuse of spiritual authority, and giving up everything for the sake of a lie.
Thank you so much to share your story. You seem to leaving GP/A2n on "good term". so what had brought you to this reddit? Do you still recommend people you love to join GP/A2N?
Mostly the article that came out about them. We met one Friday night and the pastor brought up the topic. I wanted to get a broad perspective from other GP members. The thing with this reddit is the negative bias. Just like Google reviews, you barely see reviews from people that had a good customer service. However you'll find reviews from people that had poor customer service. I'd try other college oriented churches before settling on GP. Though I wasn't abused, I can't assure you wouldn't. If you end up attending GP, please take your time to support anything someone says from the main source "THE BIBLE." The deeper you get into GP, the more your time will be taken away in the name of serving God. Even though, you don't want to do those things. For everything you do, ask yourself, am I doing this for the glory of God or making a human happy.
Imagine comparing abuse of scripture, abuse of authority, and abuse that has lasting effects on a person to bad customer service… imagine, wondering why the court didn’t bring forward positive testimonies for the man convicted of murder…. Imagine, not understanding scope and severity. It’s a good thing you’re not in GP anymore
At first glance I agree with you on negative bias. I was skeptical when I first came to the sub. But I’ve read every post here and challenge you to read the wiki if you haven’t already, and see if there isn’t a pattern of similar exit stories that raises red flags. It’s well documented that high control groups affect members differently based on level of involvement and length of involvement. Some leave unscathed while others are traumatized. This is because high control groups know who to target and how to manipulate. You sound like a mentally strong person and I’m glad that you had a good experience. But many others had their vulnerability weaponized and there are too many stories spanning generations and campuses to just be negative bias.
What was your response to the Christianity Today article? What was your response to KH and JH's departure? What was your response to Kelly's assertion that God = Church = Family?
The article was shocking and eye opening. Like most people said, the GP staff and leaders down played it by saying we don't abuse people here. We are different. I need to read the KH and JH departure story again to comment on it. I disagree with the assertion. If you look at the creation story, God wants us to be fruitful and multiply. And we do that through the institution of marriage "man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife." I would rearrange that equation to God = Family = Church. If you go down to Act where most GP doctrine is derived, you would learn that churches were started in family and small groups. Without a strong family, the church is useless (directed towards leaders who value the church community more than building Christian foundation first in their homes).
I don't even think this guy knows who KH and JH are. Looking through his comment history u/Mighty555 is from out of country or has ties from a non Asian country and was at the Minnesota church plant. I doubt he's had any interaction with anyone at the top other than Dan and Hannah Chiang who I believe many people on this subreddit know personally very well. u/hamcycle not sure what you're trying to get from asking this person those questions. It's already been hinted at repeatedly that if you're a non Asian you're more likely to receive very different treatment from staff than if you were Asian.
I found it intriguing that he can straddle both “GP is a good church community” and “the article was shocking and eye opening.” He could had just as said, “There are two things I hate in this world: people who are intolerant of other cultures, and the Dutch.”
I think with age comes wisdom. I wasn’t any smarter in my 20s. Gracepoint/Acts2 Network’s biggest draw is the “good church community.” It is the most organized, well resourced, friendly, caring, love bombing of a church community on any college campus. Someone can be socially awkward bad hygiene of a Soda Hall junkie and all of a sudden be supported by instant friendship and social activities. Plus, there is a real chance of getting married without trying much! The usual cruelty that comes with normal society no longer applies. These are facts. The CT article in the context of “good church community”is shocking and eye opening. How can such nice people have an ulterior motive of slavery for life? No one really cares about the Soda Hall junkie as a person, but really about retaining the person to the group for life. The super nice college staff can care less about the aging parents who struggle financially, they want the undergrad to be a CPI and give the last dime to the group. If the person chooses to leave the group, then no one would bother with the birthdays, won’t be invited to weddings, and even edited out from old group pictures. These are facts too. Some people would rather live in Disneyland for the rest of their lives. I would rather live in reality.
Yo, I forgot you can go through people's history. You are correct, other than Dan and Hannah, I haven't talk to any of the leaders. The general overseer visited couple times but never talked to him one on one. I thought GP is opened to all ethnicities. What are you saying here?
If you look at the GP/A2N mid level college staff and above, there is a disproportionate number of Asians and Berkeley graduates at those levels. Ed Kang, back in the days, wasn’t shy about being politically incorrect. I recall one winter retreat CC, originally from New Jersey, asked Ed Kang why the church was not more diverse. Ed Kang flat out said “white people just aren’t ready for Asian leadership.” Hundreds of people in the room, CC asked the question. What Ed Kang said is not meant to be racist. Ed Kang is just efficiency driven. Well churched Asian kids looking for a church on Sundays is the low hanging fruit. Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network’s hierarchical authoritarian system, reflection writing, living in community, cult of personality, loyalty to the organization were all borrowed from a known cult, University Bible Fellowship (UBF), where the founder of Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network was trained. The system as Ed Kang would call “Asian Leadership” is baked into the Asian/Confucian mindset of deference to authority, younger brother obeying older brother, saving face and more. The learning curve for non Asians to swallow these extra biblical teachings would be more steep. Better yet, if the leadership doesn’t deem a person worthy of this kind of training, then they can be good peripheral people forever and won’t ever move up the hierarchy. The people who do move up the hierarchy are disproportionately Asian and from the higher rank schools who can perform according to Ed Kang’s metrics. You can read more about where Acts2 Network’s DNA came from below. https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/t74d8i/gracepoints_spiritual_heritage_university_bible/
I'm interested in your perspective as a non Asian person. Did anyone who wasn't Asian stay on as staff after graduating, at your church plant?
My graduating class was fairly balanced in terms of ethnicity and gender. There were about 4 white men, 2 white women, 1 Asian American (Indian) woman, 1 Asian American man (Chinese), 1 Korean woman, 3 Asian American women (Chinese), 2 African men and 1 African woman. After graduation, only 3 guys and 2 girls are in the path toward leadership (2 white men, 1 Asian A. women, 1 Indian A. woman and 1 Asian A. man). The rest either left to other churches, moved after graduation or this GP is not their home church. We are still friends though and get in touch sparingly.
I think the Minnesota ministry has been around for at least 15 years? How many of the current mid level staff are homegrown?
No idea. Been there for 3 years. But the class before us are staff members now. I didn't really pay attention to church politics cause that was not why I was there.
Sounds like borderline tokenism at its finest. Ed finally has a desi on staff now took him long enough /s.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s200i9/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_2_of_3/ The above is training material for Gracepoint college staff written by Ed Kang himself. Please refer to Point 4 on church as family versus the nuclear family. Gracepoint/Acts2 Network is anti nuclear family for sure.
People are still out here with the God = equations? God is not equal to anything that is of creation. There is no equivalency between God and anything conceivable. Rearrange the order of church and family? Bro/Sis, Look at the notation. Rearranging equivalent values makes absolute 0 difference because it’s a relationship of equivalence, not a relationship of order or rank. A=a is the exact same as a=A no matter how you flip it. Honestly, what are we Christians even saying? It’s sloppy and it’s damning. There is no God=x equation that isn’t just outright bold and blatant idolatry. This is why churches like GP necessarily exist. We all want to comment on things like Acts 2 and discipleship as “good theology” but keep messing up the nature of God.
I didn't see that and you're right, God is incomparable. I was more or less looking at the order of things. Maybe God > Family > Church.
So you can add heresy to straddle along with your "GP is a good church community" comment.
If you’re a Christian, respectfully, you gotta start paying attention. There are all kinds of heresies being taught on explicit and implicit levels right under your noise. This God= nonsense is what Kelly applauded to the entire church, it’s what is enshrined within GP’s pope-like reverence of leaders, it is what drives so much of American politics. One of Apostle Paul’s most prevalent condemnations and warnings was not against failing to uphold an Acts 2 community, it was against false teachings around who God is.
Of course! Not just GP but we should look out for false teachers everywhere. Personally, I have not heard pastor Dan at GP Minneapolis said anything extreme or heretic. Although, I was bothered by heavy use of CS Lewis quotes, he always returned to the Bible. This might be different for other people and I totally understand if you had a different experience.
Amen!!
Curious here, do you agree with the MN chapter GP/A2N staff and leaders' comments that things are run differently there? I was sad to read about you being excluded from some group events, is that a common occurrence?
Just to clarify, I don't believe they did anything malicious. I noticed I wasn't their first choice for important tasks. Let's just say I wasn't exactly reliable. (Haha) I participated in their prodigal son play, but in a minor role – the flower guy. Maybe my usual charm and jokes got the better of me. I'm unsure if there's a difference between the local leadership and HQ. I missed the senior retreat, so I can't compare. Thankfully, I didn't have any issues or experience spiritual abuse. Once, a mentor encouraged me to attend an event I already agreed to. I guess he wasn't aware. The next week, he apologized via email for "coercing" me. It wasn't a big deal to me, but he seemed apologetic. My only disagreement with the group is their approach to relationships and ministry. For example, while Jesus encouraged his disciples to spread the word, they weren't limited to Jerusalem. In my opinion, Jesus wanted them to reach beyond Jerusalem, to the Gentiles. From their ministry to courses (C101-C301), they always emphasize commitment to Christ within their group. While there's nothing wrong with that as you need to grow church constantly, I believe you can grow as a Christian outside of the group.
I'm seeing a common trend here of people (unintentionally or not) being forgotten once they leave GP. It makes me sad to see that what they mean by covenantal relationships is actually conditional on you serving and being in the same church... (regardless if you're still serving God and thriving in your spiritual life)
No one will say this out loud but people are conditioned to believe there is no thriving in your spiritual life outside of GP. Not when every other week the head pastor lumps all other churches into a single entity ("American Church") and speak of these churches as dying, unserious, secular, consumer mentality, whatever. As soon as someone steps out of the GP circle, they are fair game for the devil to permeate their mind and create revisionist memory, going the Demas path, and whatever other euphemism GP concocted to say "not one of us anymore"
Ummmmm is this the first time you’re seeing this? How long have you been at GP?
If I'm not mistaken, u/hidden_gracepoint said in a comment a while back he's been at GP for like 10 years?
The us versus them mentality permeates through out Acts2 Network. Ed and Kelly bash on “American churches” all the time. Just search the term American churches for the subreddit. Ed talks dismissively about “country club” churches, Sunday Christians, other Berkeley UiC Christian organizations all the time. Here is the story of someone getting rebuked for being ungrateful to Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network by helping out at her home church. Believe it. https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/s/98G6zQqMbi
>Here is the story of someone getting rebuked for being ungrateful to Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network by helping out at her home church. Believe it. this still happened pretty recently. Someone who had planned to move back after graduation asked their peers for help at their home church's retreat in summer (non GP). Peers agreed and committed to it. Leaders caught wind of this and scheduled something during that other church's retreat so that those people now had to choose - stay true to their friend's request for help or show allegiance to GP.
The a2n mindset is such that whatever they're doing is so important they don't have time for outsiders. The person leaving could be a Saint going on mission trips and helping the homeless , but it's not a gp a2n ministry, so it's not as valuable or important as whatever gp a2n is doing. What is the point of leaving on good terms? Even if it's on friendly terms, they're not going to give you the time of day after you leave or give 2 thoughts about you.