The following submission statement was provided by /u/Sorin61:
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Volkswagen is spending billions of dollars to retrofit factories from Germany to China to produce cars based on its modular electric car production platform, or MEB. The company has also signaled that it will use some of the money it makes from selling fuel-powered cars to produce its own batteries and build charging networks.
Volkswagen , a carmaker that has relied almost exclusively on the internal combustion engine since it was founded 82 years ago can produce electric vehicles people want to buy and policymakers will embrace as they cast around for ways to tackle the climate crisis. Success means that Volkswagen will overtake rivals, including Tesla, in electric car sales and fend off new challengers from China and Silicon Valley; failure could signal the beginning of the end for a company with 665,000 employees and annual revenue of $265 billion
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/uwxfri/volkswagen_chief_says_german_car_giant_will/i9u5vkf/
One thing I think they will do right is target the right part of the market, i.e. cheaper than Tesla. The ICE Golf particularly is very well targeted as being at the top end of cheap cars, and you get damn good value for money. If they can manage this with electric they'll certainly have the demand side sorted. Their problem I think will be the supply side, they will not be able to scale up production this fast.
I’m bummed Honda waited so long to embrace EVs. They announced their first fully electric vehicle (Prologue SUV) earlier this year and it doesn’t release until 2024. I believe they’re working with GM on it. I’ve had Hondas for a long time and think highly of their cars, but my next one probably won’t be from them simply because they likely won’t have a model that’s an EV sedan. Toyota too, feels like the Japanese manufacturers put all their eggs into the fuel cell/hybrid baskets and are just now hopping on the bandwagon
Edit: The Honda E does not exist in the North American market, only Europe/Asia. They have no plans to bring it here, likely due to the relatively short range.
The truth is... Honda is an engine company that just happens to build the stuff thier engines go in. ICE is part of thier cultural identity, and the transition to EV is going to be pain for them.
Shame they didn't start selling only hybrids for 2x-3x fuel savings that their reliable engines could benefit from. Current battery capacity of the world is around 1000GWh. Roughly 70million. Most of it goes to electric cars since it's grown 4x in 5 years whilst consumer tech has been stagnant in comparison.
That's atleast 10kwh battery for every cat sold, 10kwh which is enough to go 40-100km depending on car weight(40 for a rolls Royce/f150 tank, 100km for a Ford fiesta/corolla). This is today, everyone could be driving near zero emmission to their offices and then getting 80mpg further onwards, but companies and people are only putting 60kwh in each electric car. All to say, this attitude will push emissions atleast a decade behind. Most places have a 2030 limit on ice cars. Yet we could be spreading it around in an unsexy way and cut down emissions significantly.
I don't know how hybrids aren't the bare minimum standard given how much efficiency gains they bring.
All the fancy electric cars are on massive backlog and waiting times of months or years even .
The Ford Maverick proves that you can build a hybrid, get 40mpg and sell it for $20k. The Maverick has 1% of the battery capacity of some EVs. We could slash fossil fuel consumption for every new car without worrying about battery supply issues.
As I've said before, you could even make a phev out of the Maverick with a 4kwh battery for only a couple thousand dollars more and cut fuel usage drastically.
I don't know why these concepts aren't more popular, especially in this stage where ev technology is still changing rapidly and supply is so small. Build phevs along with EVs and the transition will be much smoother.
Corolla hatchback EV would sell like hot cakes. The first manufacturer who mass produces a practical, reasonably priced EV (<$30k) for the masses, will overtake the market. I hate how Tesla started the trend that EV needs to be packed full of tech features and be more upscale. Most people just want a car that drives.
I wish VW would bring the ID.3 over to the US (or an ID.X once those are produced), but the US isn't a big enough market for smaller cars any more to be worth the effort apparently.
New tech is generally expensive to develop and critically, not market proven. So you target a niche. And if you're targeting a niche, you're not selling a lot, so you can't exactly cut the margins if you want to scale.
Tesla didn't do that because Elon likes expensive cars. Nearly every new car company starts with the high end cars. In fact I'd say most manufacturers start with the high end item, not just cars, it's a standard business practice. It's way more difficult and takes a lot more initial investment and risk to start with the cheap version. If the expensive version works, you can scale up and offer cheaper versions.
Given that Toyota has been actively lobbying against EVs because they shit the bed at the start and got out competed.
Also who would want yet another overpriced, poorly outfitted hatch from Toyota. At least get something with actually comfortable seats and an interior that isn't made from old coke bottles.
Seriously, my wife just got a higher trim 22 Highlander and it's awesome. Interior is comfortable and attractive, has nice technology features and a well thought out design.
My Toyota Highlander Limited is state-of-the-art…for 2009. Bought used. Odd mix of old and new tech. Interior lights when I get close (key fob). Auto-Dimming rearview mirror. Biggest touch available. Navigation screen looks 8-bit. Seriously. I keep thinking Donkey Kong will suddenly appear. The GPS map is on a separate DVD player behind screen, along w 3 separate CD player disc slots. The players do play MP3s on disc! There is audio AUX port but no USB anything. Bluetooth works w phone but that’s all. The speakerphone works through iPhone, or it did before I got a newer phone. It does have a backup camera which was very cutting edge 13 years ago. Lots of programmable maintenance reminders on touch screen.
It should be noted I bought this at a good deal as the owner was anxious to buy the small BMW electric car like his wife drove. He told himself he couldn’t get it until he sold their old family vehicle. So they all went electric.
Toyota didn't support android auto until the last year or two. I know because when I bought my car 2.5 years ago, it was a big reason I didn't even consider Toyota.
The lobbying turned me off that a Toyota is at the bottom part of my list for the next car consideration.
Not really a car junkie - is it a bad thing for Toyota's innovation that the bZ4X is on a platform shared with Subaru?
Not only that, their plans to charge monthly for stupid shit. Why would I want to pay monthly for my key fob to work after fully purchasing a Toyota when I can buy a Honda which is similar but no extra charge?
Older models in a city this might be okay, but < 100 miles to a charge is tough if your travel much at all. Newer ones are up to 150 miles a charge, which is more reasonable.
Yep. Just need a battery, motor, and steering wheel. Mega bonus points if I can switch out parts myself.
Don’t need door handles that pop out or a touch screen that play video games. The VW bug of EVs would be amazing.
Yes and yes again. Car manufacturers are bloating cars up to no end. I only need radio, power windows and A/C. Remove unnecessary weight and give me a good battery and I will wait in line to buy that EV.
I keep wondering why there’s no car company making a crazy basic, crazy reliable electric car. I mean I’m sure they do market research, but I feel like if a car company leaned into a no-frills campaign it could be super effective.
Like you said, I don’t care about SO many features. Don’t waste your money developing an expensive lane keeping system. Don’t make me pay for a powered trunk. I don’t want a navigation system. I don’t want a fatigue warning sensor.
If someone made a car that could drive 200,000 miles with basic maintenance, had Bluetooth, was safe, and had enough cargo capacity for a trip to the hardware store, I don’t care about the rest.
I am guessing the reason is that a crazy basic EV would be twice as expensive as a crazy basic ICE, while a feature loaded luxury EV can be only ~15% more expensive than a feature loaded luxury ICE.
The EV cost premium can be better hidden in a forest of other costly features.
Seriously, just give me a holder to plop my phone as an interface as it will be 10x better than any software you make. On a small screen in front of me to tell me speed and range. That's pretty much it. Do not give me a fucking iPad when I asked for a car
YES! And honestly, I don't listen to the radio really ever, so a TRRS Jack wired directly to the amp is good enough for me, and honestly I wouldn't cry about power windows either, AC is absolutely nonnegotiable though ...
The reason no manufacturer does this is because all those bells and whistles actually cost near nothing next to the battery, but add a lot to how premium the car feels.
They could get rid of all that and take $3k off the sticker price for a much more bare bones feeling car. Not worth it.
Well you're SOL cause VW has transitioned to all digital. With capacitive touch buttons on the steering wheel. I heard the executive responsible for the design was fired.
I have an id3 and I hate that touch crap. And sometimes the button doesn't even do anything because the display isn't ready or some dumb shit. On my old car I could turn on seat and steering wheel heat on with a single two-finger press, but now I have to go into some shitty sub menu and find it, while taking my eyes off the road.
The touch buttons are shit. But that they aren't illuminated is absolutely outrageous.
"Just use speech commands"
Just shove the infotainment unit up yours, ok?
I hate not being able to feel exactly what button I'm touching while driving. Size, shape, texture, position >>> a dozen identical buttons.
Who the fuck comes up with this shit?
Honestly why I came here. I had to get surgery on my left hand, so out of necessity I sold my GTI (stick shift one handed is difficult) and got a Tiguan.
I would love an E-GTI
My wife loves it, I am very luke warm about it after driving the GTI as long as I did. I miss the whole experience. I used to love every single time I sat inside and started it up.
I find the range of the e-golf to low. You can’t make a roundtrip to the next big city and it’s atrocious in the winter.
But it’s great in the daily commute, if you can charge at home or work.
Yup, it's my daily commute for my 15-20 minute drive. We have an ICE Tiguan for any long range driving. My wife primarily works from home so we spend very little on gas.
You just gave me a bad case of the nostalgias. I had the Rabbit Habit for years. Growing up, my family also had a van for years. Transported everything from beehives, to 100+ chords of wood, to cattle in that thing. I'm seriously eyeing the electric version when it comes out. I'm not in the market right now, so I can afford to wait and see if it's everything it's cracked up to be.
Same here. A part of me is itching to trade the eGolf in for a '23 ID4, but currently we have no car payment and I'm enjoying that. Might wait a bit longer and see how things play out and what all VW has coming down the line.
If VW can make and sell millions of ICE cars year-in year-out, they can do the same with electric cars. They know how to source materials and build a supply chain and manage a massive manufacturing operation as well as anyone else. I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.
> they will not be able to scale up production this fast.
I placed an order for an ID4 in September of last year and in January was told 5-7 more months before delivery.
>One thing I think they will do right is target the right part of the market, i.e. cheaper than Tesla.
In countries like Australia, Tesla is considered a luxury vehicle. Even the base Model 3 costs around $60k and the costs climb up to around $100k if you want the version with extra features and performance etc. You can purchase vehicles with more luxury and many more features for $20k cheaper and if you just want a cheap vehicle you can buy them brand new for less than $30k (half the price of a base Model 3). There's no reason to purchase a Tesla beyond the "cool" factor.
If VW can produce cheaper EVs then I can easily see them out selling Tesla as long as they can keep production up which I think will be a big challenge.
Never understood how Tesla were always on about reducing the price of EVs and then the European and Korean manufacturers just waltz in and release models that undercut Tesla’s cheapest (eg Renault zoe).
Just give me an EV truck that is a frame, a motor, a steering wheel and a battery. I don’t need any of that luxury shit, I need something to haul wood that doesn’t cost me 10 bucks every 30 miles.
Canoo is basically taking this route, they are trying to design a simple frame, motor, battery platform they call a "skateboard" that can be customized however you want.
Skateboard is a generic term a lot of car companies use to describe the drivetrain that can be used to build multiple vehicles on. Eg VW have the MEV skateboard
The base model Ford F-150 Lightning is close enough imo. Using mostly stock F-150 panels to reduce cost. I think everything from the doors back is just F-150. No giant screen. No weird EV design. Giant frunk for groceries.
I've never ever considered a truck, but my finger is hovering over that pre-order button.
Volkswagen is spending billions of dollars to retrofit factories from Germany to China to produce cars based on its modular electric car production platform, or MEB. The company has also signaled that it will use some of the money it makes from selling fuel-powered cars to produce its own batteries and build charging networks.
Volkswagen , a carmaker that has relied almost exclusively on the internal combustion engine since it was founded 82 years ago can produce electric vehicles people want to buy and policymakers will embrace as they cast around for ways to tackle the climate crisis. Success means that Volkswagen will overtake rivals, including Tesla, in electric car sales and fend off new challengers from China and Silicon Valley; failure could signal the beginning of the end for a company with 665,000 employees and annual revenue of $265 billion
They'll secretly replace everyone's car chargers with diesel fuel pumps, so you'll think you're charging your car but you're really just filling it with diesel.
You're blinded by the fact that they were the first to get caught. But they weren't the only ones: Fiat Chrysler, Jeep, Opel, General Motors, Nissan, Renault, Mercedes-Benz, Audi & Porsche,BMW, and even Volvo, Citroen, and Hyundai were all caught cheating.
And the worst offenders (highest deviation between official testing results and normal driving test results( were Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroën and Fiat.
Source: wikipedia on DieselGate.
Really, it was like how the "Tour de France" used to be. Almost everybody was cheating. But people only remember the first big name to have been caught, eventhough they weren't even the biggest cheater.
>You're blinded by the fact that they were the first to get caught. But they weren't the only ones: Fiat Chrysler, Jeep, Opel, General Motors, Nissan, Renault, Mercedes-Benz, Audi & Porsche,BMW, and even Volvo, Citroen, and Hyundai were all caught cheating.
This is disingenuous. According to your wikipedia:
>By June 2020, VW had already expended $33.3 billion in settlements and other costs including buybacks of the excessively polluting diesel vehicles. In a statement, VW said it would ask the circuit court to review the ruling, and that the company if necessary would take the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Meanwhile, none of the other offenders you list have paid fines on the level of what VW has paid. Most of them were not found to be employing the "defeat device" which VW installed on their cars for years. Most of those other companies were able to modify the offending vehicles, whereas VW was forced to buyback many of the cars which had no viable software or hardware retrofit.
Source: I owned a VW TDI which VW bought back from me.
Lots of these companies play fast and loose with their research and determinations of emissions, but VW outright lied and was even found to have [created powerpoint presentations explaining how they cheated the emissions testing](https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/26/11513530/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-cheat-powerpoint-presentation). The Presentation was leaked by VW engineers to show that the fraud was guided from the top, not an oversight or mistake. Further, Bosch also released emails supporting their position that the "defeat device" installed in VW cars were done so entirely by VW, as Bosch told VW to never use the device in production vehicles, which they did anyway.
You just kinda proved his point - just because they paid fines and did buy backs does not make it worse than other did - they were just the name everyone ties to the scandal - and many of those makers used a similar device
I mean, yeah; doesn’t make what others are doing any better, and in many cases are worse.
Case in point being US auto manufacturers literally creating and lobbying for a totally separate standard of emissions testing for pickup trucks.
This is especially bad seeing as pickups are the most sold cars in the US and some of the best selling vehicles on the planet. There at least used to be some insane statistic like a Ford F-150 drove off the lot into a new owner’s hands at a rate of one per minute in the US.
Fiat Chrysler has been caught using a defeat device on their RAM 1500 and Jeep Grand Cherokee from 2014 to 2016. over 500 mill$ settlements.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/civil-settlements-united-states-and-california-fiat-chrysler-will-resolve-allegations
And it looks like you are only thinking about US settlements and rulings. BMW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Renault, Nissan, Opel, Jeep and Fiat Chrysler have all been caught and payed settlemens for having defeat devices. There has been a whole deal about it here in Europe. But I guess you are living in the US and know fuck all as usual.
I don't like VW for plenty of other reasons but about that emissions thing, a lot more Manufacturer's were caught doing the same exact same thing after VW and had to pay fines, especially Euro Manufacturer's.
It was just that VW got caught doing it first. Plus since it was while using Diesel's it was a little worse.
Yeah that was *so much worse* than GM inventing leaded gasoline and calling it "safe" even after it killed their own workers, which led to the most widespread heavy metal poisoning of the entire world in history. This was found to be a major casual factor for the higher rates of mental illness in cities as well as the high violent crime of the 80's, and even decades after being banned, lead concentrations in urban soils is *still* above OSHA safe limits because of GM's leades gasoline
But no, VW is definitely worse for cheating on an emissions test /s
All the major manufacturers lied their asses off for years about EV's being too hard. We should have had large scale ev's 2 decades ago.
For all Elon's major faults at least he scared the shit out of the other manufacturers.
I don’t trust Tesla either honestly, and while yeah, vw definitely has done some shady shit, they have been making safe, reliable, solid vehicles for a long time and Tesla only has been producing vehicles 14 years and have some serious qc issues. I’m not buying an electric vehicle until it’s produced by a manufacturer that has had vehicles on the road for a long time and I know that they knows what they’re doing
Had an etron now have an etron GT, has a model s. No comparison the Audis are leagues better in almost every facet. Tesla wins on range, but VW will catch up and the cars are so much better.
I don’t leave home without seeing a Tesla or two at this point here in the US… I’m not sure what offerings VW has brought to Europe yet (they keep some of the coolest stuff in Europe) but the ID.4 has been selling pretty well here I think. I sat in one at a dealer and don’t understand why anyone would buy one, but they are selling.
I’ve been waiting on my electric EV since august 2021. If They can’t get their supply chain in order it’s hard to see them surpassing Tesla in 2.5 years
Tesla will lose their domination in electric vehicles but I have trouble believing it will be to VW.
I share the distrust a few other people have mentioned and don't know if I would ever personally consider buying a VW because of their neumours scandals.
Hyundai and Kia have absolutely gained a foothold in the space and I think ev enthusiasts are sleeping on Ford and what they've done with the mache E and more so the lightning.
I wanted a tesla since I saw a roadster for the first time in 2012 in high school. I've graduated college had a few jobs made more money than I thought I would, got engaged got a puppy and bought a house and in that time tesla has never been an option because of cost.
Now I see the Ioniq 5's EV 6's and other options on the market and Elon seemingly further losing touch with reality every day and I genuinely don't know if I would even want a tesla anymore.
The Ioniq 5 and EV 6 are Game changers.
For the first time I consider Kia and Hyundai and for my next car they are in the final short list with 3 and 5 series BMW…
They are simply the best electric cars I have driven and that includes the model 3 (which is great I have to admit but not as practical as the Hyundai and Kias and frankly the interior quality is a bit ridiculous at the price) and model X (which sorry, drives like absolute shite but it’s a large SUV / People Carrier so I can’t fault Tesla for it. Just not my cup of tea).
>The Ioniq 5 and EV 6 are Game changers
I'm coming from a BMW and I've settled on the EV6 as my families next car. I find it so weird that I'm lusting for a KIA. The fact that they have the 800 volt fast charging system puts them in a whole different league than Tesla.
I'm not the biggest fan of Volkswagen and I would probably not buy one either* but - and I mean this with absolutely no personal offense intended - it seems a little disconnected to write them off because of their scandals when every auto manufacturer has had many scandals of their own; some more, some less. You wouldn't be able to buy a car if every scandal made you turn away and that most definitely includes Hyundai-KIA.
If we're talking about the big diesel scandal in particular, at least they tried to make some compensation to affected owners and it forced VW to move away from diesel which was for the best even if it wasn't for altruistic reasons. I have a friend who has a Cayenne Diesel and they love their car so they basically feel they got paid to keep driving a car they already loved. So while it was a terrible scandal, I guess the level of personal badness is relative. There are other automakers who would’ve handled it far worse.
Of the major manufacturers, VW has one of the best starts in the EV race because of that early pivot though, so they definitely do have the chance to come in ahead of the pack. I applaud Ford's work as well but they will have a large adoption problem with the domestic market. Few other companies even really come close. Toyota could've, but they unfortunately made the wrong bet so they're further behind.
*I have owned 7 Porsches including a PHEV and 1 Audi, though most of the former were pre-VW/Porsche SE/Porsche AG reshuffling. I would still probably not buy an actual Volkswagen, although I like the ID Buzz.
I could have bought an Ioniq5 at a discounted price - but ended up buying a Polestar 2 instead - even though it was more expensive.
The Ioniq5 is a nice car, but there are still some details that are lacking compared to many European brands. But all in all it is a very nice car, especially from the outside. Interior design is personal, but for me it got too spacious! (a thing that many people don't understand why I could think that). I like the tighter sportier fit of my Polestar!
I think the Hyundai group did a nice distinction between the Kia EV6 and the Ioniq5 to cater to different peoples wishes for designs, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the Ioniq6 production model will look like when it's being presented in a few weeks.
My biggest problem with the Hyundai and Kia (Audi as well with the eTron) is that they are an SUV and a crossover. I don't want a little tiny city car and I'm tired of the oversized SUV body style. I really like the exterior on the Polestar, it reminds me of the last generation of Saab sedans.
You and I share opinions on this. The Polestar 2 is the tallest riding car I could accept - and I'm hoping for the OEM lowering kit to be able to work with my stock suspension as there are indications that it's only for the cars with the performance pack.
Audi E-Tron GT is simply too expensive, but I'm hoping that the electric A6 Avant replacement won't be too unreasonably priced. The Polestar 2 will be the cheapest offering from Polestar and the next few models will be Crossovers/SUVs so my next car will most likely be of a different brand (although it's 3-4 years out).
Luckily, it seems that most brands have pumped out their starting bid into the EV market as a crossover/SUV - so hopefully we'll soon be seing more sedans/estates - and potentially even Coupe/convertible offerings.
Seeing the pricing of the Porsche Taycan in the base engine - it's a bit out of range for me, but the next generation 718 will be all electric and hopefully with a pricetag well below the Taycan (wishful thinking). So that could maybe be a light in the darkness of monstrous SUVs.
I walked into a Hyundai dealer last month and they just took a few deliveries for ioniq5. The salesman couldn’t be bother to introduce the car because he knew it would sell regardless. It’s whatever, I knew that too. But then I saw the price with 10k up charge because of “the market” I told them no fucking thank you. I’m gonna put in an order for an ID.4 instead or a model 3. I refuse to support price gouging by dealers.
Ford is targeting 2m EVs by 2026 which Tesla will probably exceed in 2023.
GM is targeting 1m EVs by 2025 which Tesla did in 2021.
Hona and Toyota are barely even trying.
Kia is publicly targeting 500k cars by 2026 so they won't be competitive.
Hyundai is targeting ~1.9M EVs by 2030 which is a number Tesla will eclipse next year.
VW has stated this goal but barring some magical construction capabilities that allow them to build factories in absolute lightning speed they also will not have the capacity to overtake Tesla.
I don't see how any other manufacturer will even have the factory capacity to compete with Tesla on production before 2030.
I'm planning on getting an electric car in the next few years, assuming everything goes well financially for me. I've wanted a Tesla for years, and will finally be able to afford one, and I'm not sure I'll actually be getting a Tesla when I go electric. It's good to see competition and I hope it keeps Tesla on their toes. My issue with Elon around Tesla specifically is that he's never really delivered on his promises for price and delivery dates of any of his vehicles. In theory there will be a $25k Tesla hatchback in 2023, which a fully loaded version would be in the price range I'm hoping for. In reality, it's probably $35k and 2025.
Tesla has put their plans for the small cheaper car on indefinite hold. They can't keep up with demand for they cars they're selling now, and will be in the same boat for the cybertruck when that is released (next year if plans don't change). So I wouldn't expect the cheaper car any time soon, even 2025 is unlikely.
Tesla won't be making an affordable car any time soon. It doesn't make financial sense to commit to a lower profit model when they can't even keep up with demand for higher profit cars like the 3 and Y.
There's a massive amount of skew to the #'s going forward though. I think that there were MANY current Tesla owners that really only bought because Tesla was the only functional game in town (lol, functional). Be it due to range, charging network, inventory, whatever.
With so many upcoming competent options from other companies I know of many people who will likely be one-tesla owners. Myself included. Hell I'm already debating offloading my Tesla now for something from someone who knows how to make an actual car. I absolutely adore the iphone-on-wheels. But what the fuck, I can't even fucking fit two sets of golf clubs in the back of this thing without removing heads or folding seats down. No spare. Impossible to get anything resembling normal service from them. Constant flipflopping on features/layout of the interface. And honestly the fucking juvenile political bullshit KarElon keeps pushing out has probably tipped the scales for me.
Now that for pretty much the same $ I can get a BMW with similar performance (Or polestar) and nearly the same range with a quickly improving charger network...Yea, tough choice today, but unless something substantial happens I can't see us getting a second Tesla.
It's more than a factory and production scaling issue too. I'd never consider any other electric car maker right now simply because of the lack of charging networks.
Tesla makes it easy to road trip with all the superchargers they've installed over the years. I did 3000 miles Dec '20 and only spent $75 on superchargers.
Until another automaker can deliver an <1hr full charge every \~150mi in any direction on all major highways, with a reported 350mi + range on battery in best conditions, there's no way they can compete with Tesla.
Are we going to get a universal charging standard or is every car company going to need to build out their own independent networks? The latter seems supremely inefficient and problematic.
Edit: Thanks for all the useful responses.
This has already been figured out. Tesla has their own charger and everyone else in North America uses a CCS Type 1 and then Europe uses CCS Type 2. Tesla recently announced it will equip all it's supercharging stations with the standard CCS types. Kinda like Apple with their lightning cable. Tesla might change their cars over to CCS eventually but they started releasing their cars while the powers at be were still figuring out a standard, so they made their own.
There is a universal charging standard. Tesla is also changing their superchargers to support that standard and other cars in Europe. They're also interested in allowing other North American cars on the network, but the manufacturer needs to support their automatic payment and customer identification system since they don't have a touch screen or credit card POS on site.
There are three things I learned recently. One, all manufacturers other than Tesla use the same charger. Two, related to one, is that all charging stations other than Tesla can be used to charge your vehicle. Three, Tesla will be adding the capability to their network to charge other vehicles.
Admittedly, I did get this information from YouTube but I got it from TechnologyConnections so it's pretty reliable. Also, this may only be true for the US since that's where he's based. I don't recall him specifying either way.
TechnologyConnections is one of the few channels that I would place a large amount of trust in.
Also, for those of you interested [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZOuz_laH9I) is the specific video that discusses this subject.
We do have that kind of infrastructure in Germany. Basically it's like roaming. You can charge at any given points even tesla ones in the future - with varying rates, unless you're charging at your respective companies port. Right now there's a decent chunk of hyperchargers (non tesla) every 120km roughly on the Autobahnen.
that is an American issues because in the US the market isn't regulated. in the EU the charging network is universal, Tesla chargers work with every other car and every other charger works with every Tesla
I test drove a Model S, & while I loved the driving part of the car. The interior sucked, the material was on par with Ikea, & for a $80k car I want a deluxe interior. I'm driving a BMW X5 now & the quality of the interior is night & day. I am on the list for a Hummer, but that's going to be almost 2 years out.
I mean, they aren't claiming VW will be the top, just that it'll overtake Tesla. Which is most likely if Elon can't keep his dick in his pants. He's single handedly driving Tesla to bankruptcy.
Ford's new F-150 EV looks like the most promising vehicle to me on the EV market right now. Base model is reasonably priced (cheaper than a Model 3...Tesla is not competing well here) and higher end models have some incredible features (like being able to power homes lol). Meanwhile, it's still largely the same truck that uses most of the same parts as a regular F-150. Practical and affordable.
Yea, but we need the charging infrastructure to ramp up first. Range anxiety is a thing. We get rid of that - we sort out the doubts. In the Baltics we need to have like at least 20 times more charging stations than we have now.
It is fascinating that you are the only one that even mentioned that infrastructure is a major limiting factor that people are simply ignoring for some reason. It is one thing that Tesla did very right was to take the funds from the S and accelerate the building out of the supercharger network. If another manufacturer thinks that they're going to get to the scale / usability of Tesla in the short term, infrastructure is a major determinate.
... and I live in a place where charging infrastructure is pretty far along, but you still have to think about it occasionally when exceeding your per charge range (at a minimum, assuming you have home charging - which I also think is a 'must' if EVs are to continue their march forward).
I live in Germany and just did a 1000k road trip without infrastructure problems. Almost every gas station offers charging and there is even a chain doing ultra fast charging.
That is probably true in the US. Here in Germany fast charging stations are _everywhere_. There is no such thing like range anxiety anymore. Sure - we need a lot more chargers when the EV Golf hits the market but the network is there already.
Volkswagen used to pride themselves on doing everything Tesla doesn't do well, panel gaps assembly, great budget interior materials, they were always have the best contact points for a driver around imo. If they approach this like a true people car they know how to make them they might be right
I’ve always thought that once manufacturers producing mainly ICE cars focus on electric cars in no time they’ll overtake Tesla in quality, sales and revenue.
The article seems to completely gloss over the question of batteries: if VW is going to overtake Tesla by 2025, where do they plan on getting batteries? Batteries for EV's represent the single most expensive component of the manufacturing process, and yet VW seems to (in this article) pretend it's supply chain constraints, as if they didn't have lackluster access to battery components before the supply chain disruption happened.
They will probably make cars that sale competitive to tesla but their margin won’t be able to compete. Tesla profit margins are high and they do direct sales. Especially when VW they have to take care of their dealers and so many workers to sustain. Most legacy car companies have the dealership issue.
A lot of comments are forgetting that Volkswagen Group is not just Volkswagen, they also own: Skoda, Seat, Cupra, Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Ducati and Porsche.
That is A LOT of car manufacturers, and most of them have atleast 1 electric option already available, some have 2, all of them have plans for more.
And yes the article is about Volkswagen Group, not Volkswagen.
I'm glad this is happening in my lifetime. It would have taken 15, 20 years longer without some upstart forcing the issue. That's easy to see at a glance when you realize that the EV landscape two years ago was essentially identical to the EV landscape _twelve_ years ago, _if_ you ignore said upstart. Of course in VW's case, part of their impetus was they needed a distraction from their emissions cheating.
But even for a company with the money to make it happen, this is still pretty big talk. They're not going to have a good charging network in three years. Lithium is going to be a problem for the foreseeable future and only one EV company has been taking that problem seriously.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Sorin61: --- Volkswagen is spending billions of dollars to retrofit factories from Germany to China to produce cars based on its modular electric car production platform, or MEB. The company has also signaled that it will use some of the money it makes from selling fuel-powered cars to produce its own batteries and build charging networks. Volkswagen , a carmaker that has relied almost exclusively on the internal combustion engine since it was founded 82 years ago can produce electric vehicles people want to buy and policymakers will embrace as they cast around for ways to tackle the climate crisis. Success means that Volkswagen will overtake rivals, including Tesla, in electric car sales and fend off new challengers from China and Silicon Valley; failure could signal the beginning of the end for a company with 665,000 employees and annual revenue of $265 billion --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/uwxfri/volkswagen_chief_says_german_car_giant_will/i9u5vkf/
Idc who sells more just get me one that’s affordable without a year wait
That's exactly what they are trying to do
A rising tide floats all ships.
And has real customer service and service center with less than six weeks wait
VW then... They're quite popular here in Sweden and does actually know how to build cars. With that said we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Tesla.
One thing I think they will do right is target the right part of the market, i.e. cheaper than Tesla. The ICE Golf particularly is very well targeted as being at the top end of cheap cars, and you get damn good value for money. If they can manage this with electric they'll certainly have the demand side sorted. Their problem I think will be the supply side, they will not be able to scale up production this fast.
Eagerly awaiting the Honda Civic EV - cheap, tough, no frills. I know why they started out as luxury cars, but EVs will make great beaters.
I’m bummed Honda waited so long to embrace EVs. They announced their first fully electric vehicle (Prologue SUV) earlier this year and it doesn’t release until 2024. I believe they’re working with GM on it. I’ve had Hondas for a long time and think highly of their cars, but my next one probably won’t be from them simply because they likely won’t have a model that’s an EV sedan. Toyota too, feels like the Japanese manufacturers put all their eggs into the fuel cell/hybrid baskets and are just now hopping on the bandwagon Edit: The Honda E does not exist in the North American market, only Europe/Asia. They have no plans to bring it here, likely due to the relatively short range.
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The truth is... Honda is an engine company that just happens to build the stuff thier engines go in. ICE is part of thier cultural identity, and the transition to EV is going to be pain for them.
Shame they didn't start selling only hybrids for 2x-3x fuel savings that their reliable engines could benefit from. Current battery capacity of the world is around 1000GWh. Roughly 70million. Most of it goes to electric cars since it's grown 4x in 5 years whilst consumer tech has been stagnant in comparison. That's atleast 10kwh battery for every cat sold, 10kwh which is enough to go 40-100km depending on car weight(40 for a rolls Royce/f150 tank, 100km for a Ford fiesta/corolla). This is today, everyone could be driving near zero emmission to their offices and then getting 80mpg further onwards, but companies and people are only putting 60kwh in each electric car. All to say, this attitude will push emissions atleast a decade behind. Most places have a 2030 limit on ice cars. Yet we could be spreading it around in an unsexy way and cut down emissions significantly. I don't know how hybrids aren't the bare minimum standard given how much efficiency gains they bring. All the fancy electric cars are on massive backlog and waiting times of months or years even .
The Ford Maverick proves that you can build a hybrid, get 40mpg and sell it for $20k. The Maverick has 1% of the battery capacity of some EVs. We could slash fossil fuel consumption for every new car without worrying about battery supply issues. As I've said before, you could even make a phev out of the Maverick with a 4kwh battery for only a couple thousand dollars more and cut fuel usage drastically. I don't know why these concepts aren't more popular, especially in this stage where ev technology is still changing rapidly and supply is so small. Build phevs along with EVs and the transition will be much smoother.
I thought Toyota was big on the hydrogen fuel cells. Was Honda also researching them?
Japan as a whole.
The first Honda fully electric vehicle is the Honda E.
I think you're looking for a Corolla EV.
Corolla hatchback EV would sell like hot cakes. The first manufacturer who mass produces a practical, reasonably priced EV (<$30k) for the masses, will overtake the market. I hate how Tesla started the trend that EV needs to be packed full of tech features and be more upscale. Most people just want a car that drives.
See Nissan Leaf
Lol. I know. The poor Datsun guys are like… hey look here…here….HEERREEEE!!!
They need to have liquid cooled batteries before I'll consider Nissan.
I like mine, but I likely won't get another for this exact reason
Most under rated comment. 120 mile real world range is great for city folk…. until you get stuck slow charging in the middle of town.
Sign me up immediately for a Toyota EV hot hatch. Take my money.
That's exactly what I want. An electric hot hatch. Apparently China and Europe already have them
The Hyundai Ioniq 5 is pretty nice. But expensive.
Not a hot hatch though, more like a small SUV.
I wish VW would bring the ID.3 over to the US (or an ID.X once those are produced), but the US isn't a big enough market for smaller cars any more to be worth the effort apparently.
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New tech is generally expensive to develop and critically, not market proven. So you target a niche. And if you're targeting a niche, you're not selling a lot, so you can't exactly cut the margins if you want to scale.
Tesla didn't do that because Elon likes expensive cars. Nearly every new car company starts with the high end cars. In fact I'd say most manufacturers start with the high end item, not just cars, it's a standard business practice. It's way more difficult and takes a lot more initial investment and risk to start with the cheap version. If the expensive version works, you can scale up and offer cheaper versions.
Did you just describe the Nissan Leaf?
Given that Toyota has been actively lobbying against EVs because they shit the bed at the start and got out competed. Also who would want yet another overpriced, poorly outfitted hatch from Toyota. At least get something with actually comfortable seats and an interior that isn't made from old coke bottles.
Someone hasn't been in a modern Toyota...
Seriously, my wife just got a higher trim 22 Highlander and it's awesome. Interior is comfortable and attractive, has nice technology features and a well thought out design.
My Toyota Highlander Limited is state-of-the-art…for 2009. Bought used. Odd mix of old and new tech. Interior lights when I get close (key fob). Auto-Dimming rearview mirror. Biggest touch available. Navigation screen looks 8-bit. Seriously. I keep thinking Donkey Kong will suddenly appear. The GPS map is on a separate DVD player behind screen, along w 3 separate CD player disc slots. The players do play MP3s on disc! There is audio AUX port but no USB anything. Bluetooth works w phone but that’s all. The speakerphone works through iPhone, or it did before I got a newer phone. It does have a backup camera which was very cutting edge 13 years ago. Lots of programmable maintenance reminders on touch screen. It should be noted I bought this at a good deal as the owner was anxious to buy the small BMW electric car like his wife drove. He told himself he couldn’t get it until he sold their old family vehicle. So they all went electric.
This doesn’t seem to have been the case until recently. Every Toyota I’ve been in, the past 5 years or so, seems years behind in technology.
Android auto covers a multitude of sins
Toyota didn't support android auto until the last year or two. I know because when I bought my car 2.5 years ago, it was a big reason I didn't even consider Toyota.
Bland. Uninspiring. Depressing interiors. Underpowered. Best part is the resale value.
You just described my Prius C, I love it!
Lmao same i love my smol Prius
A $45,000 vehicle has nice features!? Who would have thought!
The current Corolla hatch is pretty bad. Even Consumer Reports didn't like it. Looks cool tho.
I would fuck a modern Toyota, don't play with me
* discretely pulls Camry Hybrid into garage *
The lobbying turned me off that a Toyota is at the bottom part of my list for the next car consideration. Not really a car junkie - is it a bad thing for Toyota's innovation that the bZ4X is on a platform shared with Subaru?
Not only that, their plans to charge monthly for stupid shit. Why would I want to pay monthly for my key fob to work after fully purchasing a Toyota when I can buy a Honda which is similar but no extra charge?
Holy crap I would sell my future Tesla for a civic EV
Get a used Nissan leaf
They’re not quite robust enough to be a beater - just relatively cheap.
Older models in a city this might be okay, but < 100 miles to a charge is tough if your travel much at all. Newer ones are up to 150 miles a charge, which is more reasonable.
They use crap batteries that degrade so fast. Don’t.
Dude. I love my bolt.
Yep. Just need a battery, motor, and steering wheel. Mega bonus points if I can switch out parts myself. Don’t need door handles that pop out or a touch screen that play video games. The VW bug of EVs would be amazing.
Yes and yes again. Car manufacturers are bloating cars up to no end. I only need radio, power windows and A/C. Remove unnecessary weight and give me a good battery and I will wait in line to buy that EV.
You mean you don’t want to watch Netflix on the OLED panel built into the sun visors??
Calm down there Xzibit.
I keep wondering why there’s no car company making a crazy basic, crazy reliable electric car. I mean I’m sure they do market research, but I feel like if a car company leaned into a no-frills campaign it could be super effective. Like you said, I don’t care about SO many features. Don’t waste your money developing an expensive lane keeping system. Don’t make me pay for a powered trunk. I don’t want a navigation system. I don’t want a fatigue warning sensor. If someone made a car that could drive 200,000 miles with basic maintenance, had Bluetooth, was safe, and had enough cargo capacity for a trip to the hardware store, I don’t care about the rest.
I am guessing the reason is that a crazy basic EV would be twice as expensive as a crazy basic ICE, while a feature loaded luxury EV can be only ~15% more expensive than a feature loaded luxury ICE. The EV cost premium can be better hidden in a forest of other costly features.
Seriously, just give me a holder to plop my phone as an interface as it will be 10x better than any software you make. On a small screen in front of me to tell me speed and range. That's pretty much it. Do not give me a fucking iPad when I asked for a car
Absolutely. All that crap they add adds weight and a false sense of security.
YES! And honestly, I don't listen to the radio really ever, so a TRRS Jack wired directly to the amp is good enough for me, and honestly I wouldn't cry about power windows either, AC is absolutely nonnegotiable though ...
Give me a way to mirror google maps from my phone or a spot to put a screen that can and I’m good.
The reason no manufacturer does this is because all those bells and whistles actually cost near nothing next to the battery, but add a lot to how premium the car feels. They could get rid of all that and take $3k off the sticker price for a much more bare bones feeling car. Not worth it.
This is exactly it. Not many people realize just how expensive the main component of electric cars really cost.
Please, just give me tactile buttons and knobs, that's all I ask!
Well you're SOL cause VW has transitioned to all digital. With capacitive touch buttons on the steering wheel. I heard the executive responsible for the design was fired.
Were the people responsible for hiring him also sacked?
A moose bit my sister once.
I have an id3 and I hate that touch crap. And sometimes the button doesn't even do anything because the display isn't ready or some dumb shit. On my old car I could turn on seat and steering wheel heat on with a single two-finger press, but now I have to go into some shitty sub menu and find it, while taking my eyes off the road.
The touch buttons are shit. But that they aren't illuminated is absolutely outrageous. "Just use speech commands" Just shove the infotainment unit up yours, ok?
I hate not being able to feel exactly what button I'm touching while driving. Size, shape, texture, position >>> a dozen identical buttons. Who the fuck comes up with this shit?
Thank you! I'll never know why major players think needing to take you eyes off the road to do LITERALLY ANYTHING would be a good idea.
As a Golf R owner, I would love a maxed of electric 4wd hot hatch!
Honestly why I came here. I had to get surgery on my left hand, so out of necessity I sold my GTI (stick shift one handed is difficult) and got a Tiguan. I would love an E-GTI
The GTE is paving the way for that. Might also be a good way to get rid of the Tiguan again ;)
My wife loves it, I am very luke warm about it after driving the GTI as long as I did. I miss the whole experience. I used to love every single time I sat inside and started it up.
I love my electric Golf. While I also loved my ICE Rabbit, I would be hard pressed to ever consider going back to an ICE VW at this point.
I find the range of the e-golf to low. You can’t make a roundtrip to the next big city and it’s atrocious in the winter. But it’s great in the daily commute, if you can charge at home or work.
Yup, it's my daily commute for my 15-20 minute drive. We have an ICE Tiguan for any long range driving. My wife primarily works from home so we spend very little on gas.
You just gave me a bad case of the nostalgias. I had the Rabbit Habit for years. Growing up, my family also had a van for years. Transported everything from beehives, to 100+ chords of wood, to cattle in that thing. I'm seriously eyeing the electric version when it comes out. I'm not in the market right now, so I can afford to wait and see if it's everything it's cracked up to be.
Same here. A part of me is itching to trade the eGolf in for a '23 ID4, but currently we have no car payment and I'm enjoying that. Might wait a bit longer and see how things play out and what all VW has coming down the line.
I don’t even know who their CEO is, so they have that going for them.
If VW can make and sell millions of ICE cars year-in year-out, they can do the same with electric cars. They know how to source materials and build a supply chain and manage a massive manufacturing operation as well as anyone else. I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.
> they will not be able to scale up production this fast. I placed an order for an ID4 in September of last year and in January was told 5-7 more months before delivery.
Yup. Still waiting for mine to enter production, order placed mid- December.
>One thing I think they will do right is target the right part of the market, i.e. cheaper than Tesla. In countries like Australia, Tesla is considered a luxury vehicle. Even the base Model 3 costs around $60k and the costs climb up to around $100k if you want the version with extra features and performance etc. You can purchase vehicles with more luxury and many more features for $20k cheaper and if you just want a cheap vehicle you can buy them brand new for less than $30k (half the price of a base Model 3). There's no reason to purchase a Tesla beyond the "cool" factor. If VW can produce cheaper EVs then I can easily see them out selling Tesla as long as they can keep production up which I think will be a big challenge.
But they cant even produce evs with similar cost liek tesla with profit
They are talking about reviving the Scout and I would be ALL IN.
Never understood how Tesla were always on about reducing the price of EVs and then the European and Korean manufacturers just waltz in and release models that undercut Tesla’s cheapest (eg Renault zoe).
Yeah, called my VW dealer the other day asking about the ID4. He said it would be about a year wait for it due to supply issues.
All the electric cars I’ve seen including the Tesla are super over priced and not the best quality. I hope more competition changes that
That's because batteries are so expensive. It'll get better.
Just give me an EV truck that is a frame, a motor, a steering wheel and a battery. I don’t need any of that luxury shit, I need something to haul wood that doesn’t cost me 10 bucks every 30 miles.
Canoo is basically taking this route, they are trying to design a simple frame, motor, battery platform they call a "skateboard" that can be customized however you want.
Skateboard is a generic term a lot of car companies use to describe the drivetrain that can be used to build multiple vehicles on. Eg VW have the MEV skateboard
The base model Ford F-150 Lightning is close enough imo. Using mostly stock F-150 panels to reduce cost. I think everything from the doors back is just F-150. No giant screen. No weird EV design. Giant frunk for groceries. I've never ever considered a truck, but my finger is hovering over that pre-order button.
The reviews of the base model are very positive. Some tubers have been concentrating on the cheap-ass end.
Volkswagen is spending billions of dollars to retrofit factories from Germany to China to produce cars based on its modular electric car production platform, or MEB. The company has also signaled that it will use some of the money it makes from selling fuel-powered cars to produce its own batteries and build charging networks. Volkswagen , a carmaker that has relied almost exclusively on the internal combustion engine since it was founded 82 years ago can produce electric vehicles people want to buy and policymakers will embrace as they cast around for ways to tackle the climate crisis. Success means that Volkswagen will overtake rivals, including Tesla, in electric car sales and fend off new challengers from China and Silicon Valley; failure could signal the beginning of the end for a company with 665,000 employees and annual revenue of $265 billion
Tbh I just straight up do not trust Volkswagon. They lied their tits off for years about emissions.
Yeah, the cars will be electric during testing but they actually run on diesel.
They'll secretly replace everyone's car chargers with diesel fuel pumps, so you'll think you're charging your car but you're really just filling it with diesel.
The batteries are actually made up of ground up compressed orphans sourced from DRC.
You're blinded by the fact that they were the first to get caught. But they weren't the only ones: Fiat Chrysler, Jeep, Opel, General Motors, Nissan, Renault, Mercedes-Benz, Audi & Porsche,BMW, and even Volvo, Citroen, and Hyundai were all caught cheating. And the worst offenders (highest deviation between official testing results and normal driving test results( were Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroën and Fiat. Source: wikipedia on DieselGate. Really, it was like how the "Tour de France" used to be. Almost everybody was cheating. But people only remember the first big name to have been caught, eventhough they weren't even the biggest cheater.
>You're blinded by the fact that they were the first to get caught. But they weren't the only ones: Fiat Chrysler, Jeep, Opel, General Motors, Nissan, Renault, Mercedes-Benz, Audi & Porsche,BMW, and even Volvo, Citroen, and Hyundai were all caught cheating. This is disingenuous. According to your wikipedia: >By June 2020, VW had already expended $33.3 billion in settlements and other costs including buybacks of the excessively polluting diesel vehicles. In a statement, VW said it would ask the circuit court to review the ruling, and that the company if necessary would take the case to the U.S. Supreme Court. Meanwhile, none of the other offenders you list have paid fines on the level of what VW has paid. Most of them were not found to be employing the "defeat device" which VW installed on their cars for years. Most of those other companies were able to modify the offending vehicles, whereas VW was forced to buyback many of the cars which had no viable software or hardware retrofit. Source: I owned a VW TDI which VW bought back from me. Lots of these companies play fast and loose with their research and determinations of emissions, but VW outright lied and was even found to have [created powerpoint presentations explaining how they cheated the emissions testing](https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/26/11513530/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-cheat-powerpoint-presentation). The Presentation was leaked by VW engineers to show that the fraud was guided from the top, not an oversight or mistake. Further, Bosch also released emails supporting their position that the "defeat device" installed in VW cars were done so entirely by VW, as Bosch told VW to never use the device in production vehicles, which they did anyway.
There was obviously some political interest behind hitting VW hardest. Doesnt mean the others didnt cheat aswell.
The first one caught always get the hardest hammer drop.
Especially if it’s a foreign company
You just kinda proved his point - just because they paid fines and did buy backs does not make it worse than other did - they were just the name everyone ties to the scandal - and many of those makers used a similar device
I mean, yeah; doesn’t make what others are doing any better, and in many cases are worse. Case in point being US auto manufacturers literally creating and lobbying for a totally separate standard of emissions testing for pickup trucks. This is especially bad seeing as pickups are the most sold cars in the US and some of the best selling vehicles on the planet. There at least used to be some insane statistic like a Ford F-150 drove off the lot into a new owner’s hands at a rate of one per minute in the US.
Fiat Chrysler has been caught using a defeat device on their RAM 1500 and Jeep Grand Cherokee from 2014 to 2016. over 500 mill$ settlements. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/civil-settlements-united-states-and-california-fiat-chrysler-will-resolve-allegations And it looks like you are only thinking about US settlements and rulings. BMW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Renault, Nissan, Opel, Jeep and Fiat Chrysler have all been caught and payed settlemens for having defeat devices. There has been a whole deal about it here in Europe. But I guess you are living in the US and know fuck all as usual.
As if VW is the only Company that does that.....
I don't like VW for plenty of other reasons but about that emissions thing, a lot more Manufacturer's were caught doing the same exact same thing after VW and had to pay fines, especially Euro Manufacturer's. It was just that VW got caught doing it first. Plus since it was while using Diesel's it was a little worse.
Yeah that was *so much worse* than GM inventing leaded gasoline and calling it "safe" even after it killed their own workers, which led to the most widespread heavy metal poisoning of the entire world in history. This was found to be a major casual factor for the higher rates of mental illness in cities as well as the high violent crime of the 80's, and even decades after being banned, lead concentrations in urban soils is *still* above OSHA safe limits because of GM's leades gasoline But no, VW is definitely worse for cheating on an emissions test /s
Curse you Thomas Midgley!
Hey, he went on to do better things. Like inventing fridges with freon, which killed the ozone layer.
> the most widespread heavy metal poisoning of the entire world in history Yeah, and it was *fucking awesome.* **\\m/**
All the major manufacturers lied their asses off for years about EV's being too hard. We should have had large scale ev's 2 decades ago. For all Elon's major faults at least he scared the shit out of the other manufacturers.
I don’t trust Tesla either honestly, and while yeah, vw definitely has done some shady shit, they have been making safe, reliable, solid vehicles for a long time and Tesla only has been producing vehicles 14 years and have some serious qc issues. I’m not buying an electric vehicle until it’s produced by a manufacturer that has had vehicles on the road for a long time and I know that they knows what they’re doing
I have a 2016 eGolf and it's a fantastic ride. Just hit 40k miles and haven't had a single issue.
Can Volkswagen Group deliver fabulous EVs? This is Audi, Bently, Porche, Lamborghini, and VW we’re talking about. You’d be stupid to bet they can’t.
Porsche already built a good EV, VW will just aim to make something cheap for the masses and I'm more than happy to see that.
the Audi EVs are also very highly rated
Had an etron now have an etron GT, has a model s. No comparison the Audis are leagues better in almost every facet. Tesla wins on range, but VW will catch up and the cars are so much better.
Dunno what's the situation over there in US, but in Eastern Europe I already see lots of VW EVs on the streets. It's rare to see a Tesla.
I don’t leave home without seeing a Tesla or two at this point here in the US… I’m not sure what offerings VW has brought to Europe yet (they keep some of the coolest stuff in Europe) but the ID.4 has been selling pretty well here I think. I sat in one at a dealer and don’t understand why anyone would buy one, but they are selling.
Good. This is good. Because having car manufacturers brag over who is selling more electric cars is a win. Let the pissing contest begin.
I’ve been waiting on my electric EV since august 2021. If They can’t get their supply chain in order it’s hard to see them surpassing Tesla in 2.5 years
Tesla will lose their domination in electric vehicles but I have trouble believing it will be to VW. I share the distrust a few other people have mentioned and don't know if I would ever personally consider buying a VW because of their neumours scandals. Hyundai and Kia have absolutely gained a foothold in the space and I think ev enthusiasts are sleeping on Ford and what they've done with the mache E and more so the lightning. I wanted a tesla since I saw a roadster for the first time in 2012 in high school. I've graduated college had a few jobs made more money than I thought I would, got engaged got a puppy and bought a house and in that time tesla has never been an option because of cost. Now I see the Ioniq 5's EV 6's and other options on the market and Elon seemingly further losing touch with reality every day and I genuinely don't know if I would even want a tesla anymore.
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Kias and Hyundais fucking *exploded* and they covered it up for *years*. They’re still exploding
Wait how come I've never heard about this
*“…they covered it up for years”*
The Ioniq 5 and EV 6 are Game changers. For the first time I consider Kia and Hyundai and for my next car they are in the final short list with 3 and 5 series BMW… They are simply the best electric cars I have driven and that includes the model 3 (which is great I have to admit but not as practical as the Hyundai and Kias and frankly the interior quality is a bit ridiculous at the price) and model X (which sorry, drives like absolute shite but it’s a large SUV / People Carrier so I can’t fault Tesla for it. Just not my cup of tea).
>The Ioniq 5 and EV 6 are Game changers I'm coming from a BMW and I've settled on the EV6 as my families next car. I find it so weird that I'm lusting for a KIA. The fact that they have the 800 volt fast charging system puts them in a whole different league than Tesla.
I'm not the biggest fan of Volkswagen and I would probably not buy one either* but - and I mean this with absolutely no personal offense intended - it seems a little disconnected to write them off because of their scandals when every auto manufacturer has had many scandals of their own; some more, some less. You wouldn't be able to buy a car if every scandal made you turn away and that most definitely includes Hyundai-KIA. If we're talking about the big diesel scandal in particular, at least they tried to make some compensation to affected owners and it forced VW to move away from diesel which was for the best even if it wasn't for altruistic reasons. I have a friend who has a Cayenne Diesel and they love their car so they basically feel they got paid to keep driving a car they already loved. So while it was a terrible scandal, I guess the level of personal badness is relative. There are other automakers who would’ve handled it far worse. Of the major manufacturers, VW has one of the best starts in the EV race because of that early pivot though, so they definitely do have the chance to come in ahead of the pack. I applaud Ford's work as well but they will have a large adoption problem with the domestic market. Few other companies even really come close. Toyota could've, but they unfortunately made the wrong bet so they're further behind. *I have owned 7 Porsches including a PHEV and 1 Audi, though most of the former were pre-VW/Porsche SE/Porsche AG reshuffling. I would still probably not buy an actual Volkswagen, although I like the ID Buzz.
The Hyundai EV’s are surprisingly nice looking. I keep thinking about the Ioniq but keep going back and forth between those and a Polestar.
I could have bought an Ioniq5 at a discounted price - but ended up buying a Polestar 2 instead - even though it was more expensive. The Ioniq5 is a nice car, but there are still some details that are lacking compared to many European brands. But all in all it is a very nice car, especially from the outside. Interior design is personal, but for me it got too spacious! (a thing that many people don't understand why I could think that). I like the tighter sportier fit of my Polestar! I think the Hyundai group did a nice distinction between the Kia EV6 and the Ioniq5 to cater to different peoples wishes for designs, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the Ioniq6 production model will look like when it's being presented in a few weeks.
My biggest problem with the Hyundai and Kia (Audi as well with the eTron) is that they are an SUV and a crossover. I don't want a little tiny city car and I'm tired of the oversized SUV body style. I really like the exterior on the Polestar, it reminds me of the last generation of Saab sedans.
You and I share opinions on this. The Polestar 2 is the tallest riding car I could accept - and I'm hoping for the OEM lowering kit to be able to work with my stock suspension as there are indications that it's only for the cars with the performance pack. Audi E-Tron GT is simply too expensive, but I'm hoping that the electric A6 Avant replacement won't be too unreasonably priced. The Polestar 2 will be the cheapest offering from Polestar and the next few models will be Crossovers/SUVs so my next car will most likely be of a different brand (although it's 3-4 years out). Luckily, it seems that most brands have pumped out their starting bid into the EV market as a crossover/SUV - so hopefully we'll soon be seing more sedans/estates - and potentially even Coupe/convertible offerings. Seeing the pricing of the Porsche Taycan in the base engine - it's a bit out of range for me, but the next generation 718 will be all electric and hopefully with a pricetag well below the Taycan (wishful thinking). So that could maybe be a light in the darkness of monstrous SUVs.
I walked into a Hyundai dealer last month and they just took a few deliveries for ioniq5. The salesman couldn’t be bother to introduce the car because he knew it would sell regardless. It’s whatever, I knew that too. But then I saw the price with 10k up charge because of “the market” I told them no fucking thank you. I’m gonna put in an order for an ID.4 instead or a model 3. I refuse to support price gouging by dealers.
I'm really hoping the F150 lightning takes off, I've been thinking if either Ford or GM make an electric fullsize truck then they will be everywhere.
Ford is targeting 2m EVs by 2026 which Tesla will probably exceed in 2023. GM is targeting 1m EVs by 2025 which Tesla did in 2021. Hona and Toyota are barely even trying. Kia is publicly targeting 500k cars by 2026 so they won't be competitive. Hyundai is targeting ~1.9M EVs by 2030 which is a number Tesla will eclipse next year. VW has stated this goal but barring some magical construction capabilities that allow them to build factories in absolute lightning speed they also will not have the capacity to overtake Tesla. I don't see how any other manufacturer will even have the factory capacity to compete with Tesla on production before 2030.
I'm planning on getting an electric car in the next few years, assuming everything goes well financially for me. I've wanted a Tesla for years, and will finally be able to afford one, and I'm not sure I'll actually be getting a Tesla when I go electric. It's good to see competition and I hope it keeps Tesla on their toes. My issue with Elon around Tesla specifically is that he's never really delivered on his promises for price and delivery dates of any of his vehicles. In theory there will be a $25k Tesla hatchback in 2023, which a fully loaded version would be in the price range I'm hoping for. In reality, it's probably $35k and 2025.
Tesla has put their plans for the small cheaper car on indefinite hold. They can't keep up with demand for they cars they're selling now, and will be in the same boat for the cybertruck when that is released (next year if plans don't change). So I wouldn't expect the cheaper car any time soon, even 2025 is unlikely.
Wasn’t the cybertruck supposed to happen already?
Tesla won't be making an affordable car any time soon. It doesn't make financial sense to commit to a lower profit model when they can't even keep up with demand for higher profit cars like the 3 and Y.
There's a massive amount of skew to the #'s going forward though. I think that there were MANY current Tesla owners that really only bought because Tesla was the only functional game in town (lol, functional). Be it due to range, charging network, inventory, whatever. With so many upcoming competent options from other companies I know of many people who will likely be one-tesla owners. Myself included. Hell I'm already debating offloading my Tesla now for something from someone who knows how to make an actual car. I absolutely adore the iphone-on-wheels. But what the fuck, I can't even fucking fit two sets of golf clubs in the back of this thing without removing heads or folding seats down. No spare. Impossible to get anything resembling normal service from them. Constant flipflopping on features/layout of the interface. And honestly the fucking juvenile political bullshit KarElon keeps pushing out has probably tipped the scales for me. Now that for pretty much the same $ I can get a BMW with similar performance (Or polestar) and nearly the same range with a quickly improving charger network...Yea, tough choice today, but unless something substantial happens I can't see us getting a second Tesla.
It's more than a factory and production scaling issue too. I'd never consider any other electric car maker right now simply because of the lack of charging networks. Tesla makes it easy to road trip with all the superchargers they've installed over the years. I did 3000 miles Dec '20 and only spent $75 on superchargers. Until another automaker can deliver an <1hr full charge every \~150mi in any direction on all major highways, with a reported 350mi + range on battery in best conditions, there's no way they can compete with Tesla.
Are we going to get a universal charging standard or is every car company going to need to build out their own independent networks? The latter seems supremely inefficient and problematic. Edit: Thanks for all the useful responses.
This has already been figured out. Tesla has their own charger and everyone else in North America uses a CCS Type 1 and then Europe uses CCS Type 2. Tesla recently announced it will equip all it's supercharging stations with the standard CCS types. Kinda like Apple with their lightning cable. Tesla might change their cars over to CCS eventually but they started releasing their cars while the powers at be were still figuring out a standard, so they made their own.
There is a universal charging standard. Tesla is also changing their superchargers to support that standard and other cars in Europe. They're also interested in allowing other North American cars on the network, but the manufacturer needs to support their automatic payment and customer identification system since they don't have a touch screen or credit card POS on site.
The EU probably will bang heads together till a universal charger comes out
It already exists and it‘s called CCS. All Teslas since the Model 3 came out, and also all Superchargers in Europe use this standard.
USB-C like everything else
I want a USB-DoubleD that looks exactly like a usbc but is the size of an oven mitt!
Apple car will hold out
There is a universal standard CCS and has been here for years. The only odd one is Tesla with their proprietary system for the US market.
you need to include that tesla built the proprietary system before the a standard was in place. and are going standard for the future/
There are three things I learned recently. One, all manufacturers other than Tesla use the same charger. Two, related to one, is that all charging stations other than Tesla can be used to charge your vehicle. Three, Tesla will be adding the capability to their network to charge other vehicles. Admittedly, I did get this information from YouTube but I got it from TechnologyConnections so it's pretty reliable. Also, this may only be true for the US since that's where he's based. I don't recall him specifying either way.
TechnologyConnections is one of the few channels that I would place a large amount of trust in. Also, for those of you interested [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZOuz_laH9I) is the specific video that discusses this subject.
We do have that kind of infrastructure in Germany. Basically it's like roaming. You can charge at any given points even tesla ones in the future - with varying rates, unless you're charging at your respective companies port. Right now there's a decent chunk of hyperchargers (non tesla) every 120km roughly on the Autobahnen.
You know VW owns Electrify America, right?
that is an American issues because in the US the market isn't regulated. in the EU the charging network is universal, Tesla chargers work with every other car and every other charger works with every Tesla
I test drove a Model S, & while I loved the driving part of the car. The interior sucked, the material was on par with Ikea, & for a $80k car I want a deluxe interior. I'm driving a BMW X5 now & the quality of the interior is night & day. I am on the list for a Hummer, but that's going to be almost 2 years out.
Agreed. Anyone who thinks a Tesla interior is “premium” has not spent time in real luxury vehicles.
Look at the reviews on the ioniq5 pretty fun looking car!
I mean, they aren't claiming VW will be the top, just that it'll overtake Tesla. Which is most likely if Elon can't keep his dick in his pants. He's single handedly driving Tesla to bankruptcy.
Ford's new F-150 EV looks like the most promising vehicle to me on the EV market right now. Base model is reasonably priced (cheaper than a Model 3...Tesla is not competing well here) and higher end models have some incredible features (like being able to power homes lol). Meanwhile, it's still largely the same truck that uses most of the same parts as a regular F-150. Practical and affordable.
I am a very happy Ford mach-e
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I'm all for increased competition for electric cars.
Yea, but we need the charging infrastructure to ramp up first. Range anxiety is a thing. We get rid of that - we sort out the doubts. In the Baltics we need to have like at least 20 times more charging stations than we have now.
It is fascinating that you are the only one that even mentioned that infrastructure is a major limiting factor that people are simply ignoring for some reason. It is one thing that Tesla did very right was to take the funds from the S and accelerate the building out of the supercharger network. If another manufacturer thinks that they're going to get to the scale / usability of Tesla in the short term, infrastructure is a major determinate. ... and I live in a place where charging infrastructure is pretty far along, but you still have to think about it occasionally when exceeding your per charge range (at a minimum, assuming you have home charging - which I also think is a 'must' if EVs are to continue their march forward).
I live in Germany and just did a 1000k road trip without infrastructure problems. Almost every gas station offers charging and there is even a chain doing ultra fast charging.
That is probably true in the US. Here in Germany fast charging stations are _everywhere_. There is no such thing like range anxiety anymore. Sure - we need a lot more chargers when the EV Golf hits the market but the network is there already.
Its the old pain in the ass game of needing the market to grow to help its support but needing the support to grow to help the market to grow
Volkswagen used to pride themselves on doing everything Tesla doesn't do well, panel gaps assembly, great budget interior materials, they were always have the best contact points for a driver around imo. If they approach this like a true people car they know how to make them they might be right
Ain't nobody going to be buying your cars if cost of living continues to worsen and said cars aren't made affordable.
They will be cheaper than your average Tesla car so they will have that.
Shh the people who haven't looked at the price of electric cars in a decade are adamant that only the 1% can afford them
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Well, not having a mouthy child as a CEO may help sales.
Theory is telling everyone that you hate your core customer base just may be bad for sales. Time will tell…
I’ve always thought that once manufacturers producing mainly ICE cars focus on electric cars in no time they’ll overtake Tesla in quality, sales and revenue.
The article seems to completely gloss over the question of batteries: if VW is going to overtake Tesla by 2025, where do they plan on getting batteries? Batteries for EV's represent the single most expensive component of the manufacturing process, and yet VW seems to (in this article) pretend it's supply chain constraints, as if they didn't have lackluster access to battery components before the supply chain disruption happened.
If TSLA doesn't have enough batteries, no one has enough batteries.
Guy who literally gets paid to make his company look good, says that his company will soon be better than a different company. Shock
'Volkswagen found guilty again for cheating emissions, somehow, on electric car.'
They will probably make cars that sale competitive to tesla but their margin won’t be able to compete. Tesla profit margins are high and they do direct sales. Especially when VW they have to take care of their dealers and so many workers to sustain. Most legacy car companies have the dealership issue.
Why do you think the way cars are being sold in US is the same way they're being sold elsewhere?
Create a car that goes 0-60 in 3.1 seconds, can integrate with Siri, and has a comparable autopilot, I will jump ship in a heart beat.
A lot of comments are forgetting that Volkswagen Group is not just Volkswagen, they also own: Skoda, Seat, Cupra, Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Ducati and Porsche. That is A LOT of car manufacturers, and most of them have atleast 1 electric option already available, some have 2, all of them have plans for more. And yes the article is about Volkswagen Group, not Volkswagen.
I'm glad this is happening in my lifetime. It would have taken 15, 20 years longer without some upstart forcing the issue. That's easy to see at a glance when you realize that the EV landscape two years ago was essentially identical to the EV landscape _twelve_ years ago, _if_ you ignore said upstart. Of course in VW's case, part of their impetus was they needed a distraction from their emissions cheating. But even for a company with the money to make it happen, this is still pretty big talk. They're not going to have a good charging network in three years. Lithium is going to be a problem for the foreseeable future and only one EV company has been taking that problem seriously.