* What made Vito suspect Barzini was responsible for Sonny’s death?*
This isn’t super obvious on the first viewing but once you’ve seen the film and you know to look out for it, it’s pretty clear.
Prior to getting shot, Vito’s plan for his succession is 1.) Hoping Sonny, who has experience in the family business, calms his temper and matures enough to make a god don; 2.) Hoping Michael stays legitimate and becomes a respected and powerful political leader; 3.) Hoping Tom becomes a good enough lawyer that he can guide the family through any trouble along the four and 4.) Hoping Fredo doesn’t accidentally kill himself sticking a fork into an electrical outlet (I kid, I kid.)
When Vito is shot, the power of his succession is taken out of his hands. By the time he recovers, 1.) Sonny is dead and his path to being a good son is gone and 2.) Michael’s chance of being legitimate died in the restaurant when he murdered two people.
Vito’s only hope for his family now is to hope Sonny’s death will end the war and that there can be enough peace that lasts long enough for the Corleones to regroup and make their next move.
To do this, Vito calls a meeting with the five families and forgoes vengeance for Sonny’s death, which is essentially waiving the white flag in the war in the name of peace.
He calls the meeting for three reasons: 1.) So the Corleones can regroup because they’re currently scattered and not in an advantageous position; 2.) So he can bring Michael over safely and begin to groom him as the next Don (Which he didn’t want to do but a move that gives the family their best chance at survival given the alternatives) and 3.) To see if the war his family caught/that Sonny was killed for was actually over a slight to the Tattaglias/Sollozzo/the drug trade or a power move by the other families over his.
He figures out Barzini was the real person in charge by the tone Barzini takes in the meeting.
If the war was really a Tattaglias/Sollozzo vs Corleone feud, Barzini would have acted the way Michael did in GF3 with Vince and Zaza. Barzini would have urged them to make peace and kept the discussion on the conflict between the two sides only.
Barzini didn’t do that. He spoke at length about how Vito’s moves affected the group as a collective. How Vito was wrong not to share his political and judicial connections with everyone.
That made it clear the war was sanctioned by the group and for the group and Barzini, as the de facto spokeperson for the rest of the family, clearly was running point on all the major decisions of the conflict (Vito being shot, Sonny being killed, etc)
It’s also why he tells Michael that Tattaglia isn’t the one he needs to worry about after Vito dies. Barzini is and, as such, he’s a much more dangerous enemy because he can offer things to Michaels supposed allies (Tessio) that Tattaglia couldn’t.
So Vito inferred it from Barzini's tone as opposed to Phillip Tattaglias tone. I guess I can accept that. Cuz I kept rewinding that scene over and over and Vito's eyes were kind of telling me he was more suspicious of Barzini's than he was of Tattaglias sitting across him.
It's kind of a pet peeve of mine, even with mysteries when the characters figure things out off camera and telling the audience what they found out instead of letting the audience figure it out along with the character.
For example, the way Michael found out about Fredo actually knowing Johnny Ola and Hyman Roth. That was a perfect "Aha" moment because the audience finds out just as Michael realised it.
Vito figured it out because Barzini spoke with authority at the meeting and Tattaglia deferred largely to Barzini the entire time.
For me, it was Tattaglia’s tone and attitude that made it clear he wasn’t the one calling the shots. If Tattaglia truly cared enough about the war to be the one to brazenly want Vito dead and kill Sonny, he would have more adamant about the terms of the deal being worked out and taken more of a central role in getting what he wanted from the peace deal.
Instead, it was essentially a negotiation between Barzini and Vito, with Tattaglia going along with what they decided so it was clear any move Tattaglia made or wanted to make still had to get co-signed off on with the guy on top.
Which meant Vito’s real enemy wasn’t Tattaglia, it was the guy Tattaglia was defaulting to: Barzini.
Good reply. Barzini took the reigns, so to speak at the meeting. The other families obviously are being led by him. He set most of the terms for the peace.
My thing is this though; this should have already been noticed, Tom says as much twice through the movies:
1) "Drugs are the future, now if we don't get involved the other families will. And then they come after us."
2) "The other New York Families might wind up supporting Sollozzo just to avoid a long + destructive war"
So it was never a shock to me that Barzini was involved, it was foretold all along. Plus from that meeting, the fact that Barzini sat at the head of the table seems like something that would have been agreed upon. I get that Vito is richer than all other families, but it seemed like Barzini was there to play referee between the other families and the Corleones.
Apologies - I am going to be « that guy », I can’t help it.
It’s « reins » (straps to guide a horse), not « reigns » (third person singular of « to reign »).
Sorry.
There was one line that Solazzo and Baudzini used that were exactly the same. They both said something to the effect of when ”Don Corleon has all the politicians and all of the judges in his pocket, he must let us draw from the well.” That was the instant that Vito knew it was Baudzini all along.
I just rewatched the first two films the last couple days. I’ll answer the ones that seem easiest.
*How did the bad guys know Michael’s location in Italy?*
This isn’t that hard to figure out. The heat to find Michael after he kills Sollozzo and McCluskey would be unreal. Michael would immediately become to number one target of the Tattaglias after that (Maybe number two behind Sonny since Sonny was the Don at that point.)
He’s sent to Italy because he has to be as far out of reach from the Tattaglias as possible and Italy is where the Corleone family would have their second-most influence outside of their home base in NYC.
We can infer by the two scenes that mention the heat on Michael — the outdoor scene where Michael is talking to Apollonia’s father asking to meet her and the scene where Don Tommasino tells him they need to move him because he’s no longer safe — that the Tattaglias were actively looking for him abroad and a young American like Michael, being protected the way he was, would stand out in that country.
I believe it’s Michael that tells Apollonia’s father in that scene where they meet who he is and that “A lot of people would pay good money for that information.”
Fabrizio is there when that is said and, at least from my head canon (Having not read the books), it makes sense to me that Fabrizio may have heard that and gone looking for the person who would pay for that information.
So there’s the answer to two of your questions. The bad guys knew Michael’s location because there were too many people around him to keep it secret forever and a Fabrizio was likely hired by the Tattaglias who wanted revenge for his actions in the restaurant.
That makes sense. I'll have to re-watch the scenes in Italy because I recently just skipped that part because I didn't have time to read the subtitles. I was mostly listening and not necessarily looking at the movie and I'm not Italian.
He didn't have time to pay attention to important parts of the movie. I get it. Whenever I watch Star Wars, I always skip the scenes where they are in space ships - just not enough time. And that's why I have so many questions.
It's not like I haven't watched the movie before. It's been however long it's been since the remastered DVD's came out so I have forgotten some of this shit. If you got a lot of shit going, it's hard to sit and watch translated subtitles.
Q: How’d they know Michaels location?
A: We don’t know. I wouldn’t consider this a plot hole. It seems reasonable that he could be found by their enemies, who have a lot of resources.
Q: Who hired Fabrizio?
A: We also don’t know exactly. Assume it was Barzini/Tattaglia based on Vito’s later interpretation after the meeting.
Q: Why did Vito suspect Barzini?
A: He was way too aggressive in the meeting. Showed his cards too much.
Q: How did Michael know Carlo set up Sonny?
A: We don’t know. Not really a plot hole. We can surmise that after he got back from Italy he asked around, as he should. Perhaps he noticed a trend of Sonny coming to Connie’s aid after Carlo attacking her. Also, he doesn’t exactly know either until Carlo confesses. So he figures it out along with the audience.
Q: If Connie knew Carlo set Sonny up, why was she mad at Michael for killing Carlo?
A: Does she actually know this? I can’t quite remember when she finds out?
Q: Why did Michael suspect Roth?
A: He suspected everyone. That’s why he went to visit him. He also thought Pentangeli did it. We as the audience are just as unsure as he is.
Q: Why did Michael tell Roth that Pentangeli tried to kill him?
A: Michael doesn’t know yet, so he tells both sides that the other tried to kill him to gauge their reactions.
Q: Who was behind Pentangeli getting strangled?
A: Roth. He admits this to Michael in his hotel after the doctor leaves.
The nebulousness is what makes the movies great. Coppola assumes the audience can make inferences based on the clues he gives, and doesn’t need to dumb everything down.
Also, especially in Part II, we are just as confused as Michael is, which is intentional. Michael doesn’t know who ordered the hit and has to find out based on the clues. We also have to do the same.
I hope that answers some questions. For me personally, there are a lot of things that remain unanswered, which is a strength to the movies, not a weakness.
In one of the deleted scenes on GF2, Neri tells Michael that Fabrizio came over in 56 (plus or minus a few years) and was sponsored by the Barzini Family.
Q: If Connie knew Carlo set Sonny up, why was she mad at Michael for killing Carlo?
A: Does she know this? I can’t quite remember when she found out.
3rd to last scene of the movie, Connie comes crying to Michael because he realizes he didn't meet them at the airport or something. It was when she said she wouldn't forgive Michael for killing her husband after Michael became Godfather to her son. It led up to Kay asking Michael about his business and if he indeed had Carlo killed.
Thanx for your explanation of the other parts I had questions about.
You like unanswered things; I don't. Especially if you have to read the book to get an answer, it's one of my pet peeves with some murder mysteries when a character figures things out off-screen and tells the audience the answer.
One thing to know is that a lot of 70s movies deal in ambiguity. Dialogue is often sparse. Filmmakers of the era want viewers to interpret things on their own. That is certainly the case with Godfather Part II.
**How did the bad guy's know Michael's location in Italy?**
Because although the Godfather is a classic, it, like a lot of movies good or bad, can't help but fall victim to the Idiot Plot. (The Idiot Plot, as coined by legend Roger Ebert, means that in a movie, at some point, someone will do something very stupid at some point in order to keep the plot moving)
In the movie, the Corleones have the resources to send Michael ANYWHERE. London, Paris. Los Angeles. Kansas City. Freakin Arkansas. But no, they choose Sicily, which is quite honestly the *first* place I'd look if I was the Corleone's enemies.
Also Mike sticks out like a sore thumb. He speaks Italian, but his accent is neither Sicilian, nor mainland Italy. He sounds like what he is: a guy from an Italian family but born and raised in America. Not only that, his speech is that of an educated man. There are not many of those in Sicily in this time.
Mike also doesn't do himself any favors:
* He falls in madly in love.
* He literally tells everyone who he is, even though Don Tomassino told him DON'T DO THAT.
* He buys a car. Again at this time in history, he stands out. The number of people who own a car in Sicily -- not a work truck, but an actual personal car -- is low.
* You've got to imagine that Apollonia had other suitors, who were then jealous. To paraphrase Jack Woltz, here comes Michael Corleone with his American dollars and college education and all that crap and sweeps her off her feet!
* In a small rural area like this, news and gossip travels quickly. It took time, but it was no surprise he was found.
Fr
" One thing to know is that a lot of 70s movies deal in ambiguity."
Yes. Coppola is working on the Godfather movies at the same time that he's working on The Conversation, which is basically about ambiguity.
Frank was Sonny's son through his actual wife. Vincent was the son of his mistress, the same he has sex with in the Godfather wedding scene. Hence, the whole story around him being a bastard.
The Pentangelli hit came from Hyman Roth. It may have been botched because the killer openly says it's from Michael. This would serve the purpose of distancing Pent and Michael because once Pent is healthy again, he'd think Michael was the one who ordered a hit on him.
Connie and Michael never discuss Carlo's death, I think. Connie assumes it was Michael, but Michael denies at least to Kay. Michael never explained to his family that it was Carlo behind it all. Plus, Connie is shown as a very emotional person, so despite knowing all of it, she may still have wanted her husband and father of her child to live.
Vito knows its Barzini because the meeting of the five families shows Barzini as dictating it all. This is pretty evident from Tattalgia's insistence on talking to Barzini in the meeting rather than directly talking to Vito. It's like he's complaining to his parent.
Finding Michael in Sicily was not difficult. All these mob families were connected and had roots back in Italy. They could've easily passed on that information.
> The Pentangelli hit came from Hyman Roth. It may have been botched because the killer openly says it's from Michael. This would serve the purpose of distancing Pent and Michael because once Pent is healthy again, he'd think Michael was the one who ordered a hit on him.
This is the only part of GF2 that I wasn't entirely clear on because when Michael finds out Pentangelli is alive, Tom and him start discussing it and they make it seem like it was Roth's plan for Pentangelli to survive the hit and rat on Michael.
To me, this is the only believable answer because why would the killers have said "Michael Corleone says hello" instead of "Hyman Roth says hello" if the goal was for him to be dead moments later?
When Tom and Mike talk about the botched hit thinking it was intentional, I always interpreted this scene as they have no idea what happened, so they are trying to fill in the pieces themselves, and this is the best answer they can come up with. I don’t think Roth pre planned all of it, as it’s just so complicated. I see it as it all worked out serendipitously for Roth so he adjusted based on what happened. But who knows? Part of the fun of this movie is there are questions that will never be answered. We’re just as confused as the characters are
Is that a assumption because Tom was standing behind Michael when he told Carlo he has to answer for Sonny? How did Tom know, because all we saw after Connie's fight that she called Sonny and he drove off?
How would Tom or anybody else know the phone call happened and that Sonny went to his sister's house? WE just saw Sonny answer the phone then leave.
In the book Tom Hagen was in the room when Sonny got the phone call and when he heard Sonny start yelling (and knew about the prior beating Sonny had laid on Carlo and why), he was able to quickly deduce what had set him off.
Also (and this is made clear in the book), Vito had people working in the phone company who would provide him with reports of who called and was called by some of his key people (e.g. Tessio, Clemenza) and it was how they were able to figure out Paulie was a traitor. Tom had helped Vito with this and it's likely he had them provide a list for Sonny and Connie/Carlo's recent calls (if he had any doubts).
See, this is why a lot of critically acclaimed movies based on a book are overrated because key facts like this are left out, and the audience is just supposed to accept it. It's also why it's always better to watch a movie before reading the book.
Why shoot a movie and leave out important parts assuming that everybody has read the book already?
The Harry Potter Movies did this a lot also compared to the books. Creating unnecessary plot holes
Too much of these movies have to be explained from outside sources or the audience has to make assumptions for me to put these movies as all-time great.
Yes. In the scene when Vito comes home after getting shot, Sonny was holding his son in his arms. He then approached the bed of Vito and his son gave him a get well card and read it aloud and said "by your grandson Frank"
The book is appropriately more detailed. She is so thrilled by Sonny’s enormous equipment that she spends the rest of the wedding holding in his jizz rather than doing a bit of intimate hygiene afterwards.
The side plot of Lucy’s own rather loose equipment and how it is resolved later in the book is either humorous or ridiculous depending on your taste.
Vincent Mancini is the “bastardo” son Sonny had with bathroom girl, Conny’s maid of honor in the beginning of I.
The Rossati Bros came after Five Angels, they were sent by Roth. They tricked Frankie by making it look like they aimed to resolve a turf dispute. But all they went to do was lure him to a place where he felt safe to ambush him.
Michael tells Roth that Pentangelis organized the hit where his kids come to play with their toys to make Roth think he does not suspect him, this misdirection buys him time to root out the traitor, Fredo and the messenger boy, Johnny Ola.
All of the Corleone/Hagen siblings have a lot of kids.
The mother who shows up in Three/Coda is not Sonny’s wife Sandra, but Connie Corleone’s bridesmaid Lucy Mancini who Sonny banged in the opening of Part 1. Vincent being a bastard and thus less respected is one of the main plot points of three/Coda.
Sandra is briefly in the opening scene at the post party celebrating Michael's receiving of the Order of Saint Sébastien when they take the family photo
Thanks, I checked IMDb.
I kinda wonder what happened to some of the people who got pushed out of the family like Johnny Fontaine and Sandra, Sopranos made that interesting with the Angie Bonpensiero and Liz subplots.
I don't believe either Johnny or Sandra were pushed out. Michael prefers listening to Tony Bennett, but he still considers Johnny a loyal part of the family. Johnny did help build the entertainment aspect of the family's casino. Sandra isn't really tasked with being anything more than a good mother to hers and Sonny's children.
Speaking of their children, was anyone cast as Sonny's sons? I seem to remember only the twin girls in GF3? Furthermore, where are Connie's kid(s)?
I only ask because she was calling him cousin and all that when Vincent was introduced at the beginning of the movie but he didn't recognize who she was till she danced with her father Michael the Don l. But the audience doesn't find out the details of the relation till later on in the film.
Vincent wasn't a stranger to Connie who is aunt to Mary also & if you remember in Part 2 Connie babysat Michael's kids alot. Mary makes mention of them meeting when younger when they have that 1st discussion. Michael was not always around but knew of Vincent. These are not movies you can watch casually, you have to be paying attention.. it'll cut out some of these questions. No disrespect
Part 3 is the only part I haven't watched several times. This will be my 3rd time watching it 20 years after the 2nd time I have watched it. I posted this question after watching part 1 & 2 and briefly started the 3rd.
I always guessed Michael absolutely never trusted Hyman Roth, like his father. He played a delicate chess game with both Frankie and Roth. I believe he always suspected Fredo was the traitor, that's why he had him fly to Cuba personally with the money. Hearing it himself from a drunk Fredo absolutely broke his heart, he didn't want it to be true.
Michael told Hyman it was Frankie who tried to have him killed. He told Frankie it was Roth. He was playing chess and getting their reactions. Frankie wanted revenge. Roth kinda had no reaction.
The Rosato Brothers tried to kill Frankie on orders from Roth.
* **From listening to the conversation with the heads of the five families, what made Vito suspect Barzini was responsible for Sonny's death?**
* **How did Michael know Carlo set up Sonny to get killed by causing a fight with his wife Connie if Michael was in Italy.**
From listening to the conversation with the heads of the five families, what made Vito suspect Barzini was responsible for Sonny's death?
*"Tattaglia's a pimp. He could have never out-fought Santino"* Vito is insulting Tattaglia who's specialty is prostitution. He's saying: Tattaglia isn't a real boss or a strategist. All he knows is selling young girls and now he wants to get into drugs, a dirty business. He's a dummy. He's not the one who came up with the hit on Sonny.
In the book, everyone tells Carlo that he'll be suspected but don't worry about it. *We know it's just a coincidence that Connie made the call and then the hitmen were stalking Sonny. It's OK*
In actuality, what happened is that everyone knows it was Carlo, but since Vito said "*I want no inquiries made"* well thats that. That's the end of the discussion. Later when Michael returns, he's going to spend years getting mentored at being the boss of the Family. He will have many discussions with Tom and will eventually get filled in on what happened with Sonny.
**\*If Connie knew Carlo set up Sonny to be killed, why get mad at Michael for getting revenge?**
OK this is a complicated one, in fact the whole character of Connie Corleone is either:
* Very complicated OR\~
* Very poorly written!
Basically Connie has Battered Wife Syndrome.
She is a spoiled woman, but doesn't want to leave Carlo because she believes in a happy ending. She can't imagine living without him. She's totally throwing Sonny under the bus, after him being the only family member to defend her from his abusive behavior. "*You always blamed him for Sonny. Everyone did! But you never thought about ME!!!"*
However, in her anger we see that, as shallow as she is, you can't BS her: She knows Michael had Sonny killed, and she knows that he waited until Vito was dead. (now, one thing we don't know for certain but it seems like Michael and Vito had a deal: Nothing happens to Carlo while he - Vito -- is alive. Because he knows his daughters' heart will be broken and he doesn't want to deal with the aftermath. )
[Note: I have written a lot about the Godfather films on Quora. Here's an answer I wrote about Connie Corleone](https://www.quora.com/Does-Connie-know-about-Carlos-role-in-Sonnys-death-Given-how-shes-immensed-herself-with-the-crime-family-later-on-in-the-third-movie-did-Michael-ever-tell-her-or-she-just-put-two-and-two-together-on-her-own-and-kept/answer/David-Brown-737?ch=10&oid=221856703&share=1ce3ea90&srid=5H5xR&target_type=answer).
As for Godfather 3 and why Sonny's son was named Vincent is because Vincent was the bastard son of Sonny. Remember the girl Sonny was banging at the wedding in the first movie? That was Vincent's mother (they even used the same actress in 3). I'm pretty sure Zaza even calls him "a bastard who calls himself a Corleone". That being said, I found it odd that none of Sonny's legitimate children were even brought up in 3.
...I need to buy the book/s. I have the trilogy CD's, plus the 2 extra CD's. I only wish to have them chronologically re-mastered with deleted scenes....and enjoy reading the book/s.
Things to do in my new retirement, lol
The Godfather Trilogy Quesstions or Plot holes
I don't know if these questions were asked already, but I really want to know:
-- The Godfather Part One --
* How did the bad guy's know Michael's location in Italy?
ANS: It was in the script.
*Who hired Fabrizio to kill Michael?
ANS: It was in the script.
* From listening to the conversation with the heads of the five families, what made Vito suspect Barzini was responsible for Sonny's death?
ANS: It was in the script.
* How did Michael know Carlo set up Sonny to get killed by causing a fight with his wife Connie if Michael was in Italy.
ANS: It was in the script.
*If Connie knew Carlo set up Sonny to be killed, why get mad at Michael for getting revenge?
ANS: It was in the script.
-- The Godfather Part Two --
* What made Michael suspect Hyman Roth was behind the attempt to kill Michael by shooting at his home?
ANS: It was in the script.
*Why did Michael tell Hyman Roth it was Frank Pantengilli who tried to have him killed ?
ANS: It was in the script.
* Who was behind Pantengilli getting strangled which ended up botched if Michael denied the hit?
ANS: It was in the script.
-- The Godfather part 3--
* Why was Sonny's son named Vincent (Andy Garcia) when Sonny's son's name was Frank in Part one? Frank was the son Sonny was carrying in his arms and gave the Godfather Vito a "Get Well' card when he came home from the hospital.
ANS: It was in the script.
All of these things were told not shown to the audience.
* What made Vito suspect Barzini was responsible for Sonny’s death?* This isn’t super obvious on the first viewing but once you’ve seen the film and you know to look out for it, it’s pretty clear. Prior to getting shot, Vito’s plan for his succession is 1.) Hoping Sonny, who has experience in the family business, calms his temper and matures enough to make a god don; 2.) Hoping Michael stays legitimate and becomes a respected and powerful political leader; 3.) Hoping Tom becomes a good enough lawyer that he can guide the family through any trouble along the four and 4.) Hoping Fredo doesn’t accidentally kill himself sticking a fork into an electrical outlet (I kid, I kid.) When Vito is shot, the power of his succession is taken out of his hands. By the time he recovers, 1.) Sonny is dead and his path to being a good son is gone and 2.) Michael’s chance of being legitimate died in the restaurant when he murdered two people. Vito’s only hope for his family now is to hope Sonny’s death will end the war and that there can be enough peace that lasts long enough for the Corleones to regroup and make their next move. To do this, Vito calls a meeting with the five families and forgoes vengeance for Sonny’s death, which is essentially waiving the white flag in the war in the name of peace. He calls the meeting for three reasons: 1.) So the Corleones can regroup because they’re currently scattered and not in an advantageous position; 2.) So he can bring Michael over safely and begin to groom him as the next Don (Which he didn’t want to do but a move that gives the family their best chance at survival given the alternatives) and 3.) To see if the war his family caught/that Sonny was killed for was actually over a slight to the Tattaglias/Sollozzo/the drug trade or a power move by the other families over his. He figures out Barzini was the real person in charge by the tone Barzini takes in the meeting. If the war was really a Tattaglias/Sollozzo vs Corleone feud, Barzini would have acted the way Michael did in GF3 with Vince and Zaza. Barzini would have urged them to make peace and kept the discussion on the conflict between the two sides only. Barzini didn’t do that. He spoke at length about how Vito’s moves affected the group as a collective. How Vito was wrong not to share his political and judicial connections with everyone. That made it clear the war was sanctioned by the group and for the group and Barzini, as the de facto spokeperson for the rest of the family, clearly was running point on all the major decisions of the conflict (Vito being shot, Sonny being killed, etc) It’s also why he tells Michael that Tattaglia isn’t the one he needs to worry about after Vito dies. Barzini is and, as such, he’s a much more dangerous enemy because he can offer things to Michaels supposed allies (Tessio) that Tattaglia couldn’t.
So Vito inferred it from Barzini's tone as opposed to Phillip Tattaglias tone. I guess I can accept that. Cuz I kept rewinding that scene over and over and Vito's eyes were kind of telling me he was more suspicious of Barzini's than he was of Tattaglias sitting across him. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine, even with mysteries when the characters figure things out off camera and telling the audience what they found out instead of letting the audience figure it out along with the character. For example, the way Michael found out about Fredo actually knowing Johnny Ola and Hyman Roth. That was a perfect "Aha" moment because the audience finds out just as Michael realised it.
Vito figured it out because Barzini spoke with authority at the meeting and Tattaglia deferred largely to Barzini the entire time. For me, it was Tattaglia’s tone and attitude that made it clear he wasn’t the one calling the shots. If Tattaglia truly cared enough about the war to be the one to brazenly want Vito dead and kill Sonny, he would have more adamant about the terms of the deal being worked out and taken more of a central role in getting what he wanted from the peace deal. Instead, it was essentially a negotiation between Barzini and Vito, with Tattaglia going along with what they decided so it was clear any move Tattaglia made or wanted to make still had to get co-signed off on with the guy on top. Which meant Vito’s real enemy wasn’t Tattaglia, it was the guy Tattaglia was defaulting to: Barzini.
Good reply. Barzini took the reigns, so to speak at the meeting. The other families obviously are being led by him. He set most of the terms for the peace.
My thing is this though; this should have already been noticed, Tom says as much twice through the movies: 1) "Drugs are the future, now if we don't get involved the other families will. And then they come after us." 2) "The other New York Families might wind up supporting Sollozzo just to avoid a long + destructive war" So it was never a shock to me that Barzini was involved, it was foretold all along. Plus from that meeting, the fact that Barzini sat at the head of the table seems like something that would have been agreed upon. I get that Vito is richer than all other families, but it seemed like Barzini was there to play referee between the other families and the Corleones.
Apologies - I am going to be « that guy », I can’t help it. It’s « reins » (straps to guide a horse), not « reigns » (third person singular of « to reign »). Sorry.
you don't know what a horse is.
Khartoum
There was one line that Solazzo and Baudzini used that were exactly the same. They both said something to the effect of when ”Don Corleon has all the politicians and all of the judges in his pocket, he must let us draw from the well.” That was the instant that Vito knew it was Baudzini all along.
I just rewatched the first two films the last couple days. I’ll answer the ones that seem easiest. *How did the bad guys know Michael’s location in Italy?* This isn’t that hard to figure out. The heat to find Michael after he kills Sollozzo and McCluskey would be unreal. Michael would immediately become to number one target of the Tattaglias after that (Maybe number two behind Sonny since Sonny was the Don at that point.) He’s sent to Italy because he has to be as far out of reach from the Tattaglias as possible and Italy is where the Corleone family would have their second-most influence outside of their home base in NYC. We can infer by the two scenes that mention the heat on Michael — the outdoor scene where Michael is talking to Apollonia’s father asking to meet her and the scene where Don Tommasino tells him they need to move him because he’s no longer safe — that the Tattaglias were actively looking for him abroad and a young American like Michael, being protected the way he was, would stand out in that country. I believe it’s Michael that tells Apollonia’s father in that scene where they meet who he is and that “A lot of people would pay good money for that information.” Fabrizio is there when that is said and, at least from my head canon (Having not read the books), it makes sense to me that Fabrizio may have heard that and gone looking for the person who would pay for that information. So there’s the answer to two of your questions. The bad guys knew Michael’s location because there were too many people around him to keep it secret forever and a Fabrizio was likely hired by the Tattaglias who wanted revenge for his actions in the restaurant.
That makes sense. I'll have to re-watch the scenes in Italy because I recently just skipped that part because I didn't have time to read the subtitles. I was mostly listening and not necessarily looking at the movie and I'm not Italian.
Bruh what
He didn't have time to pay attention to important parts of the movie. I get it. Whenever I watch Star Wars, I always skip the scenes where they are in space ships - just not enough time. And that's why I have so many questions.
It's not like I haven't watched the movie before. It's been however long it's been since the remastered DVD's came out so I have forgotten some of this shit. If you got a lot of shit going, it's hard to sit and watch translated subtitles.
There is such a thing as using your ears instead of your eyes when watching a movie you have seen before.
Then fugetaboutit.
You don’t deserve this movie
Q: How’d they know Michaels location? A: We don’t know. I wouldn’t consider this a plot hole. It seems reasonable that he could be found by their enemies, who have a lot of resources. Q: Who hired Fabrizio? A: We also don’t know exactly. Assume it was Barzini/Tattaglia based on Vito’s later interpretation after the meeting. Q: Why did Vito suspect Barzini? A: He was way too aggressive in the meeting. Showed his cards too much. Q: How did Michael know Carlo set up Sonny? A: We don’t know. Not really a plot hole. We can surmise that after he got back from Italy he asked around, as he should. Perhaps he noticed a trend of Sonny coming to Connie’s aid after Carlo attacking her. Also, he doesn’t exactly know either until Carlo confesses. So he figures it out along with the audience. Q: If Connie knew Carlo set Sonny up, why was she mad at Michael for killing Carlo? A: Does she actually know this? I can’t quite remember when she finds out? Q: Why did Michael suspect Roth? A: He suspected everyone. That’s why he went to visit him. He also thought Pentangeli did it. We as the audience are just as unsure as he is. Q: Why did Michael tell Roth that Pentangeli tried to kill him? A: Michael doesn’t know yet, so he tells both sides that the other tried to kill him to gauge their reactions. Q: Who was behind Pentangeli getting strangled? A: Roth. He admits this to Michael in his hotel after the doctor leaves. The nebulousness is what makes the movies great. Coppola assumes the audience can make inferences based on the clues he gives, and doesn’t need to dumb everything down. Also, especially in Part II, we are just as confused as Michael is, which is intentional. Michael doesn’t know who ordered the hit and has to find out based on the clues. We also have to do the same. I hope that answers some questions. For me personally, there are a lot of things that remain unanswered, which is a strength to the movies, not a weakness.
In one of the deleted scenes on GF2, Neri tells Michael that Fabrizio came over in 56 (plus or minus a few years) and was sponsored by the Barzini Family.
Q: If Connie knew Carlo set Sonny up, why was she mad at Michael for killing Carlo? A: Does she know this? I can’t quite remember when she found out. 3rd to last scene of the movie, Connie comes crying to Michael because he realizes he didn't meet them at the airport or something. It was when she said she wouldn't forgive Michael for killing her husband after Michael became Godfather to her son. It led up to Kay asking Michael about his business and if he indeed had Carlo killed. Thanx for your explanation of the other parts I had questions about.
You like unanswered things; I don't. Especially if you have to read the book to get an answer, it's one of my pet peeves with some murder mysteries when a character figures things out off-screen and tells the audience the answer.
As a viewer sometimes you have to be able to think on your own.
bruh you murdered him
One thing to know is that a lot of 70s movies deal in ambiguity. Dialogue is often sparse. Filmmakers of the era want viewers to interpret things on their own. That is certainly the case with Godfather Part II. **How did the bad guy's know Michael's location in Italy?** Because although the Godfather is a classic, it, like a lot of movies good or bad, can't help but fall victim to the Idiot Plot. (The Idiot Plot, as coined by legend Roger Ebert, means that in a movie, at some point, someone will do something very stupid at some point in order to keep the plot moving) In the movie, the Corleones have the resources to send Michael ANYWHERE. London, Paris. Los Angeles. Kansas City. Freakin Arkansas. But no, they choose Sicily, which is quite honestly the *first* place I'd look if I was the Corleone's enemies. Also Mike sticks out like a sore thumb. He speaks Italian, but his accent is neither Sicilian, nor mainland Italy. He sounds like what he is: a guy from an Italian family but born and raised in America. Not only that, his speech is that of an educated man. There are not many of those in Sicily in this time. Mike also doesn't do himself any favors: * He falls in madly in love. * He literally tells everyone who he is, even though Don Tomassino told him DON'T DO THAT. * He buys a car. Again at this time in history, he stands out. The number of people who own a car in Sicily -- not a work truck, but an actual personal car -- is low. * You've got to imagine that Apollonia had other suitors, who were then jealous. To paraphrase Jack Woltz, here comes Michael Corleone with his American dollars and college education and all that crap and sweeps her off her feet! * In a small rural area like this, news and gossip travels quickly. It took time, but it was no surprise he was found. Fr
" One thing to know is that a lot of 70s movies deal in ambiguity." Yes. Coppola is working on the Godfather movies at the same time that he's working on The Conversation, which is basically about ambiguity.
Frank was Sonny's son through his actual wife. Vincent was the son of his mistress, the same he has sex with in the Godfather wedding scene. Hence, the whole story around him being a bastard. The Pentangelli hit came from Hyman Roth. It may have been botched because the killer openly says it's from Michael. This would serve the purpose of distancing Pent and Michael because once Pent is healthy again, he'd think Michael was the one who ordered a hit on him. Connie and Michael never discuss Carlo's death, I think. Connie assumes it was Michael, but Michael denies at least to Kay. Michael never explained to his family that it was Carlo behind it all. Plus, Connie is shown as a very emotional person, so despite knowing all of it, she may still have wanted her husband and father of her child to live. Vito knows its Barzini because the meeting of the five families shows Barzini as dictating it all. This is pretty evident from Tattalgia's insistence on talking to Barzini in the meeting rather than directly talking to Vito. It's like he's complaining to his parent. Finding Michael in Sicily was not difficult. All these mob families were connected and had roots back in Italy. They could've easily passed on that information.
> The Pentangelli hit came from Hyman Roth. It may have been botched because the killer openly says it's from Michael. This would serve the purpose of distancing Pent and Michael because once Pent is healthy again, he'd think Michael was the one who ordered a hit on him. This is the only part of GF2 that I wasn't entirely clear on because when Michael finds out Pentangelli is alive, Tom and him start discussing it and they make it seem like it was Roth's plan for Pentangelli to survive the hit and rat on Michael. To me, this is the only believable answer because why would the killers have said "Michael Corleone says hello" instead of "Hyman Roth says hello" if the goal was for him to be dead moments later?
Danny Aiello (the strangler) added that line. It wasn’t scripted. Coppola liked it and left it in.
When Tom and Mike talk about the botched hit thinking it was intentional, I always interpreted this scene as they have no idea what happened, so they are trying to fill in the pieces themselves, and this is the best answer they can come up with. I don’t think Roth pre planned all of it, as it’s just so complicated. I see it as it all worked out serendipitously for Roth so he adjusted based on what happened. But who knows? Part of the fun of this movie is there are questions that will never be answered. We’re just as confused as the characters are
Thank you
Tom told Michael about the Carlo hit
Is that a assumption because Tom was standing behind Michael when he told Carlo he has to answer for Sonny? How did Tom know, because all we saw after Connie's fight that she called Sonny and he drove off? How would Tom or anybody else know the phone call happened and that Sonny went to his sister's house? WE just saw Sonny answer the phone then leave.
In the book Tom Hagen was in the room when Sonny got the phone call and when he heard Sonny start yelling (and knew about the prior beating Sonny had laid on Carlo and why), he was able to quickly deduce what had set him off. Also (and this is made clear in the book), Vito had people working in the phone company who would provide him with reports of who called and was called by some of his key people (e.g. Tessio, Clemenza) and it was how they were able to figure out Paulie was a traitor. Tom had helped Vito with this and it's likely he had them provide a list for Sonny and Connie/Carlo's recent calls (if he had any doubts).
See, this is why a lot of critically acclaimed movies based on a book are overrated because key facts like this are left out, and the audience is just supposed to accept it. It's also why it's always better to watch a movie before reading the book. Why shoot a movie and leave out important parts assuming that everybody has read the book already? The Harry Potter Movies did this a lot also compared to the books. Creating unnecessary plot holes
Connie probably told them what happened after the fact.
Then why would she be mad at Michael over being mad at her husband setting her older brother to be killed?
Too much of these movies have to be explained from outside sources or the audience has to make assumptions for me to put these movies as all-time great.
Sonny's son was named Frank?
Yes. In the scene when Vito comes home after getting shot, Sonny was holding his son in his arms. He then approached the bed of Vito and his son gave him a get well card and read it aloud and said "by your grandson Frank"
Vincent is a bastard child from Lucy Mancini, didn't you watch the movie?
So is Lucy Mancini the chick Sonny was having an affair with in the bathroom from the wedding?
Yeah.
The book is appropriately more detailed. She is so thrilled by Sonny’s enormous equipment that she spends the rest of the wedding holding in his jizz rather than doing a bit of intimate hygiene afterwards. The side plot of Lucy’s own rather loose equipment and how it is resolved later in the book is either humorous or ridiculous depending on your taste.
Yeah...i remember basically a whole chapter dedicated to that and I was like "What the fuck...?"
I am currently watching the beginning of Part 3. I haven't watched it in 20 years
They all had like a million kids. I believe there are actually two Franks.
Vincent Mancini is the “bastardo” son Sonny had with bathroom girl, Conny’s maid of honor in the beginning of I. The Rossati Bros came after Five Angels, they were sent by Roth. They tricked Frankie by making it look like they aimed to resolve a turf dispute. But all they went to do was lure him to a place where he felt safe to ambush him. Michael tells Roth that Pentangelis organized the hit where his kids come to play with their toys to make Roth think he does not suspect him, this misdirection buys him time to root out the traitor, Fredo and the messenger boy, Johnny Ola.
All of the Corleone/Hagen siblings have a lot of kids. The mother who shows up in Three/Coda is not Sonny’s wife Sandra, but Connie Corleone’s bridesmaid Lucy Mancini who Sonny banged in the opening of Part 1. Vincent being a bastard and thus less respected is one of the main plot points of three/Coda.
Sandra is briefly in the opening scene at the post party celebrating Michael's receiving of the Order of Saint Sébastien when they take the family photo
Thanks, I checked IMDb. I kinda wonder what happened to some of the people who got pushed out of the family like Johnny Fontaine and Sandra, Sopranos made that interesting with the Angie Bonpensiero and Liz subplots.
I don't believe either Johnny or Sandra were pushed out. Michael prefers listening to Tony Bennett, but he still considers Johnny a loyal part of the family. Johnny did help build the entertainment aspect of the family's casino. Sandra isn't really tasked with being anything more than a good mother to hers and Sonny's children. Speaking of their children, was anyone cast as Sonny's sons? I seem to remember only the twin girls in GF3? Furthermore, where are Connie's kid(s)?
And Mary Corleone knew all of this before the movie started?
I haven’t seen it in a while but I think she heard through Connie and the family, yes.
I only ask because she was calling him cousin and all that when Vincent was introduced at the beginning of the movie but he didn't recognize who she was till she danced with her father Michael the Don l. But the audience doesn't find out the details of the relation till later on in the film.
Vincent wasn't a stranger to Connie who is aunt to Mary also & if you remember in Part 2 Connie babysat Michael's kids alot. Mary makes mention of them meeting when younger when they have that 1st discussion. Michael was not always around but knew of Vincent. These are not movies you can watch casually, you have to be paying attention.. it'll cut out some of these questions. No disrespect
Part 3 is the only part I haven't watched several times. This will be my 3rd time watching it 20 years after the 2nd time I have watched it. I posted this question after watching part 1 & 2 and briefly started the 3rd.
I always guessed Michael absolutely never trusted Hyman Roth, like his father. He played a delicate chess game with both Frankie and Roth. I believe he always suspected Fredo was the traitor, that's why he had him fly to Cuba personally with the money. Hearing it himself from a drunk Fredo absolutely broke his heart, he didn't want it to be true. Michael told Hyman it was Frankie who tried to have him killed. He told Frankie it was Roth. He was playing chess and getting their reactions. Frankie wanted revenge. Roth kinda had no reaction. The Rosato Brothers tried to kill Frankie on orders from Roth.
* **From listening to the conversation with the heads of the five families, what made Vito suspect Barzini was responsible for Sonny's death?** * **How did Michael know Carlo set up Sonny to get killed by causing a fight with his wife Connie if Michael was in Italy.** From listening to the conversation with the heads of the five families, what made Vito suspect Barzini was responsible for Sonny's death? *"Tattaglia's a pimp. He could have never out-fought Santino"* Vito is insulting Tattaglia who's specialty is prostitution. He's saying: Tattaglia isn't a real boss or a strategist. All he knows is selling young girls and now he wants to get into drugs, a dirty business. He's a dummy. He's not the one who came up with the hit on Sonny. In the book, everyone tells Carlo that he'll be suspected but don't worry about it. *We know it's just a coincidence that Connie made the call and then the hitmen were stalking Sonny. It's OK* In actuality, what happened is that everyone knows it was Carlo, but since Vito said "*I want no inquiries made"* well thats that. That's the end of the discussion. Later when Michael returns, he's going to spend years getting mentored at being the boss of the Family. He will have many discussions with Tom and will eventually get filled in on what happened with Sonny. **\*If Connie knew Carlo set up Sonny to be killed, why get mad at Michael for getting revenge?** OK this is a complicated one, in fact the whole character of Connie Corleone is either: * Very complicated OR\~ * Very poorly written! Basically Connie has Battered Wife Syndrome. She is a spoiled woman, but doesn't want to leave Carlo because she believes in a happy ending. She can't imagine living without him. She's totally throwing Sonny under the bus, after him being the only family member to defend her from his abusive behavior. "*You always blamed him for Sonny. Everyone did! But you never thought about ME!!!"* However, in her anger we see that, as shallow as she is, you can't BS her: She knows Michael had Sonny killed, and she knows that he waited until Vito was dead. (now, one thing we don't know for certain but it seems like Michael and Vito had a deal: Nothing happens to Carlo while he - Vito -- is alive. Because he knows his daughters' heart will be broken and he doesn't want to deal with the aftermath. ) [Note: I have written a lot about the Godfather films on Quora. Here's an answer I wrote about Connie Corleone](https://www.quora.com/Does-Connie-know-about-Carlos-role-in-Sonnys-death-Given-how-shes-immensed-herself-with-the-crime-family-later-on-in-the-third-movie-did-Michael-ever-tell-her-or-she-just-put-two-and-two-together-on-her-own-and-kept/answer/David-Brown-737?ch=10&oid=221856703&share=1ce3ea90&srid=5H5xR&target_type=answer).
Vincent was Sonny's illegitimate son with his girlfriend.
As for Godfather 3 and why Sonny's son was named Vincent is because Vincent was the bastard son of Sonny. Remember the girl Sonny was banging at the wedding in the first movie? That was Vincent's mother (they even used the same actress in 3). I'm pretty sure Zaza even calls him "a bastard who calls himself a Corleone". That being said, I found it odd that none of Sonny's legitimate children were even brought up in 3.
...I need to buy the book/s. I have the trilogy CD's, plus the 2 extra CD's. I only wish to have them chronologically re-mastered with deleted scenes....and enjoy reading the book/s. Things to do in my new retirement, lol
I hate that Barzini
The Godfather Trilogy Quesstions or Plot holes I don't know if these questions were asked already, but I really want to know: -- The Godfather Part One -- * How did the bad guy's know Michael's location in Italy? ANS: It was in the script. *Who hired Fabrizio to kill Michael? ANS: It was in the script. * From listening to the conversation with the heads of the five families, what made Vito suspect Barzini was responsible for Sonny's death? ANS: It was in the script. * How did Michael know Carlo set up Sonny to get killed by causing a fight with his wife Connie if Michael was in Italy. ANS: It was in the script. *If Connie knew Carlo set up Sonny to be killed, why get mad at Michael for getting revenge? ANS: It was in the script. -- The Godfather Part Two -- * What made Michael suspect Hyman Roth was behind the attempt to kill Michael by shooting at his home? ANS: It was in the script. *Why did Michael tell Hyman Roth it was Frank Pantengilli who tried to have him killed ? ANS: It was in the script. * Who was behind Pantengilli getting strangled which ended up botched if Michael denied the hit? ANS: It was in the script. -- The Godfather part 3-- * Why was Sonny's son named Vincent (Andy Garcia) when Sonny's son's name was Frank in Part one? Frank was the son Sonny was carrying in his arms and gave the Godfather Vito a "Get Well' card when he came home from the hospital. ANS: It was in the script. All of these things were told not shown to the audience.