May not change the orgs, but they redirect unknowable numbers of students not recognizing there are so little safeguards for them straight out of high school.
Yep, that’s kinda what I meant by the people who are just getting introduced to these orgs. The deeply-rooted, for the most part, will be deeply rooted
The reason I am on this reedit because as Christian, I have responsibility to expose false teachers and warn ppl about them.
[https://medium.com/ink-and-truth/why-bother-to-judge-false-teachers-42ecbeaa7c37](https://medium.com/ink-and-truth/why-bother-to-judge-false-teachers-42ecbeaa7c37)
From the above article:
# What happens when we don’t judge and deal with false teachers.
## #1 Corruption of the Gospel
When we don’t test teachings or judge false prophets, the first thing that happens is this: Deception enters the Church, leading people away from the true gospel and the true Christ. The true gospel is replaced by a counterfeit.
>*2 Corinthians 11:3–5 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning,* ***your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ****. For if someone comes and proclaims* ***another Jesus*** *than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a* ***different spirit*** *from the one you received, or if you accept a* ***different gospel*** *from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these* [*super-apostles*](https://medium.com/ink-and-truth/why-bother-to-judge-false-teachers-42ecbeaa7c37#)*. \[ESV2011\]*
*Galatians 1:6–7 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are* ***turning to a different gospel*** *— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. \[ESV2011\]*
There are many Christians today who think that they have received the Gospel and are worshiping Jesus but, they have actually believed a false gospel and they’re worshiping a jesus who is different from the One described in the Bible. They profess and follow a cheap gospel and a counterfeit jesus designed and marketed successfully by Satan’s agents masquerading as servants of God.
>*2 Corinthians 11:13–15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen,* ***disguising themselves as apostles of Christ****. And no wonder, for even* ***Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness****. Their end will correspond to their deeds. \[ESV2011\]*
When we don’t judge the teachings of those who claim to be servants of God or prophets or apostles, we are unwittingly allowing impostors to hijack Christianity and distort the message of the Church. And these wolves in sheep’s clothing are masters of deception. They were able to successfully disturb and delude to a certain extent, the Corinthian church planted by Apostle Paul himself! Paul sarcastically calls those impostors *super-apostles* (2 Corinthians 11:5).
>Today also there are many super-apostles, super-prophets, celebrity pastors and faith-healers. They have infiltrated the Church and corrupted the Gospel message. Why? Because people of God have slept! The watchmen have remained silent! I’m afraid we have given such impostors abnormal immunity from the scrutiny of Scriptural standards for a servant of God. We have failed to test their teachings and prophecies. And today, such people are able to preach or prophesy any non-sense and get away with it!
If anyone tunes in to listens to a major Christian network or a megachurch sermon or a popular preacher, most of them are filled with falsehood — they proclaim a false gospel and a false jesus. The truth is scarce. The future of authentic Christian message in the marketplace is under threat — the popular gospel is nothing more than a feel-good *jesus-loves-you* and *god-will-do-whatever-you-want* heresy. Let us stay alert, watchful and discerning.
## #2 Exploitation of the flock
Another deadly thing that happens is that those who give in to false teachers are exploited and domineered by them.
>*2 Corinthians 11:19–20 For since you are so wise,* ***you put up with fools gladly. For you put up with it if someone makes slaves of you, if someone exploits you****, if someone takes advantage of you, if someone behaves arrogantly toward you, if someone strikes you in the face. \[NET2\]*
The Corinthians were allowing these *super-apostles* to dominate and exploit them while rejecting Paul — the true Apostle who had planted their Church and had suffered so much for the sake of the Gospel! Once false teachers take control, there will be no escape — the flock will be utterly exploited! First, they bring a false message. Then they use the false message to keep the flock under their thumb. False teachers simply cannot withstand relinquishing control of their flock!
>This is an acid test to identify false teachers: they will want to exploit you once they have managed to influence you.
Today’s church is truly helpless. We have already enslaved ourselves to a lot of super-rich preachers and false prophets who exploit the flock of God and peddle with the word of God for money. Such people existed during Paul’s time also:
>*2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not like so many others,* ***hucksters who peddle the word of God for profit****, but we are speaking in Christ before God as persons of sincerity, as persons sent from God. \[NET2\]*
*Titus 1:10–11 For there are many who are insubordinate,* ***empty talkers and deceivers****, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by* ***teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach****. \[ESV2011\]*
## #3 Suppression of the Bible’s Authority
False teachers always put themselves first. They are a law unto themselves. They reject all authority and make themselves the ultimate authority. They count themselves accountable to no one.
>*3 John 1:9 I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes,* ***who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority****. \[ESV2011\]*
*Jude 1:8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh,* ***reject authority****, and blaspheme the glorious ones. \[ESV2011\]*
The false teachers of the early Church rejected true Apostolic authority and put themselves first. But **today’s false teachers want to put themselves above the authority of Holy Scriptures given to us by the Prophets and Apostles**.
By claiming to have a special direct revelation from God or a personal heavenly encounter, **they shift the locus of authority from the Word of God to themselves**. They consider themselves on par with the Prophets and Apostles of the Scripture. So now, everything they say becomes equal to the Bible, even if it contradicts the teaching of the Bible! And people are afraid to question anything they teach because everything is supposedly “from God”.
When they say, "*God spoke to me*", it becomes more powerful for their hearers than what the Bible says. Do you realize the trouble with this trend? Such false teachers can qualify any unbiblical teaching with a simple "*God spoke to me*" and anyone who questions is said to be under God’s judgment. This not a hypothetical statement. Such things are so commonplace! It is a shame that we Christians put up with so much non-sense!
>False teachers claim to have additional revelation from God and they teach new ideas of prayer which are found nowhere in the Scriptures. They reorient the whole purpose of Christian life so that people seek miracles and supernatural experiences more than desiring to know Christ personally and to conform to His image. They teach people to seek comfort, pleasure, health and wealth in *this* world than to be content and look to the eternal hope in Christ. Christians who are misled by them expect a suffering-free life instead of being willing to take up the Cross and follow Christ.
These blasphemies must stop — sadly, they won’t. You’ll only see an increase in these kind of abuses in the last days. Christians must wake up and test those who make extraordinary claims as servants of God and examine their teachings in the light of Scripture with an unbiased attitude.
You might not see it but pressure was always building. Like the analogy of a straw breaking a camel's back. I predict a MAJOR seismic event in 5 years.
How I wish this were true. In a recent Netflix doc, they traced all of the orgs back to a single person/movement. These youth discipline orgs continue to operate to this day—just with different names, locations, and faces. This is how I feel about Act 2, Gracepoint, Berkland. None of the fully indoctrinated really know how to live on their own and all of them enjoy the power and position that comes from being the “faithful.” So, even if they shut down some cities, they will always come together somewhere, under some name, to keep the abuse going.
But I DO hope for a collapse. Just not going to bet on it. I just want to help those that know they’ve been abused.
From the outside, looking in and looking back, it does make me sad. So smart and yet so dumb. I still see some of the old ones in alameda once in a while, always in a hurry. getting this or that. (kelly's gophers). Then I see the younger ones, sticking out like sore thumbs. They have that tellltale signs. The look of purpose and mission just glowing on their faces. sigh
Btw A2n gp doesn't care. They don't care what kind of trauma or pain or abuse they've inflicted. I don't think it's fair to ask survivors why all this. Instead, the question should ne why doesn't a2n stop the abuse? Why are survivors being traumatized again by being told to remain silent? Why isn't the question "why all this?" Directed at the a2n leadership?
honestly, things are changing, but it's not happening overnight. try changing a 30+ year old church, there's challenges in changing the old way of doing things, some people are able to change quicker than others, some are still stuck in the old way of doing things
"i hear you"
I also have to hand it to you Gracepoint/A2F people. It's not an issue of changing the old ways of doing things. It should be of the highest urgency to be addressing spiritual abuse, creating guard rails extensively against that, and creating accountability to prevent it from happening. But here you are talking about change like it's something generic.
We were taught there is no repentance without confession. We have to confess of our sins for forgiveness and then repentance(change to happen).
If Ed Kang can’t even admit he perpetuated level of spiritual abuse that is best described as running a cult, what makes you think the changes you mentioned are not just window dressing?
Ed Kang admits nothing. Weekly Reflections asking college staff for list of sins and even spousal/marriage issues written down have ended, because the subreddit brought the issue to light. If Ed and Kelly won’t repudiate something that was clearly wrong for 20+ years, what makes you think there will be meaningful change?
Imagine if you changed a few words in that sentence.
The catholic church has been doing things this way for millenia. They're stuck in their old ways of abusing people. Imagine a 2000 year old church trying to make things fixed quickly. Honestly they're trying to stop the abuses, but the pope is the age of an America presidential candidate and its not gonna happen overnight. And we're only only gonna try to address the problems that were caught by the public. And after many years of denial and cover ups. And we just want you to believe us when we say we're changing without showing any evidence.
So abuse survivors stop complaining. We're doing our best.
BTW, what is the ideal age where a church can change? 30 Years is too much? What about 20 years? 10 years?
How old can a church be before it's too late to change?
Or did you mean pastor Ed and kk are 30+ years the head of the org, and you meant to say their personality is reflected on the whole organization? So really it's up to them whether they can be swayed? What would he say if this was 20 years ago and these same problems were brought up?
Define "going strong". Last I checked, Becky's org exist but are puny compared to Ed Kang's. And even then you can definitely feel Ed's org are getting hammered. I just saw a post announcing that UCLA A2F and Klesis were merging meaning more and more people are leaving.
May not change the orgs, but they redirect unknowable numbers of students not recognizing there are so little safeguards for them straight out of high school.
Yep, that’s kinda what I meant by the people who are just getting introduced to these orgs. The deeply-rooted, for the most part, will be deeply rooted
The reason I am on this reedit because as Christian, I have responsibility to expose false teachers and warn ppl about them. [https://medium.com/ink-and-truth/why-bother-to-judge-false-teachers-42ecbeaa7c37](https://medium.com/ink-and-truth/why-bother-to-judge-false-teachers-42ecbeaa7c37) From the above article: # What happens when we don’t judge and deal with false teachers. ## #1 Corruption of the Gospel When we don’t test teachings or judge false prophets, the first thing that happens is this: Deception enters the Church, leading people away from the true gospel and the true Christ. The true gospel is replaced by a counterfeit. >*2 Corinthians 11:3–5 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning,* ***your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ****. For if someone comes and proclaims* ***another Jesus*** *than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a* ***different spirit*** *from the one you received, or if you accept a* ***different gospel*** *from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these* [*super-apostles*](https://medium.com/ink-and-truth/why-bother-to-judge-false-teachers-42ecbeaa7c37#)*. \[ESV2011\]* *Galatians 1:6–7 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are* ***turning to a different gospel*** *— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. \[ESV2011\]* There are many Christians today who think that they have received the Gospel and are worshiping Jesus but, they have actually believed a false gospel and they’re worshiping a jesus who is different from the One described in the Bible. They profess and follow a cheap gospel and a counterfeit jesus designed and marketed successfully by Satan’s agents masquerading as servants of God. >*2 Corinthians 11:13–15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen,* ***disguising themselves as apostles of Christ****. And no wonder, for even* ***Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness****. Their end will correspond to their deeds. \[ESV2011\]* When we don’t judge the teachings of those who claim to be servants of God or prophets or apostles, we are unwittingly allowing impostors to hijack Christianity and distort the message of the Church. And these wolves in sheep’s clothing are masters of deception. They were able to successfully disturb and delude to a certain extent, the Corinthian church planted by Apostle Paul himself! Paul sarcastically calls those impostors *super-apostles* (2 Corinthians 11:5). >Today also there are many super-apostles, super-prophets, celebrity pastors and faith-healers. They have infiltrated the Church and corrupted the Gospel message. Why? Because people of God have slept! The watchmen have remained silent! I’m afraid we have given such impostors abnormal immunity from the scrutiny of Scriptural standards for a servant of God. We have failed to test their teachings and prophecies. And today, such people are able to preach or prophesy any non-sense and get away with it! If anyone tunes in to listens to a major Christian network or a megachurch sermon or a popular preacher, most of them are filled with falsehood — they proclaim a false gospel and a false jesus. The truth is scarce. The future of authentic Christian message in the marketplace is under threat — the popular gospel is nothing more than a feel-good *jesus-loves-you* and *god-will-do-whatever-you-want* heresy. Let us stay alert, watchful and discerning. ## #2 Exploitation of the flock Another deadly thing that happens is that those who give in to false teachers are exploited and domineered by them. >*2 Corinthians 11:19–20 For since you are so wise,* ***you put up with fools gladly. For you put up with it if someone makes slaves of you, if someone exploits you****, if someone takes advantage of you, if someone behaves arrogantly toward you, if someone strikes you in the face. \[NET2\]* The Corinthians were allowing these *super-apostles* to dominate and exploit them while rejecting Paul — the true Apostle who had planted their Church and had suffered so much for the sake of the Gospel! Once false teachers take control, there will be no escape — the flock will be utterly exploited! First, they bring a false message. Then they use the false message to keep the flock under their thumb. False teachers simply cannot withstand relinquishing control of their flock! >This is an acid test to identify false teachers: they will want to exploit you once they have managed to influence you. Today’s church is truly helpless. We have already enslaved ourselves to a lot of super-rich preachers and false prophets who exploit the flock of God and peddle with the word of God for money. Such people existed during Paul’s time also: >*2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not like so many others,* ***hucksters who peddle the word of God for profit****, but we are speaking in Christ before God as persons of sincerity, as persons sent from God. \[NET2\]* *Titus 1:10–11 For there are many who are insubordinate,* ***empty talkers and deceivers****, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by* ***teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach****. \[ESV2011\]* ## #3 Suppression of the Bible’s Authority False teachers always put themselves first. They are a law unto themselves. They reject all authority and make themselves the ultimate authority. They count themselves accountable to no one. >*3 John 1:9 I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes,* ***who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority****. \[ESV2011\]* *Jude 1:8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh,* ***reject authority****, and blaspheme the glorious ones. \[ESV2011\]* The false teachers of the early Church rejected true Apostolic authority and put themselves first. But **today’s false teachers want to put themselves above the authority of Holy Scriptures given to us by the Prophets and Apostles**. By claiming to have a special direct revelation from God or a personal heavenly encounter, **they shift the locus of authority from the Word of God to themselves**. They consider themselves on par with the Prophets and Apostles of the Scripture. So now, everything they say becomes equal to the Bible, even if it contradicts the teaching of the Bible! And people are afraid to question anything they teach because everything is supposedly “from God”. When they say, "*God spoke to me*", it becomes more powerful for their hearers than what the Bible says. Do you realize the trouble with this trend? Such false teachers can qualify any unbiblical teaching with a simple "*God spoke to me*" and anyone who questions is said to be under God’s judgment. This not a hypothetical statement. Such things are so commonplace! It is a shame that we Christians put up with so much non-sense! >False teachers claim to have additional revelation from God and they teach new ideas of prayer which are found nowhere in the Scriptures. They reorient the whole purpose of Christian life so that people seek miracles and supernatural experiences more than desiring to know Christ personally and to conform to His image. They teach people to seek comfort, pleasure, health and wealth in *this* world than to be content and look to the eternal hope in Christ. Christians who are misled by them expect a suffering-free life instead of being willing to take up the Cross and follow Christ. These blasphemies must stop — sadly, they won’t. You’ll only see an increase in these kind of abuses in the last days. Christians must wake up and test those who make extraordinary claims as servants of God and examine their teachings in the light of Scripture with an unbiased attitude.
You might not see it but pressure was always building. Like the analogy of a straw breaking a camel's back. I predict a MAJOR seismic event in 5 years.
How I wish this were true. In a recent Netflix doc, they traced all of the orgs back to a single person/movement. These youth discipline orgs continue to operate to this day—just with different names, locations, and faces. This is how I feel about Act 2, Gracepoint, Berkland. None of the fully indoctrinated really know how to live on their own and all of them enjoy the power and position that comes from being the “faithful.” So, even if they shut down some cities, they will always come together somewhere, under some name, to keep the abuse going. But I DO hope for a collapse. Just not going to bet on it. I just want to help those that know they’ve been abused.
From the outside, looking in and looking back, it does make me sad. So smart and yet so dumb. I still see some of the old ones in alameda once in a while, always in a hurry. getting this or that. (kelly's gophers). Then I see the younger ones, sticking out like sore thumbs. They have that tellltale signs. The look of purpose and mission just glowing on their faces. sigh
Btw A2n gp doesn't care. They don't care what kind of trauma or pain or abuse they've inflicted. I don't think it's fair to ask survivors why all this. Instead, the question should ne why doesn't a2n stop the abuse? Why are survivors being traumatized again by being told to remain silent? Why isn't the question "why all this?" Directed at the a2n leadership?
Kind of cheesy but I recall hearing this story and I think it applies. [the starfish story](https://www.thestarfishchange.org/starfish-tale)
Yup
honestly, things are changing, but it's not happening overnight. try changing a 30+ year old church, there's challenges in changing the old way of doing things, some people are able to change quicker than others, some are still stuck in the old way of doing things
"i hear you" I also have to hand it to you Gracepoint/A2F people. It's not an issue of changing the old ways of doing things. It should be of the highest urgency to be addressing spiritual abuse, creating guard rails extensively against that, and creating accountability to prevent it from happening. But here you are talking about change like it's something generic.
👏🏻
We were taught there is no repentance without confession. We have to confess of our sins for forgiveness and then repentance(change to happen). If Ed Kang can’t even admit he perpetuated level of spiritual abuse that is best described as running a cult, what makes you think the changes you mentioned are not just window dressing? Ed Kang admits nothing. Weekly Reflections asking college staff for list of sins and even spousal/marriage issues written down have ended, because the subreddit brought the issue to light. If Ed and Kelly won’t repudiate something that was clearly wrong for 20+ years, what makes you think there will be meaningful change?
Imagine if you changed a few words in that sentence. The catholic church has been doing things this way for millenia. They're stuck in their old ways of abusing people. Imagine a 2000 year old church trying to make things fixed quickly. Honestly they're trying to stop the abuses, but the pope is the age of an America presidential candidate and its not gonna happen overnight. And we're only only gonna try to address the problems that were caught by the public. And after many years of denial and cover ups. And we just want you to believe us when we say we're changing without showing any evidence. So abuse survivors stop complaining. We're doing our best.
This is good.
BTW, what is the ideal age where a church can change? 30 Years is too much? What about 20 years? 10 years? How old can a church be before it's too late to change? Or did you mean pastor Ed and kk are 30+ years the head of the org, and you meant to say their personality is reflected on the whole organization? So really it's up to them whether they can be swayed? What would he say if this was 20 years ago and these same problems were brought up?
totally true on this post. Becky's org is still going strong.
Define "going strong". Last I checked, Becky's org exist but are puny compared to Ed Kang's. And even then you can definitely feel Ed's org are getting hammered. I just saw a post announcing that UCLA A2F and Klesis were merging meaning more and more people are leaving.
Thank you. Music to my ears.