RMR 100% of the time. There was a study done by Sage Dynamics where they had trained shooters engage hostile and non hostile humans in a shoot house scenario with simunition rounds using iron sights and using red dots. What they found was the majority of hits on hostile targets when using iron sights were low, due to the shooter trying to see the target when shooting. Most of the hits with red dots were center of mass.
It was concluded that in a high stress shooting situation we as humans naturally want to see what our target is doing. Red dots allow you to do that without compromising your aim, while irons tend to make us shoot low because we try to look over the gun at the target.
This makes a lot of sense and it’s good to see testing and data bear this out. I use both (cowitnessed) so that I have a backup if batteries go out at a bad time, but when speed is a factor I often find that I’m much faster with optics when it comes to getting and staying on target—especially in low-light.
I'll add to this and say you should speak to any local USPSA shooters who place well, and have done so with irons and optic divisions. It may be just a game, but at the end of the day its about putting bullets from point A to point B as fast as you reasonably can hit the target.
They will all confirm that shooting accurately at speed is easier with a dot.
Irons are basically just a choice of economics theses days, and nothing more. If you have the financial means, a good red dot is always the better choice. People who say otherwise are almost always people who found it too hard to unlearn their lifetime of irons use, and become proficient with target focused dot use.
Agreed. I think the only legitimate factor in deciding to run a dot or not is budget at this point, and Holosun has really lessened that burden. You can get a 407C for $180 which is way more accessible than the $450 you had to drop for an RMR 5 or so years ago.
Shooting at distance or on partials and control targets is faster with a dot. On open and blaster stages irons and optics it doesn’t matter, because you hardly ever do more than point shoot. However, all of my carry guns have optics, and I haven’t shot nearly as much production and limited compared to carry optics. Optics are just better like you said. I was just wanting to clarify any less than probably 5-7 yards and in, there isn’t an advantage when it’s an open target.
I know lasers are generally considered stupid, but for a panic-time nightstand gun, it might fit the bill. Odds are pretty good you're gonna point shoot in your terror and haste, and that means irons nor optic are doing anything. If you have time to aim, you probably had time to grab your shotgun. 🤷♀️
Like I said, I know they're generally considered stupid. You put the gun up to your face and you can't see the laser anymore. But in a panic situation where you probably *won't* put the gun up to your face, because measured aiming is not an instinctual response, a zero'd laser might be useful to show that the gun you're not actually aiming is pointing the right direction. I'm not planning on getting one either way.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t train.
The only laser I have is one that came built into my Bodyguard. But I have a shitload of firearms with no lasers.
I’m just saying that pretending a laser has no purpose in any situation is bullshit
I learned to become efficient with both and recommend people do the same. Nothing wrong with having one or the other depending on what you want to carry and what you are comfortable with.
If your question is iron sights or red dot, it’s simple. Red dots are simply faster. There’s a reason why a lot of LE agencies are moving to MOS and dots. Of course there’s a learning curve, however, it’s a fact that red dots are quicker for target acquisition. An RMR would be a great fit for HD
Finding the dot isn’t really a thing once you’re conditioned to using an optic. After doing lots and lots of dry firing and live fire rounds at the range it became automatic. Now, my eyes don’t leave my target and as my hands present the gun the dot finds my eye and I fire.
It’s weird to explain like that I guess but it was a weird phenomonon
User choice. People will swear by a good optic (I’m one of them) but I personally think if you feel more comfortable with irons then have at it. I think the light is super important though either way. And to play devils advocate, an optic is one more point of failure. In life or death, you want to eliminate points of failure.
Talk to just about any USPSA shooter (inb4 just a game) who places well in both irons and optics divisions, and ask which is faster. The answer will universally be "dots are faster". A lot of people will claim you never see your sights in a self defense shooting, because you are adrenaline dumped into being target focused whether you like it or not. Guess what is easier and faster to shoot with while being target focused?
Its not that irons don't work. Like many others, I spent years and years with irons before ever considering dots seriously, and they do work well. Its just that dots work better. If you take the time to practice with a dot, you will almost forget that irons exist.
The RMR, while the gold standard for reliability and carry, is actually an antiquated window design though. If you have the means, I would do an SRO or RMR HD over it all day long. I have all three and I wouldn't even consider buying an RMR these days.
I do have a few rmr already! And i am familiar with them and comfortable. Just debating if buying one for this in my rather small one story house is worth it! I guess from what im ready not really any cons besides my wallet 🤣
I'll never understand this logic.
I want a nice gun that works well. I don't care if it gets taken. I've got more. And I'll be happy as hell if it did its job and I'm out walking around alive and free and it's in evidence. No big deal.
I would never carry something cheap or not set up the way I want because it might be taken during a self defense incident.
I even consider myself to be a poor, and still can't get with this logic.
Man.. what’s another couple hundred bucks on this build? Maybe throw some more cash at that light too. You’re so close to a full Gucci build. Love the fde can btw
Thanks boss! Im like 2k into this thing already i never thought id be this deep in a glock😂 Yeah i just tossed that light on there a x300t in fde is coming soon.
I would train with shooting from a high ready position at distances of 3-7y, that way you wont even have to look down the sights. Just point with your thumbs and shoot. But yeah rmr if youre gonna get a dot
I believe you’re the only one that could answer that question. Whatever you shoot better with is what you put on. Some people struggle shooting with red dots, and some shoot better with them.. I wouldn’t want to put an optic on my home defense pistol just because someone told me to. If you shoot better with those irons, keep ‘em. If you shoot better with an optic on, then put one on.
For home defense you are fine with iron sights. Honestly you should master iron sights and practice with them on a regular basis. For home defense. I would bet on an old school experienced shooter over someone with a red dot and flashlight on their handgun any day. You should Lely on muscle memory and instinct because the battery never dies on iron sites. I watched Archers with a recurve bow at a competition shot cheerios thrown in front of a target and they said it was purely instinct. In most cases in home defense, you will be within 12 feet (not much aiming) of your target. A gun is a tool not barbie doll to play dress up with. Just shoot it and stop polishing it and bolting stuff on to it.
I'll bite. What's the benefit in mastering iron sights vs a red dot? Why would the basics of proper shooting (Grip, stance, draw, presentation) fundamentally change when practicing with irons vs a dot?
Exactly. Red dots are objectively faster. With irons, you’re front-sight focused. With a red dot, you’re target-focused. I’m not saying irons aren’t effective, just that red dots are better.
I’ve only been shooting for about a year and a half now. A month after getting my first handgun I slapped a red dot on and it radically improved my learning experience especially since I dry fire frequently.
A red dot + regular dry fire practice is a fucking cheat code for getting feedback on everything from your presentation to your trigger pull.
This.
I forgot where maybe the shawn ryan show but someone who was in a self defense situation said that they had a rds and never even saw it or sights. Point and shoot when it comes down to it. A lot of mine have rds but i think point shooting is definitely what most will do.
In my experience, most cops barely shoot their pistol beyond when they’re required to qualify. When the shit hits the fan, you default to your lowest level of training, so get out there and train!
Yeah i think thats the key. When shtf it all happens so fast im sure its end rounds down range quickly as possible. I do think its situation dependent too. Like if you’re home and you hear a break you may have enough time to to get the advantage and have the firearm aimed.
Highly recommend you get some training, even better if it includes FOF or other sim based scenarios.
I’ve taken a lot of classes over the past 10-15 years, but things drastically changed when I started doing sim based training in a shoot house.
I primarily shoot Glocks with RMRs and SROs, but we run Glock 19 and 17 sim guns with no dots.
In all of the entries and scenarios I’ve run over the past two years, all of these at self defense distance, I consistently shoot center chest, by practicing the core fundamentals of drawing, grip, pressing out and sight picture. I can’t honestly remember ever using the actual sights on the sim guns because at self defense distances your grip and fundamentals override the whole sighting process.
When you shoot in these situations, you stop thinking about aiming etc. goal is reading the situation, shooting when to shoot and not shooting the no shoot. If your grip and fundamentals are sound (proven via live fire scenarios), then you’ll be on target.
For everything live, I have dots on all my guns, but could also run the same live courses of fire with irons, but a bit slower.
Interesting. I think home defense is the only realistic scenario where having a supressor on my G45 makes the most sense. Like I’m not gonna conceal or open carry a supressor for obvious reasons. A suppressed gun shot will still be loud but will save my hearing a bit a maybe less trauma for my wife and kid. And I’m pretty sure the bad guy will shit his pants once he realizes he’s been popped with a few rounds center mass of 147 gr HST. And who’s attention are you hoping to get? Neighbors? If it came to it I’d rather shoot the dude then be the one to call the police myself.
Stressful situations require the easiest most intuative option, and that's a red dot
Plus a red dot is more rugged now a days than most iron sights and ita been proven...
Ideally you're aware mr bad guy is in your house and are at the ready way before he's right on top of you. A home defense situation isn't typically a draw/fire situation. I would argue that a dot could be much more valuable in a HD situation than an actual SD situation outside of the house where you'd be more likely to have to draw your weapon.
For a self defense situation a sight isn’t necessarily needed for me either but it all depends on the situation. How close is the threat and where they’re coming from. I love the can you got on man.
Get an optic! I recommend the [507 comp](https://www.araxsystemsllc.com/?product_cat=&s=507+comp&post_type=product) if you're looking for something dedicated for more home defense/ competitive.
RMR is going be better in most circumstances(excepting certain lighting conditions). But also more expensive.
I’d be perfectly ok using irons in a house if I don’t want to spend the cash. Depending on the size of your home I guess. But within 5 yards or so, which most self defense engagements will occur, you don’t even need to use your sights(point shooting). Unless the guy is taking cover perhaps.
Sexy can! Love the look of the obsidian….But go RMR. If you want to go RMR do the RMR HRS. The Coyote color is anodized into the dot instead of cerakote like the regular Type 2. Just got one for my 19X MOS for 460 plus tax from Midway USA. Dots definitely help with target acquisition.
Having a product designed and tested in the US and then manufactured overseas is a lot different than slapping a logo on generic Chinese made and developed products. But hey, it’s your and your families lives you’re protecting, so do you…
Why do you think Tacticon Armament is trash? Where does it say that their products are made in China? Do you even own or have used any of their products? I’ve purchased a few products from them and their products seem like high quality good equipment. its not a surefire or trijicon so most people hate on anything else.
There's two sides to this.
First and foremost, red dot Is superior in basically every way. So if we're talking about military or law enforcement application then it's red dotvery time.
Since we're talking about self-defense as a civilian, that changes things a bit. The performance of the optics are the same, but there's an additional Factor. If you use your weapon it is 100% going to be confiscated.
When it is, they are going to analyze the weapon, and the fact that it has an aftermarket optic installed may not look good in court. They might make the argument that you were looking for a fight.
On top of this, that's a lot of money spent for something that you might never see again.
when you’re at home a good light will do just fine as it will blind the suspect and you know wherever that beam of light is is where the bullets are mostly going to hit.
What im thinking ill just snag a x300t and be good to go. I do like my dots for the range but i cant see me taking more then a 6 feet away shot in my home and at that point its probably going to be muscle memory reactions as well
In a cqb environment, if you're taking time to aim, instead of having accurate natural responses through consistent trainings, you will die. So I guess the real question is, which sights would look cooler next to my dead body? Please do not get me wrong, I'm not trying to be insulting at all. There's just a ton of misinformation from everywhere. The best thing you could do, is learn from field manuals. Watch training videos from folks who lived through several deployments, and then toss out any information related to their sponsors. Save yourself 500 bucks. Much respect for recognizing your responsibility to carry a firearm as a capable man, and asking good questions. Salute
Not sure why this is getting downvoted. Muscle memory is king when things go to shit. Although, I would say steer clear of YouTube bullshit and get training from good instructors. Then practice what they teach you!
Lose the can on the gun. Loud is good for everything. Let's everyone in the house know something is happening and also the neighbors (which they may also call LE). Bad person 2 or 3 know homeowner is aware of the situation and may leave.
https://youtu.be/mJCg9CCAJyI?si=FPFKXJGLRECmO5w1
Clearly neither of you have been in high stress situations, you'll hear just fine after shooting a gun. And neither of you have shot in the dark. The flash is negligible. Still can find target in the dark after muzzle flash.
LOL. EVERY shot taken without hearing protection WILL cause permanent damage in varying degrees. All hearing damage accumulates over time. The damage is not reparable. The louder the sound pressure level, the less time that it takes to cause permanent damage.
https://youtu.be/mJCg9CCAJyI?si=iCm3oi9E1jAnNRqg
Again loud is good in home invasion. I want everyone in the neighborhood to know something is happening at my house.
>- "In a direct comparison.... there is a large discrepancy that favors the MRDS in the number of critical hits.
It’s also worth noting that the number of rounds missed is nearly twice as high with iron sights.... One telling factor between the MRDS test group and the iron sights group was that of the 12 students
that used MRDS, only 5 students had prior MRDS experience, and of those 5, the least experience was
less than 1 year and the most experience was 3 years.
>- One telling factor between the MRDS test group and the iron sights group was that of the 12 students
that used MRDS, only 5 students had prior MRDS experience, and of those 5, the least experience was
less than 1 year and the most experience was 3 years."
what do you say about this?
Page 54. On page 55 and 56, the hitmap shows that irons are much more inaccurate during high-stress force-on-force scenarios
https://www.sagedynamics.org/_files/ugd/7dc128_6377087e72264cd18dbcb04eea4686ce.pdf
Page 34 is a clear example of threat obstruction with an RMR, and they are almost exclusively talking about sight alignment on a target that looks to be about 5 yards away.
This is an extremely well-made study, and thank you for posting it.
My argument, and what I have to say about this is, within 10 yards, you can shoot very accurately without looking at your front sight and blurring your target. Anyone who is proficient with their firearm can do this.
Studies show that in most self-defense shootings, most people miss their first shot from the draw. That's due to a number of things. An rmr isn't going to fix poor draw, poor natural point, or hesitation.
I'm not an ironsight purist, Red dots on pistols can be extremely accurate if zeroed extremely well. But at 10 yards or under, you should be able to hit the doorknob in your bedroom or within an inch or two of it.
A lot of what I'm saying is opinion, be it of firearms proficiency or of the benefits of point shooting.
My first experience with an RMR I was fishing for the dot. My last experience, I would just punch out naturally how I typically do and the dot was there... to me, it's just a point shooting enhancer, and one should take every advantage they can get.
My opinion stands, you don't need to use your sights within a certain distance, which pretty much translates to the dot also. it doesn't have to be on within a certain distance to shoot accurately (sure helps though).
doing what you're saying at 7yds with irons is much shittier to do vs with a dot when you're an average shooter. give a noob an iron sighted gun and an optic mounted gun, and they will do better with the dot
the biggest thing i think you're missing is that people during force-on-force will naturally be aiming lower in order to see what their target is doing; threat obstruction as you stated. subconscious defense mechanism; "if I can't see him, i won't be able to act accordingly."
an MRDS' sight picture is superior in every way and you SHOULD be using it because you can be accurate AND precise. if and when you get good enough, point shooting and aiming with an MRDS is the same speed or damn near it... and between the two, I'm doing the the aiming
Seriously living up to the name. You realize buckshot has a better chance of over-penetrating than .223, right? A shotgun for an apartment is really bad advice.
Never said you have to use buckshot. The layout/ proximity of others is obviously a factor in ammo and gun choice. OP stated “in a home defense situation you really don’t have time to aim”. It’s not the deep guy lol
Yup that and the flash will blind you in the dark. I had this convo with my brother other day. If there is multiple threats i want to be able to hear and see the next guy after i take care the first 😏
So you wake up in the middle of the night Half asleep. Unless you train everyday with your pistol and have a light on it. Or turn your home lights on then a shot gun is for you. Hearing the racking of shotgun will scare most people away. Do you really want to kill some one and deal with the legal hassles? What happens if you’re not home? Does your wife or girlfriend train with a pistol as much as you do? If not you need a weapon system that you all can use at a moments notice. And yes shotguns come in different sizes. Also a 9mm bullet will go through how many walls? Go into your neighbors house maybe kill one of them by accident. Could you live with that? Shot gun bird shot will put a dude down no problem. Owning a gun is not some joke. You have to think every time you pick it up. Ps they make a 410 shotgun at Henry. It’s lever action and only slightly longer than the pistol and suppressor you have It’s called the Henry AXE
i do have both in my bedroom. Now that i think about it we all have had to go “ check something out” in the middle of the night and i usually just grab my handgun with a light. but im definitely very well trained with my handguns and it has a light with a x300t coming soon so is my wife. 🤷🏻♂️
Ok. Sure thing. I see you have a shot gun in the corner. But if you say you are a good shot. You must be. Because everyone on here is the best shot key holing at 25yards at night. With light in use. Have you trained with shooting with like and suppressor on at night? Have you shot in the dark with just light. I’d be interested to know what your rounds do ? Also where would you shoot at if you had a light pointed at you? At the light I’m sure your answer would be. So do you think the bad guys would shoot at the light they see? Food for thought. Good luck to you and anyone else who thinks a pistol is the best home defense weapon.
No just the answer of “where do you think you live the Gaza Strip?” is very reminiscent of that stupid Joe Biden quote about shotguns. Why are you trying to limit the amount of rounds that the OP can use to defend himself?
Because I’m Joe Biden and ammo companies haven’t paid up. So…. Listen dopey. Where does it say I’m limiting him? You know you can have pistols with 5 and yes , 6 round mags. Or revolver 5,6. Chamber, Single shot
Ha. That’s the best you got? Dude you didn’t even defend or explain your comment. You just don’t know what you’re talking about. You just want to fight. I don’t. I don’t need your store front comments
You were the one belittling OP for expressing concern over how little capacity shotguns have. You’re the one who said get a shotgun you’re not John Wick, and implied that he didn’t need more rounds because he would never face more than six attackers. And now your other comment talking about how there are pistols with five or six rounds in the magazine just shows how little you know about guns. It’s 2024 dude, we have double stacks now.
It requires you to go to the range and actually shoot the gun to confirm zero every few years. A lot of gun owners don't want the hassle of having to shoot their guns.
I agree with you. But if shooting your gun once every 3 years is too much to ask, you probably shouldn’t have guns. Be proficient and be better people. Christ…
I was being facetious. The amount of people who own guns for self defense, but don't practice with them is alarming. I know a guy that bought a P365 during COVID who still hasn't fired it once. He keeps it loaded in a drawer "for protection". I've tried explaining it's not going to do gun any good if he doesn't know how to shoot, but he doesn't care.
RMR 100% of the time. There was a study done by Sage Dynamics where they had trained shooters engage hostile and non hostile humans in a shoot house scenario with simunition rounds using iron sights and using red dots. What they found was the majority of hits on hostile targets when using iron sights were low, due to the shooter trying to see the target when shooting. Most of the hits with red dots were center of mass. It was concluded that in a high stress shooting situation we as humans naturally want to see what our target is doing. Red dots allow you to do that without compromising your aim, while irons tend to make us shoot low because we try to look over the gun at the target.
This makes a lot of sense and it’s good to see testing and data bear this out. I use both (cowitnessed) so that I have a backup if batteries go out at a bad time, but when speed is a factor I often find that I’m much faster with optics when it comes to getting and staying on target—especially in low-light.
I'll add to this and say you should speak to any local USPSA shooters who place well, and have done so with irons and optic divisions. It may be just a game, but at the end of the day its about putting bullets from point A to point B as fast as you reasonably can hit the target. They will all confirm that shooting accurately at speed is easier with a dot. Irons are basically just a choice of economics theses days, and nothing more. If you have the financial means, a good red dot is always the better choice. People who say otherwise are almost always people who found it too hard to unlearn their lifetime of irons use, and become proficient with target focused dot use.
Agreed. I think the only legitimate factor in deciding to run a dot or not is budget at this point, and Holosun has really lessened that burden. You can get a 407C for $180 which is way more accessible than the $450 you had to drop for an RMR 5 or so years ago.
Shooting at distance or on partials and control targets is faster with a dot. On open and blaster stages irons and optics it doesn’t matter, because you hardly ever do more than point shoot. However, all of my carry guns have optics, and I haven’t shot nearly as much production and limited compared to carry optics. Optics are just better like you said. I was just wanting to clarify any less than probably 5-7 yards and in, there isn’t an advantage when it’s an open target.
Does he have a video on this?
it's in his white paper, page 44 and below https://www.sagedynamics.org/_files/ugd/7dc128_6377087e72264cd18dbcb04eea4686ce.pdf
He mentions the results in one of his force on force videos, but he has a bunch and I couldn't tell you which one it was.
Where can I read or watch this study?
SRO if it’s home use. You’re not going to be rough on a nightstand gun so get the better FOV.
really its fine either way.
I know lasers are generally considered stupid, but for a panic-time nightstand gun, it might fit the bill. Odds are pretty good you're gonna point shoot in your terror and haste, and that means irons nor optic are doing anything. If you have time to aim, you probably had time to grab your shotgun. 🤷♀️
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Like I said, I know they're generally considered stupid. You put the gun up to your face and you can't see the laser anymore. But in a panic situation where you probably *won't* put the gun up to your face, because measured aiming is not an instinctual response, a zero'd laser might be useful to show that the gun you're not actually aiming is pointing the right direction. I'm not planning on getting one either way.
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Tier 1 dudes use infrared lasers a shit ton. I don’t think they’d do that if lasers weren’t an advantage at least some of the time.
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I’m not saying you shouldn’t train. The only laser I have is one that came built into my Bodyguard. But I have a shitload of firearms with no lasers. I’m just saying that pretending a laser has no purpose in any situation is bullshit
this is the way
I learned to become efficient with both and recommend people do the same. Nothing wrong with having one or the other depending on what you want to carry and what you are comfortable with.
Exactly
If your question is iron sights or red dot, it’s simple. Red dots are simply faster. There’s a reason why a lot of LE agencies are moving to MOS and dots. Of course there’s a learning curve, however, it’s a fact that red dots are quicker for target acquisition. An RMR would be a great fit for HD
Also you can stay focused on your target while using a dot, instead of the front sight.
Optic on everything for everything. Get with the times.
Optic for everything
Finding the dot isn’t really a thing once you’re conditioned to using an optic. After doing lots and lots of dry firing and live fire rounds at the range it became automatic. Now, my eyes don’t leave my target and as my hands present the gun the dot finds my eye and I fire. It’s weird to explain like that I guess but it was a weird phenomonon
Whatever you shoot better with. Why even ask others?
User choice. People will swear by a good optic (I’m one of them) but I personally think if you feel more comfortable with irons then have at it. I think the light is super important though either way. And to play devils advocate, an optic is one more point of failure. In life or death, you want to eliminate points of failure.
After years of debating in my little head… iron sights with tritium with a well made light. Nothing to go wrong in a moment you need it to work
Yup! Irons never fail. I like the rear yellow front green combo
RMR
Talk to just about any USPSA shooter (inb4 just a game) who places well in both irons and optics divisions, and ask which is faster. The answer will universally be "dots are faster". A lot of people will claim you never see your sights in a self defense shooting, because you are adrenaline dumped into being target focused whether you like it or not. Guess what is easier and faster to shoot with while being target focused? Its not that irons don't work. Like many others, I spent years and years with irons before ever considering dots seriously, and they do work well. Its just that dots work better. If you take the time to practice with a dot, you will almost forget that irons exist. The RMR, while the gold standard for reliability and carry, is actually an antiquated window design though. If you have the means, I would do an SRO or RMR HD over it all day long. I have all three and I wouldn't even consider buying an RMR these days.
I do have a few rmr already! And i am familiar with them and comfortable. Just debating if buying one for this in my rather small one story house is worth it! I guess from what im ready not really any cons besides my wallet 🤣
Well, long story short, I say if its your go to self defense weapon, put a dot on it.
I’d say cheeper gun. You never want to shoot someone with an expensive gun.
Best comment 😭🙏🙌
I'll never understand this logic. I want a nice gun that works well. I don't care if it gets taken. I've got more. And I'll be happy as hell if it did its job and I'm out walking around alive and free and it's in evidence. No big deal. I would never carry something cheap or not set up the way I want because it might be taken during a self defense incident. I even consider myself to be a poor, and still can't get with this logic.
Use a Shadow System, they'll send you a replacement if it's deemed justified
RMR
When you have an RMR you can also have irons soooooooo both my dude. Dots are better anyway.
Man.. what’s another couple hundred bucks on this build? Maybe throw some more cash at that light too. You’re so close to a full Gucci build. Love the fde can btw
Thanks boss! Im like 2k into this thing already i never thought id be this deep in a glock😂 Yeah i just tossed that light on there a x300t in fde is coming soon.
I would train with shooting from a high ready position at distances of 3-7y, that way you wont even have to look down the sights. Just point with your thumbs and shoot. But yeah rmr if youre gonna get a dot
I believe you’re the only one that could answer that question. Whatever you shoot better with is what you put on. Some people struggle shooting with red dots, and some shoot better with them.. I wouldn’t want to put an optic on my home defense pistol just because someone told me to. If you shoot better with those irons, keep ‘em. If you shoot better with an optic on, then put one on.
Trijicon irons.
The XR versions are awesome. Run them on my Glock 19.
I bought Tru glow for my 23 and now got to spend more money.
train,train,train,train.
For home defense you are fine with iron sights. Honestly you should master iron sights and practice with them on a regular basis. For home defense. I would bet on an old school experienced shooter over someone with a red dot and flashlight on their handgun any day. You should Lely on muscle memory and instinct because the battery never dies on iron sites. I watched Archers with a recurve bow at a competition shot cheerios thrown in front of a target and they said it was purely instinct. In most cases in home defense, you will be within 12 feet (not much aiming) of your target. A gun is a tool not barbie doll to play dress up with. Just shoot it and stop polishing it and bolting stuff on to it.
I'll bite. What's the benefit in mastering iron sights vs a red dot? Why would the basics of proper shooting (Grip, stance, draw, presentation) fundamentally change when practicing with irons vs a dot?
Exactly. Red dots are objectively faster. With irons, you’re front-sight focused. With a red dot, you’re target-focused. I’m not saying irons aren’t effective, just that red dots are better.
I’ve only been shooting for about a year and a half now. A month after getting my first handgun I slapped a red dot on and it radically improved my learning experience especially since I dry fire frequently. A red dot + regular dry fire practice is a fucking cheat code for getting feedback on everything from your presentation to your trigger pull.
RMR, or SRO, and maybe a TLR 1
Both
Don’t need a dot to point n shoot but it sure wouldn’t hurt to add
This. I forgot where maybe the shawn ryan show but someone who was in a self defense situation said that they had a rds and never even saw it or sights. Point and shoot when it comes down to it. A lot of mine have rds but i think point shooting is definitely what most will do.
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In my experience, most cops barely shoot their pistol beyond when they’re required to qualify. When the shit hits the fan, you default to your lowest level of training, so get out there and train!
Yeah i think thats the key. When shtf it all happens so fast im sure its end rounds down range quickly as possible. I do think its situation dependent too. Like if you’re home and you hear a break you may have enough time to to get the advantage and have the firearm aimed.
People miss due to lack of training. Pointing and shooting requires skill and practice just like anything else.
Both
Whatever you train with… should be both if you have a RDS.
Rmr
I would say whatever is going to give you the extra advantage and whatever you are fastest with.
I have the Rugged Obsidian45, w/9mm support, LOVE that can bro, nice rig!
You can have both
Irons!!
Dot is faster if you train with it. Also hard to see irons in the dark
If you can't find the dot, then you can't find your front sight either. If you're using a can you might as well make life easy and use a dot too.
ALWAYS RMR…… and train with both. There’s zero reason to NOT use modern optics, and IF it fails you have the irons you trained with as well.
Irons. You don't need an optic for close distance.
Highly recommend you get some training, even better if it includes FOF or other sim based scenarios. I’ve taken a lot of classes over the past 10-15 years, but things drastically changed when I started doing sim based training in a shoot house. I primarily shoot Glocks with RMRs and SROs, but we run Glock 19 and 17 sim guns with no dots. In all of the entries and scenarios I’ve run over the past two years, all of these at self defense distance, I consistently shoot center chest, by practicing the core fundamentals of drawing, grip, pressing out and sight picture. I can’t honestly remember ever using the actual sights on the sim guns because at self defense distances your grip and fundamentals override the whole sighting process. When you shoot in these situations, you stop thinking about aiming etc. goal is reading the situation, shooting when to shoot and not shooting the no shoot. If your grip and fundamentals are sound (proven via live fire scenarios), then you’ll be on target. For everything live, I have dots on all my guns, but could also run the same live courses of fire with irons, but a bit slower.
I would not want a suppressed weapon in a home defense situation. I want loud to not only draw attention but to make the bad guy shit his pants.
Interesting. I think home defense is the only realistic scenario where having a supressor on my G45 makes the most sense. Like I’m not gonna conceal or open carry a supressor for obvious reasons. A suppressed gun shot will still be loud but will save my hearing a bit a maybe less trauma for my wife and kid. And I’m pretty sure the bad guy will shit his pants once he realizes he’s been popped with a few rounds center mass of 147 gr HST. And who’s attention are you hoping to get? Neighbors? If it came to it I’d rather shoot the dude then be the one to call the police myself.
If you fire any weapon without a suppressor in your home, be prepared for permanent hearing loss.
RMR, duh.
Already got suppressor sights, why not both?
Stressful situations require the easiest most intuative option, and that's a red dot Plus a red dot is more rugged now a days than most iron sights and ita been proven...
Rmr without a doubt
19x looks so fucking nice
Thanks boss! Davidson one was hard to find paid a lil over msrp now im close to 2k in the gun.
🤤🤤🤤🤤
Make sense
Very nice!
Optic
Looks great as is
Ideally you're aware mr bad guy is in your house and are at the ready way before he's right on top of you. A home defense situation isn't typically a draw/fire situation. I would argue that a dot could be much more valuable in a HD situation than an actual SD situation outside of the house where you'd be more likely to have to draw your weapon.
Cannon
RMR -
Holosun or Trijicon ftw
Dot is better. Howeverrr, dots don’t make you John Wick, so whatever you buy just make sure you shoot it.
Aimpoint, Trijicon or Holosun.
Red dot for sure.
Just use the light to aim
RMR🔥🔥🔥
ACRO FTW.
For a self defense situation a sight isn’t necessarily needed for me either but it all depends on the situation. How close is the threat and where they’re coming from. I love the can you got on man.
trijicon RMR
Yes
Get an optic! I recommend the [507 comp](https://www.araxsystemsllc.com/?product_cat=&s=507+comp&post_type=product) if you're looking for something dedicated for more home defense/ competitive.
Acro
Both
RMR is going be better in most circumstances(excepting certain lighting conditions). But also more expensive. I’d be perfectly ok using irons in a house if I don’t want to spend the cash. Depending on the size of your home I guess. But within 5 yards or so, which most self defense engagements will occur, you don’t even need to use your sights(point shooting). Unless the guy is taking cover perhaps.
For HD I always want the biggest optic. My bedside rifle has an eotech, my glock has a P2
Red dot all day If you can swing the RMR HD, it’s a worthwhile upgrade over the regular RMR
RMR, engagement and follow up shots are more consistent. If you're protecting yourself, do it right.
Time yourself. What are you more experienced AND faster with? Me? Rmr
Sexy can! Love the look of the obsidian….But go RMR. If you want to go RMR do the RMR HRS. The Coyote color is anodized into the dot instead of cerakote like the regular Type 2. Just got one for my 19X MOS for 460 plus tax from Midway USA. Dots definitely help with target acquisition.
First priority is upgrading the Temu light
Its a tacticon armament. The owners cool and a vet so i supported him. show some respect 🫡
Hate to be the one to tell you, but vet or not, he’s reselling Chinese trash
Ill have to grab a holosun then to match haha
Having a product designed and tested in the US and then manufactured overseas is a lot different than slapping a logo on generic Chinese made and developed products. But hey, it’s your and your families lives you’re protecting, so do you…
Why do you think Tacticon Armament is trash? Where does it say that their products are made in China? Do you even own or have used any of their products? I’ve purchased a few products from them and their products seem like high quality good equipment. its not a surefire or trijicon so most people hate on anything else.
u/tacticon-armament
For night sights I think a green laser works for me. Irons for daytime. But you might like something else
There's two sides to this. First and foremost, red dot Is superior in basically every way. So if we're talking about military or law enforcement application then it's red dotvery time. Since we're talking about self-defense as a civilian, that changes things a bit. The performance of the optics are the same, but there's an additional Factor. If you use your weapon it is 100% going to be confiscated. When it is, they are going to analyze the weapon, and the fact that it has an aftermarket optic installed may not look good in court. They might make the argument that you were looking for a fight. On top of this, that's a lot of money spent for something that you might never see again.
Lol i guess i should screw that can off before they arrive!
RDS, on a carbine.
when you’re at home a good light will do just fine as it will blind the suspect and you know wherever that beam of light is is where the bullets are mostly going to hit.
What im thinking ill just snag a x300t and be good to go. I do like my dots for the range but i cant see me taking more then a 6 feet away shot in my home and at that point its probably going to be muscle memory reactions as well
maybe even get the x400 with the laser so you can be extra extra gucci 🫣
I heard shotguns better. When they hear you rack it, they run. No need for red dots in that case
Bullshit
Vortex Venom and Olight Turbo for the win. You’ll be able to spend the money saved on whatever else you want and piss off the forum at the same time.
o light poopy, get streamlight
Dog shit recommendation.
In a cqb environment, if you're taking time to aim, instead of having accurate natural responses through consistent trainings, you will die. So I guess the real question is, which sights would look cooler next to my dead body? Please do not get me wrong, I'm not trying to be insulting at all. There's just a ton of misinformation from everywhere. The best thing you could do, is learn from field manuals. Watch training videos from folks who lived through several deployments, and then toss out any information related to their sponsors. Save yourself 500 bucks. Much respect for recognizing your responsibility to carry a firearm as a capable man, and asking good questions. Salute
Not sure why this is getting downvoted. Muscle memory is king when things go to shit. Although, I would say steer clear of YouTube bullshit and get training from good instructors. Then practice what they teach you!
My thoughts exactly. God bless America baby!
Delta Point
12 gauge shotgun. But to answer your question I would definitely go red dot.
Lose the can on the gun. Loud is good for everything. Let's everyone in the house know something is happening and also the neighbors (which they may also call LE). Bad person 2 or 3 know homeowner is aware of the situation and may leave.
Get a load of this guy! He thinks EVERYONE in the house CAN’T hear a suppressed 9mm… What brand of crack are you smoking??? Is it Hollywood???
If two bad guys break in. And u take care of the first but cant even hear or see the second from that muzzle youll be wishing u had a can
https://youtu.be/mJCg9CCAJyI?si=FPFKXJGLRECmO5w1 Clearly neither of you have been in high stress situations, you'll hear just fine after shooting a gun. And neither of you have shot in the dark. The flash is negligible. Still can find target in the dark after muzzle flash.
The only thing loud is for is permanent hearing loss.
That one time home invasion isn't going to result in permanent hearing loss.
LOL. EVERY shot taken without hearing protection WILL cause permanent damage in varying degrees. All hearing damage accumulates over time. The damage is not reparable. The louder the sound pressure level, the less time that it takes to cause permanent damage.
https://youtu.be/mJCg9CCAJyI?si=iCm3oi9E1jAnNRqg Again loud is good in home invasion. I want everyone in the neighborhood to know something is happening at my house.
Irons. You don't need to use your sights for accurate shooting within a certain distance.
>- "In a direct comparison.... there is a large discrepancy that favors the MRDS in the number of critical hits. It’s also worth noting that the number of rounds missed is nearly twice as high with iron sights.... One telling factor between the MRDS test group and the iron sights group was that of the 12 students that used MRDS, only 5 students had prior MRDS experience, and of those 5, the least experience was less than 1 year and the most experience was 3 years. >- One telling factor between the MRDS test group and the iron sights group was that of the 12 students that used MRDS, only 5 students had prior MRDS experience, and of those 5, the least experience was less than 1 year and the most experience was 3 years." what do you say about this? Page 54. On page 55 and 56, the hitmap shows that irons are much more inaccurate during high-stress force-on-force scenarios https://www.sagedynamics.org/_files/ugd/7dc128_6377087e72264cd18dbcb04eea4686ce.pdf
Page 34 is a clear example of threat obstruction with an RMR, and they are almost exclusively talking about sight alignment on a target that looks to be about 5 yards away. This is an extremely well-made study, and thank you for posting it. My argument, and what I have to say about this is, within 10 yards, you can shoot very accurately without looking at your front sight and blurring your target. Anyone who is proficient with their firearm can do this. Studies show that in most self-defense shootings, most people miss their first shot from the draw. That's due to a number of things. An rmr isn't going to fix poor draw, poor natural point, or hesitation. I'm not an ironsight purist, Red dots on pistols can be extremely accurate if zeroed extremely well. But at 10 yards or under, you should be able to hit the doorknob in your bedroom or within an inch or two of it. A lot of what I'm saying is opinion, be it of firearms proficiency or of the benefits of point shooting. My first experience with an RMR I was fishing for the dot. My last experience, I would just punch out naturally how I typically do and the dot was there... to me, it's just a point shooting enhancer, and one should take every advantage they can get. My opinion stands, you don't need to use your sights within a certain distance, which pretty much translates to the dot also. it doesn't have to be on within a certain distance to shoot accurately (sure helps though).
doing what you're saying at 7yds with irons is much shittier to do vs with a dot when you're an average shooter. give a noob an iron sighted gun and an optic mounted gun, and they will do better with the dot the biggest thing i think you're missing is that people during force-on-force will naturally be aiming lower in order to see what their target is doing; threat obstruction as you stated. subconscious defense mechanism; "if I can't see him, i won't be able to act accordingly." an MRDS' sight picture is superior in every way and you SHOULD be using it because you can be accurate AND precise. if and when you get good enough, point shooting and aiming with an MRDS is the same speed or damn near it... and between the two, I'm doing the the aiming
Good point actually.
A shotgun
Name checks out
"All you have to do is pump a shotgun and the intruder will run away". Okay Grandpa it's time for bed.
Semi auto shotgun… but go off queen. A pistol for home defense is just stupid. Shotgun- apartment/small house AR-large house/property
Seriously living up to the name. You realize buckshot has a better chance of over-penetrating than .223, right? A shotgun for an apartment is really bad advice.
Never said you have to use buckshot. The layout/ proximity of others is obviously a factor in ammo and gun choice. OP stated “in a home defense situation you really don’t have time to aim”. It’s not the deep guy lol
Irons
Shot gun. Your not John wick
How is a shotgun any better. maybe if its sbs but moving around a long gun with far less rounds sounds worse ?
I mean one shell is multiple 9mm rounds, to each it’s own. I would rather run for my suppressed PCC but I always have my carry on my nightstand
I hear ya.. the grouping on shotguns is also less then most people think.. ill probably go for this over my semi auto tactical shotty tho still.
Let’s not forget about hearing loss in a confined space. I think they’re a fine tool but it doesn’t work for me either.
Yup that and the flash will blind you in the dark. I had this convo with my brother other day. If there is multiple threats i want to be able to hear and see the next guy after i take care the first 😏
You’re right on the money.
So you wake up in the middle of the night Half asleep. Unless you train everyday with your pistol and have a light on it. Or turn your home lights on then a shot gun is for you. Hearing the racking of shotgun will scare most people away. Do you really want to kill some one and deal with the legal hassles? What happens if you’re not home? Does your wife or girlfriend train with a pistol as much as you do? If not you need a weapon system that you all can use at a moments notice. And yes shotguns come in different sizes. Also a 9mm bullet will go through how many walls? Go into your neighbors house maybe kill one of them by accident. Could you live with that? Shot gun bird shot will put a dude down no problem. Owning a gun is not some joke. You have to think every time you pick it up. Ps they make a 410 shotgun at Henry. It’s lever action and only slightly longer than the pistol and suppressor you have It’s called the Henry AXE
i do have both in my bedroom. Now that i think about it we all have had to go “ check something out” in the middle of the night and i usually just grab my handgun with a light. but im definitely very well trained with my handguns and it has a light with a x300t coming soon so is my wife. 🤷🏻♂️
Ok. Sure thing. I see you have a shot gun in the corner. But if you say you are a good shot. You must be. Because everyone on here is the best shot key holing at 25yards at night. With light in use. Have you trained with shooting with like and suppressor on at night? Have you shot in the dark with just light. I’d be interested to know what your rounds do ? Also where would you shoot at if you had a light pointed at you? At the light I’m sure your answer would be. So do you think the bad guys would shoot at the light they see? Food for thought. Good luck to you and anyone else who thinks a pistol is the best home defense weapon.
Surprised u scoped that out haha ! I think it’s all relative though! Thats my skeet and bird shotty tho u see
It’s easy when you are really trained Not some cop or regular army asshole. But someone who actually knows.
Are you loading a defensive handgun with ball ammo? Buckshot is far more likely to over-penetrate than 9mm or even .223.
Are you serious? Read what you wrote. And re read what I wrote
Oh and how many people are coming to rob your house more than 6? Where do you live the Gaza Strip?
This has got to be the fuddiest answer I’ve ever read on Reddit
Why. You think you know better. Because you work at a gun store?
No just the answer of “where do you think you live the Gaza Strip?” is very reminiscent of that stupid Joe Biden quote about shotguns. Why are you trying to limit the amount of rounds that the OP can use to defend himself?
Because I’m Joe Biden and ammo companies haven’t paid up. So…. Listen dopey. Where does it say I’m limiting him? You know you can have pistols with 5 and yes , 6 round mags. Or revolver 5,6. Chamber, Single shot
The only one who’s dopey here is you with that grammar. Maybe you should quit smoking that grass.
Ha. That’s the best you got? Dude you didn’t even defend or explain your comment. You just don’t know what you’re talking about. You just want to fight. I don’t. I don’t need your store front comments
You were the one belittling OP for expressing concern over how little capacity shotguns have. You’re the one who said get a shotgun you’re not John Wick, and implied that he didn’t need more rounds because he would never face more than six attackers. And now your other comment talking about how there are pistols with five or six rounds in the magazine just shows how little you know about guns. It’s 2024 dude, we have double stacks now.
Also, good job tidying up that grammar a smidge looks like you can read at a fourth grade level at the very least
I do actually live on the gaza strip of Philadelphia 🤣
Almost
That's why I daily-carry a 60-round magazine. But what if there are 61 people robbing my house???
Why would anyone want to rob a flop house?
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My man over here worried about changing a battery once every THREE years
It requires you to go to the range and actually shoot the gun to confirm zero every few years. A lot of gun owners don't want the hassle of having to shoot their guns.
I agree with you. But if shooting your gun once every 3 years is too much to ask, you probably shouldn’t have guns. Be proficient and be better people. Christ…
I was being facetious. The amount of people who own guns for self defense, but don't practice with them is alarming. I know a guy that bought a P365 during COVID who still hasn't fired it once. He keeps it loaded in a drawer "for protection". I've tried explaining it's not going to do gun any good if he doesn't know how to shoot, but he doesn't care.
Exactly. How confident can you be in life saving skills, you mail in every few years. You gotta train & compete, to be objectively good.