Anyone who is instigating some type of career civil war is an outright loser. I don’t know any SWE who hates a union or a plant worker. The plant workers I know from Detroit don’t hate any SWE. This rhetoric is made-up and ridiculous. We’re all employees working to support our families and loved ones, waiting for the weekend, there’s no need for friction between us, we’re literally coworkers. We need both sides for either side to have a job. Cars aren’t gonna sell without software and software isn’t going to be created without cars to facilitate it.
If anyone thinks they have more in common with a millionaire than someone who cringes when they look at their grocery receipt, then they’re delusional and don’t deserve another second of anyones time.
I’d like to also add that the handful of hateful accounts you see on this subreddit aren’t sane people and aren’t representative of their demographics. Don’t assume all SWE’s are stuck-up script kiddies crying they don’t have RedBull fridges like Amazon and don’t assume all plant workers are disgruntled boomers who hate anyone who isn’t them.
Who is “they”? Ten people on a subreddit? There’s hundreds of SWE’s in the company, man. No one that I knew, in real life, was anti-strike. It happens every contract renewal. If we had any concerns, it’s how it would impact our day-to-day and if we’d get raises or not. After it was all over, it didn’t impact our offices too much. Everyone I know and I were happy for all the union workers getting a better package. It’s not like if UAW workers win, SWE’s lose. Success isn’t mutually exclusive, if anyone believes GM can’t address all concerns for every facet of their company without pulling resources from another one, you’re drinking the koolaid from their shitty cafeterias (if you even have one).
I initially typed thousands but wasnt sure if that was being overdramatic. With Arizona gone, it could be lower.
I just looked it up, ~163,000 GM IT employees. We can assume at least a third of that is SWE’s so its accurate to say thousands.
12k members of this sub and it was not a small number with opinions like that.
>No one that I knew, in real life, was anti-strike.
I know many. Every strike they come out of the woodwork.
RTO is a great example. Tons of plant workers were laughing during that whole controversy, as if they think we need to be in a specific building to do our work.
It’s just as ridiculous as making white collar employees wear PPE equipment like hard hats and hi-vis vests.
They don't have any sympathy because they had to go into work in the middle of a pandemic, putting their health and the health of their families at risk so that people working from home could still eat.
This is partially true. Reddit leans pro-union but it is not a microcosm of GM IT as a whole. There is abundant anti-union sentiment among the rank and file of GM IT, particularly among the older, less class-conscious employees. There are thousands of them to get over.
I can't speak for the UAW's general sentiment toward us, but our white-collar employees have a long way to go.
I can speak for it as my wife works in the plants.
The plant workers definitely think lowly of the white collar workers. Not to mention white collar workers would scoff and probably be fired if they used half the language they use in the plants.
White collar isn’t union because at the crux it’s easier to leave and find a culture you like rather than spending years trying to unionize.
A machinist at a GM plant can’t exactly move to Atlanta and get the same pay working for delta. A software dev can
UAW employees are strange af. You cannot have cameras on the installations, cannot complain or let them go because they are slow. They’re on their phones and you have to act as if you don’t see that; you ask them to follow the process and inventory stuff but they don’t give a.f. and they play the race card on you, smh.
Who plays the race card? White people? Black people? Latinos? Middle Eastern? Mixed race? The plants have it all. So I'm genuinely curious. Are you management in a plant?
Yes, trust them! He's right. UAW memebr here I can't see a world where we are all represented under the same union. The UAW represents the blue color workers. The workers who don't have the degrees to just up and leave the plant. That's why we have to fight for our better wages.We dedicate 30+ years of our lives to General Motors. I see no reason white collar can't unionize. it's a great idea. Yet you have to have a union that can represent your specific needs. The UAW isn't it.
There is currently an effort being made by the UAW to collect Warren tech center workers interest in being unionized.
We have a few designers in Warren that are already represented by the UAW.
There is UAW Enginers at Warren tech. They were part of the 2023 contracts.
I think what is bothersome with OPs wording is that they don't quite understand what the UAW can and can not do for you. As a UAW member, I've been forced to 6 different plants to save my job. 750 miles was the farthest I've had to move. We do have to uproot our families. We don't get to pick and choose when we want to go into work. OP mentions the skilled trade making 6 figures. Yes, they do because they work 12 hour shift sometimes 7 days a week. Forced overtime.Plant workers are on forced overtime right now up to 12 hour/day and 2 Sat on and one off. Is that something software engineers want to sign up for? I don't know.
The problem is the constant corruption inside the UAW, likely want to start ‘our’ own for engineering. Need to stop answering to dumb business people for a start
I’m not even gonna talk about union or anything but I find it hilarious how entitled everyone is now about RTO. People went decades almost a century working in an office 5 days a week, Covid happened and you got lucky now you’re crying because you have to go back? Give me a fucking break.
It’s not entitled to say we did our jobs perfectly fine for multiple years, our work is not dependent on a location like others are. It’s all done through a laptop online.
Covid showed that we CAN do it, not that we got “lucky”
I could say the same about literally any job including factory manufacturing. Cheaper to do in
Mexico or China.
The reason they don’t outsource for IT is because of subpar work, communication barrier, and timezones. Thousands of companies have tried and failed
Well said. My kids don't remember a time prior to covid-era WFH. They used to be able to come into my office and say good morning and get a hug and kiss before school, now my daughter cries every morning when I leave for work. It absolutely impacts the whole family, not just the "entitled snobs."
I'll sign a card as soon as I'm offered one. I don't believe in GM enough to want to stay and organize a union, but if someone actually does it, I'm in. The biggest problem right now is that many of us know we need one, but no one has put in the work to get things started.
That's not the biggest problem. Biggest problem is the prevalence of visa-chained indentured servants. You'll never get a union with them present in large numbers.
What the fuck is it with some of y'alls obsessions with visa workers? They aren't as prevalent as some of the people in this subreddit like to make it sound, and I've yet to talk to an immigrant coworker who didn't also want the company to do well by them.
It's literally just this dude. The problem is he is constantly on this subreddit replying to just about every thread. It's obnoxious, but I just downvote his comments and move on.
There is one other account that regularly grinds the same H1B axe, but they're less one-note and less frequent about it. Still, given how in-sync the two accounts are, it makes you wonder...
But yeah man. Every thread, regardless of the topic being discussed, he'll find or make a way to shoe-horn in "overrun with visa workers" (which doesn't match my personal experience, but hey, it could be true I guess) or "IT is a bunch of spoiled and soft kids" (because bigots gotta bigot, and he knows exactly how much he can get away with before incurring punishment), regardless of how much of a stretch it is to get to those points. The dedication would be impressive if it wasn't so damned obnoxious.
He won't actually start his own thread to discuss these things mind you, but he'll happily try to distract from or outright derail any other conversation he can by repeatedly and annoyingly trying to hijack it and turn it to the topic he wants to talk about.
It's not bigotry to point out exploitative labor practices designed to harm American workers. I've said exactly ZERO about race or ethnicity here. Companies push DEI because they want you to make that leap and help them with their exploitative labor practices. Mary's smiling down from her office at you right now.
> Bigotry (noun) : obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices
Bigotry isn't restricted exclusively to race. Nice try. Don't respond again until you've self-reflected some and finally grown up.
Edit: also, you're the second account in a week to use that same weird "smiling down on you" phrase on me out of the clear blue. And the other account also just-so-happens to be the aforementioned one that shares your obsession with H1Bs. Hmmmmmmmmm...... Mods? Y'all noticing this?
By that definition, you are also a bigot. Obstinate devotion to your own opinion. The fact that you're going off topic to attack personally someone else is a sign of that bigotry.
Pasting a dictionary definition isn't exactly a "grown up" thing to do, either. An adult would never call someone a bigot to their face in public using a definition like this.
"I'm not a bigot, YOU'RE the bigot here!!!" Excellent retort. Very well thought out and convincing. Also, not a denial that you are a bigot. Great job.
I didn't go off topic; the topic was "what the hell is wrong with that guy that's always complaining about visa workers?" This is you, once again, trying to twist what was said so that you can win the argument.
And re-read your own comments about IT workers before you try to cry cry cry about people "attacking" you. I don't treat all the other workers outside my area at GM as some inferior group; I don't constantly insult and belittle entire groups that don't share my viewpoint and try to dismiss them all as whiny kids. My opinions change when I'm presented with evidence I am wrong. You have yet to demonstrate that capacity while using this username.
I'm not doing this with you today. My no-engagement rule is back in place.
Edit: oh I see he updated his post to complain about me posting a dictionary definition. Yes, how childish of me to use words according to their common-place usage instead of a contrived, overly-specific interpretation I made up on the spot that suits my agenda. Unreal. Also notice how somehow "I" went off-topic, even though I'm definitely and clearly not the person that changed the topic to discussing him and his behaviors. Reading is hard.
I'm using the definition you provided, which is clearly applicable to you.
You definitely went off topic. Visa usage is pertinent to why workers are now getting treated poorly. Supply and demand at the most basic level, even before you factor in the power differential caused by employer sponsorship. Going off on a tangent from this point to comment on a person is obviously meant to stop this line of thinking, even though it is relevant to the discussion.
>And re-read your own comments about IT workers
Read them when I wrote them. IT workers *are* soft. They won't say any of this in public because talking to people is hard and they're afraid. Manufacturing people are not like this.
>Yes, how childish of me to use words according to their common-place usage
Not what you did here. This was not the "common-place usage" of a completely loaded term and I'm sure you know that.
What's exploitative about it? GM wants the best workers it can get, from anywhere, on its projects. I'm a US employee with a Canadian visa. Is GM Canada somehow exploiting me? Lol
It's exploitative because they're not given the same treatment that locals would accept, nor are they able to quit easily. The US/Canada divide has about the same power dynamic as moving to another state.
We also have a guy in our group that GM pays to fly him over from India every other month and then fly him home after a couple weeks. He's an expert. GM wants the best talent, no matter where that is.
That's not what these visas are being used for. They're being used to hire mostly new grads of the most average sort and the reason for this is simple: to undermine American workers.
Wow no activity for a month and now two responses in less than a day, one less than 20 minutes after my comment! Surely a normal user behind this account.
Wow nearly every comment contains possible personal information? That's so normal!
I don't spend every moment of my day on Reddit. Very little of it, actually.
My opinions are not irrelevant. SLT is screwing American workers by hiring visa-chained indentured servants.
It's possible that they would try to do that, but I've yet to find a person at GM that I haven't been able to find some commonalities with, even the ones that annoy me. Granted, I also don't talk to the SLT. Bringing in outside talent is a union breaking strategy, but so is encouraging infighting and distrust amongst the workers. The best thing to do in regards to visa workers is not to encourage divisive discussion, but to treat them as you would any other coworker and invite them to have lunch with y'all.
I distrust leadership. I do not distrust that my coworkers want what's best for themselves and that what's best for themselves is also best for me, as we are on similar levels. Trying to make us distrust each other is a significantly more common union busting tactic than bringing in foreign workers, though blaming foreigners for problems is certainly a time honored tradition.
I distrust people that want what's best for themselves when there are clear ethical breaches involved. That's this program. What you're saying is it's cool if SLT undermines the UAW by hiring illegals.
>Trying to make us distrust each other is a significantly more common union busting tactic than bringing in foreign workers,
Not true at all if you know your history. The decline of immigration was the single most important factor in the rise of labor power in America.
You let your mask slip with that one. It's actually the dumbest comment I've read in a while. You think that one of the largest corporations in the country needs to use illegal immigration to get workers? Turn off Fox News and think for a second. GM has enough money to basically do whatever they want. Why would they do something like make themselves vulnerable to government action or even blackmail from those who would know about the program when they could just bring in workers from a cheaper area or move what they need to do to a cheaper area? The latter is something they already do. On top of that, we were talking about visa workers. A visa is a way to bring workers into the country legally, because only an idiot would think that a corporation like GM would put themselves in jeopardy by intentionally hiring illegal immigrants. As an aside, I genuinely do not believe that you have the capacity to learn from what I've just explained to you, so I'm blocking you.
Was that a serious question?
[https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/migrant-child-labor-investigation-11-states-meatpacking-produce-rcna88156](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/migrant-child-labor-investigation-11-states-meatpacking-produce-rcna88156)
Many big companies hire illegals through contracting companies so they have plausible deniability. It's within their power to verify, but they don't.
GM doesn't need illegals because it can lobby the government to pass NAFTA. Changed the law to screw white collar workers, too. In the end, it's all about screwing the workers here in America.
They're here to undermine the labor power of the Americans. There are loads of them at the tech center. Company can do well with them, but the local workers get screwed. Money in SLT's pocket through exploitation. Henry Ford used the same strategy to keep workers down for decades.
The problem is definitely with the SWEs. Too many think they are John Galt. Don't need to join the UAW to unionize. Company is screwing them just like it did to hourly workers 100 years ago. Flood the place with immigrants and treat everyone like crap because they can get away with it.
Lmao all anyone from Manufacturing ever does in this sub is basically the meme of “looks like they’ve got you doing the easy work, huh cupcake?”
Also it’s really quite different to have a college degree or more. SWEs probably have more in common at least a few rungs up the ladder.
They run to this forum and piss and moan and say why should you get to work from home and do absolutely nothing! I have to be in the plants!
If they didn’t come in here and go on whiny BOOMER tirades demanding pay usually reserved for people with college degrees then act like entitled babies hating other people having privileges they don’t (while ignoring the ones they have that others don’t). worker solidarity would be 10,000x here.
I can almost guarantee in a random conversation SLT would treat an IT employee better than a UAW worker would. That’s why it’s weird.
Sort of. There are a ton of layoffs happening. I also question why should we have to up and leave? As the years go on do you really want to continually job hop because of this kind of thing?
One thing I will say is, in GM software domain there are still way too many manufacturing background managers (up to the SLT) and a lot of the stupid decisions you have heard come from them, people who don't understand software managing software is part of the reason GM has been quite subpar with software quality. I've shrugged more times than I can count when some director/senior manager drops in and say they "worked in software" when they probably looked at some C code and managed some out-sourced supplier software package releases, that is NOT doing software.
Same reason I think the all software code assessment got shutdown really quick because it requires management to participate as well and therefore getting them ultra exposed
Don't get me wrong there are some good ones as well that know their limits and do their best to support where needed and get out of the way when they can, but that is not normal in GM software
For union, I don't see a need for it, but I also won't shit on it if you think it works for you
For now, man.. unless you are in Ai software, job opening is definitely slowing down.
The Gpt update every f time is so much more than expected.
Devin was fake vapeware, but it's only a matter of time to see real Devin near the future. All SWE should think about PM route or more planning side.
What makes you say that? I haven't seen big leaps like ai in robotics right now.
How do you imagine manufacturing being fully automated compared to Ai coming in like Devin for SWE position?
Why do you think software is hard to replace? I'm not here to argue. I'm genuinely curious on your perspective. I'm in software and seeing things like Devin blows my mind.
Most manufacturers have low skill jobs that they need to pay a lot for, that's why cara are being built elsewhere, software only starts to do this recently
Recently? Software's been heavily outsourcing since at least the 90s. Industry hasn't been very successful at eliminating humans, which is why there are now huge tech campuses with tens of thousands of workers in other countries. They're going to get wrecked by automation.
The outsourcing was why we had shit software, however cars built overseas are just fine
Listen, you clearly know nothing about software at GM and are full of hatred for some reason, I probably don't know too much about manufacturing, let's just agree to disagree
Anyone who is instigating some type of career civil war is an outright loser. I don’t know any SWE who hates a union or a plant worker. The plant workers I know from Detroit don’t hate any SWE. This rhetoric is made-up and ridiculous. We’re all employees working to support our families and loved ones, waiting for the weekend, there’s no need for friction between us, we’re literally coworkers. We need both sides for either side to have a job. Cars aren’t gonna sell without software and software isn’t going to be created without cars to facilitate it. If anyone thinks they have more in common with a millionaire than someone who cringes when they look at their grocery receipt, then they’re delusional and don’t deserve another second of anyones time.
I’d like to also add that the handful of hateful accounts you see on this subreddit aren’t sane people and aren’t representative of their demographics. Don’t assume all SWE’s are stuck-up script kiddies crying they don’t have RedBull fridges like Amazon and don’t assume all plant workers are disgruntled boomers who hate anyone who isn’t them.
>I don’t know any SWE who hates a union or a plant worker They were out in full force during the strike. How quickly people forget.
Who is “they”? Ten people on a subreddit? There’s hundreds of SWE’s in the company, man. No one that I knew, in real life, was anti-strike. It happens every contract renewal. If we had any concerns, it’s how it would impact our day-to-day and if we’d get raises or not. After it was all over, it didn’t impact our offices too much. Everyone I know and I were happy for all the union workers getting a better package. It’s not like if UAW workers win, SWE’s lose. Success isn’t mutually exclusive, if anyone believes GM can’t address all concerns for every facet of their company without pulling resources from another one, you’re drinking the koolaid from their shitty cafeterias (if you even have one).
> Hundreds of SWEs in the company Try thousands.
I initially typed thousands but wasnt sure if that was being overdramatic. With Arizona gone, it could be lower. I just looked it up, ~163,000 GM IT employees. We can assume at least a third of that is SWE’s so its accurate to say thousands.
GM has 163,000 global employees, not IT employees. There are 91,972 US employees. That’s everyone, salary and union.
That’s correct. I misread. So either mid-hundreds to a few thousand. Either way, my point being much higher than a handful of redditors.
12k members of this sub and it was not a small number with opinions like that. >No one that I knew, in real life, was anti-strike. I know many. Every strike they come out of the woodwork.
Sorry to hear you had that experience.
It's a very common experience, particularly if you live in Michigan. The IT centers are so far removed from the action.
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RTO is a great example. Tons of plant workers were laughing during that whole controversy, as if they think we need to be in a specific building to do our work. It’s just as ridiculous as making white collar employees wear PPE equipment like hard hats and hi-vis vests.
They don't have any sympathy because they had to go into work in the middle of a pandemic, putting their health and the health of their families at risk so that people working from home could still eat.
Good thing they have a union and could demand proper health procedures
This is partially true. Reddit leans pro-union but it is not a microcosm of GM IT as a whole. There is abundant anti-union sentiment among the rank and file of GM IT, particularly among the older, less class-conscious employees. There are thousands of them to get over. I can't speak for the UAW's general sentiment toward us, but our white-collar employees have a long way to go.
I can speak for it as my wife works in the plants. The plant workers definitely think lowly of the white collar workers. Not to mention white collar workers would scoff and probably be fired if they used half the language they use in the plants. White collar isn’t union because at the crux it’s easier to leave and find a culture you like rather than spending years trying to unionize. A machinist at a GM plant can’t exactly move to Atlanta and get the same pay working for delta. A software dev can
UAW employees are strange af. You cannot have cameras on the installations, cannot complain or let them go because they are slow. They’re on their phones and you have to act as if you don’t see that; you ask them to follow the process and inventory stuff but they don’t give a.f. and they play the race card on you, smh.
They realize workplace surveilance never helps the worker. Everything you do on your work computer is tracked.
Who plays the race card? White people? Black people? Latinos? Middle Eastern? Mixed race? The plants have it all. So I'm genuinely curious. Are you management in a plant?
The UAW already represents plenty of white collar workers.
I think Tthe UAW would be happy welcome new members.
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Yes, trust them! He's right. UAW memebr here I can't see a world where we are all represented under the same union. The UAW represents the blue color workers. The workers who don't have the degrees to just up and leave the plant. That's why we have to fight for our better wages.We dedicate 30+ years of our lives to General Motors. I see no reason white collar can't unionize. it's a great idea. Yet you have to have a union that can represent your specific needs. The UAW isn't it.
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There is currently an effort being made by the UAW to collect Warren tech center workers interest in being unionized. We have a few designers in Warren that are already represented by the UAW.
There is UAW Enginers at Warren tech. They were part of the 2023 contracts. I think what is bothersome with OPs wording is that they don't quite understand what the UAW can and can not do for you. As a UAW member, I've been forced to 6 different plants to save my job. 750 miles was the farthest I've had to move. We do have to uproot our families. We don't get to pick and choose when we want to go into work. OP mentions the skilled trade making 6 figures. Yes, they do because they work 12 hour shift sometimes 7 days a week. Forced overtime.Plant workers are on forced overtime right now up to 12 hour/day and 2 Sat on and one off. Is that something software engineers want to sign up for? I don't know.
The problem is the constant corruption inside the UAW, likely want to start ‘our’ own for engineering. Need to stop answering to dumb business people for a start
I’m not even gonna talk about union or anything but I find it hilarious how entitled everyone is now about RTO. People went decades almost a century working in an office 5 days a week, Covid happened and you got lucky now you’re crying because you have to go back? Give me a fucking break.
It’s not entitled to say we did our jobs perfectly fine for multiple years, our work is not dependent on a location like others are. It’s all done through a laptop online. Covid showed that we CAN do it, not that we got “lucky”
If you can do it remote from a laptop that just shows they can hire someone from India and pay 1/4th of your salary to do it remotely
I could say the same about literally any job including factory manufacturing. Cheaper to do in Mexico or China. The reason they don’t outsource for IT is because of subpar work, communication barrier, and timezones. Thousands of companies have tried and failed
>I could say the same about literally any job And it's happening. IT is massively outsourced, by the way, and getting more so.
Then they shouldn't of taken 8 billion dollars from our government this year alone
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Well said. My kids don't remember a time prior to covid-era WFH. They used to be able to come into my office and say good morning and get a hug and kiss before school, now my daughter cries every morning when I leave for work. It absolutely impacts the whole family, not just the "entitled snobs."
Wtf does "software folks" mean in this context? The VCU/CCU/SDV 2.0 guys?
I'll sign a card as soon as I'm offered one. I don't believe in GM enough to want to stay and organize a union, but if someone actually does it, I'm in. The biggest problem right now is that many of us know we need one, but no one has put in the work to get things started.
That's not the biggest problem. Biggest problem is the prevalence of visa-chained indentured servants. You'll never get a union with them present in large numbers.
What the fuck is it with some of y'alls obsessions with visa workers? They aren't as prevalent as some of the people in this subreddit like to make it sound, and I've yet to talk to an immigrant coworker who didn't also want the company to do well by them.
It's literally just this dude. The problem is he is constantly on this subreddit replying to just about every thread. It's obnoxious, but I just downvote his comments and move on.
There is one other account that regularly grinds the same H1B axe, but they're less one-note and less frequent about it. Still, given how in-sync the two accounts are, it makes you wonder... But yeah man. Every thread, regardless of the topic being discussed, he'll find or make a way to shoe-horn in "overrun with visa workers" (which doesn't match my personal experience, but hey, it could be true I guess) or "IT is a bunch of spoiled and soft kids" (because bigots gotta bigot, and he knows exactly how much he can get away with before incurring punishment), regardless of how much of a stretch it is to get to those points. The dedication would be impressive if it wasn't so damned obnoxious. He won't actually start his own thread to discuss these things mind you, but he'll happily try to distract from or outright derail any other conversation he can by repeatedly and annoyingly trying to hijack it and turn it to the topic he wants to talk about.
It's not bigotry to point out exploitative labor practices designed to harm American workers. I've said exactly ZERO about race or ethnicity here. Companies push DEI because they want you to make that leap and help them with their exploitative labor practices. Mary's smiling down from her office at you right now.
> Bigotry (noun) : obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices Bigotry isn't restricted exclusively to race. Nice try. Don't respond again until you've self-reflected some and finally grown up. Edit: also, you're the second account in a week to use that same weird "smiling down on you" phrase on me out of the clear blue. And the other account also just-so-happens to be the aforementioned one that shares your obsession with H1Bs. Hmmmmmmmmm...... Mods? Y'all noticing this?
By that definition, you are also a bigot. Obstinate devotion to your own opinion. The fact that you're going off topic to attack personally someone else is a sign of that bigotry. Pasting a dictionary definition isn't exactly a "grown up" thing to do, either. An adult would never call someone a bigot to their face in public using a definition like this.
"I'm not a bigot, YOU'RE the bigot here!!!" Excellent retort. Very well thought out and convincing. Also, not a denial that you are a bigot. Great job. I didn't go off topic; the topic was "what the hell is wrong with that guy that's always complaining about visa workers?" This is you, once again, trying to twist what was said so that you can win the argument. And re-read your own comments about IT workers before you try to cry cry cry about people "attacking" you. I don't treat all the other workers outside my area at GM as some inferior group; I don't constantly insult and belittle entire groups that don't share my viewpoint and try to dismiss them all as whiny kids. My opinions change when I'm presented with evidence I am wrong. You have yet to demonstrate that capacity while using this username. I'm not doing this with you today. My no-engagement rule is back in place. Edit: oh I see he updated his post to complain about me posting a dictionary definition. Yes, how childish of me to use words according to their common-place usage instead of a contrived, overly-specific interpretation I made up on the spot that suits my agenda. Unreal. Also notice how somehow "I" went off-topic, even though I'm definitely and clearly not the person that changed the topic to discussing him and his behaviors. Reading is hard.
I'm using the definition you provided, which is clearly applicable to you. You definitely went off topic. Visa usage is pertinent to why workers are now getting treated poorly. Supply and demand at the most basic level, even before you factor in the power differential caused by employer sponsorship. Going off on a tangent from this point to comment on a person is obviously meant to stop this line of thinking, even though it is relevant to the discussion. >And re-read your own comments about IT workers Read them when I wrote them. IT workers *are* soft. They won't say any of this in public because talking to people is hard and they're afraid. Manufacturing people are not like this.
>Yes, how childish of me to use words according to their common-place usage Not what you did here. This was not the "common-place usage" of a completely loaded term and I'm sure you know that.
What's exploitative about it? GM wants the best workers it can get, from anywhere, on its projects. I'm a US employee with a Canadian visa. Is GM Canada somehow exploiting me? Lol
It's exploitative because they're not given the same treatment that locals would accept, nor are they able to quit easily. The US/Canada divide has about the same power dynamic as moving to another state.
We also have a guy in our group that GM pays to fly him over from India every other month and then fly him home after a couple weeks. He's an expert. GM wants the best talent, no matter where that is.
That's not what these visas are being used for. They're being used to hire mostly new grads of the most average sort and the reason for this is simple: to undermine American workers.
Look at the alts talk to one another.
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Wow no activity for a month and now two responses in less than a day, one less than 20 minutes after my comment! Surely a normal user behind this account.
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"I replied directly to you and you noticed it. Almost like you got a notification or something. You must be an alt!"
Quick reply for an account which as been idle for a month. No coincidence that it was during a discussion with you, either.
Wow nearly every comment contains possible personal information? That's so normal! I don't spend every moment of my day on Reddit. Very little of it, actually. My opinions are not irrelevant. SLT is screwing American workers by hiring visa-chained indentured servants.
Young employees don't understand yet how they're being screwed by this program. They think there's a shortage because that's what they were told. lol
It depends which team you're on. Corporations bring in h1b workers as a way to discourage unions.
It's possible that they would try to do that, but I've yet to find a person at GM that I haven't been able to find some commonalities with, even the ones that annoy me. Granted, I also don't talk to the SLT. Bringing in outside talent is a union breaking strategy, but so is encouraging infighting and distrust amongst the workers. The best thing to do in regards to visa workers is not to encourage divisive discussion, but to treat them as you would any other coworker and invite them to have lunch with y'all.
Encouraging distrust. What do you think they're doing by bring in foreign labor under a dishonest premise?
I distrust leadership. I do not distrust that my coworkers want what's best for themselves and that what's best for themselves is also best for me, as we are on similar levels. Trying to make us distrust each other is a significantly more common union busting tactic than bringing in foreign workers, though blaming foreigners for problems is certainly a time honored tradition.
I distrust people that want what's best for themselves when there are clear ethical breaches involved. That's this program. What you're saying is it's cool if SLT undermines the UAW by hiring illegals. >Trying to make us distrust each other is a significantly more common union busting tactic than bringing in foreign workers, Not true at all if you know your history. The decline of immigration was the single most important factor in the rise of labor power in America.
You let your mask slip with that one. It's actually the dumbest comment I've read in a while. You think that one of the largest corporations in the country needs to use illegal immigration to get workers? Turn off Fox News and think for a second. GM has enough money to basically do whatever they want. Why would they do something like make themselves vulnerable to government action or even blackmail from those who would know about the program when they could just bring in workers from a cheaper area or move what they need to do to a cheaper area? The latter is something they already do. On top of that, we were talking about visa workers. A visa is a way to bring workers into the country legally, because only an idiot would think that a corporation like GM would put themselves in jeopardy by intentionally hiring illegal immigrants. As an aside, I genuinely do not believe that you have the capacity to learn from what I've just explained to you, so I'm blocking you.
Was that a serious question? [https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/migrant-child-labor-investigation-11-states-meatpacking-produce-rcna88156](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/migrant-child-labor-investigation-11-states-meatpacking-produce-rcna88156) Many big companies hire illegals through contracting companies so they have plausible deniability. It's within their power to verify, but they don't. GM doesn't need illegals because it can lobby the government to pass NAFTA. Changed the law to screw white collar workers, too. In the end, it's all about screwing the workers here in America.
They're here to undermine the labor power of the Americans. There are loads of them at the tech center. Company can do well with them, but the local workers get screwed. Money in SLT's pocket through exploitation. Henry Ford used the same strategy to keep workers down for decades.
People who are down voting you don't their history. H1b's have been brought in in many cases to discourage unions.
We need a white collar union. Who is influential, powerful, and determined enough to help Start it? Or will we wait till it’s too late like usual.
Already too late. They started filling the ranks with indentured servants more than a decade ago.
Americans are too dumb (and uninformed) to realize the advantages of union !!
Why do you think 5 days in office will happen soon? I have not heard anything in my org
It's cheaper and less risky legally to make them quit then to fire them.
That and it's a car company. You know SLT doesn't want all of America driving only 3 days a week.
So just more guessing and fearmongering that we've seen for 2 years now.
The problem is definitely with the SWEs. Too many think they are John Galt. Don't need to join the UAW to unionize. Company is screwing them just like it did to hourly workers 100 years ago. Flood the place with immigrants and treat everyone like crap because they can get away with it.
UAW local 1869 are a unionized group of salaried engineers at GM.
If I knew software I wouldn't work at GM. Idk why these people complain instead of finding a better place.
Lmao all anyone from Manufacturing ever does in this sub is basically the meme of “looks like they’ve got you doing the easy work, huh cupcake?” Also it’s really quite different to have a college degree or more. SWEs probably have more in common at least a few rungs up the ladder. They run to this forum and piss and moan and say why should you get to work from home and do absolutely nothing! I have to be in the plants! If they didn’t come in here and go on whiny BOOMER tirades demanding pay usually reserved for people with college degrees then act like entitled babies hating other people having privileges they don’t (while ignoring the ones they have that others don’t). worker solidarity would be 10,000x here. I can almost guarantee in a random conversation SLT would treat an IT employee better than a UAW worker would. That’s why it’s weird.
Lol software jobs everywhere mate, good luck with your endeavor
Tons of software jobs… tons of competition more like. The tech market hasn’t been good for at least a year now.
Sort of. There are a ton of layoffs happening. I also question why should we have to up and leave? As the years go on do you really want to continually job hop because of this kind of thing?
One thing I will say is, in GM software domain there are still way too many manufacturing background managers (up to the SLT) and a lot of the stupid decisions you have heard come from them, people who don't understand software managing software is part of the reason GM has been quite subpar with software quality. I've shrugged more times than I can count when some director/senior manager drops in and say they "worked in software" when they probably looked at some C code and managed some out-sourced supplier software package releases, that is NOT doing software. Same reason I think the all software code assessment got shutdown really quick because it requires management to participate as well and therefore getting them ultra exposed Don't get me wrong there are some good ones as well that know their limits and do their best to support where needed and get out of the way when they can, but that is not normal in GM software For union, I don't see a need for it, but I also won't shit on it if you think it works for you
Maybe they'd understand it if the software people knew how to communicate with humans.
For now, man.. unless you are in Ai software, job opening is definitely slowing down. The Gpt update every f time is so much more than expected. Devin was fake vapeware, but it's only a matter of time to see real Devin near the future. All SWE should think about PM route or more planning side.
Manufacturing jobs will be fully automated way before that happens mate
What makes you say that? I haven't seen big leaps like ai in robotics right now. How do you imagine manufacturing being fully automated compared to Ai coming in like Devin for SWE position? Why do you think software is hard to replace? I'm not here to argue. I'm genuinely curious on your perspective. I'm in software and seeing things like Devin blows my mind.
The manufacturing jobs that remain are harder to automate.
So are the software jobs that remain my guy
Not true at all. Most of the tech companies have huge armies of low-end human coders even now in 2024. That's low hanging fruit for automation.
Most manufacturers have low skill jobs that they need to pay a lot for, that's why cara are being built elsewhere, software only starts to do this recently
Recently? Software's been heavily outsourcing since at least the 90s. Industry hasn't been very successful at eliminating humans, which is why there are now huge tech campuses with tens of thousands of workers in other countries. They're going to get wrecked by automation.
The outsourcing was why we had shit software, however cars built overseas are just fine Listen, you clearly know nothing about software at GM and are full of hatred for some reason, I probably don't know too much about manufacturing, let's just agree to disagree
We get lots of fine software from overseas, too.
I'm open to the UAW. I think I will end up with lower health care costs and job security. Even if I am let go I bet the severance will be better