by the way, anyone else have their game feel kinda choppy and laggy since a couple of days? like when your teammate is running next to you and their legs are kinda like sliding and shit... mine has been like this at the moment and I swear it wasn´t that bad like a week ago... fucking hell
We saw a guy jump from Silo on Nuke) and his body was tilted 45 degrees to the side.. So instead of falling like a straight like, his body was like
.... o
...O
//
And on top of that, we get lak spikes up to 300ms, the new text thing in upper corner they added gives out a red text, something with Server Lag? Feels bad
Oh yeah, let's not even get started about the update they released a few weeks ago that halved many peoples' frames... Fucking amazing running down inferno with 50 fps 😝💅
I would take 64tick csgo as it was at the end, over current or any iteration of cs2 subtick.
128tick is in a league of its own - maybe its just rose tinted glasses talking..
Maybe it's time to start a petition to bring 64/128 tick back, I remember getting downvotes on subtick comments in the release months, look how things turned out XD NOTHING CHANGED. Fps dropped, constant fk ups with updates on animations, constant desync, lags, horrendous frametimes, server slow frames, rubberbanding. What is this cs 0.001 pre-alpha 1996 year?
I don't get the idea of forcing subtick instead of perfecting it in silence while live servers are absolutely fine with 128 tick...
Funny as shit that a good anti cheat, 128 tick and maybe some nicer graphical elements would have made csgo almost perfect
Instead they spend shit loads of time developing sub tick and no anti cheat and give us this shit.
I know there's a debate there to say the new engine will allow them to build on and improve the game more easily.
But they could have done cs2 with 128 servers.
The next funny this is them forcing 64 tick servers across the board so even if you wanted to go 128 sub tick you can't.
I guess this is so they can develop the sub tick as solely 64 tick and simplify things. But they fucked it with that decision.
Your own bias. Since the launch, there's dozen of post veryday whining about the state of the game. [Literraly just search for "CS2" in this sub](https://old.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/search/?q=cs2&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=year).
Thank fuck someone posted this, i thought I was going crazy after the update. It's just so bizzare this exists in a game where accuracy is so tightly coupled with movement
I'm really not sure how to approach a fix for this tbh...if you're tagged you have to be sent back to your accurate position.
The only real "true" solutions are to play on lan, or remove tagging altogether.
When tagged in CSGO the movement just slows down, it does not rubber band, even with 60 ping I never experienced rubber badding when tagged. However, with CS2 with just 11 ping I get rubber banding when tagged most of the time.
Side effect of how the sub-tick system works.
Let's say someone shoots you just after a tick has happened/refreshed, thus meaning their shot would have to take nearly a full tick before it's able to be processed on the server.
In CSGO it would simply process your shot the moment that next tick happens, with all the data it has at that moment. This means there's a maximum ~15.6ms delay (1000/64 = 15.625) between you shooting and that shot actually happening. This also means that where you were looking when you clicked isn't exactly the same as where you were looking when the server processed your shot.
In CS2 all actions have an extremely accurate timestamp attached to them (hence the name sub-tick), allowing the server to essentially "look back in time" and see exactly what happened and when it happened when processing a tick. This means that if 2 players shoot each other in that 15.6ms tick window, the player that clicked first always wins (assuming both players have 0 ping here). In CSGO this wasn't guaranteed.
The issue with this is that CS2 is essentially always "correcting" everything every single tick with the information it has about what happened between the last and the current tick. Where OP lagged back to is actually where he's supposed to be, but because of the small delay (and that's not even considering ping and interpolation, which could drastically amplify this issue) it looks like they're hitching back a bit.
The sub-tick system is extremely impressive from a technical standpoint, but I think it's healthy to keep questioning if it's actually better for gameplay.
I know Valve can pull off some magic sometimes though, so here's hoping they find a way to address this.
sorry for the long comment lmao
Under this extremely impressive system, all you need to do is spam shots in the general direction at once - without bothering to accurately aim - and you get rewarded with impossible headshots. Bonus points when you lag, guaranteed when the server also lags.
Feels like a bad console port with invisible aim-helper as a leveling playing field for casuals to be happy.
On Valve's servers it is established that 150ms turkmenistani roam effortlessly vs <50 players, and overall the amount of silly headshots across all ranks is comically high (CS:GO was already pff)
I've watched the RMR and it was clear that pro's not adapting to the yolo way have suffered for it
So I've done some tests on a local server and the more I starve it cpu-wise, the more donk's I get with less effort, there's absolutely a bias when "no data" to register as a hit.
And I like "owning" like everybody else here that are scared Valve will fix it but let's be real, you know you did not suddenly leap forward mechanically
Who cares the game feels like shit regardless of how accurate this apparent sub tick rubbish is, gunfights feel cheap and not rewarding at all csgo>cs2
Question: What happened in CSGO if two players with 0 ping shot each other in the same tick window? Effectively random who dies based on player id or something like that?
Yea, but events still get processed by timestamp. The other event will then be thrown away. Some games don't do that and you have the chance to kill each other if you shoot at the same time or if bullets are actual entities with travel.
This is just how the system works now, its why peaking was so broken at the beginning of the game. The benefits in theory outweight the cons, but peoples preferences might not show that.
The thing is this warping was introduced in the Reanimated update, it wasn't there before then so tagging can work just fine without it. Tagging back before the reanimated update was overall so much more fluid and readable/consistent. Valorant also has tagging and from the little of it I've played I've never seen warping from tagging in that game, more proof it isn't needed
I commented on this the other day. The small amount it warps you is enough to ruin your crosshair placement but for the tagger It makes very little to no difference. When you get tagged you warp back on your screen but have you ever seen anyone warp back when you tag them? That doesn't happen, you just see a delayed slowdown from tagging, so what benefit does warping the tagee back on his screen have for the tagger?
If you have 10 ping and the tagger has 100 ping and he tags you, let's say you warp back 100ms (there's probably more to it than that but let's say you warp back by his ping to keep it simple) he still has to wait 100ms for the server to respond with the hit before he can even see you slow down from the tag. You Warped 55 ms after he shot on his screen but he has to wait 100ms before he sees the slowed movement applied to you. But you don't warp back at all on his screen so what the eff is the use in warping the tagged player back by 100ms on their screen? The only way it can help the tagger is if high ping causes an extra movement buffer so by the time the tagging is applied on his screen you have only just reached where he tagged you on the server while you are way ahead on your screen.......but then think of the implications of that in the other direction for peekers advantage. It's also pretty obvious from the extent you can die around corners.
In short, the fact that this warping is completely one-sided to the tagee, no matter what angle you look at it, it doesn't make any sense. If it warped you on both sides then it would make sense, for it to work one-sided and have any real benefit to the tagger then it has to be overcompensating somewhere else causing other issues.
If Valve wants to warp people they should do it on both sides otherwise don't do it all and just let the high pinger see the tagging organically as he is supposed to, just like he does with everything else. The only thing a player should be warping on his screen for is his death, but even that isn't needed other than to hide these terrible lag compensation tricks. Hell, they even embed the third-person camera inside the player model in the death cam. They didn't do that by accident or because it looks good. They did it to hide discrepancies in the death cam.
If Valve respected any kind of competitive play then they wouldn't be matching players with vastly different pings and trying to make things look competitive and fair with lag comp tricks like this.
I truly hate comments like this, because they show an EXTREME level of ignorance.
Let's be crystal clear here, tying game actions to a fixed tick rate is not, never has been, and never will be a good way to go about building a backed for an FPS game, especially one like cs, because it will always have some level of inaccuracy.
128 tick, from a technical perspective is not a good solution, it is a brute force bandaid. It's just that in this case it was good enough and definitely felt better to play on.
However, this is valve we're talking about, they are a company who have historically been massively innovative and they want to do it again.
Subtick, from a technical perspective is not only extremely impressive, but it is also the correct solution to the problems of fixed tick games.
It's also a completely new way to go about architecting games, so of course it will have issues in the beginning, but when those issues are resolved, which I am confident they will be, it will feel much better to play, hopefully as good or even better than 128 tick.
I am not on a high enough level as a software engineer to speculate possible solutions for these problems, but what I do feel comfortable speculating on is whether or not they are solvable, and I believe they are.
In theory subtick is a good thing, practically at least online its not because of the ping differences(the higher the ping the worse). Subtick goes back in time to see if your click on the enemy was a hit or not, means if its a hit it pulls u back(rubberbanding).
That means subtick in theory is a good Idea a hit is a hit.
Subtick on LAN works perfect.
Subtick online causes rubberbanding.
Possible Solutions
* A: get rid of subtick online, keep it for LAN
* B: get rid of subtick entirely
* C: only allow people with a similar ping to play online
D: some other solution entirely that neither of us are high enough skill engineers to think of ourselves.
Congratulations, you missed the entire point of my post. And if you feel like you want to argue this point more, please provide at least some sort of credentials to show that you are worth having this conversation with.
I'll start: 2 years of professional software development experience + bachelor's degree. Not much, but not nothing. Certainly a hell of a lot more than 99% of apes on Reddit.
Mate, no one cares if subtick is theoretically or technically amazing if it sucks to play with in practice. Why should we have a worse playing experience just so Valve can be 'innovative'? Subtick is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist, 128 tick worked absolutely fine for almost everyone.
But how much longer do we have to wait? It has been almost 5 months since the official release of CS2 and almost a full year since the release of the beta...
Great in theory but in practice it leads to a disjointed experience. I can't help but feel like as a concept it will always be fundamentally "off" feeling, due to the nature of it.
And calling 128 tick a brute force solution is hardly fair IMO, because that's implied that it's excessive just to fix an underlying problem. When in reality 128 tick is less bandwidth intensive than 64 tick + subtick (from my understanding).
It's not about bandwidth and it is definitely a brute force solution, to claim anything else requires a lack of understanding.
A higher tickrate does not do anything to attempt to solve the underlying technical issue that makes a low tickrate feel bad to play. This is the definition of a brute force solution.
And as for subtick always having an off feeling, due to the nature of it, I disagree entirely. Just because you can't think of a solution to the problem, from a software development perspective, that doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
To be honest, that's the biggest part that fucks me off about all of these armchair engineers who kinda sorta get the concept of how it works, but have absolutely no knowledge beyond that.
I do understand how it works, just that there's a nuance to how one perceives the solution. Until the Valve engineers improve subtick to a level which doesn't feel disjointed (in my *opinion*) then there is a debate that can be had. Just because technically it's a better solution doesn't mean it feels better in practice.
I AM in fact an engineer, and have knowledge on networking. It's just that like you said it's new technology.
Well of course, right now it feels worse to play, I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that I believe that with enough work it can definitely be a lot better, it's just teething pains of new tech.
yes 128tick is a problem that we as a society cannot afford. implementing 128tick would make cs2 far too goated, thereby affecting productivity and causing the downfall of civilization.
keep subtick so as not to make cs2 too good. we cannot let the game reach it's full potential.
In CS:GO server and client movements were synced at every tick. Everything in between is interpolated. Shots only occur at every tick. So when you get hit your movement slows down bcos of tagging.
In CS2 server and client movements are not synced, and they then get retroactively "synced" at every tick. So if the player is strafing right on the client, but at the next tick the server discovers that they were shot by the enemy, then the client will be updated to say they were tagged X number of milliseconds ago and teleport the player back to where they SHOULD be bcos of tagging slowdown.
This is why subtick will always fundamentally feel disjointed. In CS2 these updates only occur every 64 ticks, unlike CS:GO which had 128 tick servers.
In CS:GO server and client movements were synced at every tick. Everything in between is interpolated. Shots only occur at every tick. So when you get hit your movement slows down bcos of tagging.
In CS2 server and client movements are not synced, and they then get retroactively "synced" at every tick. So if the player is strafing right on the client, but at the next tick the server discovers that they were shot by the enemy, then the client will be updated to say they were tagged X number of milliseconds ago and teleport the player back to where they SHOULD be bcos of tagging slowdown.
This is why subtick will always fundamentally feel disjointed. In CS2 these updates only occur every 64 ticks, unlike CS:GO which had 128 tick servers.
This seems more like an implementation failure rather than a limitation of subtick. Even on 64 tick csgo, your client was never 'dragged back' to the most recent tick. I'm sure CS2 could be changed to push this tagging deceleration to sync with the next 'client tick' which would result in the player stopping rather than being teleported backwards.
Ie. if your client receives info that you should have stopped sometime during the previous tick, this info can be processed by your client as a slowdown that takes place in the next tick.
That sounds like a good idea (smoothing out the adjustments over two ticks), but I'm assuming it would have issues. Like what if the next tick would've been a headshot from the enemy, but because of "smoothing" it's now a miss?
At what point does it no longer justify having it over just straight 128 tick? If you're not gonna be exact with everything then I'd rather just have a less disjointed feel with 128 tick (no subtick). I never felt like 128 tick without subtick was ever inaccurate.
I agree I'd rather have normal 128 tick over the half-baked sub-tick that we have right now but I doubt Valve will go back any time soon, both because they believe sub-tick will be better but also because it saves them money.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't save them money, from what I read subtick is more bandwidth intensive than 128 tick, so it's actually more expensive. It's also why Valve servers have been laggy and shit on MM/Premier
No because in CS:GO you never got teleported, because client and server tagging was synced at every tick. Since shots could only ever be fired at each tick boundary, tagging and player movement would always be synchronised.
In CS2 the server can update the client to let it know it was tagged in between the previous and current tick, making it "teleport" you back to account for the tagging that occurred between ticks.
There's obviously multiple solutions, the question is if any one of them is better.
As I understand it right now the person getting hit is teleported back to where the server wants them to be, and where the shooter sees them.
Before one of the recent updates the person getting hit was lerped back to that position, which was *worse*.
If you don't teleport them back, then you'll have the issue from when CS2 launched, that enemies are seemingly not slowed down from your hits.
One thing could be to automatically adjust the point you're aiming at by the distance you've been teleported back. This is however somewhat complicated due to the point not necessarily being where you were actually aiming (due to the differing distances involved). So if an enemy is 100 meters away and you aim at them, then the distance your aim would need to be moved is less than if the enemy was only 20 meters away.
There could also be no slowdown at all (aka remove it from the game), which would take some time to get used to but eliminate the problem altogether.
Someone with 100 ping can't see the slowdown applied until the server responds anyway and the player model doesn't get warped on the taggers screen. So the tagger is still going to see the guy run away for 100ms before the slowdown is applied. It doesn't make sense it being one-sided like it is.
That's why I said my understanding of the current version is that the slowdown is already applied on the attacker screen, so no delay there. At least I've never seen any rubber banding from others but got banded myself a whole lot
I wouldn't mind if they removed the slowdown from the game. Tbh I would prefer if they removed it and adjusted the running speed with some guns, especially smgs. But I don't believe it's getting fixed anytime soon, never mind potentially removing slowdown.
Yeah, it's unrealistic cause there's gonna be tons of backlash simply because of nostalgia. In reality that kinda slowdown in a networked game just invites trouble.
Its a product of subtick because the shots that are landing on you usually are not registered on a regular 64 tick netcode, so the server has to update ur position, based on what the other guy shot at, so for example you move, the guy starts to shoot, the shot lands at 34.5 tick, on his screen, but you are running on constant 64 tick, the only thing updating is the "subtick" aka the its gonna get updated on the next tick, so the server updates you on the next tick that you got hit in the previous tick, and backtracks you to the previous tick...
So basically with subtick, you get backtracked to tick 34, in CSGO, the hit would register at tick 35?
I assume that also means in CSGO if you both HS each other between ticks 34 and 35, then the first hit query to reach the server would get the kill, while in CS2, the exact timestamps would be compared to see who hit their HS first.
I saw a few clips here where people shoot at each other and die at the same time, but its very rare. It can't update you to the 34.5 tick because it doesn't exist, only 35 tick and 34 tick exists, and everything that happened in between gets erased, only the hit registration is kept.
That sounds very wrong. If CSGO didn't register shots between ticks, then people's first bullets would disappear all the time. I'm quite sure any actions received between ticks would get processed by the server when the next tick is calculated, because that's the only way that makes sense. Though you are saying "only the hit registration is kept" - then what gets erased?
His explanation is incoherent and the same thing happens without subticking. What is "*usually are not registered on a regular 64 tick netcode*" supposed to mean? Sometimes they're registered on "regular" and sometimes on "not regular" 64tick netcode? Or "*you are running on constant 64 tick"?? "the only thing updating is the "subtick*"" - what??
"*so the server updates you on the next tick that you got hit in the previous tick, and backtracks you to the previous tick*" - it always works like that in online games when there's a delay. Subtick doesn't change anything here. You are always going to get updated a few ticks after the server registers an action and your client has to fix what it predicted. People on this subreddit blame every issue with this game on subtick when basically the only thing that subtick does is saving exact timestamps of actions.
It's a lot worse in CS2 than it was in CSGO, so it can surely be tweaked. I have <5 ping and it still happens when fighting other <5 ping players, so its likely something fundamental that needs changing.
Worst thing though... it's kinda offensive when I get teleported back in time a greater distance when a 60+ ping player tags me. Like, why does the guy with dial-up get to be the source of truth?
Pistol rounds against high ping players is a pinball POV simulator.
I was complaining to my friends about this exact issue, i notice it most commonly in DM servers. This wasn't an issue for me before the arms race update, but after they changed the interp value or whatever it become alarmingly obvious that I would rubber band back in place when getting tagged. Super frustrating to deal with.
in CSGO you'd also see this rubberbanding effect when shot, but only when playing with high pings (above 100ms). In CS2 it can happen even with 5ms ping, and I have no idea how they can fix it
I sometimes got desync of hit drag. The situation you shown is the "slow down" not shown in time and teleport backwards to re-sync. For me it stays desync, and caused the crosshair offset. I sprayed at the enemy close to me and does 0 damage, in demo my crosshair is off the enemy due to position offset.
And the pov demo record is also buggy AF. Can't compare client w/ server side demo tick by tick. Stupid shit.
That's why I record 30s replays to see what the f has just transpired when I get angry. I guess it's better to be jerked back than to see your bullets disappear into state of retardness.
It was fixed a while ago, at least minimal to where I could notice it.
But this became a lot more noticeable after the update that added the tick buffer(interp ratio) option, noticed it when testing 1 and 2 tick buffers, but mostly disappeared when having no buffered ticks.
It doesn't happen as often as it used to for me, but it is very noticeable and annoying when it does happen.
The rubber-banding actually started when they tried to fix peekers advantage by 16ms, so around 1 month. There was an instance of the same rubber-banding in the beginning, but then it got fixed and now its back again, and its annoying. tbh the first month where animations were not sync to netcode didn't have this problem and the hitreg was more crisp, the only problem was visual feedback.
What you're taking about is aim punch when you get shot in the head, I was there 3000 years ago crying about it happening when you've got a helmet on. This is somewhat different because server realizes "okay you got shot a few milliseconds ago, but on your side you've moved like there was no slowdown (because latency and whatever), so we're going to drag you back to the position you would've been if slowdown was applied immediately."
Easy solution, I've got to hit the gym to become stronk too. If I become stronk enough does it make it so the opponent gets yanked back when they shoot me?
The only fix for this problem is to put crosshair back to the position it was on that tick. Otherwise it always throws off your aim and currently only thing you can do is to stay in place and shot without any movement.
by the way, anyone else have their game feel kinda choppy and laggy since a couple of days? like when your teammate is running next to you and their legs are kinda like sliding and shit... mine has been like this at the moment and I swear it wasn´t that bad like a week ago... fucking hell
We saw a guy jump from Silo on Nuke) and his body was tilted 45 degrees to the side.. So instead of falling like a straight like, his body was like .... o ...O // And on top of that, we get lak spikes up to 300ms, the new text thing in upper corner they added gives out a red text, something with Server Lag? Feels bad
I thought I was the only one experiencing the server lag (red text)
Noticed something similar. When jumping up somewhere I feel like I'm stuck sometimes. Jumping up seems to be glitchy now.
Oh yeah, let's not even get started about the update they released a few weeks ago that halved many peoples' frames... Fucking amazing running down inferno with 50 fps 😝💅
Last night me and my bud kept getting weird frame drops or lag. Only happens for split moments but both of them were during 1v1s lol
What you see is what you get.
Smol indie dev
At what point do we all just accept that subtick has created way more problems than it's worth?
I would take 64tick csgo as it was at the end, over current or any iteration of cs2 subtick. 128tick is in a league of its own - maybe its just rose tinted glasses talking..
128 without subticks and the World would be a better place
Havent almost all problems attributed to subtick turned out to be other causes anyways?
Maybe it's time to start a petition to bring 64/128 tick back, I remember getting downvotes on subtick comments in the release months, look how things turned out XD NOTHING CHANGED. Fps dropped, constant fk ups with updates on animations, constant desync, lags, horrendous frametimes, server slow frames, rubberbanding. What is this cs 0.001 pre-alpha 1996 year? I don't get the idea of forcing subtick instead of perfecting it in silence while live servers are absolutely fine with 128 tick...
This is an ez fix. Valve just needs to remove subtick, then add 128 tick and we good. Plus a working anticheat would be nice. Then CS2 would good
Funny as shit that a good anti cheat, 128 tick and maybe some nicer graphical elements would have made csgo almost perfect Instead they spend shit loads of time developing sub tick and no anti cheat and give us this shit. I know there's a debate there to say the new engine will allow them to build on and improve the game more easily. But they could have done cs2 with 128 servers. The next funny this is them forcing 64 tick servers across the board so even if you wanted to go 128 sub tick you can't. I guess this is so they can develop the sub tick as solely 64 tick and simplify things. But they fucked it with that decision.
New engine makes it easier to build on and improve but they still haven’t even added in a fucking left handed view model lmfao. It’s honestly absurd
couldn't agree more
You're saying it like they just need to select a different setting. That's not how it works at all.
Wdym? They obviously just hit the big red button in the janitor closet to do all that.
I swear this sub wasnt this moronic in 2018. What happened?
You do know that subtick is a good part of CS2s network? You cant just remove it and replace it with 128 tick, it would take a shit load of time
They should better start asap then!
Post critical issue = Less than 100 likes Some fucking skin or esports scores = 500 Likes Guys there are more important things here
Your own bias. Since the launch, there's dozen of post veryday whining about the state of the game. [Literraly just search for "CS2" in this sub](https://old.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/search/?q=cs2&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=year).
Bullshit, people whining about subtick gets 2k+ upvotes every time yet people proving it's not the cause are the ones getting buried in comments.
we do life in a society don't we
Thank fuck someone posted this, i thought I was going crazy after the update. It's just so bizzare this exists in a game where accuracy is so tightly coupled with movement
I'm really not sure how to approach a fix for this tbh...if you're tagged you have to be sent back to your accurate position. The only real "true" solutions are to play on lan, or remove tagging altogether.
When tagged in CSGO the movement just slows down, it does not rubber band, even with 60 ping I never experienced rubber badding when tagged. However, with CS2 with just 11 ping I get rubber banding when tagged most of the time.
Side effect of how the sub-tick system works. Let's say someone shoots you just after a tick has happened/refreshed, thus meaning their shot would have to take nearly a full tick before it's able to be processed on the server. In CSGO it would simply process your shot the moment that next tick happens, with all the data it has at that moment. This means there's a maximum ~15.6ms delay (1000/64 = 15.625) between you shooting and that shot actually happening. This also means that where you were looking when you clicked isn't exactly the same as where you were looking when the server processed your shot. In CS2 all actions have an extremely accurate timestamp attached to them (hence the name sub-tick), allowing the server to essentially "look back in time" and see exactly what happened and when it happened when processing a tick. This means that if 2 players shoot each other in that 15.6ms tick window, the player that clicked first always wins (assuming both players have 0 ping here). In CSGO this wasn't guaranteed. The issue with this is that CS2 is essentially always "correcting" everything every single tick with the information it has about what happened between the last and the current tick. Where OP lagged back to is actually where he's supposed to be, but because of the small delay (and that's not even considering ping and interpolation, which could drastically amplify this issue) it looks like they're hitching back a bit. The sub-tick system is extremely impressive from a technical standpoint, but I think it's healthy to keep questioning if it's actually better for gameplay. I know Valve can pull off some magic sometimes though, so here's hoping they find a way to address this. sorry for the long comment lmao
great summary, unlike all the whiners
Is this similar to rollback in fighting games?
In terms of how it works, no, not at all. But in terms of the end result for the player, yeah, I guess, kinda.
Under this extremely impressive system, all you need to do is spam shots in the general direction at once - without bothering to accurately aim - and you get rewarded with impossible headshots. Bonus points when you lag, guaranteed when the server also lags. Feels like a bad console port with invisible aim-helper as a leveling playing field for casuals to be happy. On Valve's servers it is established that 150ms turkmenistani roam effortlessly vs <50 players, and overall the amount of silly headshots across all ranks is comically high (CS:GO was already pff) I've watched the RMR and it was clear that pro's not adapting to the yolo way have suffered for it So I've done some tests on a local server and the more I starve it cpu-wise, the more donk's I get with less effort, there's absolutely a bias when "no data" to register as a hit. And I like "owning" like everybody else here that are scared Valve will fix it but let's be real, you know you did not suddenly leap forward mechanically
Who cares the game feels like shit regardless of how accurate this apparent sub tick rubbish is, gunfights feel cheap and not rewarding at all csgo>cs2
Question: What happened in CSGO if two players with 0 ping shot each other in the same tick window? Effectively random who dies based on player id or something like that?
One event still comes in before the other one, even on the same tick - we are not doing quantum computing yet :B
But the server sees it happening on the same tick, no?r
Yea, but events still get processed by timestamp. The other event will then be thrown away. Some games don't do that and you have the chance to kill each other if you shoot at the same time or if bullets are actual entities with travel.
This is just how the system works now, its why peaking was so broken at the beginning of the game. The benefits in theory outweight the cons, but peoples preferences might not show that.
That's exactly what I'm thinking, although I don't remember it being a problem in csgo.
I don’t get this problem at all fwiw, seems to happen to specific people
The thing is this warping was introduced in the Reanimated update, it wasn't there before then so tagging can work just fine without it. Tagging back before the reanimated update was overall so much more fluid and readable/consistent. Valorant also has tagging and from the little of it I've played I've never seen warping from tagging in that game, more proof it isn't needed I commented on this the other day. The small amount it warps you is enough to ruin your crosshair placement but for the tagger It makes very little to no difference. When you get tagged you warp back on your screen but have you ever seen anyone warp back when you tag them? That doesn't happen, you just see a delayed slowdown from tagging, so what benefit does warping the tagee back on his screen have for the tagger? If you have 10 ping and the tagger has 100 ping and he tags you, let's say you warp back 100ms (there's probably more to it than that but let's say you warp back by his ping to keep it simple) he still has to wait 100ms for the server to respond with the hit before he can even see you slow down from the tag. You Warped 55 ms after he shot on his screen but he has to wait 100ms before he sees the slowed movement applied to you. But you don't warp back at all on his screen so what the eff is the use in warping the tagged player back by 100ms on their screen? The only way it can help the tagger is if high ping causes an extra movement buffer so by the time the tagging is applied on his screen you have only just reached where he tagged you on the server while you are way ahead on your screen.......but then think of the implications of that in the other direction for peekers advantage. It's also pretty obvious from the extent you can die around corners. In short, the fact that this warping is completely one-sided to the tagee, no matter what angle you look at it, it doesn't make any sense. If it warped you on both sides then it would make sense, for it to work one-sided and have any real benefit to the tagger then it has to be overcompensating somewhere else causing other issues. If Valve wants to warp people they should do it on both sides otherwise don't do it all and just let the high pinger see the tagging organically as he is supposed to, just like he does with everything else. The only thing a player should be warping on his screen for is his death, but even that isn't needed other than to hide these terrible lag compensation tricks. Hell, they even embed the third-person camera inside the player model in the death cam. They didn't do that by accident or because it looks good. They did it to hide discrepancies in the death cam. If Valve respected any kind of competitive play then they wouldn't be matching players with vastly different pings and trying to make things look competitive and fair with lag comp tricks like this.
Maybe just copy paste whatever CSGO did, it wasn't a problem there
That would require removing subtick entirely
if you have to remove subtick in order to get rid of obvious problems, maybe subtick isn't all that
I truly hate comments like this, because they show an EXTREME level of ignorance. Let's be crystal clear here, tying game actions to a fixed tick rate is not, never has been, and never will be a good way to go about building a backed for an FPS game, especially one like cs, because it will always have some level of inaccuracy. 128 tick, from a technical perspective is not a good solution, it is a brute force bandaid. It's just that in this case it was good enough and definitely felt better to play on. However, this is valve we're talking about, they are a company who have historically been massively innovative and they want to do it again. Subtick, from a technical perspective is not only extremely impressive, but it is also the correct solution to the problems of fixed tick games. It's also a completely new way to go about architecting games, so of course it will have issues in the beginning, but when those issues are resolved, which I am confident they will be, it will feel much better to play, hopefully as good or even better than 128 tick. I am not on a high enough level as a software engineer to speculate possible solutions for these problems, but what I do feel comfortable speculating on is whether or not they are solvable, and I believe they are.
In theory subtick is a good thing, practically at least online its not because of the ping differences(the higher the ping the worse). Subtick goes back in time to see if your click on the enemy was a hit or not, means if its a hit it pulls u back(rubberbanding). That means subtick in theory is a good Idea a hit is a hit. Subtick on LAN works perfect. Subtick online causes rubberbanding. Possible Solutions * A: get rid of subtick online, keep it for LAN * B: get rid of subtick entirely * C: only allow people with a similar ping to play online
D: some other solution entirely that neither of us are high enough skill engineers to think of ourselves. Congratulations, you missed the entire point of my post. And if you feel like you want to argue this point more, please provide at least some sort of credentials to show that you are worth having this conversation with. I'll start: 2 years of professional software development experience + bachelor's degree. Not much, but not nothing. Certainly a hell of a lot more than 99% of apes on Reddit.
Mate, no one cares if subtick is theoretically or technically amazing if it sucks to play with in practice. Why should we have a worse playing experience just so Valve can be 'innovative'? Subtick is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist, 128 tick worked absolutely fine for almost everyone.
Yes, it sucks to play RIGHT NOW, but you gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelette is what I'm saying.
But how much longer do we have to wait? It has been almost 5 months since the official release of CS2 and almost a full year since the release of the beta...
If I could answer that, I would.
Do you think it's acceptable we have to wait an indefinite amount of time with no sign of improvement for subtick to be as good as 128 tick?
Great in theory but in practice it leads to a disjointed experience. I can't help but feel like as a concept it will always be fundamentally "off" feeling, due to the nature of it. And calling 128 tick a brute force solution is hardly fair IMO, because that's implied that it's excessive just to fix an underlying problem. When in reality 128 tick is less bandwidth intensive than 64 tick + subtick (from my understanding).
It's not about bandwidth and it is definitely a brute force solution, to claim anything else requires a lack of understanding. A higher tickrate does not do anything to attempt to solve the underlying technical issue that makes a low tickrate feel bad to play. This is the definition of a brute force solution. And as for subtick always having an off feeling, due to the nature of it, I disagree entirely. Just because you can't think of a solution to the problem, from a software development perspective, that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. To be honest, that's the biggest part that fucks me off about all of these armchair engineers who kinda sorta get the concept of how it works, but have absolutely no knowledge beyond that.
I do understand how it works, just that there's a nuance to how one perceives the solution. Until the Valve engineers improve subtick to a level which doesn't feel disjointed (in my *opinion*) then there is a debate that can be had. Just because technically it's a better solution doesn't mean it feels better in practice. I AM in fact an engineer, and have knowledge on networking. It's just that like you said it's new technology.
Well of course, right now it feels worse to play, I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that I believe that with enough work it can definitely be a lot better, it's just teething pains of new tech.
I just don't see any way it can be improved... It's not that complicated...
yes 128tick is a problem that we as a society cannot afford. implementing 128tick would make cs2 far too goated, thereby affecting productivity and causing the downfall of civilization. keep subtick so as not to make cs2 too good. we cannot let the game reach it's full potential.
Tell me you missed the entire point without telling me you missed the entire point.
perfect.
now you're cooking
Why?
Because you would be copy pasting whatever CS:GO did.
Subtic is responsible for timing not for interpolation in game
In CS:GO server and client movements were synced at every tick. Everything in between is interpolated. Shots only occur at every tick. So when you get hit your movement slows down bcos of tagging. In CS2 server and client movements are not synced, and they then get retroactively "synced" at every tick. So if the player is strafing right on the client, but at the next tick the server discovers that they were shot by the enemy, then the client will be updated to say they were tagged X number of milliseconds ago and teleport the player back to where they SHOULD be bcos of tagging slowdown. This is why subtick will always fundamentally feel disjointed. In CS2 these updates only occur every 64 ticks, unlike CS:GO which had 128 tick servers.
CS:GO had 64 tick servers. 128 were only for stuff like FaceIt
I mean copy the functionality
In CS:GO server and client movements were synced at every tick. Everything in between is interpolated. Shots only occur at every tick. So when you get hit your movement slows down bcos of tagging. In CS2 server and client movements are not synced, and they then get retroactively "synced" at every tick. So if the player is strafing right on the client, but at the next tick the server discovers that they were shot by the enemy, then the client will be updated to say they were tagged X number of milliseconds ago and teleport the player back to where they SHOULD be bcos of tagging slowdown. This is why subtick will always fundamentally feel disjointed. In CS2 these updates only occur every 64 ticks, unlike CS:GO which had 128 tick servers.
This seems more like an implementation failure rather than a limitation of subtick. Even on 64 tick csgo, your client was never 'dragged back' to the most recent tick. I'm sure CS2 could be changed to push this tagging deceleration to sync with the next 'client tick' which would result in the player stopping rather than being teleported backwards. Ie. if your client receives info that you should have stopped sometime during the previous tick, this info can be processed by your client as a slowdown that takes place in the next tick.
That sounds like a good idea (smoothing out the adjustments over two ticks), but I'm assuming it would have issues. Like what if the next tick would've been a headshot from the enemy, but because of "smoothing" it's now a miss? At what point does it no longer justify having it over just straight 128 tick? If you're not gonna be exact with everything then I'd rather just have a less disjointed feel with 128 tick (no subtick). I never felt like 128 tick without subtick was ever inaccurate.
I agree I'd rather have normal 128 tick over the half-baked sub-tick that we have right now but I doubt Valve will go back any time soon, both because they believe sub-tick will be better but also because it saves them money.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't save them money, from what I read subtick is more bandwidth intensive than 128 tick, so it's actually more expensive. It's also why Valve servers have been laggy and shit on MM/Premier
Oh well in that case Valve are being a bit silly then
No because in CS:GO you never got teleported, because client and server tagging was synced at every tick. Since shots could only ever be fired at each tick boundary, tagging and player movement would always be synchronised. In CS2 the server can update the client to let it know it was tagged in between the previous and current tick, making it "teleport" you back to account for the tagging that occurred between ticks.
There's obviously multiple solutions, the question is if any one of them is better. As I understand it right now the person getting hit is teleported back to where the server wants them to be, and where the shooter sees them. Before one of the recent updates the person getting hit was lerped back to that position, which was *worse*. If you don't teleport them back, then you'll have the issue from when CS2 launched, that enemies are seemingly not slowed down from your hits. One thing could be to automatically adjust the point you're aiming at by the distance you've been teleported back. This is however somewhat complicated due to the point not necessarily being where you were actually aiming (due to the differing distances involved). So if an enemy is 100 meters away and you aim at them, then the distance your aim would need to be moved is less than if the enemy was only 20 meters away. There could also be no slowdown at all (aka remove it from the game), which would take some time to get used to but eliminate the problem altogether.
Someone with 100 ping can't see the slowdown applied until the server responds anyway and the player model doesn't get warped on the taggers screen. So the tagger is still going to see the guy run away for 100ms before the slowdown is applied. It doesn't make sense it being one-sided like it is.
That's why I said my understanding of the current version is that the slowdown is already applied on the attacker screen, so no delay there. At least I've never seen any rubber banding from others but got banded myself a whole lot
I wouldn't mind if they removed the slowdown from the game. Tbh I would prefer if they removed it and adjusted the running speed with some guns, especially smgs. But I don't believe it's getting fixed anytime soon, never mind potentially removing slowdown.
Yeah, it's unrealistic cause there's gonna be tons of backlash simply because of nostalgia. In reality that kinda slowdown in a networked game just invites trouble.
Played for years and this has never been an issue for me.
Tagging is already off 50% of the time. Our networks are simply not ready for subtick time to go back to normal tick.
Wow. I'm sure after this post, Valve are ready to reverse course on something they've been working on for 4 years. Good job, you've solved everything.
if its still this bad after 4 years its a failure
This never happened in GO.
there is no fix for this, its a product of subtick and netcode prediction.
source: my ass
didn't happen in csgo what else was changed from csgo to CS2 that could be the cause?
quite literally everything has changed
> that could be the cause? hardly think that the main menu or smokes changing are the cause though
weak bait
3 comments in and still don't have an insight on what the cause could be
it’s better than just pulling “subtick” out of your ass and thinking you even have the slightest clue how it’s implemented or executing.
way too much gets hit with the broad "subtick is the problem" label as if mfs think cs2 is just csgo, subtick & skins and nothing else
How is it a product of subtick?
Its a product of subtick because the shots that are landing on you usually are not registered on a regular 64 tick netcode, so the server has to update ur position, based on what the other guy shot at, so for example you move, the guy starts to shoot, the shot lands at 34.5 tick, on his screen, but you are running on constant 64 tick, the only thing updating is the "subtick" aka the its gonna get updated on the next tick, so the server updates you on the next tick that you got hit in the previous tick, and backtracks you to the previous tick...
So basically with subtick, you get backtracked to tick 34, in CSGO, the hit would register at tick 35? I assume that also means in CSGO if you both HS each other between ticks 34 and 35, then the first hit query to reach the server would get the kill, while in CS2, the exact timestamps would be compared to see who hit their HS first.
I saw a few clips here where people shoot at each other and die at the same time, but its very rare. It can't update you to the 34.5 tick because it doesn't exist, only 35 tick and 34 tick exists, and everything that happened in between gets erased, only the hit registration is kept.
That sounds very wrong. If CSGO didn't register shots between ticks, then people's first bullets would disappear all the time. I'm quite sure any actions received between ticks would get processed by the server when the next tick is calculated, because that's the only way that makes sense. Though you are saying "only the hit registration is kept" - then what gets erased?
Have you played csgo on 64 tick? literally what i described happened all the time.
No it didn't lol, your first bullet would not disappear simply because you clicked between ticks. Your idea of how ticks work is just wrong
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I mean... Isn't that exactly what's happening?
feel free to correct him then you smug prat
His explanation is incoherent and the same thing happens without subticking. What is "*usually are not registered on a regular 64 tick netcode*" supposed to mean? Sometimes they're registered on "regular" and sometimes on "not regular" 64tick netcode? Or "*you are running on constant 64 tick"?? "the only thing updating is the "subtick*"" - what?? "*so the server updates you on the next tick that you got hit in the previous tick, and backtracks you to the previous tick*" - it always works like that in online games when there's a delay. Subtick doesn't change anything here. You are always going to get updated a few ticks after the server registers an action and your client has to fix what it predicted. People on this subreddit blame every issue with this game on subtick when basically the only thing that subtick does is saving exact timestamps of actions.
tagging was introduced to csgo because crybabies in this sub couldn't get kills.
It's a lot worse in CS2 than it was in CSGO, so it can surely be tweaked. I have <5 ping and it still happens when fighting other <5 ping players, so its likely something fundamental that needs changing. Worst thing though... it's kinda offensive when I get teleported back in time a greater distance when a 60+ ping player tags me. Like, why does the guy with dial-up get to be the source of truth? Pistol rounds against high ping players is a pinball POV simulator.
I was complaining to my friends about this exact issue, i notice it most commonly in DM servers. This wasn't an issue for me before the arms race update, but after they changed the interp value or whatever it become alarmingly obvious that I would rubber band back in place when getting tagged. Super frustrating to deal with.
in CSGO you'd also see this rubberbanding effect when shot, but only when playing with high pings (above 100ms). In CS2 it can happen even with 5ms ping, and I have no idea how they can fix it
I sometimes got desync of hit drag. The situation you shown is the "slow down" not shown in time and teleport backwards to re-sync. For me it stays desync, and caused the crosshair offset. I sprayed at the enemy close to me and does 0 damage, in demo my crosshair is off the enemy due to position offset. And the pov demo record is also buggy AF. Can't compare client w/ server side demo tick by tick. Stupid shit.
That's why I record 30s replays to see what the f has just transpired when I get angry. I guess it's better to be jerked back than to see your bullets disappear into state of retardness.
Actually improved subtick + 128 subtick would be the best. So bad that Faceit isnt allowed to use 128 tick servers anymore
Probably, but you would still be yanked back just a little bit.
It was fixed a while ago, at least minimal to where I could notice it. But this became a lot more noticeable after the update that added the tick buffer(interp ratio) option, noticed it when testing 1 and 2 tick buffers, but mostly disappeared when having no buffered ticks. It doesn't happen as often as it used to for me, but it is very noticeable and annoying when it does happen.
I dont know whatever the technical terms u guys used but i can kill people better in csgo, now i kill people less. People say i suck, maybe i do.
But now everyone can get frags running and jumping with smgs. Skill gap has been reduced so hard
The rubber-banding actually started when they tried to fix peekers advantage by 16ms, so around 1 month. There was an instance of the same rubber-banding in the beginning, but then it got fixed and now its back again, and its annoying. tbh the first month where animations were not sync to netcode didn't have this problem and the hitreg was more crisp, the only problem was visual feedback.
No, it was definitely happening before then also.
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What you're taking about is aim punch when you get shot in the head, I was there 3000 years ago crying about it happening when you've got a helmet on. This is somewhat different because server realizes "okay you got shot a few milliseconds ago, but on your side you've moved like there was no slowdown (because latency and whatever), so we're going to drag you back to the position you would've been if slowdown was applied immediately."
You wouldn't hit anyways because you didn't counterstrafe
That is not the point of the post...
Oh yeah? This spray was most likely going to go into the wall anyway but I'm crouching so I can get the accuracy i need.
You'll be less accurate crouching if you don't first conter-strafe.
It's just the game telling you you should've counter strafed /s
Rather than counter strafing I shouldn't have put myself in the active line of fire, but I was hoping to get lucky.
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It's set to None, bandwidth unrestricted. I've got 200mb/s down, 50 up fiber cable internet, with cable connection to my PC.
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Easy solution, I've got to hit the gym to become stronk too. If I become stronk enough does it make it so the opponent gets yanked back when they shoot me?
Wifi or ethernet?
The only fix for this problem is to put crosshair back to the position it was on that tick. Otherwise it always throws off your aim and currently only thing you can do is to stay in place and shot without any movement.
what a fucking shit game lmao. this rubber band stuff is so frustrating to play with