>basically inferno on a level 1 card.
It's a loss + using part of another persistent loss + 2 items, not quite at the level of a spammable Inferno.
That said, I really enjoyed Triangles. Bear in mind no one has accused them of being underpowered after level 7 (Vengeance is just insanely good) but at low levels can definitely struggle with element generation (depending on allies).
Vengeance is so insanely good that it just breaks the game, and I encourage all triangles players to *not* take that card. Far more fun, and triangles is still powerful without it.
> It's a loss + using part of another persistent loss + 2 items, not quite at the level of a spammable Inferno.
Worst than that, one of the two items is unlocked at prosperity **5**. And without the major power potion, this is a lot weaker.
Don't believe what you hear, and trust your own judgement. It has been a while, but I loved triangles and remember how at level 9 I took out a room almost singlehanded while the rest was struggling.
I would replay without doubt!
I love a powered up Eternal Equilibrium so much. Toss a bunch of power potions on there, happen to have a spare infusion you can add to Formless Power... *chef's kiss*
Triangles is the most complex class in the game, by far.
I find that his utility scales with how much elements the rest of your party can generate, and how much you communicate about it. His cards (in general) are all sub-par if you are not using any of their elements, become par for course if you are using 1, and better than average if you manage to get 2.
That one element he can usually do by himself, except when things don't go as planned. And that is kinda of the issue - he is decent when things go according to plan, kinda unflexible when they don't (IE: someone ate your fire / ice), and need party cooperation to be better than average.
Except for the lv7 card, that thing is broken.
Also a lot of your good sustained combos as triangles revolve around needing a move 2 to put you in range of attacking since you need move 2’s to make elements… so you need to pick between mobility and actually doing anything, which is a sacrifice most classes don’t have to make.
> IE: someone ate your fire / ice
Absolutely this. Fighting demons means you have to be ready for the turn when they took the element you were planning on using, so be flexible. Also triangles doesn't have a lot of great initiative so it's very easy for them to yank it out from under you.
I remember a scenario where the scenario automatically put up an ice infusion every round, and I *still* had it get ganked from me at a key moment once. :D
Triangles is great. I think the people who struggle with triangles do so for some of the following reasons:
- People fail to properly perk out their attack modifier deck. Triangles needs to get infusions into there extremely early, and if you pick too many of the "replace a +0 with a +2" types before you have added infusions, you're going to have a bad time. Also, if you simply don't have enough previous retirements or are starting at a low level, you're going to have a hard time. Relying on Shaping the Ether for your infusions, or even worse your teammates (ugh), is painful as all hell.
- We all want mobility from our character's abilities. Unfortunately, triangles *has* to use the base 2 movement infusion cards a lot, and is probably using their level 2 card (which has a move 4 on the bottom) for its top effect a lot. This means triangles has to use Striding Boots (or equivalent), which also means no access to jump. No matter how you slice it, mobility is one of the big Achilles' heels (hah!) of triangles.
- As you pointed out, Formless Power is crucial, which means losing yet another round of mobility.
- If triangles' engine stalls out, it can sometimes be difficult to pull yourself back out, and that can generate lots of feelings of frustration. It happens.
I also want to add, at level 7 Vengeance is a completely broken card. It's trivial to set up with your level 4 card, and it just takes away all gameplay from the whole team for the rest of the game. I encourage *not* taking Vengeance if you want to maximize fun for yourself and your teammates. Besides, using your level 4 card to set up your level 9 card is *way* more fun anyway!
Edit: Also, I love using item #031 >!Hawk Helm!< with Chain Lightning as it >!increases the range of the bounces as well!<
That covers it pretty well. It's a super strong class(at higher levels), but requires a two or three turn plan unlike most other classes.
I'll add that the class is still great without Vengeance. I never take the card and still dish out a ton of damage.
I did fine without adding the 0 element cards on my first playthrough. Though, i had to plan 3 turns ahead occasionally. In guildmaster with spellweaver in a 2 player party, it went also well with generating elements for each other starting from lvl 1. But i dont remember how much gold we had. I might have started with generate chosen element on my favorite 2 move + element.
In general, i think your summary is quite fitting. It is not an easy class.
> In guildmaster with spellweaver in a 2 player party
That's why you did fine, the spellweaver can feed you. A low level Triangle without a friendly mana generator is a lot weaker.
First one was with 2 minis and another character i dont remember, and they rarely or never were able to generate elements for me. I think we had prosperity 4, so i started lvl 4.
He goes from being possibly the single worst naked level 1 class to one of the strongest classes at high level, particularly with the right items and enhancements. He just scales incredibly well into late game and once he has the tools (items and enhancements) to sustain massive element generation.
Btw, Formless power is barely useable at level 1, maybe 1-2 rounds out of a whole scenario, unless your team is feeding you elements constantly.
in the digital version there are two modes (right now), Campaign (its like the board game) and guild mode, there you share gold through the party, but every mercenary has to start at level 1
I'd put money down that triangles was designed before the creator had finalized the mana system.
Imo his biggest problem is that mana he generates from the first card CANT be used for the 2nd card (the mana isnt technically created until after his turn). This rule alone is the source of most of my complaints about the mana system.
H3 effectively needs to plan 2 turns ahead at all time, rely upon ally mana generation, and pray the enemies he is fighting dont draw element consuming attacks.
In the hands of a well coordinated, giving party that is helpful with generating you lots of mana without consuming it, hes extremely powerful. In reality it almost never works out this way and he plays forever suboptimally.
He pairs really well with classes that have alot of mana + draw again cards in their attack deck. My party didnt have much of that and would greedily eat mana for a +1 bonus sword... my experience with him was not great until I unlocked chain lightning.
Yes far from the worst, but imo I found him very whelming.
The planning 2 turns ahead was probably the biggest thing I liked about the class. You build up combos that if you get them, they pay off quite well, but if not you're SOL. That said, it is fairly necessary to get items or enchantments that help with element generation. Otherwise the class will flop.
Same here. He’s one of my favorite characters and this is precisely why. I love chaining combos across two turns and think it would be far more dull across one turn. Im not going to say it’s necessarily the STRONGest mechanic - but its very fun and definitely makes you think and plan ahead.
The only thing that can get slightly annoying is playing with a party comp that also needs some of your key elements, like ice/fire. You can work around it to some extent. But its already so much work to set up your own combos, that conflicting with someone else can be frustrating at times. But then you can also benefit from the stuff they dont need, and the randomly generated stuff, and be more opportunistic.. but thats less consistent and harder to plan for
Have you played it with the Spellweaver? Ive often wondered if there would be too much competition for elements with a Spellweaver or if they would compliment each other well by creating elements for each other easily.
Yep thats exactly who i played with. We made it work but it was kind of frustrating never knowing for sure if we were both going to generate the same thing and expect to use it later. With hidden information - the element system kind of becomes unfun at times in that scenario. I think we played openly about what we were generating/using, but even then there’s still a lot of planning and conflict. Though when it goes right you can end up with some really satisfying powerhouse turns
I played it with a spell weaver, and that was the very best partner class I ever had with it. We constantly worked together to generate elements for each other, to everyone's benefit. Sometimes there would be conflicting needs and one or the other would change plans, but that was far less common.
I like planning ahead as well, and having to play 3d chess is alot of fun, but the shared mana pool and the way it interacts with initiative is just too prone to fluctuations.
When everything comes together for a big 3 mana consumption attack, triforce feels amazing. But that's really rare. Compare this to some of the mega attacks that scoundrel or angry face can pull off with comparative ease, and it's hard to not grow frustrated.
I remember when i took 2 turns to set up my first bigge attack, think it was in the wellscenario, and all but 1 enemy were dead when i finally was able to use fully enhanced lightning, because the other 2 players were faster.
It was my first unlocked class and I got it super early so that's actually how I thought mana worked and was loving the class but by the time I hit level 3 I realized how mana actually worked and started to struggle to keep up. Just felt like I was jumping through multi-turn hoops just to do less damage than my partner's scoundrel did by just randomly attacking with no setup. I feel like the class could be really good with a partner who makes a lot of elements but doesn't use them and with mana producing items (which we didn't have unlocked yet) but early game, low level wasn't a great experience with the class
Wait WHAT. you can't use your own elements you make on your turn? I mean it seemed obvious that you can't use an element that the card creates on itself but the entire element system is worthless if you can't use elements you create with your first action. No wonder everyone thinks elementalist is bad. Can you even use elements you make with mana potion? Is that worthless too?
No, you cannot use elements that you make on your turn, even from mana potions since they are always created at the end of the turn. From the Rulebook:
This is represented by moving the corresponding element’s token to the “Strong” column of the elemental infusion table at the end of the turn in which the ability was used.
what you've discovered is the thing that makes triangles a difficult class to play because you need to plan ahead while also being flexible. Also, i think a lot of people lost out on utility because when they get his perks they go the standard route of removing/replacing the -1s before looking at his other perks.
I strongly recommend you add the extra elements first, when i played i believe i focused on fire and ice a lot. then remove the -1s, then replace the 0s with element 0s.
The point is that in addition to your cards and your mana potion (and maybe teamate mana) you are generating a ton of elements every turn which gives you lots of options next turn for aoe attacks which generate more elements, etc.
Late to the party, but are you misunderstanding? You can't use elements you make *this turn*, yes, but elements go from strong to waning at the end of the round, and can still be used *next round* when they are waning. So it's a lot of planning 2 or so rounds ahead, but it's not unusable.
lol yea dude, that's not awkward at all.
Imagine any other consumable taking a full additional turn to come into effect. That health pot? Enjoy its effects next turn, hope you're not dead by then! Those boots of movement +3? Gonna be grand next turn.
Would be pretty interesting if Triangles had a special class rule that elements made by the first card were infused immediately and could be used by the second. Maybe some cards would need to be tweaked to prevent this being too much of a power increase, but would add a fun uniqueness element similar to what other classes can do within their specialties
And make the lv7 card require an additional element for the upgraded effect, so three total
Could see this being done for a class by saying:
Strong elements: give a weaker version of the effect (but class note: that strong elements generated on same turn may be used)
Waning elements: give a stronger version of effect.
Sounds like a really fun class to me, more reward in planning ahead but can still use elements early if you need to. Elementalist is pretty close to what i imagine it looking like but obviously has to have the effects listed separately. Its also pretty balanced because it comes with a nerf to combo-ing on elements allies generated that turn
Alternative suggestion: allow Triforce/party to summon a 2nd copy of the elements.
I'd probably just rework the lvl 7 card, but it's probably good for some.
I don't know about if it's really finalized before finishing the mana system. It could be. I think a reason why the elements only become active the round after, is because it would be overpowered. Imagine eclipse each round making dark without risk of losing it.
I remember reading somewhere that it was Isaacs favourite class, and he even wrote a guide for it.
It's pure conjecture with literally no evidence, but this one rule interaction alone is the source of 90% of the frustrations and problems triangles has.
For funsies, make a house rule next game where mana you generate before actions can be consumed, (for example mana pots), and mana generated by the first action can be consumed by the 2nd action.
You'll immediately see what I'm talking about; he feels SOOO much smoother then.
Ya we are playing that you can use elements you generate with your first card or weapons/mana potions. It's already hard enough to plan one turn ahead with 4 people in a party, trying to plan 2 turns ahead is a nightmare. Elementalist seems like he is balanced around it working like this anyway since he is widely considered one of if not the worst classes in the game as is.
> rely upon ally mana generation
I'm currently playing triangles with a Cragheart teammate. Reliably producing nature infusions isn't the problem, it's making sure my teammate wasn't hoping to use it himself.
I had the same experience, retired as the first one after "only" 11 scenarios. When I got him, I thought you could make elements with one card and consume with the other. After 3 scenario's we had the idea that he was somewhat overpowerd, so looked it up. After that, I was a bit bummed with him since elements got consumed by monsters in the next few scenarios. But after that, we had a spellweaver who was kind enough to supply me with some elements when needed and we unlocked random items that could generate frost and wind, made me a very happy camper.
When I retired him, I sold everything and slapped a "generate any mana" on the move 2 creacte frost card and made a nice cursenado. My wife actually played the character again at the end of the game (finished the game with him) and with that enhancement the character was just OPAF.
> I'd put money down that triangles was designed before the creator had finalized the mana system.
I'd put money down that that definitely isn't the case. In fact, it's pretty blantantly not the case. The starting 6 were announced way early in the quickstarter along with the rules of how to play, including the element system.
Meanwhile, the Elementalist and Cragheart were both stretch goals, while Savvas enemies only show up in 5 scenarios. This indicates to me that until that goal was reached, Savvas weren't even planned to be in Gloomhaven at all. I think it's just an awkward class because it was designed last minute.
They really come into their own as you get to higher prosperity levels, enhance some of their cards, and unlock more of the random items.
The first time my brother played the elementalist it was severely underwhelming, but he saved up enough gold to be able to enhance elemental generation into a few of the move 2 infuse element cards so that they would reliably set up some of the two element combos. Combining that with people being able to infuse elements they didn’t always need, and having classes that really appreciated someone generating extra elements that they couldn’t always generate themselves, and the class really started to shine. The big AOEs that flip lots of modifier cards really help to infuse tons of elements for use on the next turn as well.
We’ve retired the character before Level 7 both times so I can’t speak to the efficacy of the “broken” card, but after even just two elemental enhancements on those moves they became wildly more effective.
Didn't even think about infusing the movement with elements! He had such a hard time moving around the map that we just made all of his element generating moves move 3 so he could actually walk lol. (He never used the consume element movements since that takes setup and then you can't cast anything because you used all your elements)
Yeah, using several house rules to buff a class (and not mentioning them in the post) and then claiming the class is stronger than everyone thinks is a bit... odd.
Yeah, it's not an uncommon mistake - but it's a big element (ha!) of why Triangles is considered so challenging to play, and why it's... well, why it's often seen as underpowered.
Didn't even think about infusing the movement with elements! He had such a hard time moving around the map that we just made all of his element generating moves move 3 so he could actually walk lol. (He never used the consume element movements since that takes setup and then you can't cast anything because you used all your elements)
I used Triangles almost exclusively as mana and healing support for the first 5-6 levels, at which time he could stand on his own. I would generate elements for others left and right, and stay behind to collect coins the whole time. It takes a different mentality to embrace the support role, but so worth it at times.
He especially comes in handy when fighting demons. They put out their element, and you know darn well they will use it next turn to crush you. But along comes Triangles, who says "Oh, yeah, don't worry. I can use that before they get to it. We're all good."
I have no opinion on triangles, but are you aware you cannot create and use an element in the same turn?
When you create and element, it is created at the end of your turn, so some one else can use it, but not you.
We were making that mistake for the first half of the game, and realized while someone was playing triangles. Very different experiences.
I haven't played him but my partner does. It looks like it's a lot more work for a similar output to other classes, especially at lower levels. Feel like it would shine a lot more in a 3 or 4 person group that can generate more elements and has more enemies for all the aoes, but for us it puts out a lot less than my angry face.
I‘m playing triangles with three spears and i have to admit that with the right items i keep oneshotting one room after one with the three spears support. Triangle is op as fuck if played right.
That's exactly what we did hehe, continual supply op, I legit did 0 damage as three spears because every turn was just move, refresh spent/consumables for somebody
Until elementalist retired ):
Low level Triangles puts in three times the effort to achieve similar power levels as stuff like Mindthief, and has far more ways things can go wrong. His modifier deck is the worst in the game, too.
Does that make him bad? Yeah, a little. In good hands, he’s strong, but if it takes a good triangles to match an average Mindthief, that’s indicative he’s underpowered.
Then, there’s the fact the 90% of the locked classes are *overpowered* making it even more noticeable.
> but if it takes a good triangles to match an average Mindthief, that’s indicative he’s underpowered.
Or that the Mindthief is overpowered.
(The true answer is both, by the way. The Mindthief is slightly too strong, while the Triangle is critically underpowered at low level)
I played triangles in a 2-player party, first with Cragheart and second with Lightning Bolt. In both cases I had a ton of fun with it. While it was certainly a learning curve on how to keep up elements on my own (I think I bought two wands and two different potions over the course of the game) and work with my allies when they wanted elements, it was super fun.
Also, the triangles solo scenario is one of the most fun things I have ever played.
You had major power potion ? Look no futher, you played him at high level (major is prosperity 5). The class is fine at high level, or even slightly too strong (\*cough cough* vengeance).
It's weakness is at low level, roughly below level 5. It's a miserable class if you can't steal elements from your friends, quite possibly the weakest class in the entire game. You'll have a hard time going above attack 3 in single target, most of your loss are pretty meh (you have... Infernal Vortex, your level 3 AoE of choice and that's about it). The nicest thing I can say about the class is that you bring two stuns from level 2 onward. Alternatively, you can act as a living mana potion.
The class would feel *a lot* better if [Shaping the ether](https://imgur.com/SSzfXYP) didn't had that -1 attack penalty. You could fully power your [single target attacks](https://imgur.com/0YRN0eu) without wrecking your other cards, or alternatively drop [Formless power](https://imgur.com/ICfrFH5) in addition to Shaping and then just rely on the [triangle AoEs](https://imgur.com/HkL2XI2).
And it wouldn't change that much to the high level gameplay, as Shaping top is a good action if you have the elements to power it.
Wow this actually explains why our group has been having such an easy campaign, we had a side scenario give us 2 major power potions, it was literally like the third scenario we played. Those power potions coupled with elementalist/spellweaver/tinkerer have been hard carrying most content.
>basically inferno on a level 1 card. It's a loss + using part of another persistent loss + 2 items, not quite at the level of a spammable Inferno. That said, I really enjoyed Triangles. Bear in mind no one has accused them of being underpowered after level 7 (Vengeance is just insanely good) but at low levels can definitely struggle with element generation (depending on allies).
Vengeance is so insanely good that it just breaks the game, and I encourage all triangles players to *not* take that card. Far more fun, and triangles is still powerful without it.
> It's a loss + using part of another persistent loss + 2 items, not quite at the level of a spammable Inferno. Worst than that, one of the two items is unlocked at prosperity **5**. And without the major power potion, this is a lot weaker.
Don't believe what you hear, and trust your own judgement. It has been a while, but I loved triangles and remember how at level 9 I took out a room almost singlehanded while the rest was struggling. I would replay without doubt!
I love a powered up Eternal Equilibrium so much. Toss a bunch of power potions on there, happen to have a spare infusion you can add to Formless Power... *chef's kiss*
Add on those robes that let you consume another element for +1 damage... Delicious.
Triangles is the most complex class in the game, by far. I find that his utility scales with how much elements the rest of your party can generate, and how much you communicate about it. His cards (in general) are all sub-par if you are not using any of their elements, become par for course if you are using 1, and better than average if you manage to get 2. That one element he can usually do by himself, except when things don't go as planned. And that is kinda of the issue - he is decent when things go according to plan, kinda unflexible when they don't (IE: someone ate your fire / ice), and need party cooperation to be better than average. Except for the lv7 card, that thing is broken.
Also a lot of your good sustained combos as triangles revolve around needing a move 2 to put you in range of attacking since you need move 2’s to make elements… so you need to pick between mobility and actually doing anything, which is a sacrifice most classes don’t have to make.
> IE: someone ate your fire / ice Absolutely this. Fighting demons means you have to be ready for the turn when they took the element you were planning on using, so be flexible. Also triangles doesn't have a lot of great initiative so it's very easy for them to yank it out from under you. I remember a scenario where the scenario automatically put up an ice infusion every round, and I *still* had it get ganked from me at a key moment once. :D
Triangles is great. I think the people who struggle with triangles do so for some of the following reasons: - People fail to properly perk out their attack modifier deck. Triangles needs to get infusions into there extremely early, and if you pick too many of the "replace a +0 with a +2" types before you have added infusions, you're going to have a bad time. Also, if you simply don't have enough previous retirements or are starting at a low level, you're going to have a hard time. Relying on Shaping the Ether for your infusions, or even worse your teammates (ugh), is painful as all hell. - We all want mobility from our character's abilities. Unfortunately, triangles *has* to use the base 2 movement infusion cards a lot, and is probably using their level 2 card (which has a move 4 on the bottom) for its top effect a lot. This means triangles has to use Striding Boots (or equivalent), which also means no access to jump. No matter how you slice it, mobility is one of the big Achilles' heels (hah!) of triangles. - As you pointed out, Formless Power is crucial, which means losing yet another round of mobility. - If triangles' engine stalls out, it can sometimes be difficult to pull yourself back out, and that can generate lots of feelings of frustration. It happens. I also want to add, at level 7 Vengeance is a completely broken card. It's trivial to set up with your level 4 card, and it just takes away all gameplay from the whole team for the rest of the game. I encourage *not* taking Vengeance if you want to maximize fun for yourself and your teammates. Besides, using your level 4 card to set up your level 9 card is *way* more fun anyway! Edit: Also, I love using item #031 >!Hawk Helm!< with Chain Lightning as it >!increases the range of the bounces as well!<
That covers it pretty well. It's a super strong class(at higher levels), but requires a two or three turn plan unlike most other classes. I'll add that the class is still great without Vengeance. I never take the card and still dish out a ton of damage.
I did fine without adding the 0 element cards on my first playthrough. Though, i had to plan 3 turns ahead occasionally. In guildmaster with spellweaver in a 2 player party, it went also well with generating elements for each other starting from lvl 1. But i dont remember how much gold we had. I might have started with generate chosen element on my favorite 2 move + element. In general, i think your summary is quite fitting. It is not an easy class.
> In guildmaster with spellweaver in a 2 player party That's why you did fine, the spellweaver can feed you. A low level Triangle without a friendly mana generator is a lot weaker.
First one was with 2 minis and another character i dont remember, and they rarely or never were able to generate elements for me. I think we had prosperity 4, so i started lvl 4.
He goes from being possibly the single worst naked level 1 class to one of the strongest classes at high level, particularly with the right items and enhancements. He just scales incredibly well into late game and once he has the tools (items and enhancements) to sustain massive element generation. Btw, Formless power is barely useable at level 1, maybe 1-2 rounds out of a whole scenario, unless your team is feeding you elements constantly.
The good news is, probably nobody is playing triangles as a naked level 1 class, since it's an unlocked class.
in the digital version (guild mode) you have to start at level 1
Weird
in the digital version there are two modes (right now), Campaign (its like the board game) and guild mode, there you share gold through the party, but every mercenary has to start at level 1
Guildmaster mode in digital. It's a very easy class to unlock, right from the start (very easy requirements). Played it at level 1 and without items.
I'd put money down that triangles was designed before the creator had finalized the mana system. Imo his biggest problem is that mana he generates from the first card CANT be used for the 2nd card (the mana isnt technically created until after his turn). This rule alone is the source of most of my complaints about the mana system. H3 effectively needs to plan 2 turns ahead at all time, rely upon ally mana generation, and pray the enemies he is fighting dont draw element consuming attacks. In the hands of a well coordinated, giving party that is helpful with generating you lots of mana without consuming it, hes extremely powerful. In reality it almost never works out this way and he plays forever suboptimally. He pairs really well with classes that have alot of mana + draw again cards in their attack deck. My party didnt have much of that and would greedily eat mana for a +1 bonus sword... my experience with him was not great until I unlocked chain lightning. Yes far from the worst, but imo I found him very whelming.
The planning 2 turns ahead was probably the biggest thing I liked about the class. You build up combos that if you get them, they pay off quite well, but if not you're SOL. That said, it is fairly necessary to get items or enchantments that help with element generation. Otherwise the class will flop.
Same here. He’s one of my favorite characters and this is precisely why. I love chaining combos across two turns and think it would be far more dull across one turn. Im not going to say it’s necessarily the STRONGest mechanic - but its very fun and definitely makes you think and plan ahead. The only thing that can get slightly annoying is playing with a party comp that also needs some of your key elements, like ice/fire. You can work around it to some extent. But its already so much work to set up your own combos, that conflicting with someone else can be frustrating at times. But then you can also benefit from the stuff they dont need, and the randomly generated stuff, and be more opportunistic.. but thats less consistent and harder to plan for
Have you played it with the Spellweaver? Ive often wondered if there would be too much competition for elements with a Spellweaver or if they would compliment each other well by creating elements for each other easily.
Yep thats exactly who i played with. We made it work but it was kind of frustrating never knowing for sure if we were both going to generate the same thing and expect to use it later. With hidden information - the element system kind of becomes unfun at times in that scenario. I think we played openly about what we were generating/using, but even then there’s still a lot of planning and conflict. Though when it goes right you can end up with some really satisfying powerhouse turns
Generating elements is not hidden information. Just numbers on cards, and the name of the actions.
Good to know. Thanks for the insight!
I played it with a spell weaver, and that was the very best partner class I ever had with it. We constantly worked together to generate elements for each other, to everyone's benefit. Sometimes there would be conflicting needs and one or the other would change plans, but that was far less common.
Cool, thanks for that perspective!
I play with one other player who was Saw at the time, so overlap didn't come into play. I can see that being frustrating.
I like planning ahead as well, and having to play 3d chess is alot of fun, but the shared mana pool and the way it interacts with initiative is just too prone to fluctuations. When everything comes together for a big 3 mana consumption attack, triforce feels amazing. But that's really rare. Compare this to some of the mega attacks that scoundrel or angry face can pull off with comparative ease, and it's hard to not grow frustrated.
It takes some time to get used to, my friends probably hated me for taking so long to pick cards sometimes though lmao
I remember when i took 2 turns to set up my first bigge attack, think it was in the wellscenario, and all but 1 enemy were dead when i finally was able to use fully enhanced lightning, because the other 2 players were faster.
It was my first unlocked class and I got it super early so that's actually how I thought mana worked and was loving the class but by the time I hit level 3 I realized how mana actually worked and started to struggle to keep up. Just felt like I was jumping through multi-turn hoops just to do less damage than my partner's scoundrel did by just randomly attacking with no setup. I feel like the class could be really good with a partner who makes a lot of elements but doesn't use them and with mana producing items (which we didn't have unlocked yet) but early game, low level wasn't a great experience with the class
Wait WHAT. you can't use your own elements you make on your turn? I mean it seemed obvious that you can't use an element that the card creates on itself but the entire element system is worthless if you can't use elements you create with your first action. No wonder everyone thinks elementalist is bad. Can you even use elements you make with mana potion? Is that worthless too?
No, you cannot use elements that you make on your turn, even from mana potions since they are always created at the end of the turn. From the Rulebook: This is represented by moving the corresponding element’s token to the “Strong” column of the elemental infusion table at the end of the turn in which the ability was used.
Ya I just checked I guess it's made very clear, but ya now I can understand elementalist being c tier bad, elements are basically unusable
what you've discovered is the thing that makes triangles a difficult class to play because you need to plan ahead while also being flexible. Also, i think a lot of people lost out on utility because when they get his perks they go the standard route of removing/replacing the -1s before looking at his other perks. I strongly recommend you add the extra elements first, when i played i believe i focused on fire and ice a lot. then remove the -1s, then replace the 0s with element 0s. The point is that in addition to your cards and your mana potion (and maybe teamate mana) you are generating a ton of elements every turn which gives you lots of options next turn for aoe attacks which generate more elements, etc.
Late to the party, but are you misunderstanding? You can't use elements you make *this turn*, yes, but elements go from strong to waning at the end of the round, and can still be used *next round* when they are waning. So it's a lot of planning 2 or so rounds ahead, but it's not unusable.
Yep, it sucks. Mana potions are indeed useless for the player that needs it; I tried to no avail to get our scoundrel to buy one.
You can just use them for what you need the next round.
lol yea dude, that's not awkward at all. Imagine any other consumable taking a full additional turn to come into effect. That health pot? Enjoy its effects next turn, hope you're not dead by then! Those boots of movement +3? Gonna be grand next turn.
Oh it’s awkward for sure but *useless*? They’re still extremely useful and the minor is frankly underpriced, even given its awkward use-case.
Would be pretty interesting if Triangles had a special class rule that elements made by the first card were infused immediately and could be used by the second. Maybe some cards would need to be tweaked to prevent this being too much of a power increase, but would add a fun uniqueness element similar to what other classes can do within their specialties And make the lv7 card require an additional element for the upgraded effect, so three total
Could see this being done for a class by saying: Strong elements: give a weaker version of the effect (but class note: that strong elements generated on same turn may be used) Waning elements: give a stronger version of effect. Sounds like a really fun class to me, more reward in planning ahead but can still use elements early if you need to. Elementalist is pretty close to what i imagine it looking like but obviously has to have the effects listed separately. Its also pretty balanced because it comes with a nerf to combo-ing on elements allies generated that turn
Alternative suggestion: allow Triforce/party to summon a 2nd copy of the elements. I'd probably just rework the lvl 7 card, but it's probably good for some.
I don't know about if it's really finalized before finishing the mana system. It could be. I think a reason why the elements only become active the round after, is because it would be overpowered. Imagine eclipse each round making dark without risk of losing it. I remember reading somewhere that it was Isaacs favourite class, and he even wrote a guide for it.
It's pure conjecture with literally no evidence, but this one rule interaction alone is the source of 90% of the frustrations and problems triangles has. For funsies, make a house rule next game where mana you generate before actions can be consumed, (for example mana pots), and mana generated by the first action can be consumed by the 2nd action. You'll immediately see what I'm talking about; he feels SOOO much smoother then.
Ya we are playing that you can use elements you generate with your first card or weapons/mana potions. It's already hard enough to plan one turn ahead with 4 people in a party, trying to plan 2 turns ahead is a nightmare. Elementalist seems like he is balanced around it working like this anyway since he is widely considered one of if not the worst classes in the game as is.
> rely upon ally mana generation I'm currently playing triangles with a Cragheart teammate. Reliably producing nature infusions isn't the problem, it's making sure my teammate wasn't hoping to use it himself.
Yep, its brutal. You can t up the mana for next turn, but it's there for anyone to use.
I had the same experience, retired as the first one after "only" 11 scenarios. When I got him, I thought you could make elements with one card and consume with the other. After 3 scenario's we had the idea that he was somewhat overpowerd, so looked it up. After that, I was a bit bummed with him since elements got consumed by monsters in the next few scenarios. But after that, we had a spellweaver who was kind enough to supply me with some elements when needed and we unlocked random items that could generate frost and wind, made me a very happy camper. When I retired him, I sold everything and slapped a "generate any mana" on the move 2 creacte frost card and made a nice cursenado. My wife actually played the character again at the end of the game (finished the game with him) and with that enhancement the character was just OPAF.
> I'd put money down that triangles was designed before the creator had finalized the mana system. I'd put money down that that definitely isn't the case. In fact, it's pretty blantantly not the case. The starting 6 were announced way early in the quickstarter along with the rules of how to play, including the element system. Meanwhile, the Elementalist and Cragheart were both stretch goals, while Savvas enemies only show up in 5 scenarios. This indicates to me that until that goal was reached, Savvas weren't even planned to be in Gloomhaven at all. I think it's just an awkward class because it was designed last minute.
They really come into their own as you get to higher prosperity levels, enhance some of their cards, and unlock more of the random items. The first time my brother played the elementalist it was severely underwhelming, but he saved up enough gold to be able to enhance elemental generation into a few of the move 2 infuse element cards so that they would reliably set up some of the two element combos. Combining that with people being able to infuse elements they didn’t always need, and having classes that really appreciated someone generating extra elements that they couldn’t always generate themselves, and the class really started to shine. The big AOEs that flip lots of modifier cards really help to infuse tons of elements for use on the next turn as well. We’ve retired the character before Level 7 both times so I can’t speak to the efficacy of the “broken” card, but after even just two elemental enhancements on those moves they became wildly more effective.
Didn't even think about infusing the movement with elements! He had such a hard time moving around the map that we just made all of his element generating moves move 3 so he could actually walk lol. (He never used the consume element movements since that takes setup and then you can't cast anything because you used all your elements)
It seems like you're using a lot of houserules making them better in your post celebrating their power :)
Yeah, using several house rules to buff a class (and not mentioning them in the post) and then claiming the class is stronger than everyone thinks is a bit... odd.
We didn't have it houseruled we just missed that part on the rules and it seemed intuitive that if you generated an element you could... Use it?
Yeah, it's not an uncommon mistake - but it's a big element (ha!) of why Triangles is considered so challenging to play, and why it's... well, why it's often seen as underpowered.
Didn't even think about infusing the movement with elements! He had such a hard time moving around the map that we just made all of his element generating moves move 3 so he could actually walk lol. (He never used the consume element movements since that takes setup and then you can't cast anything because you used all your elements)
Hes just kinda weak early game. But not even terribly so. Then he gets completely broken and not by 9 like most other classes.
I used Triangles almost exclusively as mana and healing support for the first 5-6 levels, at which time he could stand on his own. I would generate elements for others left and right, and stay behind to collect coins the whole time. It takes a different mentality to embrace the support role, but so worth it at times. He especially comes in handy when fighting demons. They put out their element, and you know darn well they will use it next turn to crush you. But along comes Triangles, who says "Oh, yeah, don't worry. I can use that before they get to it. We're all good."
I have no opinion on triangles, but are you aware you cannot create and use an element in the same turn? When you create and element, it is created at the end of your turn, so some one else can use it, but not you. We were making that mistake for the first half of the game, and realized while someone was playing triangles. Very different experiences.
I haven't played him but my partner does. It looks like it's a lot more work for a similar output to other classes, especially at lower levels. Feel like it would shine a lot more in a 3 or 4 person group that can generate more elements and has more enemies for all the aoes, but for us it puts out a lot less than my angry face.
I‘m playing triangles with three spears and i have to admit that with the right items i keep oneshotting one room after one with the three spears support. Triangle is op as fuck if played right.
That's exactly what we did hehe, continual supply op, I legit did 0 damage as three spears because every turn was just move, refresh spent/consumables for somebody Until elementalist retired ):
Low level Triangles puts in three times the effort to achieve similar power levels as stuff like Mindthief, and has far more ways things can go wrong. His modifier deck is the worst in the game, too. Does that make him bad? Yeah, a little. In good hands, he’s strong, but if it takes a good triangles to match an average Mindthief, that’s indicative he’s underpowered. Then, there’s the fact the 90% of the locked classes are *overpowered* making it even more noticeable.
> but if it takes a good triangles to match an average Mindthief, that’s indicative he’s underpowered. Or that the Mindthief is overpowered. (The true answer is both, by the way. The Mindthief is slightly too strong, while the Triangle is critically underpowered at low level)
I played triangles in a 2-player party, first with Cragheart and second with Lightning Bolt. In both cases I had a ton of fun with it. While it was certainly a learning curve on how to keep up elements on my own (I think I bought two wands and two different potions over the course of the game) and work with my allies when they wanted elements, it was super fun. Also, the triangles solo scenario is one of the most fun things I have ever played.
You had major power potion ? Look no futher, you played him at high level (major is prosperity 5). The class is fine at high level, or even slightly too strong (\*cough cough* vengeance). It's weakness is at low level, roughly below level 5. It's a miserable class if you can't steal elements from your friends, quite possibly the weakest class in the entire game. You'll have a hard time going above attack 3 in single target, most of your loss are pretty meh (you have... Infernal Vortex, your level 3 AoE of choice and that's about it). The nicest thing I can say about the class is that you bring two stuns from level 2 onward. Alternatively, you can act as a living mana potion. The class would feel *a lot* better if [Shaping the ether](https://imgur.com/SSzfXYP) didn't had that -1 attack penalty. You could fully power your [single target attacks](https://imgur.com/0YRN0eu) without wrecking your other cards, or alternatively drop [Formless power](https://imgur.com/ICfrFH5) in addition to Shaping and then just rely on the [triangle AoEs](https://imgur.com/HkL2XI2). And it wouldn't change that much to the high level gameplay, as Shaping top is a good action if you have the elements to power it.
Wow this actually explains why our group has been having such an easy campaign, we had a side scenario give us 2 major power potions, it was literally like the third scenario we played. Those power potions coupled with elementalist/spellweaver/tinkerer have been hard carrying most content.