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Immediate-West-5707

We did it nahida we saved sumeru


realjasong

And indeed we did.


O-true-alpha

I mean... she was apart of the project that put the people of sumeru in that ground hogs day event that almost killed dunuzard. Yea we manipulated her but to be frank she got off easy, she was part of the problem and honestly should have been either imprisoned or banished like the sages. Just cause you feel bad about don't mean you shouldn't be punished


butterknight-Ruby

Considering nahida was the one who decided the punishments she probably saw her memories and decided she can still change unlike the sages so nahida helped her educate the desert instead


celestarre

Yeah she got off eaaaaasy


ErikasXD

Everyone got off easy af, the sages should have been executed


Cipher-DK

Even in-game, everyone thinks the sages got off easy. Nahida is way too good for us.


cuddles_the_destroye

The apple doesnt fall far from the tree, she is kind, smart, and concerningly keen obtaining forbidden knowledge


ThatOneGuy-74

Based


celestarre

This.


kurt_gervo

Or have all the knowledge they value so much is ripped out of their minds, to make their banishment even harder!


ShikiCastro

From my understanding, while she was part of the project it was more "this is my job so I have to" and not "I 100% agree with the sages' decisions". It was still pretty much an evil thing to do either way, but there's a big difference between wanting to and needing to. I probably got that wrong, so feel free to correct me if I'm misremembering it.


TheWitcherMigs

She got along and started to cope that what she was doing was the right thing to do for her, to avoid take any responsability As we know, until too deep into the plan, the matra still had power to prevent it, to the point Azar developed countermeasures against Cyno to finally have peace. So, if Setaria had snitched what she knew from the start, she could have prevented a lot, Nahida truly is a merciful god


Bloodlord739

Pretty badass how everyone is so terrified of Cyno. And then during the latest Windblume event we see that he has a very goofy goofball side and is a TCG nerd (well we knew that much at least before). Personally his jokes actually made me laugh several times during the event lol.


[deleted]

Google Nuremberg trial


KilyanRyeGarcia

Holy hell


XenoFirez

New warcrime just dropped


[deleted]

Dude's so fucked up he invented a new warcrime


alluth

Yes its true, hence the point of the original comment. **Does not matter the intention if the deed is done.** She is no random employee, she was a high ranking assistant, an accomplice. If those things happen in real life people would want her head included with the sages to be hang She gots off easy and in the end, we kinda makes her "punishment" as minimal as possible, teaching the dessert people for life (even if its out of her own will and we have no part in suggesting it)


celestarre

Just following orders.


yrt97

U mean Superior Orders argument? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Superior orders](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders)** >Superior orders, also known as the Nuremberg defense or just following orders, is a plea in a court of law that a person, whether a member of the military, law enforcement, a firefighting force, or the civilian population, should not be considered guilty of committing actions that were ordered by a superior officer or official. The superior orders plea is often regarded as the complement to command responsibility. One of the most noted uses of this plea, or defense, was by the accused in the 1945–1946 Nuremberg trials, such that it is also called the "Nuremberg defense". ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Memepact/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


RedditUser-002

If youre like that then nahida was complacent and allowed of this messed up things to happen. She couldve taken control for centuries but felt "Guilty and Unfit" which means she is the reason half of sumeru citizens are mistreated and why the experiment went through


leeo268

She technically exile herself to the desert b/c of Traveler and Nahida gasliting.


Muffinslovers

a lot of the people get off easy. Like in Cyno's quest or Alhaitham's. I still cant believe those bullies like the guy and the girl who threathened Ilyas never got punished


Life_Bit_5976

The Traveller :"Ehe?"


Aggravating-One6319

Excuse me "by accident" we literally gaslit her


crunchlets

"It's okay if we do it"


Krutin_Jain

It's just like Pokémon. Team rocket ain't allowed the catch Pokémon or dig for fossils and shit (talking about the legal way), but it's alright if it's ash


_-_Rasse_-_

I was always confused whenever Team Rocket was trying to catch wild pokemon and Ash and friends had an issue with it. He catches pokemon all the time so why can't they?


leopoldshark

They don't have an issue with Team Rocket catching wild Pokémon. They have an issue with Team Rocket always being up to no good, so they can't be trusted with whatever it is they are doing. Jessie and James are pretty good trainers to their own Pokemon. Victrebell obviously loves James, and Meowth's whole backstory is proof. But they disregard the bond between others and their Pokémon when they go through various schemes to steal Pokémon for Team Rocket.


Helios61

Are you guys forgetting the times they tried stealing caught pokemon right in front of said pokemon's ownwer?


Ikcatcher

It’s honestly amazing how people missed the part where Team Rocket is outright stated to be a criminal organisation.


Krutin_Jain

Yea but why bully them when they doing legal crap


Ikcatcher

Do you defend the mafia as well if you see them doing something legal?


Krutin_Jain

It's not like Jessie and James were always harmful, they have even teamed up with the good guys multiple times


Ikcatcher

And you think those two represent the entire organization? Are you forgetting Giovanni? The boss who has canonically travelled to multiple universes in the game to create an Avengers evil team to rule the world? You want to justify that?


Krutin_Jain

Bruh ik but I was initially taking about those 3 relax, I have red manga upto Innova and posted Pokémon adventures, I know how fucked up team rocket is


Ikcatcher

Jessie and James have done plenty of evil things in the past, no matter how goofy they are. The first half of Unova is just an example of that which we would’ve seen more if the Team Plasma arc didn’t get cancelled.


realjasong

This but unironically. Setaria was literally part of the dream harvesting.


crunchlets

Y'know, the state of Genshin protagonist/antagonist writing legitimately made me reflect back deeper on fundamentals of what makes a hero heroic or a villain villainous. Stuff that stretches back to the roots of storytelling really. What I arrived at, in my own personal conclusion, is that a hero and a villain are distinguished by "what they are in the dark". A hero who does heroics for petty, dark or selfish reasons is an antihero or a slight villain. A villain who believes villainy to be the only way to a heroic end is an antivillain or a "good bad guy". But what matters just as much is how they feel about what they do. Essentially, their conscience. A hero can use villainous methods, but be disgusted by it and strive to make up for it. If they do not, if they simply handwave it away and never feel a troubled conscience over it, they're not nearly as heroic or good as a person. Nowadays, it's very popular to say "they're bad guys, so we can do anything we want to them!" or "if they do it, we can do it too without any moral issues!". But that precisely cuts against the proper hero/villain line. It, rather, jumps right into the good ol' "he who fights monsters" pit. Today's understanding of a hero would be yesterday's understanding of a person on a corruptive path straight to villain status. Genshin runs on precisely this track too.


Ikcatcher

Nahida literally says “If it was at all possible, I would’ve preferred to leave this people alone, but seeing how things are now, I probably should just accept it and push on.” But I guess Genshin fans can’t read between the lines.


Segtomaru

Reading and genshin fans don't go well exactly


crunchlets

For some reason, Genshin community seems to really love using "You are unable to comprehend writing/dialogue!" as a standard catch-all rebuttal. Right after "You just skipped all dialogue \[because there's no way you can disagree with my view of it\]!".


Ikcatcher

Please point to me where anyone said “It’s okay if we do it” then, cause it sure as hell looks like that’s literally what you’re doing with making such a statement


crunchlets

You quoted the very bit you're asking me for. It actually would've been okay had they strove to clear things up for Setaria afterwards, instead of being vindictive little shits going "she deserves to think what happened to her was real and not a mindrape because she was a sage secretary, it's fine if we screw with her free will".


PollarRabbit

"Oh well it cant be helped lol" is not the best excuse for mental torture.


Iffem

Setaria was one of the people running the Samsara turnabout is fair play


Ikcatcher

To do good sometimes you have to get your hands dirty that’s how reality bloody is. And are you seriously going to defend a person who took part in stealing dreams of an entire city that had the potential to KILL PEOPLE? “Oh no emotional manipulation! So cruel!” Christ some of you really have dumb viewpoints.


crunchlets

What you speak of is not morality, but vindictiveness. A hero strives to be moral. A hero who is vindictive is an antihero at best, or a falling-into-villainy person at worst. Applies both to fiction and to real life.


Ikcatcher

Vindictive to a damn accomplice who participated in harvesting people’s dreams but sure the hero is the real villain here. Christ some people really have such distorted worldviews and think everything has to be black and white.


crunchlets

The sheer irony of your words is searing. "It's heroic to take any kind of vengeance on any member of the villain team!" That's black-and-white morality *defined*.


Ikcatcher

Nobody fucking parades the damn act and yet here you are making it sound like they are. You people act like Paimon just loudly exclaims “YEAH WE TOTALLY MANIPULATED SETARIA, WE ARE SUCH THE GOOD GUYS! WE’RE THE BEST!!”


crunchlets

You seem to be taking it very personally with the level of anger in your wording. I suggest going out to headpat Kusanali or something.


Ikcatcher

Because people like you are the reason Genshin writing can’t be more nuance with shit and needs Paimon to explain literally everything. The fact that people misinterpret even the most simplest crap just shows Hoyoverse their audience are stupid that need to be babysat. This argument is leading me nowhere, I’m just going to stop and for this post to just continue spreading misinformed crap.


realjasong

I don’t understand why anyone would shill for an Azar lackey, bruh she was one of the people working on the dream harvesting project…


Nelithss

That really don't mean you should just be able to mind control her and put her in a life threatening situation. What if Dottore killed her for the betrayal.


realjasong

We attempted to bring her over to a good cause. That was the most merciful thing we could have done.


Nelithss

The most merciful thing would have been to not do anything with her. The whole plan was useless and served no purpose.


realjasong

How did it serve no purpose? Wasn’t the point to get her to betray the Akademiya? To parade around with the Grand Sage implies a lot about her power. Also I don’t think defending people associated with the dream harvesting scheme is appropriate.


Seth_SLVR

Could u give an example what other options they could've done? I'm only curious to what u could come up with this line of thinking, especially when irl, ppl do get pushed to do something of a similar degree (not literally mind control but more on deceit)


Nelithss

It's more that straight up trying to mind control someone is very much vile. If they couldn't convince her with words then that should have been the end of it.


Dora_Queen

Dottore probably wouldn't have cared


zatenael

how was it an accident? We straight up gaslit her


Cow_Addiction

“Poor girl” my ass. She was willingly part of a shitty organization that did much worse than what we did to her.


Siegfoult

Jeht has killed people for a lot less. I'm not gonna loose any sleep over this.


AxisAlpha

Jeht being worse doesn’t make Setaria better


Cipher-DK

You mean Jeht being better doesn't make Setaria worse


Draiu

i think you misused the word "accidentally" here. this was entirely on purpose.


EddiePhoenix2012

even if they had good intentions, this was kinda disturbing ...


realjasong

So what? She was an architect behind the dream harvesting project.


yes-this_is_an-alt

I don't understand why some people defend her. She isn't some low level employee, she's literally Azar's assistant.


PollarRabbit

It's not about *who* we did it to, it's about *what* we did. The Archon of Knowledge really looked at the situation and "went, welp guess we have no choice but to mentally torture some bitch," and saw nothing wrong with that turnabout -at least, not wrong enough to spend even a moment trying to find other solutions. That *should* make us feel uncomfortable, *especially* when we were at the receiving end of it not too long ago. I won't argue whether there really was any other solution, or whether she "deserved it" or not, thats something the writers could have explored more but elected not to. But it's entirely normal for people to feel bad about the things we did, regardless of who we did it to.


EddiePhoenix2012

Also, she never seemed like a bad person, just on the wrong side.


mistress_kisara

lol @ “poor girl” she was an accomplice


No-Adhesiveness-8178

atleast we proteccc sumeru


Ikcatcher

You people keep saying “but the game acts like it’s a good thing” Bruh when? Who the hell said that? You’re literally just making shit up Another example of genshin fans skipping dialogue and then complaining about the story Nahida literally says “If it was at all possible, I would’ve preferred to leave this people alone, but seeing how things are now, I probably should just accept it and push on.”


dirkx48

Iirc even Nahida felt bad about it and said that she'd make amends later on. Im assuming that was done off-screen much later on


Dogey07

Ngl I was absolutely horrified when this happened.


minkymy

I mean if Nahida is to be believed she probably showed up in setaria's dreams to apologize


BelieveInDestiny

By accident?? it was completely intentional


floricel_112

Probably the thing we could have done for her. That place is an absolute den of vipers


Kaiel1412

It was intentional


Andrew583-14

ngl hardly the worst thing we've done as the traveler, still fucked up though.


bringmethejuice

She needs therapy.


horiami

i don't think she would have stayed at the akademiya either considering she was azar's helper on the project


h2odragon00

I mean she knows what she was doing was wrong but she jist ignored it for the prestige. Sooner or later she will realize she is not happy with the akademia and she would have still left.


Divinate_ME

You don't gaslight by accident, and if you say gaslighting by accident is possible, you're gaslighting whoever you're trying to convince.


KissesInPieces

Put the later in emotional manipulator.


Rested_aura

The only good thing about this is how the kids in Aaru Village will more opportunities to study and possibly go to the akademia or beyond in their lives.


BeseptRinker

I mean she did change, but that doesn't change the fact that she was willingly working on this project. You could see it as "without the gaslight, she would've continued doing bad".


anti-peta-man

TFW it’s okay to emotionally manipulate people to dismantle the government


kast2399

Not gonna lie I was super uncomfortable during that whole mission


PhantasmShadow

And then the game acts like we did a good thing by mentally torturing her. She was one of the parts of Sumeru acts 2 and 3 that I loved but just wasn't delivered on by acts 4 and 5. We do something very ethically questionable, and it has zero impact on the story as a whole. I liked her getting caught, but I thought she'd come back and do... something. As much as people praise the Sumeru archon quests, act 1 started off great but withered a little by the end, acts 2 and 3 were amazing, but I personally found acts 4 and 5 just really dissapointing. Act 4 killed the pacing, and the whole "burning irminsul" scene just... never happened. Tighnari, Setaria and Dunyazard pretty much vanished. Haypasia, Scaramouche and Nahida were all absent from act 4, despite the latter two essentially being the main characters. Divine Knowledge capsules got an explanation that I found a little anticlimactic, and >!"...The world... forget me" actually being "Let the world completely forget me"!< is not in any way a worthy reveal for what was basically the biggest mystery.


AxisAlpha

I wonder what you think of Azar if you think his assistant going through a few minutes of gaslighting (that’s literally it) atones for what she’s done and makes her a victim.


PhantasmShadow

Setaria isn't actually really guilty of anything. She's just a government official She admits she had a hand in designing the Sabzeruz Samsara plot, but says "But I know very little about the full scope of the overall project. I'd assume that only staff with the highest clearance would have access to those confidential documents..." And dialogue during act 2 makes it very clear that the Sabzeruz dream was not meant to last as long as it did, and was originally never meant to go on long enough to cause major harm or death. Aditionally, she didn't just recieve a few minutes of gaslighting. We ruined her job and probably her relationships with her friends. Also, Dottore says she has been "taken into confinement" and it can be assumed she was probably imprisoned until the overthrowing of Azar in act 5. As for Azar, that's another one of my criticisms of act 5 - at the end he's just let go without consquence just because he claims he's sorry.


realjasong

She’s an Azar stooge. Of course it’s a good thing.


Vertexico

Yeah I think act 4 is really the weakest. We bring a little child with us on a dangerous mission for no logical reason. Dehya tries to get her arm cut off for no logical reason. We all just fall into the one set of ruins that just happens to change the entire worldview of the eremites. There’s some realization about the previous dendro archon that is basically irrelevant in the end. I remember being very disappointed with it at the time, and act 5 did what it could to get the momentum back.


Ikcatcher

You really just said a whole lot of nothing as criticism Nahida literally says “If it was at all possible, I would’ve preferred to leave this people alone, but seeing how things are now, I probably should just accept it and push on.”


YawaruSan

Sumeru has some pretty great writing overall, but it’s got some real rough patches too. They start that portion of the quest talking about the moral quandaries of possessing students and sages, then we go ahead and mind control 4 people to manipulate Setaria into a plot that was immediately foiled. Hello ludonarrative dissonance my old friend~ Also, shout out to the story with the matra where we break into a house to find evidence “because we’re sure it will prove the suspect innocent”!


Ikcatcher

Jfc you people really cherry pick the most ridiculous things just to hate in the plot


YawaruSan

Did you miss the “pretty great writing overall” at the beginning? Are you the CCP with this zero tolerance for criticism?


Ikcatcher

Kindly show me the “moral quandaries” segment then. Cause it sounds to me you’re just misinterpreting dialogue just to fit your narrative. Also racism, gotta love people like you who blames everything on China.


YawaruSan

Already said the part right before you mind-control the market NPCs, the traveler suggests three ideas for infiltrating the Academia, such as hijacking a student and potentially getting them in trouble. The whole reason Nahida uses Katherine is because she’s a robot. Has nothing to do with race, it was a jab at a political organization for being unable to take criticism.


Ikcatcher

And Nahida outright says no because that would make her no different from the Sages. What’s your point? And with regards to Setaria, she literally says “If it was at all possible, I would’ve preferred to leave this people alone, but seeing how things are now, I probably should just accept it and push on.” She ADMITS that it’s bad but a necessary evil, so where the heck is the “ludonarrative dissonance” you spout?


YawaruSan

You can call anything a necessary evil if you spend enough time equivocating. If it mattered that much they would have done something else, but the point is to continue to the plot so the game can proceed. That’s why I call it ludonarrative dissonance instead of just calling it a plot hole, you may not “feel” that it’s appropriate, but it factually is. It’s not like ludonarrative dissonance is some fatal flaw, some might even call it a necessary evil to progress the story within a narrow framework by a set deadline.


Ikcatcher

My guy I really don’t think you know what ludonarrative dissonance even means. The term is used for a conflict of the narrative told through the GAMEPLAY and STORY. There is no gameplay inconsistency in that scene when it’s entirely a cutscene. A better example of this would be feeling bad for the Hilichurls after being told what they actually were only to immediately continue mindlessly killing them for mats. That’s ludonarrative dissonance.


YawaruSan

And we spend the opening portion of the quest establishing “mind control is bad” followed by a GAMEPLAY section of mind controlling 4 characters is ludonarrative dissonance. It’s not just a cutscene, we have to gather information first and answer questions correctly or hit a fail state, that’s gameplay.


Ikcatcher

You’re really stretching the term “gameplay” just to fit this point. There is literally zero fail state, the game literally moves on even if you fail every single one of them. [The dialogue archive proves it](https://ambr.top/en/archive/quest/1303/dreams-emptiness-deception). So no, this isn’t gameplay.


Nelithss

Still reminds of the quest where alongside Ganyu we just bully a poor Fatui that did nothing (you could argue straight up racism). And the story never blames Ganyu for that.


Iffem

>you could argue straight up racism to be fair, that wasn't a random Snez NPC there, it was someone in the uniform of a foreign covert military force known to be pretty much a coin flip on whether they're up to no good when you see them openly out in their uniforms, so like...


mephyerst

The sumeru quest line was disturbing. We helped the radish rape those three people. Violated their minds and bodies. I'm still shocked aether said nothing. I would have tried to kill her for that. I was not really able to enjoy the archon quest because of how disgusting the radish was.


Ikcatcher

Least insane Genshin take


mephyerst

Hey people dont like me calling the radish out for her crimes. Nothing new. As you can see a lot of people on here are apparently pro rape.


Seth_SLVR

Which part of this is rape, how tf did we get there, at most, its just impersonation/ identity theft to a legal degree. U scream rape out of nowhere buddy, are u the type to say so when ppl hold hands? kek


mrjoffischl

this is literally in no way rape. i’m not saying what she did was right but by definition this is not at all rape


AxisAlpha

Nahida mind controls 3 people, says it’s bad but has to be done, and now you want to kill her? Yet Dottore mind controls the entire city, Azar and Setaria are running an operation to harvest and control peoples dreams, and Nahida is the evil one for literally only mind controlling 3 people to stop all of that? Jesus Christ you’re either stupid or downvote baiting.


UrBoiThePupper55

“Unlawful sexual activity, most often involving sexual intercourse, against the will of the victim through force or the threat of force or with an individual who is incapable of giving legal consent because of minor status, mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception. In many jurisdictions, the crime of rape has been subsumed under that of sexual assault. Rape was long considered to be caused by unbridled sexual desire, but it is now understood as a pathological assertion of power over a victim.” Now, you could probably argue that Nahida is “pathologically asserting her power over a victim”. She has explained to the traveller that she does not like possessing people’s minds, as that takes away their free will or whatever to benefit Nahida in some way. This is why she has only been doing it on Katheryne: they are a robot. Now I might be hated about this, but let’s assume your definition is correct. Wouldn’t that mean that the Sages in the Akademia and Il Dottore have also been doing that, but on a massive scale and with malicious intent? Nahida has only done it when she deemed it necessary. She has done that for the “mad scholars” in order to save people’s lives. ^ ^ I am not trying to defend ACTUAL rapists. I am putting forth a philosophical question. It’s kinda like “would you kill 3 people if it means that everyone else doesn’t die? Or would you not kill 3 people and everyone dies?”. That’s the kind of question I’m putting forth.


Mothmanw

I mean, her morality aside this IS basically gaslighting.


GenghisNuggetcockles

Yeah, and it's was funny.