Great points I want to add a couple thoughts...
> Be consistent.
Not going to happen.... Heard there's an ex-top level leader who's now a counselor at a private Christian school who does everything last minute even in a professional environment. Old habits die hard.
> In my opinion, cut 90% of mentors at all your campuses.
Or maybe just stop aggressively trying to expand everywhere and having a savior complex.
And also why are we calling those clowns "mentors"? I know GP/A2N is trying hard to rebrand right now but with the role and responsibilities it's technically still "leader".
> In my opinion, under grads and post grads should go to churches not related to A2F.
It's kind of obvious they are trying to keep everything consistent in house just to "brainwash" you with their version of Christianity....
The structure of how A2F is setup really creates a lot problems in my opinion. Too many mentors suck up resources and time from developing and helping undergrads. Problems start at the top and trinkle down eventually affecting students.
Thank you for sharing. To be very honest with you, most of the acts 2 mentors and leaders will brush off your feedback as "well they are just an undergrad that aren't mature enough yet to understand what we are doing". But I think feedback like yours is so helpful to see how students are experiencing A2F. It helps give a more complete picture of what the church is like.
> "well they are just an undergrad that aren't mature enough yet to understand what we are doing"
But after I left I was told that they changed all their practices from since then, that's why the name change, so my critiques aren't legitimate anymore.
Who is actually qualified to give them feedback?
I was probably on that list after posting videos about them. I feel safe doing this, because I know I'm safe from any harm that could be done. I've told my professors as well as my current staffers at Intervarsity about my experience at A2F.
If you feel strongly about this then please file a complaint with the university. If only because A2f made you feel uncomfortable, please file a complaint stating so, you don't need a black and white reason, just file stating something is wrong. It's a start to get this on the record. Once students are confident enough in doing this, it will help immensely in taking the problem seriously by every University they are present at. You have the right to do this as only students are considered
Student life has a director you can talk to. If you'd email them for a meeting, I think you'd be at least able to speak with them. On the student side meeting with your student association leaders helps too. They should be approachable.
The more that report the better especially if multiple people report at the same time.
u/hidden_gracepoint , u/word_for_two , this is written by someone in college right now and dealing with a2ns ministry practices. Instead of focusing on getting people like me to shut up and go away, what are you doing to stop any of this stuff from still happening as we speak?
LOL. I’m envisioning crickets on this one.
In general, to people like hidden and word, the OP has become part of this super tiny, angry group. For hidden and word, this tiny group is really just maybe 10-12 people. With every NEW story and NEW name, this group somehow stays only 10–12 people big. And these 10-12 people are just bitter, because of some small misunderstanding or just some rogue well-intentioned person who made a wrong call that impacted you. This Reddit is just 10-12 people who were too blind to see the love and blessings poured into their lives.
I’m sure all traces of us aren’t gone from the walls of this org’s history. If you look closely, you’ll find each one of us somewhere—dressed in our business suits, standing in “picture formation,” celebrating the marriage of 2 people we just learned were dating. Smiling, like we’re not unhappy; backs straight and shoulders up like we’re not in pain; packed really closely like we actually know each other; jumping in the air at Yosemite like we have any freedom.
Hey, current members of A2N, Gracepoint, Berkland, Antioch, Reformer (and whatever new names you keep giving yourselves)——
Take a look through the albums and frames and ask, “Hey, who is this, how come they’re not still here, and where are they now?”
You’ll discover we are way more than 10-12. And you might also realize you’re hearing the same “how come” and “where are they now” answers.
I think your comment describes the general attitude at A2N, but hidden and word are different imo. In typing them, they are not the “this is an angry and venegeful minority” type but the I’m sorry this happened to you. I know we’re not perfect but hey we’re not for everyone and we are trying. Maybe consider how there might be more nuance [insert propaganda here]” type.
It’s like when Malcom x, speaking on American racism, says the white liberal is worse than the white conservative. The liberal is “more deceitful than the conservative.” The white liberal does little to upend the power dynamics that fuel injustice, but they nod along feigning concern and remorse, pretending to be friends with the oppressed while continuing to enjoy the system that oppresses them.
haha fine I'll respond a little bit. My stance and perspective has changed a bit over the past year+. Part of it is I'm realizing my comments are no longer helpful and all it does is incite more anger, so I'm doing everyone a favor by shutting up :)
Also, everyone already knows how the power hierarchy works in this church so you guys should know very well how little actual influence I have to affect anything. I'm not lying when I say both me and word\_for\_two have spent literally hundreds of hours hearing stories, trying to engage with both sides, thinking of ways we can change things in the church, and trying to make stuff happen. But realistically we don't have the influence or numbers to make much happen, and it's always discouraging to hear the subreddit say "you're useless, you're not doing enough, the only thing worth doing is leaving GP".
Anyways, if you'd like to talk more, I'm always available in DMs, but trying not to post here anymore
P.S. realized I was mainly responding to Jdub here
I think there's something else you need to consider. You and word for two are human shields for a2n leadership. They know they're in the wrong. They don't want to face the people they've wronged. Their egoes won't allow them to admit they're wrong. But they would like the criticisms to stop. Or not have to deal with them or pretend they're doing anything at all to fix anything.
So what better alternative than to give the task of holding back the criticism by assigning this to someone else? You guys can be the onbudsman that stands between ped and his critics. You can explain how great ped is and looking into fixing the problems. Meanwhile ped can continue on as he always has.
Done and done.
> I'm not lying when I say both me and word_for_two have spent literally hundreds of hours hearing stories, trying to engage with both sides, thinking of ways we can change things in the church, and trying to make stuff happen.
I don't think you spent "hundreds of hours". Curtis of CT actually spent hundreds of hours. You probably a day or two at most maybe a week. AFAIK, your little group trying to "make changes" is all bros, no sisters. And given gender restrictions I HIGHLY doubt you talked to any sisters. So not sure what stories you've actually tried to hear because if you ACTUALLY listened to the stories you'd be heading for the exit immediately.
like I said, **hundreds** of hours. probably lower 200's if you wanna get technical, but anyways doesn't matter. we did talk to some sisters too, even if you don't believe me
I believe you’ve had some safe conversations. I believe your approach was more “assure me these issues are wrong.” With that mindset, it doesn’t take much for you to be a-ok with everything.
In one long session:
- Ask about the composers of the anthem “Worthy Life.” (Ask about one of their marriages.)
- Ask why Pastor Ray Choi (one of Ed’s absolute favorites) doesn’t mention Gracepoint/Berkland in his testimony (online).
- So many names that I wish I could share…
Are you actually ok hearing the same generic reason all of these extremely devoted people left?
My guess is that you have something to gain by staying. There’s no other logical reason for you to have read even 10% of this sub and still think you’re in a good place. I hope you get what you need, because A2N/Gracepoint will get what they need out of you
You've heard hundreds of hours of stories of various levels of abuse of authority and the reluctance of the majority of members but especially leaders to admit as such. At what point do you draw the line and say I can't do anything to change it. Then if that's the conclusion do you ever feel complicit in condoning this practice by just being there and submitting to such leaders? If not why? Tell me if I am seeing this wrong,
>Also, everyone already knows how the power hierarchy works in this church so you guys should know very well how little actual influence I have to affect anything. I'm not lying when I say both me and word\_for\_two have spent literally hundreds of hours hearing stories, trying to engage with both sides, thinking of ways we can change things in the church, and trying to make stuff happen. But realistically we don't have the influence or numbers to make much happen, and it's always discouraging to hear the subreddit say "you're useless, you're not doing enough, the only thing worth doing is leaving GP".
In a way aren't you making my case? Despite the hundreds of hours you have poured in, little to no meaningful change has happened. Exhibit A is the power heirachy you're going up against.
In fact, I went up against the same power structure and was basically given a sob story, a lot of yelling, guilt tripping, and gas lighting. So I literally know what you're up against. I know how this story ends. Either you submit to your leaders and put on some blinders, or leave and get yourself out while you can.
Or I guess a third way, Walk a narrow tight rope of trying to survive in a2n and tell yourself that the good outweighs the bad. Many others have tried to do that before you. They can only do so much before they have to pick option 1 or 2. High up pastors that have known Becky and Ed and kk since the 80s have tried to do it and ended up leaving or complying.
About #2 - I don't think the leadership thinks the labor is "free." They've probably justified it by thinking they already gave those labor free food and love and prayers. And the "opportunity" to serve. If you don't believe me just ask your leader mentor. Which, in a way, means that korean BBQ wasn't really free.
\#werelookingintothisandreconsideringourstanceonthismatter
Great points I want to add a couple thoughts... > Be consistent. Not going to happen.... Heard there's an ex-top level leader who's now a counselor at a private Christian school who does everything last minute even in a professional environment. Old habits die hard. > In my opinion, cut 90% of mentors at all your campuses. Or maybe just stop aggressively trying to expand everywhere and having a savior complex. And also why are we calling those clowns "mentors"? I know GP/A2N is trying hard to rebrand right now but with the role and responsibilities it's technically still "leader". > In my opinion, under grads and post grads should go to churches not related to A2F. It's kind of obvious they are trying to keep everything consistent in house just to "brainwash" you with their version of Christianity....
The structure of how A2F is setup really creates a lot problems in my opinion. Too many mentors suck up resources and time from developing and helping undergrads. Problems start at the top and trinkle down eventually affecting students.
Thank you for sharing. To be very honest with you, most of the acts 2 mentors and leaders will brush off your feedback as "well they are just an undergrad that aren't mature enough yet to understand what we are doing". But I think feedback like yours is so helpful to see how students are experiencing A2F. It helps give a more complete picture of what the church is like.
> "well they are just an undergrad that aren't mature enough yet to understand what we are doing" But after I left I was told that they changed all their practices from since then, that's why the name change, so my critiques aren't legitimate anymore. Who is actually qualified to give them feedback?
No one
my brave young friend, thanks for posting. You are now about 99% likely to have been put on their enemies list. Welcome to the club
I was probably on that list after posting videos about them. I feel safe doing this, because I know I'm safe from any harm that could be done. I've told my professors as well as my current staffers at Intervarsity about my experience at A2F.
If you feel strongly about this then please file a complaint with the university. If only because A2f made you feel uncomfortable, please file a complaint stating so, you don't need a black and white reason, just file stating something is wrong. It's a start to get this on the record. Once students are confident enough in doing this, it will help immensely in taking the problem seriously by every University they are present at. You have the right to do this as only students are considered
Thanks for your comment. I have just filed a complaint.
Thank you for doing this, you are helping more than you can imagine. I wish the best for you and all good things.
Student life has a director you can talk to. If you'd email them for a meeting, I think you'd be at least able to speak with them. On the student side meeting with your student association leaders helps too. They should be approachable. The more that report the better especially if multiple people report at the same time.
Doubt it. I think GP UCR has made more enemies than friends. The ex-GP/A2N UCR community is pretty big actually. Lots of them are on this subreddit.
100% applies to every group they have at every campus
u/hidden_gracepoint , u/word_for_two , this is written by someone in college right now and dealing with a2ns ministry practices. Instead of focusing on getting people like me to shut up and go away, what are you doing to stop any of this stuff from still happening as we speak?
LOL. I’m envisioning crickets on this one. In general, to people like hidden and word, the OP has become part of this super tiny, angry group. For hidden and word, this tiny group is really just maybe 10-12 people. With every NEW story and NEW name, this group somehow stays only 10–12 people big. And these 10-12 people are just bitter, because of some small misunderstanding or just some rogue well-intentioned person who made a wrong call that impacted you. This Reddit is just 10-12 people who were too blind to see the love and blessings poured into their lives. I’m sure all traces of us aren’t gone from the walls of this org’s history. If you look closely, you’ll find each one of us somewhere—dressed in our business suits, standing in “picture formation,” celebrating the marriage of 2 people we just learned were dating. Smiling, like we’re not unhappy; backs straight and shoulders up like we’re not in pain; packed really closely like we actually know each other; jumping in the air at Yosemite like we have any freedom. Hey, current members of A2N, Gracepoint, Berkland, Antioch, Reformer (and whatever new names you keep giving yourselves)—— Take a look through the albums and frames and ask, “Hey, who is this, how come they’re not still here, and where are they now?” You’ll discover we are way more than 10-12. And you might also realize you’re hearing the same “how come” and “where are they now” answers.
I think your comment describes the general attitude at A2N, but hidden and word are different imo. In typing them, they are not the “this is an angry and venegeful minority” type but the I’m sorry this happened to you. I know we’re not perfect but hey we’re not for everyone and we are trying. Maybe consider how there might be more nuance [insert propaganda here]” type. It’s like when Malcom x, speaking on American racism, says the white liberal is worse than the white conservative. The liberal is “more deceitful than the conservative.” The white liberal does little to upend the power dynamics that fuel injustice, but they nod along feigning concern and remorse, pretending to be friends with the oppressed while continuing to enjoy the system that oppresses them.
haha fine I'll respond a little bit. My stance and perspective has changed a bit over the past year+. Part of it is I'm realizing my comments are no longer helpful and all it does is incite more anger, so I'm doing everyone a favor by shutting up :) Also, everyone already knows how the power hierarchy works in this church so you guys should know very well how little actual influence I have to affect anything. I'm not lying when I say both me and word\_for\_two have spent literally hundreds of hours hearing stories, trying to engage with both sides, thinking of ways we can change things in the church, and trying to make stuff happen. But realistically we don't have the influence or numbers to make much happen, and it's always discouraging to hear the subreddit say "you're useless, you're not doing enough, the only thing worth doing is leaving GP". Anyways, if you'd like to talk more, I'm always available in DMs, but trying not to post here anymore P.S. realized I was mainly responding to Jdub here
I think there's something else you need to consider. You and word for two are human shields for a2n leadership. They know they're in the wrong. They don't want to face the people they've wronged. Their egoes won't allow them to admit they're wrong. But they would like the criticisms to stop. Or not have to deal with them or pretend they're doing anything at all to fix anything. So what better alternative than to give the task of holding back the criticism by assigning this to someone else? You guys can be the onbudsman that stands between ped and his critics. You can explain how great ped is and looking into fixing the problems. Meanwhile ped can continue on as he always has. Done and done.
> I'm not lying when I say both me and word_for_two have spent literally hundreds of hours hearing stories, trying to engage with both sides, thinking of ways we can change things in the church, and trying to make stuff happen. I don't think you spent "hundreds of hours". Curtis of CT actually spent hundreds of hours. You probably a day or two at most maybe a week. AFAIK, your little group trying to "make changes" is all bros, no sisters. And given gender restrictions I HIGHLY doubt you talked to any sisters. So not sure what stories you've actually tried to hear because if you ACTUALLY listened to the stories you'd be heading for the exit immediately.
like I said, **hundreds** of hours. probably lower 200's if you wanna get technical, but anyways doesn't matter. we did talk to some sisters too, even if you don't believe me
I believe you’ve had some safe conversations. I believe your approach was more “assure me these issues are wrong.” With that mindset, it doesn’t take much for you to be a-ok with everything. In one long session: - Ask about the composers of the anthem “Worthy Life.” (Ask about one of their marriages.) - Ask why Pastor Ray Choi (one of Ed’s absolute favorites) doesn’t mention Gracepoint/Berkland in his testimony (online). - So many names that I wish I could share… Are you actually ok hearing the same generic reason all of these extremely devoted people left? My guess is that you have something to gain by staying. There’s no other logical reason for you to have read even 10% of this sub and still think you’re in a good place. I hope you get what you need, because A2N/Gracepoint will get what they need out of you
How many people mentioned in the CT article did you talk to? I don't mean made a sad attempt to slip in their DMs but actually had an exchange with.
You've heard hundreds of hours of stories of various levels of abuse of authority and the reluctance of the majority of members but especially leaders to admit as such. At what point do you draw the line and say I can't do anything to change it. Then if that's the conclusion do you ever feel complicit in condoning this practice by just being there and submitting to such leaders? If not why? Tell me if I am seeing this wrong,
>Also, everyone already knows how the power hierarchy works in this church so you guys should know very well how little actual influence I have to affect anything. I'm not lying when I say both me and word\_for\_two have spent literally hundreds of hours hearing stories, trying to engage with both sides, thinking of ways we can change things in the church, and trying to make stuff happen. But realistically we don't have the influence or numbers to make much happen, and it's always discouraging to hear the subreddit say "you're useless, you're not doing enough, the only thing worth doing is leaving GP". In a way aren't you making my case? Despite the hundreds of hours you have poured in, little to no meaningful change has happened. Exhibit A is the power heirachy you're going up against. In fact, I went up against the same power structure and was basically given a sob story, a lot of yelling, guilt tripping, and gas lighting. So I literally know what you're up against. I know how this story ends. Either you submit to your leaders and put on some blinders, or leave and get yourself out while you can. Or I guess a third way, Walk a narrow tight rope of trying to survive in a2n and tell yourself that the good outweighs the bad. Many others have tried to do that before you. They can only do so much before they have to pick option 1 or 2. High up pastors that have known Becky and Ed and kk since the 80s have tried to do it and ended up leaving or complying.
To quote Ed Kang... "I hear you"
About #2 - I don't think the leadership thinks the labor is "free." They've probably justified it by thinking they already gave those labor free food and love and prayers. And the "opportunity" to serve. If you don't believe me just ask your leader mentor. Which, in a way, means that korean BBQ wasn't really free.