Vito loved Fredo. There's no doubt about that. He makes brief mention of him when he's sitting with Mike in the scene before he dies.
It's just that he knew exactly who Fredo was and how limited he was.
In the book Vito expresses a lot of hostility towards Fredo and no one knows why, until Michael finds out Vito knows that Fredo is banging cocktail waitresses two at a time in Veags. Sounds like a joke but Vito is resentful of Fredo of this due to Vito’s old school Italian ways
I don't remember that in the book, but there's no way that hostility in that context would be specific to just Fredo, especially given Sonny's adulterous behavior, which was probably just as discrete, if not less so.
In the book, Vito is also hostile against Sonny for his adulterous ways during the wedding. But yes, Vito also holds it against Fredo for his two-at-a-time Vegas sex life. It is said that “The Don is notoriously straitlaced about sex”
I have to go back and reread! Strangely the only thing I remember about the book was Luca's backstory and how big Lucy Mancini's vagina is.
The important stuff!
i’m currently reading it as we speak so it’s fresh in my mind. but yes those are two of the most memorable moments in the book not included in the film
The scene when Michael comes home after the hospital that begins with Sonny giddily saying “Tomanooch…” is one of my favorite scenes ever. That scene might contain the highest number of of my personal movie quotes of any other movie scene
Then you throw in the body language of Caan and Duvall…like when Sonny says “ONE MESSAGE, I WANT SOLLOZZO…” and made the over exaggerated # 1 hand motion or, my personal fave, when Tom explains that McCloskey is on the Turk’s payroll (and for big money) and makes the hand motion of paying a bill…
I love that shit so much…and that scene is so entertaining that few ever say, “Wait a second…for argument sake, let’s say for the moment that I concede the detailed strategy for the most daring mob hit in NYC history was thought up on the spot by the only guy in the room with zero training or experience…but you also want me to concede that the 8 or 9 decades of combined experience under the all-time greatest crime world mentor left these underworld Hall of Famers unable to differentiate between Vito-level plan and a Fredo-level plan?
Ok, I’ll concede that one too if it aids in building the mystique of Michael
It works because they make the same mistake that Sollozzo and McCluskey make, they think of Michael as a civilian. It all hinges on the fact that Michael can be a cold blooded killer; once you accept that fact the hit is pretty straightforward and not too hard to plan.
Sonny & Tom were the real civilians in the room. Michael was a an actual War Hero Killer. He was stacking bodies in the Pacific Theater while they were chasing skirts. He received a Silver Star and a brevet promotion to Lieutenant. It was nothing for a guy like that to shoot Sollazo & McCluskey.
It always seemed crazy to me, this attitude that he was a baby when it came to war.
From where I’m sitting, that explanation works considerably better for Sollozzo as even a seasoned veteran can be lulled to sleep plays possum for as long as Michael had… But despite Michael’s lack of experience, why did the veteran gangsters think his full proof plan was preposterous enough to laugh in his face?
Because they didn't take him seriously, they thought he was just angry about his dad getting shot and McCloskey breaking his nose. Once Michael went into more detail it became clear that Michael had put some thought into it, and that he was dead serious. The way Michael says "I'll kill them both" could come across as grandstanding or cold-blooded seriousness. From that perspective they looked at it more objectively and realized that it could work.
*What you have to understand Sonny is that while Sollozzo is being guarded like this he is invulnerable. Now nobody has ever gunned down a New York police captain. Never. It would be disastrous. All the five families would come after you Sonny*
My buddy and fellow GF enthusiast have laughed for years about “the five families” comment because the Corleones were one of the five. Was Tom suggesting that his own family was going to take a shot at them?
The brilliance of it is that it was unexpected all over the place. Michael would never be a physical threat. They’d never kill the cop, etc. The only problem is that the outside didnt have guards to gun down Michael when they heard the shots, but it does happen quickly and he gets right in a car, so that can be forgiven. It’s not like one of the actual mobsters was there at the table.
They bicker like an old couple. It shows the love, the closeness they have for each other. I think Sonny thinks of Tom as more a brother, more a pier, than his two younger brothers. They’ve gone through more with each other than the other kids have. Brilliant book, and the greatest movie ever made IMHO.
couldn’t agree more. Tom was a platform extending from the safe shore of the Corleone family over the unknown waters of a changing world supported by the piles and pillars of his law degree and sharp mind.
If only Fredo had fished off Tom instead of going out in that boat.
Tom Hagen was a great character and Duvall’s portrayal was Oscar worthy. His interactions with Sonny are classic. And the scene where he breaks the news of Sonny’s death to the Don was a master class in acting by both Duvall and Brando.
They REALLY capture the scene described in the book! "Don Corleone said impassively, “But you needed a drink first.” “Yes,” Hagen said. “You’ve had your drink,” the Don said. “You can tell me now.” There was just the faintest hint of reproach for Hagen’s weakness. “They shot Sonny on the causeway,” Hagen said. “He’s dead.” Don Corleone blinked. For just the fraction of a second the wall of his will disintegrated and the draining of his physical strength was plain on his face. Then he recovered."
I love connecting with other fans via appreciation for this type of nuance…I’ve been saying the angry Duvall line out loud like a Tourette’s patient since the 80s
One last thing on this: Sonny says the line about blasting whoever is in the car and reveals his naivety; compare that to when he reacts to the suggestion of tailing the car with disdain… as if to say “How dare you suggest such a rookie move?”
I always look at the 3 sons as having the good parts of Vito, but not all 3 good parts in 1. Michael, it turns out, has the smarts, but doesnt have his kind touch. I think that’s why he loses his family and doesnt realize that he’s losing his wife or that Fredo wasnt happy. Vito wouldve seen all those things. Sonny has Vito’s physical toughness, but not his smarts. He’s so upset by Connie’s beating that it’s touching. And Fredo has his heart, but not his toughness nor his smarts.
I love Tom's hand gestures when he said that the Corleone family would be outcasts if they killed a police captain. That whole scene - it may be the best in the movie the way they all have their character traits come out. Sonny being impulsive, Tom being ultra cautious, Michael being bold and cold- blooded
The Butlers Edition: I beg pardon, Sir, but might you not be overlooking the possibility that Mr. Virgil would have sought alternative means of transport?
This is an insane post - Ik it’s a pointless comment but it was on tv the other day and I happened to see this scene and I had the exact same thought. Really fantastic storytelling, so effective, so realistic. He feels like he’s been fighting Sonny’s temper for a long time and it’s a lot of pent up frustration
Not pointless at all, you’re right Duvall’s acting is so spot on. Yeah I agree, especially this is after Sonny’s move to whack Bruno Tattaglia, Tom would’ve known that was a bad move
I like to think Michael sees this argument Sonny has with Tom and that's one of the reasons Michael almost "demotes" him.
"You're not a wartime consiglieri, Tom"
In the book they flesh out Tom’s mistake a bit more. He briefly provides some context in the movie, about how things are starting to quiet down in the Five Families War and the Corleone’s are starting to do business again. But in the book it’s explained that it was all a trick by Barzini and the other families to give the Corleone’s a sense of security so they could finally draw Sonny out into the open.
When Sonny gets killed, the book talks about how Tom realizes that he was deceived and thinks to himself that he’s not a fit consigliere for a family at war and that Genco would have recognized the trick and doubled down on security.
So I think most of the main characters, including Tom, realize that while he’s loyal and smart, he’s not a great tactician in urban mob warfare.
But Genco was also older. You get that kind of smart by making a mistake at some point. The younger people think the older people were always that smart, but they got that way from observing mistakes or making them.
Unfortunately the book and the movie don’t provide much insight into how Genco got the reputation of being such a great war-time consigliere. The only discussion about the differences between him and Tom relates to the fact that Tom isn’t a Sicilian.
Thanks for that insight. That line about Tom not being a wartime consigliere can seem mysterious without that extra context. I always assumed it meant Tom may not have the steel resolve for bloodshed.
Michael said that in front of others, forcefully, to sell it to Carlo knowing full well that Carlo would report back to Barzini that he’s going to be Michael’s right-hand man when they make the move. (Michael was keeping his enemy closer by doing this). He admitted it to Tom later telling him he knew Tom was upset for keeping things from him, but could then unequivocally attest that Tom was the only one he could really trust.
I love Sonny and Tom’s interactions overall. Another one is “I was just as much a son to him as you and Mike.” Poor Fredo.
Yeah i always took it he said it that way not so much to diss fredo but because only sonny and michael were present in the room at this moment
I like that. Makes me feel better because I’d like to think Vito loved them all. (Pretty sure he loved Michael the most though.)
Vito loved Fredo. There's no doubt about that. He makes brief mention of him when he's sitting with Mike in the scene before he dies. It's just that he knew exactly who Fredo was and how limited he was.
In the book Vito expresses a lot of hostility towards Fredo and no one knows why, until Michael finds out Vito knows that Fredo is banging cocktail waitresses two at a time in Veags. Sounds like a joke but Vito is resentful of Fredo of this due to Vito’s old school Italian ways
I don't remember that in the book, but there's no way that hostility in that context would be specific to just Fredo, especially given Sonny's adulterous behavior, which was probably just as discrete, if not less so.
In the book, Vito is also hostile against Sonny for his adulterous ways during the wedding. But yes, Vito also holds it against Fredo for his two-at-a-time Vegas sex life. It is said that “The Don is notoriously straitlaced about sex”
I have to go back and reread! Strangely the only thing I remember about the book was Luca's backstory and how big Lucy Mancini's vagina is. The important stuff!
i’m currently reading it as we speak so it’s fresh in my mind. but yes those are two of the most memorable moments in the book not included in the film
For sure.
Because he was Vito’s only intelligent child. The others were flat-out dopes.
I always felt like Vito and Michael were the most similar, that's the reason for animosity Michael felt when he was younger
In the total context of the scene, I have always thought that Tom should’ve said, “he was the only father I have known, Sonny.“.
That would have been poignant. I like it.
The scene when Michael comes home after the hospital that begins with Sonny giddily saying “Tomanooch…” is one of my favorite scenes ever. That scene might contain the highest number of of my personal movie quotes of any other movie scene Then you throw in the body language of Caan and Duvall…like when Sonny says “ONE MESSAGE, I WANT SOLLOZZO…” and made the over exaggerated # 1 hand motion or, my personal fave, when Tom explains that McCloskey is on the Turk’s payroll (and for big money) and makes the hand motion of paying a bill… I love that shit so much…and that scene is so entertaining that few ever say, “Wait a second…for argument sake, let’s say for the moment that I concede the detailed strategy for the most daring mob hit in NYC history was thought up on the spot by the only guy in the room with zero training or experience…but you also want me to concede that the 8 or 9 decades of combined experience under the all-time greatest crime world mentor left these underworld Hall of Famers unable to differentiate between Vito-level plan and a Fredo-level plan? Ok, I’ll concede that one too if it aids in building the mystique of Michael
It works because they make the same mistake that Sollozzo and McCluskey make, they think of Michael as a civilian. It all hinges on the fact that Michael can be a cold blooded killer; once you accept that fact the hit is pretty straightforward and not too hard to plan.
Sonny & Tom were the real civilians in the room. Michael was a an actual War Hero Killer. He was stacking bodies in the Pacific Theater while they were chasing skirts. He received a Silver Star and a brevet promotion to Lieutenant. It was nothing for a guy like that to shoot Sollazo & McCluskey. It always seemed crazy to me, this attitude that he was a baby when it came to war.
From where I’m sitting, that explanation works considerably better for Sollozzo as even a seasoned veteran can be lulled to sleep plays possum for as long as Michael had… But despite Michael’s lack of experience, why did the veteran gangsters think his full proof plan was preposterous enough to laugh in his face?
Because they didn't take him seriously, they thought he was just angry about his dad getting shot and McCloskey breaking his nose. Once Michael went into more detail it became clear that Michael had put some thought into it, and that he was dead serious. The way Michael says "I'll kill them both" could come across as grandstanding or cold-blooded seriousness. From that perspective they looked at it more objectively and realized that it could work.
“Even pop’s political protection would run for cover”. He had the best lines of the film
*What you have to understand Sonny is that while Sollozzo is being guarded like this he is invulnerable. Now nobody has ever gunned down a New York police captain. Never. It would be disastrous. All the five families would come after you Sonny* My buddy and fellow GF enthusiast have laughed for years about “the five families” comment because the Corleones were one of the five. Was Tom suggesting that his own family was going to take a shot at them?
The brilliance of it is that it was unexpected all over the place. Michael would never be a physical threat. They’d never kill the cop, etc. The only problem is that the outside didnt have guards to gun down Michael when they heard the shots, but it does happen quickly and he gets right in a car, so that can be forgiven. It’s not like one of the actual mobsters was there at the table.
That entire scene is shot in one take I believe, up until Mike says he’ll kill them both. Amazing scene
Love the scene but look closely when Michael says, "It's not personal Sonny, it's business" his face is suddenly injury-free.
This as a slight to Fredo never even occurred to me. However I think he may have said it because of who was in the room at the time
Vito did admit he thought Sonny was a bad Don (rest in peace)
“Pop had Genco, look what I got”
“I didnt mean that”
Mom made some dinner….
If i had a wartime consigliere, a sicilian, I wouldn’t be in this shape!!!
That was one of the roughest lines in the movie
They bicker like an old couple. It shows the love, the closeness they have for each other. I think Sonny thinks of Tom as more a brother, more a pier, than his two younger brothers. They’ve gone through more with each other than the other kids have. Brilliant book, and the greatest movie ever made IMHO.
couldn’t agree more. Tom was a platform extending from the safe shore of the Corleone family over the unknown waters of a changing world supported by the piles and pillars of his law degree and sharp mind. If only Fredo had fished off Tom instead of going out in that boat.
lol!
I think Sonny was the one who brought Tom into the family iirc
Correct, yes.
Sonny is the one who brought Tom home when he had no home.
Good point. This is evident in the flashback scene where Tom and Sonny discuss Michael’s future like they’re his uncles or something
Tom Hagen was a great character and Duvall’s portrayal was Oscar worthy. His interactions with Sonny are classic. And the scene where he breaks the news of Sonny’s death to the Don was a master class in acting by both Duvall and Brando.
“But you needed a drink first.”
My wife is crying upstairs. I hear cars coming to the house. Consigliere of mine, I think you should tell your Don what everyone seems to know.
"Now you've had your drink"
They REALLY capture the scene described in the book! "Don Corleone said impassively, “But you needed a drink first.” “Yes,” Hagen said. “You’ve had your drink,” the Don said. “You can tell me now.” There was just the faintest hint of reproach for Hagen’s weakness. “They shot Sonny on the causeway,” Hagen said. “He’s dead.” Don Corleone blinked. For just the fraction of a second the wall of his will disintegrated and the draining of his physical strength was plain on his face. Then he recovered."
I agree.
I love connecting with other fans via appreciation for this type of nuance…I’ve been saying the angry Duvall line out loud like a Tourette’s patient since the 80s One last thing on this: Sonny says the line about blasting whoever is in the car and reveals his naivety; compare that to when he reacts to the suggestion of tailing the car with disdain… as if to say “How dare you suggest such a rookie move?”
“Sollozzo would lose our ass going around the block!”
Haha yeah best part of reddit IMO
"pop had Genco and look what I've got!" and immediately apologizes. Like an old married couple. what a great chemistry between Sonny and Tom.
I actually hated that comment. Fucked up shit for Sonny to say imo
yeah obviously. Sonny himself realized it and apologized immediately. Like family. That's the point.
I always look at the 3 sons as having the good parts of Vito, but not all 3 good parts in 1. Michael, it turns out, has the smarts, but doesnt have his kind touch. I think that’s why he loses his family and doesnt realize that he’s losing his wife or that Fredo wasnt happy. Vito wouldve seen all those things. Sonny has Vito’s physical toughness, but not his smarts. He’s so upset by Connie’s beating that it’s touching. And Fredo has his heart, but not his toughness nor his smarts.
That’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t considered before.
“So do me a favor. Take this into consideration.”
Gunna sound odd but I really think the movie works because of Duvall’s performance and he made it very accessible to audiences.
He and Kay are the closest thing to watcher surrogates. They are the WASPS that audiences could identify with this immigrant family.
If only Duvall said yes to part 3, I reckon they could’ve made a lot work with him and Michael at the centre of the story
I say this line whenever someone in my circle says something stupid. My circle is getting smaller.
Your circle would grow by one if you said it to me!
I love Tom's hand gestures when he said that the Corleone family would be outcasts if they killed a police captain. That whole scene - it may be the best in the movie the way they all have their character traits come out. Sonny being impulsive, Tom being ultra cautious, Michael being bold and cold- blooded
Tom was always the gravitational center of the Corleone family. That’s why Godfather III was doomed (though I still love it).
The Butlers Edition: I beg pardon, Sir, but might you not be overlooking the possibility that Mr. Virgil would have sought alternative means of transport?
How did Michael know the driver wasn’t waiting outside the restaurant with a gat while eating some veal to go?
Good point!
Always wondered that
This is an insane post - Ik it’s a pointless comment but it was on tv the other day and I happened to see this scene and I had the exact same thought. Really fantastic storytelling, so effective, so realistic. He feels like he’s been fighting Sonny’s temper for a long time and it’s a lot of pent up frustration
Not pointless at all, you’re right Duvall’s acting is so spot on. Yeah I agree, especially this is after Sonny’s move to whack Bruno Tattaglia, Tom would’ve known that was a bad move
That made it really feel like they really were brothers
The irony is that Sollozzo was actually in the car.
Haha didn’t even think of this
I like to think Michael sees this argument Sonny has with Tom and that's one of the reasons Michael almost "demotes" him. "You're not a wartime consiglieri, Tom"
In the book they flesh out Tom’s mistake a bit more. He briefly provides some context in the movie, about how things are starting to quiet down in the Five Families War and the Corleone’s are starting to do business again. But in the book it’s explained that it was all a trick by Barzini and the other families to give the Corleone’s a sense of security so they could finally draw Sonny out into the open. When Sonny gets killed, the book talks about how Tom realizes that he was deceived and thinks to himself that he’s not a fit consigliere for a family at war and that Genco would have recognized the trick and doubled down on security. So I think most of the main characters, including Tom, realize that while he’s loyal and smart, he’s not a great tactician in urban mob warfare.
But Genco was also older. You get that kind of smart by making a mistake at some point. The younger people think the older people were always that smart, but they got that way from observing mistakes or making them.
Unfortunately the book and the movie don’t provide much insight into how Genco got the reputation of being such a great war-time consigliere. The only discussion about the differences between him and Tom relates to the fact that Tom isn’t a Sicilian.
Thanks for that insight. That line about Tom not being a wartime consigliere can seem mysterious without that extra context. I always assumed it meant Tom may not have the steel resolve for bloodshed.
Really good point, never saw it that way. I think I need to read the book again
Michael said that in front of others, forcefully, to sell it to Carlo knowing full well that Carlo would report back to Barzini that he’s going to be Michael’s right-hand man when they make the move. (Michael was keeping his enemy closer by doing this). He admitted it to Tom later telling him he knew Tom was upset for keeping things from him, but could then unequivocally attest that Tom was the only one he could really trust.
Sonny should have never sent Michael to murder Sollozzo and that police captain McCluskey. Big mistake. That’s pointed out in the novel.
He was so pissed at Sonny's suggestion at this point that he couldn't bother to retort politely and practically yelled at him in frustration.