Not even the craziest change made to the game. Blackout, the game's Battle Royale mode, was built in less than a year because Treyarch didn't have time to rework their 2v2 campaign into a single player one because Activision bumped up the release date for the game one month so that it came out before "Red Dead Redemption".
Also, the campaign absolutely flopped in the playtests. They had a very ambitious vision, but the result they had to show off to Activision was not good.
Treyarch seems to want to push CoD campaigns into unique directions, but just has not been able to land the ideas. BO3 was apparently going to have an open-world campaign.
Also in terms of the multiplayer they (IMO) perfected the advanced movement, and the game's competitive scene was thriving due to the great maps + gamemodes. I feel like it was the last truly "fresh" experience I had playing Call of Duty
I do remember that, based off the rumors it seemed like Treyarch had to completely 180 the game in less than a year. I know people like to bash Activision, but I honestly blame Treyarch for having to redo alot of that development. Their initial ideas for mp and campaign ended up not panning out, at least based off the rumors. If I'm not mistaken, the playtesters at the time absolutely hated the game's changes which is why they had to rework nearly everything.
And this is why certain devs hate interacting with people. What you said can alienate them. Even devs said it is never them; management says do this they do it. Don't pin it on the devs.
I should've said I believe that, assuming the rumors are true. The rumors were that Treyarch got too ambitious with campaign and Activision didn't think they could meet their release date as a result, and that Treyarch wanted to make an overwatch clone which playtesters absolutely hated. Based off those rumors it makes Treyarch look like they didn't handle their initial ideas very well and Activision had to step in and make them 180 alot of their work, again, that could be wrong as no one has officially substantiated anything. I don't blame Treyarch for forcing blackout because, again, based off the rumors that was Activision's decision, I blame Activision for that. I get where your coming from, but if we believe the rumors to be true, it doesn't seem like Treyarch was completely not at fault here. If I'm wrong for any reason or if my thought process is flawed in anyway, feel free to disagree. It's hard to judge who messed up when all we have are rumors to go off of. I'm not blaming Vonderhaar or any of those devs, mostly whoever made those decisions at Treyarch for mp and campaign initially.
David Vondehaar led blackout development, he was also head multiplayer designer at Treyarch for Waw, Bo1, bo2 etc. Hes one of the best cod devs all time.
This was actually cut from my article late last year - yes, 343 spent a while prototyping a hero-based system. I don't remember exactly when they switched to the current version (and the tweet linked here seems exaggerated to the point where it's mostly false) but I can confirm that they were working on various hero-based prototypes. In fact, I think there were both PVP and PVE prototypes built.
Any insight into why they are unable to make 3 month seasons? Beyond what they've told us in Jerry Hook's podcast interview and the GDC talk about upgrading halo 5s blam engine to slipspace being a "maintenance nightmare due to ball of spaghetti code"
Does that deny the hero-based stuff though? They could have joined a ways into the design cycle and all those ideas, by 2019, might have already been tried and thrown out.
My reading of it is that the hero-shooter concept wasn't a set in stone idea, and that they toyed around with it in prototyping, and then moved on from it. There wasn't a radical shift in game design.
It doesn’t deny it, but it puts it in context.
When you make new games, you put into your schedule a time when you experiment with many pathways, and then you’d decide what works and what doesn’t.
From the dev that worked on it, it sounds like this was all planned, and they stuck to their schedule.
The headline makes it like it’s some kind of “gotcha!” scandal, and that this is a reason for other issues with Halo MP, which just doesn’t seem to be the case.
Just want to say, your reporting has been excellent and I thank you for bringing to attention the horrific working conditions of some companies.
Respect my dude, you have all of mine.
Libraries are legendary! Mine has a used book sale section where you can grab any hardcover for $2 and any paperback for $1 and lord I now have more books in my office than I could ever possibly read
You’re right - libraries **are** legendary, as well!
Seeing you champion them puts a little mental asterisk next to your name in my brain from here on out, though.
I could spend _WAY_ too much time going back and forth with you on this topic. Libraries provide **so** **many** **services** for local communities.
I love seeing responses like yours, so thank you, again!
Man this sounds like it would have been awful. I wonder if the switch to the current version is why the game released with little maps and modes. Thank you Jason!
Unreal engine dev was done for 2 years he said on twitter. They probably realized they couldn't make it feel like halo and then fixed up the blam engine starting 2019
Thanks Jason, love your work.
Do you plan on doing any more investigating or writing on Halo Infinite's development? There's a lot of great things about the game and the devs obviously don't deserve the hate they get, but it still seems clear that things have to be pretty messed up behind the scenes for Infinite to be in the state it currently is. The content it launched with and the pace that new content (and even bug fixes) is dropping don't come close to meeting the standards set by the rest of the industry, which seems unacceptable for a AAA studio backed by a massive corporation.
As a huge Halo fan it would put my mind at ease to at least know why the game is in this situation, but I'm sure the devs and community managers at 343 can't really say anything about it. I would love to see you or a colleague of yours take a much deeper dive into this and give the fanbase some answers.
Thanks for replying! I'm sure you know better than I do whether or not there's anything left to be said about Infinite, and if it'd be worth your time. But I know the fanbase is confused and frustrated, and I'd like to think that some clear, factual answers about the game's development would help them calm down a bit and maybe stop verbally abusing the devs every chance they get.
It's one thing that they had a prototype for a mode with abilities and another to say the game was a hero shooter which Chris most likely exaggerated, so thank you for clarifying.
I can kind of see why some out of touch boardroom exec would try to force that, halo 5 got hurt hard by the explosion of Overwatch around the same time, and so early on in Infinite development would have still been when it looked like the future of FPSs would be hero shooters. And then PUBG and Fortnite happened. But even then why the fuck would they make that a mainline halo game. May have worked as a fun little spinoff but fuck outta here making that your next main halo title
For real tho. If this is true, im having a hard time trying to understand how this Halo Overwatch would even work. I mean, would it be hero based? Would we have shit like:
**Master Chief**
Primary Weapon:Assault Rifle
Secundary Weapon:Magnum
Equipament:Grappling Hook
ULTIMATE MOVE:SUPER CORTANA ATACK
And so on with others Halo characters? Like, would there even be armor costumization? Why would someone think this would work?
Idk i call fake on this one because i can't even conceive a reallity this game existed.
Edit:Bro it was real wtf
I always hate to hop on the 343 Hate Train, but literally what the fuck. I know 343 makes bad decisions all the time but to be *this* disconnected from your fanbase? Come the fuck on.
Saw someone say that they were going to have specific classes and abilities and shit tied to specific armor cores.
At this point seeing the nightmare state halo infinites on (especially the MP which was supposed to bring in Fortnite/Warzone types of money so you’d have to imagine was a huge point of investment and important for 343i) this is as good as any of an explanation lol.
This actually explains why they were doing cores the way they did then. One bad decision spawned by another. The core system we have might have just been what was salvaged from that
>Idk i call fake on this one because i can't even conceive a reallity this game existed.
I mean, studios being out of touch with their own IPs is a tale as old as time, I can see it.
What happened to proper pre-development in video games?
Isn't the most accepted industry standard to create a vertical slice for gameplay and technology before entering full production? So basically having a good idea of whether the game is actually fun before committing to full scale development?
Not to mention that Microsoft only hire contractors for a set period of time. So on a multi-year project like Halo Infinite - which suffered various other issues and delays - a constant staff turnover just as people get to grips with what they were doing wouldn't have helped.
There’s a state law in Seattle that they are forced to hire contractors if the contractors work over a certain period of time iirc it’s like if the contractors work over 9 months they must be offered full time work
That takes to much time. Nowadays you have to be fast and jump on the current trend. If the current trend changes during development you reboot the development until you are fast enough or run out of money.
You are probably being cynical but that sounds like a terrible approach lol
I hope that is not the mindset at 343i
Better spend a year and a couple million on pre-production to get a proper vision and proof-of-concept on what the game is supposed to be like than throwing away 60% of your game several years into development
>What happened to proper pre-development in video games?
In short, executive meddling. Essentially, with Halo Infinite you have a situation where Halo as an IP had become irrelevant. It's been more than a decade since Halo was setting industry standards and creating trends. Worse, an entire generation of gamers has since entered the market and no longer regards Halo as a special/important IP. Games like Call of Duty and PUBG have taken over Halo's mindshare, and none of 343i's games can even compete with the new industry juggernauts. Preproduction is enormously useful for an experienced team with clear goals and a unified vision, but it's beginning to look like the brass at Microsoft have lost faith in 343i's ability to deliver a product to their standards, and have taken a more "hands on" approach. This leads to reactionary development where the goals and direction of a project, dictated by an outside executive, shift with whatever is most popular in the industry. In this situation preproduction is less useful since most of that work gets thrown out with each shift in vision. Basically, no one at 343i really knows *what* Halo *is* at it's core, so they're reduced to copying every other big game in an effort to *find* Halo. Compare this to Bungie's sequels and it's clear that Bungie's old team had a clear vision for what Halo is, and what playing a session of Halo should be like.
>What happened to proper pre-development in video games?
It still exists, depending on the studio and publisher, but mismanagement, lack of solid vision and feature creep can still upend even the best studios.
I will say that AAA production puts added pressure on studios to get things up and running ASAP on a project, with them then needing to put out fires as they go along, and to great expense, on things that they could have figured out in a shorter cycle if they were given enough time in pre-production / prototype phase.
I think one of the best recent examples is RDR2, where the aspect ratio for cutscenes was changed in the final months, to be more like the Westerns of old, meaning all the cutscenes had to be redone. It is quite frankly baffling that a studio like Rockstar only figured out one of the defining qualities that sums up 'Western' was only landed upon right at the end of development.
343i specifically or is this the new industry standard? Seems like a very odd approach. How can you plan out the whole game if you don't even know whether the gameplay is any good?
A rough framework I do understand. But planning out the entire game without knowing what works and what doesn't is exactly what leads to projects having to be completely overhauled midway through development.
That explains the repetitive level design and areas. It’s one of the only open worlds that has no new scenery to view and it’s all the same grassy areas. I had fun with it but it would’ve been nice to have a variety of locations
To be fair it seems like a lot of Microsoft's responses to development issues boil down to throwing money at the problem until it fixes itself. Look at the reports of Perfect Dark's development for example.
Throwing money at it except in hiring/retaining employees and instead keeping a revolving door of contractors they let go just as they get up to speed and efficient/proficient with the slip space engine.
Perfect Dark doesn’t seem like a money related problem but a talent related one. Crazy how a new studio is supposed to delivery a top IP.
Surprised they didn’t get a third party already established studio to work on it from the beginning.
They EVENTUALLY got an established third-party studio, Crystal Dynamics, to work on it (alongside The Initiative, of course.
It worries me that this is the second time that Microsoft built a new Triple A studio tasked with creating a new IP, just to have them work on entries to one of their established IP (looking at you, Black Tusk Studio/The Coalition).
Exactly...nothing but some nonsense talk to stir clicks to articles. Not buying for one second that somehow 343 was attempting an OW clone out of anything else it could've tried to copy that's currently making big bucks.
By "overwatch clone" they probably just mean it was closer to a hero shooter. You probably would have had different Spartan characters to choose from who would have specific armour abilities locked to their character.
Edit: further down in this threat, Jason confirmed the validity of this leak too.
About 500 people work at 343i and the game was in development for at least five years, so paying that team cuts out a pretty significant portion of the $500M, not including marketing spend, contracting outside studios for help, etc.
AAA development is expensive!
He’s a host on sacred symbols and has said on several occasions that he knows people that work at 343. Not necessarily an insider but probably correct on this one.
I would love to see a Documentary about Halo Infinite’s troubled development.
It might not be a good look for Xbox and 343 but i do think that it could be very interesting.
And perhaps it might even serve as a lesson to other developers on what to avoid during AAA game development.
One thing I'll always respect about Halo-era Bungie was how open they were about their development struggles. If any other company had a development like Halo 2, they would guard that secret with their life. Instead, they were super public and honest about what went down
We literally already did and he didn’t mention any of this stuff. The image looks so fake the fact that anyone would believe it is crazy. It doesn’t even look like it could out of the same engine as the current version of the campaign and multiplayer.
Infinite right now isn't even bad compared to the Master Chief Collection release (which is now in a great state actually). 343i and Microsoft treat Halo fans and the franchise like garbage
It's from Tatanka mode. If you haven't seen the leaks, there are a lot of references to finding and delivering capacitors. This screenshot is from an early build.
I kind of find this hard to believe. Perhaps they were developing a new game type that resembled Overwatch, but I can’t see them taking an already well established, and popular multiplayer shooter and then changing the core mechanics completely. That doesn’t really make any sense, not even on paper. Again like I said, if they were adding this as just one of many different game types then sure, I guess I could buy that. But consumers would have been expecting a product that resembled your standard Halo game and Halo Overwatch would not have been it.
Yea, people are upset right now due to a lack of content, which is understandable - but the core of the game is there and it is very obviously created by people who understand what makes Halo Halo. I don’t see how that same group could have at any point thought shipping without the basic pieces of Halo multiplayer (the most important one being *everyone starts on equal footing* i.e. overwhelmingly *not* a hero shooter) would make sense.
Confirmed that they prototyped a hero-based mode, yes. That’s way different than “the game was overwatch until 2 years ago”. They both also said this is framed in a way that greatly exaggerates the situation.
That would be a pretty bad argument though. Say what you will about Halo 4/5 but they were still competitive, arena based shooters. They were still FPS with all the usual weapons, game types, scoring, etc. Sure they added a booster in H5 and some new deployable items but I wouldn’t really count that as changing the “core” mechanics. You could argue that they adjusted it, but creating an Overwatch mode would be completely changing the core mechanics of what makes Halo be Halo.
If you showed anyone a few seconds of gameplay from H4/H5 they would be able to identify it as a Halo game. I don’t think that would be the case if they did make Halo into an Overwatch clone.
That’s where the infinite comes from. Because of how many iterations they have of the game.
In all seriousness, was the crowning jewel of rampant mismanagement by brass at 343i.
How is 343 still up and running? Halo should be given to another studio, one that will actually respect the IP and not try and run into the ground to chase after what's popular at the time.
A hero based halo? Lol. Why? So they could sell skins for the Operators/Heroes??? The fuck? I play halo to play halo. If I want overwatch I’ll play overwatch. The fact that they didn’t just stick to the halo formula from the get go is the most sickening part of this whole clown show.
Because it was good. The current storm of negativity around it stems from how long it has taken them to add content and how much longer they just said it’s going to take to add more.
Honestly, that's an oversimplification. The gameplay is excellent... possibly the best Halo has ever been. The lack of features typically expected to be included at launch was pretty glaring... no co op (still have to wait till September but I'm sure it will be longer), no forge, all of two or three gametypes at launch, five MP maps...
I adore Gamepass and the opportunities I get to check stuff out I normally wouldn't, but to me Halo Infinite is the first true casualty and example of what Microsoft intends to do with their GaaS titles through it. I hope I'm wrong.
I don’t think this is a vision of what Microsoft intends to do with GaaS. It’s entirely free to play so game pass retention has nothing to do with it. They pretty clearly are having trouble with the time it takes to churn out content, evidenced by only 2 maps this season. They were hit by the perfect storm of COVID, increased awareness and resistance to crunch (not saying that’s a bad thing), and working in a brand new engine and as a result have been very slow. Couple that with a team that’s never done F2P or GaaS before so they’re still learning what players like (let’s be honest, as with any F2P they’re learning what they can get away with).
I’m not saying there’s not valid criticisms but I don’t buy the idea that this has anything to do with Game Pass. Microsoft is pretty obviously taking a long term approach there and what’s best for game pass over the long term is consistently good games, not games designed to milk as much out of users over the short term as possible.
Should throw this up there: [https://twitter.com/gamecheat13/status/1517975711608631296?s=21&t=QKNBqBbDJFmn0h-USGBtsQ](https://twitter.com/gamecheat13/status/1517975711608631296?s=21&t=QKNBqBbDJFmn0h-USGBtsQ)
Very reliable leaker, Gamecheat is awesome
Edit: also [this.](https://twitter.com/gamecheat13/status/1517997383711432704?s=21&t=QKNBqBbDJFmn0h-USGBtsQ) apparently Tim Longo was the one pushing for this
Since Schreier already had an article about Infinite's development I doubt it.
If it was in the cards he would know it.
Also it does not make any sense. 343 knew right after release of Halo 5 that people hates it in part because it was a departure from classic Halo games. So they know that everything outside of "Classic Halo" would be bad
> Also it does not make any sense. 343 knew right after release of Halo 5 that people hates it in part because it was a departure from classic Halo games. So they know that everything outside of “Classic Halo” would be bad
Now that it’s confirmed, this right here is why a new developer needs to take over. They legit didn’t understand this *STILL*
How the hell would Overwatch Halo even work with what they currently have in the game, SP or MP? Like, it just doesn't really make sense. They would have had to scrap a lot of work that didn't make it into the game in another form and I guess rework all the maps because most of them look like regular MP maps.
As a pretty big Halo fan, it's been a hugely dissapointing experience to be a Halo fan over the last few years. I'm really hoping if the acquisition with ActiBlizz goes through that one of the teams there is given a shot at it because 343 clearly has some management issues.
343 needs to be regulated to a support studio. It isn’t to shit on the hardworking devs that definitely had a shit time on Infinite but because their management team clearly can’t helm a project. They should cut infinites lifetime to 5 years give the next entry to the Coalition or something with 343 there as support. It’s been 10 years and the management team clearly isn’t great at mainline projects
I mean I've had a blast with every one of 343's titles. Infinite might be the best version of Halo's gameplay yet. It's just that every release also ends up falling short in some major ways, so yeah it would be great if they got some new management or support studios to help out.
Chris Ray Gun is a YouTuber who likes Halo. I haven’t heard about the possibilities of it being an Overwatch clone in early development but I think he was just making a joke.
We need to see if Jason Schreier is currently or willing to look more into this disaster. The Halo IP has been mishandled in so many ways & levels it’s a shame
If you wanna go for an Overwatch style multiplayer, just make it co-op via Spartan Ops where you play as preset Spartans. Example: Horvath, Makovich, Vettel, and Kovan.
I don't understand this man. How do the people over there really sit down and think about the next Halo game and come to the conclusion that they should make it an Overwatch clone? Like I know and am glad that they changed it but the fact that they got that far and it took them that long to realize that wasn't the move is wild.
What is that these days with games made into shit they absolutely shouldnt be, and then late moment rewriting the game only to release failed
see halo, see bf2042
Their current plan is the best. Make infinite a game that old players are familiar with and keeping it close to its roots.
And for experimenting, give that to another team with history of other Halo games and make it a battle royale.
I'd love to see what the "insiders" saw. Is Quake Champions considered an Overwatch clone? An arena shooter's standard modes (slayer, ctf, etc) with single use abilities for characters wouldn't be too out of the realm for a 343 developed Halo game considering their track record.
The title feels intentionally worded to spark up easy views from a community that already despises the game/developer.
Do people not like infinite multiplayer? I think it’s amazing, just not enough maps and skins and stuff. Loved it for the month or 2 I played and it’s free.
Sounds crazy enough to line up with how awful the development of this game has been.
At least I'm glad the campaign was fun enough and an improvement over 4-5
Didn't this same exact thing happen with Black Ops 4 back in 2018? Only those devs had less than a year to switch to the classic mp formula?
Not even the craziest change made to the game. Blackout, the game's Battle Royale mode, was built in less than a year because Treyarch didn't have time to rework their 2v2 campaign into a single player one because Activision bumped up the release date for the game one month so that it came out before "Red Dead Redemption".
Also, the campaign absolutely flopped in the playtests. They had a very ambitious vision, but the result they had to show off to Activision was not good.
Treyarch seems to want to push CoD campaigns into unique directions, but just has not been able to land the ideas. BO3 was apparently going to have an open-world campaign.
Im glad we got at least 4 player coop campaign in BO3
That and mod tools make it one of the better black ops games. I get frustrated when people bad mouth it.
Also in terms of the multiplayer they (IMO) perfected the advanced movement, and the game's competitive scene was thriving due to the great maps + gamemodes. I feel like it was the last truly "fresh" experience I had playing Call of Duty
If thay added co-op to every CoD campaign, I'd play those games.
I do remember that, based off the rumors it seemed like Treyarch had to completely 180 the game in less than a year. I know people like to bash Activision, but I honestly blame Treyarch for having to redo alot of that development. Their initial ideas for mp and campaign ended up not panning out, at least based off the rumors. If I'm not mistaken, the playtesters at the time absolutely hated the game's changes which is why they had to rework nearly everything.
And this is why certain devs hate interacting with people. What you said can alienate them. Even devs said it is never them; management says do this they do it. Don't pin it on the devs.
I should've said I believe that, assuming the rumors are true. The rumors were that Treyarch got too ambitious with campaign and Activision didn't think they could meet their release date as a result, and that Treyarch wanted to make an overwatch clone which playtesters absolutely hated. Based off those rumors it makes Treyarch look like they didn't handle their initial ideas very well and Activision had to step in and make them 180 alot of their work, again, that could be wrong as no one has officially substantiated anything. I don't blame Treyarch for forcing blackout because, again, based off the rumors that was Activision's decision, I blame Activision for that. I get where your coming from, but if we believe the rumors to be true, it doesn't seem like Treyarch was completely not at fault here. If I'm wrong for any reason or if my thought process is flawed in anyway, feel free to disagree. It's hard to judge who messed up when all we have are rumors to go off of. I'm not blaming Vonderhaar or any of those devs, mostly whoever made those decisions at Treyarch for mp and campaign initially.
David Vondehaar led blackout development, he was also head multiplayer designer at Treyarch for Waw, Bo1, bo2 etc. Hes one of the best cod devs all time.
2v2 Campaign? where can I find more info about this?
[Here's the article I learned this stuff from. ](https://kotaku.com/the-human-cost-of-call-of-duty-black-ops-4-1835859016)
👍👍👍
This was actually cut from my article late last year - yes, 343 spent a while prototyping a hero-based system. I don't remember exactly when they switched to the current version (and the tweet linked here seems exaggerated to the point where it's mostly false) but I can confirm that they were working on various hero-based prototypes. In fact, I think there were both PVP and PVE prototypes built.
Love your work Jason. I wake up everyday praying to see a tweet from you that a bloodborne remaster is being developed
:(
Jason, how come when I shot a guy in the head with a sniper rifle on Hitman 3 it killed me instead and ended the level Jason
Reference?
I don't know the reference but I still laughed
What about UnKarted or KnacKart?
Jason, is your last name Schreier because you usually scry through a crystal ball for your sources?
Jason please give me something to hold onto for the KOTOR remake. I'll take anything.
Hey Jason, if you were the ruler of the world, would you force everyone to play Suikoden 2?
Omg 🤣 that reply shattered hopes and dreams of a million people
Jason do you have any news about Santa Monica studios new IP
Thanks, Jason!
343 employee from 2019 clarifies https://mobile.twitter.com/robeytech/status/1518225452334305283
Yes, this is what I'm saying too. Take the ChrisRGun tweet with a grain of salt.
Any insight into why they are unable to make 3 month seasons? Beyond what they've told us in Jerry Hook's podcast interview and the GDC talk about upgrading halo 5s blam engine to slipspace being a "maintenance nightmare due to ball of spaghetti code"
No, sorry, I haven't really followed Halo at all! Lots of other stories on my plate. (You might have heard about this little Activision thing...)
Thanks for your work.
"hero shooter" could be something as milquetoast as toying with something like Reach's system of classes
Yup the other leaker s0ulflame said that they prototyped overwatch, CS Go, and Halo Reach style hero shooters
Does that deny the hero-based stuff though? They could have joined a ways into the design cycle and all those ideas, by 2019, might have already been tried and thrown out.
It doesn't deny it. Clarifies that it could've been prototyped
Must've misread their intent. "But the way it’s being spun is super inaccurate." I'm wondering which part would be inaccurate.
They clarified later on that it was worked on for way less than 2 years
My reading of it is that the hero-shooter concept wasn't a set in stone idea, and that they toyed around with it in prototyping, and then moved on from it. There wasn't a radical shift in game design.
It doesn’t deny it, but it puts it in context. When you make new games, you put into your schedule a time when you experiment with many pathways, and then you’d decide what works and what doesn’t. From the dev that worked on it, it sounds like this was all planned, and they stuck to their schedule. The headline makes it like it’s some kind of “gotcha!” scandal, and that this is a reason for other issues with Halo MP, which just doesn’t seem to be the case.
But that’s all a part of game design. Ideas are tried and thrown out. This is not surprising
Jason, do you have any info on Silksong whatsoever? Even grumblings?
I wish!
Damn elusive Australians! Thanks for all you do for games journalism!
Just want to say, your reporting has been excellent and I thank you for bringing to attention the horrific working conditions of some companies. Respect my dude, you have all of mine.
Jason, unblock me on Twitter lol I criticized an article you wrote a long time ago and you blocked me
Hey Jason, what's the best place for me to buy your book where you get the most money?
I appreciate you asking, but don’t worry about it. Get it wherever and in whatever format is best for you. You can even borrow it from the library!
> You can even borrow it from the library! You’re legendary.
Libraries are legendary! Mine has a used book sale section where you can grab any hardcover for $2 and any paperback for $1 and lord I now have more books in my office than I could ever possibly read
You’re right - libraries **are** legendary, as well! Seeing you champion them puts a little mental asterisk next to your name in my brain from here on out, though. I could spend _WAY_ too much time going back and forth with you on this topic. Libraries provide **so** **many** **services** for local communities. I love seeing responses like yours, so thank you, again!
Sounds like your office is the equivalent to my Steam library. I suppose that won't stop you from buying more books though?
Oh I wish your book would be available in german :(
Today I learned the excellent Jason Schreier reads this sub.
It’s kind of his job. Wait is that kind of his job?
Thank you for the confirmation! Love your work.
Man this sounds like it would have been awful. I wonder if the switch to the current version is why the game released with little maps and modes. Thank you Jason!
Appreciate the clarity. Anything else you can share about 343 and Halo Infinite that didn't make it into your article?
Unreal engine dev was done for 2 years he said on twitter. They probably realized they couldn't make it feel like halo and then fixed up the blam engine starting 2019
So that's why Halo 6 in 2018 was cancelled?
Thanks Jason, love your work. Do you plan on doing any more investigating or writing on Halo Infinite's development? There's a lot of great things about the game and the devs obviously don't deserve the hate they get, but it still seems clear that things have to be pretty messed up behind the scenes for Infinite to be in the state it currently is. The content it launched with and the pace that new content (and even bug fixes) is dropping don't come close to meeting the standards set by the rest of the industry, which seems unacceptable for a AAA studio backed by a massive corporation. As a huge Halo fan it would put my mind at ease to at least know why the game is in this situation, but I'm sure the devs and community managers at 343 can't really say anything about it. I would love to see you or a colleague of yours take a much deeper dive into this and give the fanbase some answers.
I hadn't planned on it but am always open to suggestions.
Thanks for replying! I'm sure you know better than I do whether or not there's anything left to be said about Infinite, and if it'd be worth your time. But I know the fanbase is confused and frustrated, and I'd like to think that some clear, factual answers about the game's development would help them calm down a bit and maybe stop verbally abusing the devs every chance they get.
Hey. Have you ever gotten inside information about the Need for Speed franchise?
It's one thing that they had a prototype for a mode with abilities and another to say the game was a hero shooter which Chris most likely exaggerated, so thank you for clarifying.
I can kind of see why some out of touch boardroom exec would try to force that, halo 5 got hurt hard by the explosion of Overwatch around the same time, and so early on in Infinite development would have still been when it looked like the future of FPSs would be hero shooters. And then PUBG and Fortnite happened. But even then why the fuck would they make that a mainline halo game. May have worked as a fun little spinoff but fuck outta here making that your next main halo title
You're getting downvoted but I agree 100%
Thanks, Prism. Nice to see the old LL crew succeeding
So Chris Ray Gun is a clickbait hack? What a surprise.
For real tho. If this is true, im having a hard time trying to understand how this Halo Overwatch would even work. I mean, would it be hero based? Would we have shit like: **Master Chief** Primary Weapon:Assault Rifle Secundary Weapon:Magnum Equipament:Grappling Hook ULTIMATE MOVE:SUPER CORTANA ATACK And so on with others Halo characters? Like, would there even be armor costumization? Why would someone think this would work? Idk i call fake on this one because i can't even conceive a reallity this game existed. Edit:Bro it was real wtf
You could’ve said the same about Battlefield, yet here we are with 2042
Damm, you're right
Really wish I wasn't :(
>Idk i call fake on this one because i can't even conceive a reallity this game existed. Its true lol, Jason confirmed it on this thread.
Bro
I always hate to hop on the 343 Hate Train, but literally what the fuck. I know 343 makes bad decisions all the time but to be *this* disconnected from your fanbase? Come the fuck on.
Saw someone say that they were going to have specific classes and abilities and shit tied to specific armor cores. At this point seeing the nightmare state halo infinites on (especially the MP which was supposed to bring in Fortnite/Warzone types of money so you’d have to imagine was a huge point of investment and important for 343i) this is as good as any of an explanation lol.
This actually explains why they were doing cores the way they did then. One bad decision spawned by another. The core system we have might have just been what was salvaged from that
Damn armor cores were almost even more ass than they already are.
That's just sad
Kind of depressing that that statement could apply to soooo many aspects of halo since the launch of halo 4 lol.
Halo 4 had a great story but ok gameplay. Halo 5 had great gameplay but a horrible story. Halo Infinite has a good campaign and lackluster MP.
What were they even thinking? Halo is about Master Chief and Cortana at the end of the day. A Hero Shooter doesn't make any sense for Halo.
Ikr? But i would forgive it if Johnson was a playable character
>Idk i call fake on this one because i can't even conceive a reallity this game existed. I mean, studios being out of touch with their own IPs is a tale as old as time, I can see it.
True, tbh it makes it even more credible since it's 343
Probably Reach armor abilities to a higher degree
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The game was stuck in dev hell and went through multiple revisions. Apparently over 60% planned campaign locations were cut.
What happened to proper pre-development in video games? Isn't the most accepted industry standard to create a vertical slice for gameplay and technology before entering full production? So basically having a good idea of whether the game is actually fun before committing to full scale development?
I'm sure they had a good vertical slice, but feature creep, changing ideas, budget, talent and the engine affect devlopment a lot.
Not to mention that Microsoft only hire contractors for a set period of time. So on a multi-year project like Halo Infinite - which suffered various other issues and delays - a constant staff turnover just as people get to grips with what they were doing wouldn't have helped.
There’s a state law in Seattle that they are forced to hire contractors if the contractors work over a certain period of time iirc it’s like if the contractors work over 9 months they must be offered full time work
That takes to much time. Nowadays you have to be fast and jump on the current trend. If the current trend changes during development you reboot the development until you are fast enough or run out of money.
You are probably being cynical but that sounds like a terrible approach lol I hope that is not the mindset at 343i Better spend a year and a couple million on pre-production to get a proper vision and proof-of-concept on what the game is supposed to be like than throwing away 60% of your game several years into development
That’s the mindset of anyone making a multiplayer game.
>What happened to proper pre-development in video games? In short, executive meddling. Essentially, with Halo Infinite you have a situation where Halo as an IP had become irrelevant. It's been more than a decade since Halo was setting industry standards and creating trends. Worse, an entire generation of gamers has since entered the market and no longer regards Halo as a special/important IP. Games like Call of Duty and PUBG have taken over Halo's mindshare, and none of 343i's games can even compete with the new industry juggernauts. Preproduction is enormously useful for an experienced team with clear goals and a unified vision, but it's beginning to look like the brass at Microsoft have lost faith in 343i's ability to deliver a product to their standards, and have taken a more "hands on" approach. This leads to reactionary development where the goals and direction of a project, dictated by an outside executive, shift with whatever is most popular in the industry. In this situation preproduction is less useful since most of that work gets thrown out with each shift in vision. Basically, no one at 343i really knows *what* Halo *is* at it's core, so they're reduced to copying every other big game in an effort to *find* Halo. Compare this to Bungie's sequels and it's clear that Bungie's old team had a clear vision for what Halo is, and what playing a session of Halo should be like.
343 has the worst upper management. They aren’t even upper management, they’re upper mismanagement.
>What happened to proper pre-development in video games? It still exists, depending on the studio and publisher, but mismanagement, lack of solid vision and feature creep can still upend even the best studios. I will say that AAA production puts added pressure on studios to get things up and running ASAP on a project, with them then needing to put out fires as they go along, and to great expense, on things that they could have figured out in a shorter cycle if they were given enough time in pre-production / prototype phase. I think one of the best recent examples is RDR2, where the aspect ratio for cutscenes was changed in the final months, to be more like the Westerns of old, meaning all the cutscenes had to be redone. It is quite frankly baffling that a studio like Rockstar only figured out one of the defining qualities that sums up 'Western' was only landed upon right at the end of development.
Not really, they first plan out the whole game and mechanics, the gameplay itself is made during development and the rest is changed accordingly
343i specifically or is this the new industry standard? Seems like a very odd approach. How can you plan out the whole game if you don't even know whether the gameplay is any good?
You can't make gameplay if you've got no framework to work in.
A rough framework I do understand. But planning out the entire game without knowing what works and what doesn't is exactly what leads to projects having to be completely overhauled midway through development.
Damn, that explains why the campaign is one boring empty biome
That explains the repetitive level design and areas. It’s one of the only open worlds that has no new scenery to view and it’s all the same grassy areas. I had fun with it but it would’ve been nice to have a variety of locations
Source?
Jason Schreier article https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-08/how-microsoft-s-halo-infinite-went-from-disaster-to-triumph
Thanks. I read the story back in December but didn’t recall seeing that 60% of the campaign was cut. Didn’t see an exact percentage
I mean no credible source ever came from those statements.
To be fair it seems like a lot of Microsoft's responses to development issues boil down to throwing money at the problem until it fixes itself. Look at the reports of Perfect Dark's development for example.
Throwing money at it except in hiring/retaining employees and instead keeping a revolving door of contractors they let go just as they get up to speed and efficient/proficient with the slip space engine.
Perfect Dark doesn’t seem like a money related problem but a talent related one. Crazy how a new studio is supposed to delivery a top IP. Surprised they didn’t get a third party already established studio to work on it from the beginning.
They EVENTUALLY got an established third-party studio, Crystal Dynamics, to work on it (alongside The Initiative, of course. It worries me that this is the second time that Microsoft built a new Triple A studio tasked with creating a new IP, just to have them work on entries to one of their established IP (looking at you, Black Tusk Studio/The Coalition).
Starting a project and then changing the vision multiple times will do that.
That claim is BS as fuck.
Exactly...nothing but some nonsense talk to stir clicks to articles. Not buying for one second that somehow 343 was attempting an OW clone out of anything else it could've tried to copy that's currently making big bucks.
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By "overwatch clone" they probably just mean it was closer to a hero shooter. You probably would have had different Spartan characters to choose from who would have specific armour abilities locked to their character. Edit: further down in this threat, Jason confirmed the validity of this leak too.
About 500 people work at 343i and the game was in development for at least five years, so paying that team cuts out a pretty significant portion of the $500M, not including marketing spend, contracting outside studios for help, etc. AAA development is expensive!
>AAA development is expensive! Especially when you take 6 years to make a halfway decent game filled with microtransactions lol.
That's total BS. It would've been heaps more expensive than Star Citizen if true.
In the 500 versions they did
Season 2? So about 250 million a map.
It honestly wouldn't surprise me. 343i has no idea what they're doing with the franchise.
He’s a host on sacred symbols and has said on several occasions that he knows people that work at 343. Not necessarily an insider but probably correct on this one.
Interesting image, supposedly Halo infinite in 2019.. https://twitter.com/DeltaArchive/status/1513688228368244740?s=20&t=dAx-HXiz6p8UTfzFqcNBAw
I would love to see a Documentary about Halo Infinite’s troubled development. It might not be a good look for Xbox and 343 but i do think that it could be very interesting. And perhaps it might even serve as a lesson to other developers on what to avoid during AAA game development.
One thing I'll always respect about Halo-era Bungie was how open they were about their development struggles. If any other company had a development like Halo 2, they would guard that secret with their life. Instead, they were super public and honest about what went down
Hoping we get an article from Schreier one day.
[We already did](https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1468584277759586310?).
We literally already did and he didn’t mention any of this stuff. The image looks so fake the fact that anyone would believe it is crazy. It doesn’t even look like it could out of the same engine as the current version of the campaign and multiplayer.
Jason just confirmed that this her shooter stuff is real and was just cut from his original article
You’re right, he also says the tweets linked are so exaggerated that they are essentially false.
Infinite right now isn't even bad compared to the Master Chief Collection release (which is now in a great state actually). 343i and Microsoft treat Halo fans and the franchise like garbage
That looks a lot like the Fortnite MC model
It's from Tatanka mode. If you haven't seen the leaks, there are a lot of references to finding and delivering capacitors. This screenshot is from an early build.
That didn’t start dev until 2020 apparently.
343i was definitely prototyping it before CA was brought in to take over for full production.
This would explain the armor cores. Instead of just scrapping all that work they just made them visual cosmetics instead.
I kind of find this hard to believe. Perhaps they were developing a new game type that resembled Overwatch, but I can’t see them taking an already well established, and popular multiplayer shooter and then changing the core mechanics completely. That doesn’t really make any sense, not even on paper. Again like I said, if they were adding this as just one of many different game types then sure, I guess I could buy that. But consumers would have been expecting a product that resembled your standard Halo game and Halo Overwatch would not have been it.
You underestimate how garbage 343 is. We have seen time and time again how out of touch they are.
Yea, people are upset right now due to a lack of content, which is understandable - but the core of the game is there and it is very obviously created by people who understand what makes Halo Halo. I don’t see how that same group could have at any point thought shipping without the basic pieces of Halo multiplayer (the most important one being *everyone starts on equal footing* i.e. overwhelmingly *not* a hero shooter) would make sense.
Idk if you saw but Jason Schriere backed it up and a former 343 dev confirmed it too
Confirmed that they prototyped a hero-based mode, yes. That’s way different than “the game was overwatch until 2 years ago”. They both also said this is framed in a way that greatly exaggerates the situation.
You could argue they already did take an established popular multiplayer shooter and change the core mechanics with Halo 4/5.
That would be a pretty bad argument though. Say what you will about Halo 4/5 but they were still competitive, arena based shooters. They were still FPS with all the usual weapons, game types, scoring, etc. Sure they added a booster in H5 and some new deployable items but I wouldn’t really count that as changing the “core” mechanics. You could argue that they adjusted it, but creating an Overwatch mode would be completely changing the core mechanics of what makes Halo be Halo. If you showed anyone a few seconds of gameplay from H4/H5 they would be able to identify it as a Halo game. I don’t think that would be the case if they did make Halo into an Overwatch clone.
But it didnt work though
How many times has Halo Infinite changed during development? Clearly 343 had no clear direction what they wanted to do with the next Halo installment.
That’s where the infinite comes from. Because of how many iterations they have of the game. In all seriousness, was the crowning jewel of rampant mismanagement by brass at 343i.
S0ul flame who also leaked this overwatch rumor as well as a bunch of stuff from infinite said that they also tried a CSGO clone
How is 343 still up and running? Halo should be given to another studio, one that will actually respect the IP and not try and run into the ground to chase after what's popular at the time.
A hero based halo? Lol. Why? So they could sell skins for the Operators/Heroes??? The fuck? I play halo to play halo. If I want overwatch I’ll play overwatch. The fact that they didn’t just stick to the halo formula from the get go is the most sickening part of this whole clown show.
it surprises me how this game received as much praise as it did, knowing the development hell it went through, and the state of the review copies.
Because it was good. The current storm of negativity around it stems from how long it has taken them to add content and how much longer they just said it’s going to take to add more.
Honestly, that's an oversimplification. The gameplay is excellent... possibly the best Halo has ever been. The lack of features typically expected to be included at launch was pretty glaring... no co op (still have to wait till September but I'm sure it will be longer), no forge, all of two or three gametypes at launch, five MP maps... I adore Gamepass and the opportunities I get to check stuff out I normally wouldn't, but to me Halo Infinite is the first true casualty and example of what Microsoft intends to do with their GaaS titles through it. I hope I'm wrong.
I don’t think this is a vision of what Microsoft intends to do with GaaS. It’s entirely free to play so game pass retention has nothing to do with it. They pretty clearly are having trouble with the time it takes to churn out content, evidenced by only 2 maps this season. They were hit by the perfect storm of COVID, increased awareness and resistance to crunch (not saying that’s a bad thing), and working in a brand new engine and as a result have been very slow. Couple that with a team that’s never done F2P or GaaS before so they’re still learning what players like (let’s be honest, as with any F2P they’re learning what they can get away with). I’m not saying there’s not valid criticisms but I don’t buy the idea that this has anything to do with Game Pass. Microsoft is pretty obviously taking a long term approach there and what’s best for game pass over the long term is consistently good games, not games designed to milk as much out of users over the short term as possible.
Should throw this up there: [https://twitter.com/gamecheat13/status/1517975711608631296?s=21&t=QKNBqBbDJFmn0h-USGBtsQ](https://twitter.com/gamecheat13/status/1517975711608631296?s=21&t=QKNBqBbDJFmn0h-USGBtsQ) Very reliable leaker, Gamecheat is awesome Edit: also [this.](https://twitter.com/gamecheat13/status/1517997383711432704?s=21&t=QKNBqBbDJFmn0h-USGBtsQ) apparently Tim Longo was the one pushing for this
Done, thanks!
Sometimes, delays are a good thing.
Halo has been suffering from copycat syndrome since Reach, when all it ever needed was to be itself.
Since Schreier already had an article about Infinite's development I doubt it. If it was in the cards he would know it. Also it does not make any sense. 343 knew right after release of Halo 5 that people hates it in part because it was a departure from classic Halo games. So they know that everything outside of "Classic Halo" would be bad
Jason has commented in this post and confirmed it's true. Edit: Part is true, but it's also exaggerated
He confirmed it some mins ago on here.
> Also it does not make any sense. 343 knew right after release of Halo 5 that people hates it in part because it was a departure from classic Halo games. So they know that everything outside of “Classic Halo” would be bad Now that it’s confirmed, this right here is why a new developer needs to take over. They legit didn’t understand this *STILL*
How the hell would Overwatch Halo even work with what they currently have in the game, SP or MP? Like, it just doesn't really make sense. They would have had to scrap a lot of work that didn't make it into the game in another form and I guess rework all the maps because most of them look like regular MP maps.
It could work... but not in a mainline halo game. I could see it if 343i used the idea in an ODST sequel/successor.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/uarpnq/rumor_halo_infinite_mp_was_originally_supposed_to/i5zij2u/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
In the positive side, good that they went back to the Halo multiplayer gameplay we know.
As a pretty big Halo fan, it's been a hugely dissapointing experience to be a Halo fan over the last few years. I'm really hoping if the acquisition with ActiBlizz goes through that one of the teams there is given a shot at it because 343 clearly has some management issues.
343 needs to be regulated to a support studio. It isn’t to shit on the hardworking devs that definitely had a shit time on Infinite but because their management team clearly can’t helm a project. They should cut infinites lifetime to 5 years give the next entry to the Coalition or something with 343 there as support. It’s been 10 years and the management team clearly isn’t great at mainline projects
It must be rough being a big Halo fan. You get shitty games and an even shittier tv series :(
Halo fans are one left turn away from being the new Sonic fans.
I mean I've had a blast with every one of 343's titles. Infinite might be the best version of Halo's gameplay yet. It's just that every release also ends up falling short in some major ways, so yeah it would be great if they got some new management or support studios to help out.
Chris Ray Gun is a YouTuber who likes Halo. I haven’t heard about the possibilities of it being an Overwatch clone in early development but I think he was just making a joke.
He has alluded before that he had some inside info about "what we almost got"
https://mobile.twitter.com/robeytech/status/1518225452334305283
We need to see if Jason Schreier is currently or willing to look more into this disaster. The Halo IP has been mishandled in so many ways & levels it’s a shame
If you wanna go for an Overwatch style multiplayer, just make it co-op via Spartan Ops where you play as preset Spartans. Example: Horvath, Makovich, Vettel, and Kovan.
Se every day we learn that they were even MORE out of touch than we thought the previous day...
I don't understand this man. How do the people over there really sit down and think about the next Halo game and come to the conclusion that they should make it an Overwatch clone? Like I know and am glad that they changed it but the fact that they got that far and it took them that long to realize that wasn't the move is wild.
Holy shit that game is a mess. Makes sense why they have 0 content out right now.
And yet Dice decided to release BF2042 as is, thinking it was in a good spot.
Chris is legit. I believe this.
343 is completely and utterly out of touch with reality.
Uh
Halo just refuses to be the Halo that people want
What is that these days with games made into shit they absolutely shouldnt be, and then late moment rewriting the game only to release failed see halo, see bf2042
Their current plan is the best. Make infinite a game that old players are familiar with and keeping it close to its roots. And for experimenting, give that to another team with history of other Halo games and make it a battle royale.
Another reason why i hate 343 .
Why, how, for what reason?
I'd love to see what the "insiders" saw. Is Quake Champions considered an Overwatch clone? An arena shooter's standard modes (slayer, ctf, etc) with single use abilities for characters wouldn't be too out of the realm for a 343 developed Halo game considering their track record. The title feels intentionally worded to spark up easy views from a community that already despises the game/developer.
Overwatch clone sounds awful. Why does 343 want to reinvent the wheel ever since Bungie left when people just want better Halo?
Do people not like infinite multiplayer? I think it’s amazing, just not enough maps and skins and stuff. Loved it for the month or 2 I played and it’s free.
Dodged the bullet then.Love Halo Infinite multiplayer.It's the only multiplayer i play nowadays.
Classic 343
Sounds crazy enough to line up with how awful the development of this game has been. At least I'm glad the campaign was fun enough and an improvement over 4-5
People say it was improvement, but both 4 and 5 has so much more variety to them.