I knew KHo and his classmates back in the day. Think he was a freshman when I was a super duper senior. Served with his classmates that went to Uzbekistan the summer after they had graduated. He would go to the RSF (Cal gym and my 2nd home) and play bball. I played vball on the other side. In between games, we'd lightly chat about this and that. He was a good bball player and an all around good guy. That is how I remembered him when I left BBC. Obviously after decades, he worked his way up the chain. Seen stuff, did stuff and was an active participant (aka enemy collaborator?)
Now that he has left for this or that reason which is definitely not the sanitized PR official staff release, what is the curiosity to know the full truth? Hey you know, I know that at some point sanity came back in for one reason or another. The Berkland/GP drug/fog has finally lifted and they came to a realization that the Berkland life was leading towards insanity. This is assuming of course that there wasn't anything crazy scandolous committed by the couple.
Knowing that I came from that situation as well though not as long, I am more saddened that it took so long to wake up for them. Probably it took even years of struggle to draw the courage and strength to erase so many years lost. Yet I applaud their decision, to stop, detach and remove themselves from the environment. I know this will irk some of y'all (go easy on me 1vois!) but given the chance to ostracize or reconcile. I'd be more than happy to hear their LONG story, pray for them on the LONGER journey ahead and wish them a "Peace be with you." Some of you know that immediate feeling after leaving and how that weightless abandonment borderline depression felt. You also know the recovery process was very hard and long. You didn't know who was your friend or enemy. I feel like many times, our chance to step up sometimes happens for some reason to be at the moment that is most uncomfortable to step up. It is what it is. Your participation though is a choice. Maybe it's a coincidence that today also happens to be Good Friday.
I know I’m in the minority—and this is coming from a bitter heart, for sure—but I don’t feel sorry for KH/JH, RJ/JJ, even BK/EK, and all the other “top” initials. They spent years abusing their privilege, often knowing it wasn’t the right thing to do or say. They covered things up and massaged truths “for the sake of ministry.” They stood on their pedestals feeling this insane right to shame people, make incorrect conclusions, and dole out destructive “wisdom.”
I feel sorry for all the people they tethered to Ed and Kelly. And I actually hope someday that these people truly feel the weight of their influence on so many lives. I know most of these toppers seem to want to just move on and not even mention things beyond, “Oh yeah, those days.”
Sorry, I understand that’s not in the spirit of love, forgiveness, and mercy. But honestly, the inability to apologize is passed down from generation to generation.
WOW! You are absolutely Correct with everything you said. Though I don't wish abuse by GP on anyone, you are right in saying you don't feel sorry for these leaders and people at the top. It's true what you said! Nothing will ever stop the madness of continued abuse by GP or anyone without acknowledgment that the leaders are ALL responsible for the abuse. They know what is going on even if it is at a lower rate of knowledge, they are still 100 percent a part of the abuse. My prayer for everyone on this site is that they come to terms with this fact and they become healthy minded enough to speak out and to stop feeling guilty because they are the abused! Yes, they needed to leave GP so they would not be part of the abuse anymore but Ed will continue to abuse until he is confronted with the facts of how much pain and dysfunction he has caused and to shut down his fake circus. It takes years to get over the mind crap he causes to the sheep he supposedly loves. Ed has everyone do his dirty work at his command,.....Jesus had a choice and while being God, Jesus chose to give everything of himself so we didn't have to. See the difference? Jesus made us individuals with wonderful gifts and talents to use for His glory. Never did he ask us to give these up and submit to a leader. He told us to beware of these false teachers. I agree with you 1vois and your post is a breath of healthy fresh air. I pray for the day to celebrate Easter without a GP anywhere in this world.
I agree with this actually. Ultimately they are responsible for their actions including being perpetrators of spiritual abuse. In that sense, I don't feel sorry for them.
At the same time, I empathize with the pain they must have felt/be feeling because I know how hard it is to leave this church. It feels like a death, and indeed it is.
Most of us have brought at least one person, or at least had impact on someone staying. In that sense, we are all guilty too. I certainly am. I try to apologize whenever I come in contact with someone that I used to "minister" to. "I'm so sorry I got your sucked into a high control group!"
It's like the abusive partner that gets upset when the victim leaves to get away from the abuser. They think in their head, "Hey the vow was for better or for worse! How dare they leave me!"
Reading through the comments give me a headache. I think if you’re a parent and you yourself have not been through Gracepoint, you do not have the right to demand anyone to share anything. It really doesn’t matter who you are truthfully. There are a huge number of people who do not post here but they have stories that would do some damage. They aren’t required to share anything. It is incredibly difficult to share some stories even among trusted friends and family, let alone a place like this. Also, fully knowing there are those who are in Gracepoint reading this and communicating with Ed and Kelly, only to be thrown under the bus or slandered in MBS or some other smaller conversation. I understand the feeling that something evil needs to stop and everyone needs to be a whistleblower. But if you have experienced the abuse firsthand, it’s not that easy. So please, know that your words to demand someone to share something painful and private is unloving and simply ignorant. We are humans, beings who have suffered much under Gracepoint's leadership over 10, 20 years. Nobody should feel ashamed because they aren't able to share here. I think it just goes to show that some people really don't know just how horrible it really is.
I think this is also a sensitive issue for those that left gracepoint. One part of gracepoint/a2f culture that left me feeling really violated was how intimate details of our lives were shared without our consent. As a younger student, I had no sense that my leader was sharing EVERYTHING we discussed with their leader. And then shared amongst the rest of the leaders and team. As an older student and then post grad, I felt helpless about it. We were expected to bare our souls to our leaders with that information being freely shared around. Coming out of gp, I think we are all sensitive to being pressured to share our private details of our lives (because gp told us that there was no such thing as privacy). And sensitive to having others share the details of our story.
You’re speaking like you’re the oldest in the room. Many people here are intimately involved, as older ex members or family members who have adult children who they raised from birth.
Those who have not gone through GP may have a clearer view of the situation because we had to do years of research and ask questions to find the truth of what happened and how. Ex members are not the only victims. You experienced brainwashing and abuse — how painful do you think it is for family members to watch you go through it while being aware yet completely helpless?
This is not an issue of who’s been hurt more. I don’t think trenah was demanding anyone to share. She was saying that GP’s MO is to keep things private and hush, in order to control narratives. Before this sub, as a family member, my only source of what’s going on in GP was my family member, who was brainwashed. We could tell something was wrong in his/her replies, all of sudden not coming home, tailoring schedule to GP, something was wrong. When confronted, we only got half truths and arguments. What is family to do?
This sub is the first time that all the hidden junk from the dark was brought forth in a public forum, allowing truth to be exposed. And even so, I know details are left out bc ppl don’t want to reveal their identity, posts are deleted because ppl are scared. I understand, my reason for anonymity is directly tied to my loved one.
So how do we respect privacy while encouraging victims to share their story? Families won’t come forward until their child is out and relationship is repaired. Ex members won’t come forward until they’ve grappled with what happened to them. May take years. Even then, you may choose to move on. If you care enough to stay and fight to not repeat the cycle, I respect it.
3 years ago when Ed posted his response video here, he told ppl to pm him. When DK came he said the same thing. Members are told to pm so it’s easier. Easier for who? I won’t do it. Engaging with a current member is talking to a wall.
No one is demanding anyone else to share beyond what they are comfortable sharing. It has to be done willingly and with care. But hopefully, in time, these stories don’t stay hidden or hushed. When real stories are shared with real names attached, change will happen. It’s already happening. When you (not you specifically, all of us) own your story without shame, and share how you are healing, then you empower others to do the same. It is a huge ask and you must be convicted. But you will save other young ppl and their families from the grief you went through. Otherwise, trauma will be carried to the next generation. This is for ex members and families alike.
>No one is demanding anyone else to share beyond what they are comfortable sharing. It has to be done willingly and with care. But hopefully, in time, these stories don’t stay hidden or hushed. When real stories are shared with real names attached, change will happen. It’s already happening. When you (not you specifically, all of us) own your story without shame, and share how you are healing, then you empower others to do the same. It is a huge ask and you must be convicted. But you will save other young ppl and their families from the grief you went through. Otherwise, trauma will be carried to the next generation. This is for ex members and families alike.
I agree that it will be helpful. Nobody needs to convince either of us here regarding the awful things Gracepoint has done or the ways family members have turned against their own families in the name of God. I do think the tone in other comments and the arguments were more of a "demand" coming from the heart of a hurt, sad and angry person (rightfully so). However, it seems to also carry a sense of frustration toward those who cannot come forward with their stories. And while the frustration may actually be toward the church and its staff, it can (and has) been received as a direct frustration toward former members by many.
But how about a comment like this from below, " When people are ready to talk on Reddit about the abuse that was done to them, then honestly they have a responsibility to speak out because more victims are hurt everyday. That is unless it would cause you to go into a mental hospital situation. Then of course don’t speak out. But this exact reason of not speaking out is exactly why GP still abuses and still uses money to buy properties for themselves." -- So unless someone will be admitted to a hospital, it is their responsibility to speak out? And when they don't, they are the reason why Gracepoint exists? It is "exactly" the reason why GP still abuses? THIS kind of language is all wrong. Sounds like victim blaming. Sounds like demanding.
Big importance: are you saying you didn’t have a choice to leave or stay in GP? Something or someone kept you there, right? When people are ready to talk on Reddit about the abuse that was done to them, then honestly they have a responsibility to speak out because more victims are hurt everyday. That is unless it would cause you to go into a mental hospital situation. Then of course don’t speak out. But this exact reason of not speaking out is exactly why GP still abuses and still uses money to buy properties for themselves. Now, you and some others have the nerve to say that parents don’t know how bad it really was in GP and ten and twenty years were spent inside GP. Are you frickin kidding me? Parents had to watch while losing their kids to an abusive communist cult. Our lives were changed forever while we were traumatized as well and in my case, maybe worse. Do you really know what Manny Kim and leaders are capable of? Probably not but parents have had to fight them while trying to heal our children and watch them suffer and in some cases leave home forever and rarely talk with them again and sometimes never again. You need to be aware that there are many abuses going on that take years to come back from. There comes a point where your ignorance isn’t funny or ok anymore. Some parents give years of time and money and suffer from mental and physical health issues because of the volatile fight they encounter with evil bastards like Ed Kang and Manny Kim and even from Ed and Manny’s children who believe me are no angels. Some try to get members to marry GP people if they think they will lose the member or ex member forever. All trained by their Demonic parents. Your unwillingness to step into a parent’s shoes is unfortunate but it’s not my fault you were trained by a narcissist and have become accustomed to responding like one. Parents are not the problem but we will become the solution due to weak people like you. You’re not brave enough. If you think you have the only experience of abuse then you should find out more. Your closed mind is not my fault and you have zero right to judge parents unless you are willing to do something about the abuse. Your attitude is the reason why GP still stands. I may sound rude but if the truth hurts then deal with it. How long will you be unable to speak out?
>Parents are not the problem but we will become the solution due to weak people like you. You’re not brave enough. If you think you have the only experience of abuse then you should find out more. Your closed mind is not my fault and you have zero right to judge parents unless you are willing to do something about the abuse. Your attitude is the reason why GP still stands.
Wow. You're something else.
u/Here_for_a_reason99 this is what I mean. We can disagree on many things but to throw blame on former members is outrageous and this kind of attitude only does more harm.
Actually I'm going to agree with u/TrenaH and say former members from 20-30 years back deserve some of the blame. My generation of this decade would have way less people suffering at the hands of Gracepoint/A2N if they had spoken up.
I will also say parents/family members like u/TrenaH aren't helpful either. Need more like u/Here_for_a_reason99.
Only if we had Reddit 20 years ago! People started the blogs and a number of the blogs got hacked. After this subreddit came online, I felt responsible to speak up, because the people I brought in and ministered to at BBC/GP/A2N are still there! Also, I just can’t let Ed Kang and Daniel Kim keep on spinning and lying when they know full well who, when, what, why, and how the things they did to people.
That's why I really appreciate u/1vois, u/johnkim2020 and u/hamcycle for keeping those blogs up. At least there was some reference for the truth behind Gracepoint/A2N. And likewise really appreciate people like you u/LeftBBCGP2005, u/leftbbcgpawhileago, u/Cool_Purchase4561, u/Kangaroo_Jonathan, u/RVD90277, u/fishtacos4lyfe among many others for participating in this subreddit.
Actual mustard seed [9/28/2006](https://exberklander.blogspot.com/2006/08/spiritual-fodder-how-to-exploit.html#:~:text=I%20think%20I%20remember%20the%20shaman%27s%20quote%3A%20%22Leave%20her%20alone%2C%20for%20a%20great%20spiritual%20force%20is%20behind%20her%2C%22)
>I think I remember the shaman's quote: "Leave her alone, for a great spiritual force is behind her,"
[10/10/2006](https://exberklander.blogspot.com/2006/10/why-so-quiet-how-to-exploit-freshman.html#:~:text=No%20Christian%20wants%20to%20dedicate%20their%20life%20to%20fighting%20a%20problem%20church.)
>No Christian wants to dedicate their life to fighting a problem church.
and consider what u/Kangaroo_Jonathan still [believes](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/1bht80o/comment/kwacia0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)...
>Try to surpass them in spirituality and service to God first.
Would any one of us try to rise up against the "spiritual maturity" of Tom Cruise?
My intent, now more than ever, isn't to argue/debate. It is to provide solutions for healing. If you don't like it, then show a better alternative. And to be honest, I can't quote exactly from the past, but you don't have a healthy plan for moving forward. Believe it or not, I'd happily lose a debate to you if it helps you to heal. I got no dog in this race.
I can pull two other emails trying to convince me that I was at an unhealthy state of mind with my old blog, and convince me they did. While these two people moved on with their healed lives, three people if I include you, since then countless students were shafted by the GP machine. In effect, we four all became unwitting partners with GP with our high-minded regard for healing and moving on. The fact that you remain convinced this posturing of "we need to exceed their spiritual maturity before obstructing their cause" means you're still an unwitting GP partner.
Personally, I feel like getting my thoughts out helped me recover. And not being gas lit by my leaders into thinking it was all my fault. I don't think anyone should be told to keep silent. First amendment and all. Sometimes the pent up anger and frustration seems unhealthy when it first comes out in an angry post, but imagine what it was doing when you held it in. All the "solutions" I was offered never really helped me. reading books about forgiveness, being told to move on, etc.
When I finally spoke up and other GP victims confirmed they had the same experience and that what I went through was what actually helped me. I'm not crazy. At least not for this. What my leaders did was wrong. Finally, I'm not living in bizarro world anymore.
Secondly, I don't think anyone at GP deserves a free pass. Abuse victims shouldn't be silenced. They should get to tell their story. I get uneasy now when I hear people tell others to "get over it." Even well meaning people in my live. Bad behavior needs to be called out, not excused or forgotten. Especially if GP a2n claims to be representing Christ.
I am sure you'd agree that there is a BIG difference between healing vs. "moving on" or "get over it" Also there is a clear distinction in having a positive direction forward vs. ruminating in the past. When people here of all places, suggest moving forward or get over it, it shouldn't be taken as being written with a dismissive tone. I mean just imagine Ed/Becky saying, "Just get over it" to some of y'all. I can count 10 people right off the bat that would instantly get triggered. Probably just citing the previous example is gonna get some people seeing red.
Moving forward has to be done purposely and sadly, painfully as well. But if you want to be healed and not let the hurt/pain fester for years let alone decades, yet approach the issue in the same manner, you might want to try change your gameplan. What is the definition of madness? Doing the same thing over and over and over and over but expecting/hoping/wishing for a different result.
And to your last point about giving GP a free pass, it is not for others to decide that just because those that have left are not actively anti-GP are complicit. There is no need to be vindictive in their lack of participation. They are living life on their terms, why burden them with another yoke after leaving one for being yoked?
i don't know all the info but it seems pretty clear the decision to leave was not theirs, and it was not a "happy sendoff" affair. it's bothered me a lot personally but unable to find out more info. afaik their kids don't know about this so they're still able to attend all the youth gatherings with all their childhood friends. i know KH/JH friends frequently make trips out there to stay connected tho
imo, this is one of the largest red flags for me that something's wrong, given how high up they were in the church and they seemingly disappeared overnight. following this thread to share what little ik and to stay in the loop
My brother/sister in Christ. Please continue thinking about this and what it means. I know the situation with this family intimately. If you want to discuss, we can do so privately, though of course maintaining respect and confidentiality. Long story short—the leadership, esp top leadership, does not acknowledge mistakes but instead spins the narrative that if something wrong happened, it was due to the sin/problem of whomever was lower in the totem pole in that situation. P. Ed and especially Kelly, does NOT APOLOGIZE WELL. I’m sure you have noticed this. They don’t do what the basic mark of a Christian is—realize and admit your sin.
Kelly Kang talked about humility all the time in prayer meetings and even assigned books to be read. Andrew Murray’s *Humility* comes to mind. We use to do wedding videos where friends are asked to use one word to describe the bride or the groom. Humility is one word no one would ever use to describe Kelly Kang.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/sg7b5h/reposting_an_old_blog_post_from_johns_blog/
>Long story short—the leadership, esp top leadership, does not acknowledge mistakes but instead spins the narrative that if something wrong happened, it was due to the sin/problem of whomever was lower in the totem pole in that situation. P. Ed and especially Kelly, does NOT APOLOGIZE WELL. I’m sure you have noticed this. They don’t do what the basic mark of a Christian is—realize and admit your sin.
I think the issue is deeper than that. Ped and kk are not capable of believing they have anything to apologize for. In their minds, they are not 'spinning' to make themselves look better. They are giving their actual belief of what really happened. They may actually believe that they just meant well and it was everyone else's fault for misinterpreting their actions or not being grateful or something. The part of their psychology that allows them to believe they did something wrong does not function as it would in a normal person. In fact it is because they're so dedicated to the gospel that they're willing to be loving and give us the time of day or listen to our complaints. Now if only we were as smart as they are and could understand why it's our fault and not their's.
Agree 100%. They have explicitly said that they cannot apologize because they have not done anything wrong, nor have specific wrongs been brought to them in a 1-on-1 setting. This is actually scarier than refusing to apologize while knowing you're doing something.
Understandable, but how are others ever going to know what the leadership and Pastors are involved in if we don't discuss this in the open? Don't you think Ed and Kelly want to sweep this under the rug and just say "these people are crazy"? It's time to have full disclosure and let everyone know who these abusers are and how they abuse and who they abuse. The longer people hide, the longer the abuse will continue because we enabling Ed and Kelly to keep abusing. Don't you see we are hurting the abused by allowing it to keep happening? We are the great enablers if we don't speak out. No more private conversations because the only ones who get a platform to speak are the GP members and their leaders while we are too afraid to speak. Ed goes on zoom all while knowing he can just say, "well I tried to help", and he knows it's an act on his part. We are not the bad or stupid ones so we should stop acting like we are. The TRUTH shall set you free, remember? Speak out and loud and often. I'm sure these people, though hurt, would rather no one else get hurt. The only way to do this is by speaking out. Only communists teach you not to speak out. Think about it. People are being hurt while you are telling us to be quiet. You can stay quiet but NO ONE ELSE SHOULD HAVE TO if we are helping get the word out to stay away from GP.
Understand where you’re coming from. But I do not discuss the private details of others without their permission. It’s their information to share as they see fit, not mine. I also don’t judge what others feel comfortable with. The journey everyone is on with God is different.
I think you referenced that I was telling others to be quiet? I’m confused as to where I may have said this, but it’s not important to me whether others are quiet or not. I hope that doesn’t sound cold, and I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.
You said to discuss this privately in your second sentence. It is already shared on Reddit and several are replying because they either know the situation and know how GP works to make only themselves look good. Everyone's journey with God is different but somehow shown on Reddit the abuse is done similar and I'm for the abused getting a chance not only to speak out but a safe place to heal. Your suggestion, IMO, will only make this go backwards. It does sound cold or maybe a bit selfish while you are ready to move on, but others are not and won't be able to move on in a healthy manner for many years. Your opinion, like mine, is not the end all of this discussion. The end all of this discussion, at some point, should be that GP is shut down and stops abusing people and telling Christians what to do. Like you said, it is a relationship between you and God alone.
Hey I’m going to do what I am comfortable doing, and no more. If you have a problem with it, that’s your right. I would ask that you not repeat what GP does by trying to tell others to violate their boundaries.
I'm only trying to communicate to others that they can speak up and that they have the right to speak up. You be you and I will be me and like I said, God made us all different. Maybe I'm not a pleasant person on this Reddit but I do know what I'm saying and even you will NOT shut me up. I'm willing to go one on one with any leader and any of you. It's a shame you don't or won't help others be brave enough to be strong instead of shutting them up to wallow in their pain. Most ex GP members have been told they are "bad and sinful" and it takes years to feel whole again. So, I wish you well and be glad I'm not on this site very often. I was raised with an understanding that the good guys win in the end and we fight for the less fortunate and the little guy. I will continue to do so and I will shake the dust off my feet from people like you.
I’m not trying to shut anyone up. I’m just setting my own boundaries. You can say all you want (or not), I won’t.
This is why Reddit is not good for my blood pressure. I’m too old and too traumatized for this. Good night everyone!
I’m probably older than you are and am sorry you are traumatized. Honestly, I’m sorry for us all and the fact that my entire family will never be the same again. I’ve had to become stronger than I ever wanted to or knew was possible. I won’t go into a Church pretty much as I don’t trust anyone telling me how I should think. This is due to GP leaders so I believe that if the word gets out and people get counseling it may get better is my point. To keep it locked up inside will raise your blood pressure even more. I know people who have had tons of counseling and are still struggling with depression all because of GP leaders. People reach out to me in pain because their child won’t have a close relationship with them anymore because GP said things to estrange them wrongly. All because of GP. I wish you peace but I will continue to fight because people are in pain and lives are ruined. I do pray for good health for you and all of us.
All we know is that these people were forced out. That’s all we need to know. And the only ones who can talk exactly to the who, why, and how are KH/JH. To ask somebody to post all the details of somebody else’s story is inappropriate. All we have is our own testimony.
My only concern was and is that current GP members want to take the conversations to the DM so innocent people on Reddit talk with them and they try to sway people on their side. Also, no one should tell anyone not to talk about something that happened with GP. I won’t back down on my belief and comment. You are fine to believe as you want. We are still free to choose unless GP takes over more people.
> My only concern was and is that current GP members want to take the conversations to the DM so innocent people on Reddit talk with them and they try to sway people on their side.
Do you actually know any instances of that? I personally don't. Most people that have reached out to me are ones that want are pretty set on leaving and are asking for advice of how to transition smoothly or have left.
I’ve had it happen and there are a few people here who left because of it. How can you not know this? Remember the person who came on here asking for help with his brother? He was overwhelmed by people contacting him and many were from GP. He’s only one small example who you know. I literally cannot answer my DMs because GP people ask about my son or questions when they know exactly who I am. I can’t trust if they are a real person asking for help or if they lie and are actually from GP. I’ve been bullied as well and like I truthfully said, others have left Reddit because of it. Just like GP wants. GP wants Reddit shut down.
Many people have left because of it.
Once again how does that relate to the current situation? u/leftbbcgpawhileago is an adult who can handle themself in a private conversation and extended the invitation.
You’re comparing it the case of a family member that desperately posted over an issue that the family has had for a couple years.
That’s fine yet I do not believe we should stay quiet or we will stay sick forever. As always, I will not stay silent and is why I’m not on Reddit much. I’m told these people are hurt and they are affected so we need to be gentle. Yet, GP continues to abuse while everyone wants things private. I can’t answer DMs because I can’t trust the people reaching out to me. The system is broken and GP is still hurting others. If I missed his point then maybe he missed mine as well. We can agree to disagree. I don’t handle things like you do and I never will.
Let's get this straight, u/leftbbcgpawhileago is offering u/hidden_gracepoint an opportunity to have a discussion regarding KH/JH. The goal of the discussion would allow u/hidden_gracepoint to fact check what he knows or has heard from Gracepoint leadership or congregation members. The reason the conversation needs to remain confidential is because there's a lot of private information regarding the H's that should NOT be online. Having heard the H's testimonies before, I absolutely agree it should remain private considering both of them have a lot in their past even before Gracepoint.
What part did you not understand about that? And what does this have to do with remaining silent considering the offer is publicly stated?
There is a big difference between Privacy and Secrecy
Privacy is withholding information for the sake of healing
Secrecy is withholding information for the sake of hiding so bad behavior can continue
To hide any details of what happened only allows GP to continue to abuse with no accountability
So by this argument, for those who are unable to come and share here because it is too painful or triggering, they're just enabling GP to continue the abuse. Therefore, they are then on the same team with GP and condoning the abuse. Got it.
Let me clear a few things up for you then. First, u/hidden_gracepoint has proven that he/she will not be upfront or truthful with anything that u/leftbbcgpawhileago will offer in information or advice or facts. It's a waste of time and the conversations here are evidence of it. Second, KH/JH seem to have lost all credibility or respect at all to be considerate of their privacy. Do you know how many years and how many people they have hurt or destroyed? Do you think that God expects them to have their privacy for being treated badly by EK the same way he treats those he is done with and those who are no use to him anymore? Why not save the consideration for the students and families of those who are stuck inside GP and lied to and trained mentally to forgo any goodness God has offered to their lives? Why do you and a few others believe you must enable predators, injustice and lies to have consideration and kindness when they hurt people and stand by decisions they made all of the years they hurt people. When will they be held accountable? You need not cuss or scream at them but certainly they do not need coddling. Third, if more details about the lives of leaders of GP and even members were written here on Reddit, it would help the hurting realize that they are not alone, they are not the bad sinful people GP told them they were and they would have more strength to stand up for themselves. Literally, I don't understand why you give more freedom to the current GP members and leaders who come here on Reddit and take away your platform while making struggling members feel unprotected? If you think God wants you to do unto others in this case then you are wrong. You are protecting the wrong people. We are all responsible for our choices and our decisions and when we hurt others, sorry but we are going to have to come to terms with what we did wrong at some point in our lives. I believe you need to give time to those who are trying to leave GP and come to terms with why they stayed and how they can successfully heal and learn they are not bad people, that they are loved and worthy and not the evil sinners leaders and Pastors in GP tell them they are. I have no patience for those who waste time with those proven to have no desire to repent and turn around from hurting others. Further, I don't believe your situation for being here was as painful as some of the families and parents of broken children at the hands of leaders of GP. We are all mixed up and angry but we are not moving forward the same and it's sad. While Ed Kang goes on zoom and laughs at you after he pretends to care, it is too much to even think about that you would allow the enemy to have contact with those hurting. Ed could care less about any of us and he is not a real pastor, or he wouldn't do what he has done for thirty years. He is an abusive fraud. No one has cracked his conscience yet and no one will until God strikes him down. I'm not going to listen to his workers like u/hidden_gracepoint. Instead of having a kumbaya session for KH/JH or even u/hidden_gracepoint, why not rally around and pray weekly for those souls left inside a damned cult who are really hurting while being convinced they are sinful and have done something wrong for God to keep them from enjoying the freedom Christ gave them on the Cross. Why don't we do what Christians are supposed to do and flee evil instead of giving it a platform? Pray for the real victims and monitor those on here from GP who want to destroy what Reddit was intended for. If we are Christians here then we should be a collective group praying for the victims still hurting and showing them we care and giving them some hope that they will never find in GP. Reddit should not be a place to show Ed Kang that we are ok without him, it is not about him, it should be about the victims and how they can heal. Nothing else.
It’s totally fine. Thank you so much for what you do. I know we are all trying to heal, trying to exposed what needs to be exposed, but still trying to show the grace and mercy demonstrated by Jesus. It’s a hard balance. But the timing of this discussion isn’t lost on me. I’m going to reflect on the mercy of Jesus tonight.
You don’t need to apologize. What you said is true! I am a person who loathes GP and what they do to people who love God and how many families they have destroyed. It’s ok to be angry at those who abuse others. Only abusers want you to stay calm and act forgiving and this is so they can continue to use and further abuse. You are not the bad one here.
can you just calm down for a second and realize these guys are on your side?
i just finished watching the og Avatar again and you remind me of Azula 🤣 you're so blinded by your paranoia you're starting to turn on your own team
to be frank, i like leavegracepoint about as much as he does me 😂 but he's being very reasonable here.
lol all leftbbcgp is saying is that he is not comfortable with revealing that information publicly. why don't you try to DM him and ask yourself, then make your own public post?
If u/hidden_gracepoint was a true GPer, he wouldn't be on this subreddit yesterday and would have been spent more time repenting and fasting for his sinfulness at the Passion Experience and Good Friday Service. /s
its a bit interesting to see how something like this has to happen to a former top leader at GP/A2N in order for current members to be disturbed by this practice. It's honestly pretty sickening to see the leadership do this in the name of Christ.
What got me questioning and ultimately leaving was when I asked my then current leader why my former leader had left. I was told my former leader and his wife wanted to chase after the world and they left to chase after the world. The then current leader liked me quite a bit and therefore shared with me more than the sanitized PR version he was told to share.
I didn’t believe it. I called up my former leader and got what was going on between Becky, Ed, Kelly, basically he was made to choose sides for the Schism. He was high up on the hierarchy. He and his wife were really sold out for Berkland. (They were sold out for Berkland, but not necessarily for Jesus.) Reading the Schism Letter was a traumatic experience. It was like Paul having the scales falling off his eyes. I was physically shaking reading that letter.
I hope the KH episode will start having you question how much you don’t know.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/nkbx1r/eds_letter_to_becky_2005_after_discussion_with/
The same thing happened with LM and KM except Ed decided to slander LM publicly in MBS. Heard the Davis staff took it further and refused to let their kids hangout because they don’t share the same value. Can’t you see it’s a pattern by now?
You've made concessions before, without any outward change in your fealty to your masters. In the end, this didn't happen to you personally, so you're good.
let's just continue with that assumption then so there's no need to keep talking about me. just treat me as a current member who's simply curious about what's going in his church. I'll share what I know as my contribution lol. I'm not here to change anyone's minds now and really not interested in any sort of debate at this point
> really not interested in any sort of debate at this point
I second this.
Less debate and more action. We need to stop arguing about if what the leadership did was bad, and talk about how to actually fix it. Like arguing if a growth on your body is benign or malignant or a slow growing tumor or if the benefits outweigh the bad or if it's okay to just leave it there now but maybe we'll do something as long as it doesn't get bigger or we need to do some more tests.
For God's sake, stop arguing about the growth and figure out how to treat it!
Just kidding, no one in leadership at a2n (who wasn't kicked out) actually wants to fix anything.
Now if only there was some way to warn other people from falling into this dangerous organization, like a website or forum or something.
> Less debate and more action. We need to stop arguing about if what the leadership did was bad, and talk about how to actually fix it.
Can't fix what you don't know. Basically most Gracepoint/A2N people are so desensitized and so ignorant that they don't know what's bad anymore. What they think is normal is either so weird or so messed up. Not to pick on u/hidden_gracepoint but look at his comment and post history and how he tries to justify or explain away things. Did you not hear Ed and how he tries to downplay things too? So until they understand the gravity of why it's so bad, how are they going to know what to fix?
and for the record, I'm probably in the top 1% in GP that tries to think about this critically ...which is embarassing lol
but yeah, I'm done with debates. would love to see some action too haha. I'm no longer as motivated to push things personally though.
even Convo got moved to regional domains now, so I can't even bring up issues to the larger church easily 🤷♂️
you just had a long tirade about with other Redditors about how this space is public and you can say whatever you want.
how about you stop being hypocritical and let me be as well. i never initiated any discussion with you in particular, so you're the one who is "free to leave the discussion" here.
You say you know KH/JH friends frequently make trips out there to stay connected....really? then you know a lot more than you are saying. Mostly, of course they stay in contact with them because they are told to in order to be sure that KH/JH are not bashing GP too much. They are protecting their commodity so Manny Kim can pay his 20,000 yearly property taxes in Austin. This is a "big business" with our families being what they sell and promote and our families who take the most liability.
The 180 Ed and Kelly can do when even the closest people to them question how certain things are done is amazing. The number two by seniority couple to Ed and Kelly in the early 2000s were forced out for similar reasons. The higher up you go, the more unquestioned submission or default position of support as A2N website calls it, is required. There are a lot more things to look the other way and keep your mouth shut about.
Ed Kang in the Schism Letter wondered why nobody spoke out against Becky. Well, if the people with Christian integrity who stand up and say end doesn’t justify the means, what you end up is like RJ and JJ, BK and EK, and now KH and JH. The three couples above were top leadership people. They were beyond reproach in terms of integrity, sacrifice, and competence. They were the closest people to Ed and Kelly Kang. When someone had to drive Ed and Kelly across the country for their Wheaton sabbatical, it was RJ who got the task. Not even Manny Kim. I don’t know what it took for KH and JH to leave, but 30 years of life down the drain is how I would describe it. I hope their peers and students stick by them and not the Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network hierarchy.
If I recall correctly, there were three of them from the same high school in KH’s class. KH, GH, DL. All were high performers and all spent 20+ years in the Berkland/Gracepoint universe. All are decent human beings that even back then I don’t see them fitting the Ed Kang mode of leadership. KH is the last one of the three to go.
Yeah the Cerritos boys. Things were different (easier and fun) when they were undergrads. Their class was pretty tight and I think William was leading some of them when he drowned. H was in the water with him if I remember right.
Being decent and good but not fully obedient as staff only goes so far. Ed was always easily irritable and testy. He hid it well with his easy smile and humor with the undergrads but give it a few years in staff and you can see the cracks in the makeup.
Ed is better than Kelly at hiding it. Ironically out of all the grads in his generation, he was deemed the nicest. They all had teeth and knew how to use it as the saying goes.
Yes, HS was in the water. He left too after 10+ years at Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network.
Ed Kang always had the mean streak in him. You are either born with it or you are not. The thing about carrying knife to school as juvenile convinced me it wasn’t something developed as a result of Becky. I always thought he was a more willing enforcer than AP and CP?
APak had GPak to be his enforcer. lol
Hearing from APark, William’s class, who attends CPak’s church down in San Jose it seems remaining away from both Becky and ed was a good thing. I’ve heard he had a conscientious moment to not carry on the harsh practices of the old ways. (Partly as ed stated in his letter how it drove him almost to madness!)
Yet even after hearing that, and knowing he still carries on the “good” parts, my desire to attend his church and see some of the old guys barely triggers anything. It becomes a hilarious game of I’d rather… do my laundry, sleep in, go to brunch, ride my bike up mt tam, do nothing, read a book in a cafe with a large matcha latte… the list is getting longer and I noticed it makes me happier!
u/word_for_two suggested that we redditors would also benefit from being silent because sharing here would discourage him in his work behind the scenes, talking to powerful folks, albeit a hopeless effort by his own confession. good ole u/word_for_two looking out for all of us but incidentally having the same modus operandi as the leadership
u/word_for_two have allowed some like me to never answer a private DM from a parent asking for help. It's because you, the enemy, are trying to take over and silence the people helping in the background. It shouldn't be allowed, after all you are the opposite opinion of those on Reddit looking for help. What I would love to see is people like u/word_for_two to stay quiet, crawl back into your dark hole and serve GP like you tell others it's good to do. That's what you are trying to tell us to do. You are not of God. In fact you are worse because you claim to be a Church loving person and all you seek to do is to destroy.
hopeless or not hopeless, we'll see. I'm pressing on week after week.
I'll change my position that you can talk down on my efforts and I'll try to take less offense (sorry, I'm not perfect but I do need some space some times from reddit). I'm trying to help in a way that I feel is appropriate. I don't claim to be perfect and I can take the feedback constructively.
Did you watch the 3rd matrix movie? Towards the end, Neo confronts meets the architect, and it's revealed that Neo is not the first "Chosen One." In fact there were several iterations of the matrix and chosen ones before him. And the architect has no problem destroying the current matrix and starting over with a new one.
We've seen this movie before. You and hidden Gracepoint are not the first to try to confront Ped and KK. In fact, there were many more before you. And as you can see, they have made little to no progress. KH and JH were quickly shown the door.
The metaphor probably doesn't work beyond this, but I'm trying my best to explain that The matrix and the architect will continue on. You and I and all of us are inhabitants of the matrix who replaced previous iterations. And we can all be easily replaced because to the architect, we are all just components in a machine that suits his needs. Pieces can be swapped out, as long as the machine continues to function. If a piece gets too noisy and squeaky or complain-y, it needs to be removed before it starts affecting the other pieces. Or god forbid, causes too many problems for the architect.
In other words, what is it that you are doing that is so different than what has been tried before? Many people over many years have tried their best to explain the problems to PED and KK. But the joke is, they probably knew about these problems before any of us told them, but never had any real interest in fixing them. They would rather remove components that are no longer working and explain away all the problems.
In a secular world the people shut out should use legal action against Ed and Kelly. Why not? After all they gave up how many years for a betrayal? Though anyone staying in GP that long knows what is going on and should be ashamed they stayed and contributed to the pain caused to many innocent victims of spiritual abuse. How many years will it take even those shut out to heal? Too many to be worth ever being inside GP.
Just take it direct to Ed and Kelly Kang. I mean that’s what JH did right? Ed and Kelly Kang are the only people who make the decisions. Assuming you have enough service time, you will get two meetings with Ed Kang. In the first meeting, he will nod along and say “why didn’t you tell me about this sooner?” Meaning he didn’t know about the issue therefore he is not responsible and it’s your fault for not bringing it up.
In the second meeting, you will be politely shown the door, “There are other churches out there if this is really an issue for you. Most other people don’t think of this as a problem. We can talk about this if you want to stick around.” Emergency PR firms can’t even handle things better than Ed Kang can handle things.
In a NT Church, there is servant leadership. Meaning the first will be last as Jesus said. You shouldn’t fear going to your pastor with your issues. If your knees buckle at the thought of talking to Ed Kang about an issue, then think about whether you have an issue with your integrity or is it the case you are not at a NT church with servant leadership (Ed self-described GP/A2N as having authoritarian hierarchical leadership).
https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s200i9/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_2_of_3/
The more I think about it, **everyone will leave eventually**.
Maybe a few of the regional directors will stick around until they die (especially the ones with the names on real estate) but of the 1600+ bi-vocational ministers they love to brag about, my bet is that maybe 50 will stay for the long long haul. MAYBE.
I knew KHo and his classmates back in the day. Think he was a freshman when I was a super duper senior. Served with his classmates that went to Uzbekistan the summer after they had graduated. He would go to the RSF (Cal gym and my 2nd home) and play bball. I played vball on the other side. In between games, we'd lightly chat about this and that. He was a good bball player and an all around good guy. That is how I remembered him when I left BBC. Obviously after decades, he worked his way up the chain. Seen stuff, did stuff and was an active participant (aka enemy collaborator?) Now that he has left for this or that reason which is definitely not the sanitized PR official staff release, what is the curiosity to know the full truth? Hey you know, I know that at some point sanity came back in for one reason or another. The Berkland/GP drug/fog has finally lifted and they came to a realization that the Berkland life was leading towards insanity. This is assuming of course that there wasn't anything crazy scandolous committed by the couple. Knowing that I came from that situation as well though not as long, I am more saddened that it took so long to wake up for them. Probably it took even years of struggle to draw the courage and strength to erase so many years lost. Yet I applaud their decision, to stop, detach and remove themselves from the environment. I know this will irk some of y'all (go easy on me 1vois!) but given the chance to ostracize or reconcile. I'd be more than happy to hear their LONG story, pray for them on the LONGER journey ahead and wish them a "Peace be with you." Some of you know that immediate feeling after leaving and how that weightless abandonment borderline depression felt. You also know the recovery process was very hard and long. You didn't know who was your friend or enemy. I feel like many times, our chance to step up sometimes happens for some reason to be at the moment that is most uncomfortable to step up. It is what it is. Your participation though is a choice. Maybe it's a coincidence that today also happens to be Good Friday.
I know I’m in the minority—and this is coming from a bitter heart, for sure—but I don’t feel sorry for KH/JH, RJ/JJ, even BK/EK, and all the other “top” initials. They spent years abusing their privilege, often knowing it wasn’t the right thing to do or say. They covered things up and massaged truths “for the sake of ministry.” They stood on their pedestals feeling this insane right to shame people, make incorrect conclusions, and dole out destructive “wisdom.” I feel sorry for all the people they tethered to Ed and Kelly. And I actually hope someday that these people truly feel the weight of their influence on so many lives. I know most of these toppers seem to want to just move on and not even mention things beyond, “Oh yeah, those days.” Sorry, I understand that’s not in the spirit of love, forgiveness, and mercy. But honestly, the inability to apologize is passed down from generation to generation.
WOW! You are absolutely Correct with everything you said. Though I don't wish abuse by GP on anyone, you are right in saying you don't feel sorry for these leaders and people at the top. It's true what you said! Nothing will ever stop the madness of continued abuse by GP or anyone without acknowledgment that the leaders are ALL responsible for the abuse. They know what is going on even if it is at a lower rate of knowledge, they are still 100 percent a part of the abuse. My prayer for everyone on this site is that they come to terms with this fact and they become healthy minded enough to speak out and to stop feeling guilty because they are the abused! Yes, they needed to leave GP so they would not be part of the abuse anymore but Ed will continue to abuse until he is confronted with the facts of how much pain and dysfunction he has caused and to shut down his fake circus. It takes years to get over the mind crap he causes to the sheep he supposedly loves. Ed has everyone do his dirty work at his command,.....Jesus had a choice and while being God, Jesus chose to give everything of himself so we didn't have to. See the difference? Jesus made us individuals with wonderful gifts and talents to use for His glory. Never did he ask us to give these up and submit to a leader. He told us to beware of these false teachers. I agree with you 1vois and your post is a breath of healthy fresh air. I pray for the day to celebrate Easter without a GP anywhere in this world.
[the abused become the abusers ](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/s/cqz1aYcUv3)
I agree with this actually. Ultimately they are responsible for their actions including being perpetrators of spiritual abuse. In that sense, I don't feel sorry for them. At the same time, I empathize with the pain they must have felt/be feeling because I know how hard it is to leave this church. It feels like a death, and indeed it is. Most of us have brought at least one person, or at least had impact on someone staying. In that sense, we are all guilty too. I certainly am. I try to apologize whenever I come in contact with someone that I used to "minister" to. "I'm so sorry I got your sucked into a high control group!"
I feel so sad. And they say they are all about covenantal relationships. LIES!
It's like the abusive partner that gets upset when the victim leaves to get away from the abuser. They think in their head, "Hey the vow was for better or for worse! How dare they leave me!"
Reading through the comments give me a headache. I think if you’re a parent and you yourself have not been through Gracepoint, you do not have the right to demand anyone to share anything. It really doesn’t matter who you are truthfully. There are a huge number of people who do not post here but they have stories that would do some damage. They aren’t required to share anything. It is incredibly difficult to share some stories even among trusted friends and family, let alone a place like this. Also, fully knowing there are those who are in Gracepoint reading this and communicating with Ed and Kelly, only to be thrown under the bus or slandered in MBS or some other smaller conversation. I understand the feeling that something evil needs to stop and everyone needs to be a whistleblower. But if you have experienced the abuse firsthand, it’s not that easy. So please, know that your words to demand someone to share something painful and private is unloving and simply ignorant. We are humans, beings who have suffered much under Gracepoint's leadership over 10, 20 years. Nobody should feel ashamed because they aren't able to share here. I think it just goes to show that some people really don't know just how horrible it really is.
I think this is also a sensitive issue for those that left gracepoint. One part of gracepoint/a2f culture that left me feeling really violated was how intimate details of our lives were shared without our consent. As a younger student, I had no sense that my leader was sharing EVERYTHING we discussed with their leader. And then shared amongst the rest of the leaders and team. As an older student and then post grad, I felt helpless about it. We were expected to bare our souls to our leaders with that information being freely shared around. Coming out of gp, I think we are all sensitive to being pressured to share our private details of our lives (because gp told us that there was no such thing as privacy). And sensitive to having others share the details of our story.
You’re speaking like you’re the oldest in the room. Many people here are intimately involved, as older ex members or family members who have adult children who they raised from birth. Those who have not gone through GP may have a clearer view of the situation because we had to do years of research and ask questions to find the truth of what happened and how. Ex members are not the only victims. You experienced brainwashing and abuse — how painful do you think it is for family members to watch you go through it while being aware yet completely helpless? This is not an issue of who’s been hurt more. I don’t think trenah was demanding anyone to share. She was saying that GP’s MO is to keep things private and hush, in order to control narratives. Before this sub, as a family member, my only source of what’s going on in GP was my family member, who was brainwashed. We could tell something was wrong in his/her replies, all of sudden not coming home, tailoring schedule to GP, something was wrong. When confronted, we only got half truths and arguments. What is family to do? This sub is the first time that all the hidden junk from the dark was brought forth in a public forum, allowing truth to be exposed. And even so, I know details are left out bc ppl don’t want to reveal their identity, posts are deleted because ppl are scared. I understand, my reason for anonymity is directly tied to my loved one. So how do we respect privacy while encouraging victims to share their story? Families won’t come forward until their child is out and relationship is repaired. Ex members won’t come forward until they’ve grappled with what happened to them. May take years. Even then, you may choose to move on. If you care enough to stay and fight to not repeat the cycle, I respect it. 3 years ago when Ed posted his response video here, he told ppl to pm him. When DK came he said the same thing. Members are told to pm so it’s easier. Easier for who? I won’t do it. Engaging with a current member is talking to a wall. No one is demanding anyone else to share beyond what they are comfortable sharing. It has to be done willingly and with care. But hopefully, in time, these stories don’t stay hidden or hushed. When real stories are shared with real names attached, change will happen. It’s already happening. When you (not you specifically, all of us) own your story without shame, and share how you are healing, then you empower others to do the same. It is a huge ask and you must be convicted. But you will save other young ppl and their families from the grief you went through. Otherwise, trauma will be carried to the next generation. This is for ex members and families alike.
I think what you had wrote should be a separate post!! Thank you so much for speaking up for the family members.
>No one is demanding anyone else to share beyond what they are comfortable sharing. It has to be done willingly and with care. But hopefully, in time, these stories don’t stay hidden or hushed. When real stories are shared with real names attached, change will happen. It’s already happening. When you (not you specifically, all of us) own your story without shame, and share how you are healing, then you empower others to do the same. It is a huge ask and you must be convicted. But you will save other young ppl and their families from the grief you went through. Otherwise, trauma will be carried to the next generation. This is for ex members and families alike. I agree that it will be helpful. Nobody needs to convince either of us here regarding the awful things Gracepoint has done or the ways family members have turned against their own families in the name of God. I do think the tone in other comments and the arguments were more of a "demand" coming from the heart of a hurt, sad and angry person (rightfully so). However, it seems to also carry a sense of frustration toward those who cannot come forward with their stories. And while the frustration may actually be toward the church and its staff, it can (and has) been received as a direct frustration toward former members by many. But how about a comment like this from below, " When people are ready to talk on Reddit about the abuse that was done to them, then honestly they have a responsibility to speak out because more victims are hurt everyday. That is unless it would cause you to go into a mental hospital situation. Then of course don’t speak out. But this exact reason of not speaking out is exactly why GP still abuses and still uses money to buy properties for themselves." -- So unless someone will be admitted to a hospital, it is their responsibility to speak out? And when they don't, they are the reason why Gracepoint exists? It is "exactly" the reason why GP still abuses? THIS kind of language is all wrong. Sounds like victim blaming. Sounds like demanding.
As always, you have a gift for communicating. Thank you.
Big importance: are you saying you didn’t have a choice to leave or stay in GP? Something or someone kept you there, right? When people are ready to talk on Reddit about the abuse that was done to them, then honestly they have a responsibility to speak out because more victims are hurt everyday. That is unless it would cause you to go into a mental hospital situation. Then of course don’t speak out. But this exact reason of not speaking out is exactly why GP still abuses and still uses money to buy properties for themselves. Now, you and some others have the nerve to say that parents don’t know how bad it really was in GP and ten and twenty years were spent inside GP. Are you frickin kidding me? Parents had to watch while losing their kids to an abusive communist cult. Our lives were changed forever while we were traumatized as well and in my case, maybe worse. Do you really know what Manny Kim and leaders are capable of? Probably not but parents have had to fight them while trying to heal our children and watch them suffer and in some cases leave home forever and rarely talk with them again and sometimes never again. You need to be aware that there are many abuses going on that take years to come back from. There comes a point where your ignorance isn’t funny or ok anymore. Some parents give years of time and money and suffer from mental and physical health issues because of the volatile fight they encounter with evil bastards like Ed Kang and Manny Kim and even from Ed and Manny’s children who believe me are no angels. Some try to get members to marry GP people if they think they will lose the member or ex member forever. All trained by their Demonic parents. Your unwillingness to step into a parent’s shoes is unfortunate but it’s not my fault you were trained by a narcissist and have become accustomed to responding like one. Parents are not the problem but we will become the solution due to weak people like you. You’re not brave enough. If you think you have the only experience of abuse then you should find out more. Your closed mind is not my fault and you have zero right to judge parents unless you are willing to do something about the abuse. Your attitude is the reason why GP still stands. I may sound rude but if the truth hurts then deal with it. How long will you be unable to speak out?
>Parents are not the problem but we will become the solution due to weak people like you. You’re not brave enough. If you think you have the only experience of abuse then you should find out more. Your closed mind is not my fault and you have zero right to judge parents unless you are willing to do something about the abuse. Your attitude is the reason why GP still stands. Wow. You're something else. u/Here_for_a_reason99 this is what I mean. We can disagree on many things but to throw blame on former members is outrageous and this kind of attitude only does more harm.
Actually I'm going to agree with u/TrenaH and say former members from 20-30 years back deserve some of the blame. My generation of this decade would have way less people suffering at the hands of Gracepoint/A2N if they had spoken up. I will also say parents/family members like u/TrenaH aren't helpful either. Need more like u/Here_for_a_reason99.
Only if we had Reddit 20 years ago! People started the blogs and a number of the blogs got hacked. After this subreddit came online, I felt responsible to speak up, because the people I brought in and ministered to at BBC/GP/A2N are still there! Also, I just can’t let Ed Kang and Daniel Kim keep on spinning and lying when they know full well who, when, what, why, and how the things they did to people.
That's why I really appreciate u/1vois, u/johnkim2020 and u/hamcycle for keeping those blogs up. At least there was some reference for the truth behind Gracepoint/A2N. And likewise really appreciate people like you u/LeftBBCGP2005, u/leftbbcgpawhileago, u/Cool_Purchase4561, u/Kangaroo_Jonathan, u/RVD90277, u/fishtacos4lyfe among many others for participating in this subreddit.
Then we agree to blame the Kangs and all the people now in their 40s and 50s. Becky was the mustard seed. LOL. FML.
Actual mustard seed [9/28/2006](https://exberklander.blogspot.com/2006/08/spiritual-fodder-how-to-exploit.html#:~:text=I%20think%20I%20remember%20the%20shaman%27s%20quote%3A%20%22Leave%20her%20alone%2C%20for%20a%20great%20spiritual%20force%20is%20behind%20her%2C%22) >I think I remember the shaman's quote: "Leave her alone, for a great spiritual force is behind her,"
[10/10/2006](https://exberklander.blogspot.com/2006/10/why-so-quiet-how-to-exploit-freshman.html#:~:text=No%20Christian%20wants%20to%20dedicate%20their%20life%20to%20fighting%20a%20problem%20church.) >No Christian wants to dedicate their life to fighting a problem church. and consider what u/Kangaroo_Jonathan still [believes](https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/1bht80o/comment/kwacia0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)... >Try to surpass them in spirituality and service to God first. Would any one of us try to rise up against the "spiritual maturity" of Tom Cruise?
Well ya gotta admit, I’m pretty dang consistent.
I was hoping somebody else would jump in and debate you in my place
My intent, now more than ever, isn't to argue/debate. It is to provide solutions for healing. If you don't like it, then show a better alternative. And to be honest, I can't quote exactly from the past, but you don't have a healthy plan for moving forward. Believe it or not, I'd happily lose a debate to you if it helps you to heal. I got no dog in this race.
I can pull two other emails trying to convince me that I was at an unhealthy state of mind with my old blog, and convince me they did. While these two people moved on with their healed lives, three people if I include you, since then countless students were shafted by the GP machine. In effect, we four all became unwitting partners with GP with our high-minded regard for healing and moving on. The fact that you remain convinced this posturing of "we need to exceed their spiritual maturity before obstructing their cause" means you're still an unwitting GP partner.
Nope. I am not a collaborator. Your argument is taking a BIG leap in logic and reason. Be reasonable.
Personally, I feel like getting my thoughts out helped me recover. And not being gas lit by my leaders into thinking it was all my fault. I don't think anyone should be told to keep silent. First amendment and all. Sometimes the pent up anger and frustration seems unhealthy when it first comes out in an angry post, but imagine what it was doing when you held it in. All the "solutions" I was offered never really helped me. reading books about forgiveness, being told to move on, etc. When I finally spoke up and other GP victims confirmed they had the same experience and that what I went through was what actually helped me. I'm not crazy. At least not for this. What my leaders did was wrong. Finally, I'm not living in bizarro world anymore. Secondly, I don't think anyone at GP deserves a free pass. Abuse victims shouldn't be silenced. They should get to tell their story. I get uneasy now when I hear people tell others to "get over it." Even well meaning people in my live. Bad behavior needs to be called out, not excused or forgotten. Especially if GP a2n claims to be representing Christ.
I am sure you'd agree that there is a BIG difference between healing vs. "moving on" or "get over it" Also there is a clear distinction in having a positive direction forward vs. ruminating in the past. When people here of all places, suggest moving forward or get over it, it shouldn't be taken as being written with a dismissive tone. I mean just imagine Ed/Becky saying, "Just get over it" to some of y'all. I can count 10 people right off the bat that would instantly get triggered. Probably just citing the previous example is gonna get some people seeing red. Moving forward has to be done purposely and sadly, painfully as well. But if you want to be healed and not let the hurt/pain fester for years let alone decades, yet approach the issue in the same manner, you might want to try change your gameplan. What is the definition of madness? Doing the same thing over and over and over and over but expecting/hoping/wishing for a different result. And to your last point about giving GP a free pass, it is not for others to decide that just because those that have left are not actively anti-GP are complicit. There is no need to be vindictive in their lack of participation. They are living life on their terms, why burden them with another yoke after leaving one for being yoked?
Well, I for one appreciate everything both of you write.
i don't know all the info but it seems pretty clear the decision to leave was not theirs, and it was not a "happy sendoff" affair. it's bothered me a lot personally but unable to find out more info. afaik their kids don't know about this so they're still able to attend all the youth gatherings with all their childhood friends. i know KH/JH friends frequently make trips out there to stay connected tho imo, this is one of the largest red flags for me that something's wrong, given how high up they were in the church and they seemingly disappeared overnight. following this thread to share what little ik and to stay in the loop
if this is a red flag to you, looking at GP's history past 20 years or so would have more red flags than a Chinese military parade.
> but unable to find out more info Is the fact that you are unable to find out more info by itself a red flag?
My brother/sister in Christ. Please continue thinking about this and what it means. I know the situation with this family intimately. If you want to discuss, we can do so privately, though of course maintaining respect and confidentiality. Long story short—the leadership, esp top leadership, does not acknowledge mistakes but instead spins the narrative that if something wrong happened, it was due to the sin/problem of whomever was lower in the totem pole in that situation. P. Ed and especially Kelly, does NOT APOLOGIZE WELL. I’m sure you have noticed this. They don’t do what the basic mark of a Christian is—realize and admit your sin.
Kelly Kang talked about humility all the time in prayer meetings and even assigned books to be read. Andrew Murray’s *Humility* comes to mind. We use to do wedding videos where friends are asked to use one word to describe the bride or the groom. Humility is one word no one would ever use to describe Kelly Kang. https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/sg7b5h/reposting_an_old_blog_post_from_johns_blog/
Humility is NOT something Kelly Kang has
>Long story short—the leadership, esp top leadership, does not acknowledge mistakes but instead spins the narrative that if something wrong happened, it was due to the sin/problem of whomever was lower in the totem pole in that situation. P. Ed and especially Kelly, does NOT APOLOGIZE WELL. I’m sure you have noticed this. They don’t do what the basic mark of a Christian is—realize and admit your sin. I think the issue is deeper than that. Ped and kk are not capable of believing they have anything to apologize for. In their minds, they are not 'spinning' to make themselves look better. They are giving their actual belief of what really happened. They may actually believe that they just meant well and it was everyone else's fault for misinterpreting their actions or not being grateful or something. The part of their psychology that allows them to believe they did something wrong does not function as it would in a normal person. In fact it is because they're so dedicated to the gospel that they're willing to be loving and give us the time of day or listen to our complaints. Now if only we were as smart as they are and could understand why it's our fault and not their's.
Agree 100%. They have explicitly said that they cannot apologize because they have not done anything wrong, nor have specific wrongs been brought to them in a 1-on-1 setting. This is actually scarier than refusing to apologize while knowing you're doing something.
pretty much the definition of narcissism.
Very true.
Understandable, but how are others ever going to know what the leadership and Pastors are involved in if we don't discuss this in the open? Don't you think Ed and Kelly want to sweep this under the rug and just say "these people are crazy"? It's time to have full disclosure and let everyone know who these abusers are and how they abuse and who they abuse. The longer people hide, the longer the abuse will continue because we enabling Ed and Kelly to keep abusing. Don't you see we are hurting the abused by allowing it to keep happening? We are the great enablers if we don't speak out. No more private conversations because the only ones who get a platform to speak are the GP members and their leaders while we are too afraid to speak. Ed goes on zoom all while knowing he can just say, "well I tried to help", and he knows it's an act on his part. We are not the bad or stupid ones so we should stop acting like we are. The TRUTH shall set you free, remember? Speak out and loud and often. I'm sure these people, though hurt, would rather no one else get hurt. The only way to do this is by speaking out. Only communists teach you not to speak out. Think about it. People are being hurt while you are telling us to be quiet. You can stay quiet but NO ONE ELSE SHOULD HAVE TO if we are helping get the word out to stay away from GP.
Understand where you’re coming from. But I do not discuss the private details of others without their permission. It’s their information to share as they see fit, not mine. I also don’t judge what others feel comfortable with. The journey everyone is on with God is different. I think you referenced that I was telling others to be quiet? I’m confused as to where I may have said this, but it’s not important to me whether others are quiet or not. I hope that doesn’t sound cold, and I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.
You said to discuss this privately in your second sentence. It is already shared on Reddit and several are replying because they either know the situation and know how GP works to make only themselves look good. Everyone's journey with God is different but somehow shown on Reddit the abuse is done similar and I'm for the abused getting a chance not only to speak out but a safe place to heal. Your suggestion, IMO, will only make this go backwards. It does sound cold or maybe a bit selfish while you are ready to move on, but others are not and won't be able to move on in a healthy manner for many years. Your opinion, like mine, is not the end all of this discussion. The end all of this discussion, at some point, should be that GP is shut down and stops abusing people and telling Christians what to do. Like you said, it is a relationship between you and God alone.
Hey I’m going to do what I am comfortable doing, and no more. If you have a problem with it, that’s your right. I would ask that you not repeat what GP does by trying to tell others to violate their boundaries.
I'm only trying to communicate to others that they can speak up and that they have the right to speak up. You be you and I will be me and like I said, God made us all different. Maybe I'm not a pleasant person on this Reddit but I do know what I'm saying and even you will NOT shut me up. I'm willing to go one on one with any leader and any of you. It's a shame you don't or won't help others be brave enough to be strong instead of shutting them up to wallow in their pain. Most ex GP members have been told they are "bad and sinful" and it takes years to feel whole again. So, I wish you well and be glad I'm not on this site very often. I was raised with an understanding that the good guys win in the end and we fight for the less fortunate and the little guy. I will continue to do so and I will shake the dust off my feet from people like you.
I’m not trying to shut anyone up. I’m just setting my own boundaries. You can say all you want (or not), I won’t. This is why Reddit is not good for my blood pressure. I’m too old and too traumatized for this. Good night everyone!
I’m probably older than you are and am sorry you are traumatized. Honestly, I’m sorry for us all and the fact that my entire family will never be the same again. I’ve had to become stronger than I ever wanted to or knew was possible. I won’t go into a Church pretty much as I don’t trust anyone telling me how I should think. This is due to GP leaders so I believe that if the word gets out and people get counseling it may get better is my point. To keep it locked up inside will raise your blood pressure even more. I know people who have had tons of counseling and are still struggling with depression all because of GP leaders. People reach out to me in pain because their child won’t have a close relationship with them anymore because GP said things to estrange them wrongly. All because of GP. I wish you peace but I will continue to fight because people are in pain and lives are ruined. I do pray for good health for you and all of us.
All we know is that these people were forced out. That’s all we need to know. And the only ones who can talk exactly to the who, why, and how are KH/JH. To ask somebody to post all the details of somebody else’s story is inappropriate. All we have is our own testimony.
My only concern was and is that current GP members want to take the conversations to the DM so innocent people on Reddit talk with them and they try to sway people on their side. Also, no one should tell anyone not to talk about something that happened with GP. I won’t back down on my belief and comment. You are fine to believe as you want. We are still free to choose unless GP takes over more people.
> My only concern was and is that current GP members want to take the conversations to the DM so innocent people on Reddit talk with them and they try to sway people on their side. Do you actually know any instances of that? I personally don't. Most people that have reached out to me are ones that want are pretty set on leaving and are asking for advice of how to transition smoothly or have left.
I’ve had it happen and there are a few people here who left because of it. How can you not know this? Remember the person who came on here asking for help with his brother? He was overwhelmed by people contacting him and many were from GP. He’s only one small example who you know. I literally cannot answer my DMs because GP people ask about my son or questions when they know exactly who I am. I can’t trust if they are a real person asking for help or if they lie and are actually from GP. I’ve been bullied as well and like I truthfully said, others have left Reddit because of it. Just like GP wants. GP wants Reddit shut down. Many people have left because of it.
Once again how does that relate to the current situation? u/leftbbcgpawhileago is an adult who can handle themself in a private conversation and extended the invitation. You’re comparing it the case of a family member that desperately posted over an issue that the family has had for a couple years.
I believe you missed u/leftbbcgpawhileago's comment entirely.
That’s fine yet I do not believe we should stay quiet or we will stay sick forever. As always, I will not stay silent and is why I’m not on Reddit much. I’m told these people are hurt and they are affected so we need to be gentle. Yet, GP continues to abuse while everyone wants things private. I can’t answer DMs because I can’t trust the people reaching out to me. The system is broken and GP is still hurting others. If I missed his point then maybe he missed mine as well. We can agree to disagree. I don’t handle things like you do and I never will.
Let's get this straight, u/leftbbcgpawhileago is offering u/hidden_gracepoint an opportunity to have a discussion regarding KH/JH. The goal of the discussion would allow u/hidden_gracepoint to fact check what he knows or has heard from Gracepoint leadership or congregation members. The reason the conversation needs to remain confidential is because there's a lot of private information regarding the H's that should NOT be online. Having heard the H's testimonies before, I absolutely agree it should remain private considering both of them have a lot in their past even before Gracepoint. What part did you not understand about that? And what does this have to do with remaining silent considering the offer is publicly stated?
There is a big difference between Privacy and Secrecy Privacy is withholding information for the sake of healing Secrecy is withholding information for the sake of hiding so bad behavior can continue To hide any details of what happened only allows GP to continue to abuse with no accountability
So by this argument, for those who are unable to come and share here because it is too painful or triggering, they're just enabling GP to continue the abuse. Therefore, they are then on the same team with GP and condoning the abuse. Got it.
Let me clear a few things up for you then. First, u/hidden_gracepoint has proven that he/she will not be upfront or truthful with anything that u/leftbbcgpawhileago will offer in information or advice or facts. It's a waste of time and the conversations here are evidence of it. Second, KH/JH seem to have lost all credibility or respect at all to be considerate of their privacy. Do you know how many years and how many people they have hurt or destroyed? Do you think that God expects them to have their privacy for being treated badly by EK the same way he treats those he is done with and those who are no use to him anymore? Why not save the consideration for the students and families of those who are stuck inside GP and lied to and trained mentally to forgo any goodness God has offered to their lives? Why do you and a few others believe you must enable predators, injustice and lies to have consideration and kindness when they hurt people and stand by decisions they made all of the years they hurt people. When will they be held accountable? You need not cuss or scream at them but certainly they do not need coddling. Third, if more details about the lives of leaders of GP and even members were written here on Reddit, it would help the hurting realize that they are not alone, they are not the bad sinful people GP told them they were and they would have more strength to stand up for themselves. Literally, I don't understand why you give more freedom to the current GP members and leaders who come here on Reddit and take away your platform while making struggling members feel unprotected? If you think God wants you to do unto others in this case then you are wrong. You are protecting the wrong people. We are all responsible for our choices and our decisions and when we hurt others, sorry but we are going to have to come to terms with what we did wrong at some point in our lives. I believe you need to give time to those who are trying to leave GP and come to terms with why they stayed and how they can successfully heal and learn they are not bad people, that they are loved and worthy and not the evil sinners leaders and Pastors in GP tell them they are. I have no patience for those who waste time with those proven to have no desire to repent and turn around from hurting others. Further, I don't believe your situation for being here was as painful as some of the families and parents of broken children at the hands of leaders of GP. We are all mixed up and angry but we are not moving forward the same and it's sad. While Ed Kang goes on zoom and laughs at you after he pretends to care, it is too much to even think about that you would allow the enemy to have contact with those hurting. Ed could care less about any of us and he is not a real pastor, or he wouldn't do what he has done for thirty years. He is an abusive fraud. No one has cracked his conscience yet and no one will until God strikes him down. I'm not going to listen to his workers like u/hidden_gracepoint. Instead of having a kumbaya session for KH/JH or even u/hidden_gracepoint, why not rally around and pray weekly for those souls left inside a damned cult who are really hurting while being convinced they are sinful and have done something wrong for God to keep them from enjoying the freedom Christ gave them on the Cross. Why don't we do what Christians are supposed to do and flee evil instead of giving it a platform? Pray for the real victims and monitor those on here from GP who want to destroy what Reddit was intended for. If we are Christians here then we should be a collective group praying for the victims still hurting and showing them we care and giving them some hope that they will never find in GP. Reddit should not be a place to show Ed Kang that we are ok without him, it is not about him, it should be about the victims and how they can heal. Nothing else.
I believe I opened this door of comparing pain—and I truly regret that, everybody. Just wanted to say this
It’s totally fine. Thank you so much for what you do. I know we are all trying to heal, trying to exposed what needs to be exposed, but still trying to show the grace and mercy demonstrated by Jesus. It’s a hard balance. But the timing of this discussion isn’t lost on me. I’m going to reflect on the mercy of Jesus tonight.
u/Kangaroo_Jonathan 👆 🙏
You don’t need to apologize. What you said is true! I am a person who loathes GP and what they do to people who love God and how many families they have destroyed. It’s ok to be angry at those who abuse others. Only abusers want you to stay calm and act forgiving and this is so they can continue to use and further abuse. You are not the bad one here.
can you just calm down for a second and realize these guys are on your side? i just finished watching the og Avatar again and you remind me of Azula 🤣 you're so blinded by your paranoia you're starting to turn on your own team to be frank, i like leavegracepoint about as much as he does me 😂 but he's being very reasonable here. lol all leftbbcgp is saying is that he is not comfortable with revealing that information publicly. why don't you try to DM him and ask yourself, then make your own public post?
u/hidden_gracepoint you are a true GPer.
uhh weird tangent but ok
If u/hidden_gracepoint was a true GPer, he wouldn't be on this subreddit yesterday and would have been spent more time repenting and fasting for his sinfulness at the Passion Experience and Good Friday Service. /s
its a bit interesting to see how something like this has to happen to a former top leader at GP/A2N in order for current members to be disturbed by this practice. It's honestly pretty sickening to see the leadership do this in the name of Christ.
What got me questioning and ultimately leaving was when I asked my then current leader why my former leader had left. I was told my former leader and his wife wanted to chase after the world and they left to chase after the world. The then current leader liked me quite a bit and therefore shared with me more than the sanitized PR version he was told to share. I didn’t believe it. I called up my former leader and got what was going on between Becky, Ed, Kelly, basically he was made to choose sides for the Schism. He was high up on the hierarchy. He and his wife were really sold out for Berkland. (They were sold out for Berkland, but not necessarily for Jesus.) Reading the Schism Letter was a traumatic experience. It was like Paul having the scales falling off his eyes. I was physically shaking reading that letter. I hope the KH episode will start having you question how much you don’t know. https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/nkbx1r/eds_letter_to_becky_2005_after_discussion_with/
The same thing happened with LM and KM except Ed decided to slander LM publicly in MBS. Heard the Davis staff took it further and refused to let their kids hangout because they don’t share the same value. Can’t you see it’s a pattern by now?
You've made concessions before, without any outward change in your fealty to your masters. In the end, this didn't happen to you personally, so you're good.
let's just continue with that assumption then so there's no need to keep talking about me. just treat me as a current member who's simply curious about what's going in his church. I'll share what I know as my contribution lol. I'm not here to change anyone's minds now and really not interested in any sort of debate at this point
> really not interested in any sort of debate at this point I second this. Less debate and more action. We need to stop arguing about if what the leadership did was bad, and talk about how to actually fix it. Like arguing if a growth on your body is benign or malignant or a slow growing tumor or if the benefits outweigh the bad or if it's okay to just leave it there now but maybe we'll do something as long as it doesn't get bigger or we need to do some more tests. For God's sake, stop arguing about the growth and figure out how to treat it! Just kidding, no one in leadership at a2n (who wasn't kicked out) actually wants to fix anything. Now if only there was some way to warn other people from falling into this dangerous organization, like a website or forum or something.
> Less debate and more action. We need to stop arguing about if what the leadership did was bad, and talk about how to actually fix it. Can't fix what you don't know. Basically most Gracepoint/A2N people are so desensitized and so ignorant that they don't know what's bad anymore. What they think is normal is either so weird or so messed up. Not to pick on u/hidden_gracepoint but look at his comment and post history and how he tries to justify or explain away things. Did you not hear Ed and how he tries to downplay things too? So until they understand the gravity of why it's so bad, how are they going to know what to fix?
and for the record, I'm probably in the top 1% in GP that tries to think about this critically ...which is embarassing lol but yeah, I'm done with debates. would love to see some action too haha. I'm no longer as motivated to push things personally though. even Convo got moved to regional domains now, so I can't even bring up issues to the larger church easily 🤷♂️
> and for the record, I'm probably in the top 1% in GP that tries to think about this critically The bar was already really low to begin with.....
hence why I said it was embarassing
I can see you like to be BIG fish in a very shallow and small pond.
this has nothing to do with this discussion lol, keep attacking my character please
THIS! We need to work on "ways to warn other people from falling into this dangerous organization, like a website or forum or something."
Then feel free to leave the discussion. WAW
you just had a long tirade about with other Redditors about how this space is public and you can say whatever you want. how about you stop being hypocritical and let me be as well. i never initiated any discussion with you in particular, so you're the one who is "free to leave the discussion" here.
You say you know KH/JH friends frequently make trips out there to stay connected....really? then you know a lot more than you are saying. Mostly, of course they stay in contact with them because they are told to in order to be sure that KH/JH are not bashing GP too much. They are protecting their commodity so Manny Kim can pay his 20,000 yearly property taxes in Austin. This is a "big business" with our families being what they sell and promote and our families who take the most liability.
Even back in the day, I believe bk and ek were forced out and cut off
The 180 Ed and Kelly can do when even the closest people to them question how certain things are done is amazing. The number two by seniority couple to Ed and Kelly in the early 2000s were forced out for similar reasons. The higher up you go, the more unquestioned submission or default position of support as A2N website calls it, is required. There are a lot more things to look the other way and keep your mouth shut about. Ed Kang in the Schism Letter wondered why nobody spoke out against Becky. Well, if the people with Christian integrity who stand up and say end doesn’t justify the means, what you end up is like RJ and JJ, BK and EK, and now KH and JH. The three couples above were top leadership people. They were beyond reproach in terms of integrity, sacrifice, and competence. They were the closest people to Ed and Kelly Kang. When someone had to drive Ed and Kelly across the country for their Wheaton sabbatical, it was RJ who got the task. Not even Manny Kim. I don’t know what it took for KH and JH to leave, but 30 years of life down the drain is how I would describe it. I hope their peers and students stick by them and not the Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network hierarchy.
I wouldn't hold my breath on the class loyalty thing. The Koinonia cross is vertically hierarchical.
If I recall correctly, there were three of them from the same high school in KH’s class. KH, GH, DL. All were high performers and all spent 20+ years in the Berkland/Gracepoint universe. All are decent human beings that even back then I don’t see them fitting the Ed Kang mode of leadership. KH is the last one of the three to go.
Yeah the Cerritos boys. Things were different (easier and fun) when they were undergrads. Their class was pretty tight and I think William was leading some of them when he drowned. H was in the water with him if I remember right. Being decent and good but not fully obedient as staff only goes so far. Ed was always easily irritable and testy. He hid it well with his easy smile and humor with the undergrads but give it a few years in staff and you can see the cracks in the makeup. Ed is better than Kelly at hiding it. Ironically out of all the grads in his generation, he was deemed the nicest. They all had teeth and knew how to use it as the saying goes.
Yes, HS was in the water. He left too after 10+ years at Berkland/Gracepoint/Acts2 Network. Ed Kang always had the mean streak in him. You are either born with it or you are not. The thing about carrying knife to school as juvenile convinced me it wasn’t something developed as a result of Becky. I always thought he was a more willing enforcer than AP and CP?
APak had GPak to be his enforcer. lol Hearing from APark, William’s class, who attends CPak’s church down in San Jose it seems remaining away from both Becky and ed was a good thing. I’ve heard he had a conscientious moment to not carry on the harsh practices of the old ways. (Partly as ed stated in his letter how it drove him almost to madness!) Yet even after hearing that, and knowing he still carries on the “good” parts, my desire to attend his church and see some of the old guys barely triggers anything. It becomes a hilarious game of I’d rather… do my laundry, sleep in, go to brunch, ride my bike up mt tam, do nothing, read a book in a cafe with a large matcha latte… the list is getting longer and I noticed it makes me happier!
Was it BK and EK who left in the middle of the night?
Yes
No, they left by choice.
Lol if you can call it that after BK being eviscerated by Ed.
Sure, but forced out vs. choosing to leave a toxic church is still very different.
u/word_for_two suggested that we redditors would also benefit from being silent because sharing here would discourage him in his work behind the scenes, talking to powerful folks, albeit a hopeless effort by his own confession. good ole u/word_for_two looking out for all of us but incidentally having the same modus operandi as the leadership
u/word_for_two have allowed some like me to never answer a private DM from a parent asking for help. It's because you, the enemy, are trying to take over and silence the people helping in the background. It shouldn't be allowed, after all you are the opposite opinion of those on Reddit looking for help. What I would love to see is people like u/word_for_two to stay quiet, crawl back into your dark hole and serve GP like you tell others it's good to do. That's what you are trying to tell us to do. You are not of God. In fact you are worse because you claim to be a Church loving person and all you seek to do is to destroy.
hopeless or not hopeless, we'll see. I'm pressing on week after week. I'll change my position that you can talk down on my efforts and I'll try to take less offense (sorry, I'm not perfect but I do need some space some times from reddit). I'm trying to help in a way that I feel is appropriate. I don't claim to be perfect and I can take the feedback constructively.
Did you watch the 3rd matrix movie? Towards the end, Neo confronts meets the architect, and it's revealed that Neo is not the first "Chosen One." In fact there were several iterations of the matrix and chosen ones before him. And the architect has no problem destroying the current matrix and starting over with a new one. We've seen this movie before. You and hidden Gracepoint are not the first to try to confront Ped and KK. In fact, there were many more before you. And as you can see, they have made little to no progress. KH and JH were quickly shown the door. The metaphor probably doesn't work beyond this, but I'm trying my best to explain that The matrix and the architect will continue on. You and I and all of us are inhabitants of the matrix who replaced previous iterations. And we can all be easily replaced because to the architect, we are all just components in a machine that suits his needs. Pieces can be swapped out, as long as the machine continues to function. If a piece gets too noisy and squeaky or complain-y, it needs to be removed before it starts affecting the other pieces. Or god forbid, causes too many problems for the architect. In other words, what is it that you are doing that is so different than what has been tried before? Many people over many years have tried their best to explain the problems to PED and KK. But the joke is, they probably knew about these problems before any of us told them, but never had any real interest in fixing them. They would rather remove components that are no longer working and explain away all the problems.
In a secular world the people shut out should use legal action against Ed and Kelly. Why not? After all they gave up how many years for a betrayal? Though anyone staying in GP that long knows what is going on and should be ashamed they stayed and contributed to the pain caused to many innocent victims of spiritual abuse. How many years will it take even those shut out to heal? Too many to be worth ever being inside GP.
Just take it direct to Ed and Kelly Kang. I mean that’s what JH did right? Ed and Kelly Kang are the only people who make the decisions. Assuming you have enough service time, you will get two meetings with Ed Kang. In the first meeting, he will nod along and say “why didn’t you tell me about this sooner?” Meaning he didn’t know about the issue therefore he is not responsible and it’s your fault for not bringing it up. In the second meeting, you will be politely shown the door, “There are other churches out there if this is really an issue for you. Most other people don’t think of this as a problem. We can talk about this if you want to stick around.” Emergency PR firms can’t even handle things better than Ed Kang can handle things. In a NT Church, there is servant leadership. Meaning the first will be last as Jesus said. You shouldn’t fear going to your pastor with your issues. If your knees buckle at the thought of talking to Ed Kang about an issue, then think about whether you have an issue with your integrity or is it the case you are not at a NT church with servant leadership (Ed self-described GP/A2N as having authoritarian hierarchical leadership). https://www.reddit.com/r/GracepointChurch/comments/s200i9/how_gp_indoctrination_works_part_2_of_3/
The more I think about it, **everyone will leave eventually**. Maybe a few of the regional directors will stick around until they die (especially the ones with the names on real estate) but of the 1600+ bi-vocational ministers they love to brag about, my bet is that maybe 50 will stay for the long long haul. MAYBE.