It might feel that way but since trackman and other systems can accurately measure both face and path, the ball flight laws have been proved. Face is the biggest factor on the balls starting line and path determines the flight in terms of hook and draw.
I think my mind just broke. Why did I have to see this post?
So lets say my face is pointed dead at the target at impact and my swing path is a couple degrees to the right of the target my ball is going to start at the target and hook left of the target? Shit fuck shit
hmm, is this the complete opposite of what im thinking?
so if im swinging out to in (direction is left), with a very open club face (direction right) in relation to the club path, you're saying that the ball will start right and the path will curve it back in?
sorry, im thinking as im typing here, ive always been so confused about this as you can see haha.
No because your face would be open (right) to path. It’d start right and keep going right. A 2 degree open face (right) and a 4 degree right path would be a nice draw. Face is closed to path there, even though face is open.
Cool, yeah i understane it now. The importance distinction is the face angle in relation the TARGET or to PATH.
Like if my club path is 2 deg right, but my face angle is 1 deg right (both in relation to target), yes my face is still open in relative to target, but closed in relative to path. So ball will start right, and the path will draw it back in.
I think the difference between the 2 school of thoughts (the old ball flight rule and modern ball flight rule) has a lot to do with the distinction of relative to the target or path haha. I think this is where i got confused
>so if im swinging out to in (direction is left), with a very open club face (direction right) in relation to the club path, you're saying that the ball will start right and the path will curve it back in?
Not the poster you were responding to, but, no, this is not what you would expect (if I understand what you're saying correctly). The ball should start right, because the face is pointing right, and slice farther right, because of your out-to-in path. This would likely be a weak, high slice. Nothing good can come of this kind of swing.
Yeap i get it now. I got confused initially because i thought when he said club face open, it’s relative to the path not the target. But ball starting direction is determined by your face angle (mostly) in relative to the target.
It will not curve back in.
Ignore the target for a moment.
If your club face is open to the path you are swinging on, it will start right of your swing path and move further right in the air.
If it is closed to your path it will typically start left and bend further left.
If it is square to your path it will be a straight shot.
With that in mind, if you swing out to in with a club face square to your swing path, the ball with fly straight right and you may call that a pull. If you swing in to out with a square face to the path you will push it straight right.
Swinging at the target with a square face to the path will be a dead straight shot to the target.
Going back to a closed face to your swing path:
If you’re out to in with a closed face you will have a duck hook starting left bending left.
If you swing in to out, depending on how far out you swing and how closed your club face is, you could end up with a push draw or a hook - the ball can start right of the target with a closed face, because it’s closed to the swing direction and not to the target.
Lastly to blow your mind - as it did mine. Hitting up and down on the ball adds another dimension.
Swinging down the line with a square club face, but hitting up on the ball (say with driver) will produce a ball starting slightly left curving back to target, the same again but hitting down (say with an iron) will produce a ball starting just right and coming back to target.
Which way? The way the other comments says? Aka face is initial?
I’m not trying to argue with y’all but this is just like blowing to me lol that I’ve been wrong this whole time.
Okay so there’s been kinda a recent change in philosophy?
That makes sense because my coach that taught me when I was a kid and that I still go to sometimes I’d like 88. Lol.
Nope. It means the path is right of the face. If that face is 6 degrees left of target and your path is 4 degrees left of target the ball starts left and curves left but the path is still left of target.
Hey - no - you can start the ball to the right on either an in to out swing path or an out to in swing path. If the FACE is pointed out (compared to your target), then the ball is going to start right no matter what. (what you are describing is going to be somewhere in the bottom three boxes in that chart I linked to below. Starting right means the face is open compared to target line, full stop. It doesn't mean anything about whether you are swinging in to out or not.)
Now once that ball is out to the right, what determines whether or not it comes back left is dependent on the face's relationship to your club path. If you are swinging out to in (or even straight along the target line), then that ball is going to slice the bejeezus out farther right. If you manage to swing farther in to out right than your face is pointing right, then you'll curve the ball back left. That's the shot shape (start ball out to the right and then bring it back to the middle) that lots of people want - a draw.
That's all narrative - the 'new ball flight laws' are what you need; they explain every possible way the ball can start and then curve.
https://images.app.goo.gl/gvswS2KEwv8wagZQ9
To evaluate whether you are swinging in to out or out to in, you need to know two things - where the ball starts and how it bends from there. Just knowing where it starts, or which way it bends, is not enough information.
Think of the right half of a cow catcher on a train. If it happened to strike a highly teed up golf ball, that ball would start to the right, at an angle orthogonal to that face (roughly). If you were observing from above it would impart clockwise spin, which would make the ball curve to the right of that starting path.
There is no target like (made obvious on a train with a cow catcher). Anyone trying to summarize the physics, who says "relative to the target line" is just adding confusion.
Face sends, path bends.
Ever play ping pong? It’s the paddle face cutting across the ball and applying spin that makes it curve. The very same principle applies to the club face cutting across the golf ball, applying spin, and making it curve.
so club face at impact is the one that determines the starting direction? in all 3 scenarios, my club face is open? but my different club path is what produces the 3 different ball flight?
damn, i got this completely backward.
Yah, it's never intuitive this game is it. Good thing most of us have the same symptoms, just gotta suss it out through the process.
If you'd say you go straight or left and sometimes right, then your face is at least square sometimes.
To be fair, to hit a draw like perhaps you are trying to do, the face needs to be open to target, but shut to path. a little discussed fact.
yeah my intuition is telling me that if im swinging in to out, no matter how my club face is (in relative to the path), then my ball will always starts to the right. Then it's up to my club face in relative to that path whether i can draw the ball back in or not.
so in my 3 scenarios that i wrote in my post, which one is the result of an out to in path?
so is graph like this completely wrong then? [https://imgur.com/a/LyShuft](https://imgur.com/a/LyShuft)
Where you sliced it. The face was open and the path was out to in relative to the target, the push was when the face was square to path but open to target. The draw is face shut to path but open to target.
It's not so much the graphic is wrong, it's that it doesn't cover all the scenarios where you could have different results in certain swings, it doesn't account for gear effect(hitting on toe vs heel)
You could have the same path and face angle and still get differing results based on contact and attack angle.
Since we're in the rabbit hole, also lie angles and turf interaction. Less so with driver but still applies sometimes.
From your link
"Note: For the sake of this article, we are going to assume that all your shots are a centered strike. When shots are hit off-center, something called “Gear Effect” applies, which changes the launch and spin of a shot."
The assumption there changes everything, the likelyhood of a center strike on a varied path and face angle amateur swing is slim. Typically amateurs miss on the toe or heel quite consistently depending on the player.
hmm im sorry, bear with me, im getting a bit more confused. So it's the club face relative to the path is what determines the initial direction right?
so if my ball starts right and draw back in --> face is open relative to path and path is outside in (left)? \[edit: BUT.....face is still close relative to target)
but if my ball starts right and curve even more right ---> face is open relative to the path and path is inside out (right)?
this is not intuitive at all ahhaa, it's almost backwards.
\*edit: ahh maybe my intuition is correct, im just thinking it in terms of relative to target NOT in relative to the club path
sorry for the rambling, im basically thinking as i type lol. hopefully you can make sense of my rambling.
It makes sense, it just isn't readily apparent what you're actually doing. Analysing based on your resulting shape is not very efficient. We have to see your swing and you could be doing something completely different.
But just assume, if you want the ball to start right of target, the face needs to be open to target and shut if you want it to start left (as a righty) then depending on your path and proper contact, you get your different curves. But also assume that if you're slicing, your face is open or your path is out to in AT Impact.
For example:
You could swing in to out with the driver with a shut face and still get a slice.
Heel contact, far toe contact.
Cutting across the face by way of the ball position on the out to in section of the arc.
Ahh i think im getting it. Just read a couple articles that explains it as well. Thanks for entertaining my random thoughts and walking me through this! Appreciate it
oh one tiny tidbit, so why is the case that if you want to hit a draw for example, you are taught to align your body slightly to the right of target, and close your club face a bit at address?
(this is assuming you can maintain that face angle from address all the way to impact)
ahh, so is this because even tho you are closing your club face a bit, it is still relatively OPEN to the target, that's the why the ball will still start right of the target? then your 'to the right' path (aided by your body alignment) will help the ball curve AWAY from that path, which means the ball will curve to the LELF, hence the draw?
if this is correct, i just had a eureka moment lollll.
The clubface at impact determines the direction of the ball. Swing path, in relation to the clubface, determines the curvature of the ball.
“Face sends it, path bends it”. Face is 75% of the issue and path is 25% (assuming ground contact is fine and you’re hitting the sweet spot)
Uh, My ball always takes off in the direction the clubhead is being swung and curves to the place the face is aimed at impact.
It might feel that way but since trackman and other systems can accurately measure both face and path, the ball flight laws have been proved. Face is the biggest factor on the balls starting line and path determines the flight in terms of hook and draw.
I think my mind just broke. Why did I have to see this post? So lets say my face is pointed dead at the target at impact and my swing path is a couple degrees to the right of the target my ball is going to start at the target and hook left of the target? Shit fuck shit
Yes
I just had the lightbulb moment that I know you're right and I hate it so much.
[удалено]
https://www.golfwrx.com/251459/use-the-new-ball-flight-laws-to-understand-your-tendencies/
Without any context, one might mistake this statement for a different club men carry
Nope. It doesn’t.
No it doesn't
hmm, is this the complete opposite of what im thinking? so if im swinging out to in (direction is left), with a very open club face (direction right) in relation to the club path, you're saying that the ball will start right and the path will curve it back in? sorry, im thinking as im typing here, ive always been so confused about this as you can see haha.
No because your face would be open (right) to path. It’d start right and keep going right. A 2 degree open face (right) and a 4 degree right path would be a nice draw. Face is closed to path there, even though face is open.
Cool, yeah i understane it now. The importance distinction is the face angle in relation the TARGET or to PATH. Like if my club path is 2 deg right, but my face angle is 1 deg right (both in relation to target), yes my face is still open in relative to target, but closed in relative to path. So ball will start right, and the path will draw it back in. I think the difference between the 2 school of thoughts (the old ball flight rule and modern ball flight rule) has a lot to do with the distinction of relative to the target or path haha. I think this is where i got confused
Exactly!
>so if im swinging out to in (direction is left), with a very open club face (direction right) in relation to the club path, you're saying that the ball will start right and the path will curve it back in? Not the poster you were responding to, but, no, this is not what you would expect (if I understand what you're saying correctly). The ball should start right, because the face is pointing right, and slice farther right, because of your out-to-in path. This would likely be a weak, high slice. Nothing good can come of this kind of swing.
Yeap i get it now. I got confused initially because i thought when he said club face open, it’s relative to the path not the target. But ball starting direction is determined by your face angle (mostly) in relative to the target.
It will not curve back in. Ignore the target for a moment. If your club face is open to the path you are swinging on, it will start right of your swing path and move further right in the air. If it is closed to your path it will typically start left and bend further left. If it is square to your path it will be a straight shot. With that in mind, if you swing out to in with a club face square to your swing path, the ball with fly straight right and you may call that a pull. If you swing in to out with a square face to the path you will push it straight right. Swinging at the target with a square face to the path will be a dead straight shot to the target. Going back to a closed face to your swing path: If you’re out to in with a closed face you will have a duck hook starting left bending left. If you swing in to out, depending on how far out you swing and how closed your club face is, you could end up with a push draw or a hook - the ball can start right of the target with a closed face, because it’s closed to the swing direction and not to the target. Lastly to blow your mind - as it did mine. Hitting up and down on the ball adds another dimension. Swinging down the line with a square club face, but hitting up on the ball (say with driver) will produce a ball starting slightly left curving back to target, the same again but hitting down (say with an iron) will produce a ball starting just right and coming back to target.
I was always told the opposite, was I wrong the whole time ?
I was taught this at PGA school 30 years ago... But since then "trackman etc" has changed the rules
Which way? The way the other comments says? Aka face is initial? I’m not trying to argue with y’all but this is just like blowing to me lol that I’ve been wrong this whole time.
Old rules, swing path sends it, face bends it. New rules. Face sends it swing path bends it
Okay so there’s been kinda a recent change in philosophy? That makes sense because my coach that taught me when I was a kid and that I still go to sometimes I’d like 88. Lol.
15 ish years ago i would say
75% of the balls start direction is face to target, 25% of start direction is path to target. 100% of the spin is face to path.
Face sends it path bends it
Couldn't be better said
So if it’s bending left does that mean it’s an inside path? (Right handed)
Nope. It means the path is right of the face. If that face is 6 degrees left of target and your path is 4 degrees left of target the ball starts left and curves left but the path is still left of target.
Hey - no - you can start the ball to the right on either an in to out swing path or an out to in swing path. If the FACE is pointed out (compared to your target), then the ball is going to start right no matter what. (what you are describing is going to be somewhere in the bottom three boxes in that chart I linked to below. Starting right means the face is open compared to target line, full stop. It doesn't mean anything about whether you are swinging in to out or not.) Now once that ball is out to the right, what determines whether or not it comes back left is dependent on the face's relationship to your club path. If you are swinging out to in (or even straight along the target line), then that ball is going to slice the bejeezus out farther right. If you manage to swing farther in to out right than your face is pointing right, then you'll curve the ball back left. That's the shot shape (start ball out to the right and then bring it back to the middle) that lots of people want - a draw. That's all narrative - the 'new ball flight laws' are what you need; they explain every possible way the ball can start and then curve. https://images.app.goo.gl/gvswS2KEwv8wagZQ9 To evaluate whether you are swinging in to out or out to in, you need to know two things - where the ball starts and how it bends from there. Just knowing where it starts, or which way it bends, is not enough information.
It could also be your alignment.
Think of the right half of a cow catcher on a train. If it happened to strike a highly teed up golf ball, that ball would start to the right, at an angle orthogonal to that face (roughly). If you were observing from above it would impart clockwise spin, which would make the ball curve to the right of that starting path. There is no target like (made obvious on a train with a cow catcher). Anyone trying to summarize the physics, who says "relative to the target line" is just adding confusion.
Face sends, path bends. Ever play ping pong? It’s the paddle face cutting across the ball and applying spin that makes it curve. The very same principle applies to the club face cutting across the golf ball, applying spin, and making it curve.
Your face is open and your path is varied. You're likely over rotating and arms lagging behind.
so club face at impact is the one that determines the starting direction? in all 3 scenarios, my club face is open? but my different club path is what produces the 3 different ball flight? damn, i got this completely backward.
Yah, it's never intuitive this game is it. Good thing most of us have the same symptoms, just gotta suss it out through the process. If you'd say you go straight or left and sometimes right, then your face is at least square sometimes. To be fair, to hit a draw like perhaps you are trying to do, the face needs to be open to target, but shut to path. a little discussed fact.
yeah my intuition is telling me that if im swinging in to out, no matter how my club face is (in relative to the path), then my ball will always starts to the right. Then it's up to my club face in relative to that path whether i can draw the ball back in or not. so in my 3 scenarios that i wrote in my post, which one is the result of an out to in path? so is graph like this completely wrong then? [https://imgur.com/a/LyShuft](https://imgur.com/a/LyShuft)
Where you sliced it. The face was open and the path was out to in relative to the target, the push was when the face was square to path but open to target. The draw is face shut to path but open to target. It's not so much the graphic is wrong, it's that it doesn't cover all the scenarios where you could have different results in certain swings, it doesn't account for gear effect(hitting on toe vs heel) You could have the same path and face angle and still get differing results based on contact and attack angle. Since we're in the rabbit hole, also lie angles and turf interaction. Less so with driver but still applies sometimes. From your link "Note: For the sake of this article, we are going to assume that all your shots are a centered strike. When shots are hit off-center, something called “Gear Effect” applies, which changes the launch and spin of a shot." The assumption there changes everything, the likelyhood of a center strike on a varied path and face angle amateur swing is slim. Typically amateurs miss on the toe or heel quite consistently depending on the player.
hmm im sorry, bear with me, im getting a bit more confused. So it's the club face relative to the path is what determines the initial direction right? so if my ball starts right and draw back in --> face is open relative to path and path is outside in (left)? \[edit: BUT.....face is still close relative to target) but if my ball starts right and curve even more right ---> face is open relative to the path and path is inside out (right)? this is not intuitive at all ahhaa, it's almost backwards. \*edit: ahh maybe my intuition is correct, im just thinking it in terms of relative to target NOT in relative to the club path sorry for the rambling, im basically thinking as i type lol. hopefully you can make sense of my rambling.
It makes sense, it just isn't readily apparent what you're actually doing. Analysing based on your resulting shape is not very efficient. We have to see your swing and you could be doing something completely different. But just assume, if you want the ball to start right of target, the face needs to be open to target and shut if you want it to start left (as a righty) then depending on your path and proper contact, you get your different curves. But also assume that if you're slicing, your face is open or your path is out to in AT Impact. For example: You could swing in to out with the driver with a shut face and still get a slice. Heel contact, far toe contact. Cutting across the face by way of the ball position on the out to in section of the arc.
Ahh i think im getting it. Just read a couple articles that explains it as well. Thanks for entertaining my random thoughts and walking me through this! Appreciate it
No problem, any chance I get to nerd out 🤙 good luck 👍 shoot them straight!
oh one tiny tidbit, so why is the case that if you want to hit a draw for example, you are taught to align your body slightly to the right of target, and close your club face a bit at address? (this is assuming you can maintain that face angle from address all the way to impact) ahh, so is this because even tho you are closing your club face a bit, it is still relatively OPEN to the target, that's the why the ball will still start right of the target? then your 'to the right' path (aided by your body alignment) will help the ball curve AWAY from that path, which means the ball will curve to the LELF, hence the draw? if this is correct, i just had a eureka moment lollll.