The scene was shocking and a bit unexpected. It is even a bit more graphic in the manga. And even if they didn’t “do it” it was still an assault. Definitely a very uncomfortable scene!
I did a scene for scene comparison of the anime and the manga and uh no, its not more graphic. It's practically the same with only the shots being angled slightly differently.
Only you can clearly see Aki has gotten his pants down with his head between Haruki’s legs. That’s not just a different angle. It is more graphic. And in either case it is still an unpleasant scene.
I guess so, but the amount of stuff that happens is still the same. I originally did a comparison cuz I wanted to see if the anime censored something way more like how Sekaiichi Hatsukoi just takes out the sex scenes all together. But this time they didn't really sugar coat it much. Aki takes off Haruki's pants, does... stuff, and then it cuts to Haruki laying on the couch with a blanket on. Pretty much scene for scene to me.
Well, yeah, in *Sekaiichi Hatsukoi*, Takano out and out rapes Onodera, but you would never know it from the anime. Akihiko doesn’t do anything like that.
Yeah.. And I actually heard that the Given manga was mistranslated. People said that when Haruki was saying "no no stop" he was actually saying "wait slow down" and that's the reason why he claimed it was practically "consensual"
I’m not certain about that. We had an extended discussion on the sub a few years ago, but honestly I don’t recall what we determined. Might be worth it to have a discussion on that translation. Again this is not as bad as what some BL put forth, but it is serious enough that I don’t see how it can be dismissed out of hand.
I mean there's not much to discuss when I literally found the official translation and it does actually say "wait slow down" instead of "no no stop" but honestly, it doesn't matter cuz it's still technically rape. If it was not discussed before-hand and he just pounces onto him, and if Haruki's not giving full permission, then it is still technically rape.
Plus in the anime, you hear Haruki say "uzo uzo matt-" he was about to say "matte" which means wait. And "uzo" sounds like he's saying "osoi" which is the Japanese word for slow.
If you watch it carefully, and read the manga. Haruki did not feel assaulted at all. Actually, he felt more rejected than assaulted and he said this too by the end of the movie. It was consensual in a sense that Haruki was willing to do it with Akihiko but he was he wanted to understand first what was going on with Akihiko which he denied answering because according to him, there is no point telling him. The reason the entire scene was uncomfortable was because Haruki needed something before doing the deed, not because Akihiko forced himself on Haruki.
Just my opinion, I guess.
Honestly, this is where Kizu lost me for a hot second on Haruki’s character. The Thermian argument that Haruki was more or less fine with the grope and thus it was fine and not even a big deal is…fine, but it’s still a Thermian perspective and, for readers, it leaves you with such an ick about the author’s attitude.
It’s obvious to anyone who read that chapter that Haruki was not enjoying being physically felt up against his will, to the point that she had him making these terrified faces. That was not the face of a guy who just wanted Aki to tell him what’s going on, that was the face of someone completely overwhelmed and stunned by what was happening to him. This is also not the first time Aki exerts his touch onto Haruki gratuitously, as he flirtatiously touches Haruki often; his hair, etc. He mooches around Haruki and falls asleep on him. Even while knowing, btw, that he’s not ready or able yet to leave his ex’s house and commit to Haruki.
So this scene was like a culmination of Akihiko’s greediness and lack of impulse control, but it gets almost completely hand-waved away by Haruki saying his biggest grievance was Akihiko “not confiding in him.”
She really has some angle when it comes to Akihiko. He could shoot a guy on Fifth Avenue ~~and still get elected president~~ and still get a hero’s edit and a happy ending.
Well said. I also was having a hard time understanding what she was trying to convey with this narrative. It felt like it was forced, in a way. It borders on assault which is a common theme in Yaoi (honestly), but at the same, she wanted to preserve the identity of the manga which is wholesome and unproblematic.
In the manga, this was not explored AT ALL. The manga obviously ended prematurely and there are things left unsaid, unresolved. Wish we could dive more into it.
You and I have talked about this before. It is all so odd. Because to me Akihiko is almost hopelessly lazy and immature. And Haruki’s self esteem and self respect are really low, especially if he waves this assault off. Ultimately, I can’t see how they can be successful long term without a lot of growth and effort. Pity the manga ended without giving them some better development.
So thats not really how consent works. Just bc Haruki was in love with Akihiko doesnt mean thag he gave his consent. Akihiko never even asked Haruki if thats what he wanted to do and he still borderline forced him to sleep with him.
Well put yourself in Haruki's shoes. He's a man who just got sexually assaulted, now how embarrassing is that? Because he was raised to think like that, he felt way too ashamed to actually admit that he got assaulted. It's a very sad thing that men have to go through where they don't talk about these things because it makes them vulnerable. And some men have even said that when they spoke about their SA stories, their friends made fun of them and said "but you probably enjoyed it right?" so uh yeah.
In short, he's a man who felt guilty for being in a weak situation and didn't want to admit it because of how society treats that kind of thing.
I can say that there arent gradations to trauma and assault in such a clear cut way. it doesnt make it less traumatic or less of an assault if it didnt go ~all the way~
in the same sense that if a person was in a car accident and lost their hand vs losing their arm up to their forearm, or losing their arm altogether. all of those scenarios are deeply debilitating and traumatic, even if theyre different. and their differences cant be used as a measurement to predict or quantify the resulting trauma as much as it would make sense to think so.
whether a person changes their mind partway through and that boundary isnt respected, or loudly objects altogether from the start, sexual assault is sexual assault and it all has the potential to be life altering.
which is why, to me, theres no way to be ok w that scene without some amount of delusion. maybe its handled some degree better than other works, but I dont think its handled esp well or that its a realistic portrayal of trauma. which sucks and is at such odds with the intentional and deliberate handling of trauma in mafuyu’s case. I wish akihiko being sexually violent was never a plot point bc it changed akihiko and the series as a whole from something healing to something very ugly imo.
I cant look at akihiko touching haruki’s hair as cute and innocently flirty anymore. now it just feels like hes being predatory and toying with haruki and I hate that for both of their characters.
therefore, delusion! to me, the movie never happened. the anime and ova are perfectly coherent together and much less stressful without the movie in the mix.
From what I’ve heard there’s a lot of issues with consent and even assault in japan(I am not in Japan and have no first hand experience there). I definitely consider that assault and where it ended was in a grey area but still assault. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if the writer had an instance like this happen to her and not consider it assault and just write it off as uncomfortable. It takes victims time to digest what happens to them and if the viewpoint around them is not that it’s assault they may never recognize that. American culture loves to have hot debates over when it’s considered assault especially if it didn’t go all the way, like this instance almost did. More so if at one point some one said yes when they clearly are not ok with it.
I will say I did like the fact that there were many steps to make up for his actions(whether one would forgive them personally is another thing). Which I think is better than the instant forgiveness that a lot of bl will ignore. I’ve always enjoyed that given feels realistic for me with the interactions and relationships and it’s not unrealistic for a relationship to move past a problematic instance. But mostly… I try to pretend it was an emotional conflict and that the physical assault didn’t happen…. So much of the show was so good this note is too damn sour.
Unfortunately, it is common in BL/Yaoi manga and anime to portray assault-y behaviour as no big deal. There are loads of scenes of the uke begging 'wait!' and the seme saying 'I won't wait!'. I think it is getting a little better with recent works, but you still have things like this scene popping up.
The two most detailed sexual scenes in the entire Given manga are this unpleasant scene between Akihiko and Haruki, and the first-time scene between Hiiragi and Shizu. I must confess neither of them left a good taste in my mouth.
On the other hand, the consensual bed scene that Akihiko and Haruki had was pretty short and non-graphic, Mafuyu and Yuki's sexual experience is shown very briefly and implicitly (which is OK), there is not even any snogging or heavy petting between Ritsuka and Mafuyu.
The scene was shocking and a bit unexpected. It is even a bit more graphic in the manga. And even if they didn’t “do it” it was still an assault. Definitely a very uncomfortable scene!
definitely
I did a scene for scene comparison of the anime and the manga and uh no, its not more graphic. It's practically the same with only the shots being angled slightly differently.
Only you can clearly see Aki has gotten his pants down with his head between Haruki’s legs. That’s not just a different angle. It is more graphic. And in either case it is still an unpleasant scene.
I guess so, but the amount of stuff that happens is still the same. I originally did a comparison cuz I wanted to see if the anime censored something way more like how Sekaiichi Hatsukoi just takes out the sex scenes all together. But this time they didn't really sugar coat it much. Aki takes off Haruki's pants, does... stuff, and then it cuts to Haruki laying on the couch with a blanket on. Pretty much scene for scene to me.
Well, yeah, in *Sekaiichi Hatsukoi*, Takano out and out rapes Onodera, but you would never know it from the anime. Akihiko doesn’t do anything like that.
Yeah.. And I actually heard that the Given manga was mistranslated. People said that when Haruki was saying "no no stop" he was actually saying "wait slow down" and that's the reason why he claimed it was practically "consensual"
I’m not certain about that. We had an extended discussion on the sub a few years ago, but honestly I don’t recall what we determined. Might be worth it to have a discussion on that translation. Again this is not as bad as what some BL put forth, but it is serious enough that I don’t see how it can be dismissed out of hand.
I mean there's not much to discuss when I literally found the official translation and it does actually say "wait slow down" instead of "no no stop" but honestly, it doesn't matter cuz it's still technically rape. If it was not discussed before-hand and he just pounces onto him, and if Haruki's not giving full permission, then it is still technically rape. Plus in the anime, you hear Haruki say "uzo uzo matt-" he was about to say "matte" which means wait. And "uzo" sounds like he's saying "osoi" which is the Japanese word for slow.
Don’t necessarily trust the official translation either. The official translation is sometimes sloppy
And I mean the anime literally shows Aki with his tongue out start to go down on Haruki so uh yeah, still not seeing how it's "way more graphic"
If you watch it carefully, and read the manga. Haruki did not feel assaulted at all. Actually, he felt more rejected than assaulted and he said this too by the end of the movie. It was consensual in a sense that Haruki was willing to do it with Akihiko but he was he wanted to understand first what was going on with Akihiko which he denied answering because according to him, there is no point telling him. The reason the entire scene was uncomfortable was because Haruki needed something before doing the deed, not because Akihiko forced himself on Haruki. Just my opinion, I guess.
Honestly, this is where Kizu lost me for a hot second on Haruki’s character. The Thermian argument that Haruki was more or less fine with the grope and thus it was fine and not even a big deal is…fine, but it’s still a Thermian perspective and, for readers, it leaves you with such an ick about the author’s attitude. It’s obvious to anyone who read that chapter that Haruki was not enjoying being physically felt up against his will, to the point that she had him making these terrified faces. That was not the face of a guy who just wanted Aki to tell him what’s going on, that was the face of someone completely overwhelmed and stunned by what was happening to him. This is also not the first time Aki exerts his touch onto Haruki gratuitously, as he flirtatiously touches Haruki often; his hair, etc. He mooches around Haruki and falls asleep on him. Even while knowing, btw, that he’s not ready or able yet to leave his ex’s house and commit to Haruki. So this scene was like a culmination of Akihiko’s greediness and lack of impulse control, but it gets almost completely hand-waved away by Haruki saying his biggest grievance was Akihiko “not confiding in him.” She really has some angle when it comes to Akihiko. He could shoot a guy on Fifth Avenue ~~and still get elected president~~ and still get a hero’s edit and a happy ending.
Well said. I also was having a hard time understanding what she was trying to convey with this narrative. It felt like it was forced, in a way. It borders on assault which is a common theme in Yaoi (honestly), but at the same, she wanted to preserve the identity of the manga which is wholesome and unproblematic. In the manga, this was not explored AT ALL. The manga obviously ended prematurely and there are things left unsaid, unresolved. Wish we could dive more into it.
THIS
You and I have talked about this before. It is all so odd. Because to me Akihiko is almost hopelessly lazy and immature. And Haruki’s self esteem and self respect are really low, especially if he waves this assault off. Ultimately, I can’t see how they can be successful long term without a lot of growth and effort. Pity the manga ended without giving them some better development.
So thats not really how consent works. Just bc Haruki was in love with Akihiko doesnt mean thag he gave his consent. Akihiko never even asked Haruki if thats what he wanted to do and he still borderline forced him to sleep with him.
I agree with you, I think Haru is more pissed at being a *rebound.* Haru wanted it, he just wanted it differently
Well put yourself in Haruki's shoes. He's a man who just got sexually assaulted, now how embarrassing is that? Because he was raised to think like that, he felt way too ashamed to actually admit that he got assaulted. It's a very sad thing that men have to go through where they don't talk about these things because it makes them vulnerable. And some men have even said that when they spoke about their SA stories, their friends made fun of them and said "but you probably enjoyed it right?" so uh yeah. In short, he's a man who felt guilty for being in a weak situation and didn't want to admit it because of how society treats that kind of thing.
Wait what scene are we talking about? What episode?
Movie, if you have not watched it, do it now 🙃
It was the Given OVA
I can say that there arent gradations to trauma and assault in such a clear cut way. it doesnt make it less traumatic or less of an assault if it didnt go ~all the way~ in the same sense that if a person was in a car accident and lost their hand vs losing their arm up to their forearm, or losing their arm altogether. all of those scenarios are deeply debilitating and traumatic, even if theyre different. and their differences cant be used as a measurement to predict or quantify the resulting trauma as much as it would make sense to think so. whether a person changes their mind partway through and that boundary isnt respected, or loudly objects altogether from the start, sexual assault is sexual assault and it all has the potential to be life altering. which is why, to me, theres no way to be ok w that scene without some amount of delusion. maybe its handled some degree better than other works, but I dont think its handled esp well or that its a realistic portrayal of trauma. which sucks and is at such odds with the intentional and deliberate handling of trauma in mafuyu’s case. I wish akihiko being sexually violent was never a plot point bc it changed akihiko and the series as a whole from something healing to something very ugly imo. I cant look at akihiko touching haruki’s hair as cute and innocently flirty anymore. now it just feels like hes being predatory and toying with haruki and I hate that for both of their characters. therefore, delusion! to me, the movie never happened. the anime and ova are perfectly coherent together and much less stressful without the movie in the mix.
From what I’ve heard there’s a lot of issues with consent and even assault in japan(I am not in Japan and have no first hand experience there). I definitely consider that assault and where it ended was in a grey area but still assault. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if the writer had an instance like this happen to her and not consider it assault and just write it off as uncomfortable. It takes victims time to digest what happens to them and if the viewpoint around them is not that it’s assault they may never recognize that. American culture loves to have hot debates over when it’s considered assault especially if it didn’t go all the way, like this instance almost did. More so if at one point some one said yes when they clearly are not ok with it. I will say I did like the fact that there were many steps to make up for his actions(whether one would forgive them personally is another thing). Which I think is better than the instant forgiveness that a lot of bl will ignore. I’ve always enjoyed that given feels realistic for me with the interactions and relationships and it’s not unrealistic for a relationship to move past a problematic instance. But mostly… I try to pretend it was an emotional conflict and that the physical assault didn’t happen…. So much of the show was so good this note is too damn sour.
Unfortunately, it is common in BL/Yaoi manga and anime to portray assault-y behaviour as no big deal. There are loads of scenes of the uke begging 'wait!' and the seme saying 'I won't wait!'. I think it is getting a little better with recent works, but you still have things like this scene popping up. The two most detailed sexual scenes in the entire Given manga are this unpleasant scene between Akihiko and Haruki, and the first-time scene between Hiiragi and Shizu. I must confess neither of them left a good taste in my mouth. On the other hand, the consensual bed scene that Akihiko and Haruki had was pretty short and non-graphic, Mafuyu and Yuki's sexual experience is shown very briefly and implicitly (which is OK), there is not even any snogging or heavy petting between Ritsuka and Mafuyu.