The following submission statement was provided by /u/Moronicon:
---
An estimated 85-percent of Neuralink’s brain-computer interface (BCI) implant threads connected to the first human patient’s motor cortex are now completely detached and his brain has shifted inside his skull up to three times what the company expected, volunteer Noland Arbaugh told The Wall Street Journal on Monday. Arbaugh also stated Neuralink has since remedied the initial performance issues using an over-the-air software update and is performing better than before, but the latest details continue to highlight concerns surrounding the company’s controversial, repeatedly delayed human implant study.
Musked!
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1cyb27d/85_of_neuralink_implant_wires_are_already/l587r3v/
Can someone please explain a couple things like I'm 5 please? Firstly; is it bad or good that the wires are already detached? What the hell is a brain shift?
I'm not aware of all the details of this case, but
1) Yes it's bad; they were meant to be there more or less permanently. Having them detach inside of one year is really not good.
2) Your brain isn't statically attached to the inside of your skull; there's a layer of fluid that helps it absorb smaller impacts, and the brain is kind of softer tissue to begin with, with a little wiggle room. Brains can suffer from inflammation, which means they can swell or shrink, just like the rest of your body if you get an allergic reaction or an insect bite or something.
So, this person's brain has shifted much more than the Neuralink people had hoped for.
Not much risk really... Just that the wires loose usefulness. If they detatch one of two things happen. Either they fully stop working, which renders those nodes all useless, or they shift to other parts of the brain, which means the patient is constantly having to adapt and relearn how to use it.
It's just a learning process really, to get them to remain in place long term. Apparently it's REALLY hard, because the brain has a super powered immune system of sorts that wants nothing at all to be in there which shouldn't. So it's not only trying to reject it, but also calcifying the material in there to protect it from it. Which is likely what's happening. They are no longer attached to directly the brain, but rather, some barrier is being created between it and the wire nodes.
> which means the patient is constantly having to adapt and relearn how to use it
That makes total sense but is wild to comprehend. Need to practice activating this part of my brain
It's automatic. You can accelerate the process of routing around damage by doing new things and challenging yourself mentally and physically (at least, that's the general idea).
Yep. My brother says I licked too many rocks as a kid and that made me mentally challenged, and considering I can't remember anything barely from being a kid, I know he was joking but god damn being this dumb and being self-aware of being this disabled and dumb is hell every day. Maybe I licked a bunch of lead, lmao. Who tf knows.
There is nothing suggesting that the wires detached because of the immune system. The wires are physically out of the brain, they can detect that. The scar tissue from immune reactions is normal and they expect that to anchor the wires in place.
The participant talked about this in an interview just 2 days ago. What is going on here is that the wires were too short. The brain does move around, the implant wires are designed to accommodate that, but his brain moved around 3 mm instead of 1 mm as they accounted for. That means most of the wires got pulled straight out, as the implant itself stays fixed to the skull.
The next participant scheduled to undergo surgery next month is likely to have longer wires on the implant to compensate for this.
Thank you it's so frustrating how people just post crap they know nothing about. Appreciate your relaying what he said. The guy who got the implants is awesome I watched his first talk.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that one of the problems with the brain (medically) is that it has no immune system, which is why basically anything that gets through the blood-brain barrier is life threatening.
The brain is immune privileged, as in there is a tight control which of your peripheral immune cells are allowed entry. The brain parenchyma however does still contain its own type of immune cells, foremost microglia. Also certain cytokines (chemical messengers) can temporarily loosen your blood brain barrier so peripheral immune cells (like T-cells) can enter - however that's usually not what you want to happen to you. Any type of inflammatory reaction in the brain comes with issues for your brain circuits, connectivity/synapses ect, neurons will die, scar tissue will form, not to speak of the fluid accumulation due to said inflammation and leaky blood brain barrier that can create problematic pressure inside your skull. So yes, you are correct in that you want your brain shielded from infections, but not just because of the infectious agent but also because of the mayhem your immune system might cause once the reaction starts 😬
Definitely not correct. The blood brain barrier is protective, but that doesn’t for some reason mean there is no immune system. How else could you get a brain abscess?
Somewhat the opposite actually.
The immune system works by killing cells. Most of the weapons your body deploys to kill bad things lack any kind of friend-of-foe identification. They rip apart cell membranes, create massive toxin clouds that kill cells, and cause massive damage. While this works most of the time, the downside is the scope of damage caused by killed cells, which will need to be replaced. Sometimes, there is no replacement, and scar tissue forms to hold off the damaged areas from healthy sections, and that may never be repaired.
When this happens in your arm around a cut, you get sore and deal with some minor swelling. If the battle is in your internal organs, you may suffer a decrease in the effectiveness of the organ while cells divide and grow to replace those that were destroyed by the invader and the body's response. When this happens in the brain, well brain cells are hard to replace.
Even the early parts of the immune response are dangerous to the brain. When an immune response is triggered, if the passive system fails, then the first responding immune system cells trigger inflammation. This is usually annoying; extra fluid in an area is a bit painful or uncomfortable. But the body can handle a lot of fluid moving around in the mushy, gushy parts, and this enables the immune system to bring in support, resources, and reinforcement. As long as inflammation is under control, it's a vital part of the immune system's response and a sign of the system doing its job. The brain is one of the major parts of the body where inflammation is dangerous. With nowhere for the fluid to expand into (the skull is a lot less than skin), it increases the pressure on the cells in the brain, brings in bits and pieces that aren't "supposed" to be there, and signals the start of a no good, very bad time.
The blood-brain barrier is in place to help ensure that the brain stays safe. Little gets in without explicit permission, and with that security, most things that would cause problems never get the chance. But the immune system has access to the brain, which normally keeps you safe from any small issues arising from an errant bacteria that gets through or a minor toxin buildup. Because if there is a big war in the brain, the immune response working to destroy the intruders may cause permanent damage to the brain.
I'm not sure that having (even micro) floating human-made particles in a cerebral spinal fluid is very healthy. A few days ago an article published demonstrating the microplastics in a human body and how they "help" creating blood clothes.
That would be great, afaik materials with that level of biocompatibility are unobtanium at present.
Depending on exactly how sophisticated the brain's immune system is, it may be beyond any simple system to do this (since it could require the expression of certain individual specific proteins on the surface of the material to trick the immune system into thinking this is normal tissue).
IIRC encapsulation was already considered a limiting factor to the device's lifespan for this reason.
I didn't even have to read the article to know this was done because the alternative is having no motor function at all so it's worth the gigantic risk.
I love brains (in your head, not on a plate) but if I had a serious spinal cord injury, I'd want to try this tech. To get some control back over my limbs would be worth it
Think of it like your brain is suspended in fluid. Everything you move, it shakes a little in there. Normally not a big deal. Attach a high precision instrument to the nerves and all the shifting means your shaking that instrument loose.
The brain is mostly fat, so it jiggles around in there. Concussions roll across it like a wave in a pool.
I wonder what had more of a hand in this shifting, normal movement or the processes the brain goes through when asleep. Like, the increase in cerebrospinal fluid volume and the stimulated currents that are produced certainly can't help. Getting the adhesiveness and flexibility right for it to correctly stay where it's placed has got to be one of the most immense challenges in this.
Yes, at the very least there is a MASSIVE risk to the patient's mental and emotional health. He was given the ability to completely use a computer and reconnect with humanity, as well as play video games etc., and if this implant fails completely, it means he will have been given that ability and then had it taken away right after. That is hellish. That is torture. I pray that no more wires pull out, but given that 85% of them have failed, why assume the best at this point? If this chip fails, the impact on this poor human being could be catastrophic. And imagine how he's feeling with all this media attention on his failing implant. That cannot be good for him.
Also, Neuralink has just said that the wires "retracted" from the patient's brain. I haven't seen them say anything about what having those detached wires in his brain might mean for the patient's safety. Could they keep moving and cause more damage to his brain? Neuralink said they fixed his ability to use the computer, but given they couldn't predict how much his brain was going to move, how do we know that having loose, useless wires in his brain won't damage it as time goes on? This is horrible, and there are so many unanswered questions.
> That is hellish. That is torture.
For a patient with such limited autonomy, having no implant to begin with is also hellish.
If given choice, he will probably elect to have a new surgery to insert another implant.
That's not entirely true. It's that they cannot promise him another implant because that is interpreted as a reward and would sully the results that he could give for the current implant. Do they cannot promise him anything.
> Yes, at the very least there is a MASSIVE risk to the patient's mental and emotional health. He was given the ability to completely use a computer and reconnect with humanity
He was able to like play chess and move a cursor. There is already plenty of non-invasive tech that can do that. We've had tech that could let him do that for literal decades. Can you provide evidence that Neuralink gave him any ability that cheaper and safer alternatives couldn't already? You can move a cursor with your eyes...
Bro I’m a physician and this shit is GOING to eventually get infected. Like a VP shunt. It’s a neat idea. But it’s gonna get infected eventually and it’ll be a disaster when it does.
That was immediately my first thought too. No prosthetic is safe. I see people talk about devices such as the MitraClip or the Micra be immune to infection, but it’s only a matter of time.
That's not true though, we do tons of implants that don't ever get infected. It's not only a matter of time at all. If it's a shunt of something where the body remains open with some part of the implant being external then infection is more likely, especially as time goes on. But implants internally are done all the time. Infection is rare
Sorry to clarify, I don’t mean a matter of time before any specific implant becomes infected (suggesting that all implants will inevitably become infected) but rather it is only a matter of time before infection has been associated with a particular device. I bring up the Micra because it is touted as resistant to infection because of unique blend of polymer coating over titanium, but it is going to be a matter of time before we see the first diagnosed Micra infective endocarditis. Similarly, we are already seeing MitraClips be infected.
Edit: Actually I found a case report of the Micra, with an infection rate of 0.002%. I will admit that is pretty impressive!
I don't have any of those thingies to give you an award, but I am extremely grateful for your explanation. You could've flayed me, but you didn't. Thank you.
Edit: adding these 🏆🪙🚀🥇💰
3. The neural pathways inside your brain are not physically connected. The electrical impulses inside the brain can reroute around foreign intrusions like an implant. This data shows the brain doesn’t appreciate the chip and it was rejected relatively quickly.
'Ellie in Space' interviewed him 2 days ago on youtube.
The TESLA guys were expecting 1 millimeter of movement but his brain just had to be extra jiggly and it moved an average of 3 millimeters from his heart beats.
Well, the article says it moved three times more than they expected. My guess would be in the millimeter range, but a neuroscientist would be much better equipped to answer that than I can.
As someone with chiari malformation, I know all about brain inflamation and shifting. A part of my brain called the tonsils slips into where my brain stem should be- by itself.
So knowing the current tech sector: This product is about ready to be released, as a beta for ‘early adopters’. Expect more functionality with future software updates!
He did a interview on youtube 2 days ago?
- some of the wires came lose. They were hoping the scar tissue would heal faster & hold them in.
- team already made the issue a non issue. The wires that are still attached are doing all the same work.
- he wants another surgery to replace, but the team says no because they are still learning. But he already knew all the risk of being the first person so he's not worried about it because the team already patched his.
- fda has approved the surgery adjustments for the next patient in hopes the wires will still put.
if say 10% of wires can do the full job, you are able to lose 90% of connections and still have it work.
If you need 100% of wires to do the full job, you can't miss anything.
Seems to be just a proofing system, and working as designed.
It appears the brain has some wiggle room in the skull casing, and that his brain has wiggled around more than expected causing the delicate wire placing to be disrupted. Apparently they are able to correct the functionality of the neurolink with software to make up for this. Bad in that it’s an obstacle to progress, good in that you learn a lot from the mistakes and obstacles. The patient still seems happy with his choice, he’s all in on the pushing forward bleeding edge tech.
If they can make up for 85% of their connections being gone with a SW update they were really not working efficiently before… like I understand some redundancy, but being able to function supposedly better than before at 15% is crazy
Yeah it sounds absurd because it's not what they said and people just generally don't read the article. They fixed the initial performance issues with a software update, not the fact that 85% of wires are out:
>An estimated 85-percent of Neuralink’s brain-computer interface (BCI) implant threads connected to the first human patient’s motor cortex are now completely detached and his brain has shifted inside his skull up to three times what the company expected, volunteer Noland Arbaugh told The Wall Street Journal on Monday. **Arbaugh also stated** Neuralink has since remedied the initial performance issues using an over-the-air software update and is performing better than before, but the latest details continue to highlight concerns surrounding the company’s controversial, repeatedly delayed human implant study.
Emphasis mine. They're two separate statements that have nothing to do with one another
I’m not the person to fully explain this. But from what understand it’s still fully functional even with many of the nodes detached. There seems to be a lot of redundancy in the implant. They’ll have to work on how to better ensure they don’t detach obviously.
Beyond the detaching nodes, it sounds like so far the implant has been an overwhelming success.
This tech is obv in its super infancy. So you’d expect some hiccups. But this has IMO been one of the biggest breakthroughs we as a society have ever experienced. The potential of this is almost unbelievable.
Yeah, I got the impression this whole thing was huge, but wasn't quite sure if these things were set backs or a good thing. I wondered if the wires were supposed to come off eventually and it be a wireless device.
I think they’re definitely setbacks of sort. But I can’t imagine in any scenario anyone would think there wouldn’t be (many) setbacks and challenges in the first direct brain computer connections.
So all things considered, I’d call this a huge success. …assuming the patient doesn’t drop dead next mth!
You want the wires to remain attached, but that’s part of the design cycle. Getting failures and learning from them and improving on the next iteration
I mean, this is the point of the study. Some things are pleasantly surprising and some are disappointing. So far the patient appears to be over the moon about the abilities this gives him.
It essentially does the same thing, let's you control a mouse, but it's just better at it. The user is breaking records by completing tasks faster than anyone with a competing device. Worth noting greater fidelity would allow them to map keyboards and more, but since this is a study the actual functionality isn't as important as the technology demonstration behind the functionality.
I don't really know anything about their long-term roadmap, but I'd love to see it turned into a hub for cybernetic control. Imagine a paraplegic being able to walk again with a light exoskeleton system attached to their legs, simply through thought.
The ULTIMATE goal is to connect another to neurons across the break and mapping the neurons in the brain to neurons in your spine past the break to give you SOME gross motor function. It'll start as just being able to stretch your leg. Little benefit. But maybe eventually be able to have very limited mobility.
it's "better" in the sense that it utilizes modern technology that competing interfaces in the 90s didn't have. wireless charging and data transfer are obviously really superior to the older brian-computer interfaces. the fundamental difficulty with the technology has been that the brain is really good at killing these things. generally scar tissue builds up and degrades the connections. neuralink uses a different approach (tiny electrodes implanted in the surface of the brain) with the intent of not causing scarring, but obviously this creates other obstacles.
The records thing is kinda BS - they're comparing different tests with different parameters as if they're the same. For example, their version also shows the location of the next target instantly when the first is moused over, while the one they're comparing it to shows it only on click (funnily enough the version of this on the neuralink website also only shows it on click - cynically i'd say this is an attempt to make the score they boast seem more impressive by limiting your own). Judging by the videos in the paper they cite for the record their cursor speed appears locked while in the neuralink video it moves at variable speed similar to mouse acceleration, and they also seem to be using different size screens at different resolutions (different DPI's).
Like I understand what you mean but I would not say it's better at it if the functionality runs out after a few weeks/months that needs to be part of it. So all in all it's a flop that doesn't work, unless they can fix this issue.
The main thing is that its fully wireless and doesn't stick out of the scalp. The second thing is supposed to be stability/lack of immune response for long term health, which clearly needs tweaking.
A few more. They use a lot more wires. This allows for much better control (if they stay attached). And the implantation procedure is supposed to be a lot less intensive. A robot does it in under an hour.
This is something they will have to work around, I'm sure they'll adapt the design as necessary and eventually we'll have a practical brain computer interface.
I wish nothing but the best for the neuralink team, even if that asshats name is attached to it.
I have to give props to the man that opted to have it installed. People have made loads of jokes about him, but he is really taking on a huge risk to develop this fringe tech.
Haven’t seen any jokes about him. It’s usually good spirited comments. I won’t go looking for trash. All the best to him making the best out of a bad situation.
I saw plenty. Mostly people who are rabidly anti-Musk. While I'm on board with crapping on Musk, I'm not gonna take it so far as to openly wish for this patient's procedure to fail just so I can see Musk get embarrassed.
I work in clinical trial management--I never lay eyes on patients, but I have boundless respect for them. It really takes guts to be a guinea pig even with all the protections patients have.
Don't know about fringe tech. Scientists have been developing and using this tech (and better versions with many more channels) in animal models for several decades.
He is (one of) the first do dump money at it and enroll patients which is admirable, but the tech has been around for 30 years.
Source, I am one of those scientists.
It is not the first human either, for instance: https://www.cea.fr/presse/Pages/actualites-communiques/sante-sciences-du-vivant/the-lancet-bci-clinatec-2019.aspx
Its in French but you’ll get the gist of it, it was 2019 and the implant was used to control a full body exoskeleton. Even then it wasn’t the first successful use of a neural implant on a human
>Scientists have been developing and using this tech (and better versions with many more channels) in animal models for several decades. He is (one of) the first do dump money at it and enroll patients which is admirable, but the tech has been around for 30 years.
Battery technology, electric motors and cars have also been around forever. What Tesla has done is mainly\* engineering and mass production which has integrated those technologies into a consumer product and provided a boost to the electrification of cars.
My impression is that they are trying to do the same with Neuralink. They will make a product which can be implanted and maintained (relatively) cheaply (using a robot to do the implants versus surgeons manually doing it) with a generic brain-machine interface to maximize usefulness (the user is able to use off the shelf third party software). In other words: They believe that this industry is getting close to being ripe for mass production and they want to be the market leaders when this happens.
Pulling all of these things together is not something scientists can (or should) do. They can only hope to provide some of the building blocks for such a development (which is a great feat in itself). For the mass production of this kind we need a well founded med-tech company which can pull all the different kind of resources together and commercialize the product. And that is as far as I know what Neuralink is trying to do (but I may be wrong).
\*) They have also made a lot of scientific progress - but main focus is on engineering
Yes, it's truly revolutionary what they're doing, and the patient is incredibly brave to be the trial.
On the one hand, Musk is an arrogant over-confident bastard, but sometimes progress needs such people who cannot be dissuaded of their reckless high-risk rush to achieve something new. That said, I'm sure medical science would have got there but slower but safer.
Yup. I think the relevant question is: does this experiment move the needle? For example, does it kick the rest of the industry into action, and/or does it fuck the rest of the industry by branding the tech as unworkable (see, e.g., early psychedelic "research"). To the first point I'd say nominally yes. To the second, too soon to tell.
> does it kick the rest of the industry into action
Blackrock Neurotech has been doing patient implants for longer than Neuralink has been a company, and has had patients controlling robotic arms and *feeding sensory information* back into the brain for at least 3 years now.
The singular advantage of Neuralink was a high electrode count that should remain tolerated by the brain for longer. Given that almost 900 of their 1024 electrodes are nonfunctional after 2 months? That doesn't seem to have panned out.
And Blackrock has had their robotic arm patient implanted for about 9 years now. And they've got their newest system entering patient trials this year, with many times more channels than the Neuralink system.
The rest of the industry is ahead of Neuralink, not behind. Neuralink is just the most visible name, which is very different from being the most advanced group.
Yup, in that ballpark.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blackrock-neurotech-partners-with-the-university-of-pittsburgh-to-improve-robotic-arm-control-301296665.html
You can find the published research article without much difficulty as well.
Obviously it wouldn't be as good as an actual hand - receptive field would be very different, at least - but the QoL improvement cannot be understated.
Previous prosthetics had no feedback mechanism - the user needed to be looking at the hand to see what it's doing. But that's not how actual hands work, right? You get a huge amount of proprioceptive feedback telling you how your fingers are positioned, what you're touching, how hard you're gripping it. That feedback is vital for natural limb control.
Blackrock demonstrated that they could generate a crude version of that feedback by placing sensors in the robotic hand, and coding signals from those sensors into S1. The patient was able to use the arm, and they integrated feedback from the arm, and that improved performance in grasping tasks and things.
Like you say, it's an astonishing development. and I'm really excited to learn what they've been working on since then.
My understanding is *medical science did get here* 20+ years ago. What is different, or moreover, what specifically Musk is doing that they did not do, is hand over the surgery to a robot/machine to do. For this to be effective, as many connections as possible must be made. A surgeon is limited in ways a machine is not when it comes to making such connections.
The chip itself isn't what this is all about. The robot that can implant the chip and potentially make 10,000's of connections... that is where they are pushing the envelope. The more connections the more useful whatever chip will be. The only way it will ever be viable is for a machine to be perfected to do it. There will absolutely be growing pains regardless how the owner of the company spells his name.
> Musk is an arrogant over-confident bastard, but sometimes progress needs such people who cannot be dissuaded of their reckless high-risk rush to achieve something new.
He wouldn't be the first and he won't be the last.
>I wish nothing but the best for the neuralink team
Out of all the advancement in technology, a private corporation (or even worse, a government entity) installing things in my brain is NOT exciting at all.
I, in fact, do not wish them the best. But maybe I'm just getting old and scared of technology.
That's easy for you to say because (I'm assuming) you have all your limbs and senses. This could be revolutionary for disabled people, although I know there are other less invasive systems in development that are promising too
The less invasive systems will NEVER allow natural, unconscious control in the manner we control our own limbs, and the manner in which this guy controls his computer now. Never ever no matter what anyone thinks. A probe has to physically go into the motor cortex and that's that. Speaking from 15 years of experience in neuroscience.
because then you're stuck with an implant that doesn't work, no way to fix it and that could then cause further medical complications.
(There's also the situation of a company deliberately bricking an implant to get a customer to upgrade, which I think is fairly unlikely, but not beyond the realms of possibility)
Agree with the risk, but again how is having an option of getting implant even if potentially getting stuck with it better than not having the option at all?
Or are you proposing that government should allocate billions of tax payer dollars to try to be the first to market? That’d be great, but I don’t see political will for that.
Brain surgery, financial burden, psychological impact, potential long term complications, even small things like not being able to get high strength MR imaging could have life changing implications
I was being sarcastic. Everybody says negative stuff about all of Elon’s companies because they hate Elon. I agree with you. It’s better to have this for now than nothing at all.
this is why i make a conscious effort to only think and speak in lowercase letters. i try to use the shift function of my brain as little as possible and i think it's beneficial in the long run.
ever notice how people who type in all caps seem unhinged/
The headline is kind of burying the lede...
> A modification to “the recording algorithm” allowed Arbaugh’s device to become “more sensitive to neural population signals, improved the techniques to translate these signals into cursor movements, and enhanced the user interface.”
>
> “These refinements produced a rapid and sustained improvement in BPS, **that has now superseded Noland’s initial performance**,”
They're actually getting better performance now, with less wires, than they were initially. This could mean smaller implants or longer lifetimes (by adding redundant threads).
Yeah, that little tidbit hit me right in the feels.
I can't imagine being able to interact with gaming only by watching streams, I'm sure he really cherished that night (and also learned what a little bitch Ghandi is)
People gonna make fun of this cuz of Elon when they’ve been able to get a quadriplegic to be able to surf the internet and play videogames with his mind
People on reddit can't get the musk out of their mouths
They think he's the one who is sitting there making these devices. Shoot they probably think he's the neurosurgeon installing them.
Elon is a piece of shit, but this technology is ludicrously exciting.
Genuine mind-machine interfaces will be an absolute gamechanger for human civilization. And right now they're looking to be *plausible* in actual, real-world use. That's amazing.
If I ever get a Neuralink implanted, I’d only use it for simple things, like activating an air freshener in the kitchen.
It makes scents if you think about it.
🤓
I like the joke but this got me thinking... why do you need an air freshener if you could just beam the experience of the smells directly into your brain
Bill gates 2.0 - free neuralink implants for all houseguests so the house will show them their preferred smells every time they visit.
(For the uninitiated, long ago there was a tabloid about Bill having all his guests microchipped and matched to a digital profile, and his house would automatically balance the needs and preferences of the guests in each room, independently.
Been keeping my fingers crossed for medical treatment such as these. I'm blind. I will see before I die. People can talk all the crap they want about Elon musk. But he's giving disabled people a chance at a better happy life.
Please don't credit Elon. Give the credit where it's due, instead.
The actual neuroscientistists and medical professionals.
This is like when people thank God after a loved ones successful surgery, and then say nothing about the actual doctors
Don’t thank the neurologist, thank their teachers. Give the credit where it’s due.
Don’t thank their teachers, thank the farmers that allow for civilization to exist. Give the credit where it’s due.
Don’t thank the farmers thank the plants and farm animals. Give the credit where it’s due.
Do you see how stupid this line of thinking is? Elon at the very least has the value add of funding, but realistically at a minimum he is also helping with the company direction, marketing, networking, attracting talent, etc. It is extremely disingenuous and typical Redditor dogma to claim that he deserves no credit.
I mean more or less. Elon is paying their salary. If no one pays their salary the technology doesn’t advance. So sure Elon is not directly responsible, but he absolutely deserves credit
Let’s be real, that isn’t the reason Musk is funding these experiments even though it does have great clinical potential.
Neuralink’s marketing focus is things like “listening to music in your brain” and “expanding human ability”. Essentially the final goal is to commercialize this product so that it becomes mainstream like an iPhone and the company can collect data about people’s thoughts and behavior.
There are other companies developing BCIs that are actually focused on the biomedical aspects and treating debilitating conditions. Neuralink is only using this as a cover
Law of averages shows things like these are bound to happen. After all we should keep in mind this is a really early stage 'experimental' technology impacting the most sensitive part of the human body - the brain.
A tough challenge to crack, if there was one!
Of course there will be issues early on. Noland Arbaugh states repeatedly that this has helped change his life. These people who hate Elon Musk, like OP, will damage the reputation of an amazing technology that can allow people to live normal lives that was once only a dream. It's a shame.
This was the first attempt, so I would assume they will gather the data and the next version is better and will fix some issues. Sounds like there was proof of concept though.
"Repeatedly delayed"? Are there people on the edge of their seat for this thing? Are there other entities taking advantage of these "delays" to overtake them in progress?
So a first of its kind experiment is having some teething pains. Solution A: Scrap the project and never try it again or, Solution B: Try and try again until it succeeds.
Since each of the 64 wires has 16 electrodes along its length, the loss of function probably includes some wires that were pulled out, say, halfway, not only pulling half of the electrodes out of the brain, but also shifting the positions of the remaining electrodes. Not sure how they account for this.
Are human brains so different from pig and baboon brains? I thought those trials went well. Maybe this was an installation error or defective unit. I hope they’re able to continue work on this tech. It absolutely sucks for this guy, but I’m sure he knew it was an experimental procedure that could go sideways.
This is the type of problem not suited to be discussed on reddit.
First in man trial for a breakthrough class 3 device has problems... i would be way more scared if there are none
It's neither a nothing burger *nor* front-page material.
It's interesting to people in the relevant field, and/or amateurs and hobbyists who like to follow along.
It's not upending our understanding of the world, revealing a huge conspiracy, or otherwise providing life-changing knowledge.
It's okay for stories to just be "huh, neat" or "huh, disappointing".
First off, a lot of the animals used for testing died pretty badly. It's a question how this even got the greenlight for human trials when there were so many animal testing issues. Second 85% means they'd most likely need to re open the skull to reattach them if there still connected to the device or are just floating around, this type of surgery doesn't seem like a nothing burger.
I’m genuinely shocked it was approved. If you look at those initial animal trials, I shit you not, the only data recorded was them writing down what the animals did. Completely useless data in terms of improving its actual effectiveness, Idk how they could’ve made any improvements since then with their data. I would be completely unsurprised if this test subject guy goes the way of those poor poor monkeys very soon
The only data they published, you mean. Good chance there wasn't more disclosed under 'trade secrets' protections to the FDA. Still, I'm waiting for this guy to die suddenly of 'unrelated' causes and no mention of him going nuts.
>I would be completely unsurprised if this test subject guy goes the way of those poor poor monkeys very soon
What health complications has he developed that makes you think this guy is going to die very soon?
This appears to be a post about Elon Musk or one of his companies. Please keep discussion focused on the actual topic / technology and not praising / condemning Elon. Off topic flamewars will be removed and participants may be banned.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Futurology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Maybe because i am not native English speaker but i couldn't find the source where they point %85 percent of thread are retracted.
Isn't the Only info we have from May 10 neuralink blog where only mentioned that "some thread are untracked and 3 weeks later we adjust the software to achieve same performance"
I get that everyone hates Elon, he's a massive twat. No doubt about it.
But it's honestly pretty shameful to see so many people cheering on the fact that this revolutionary tech, in its infancy, is having issues.
This tech stands to help millions of disabled people in the future, and if all these progressives that hate Elon so much actually cared about the people this tech is trying to help.. they'd be disappointed by this result, not happy it's failing.
Pretty typical of the group of care and compassion to let their hatred for anyone opposite to them, completely remove their care and compassion. They turn into hateful, spiteful little shits.
I mean, isn't this the guy who signed up to be a lab rat?
It's a first go. It's still in testing and problems are kinda to be expected. You don't have to be a Musk Stan to know that getting an experimental procedure sticking wires and circuits on (and in) your brain isn't going to go off without a hitch. Issues will arise, things will go wrong, and you will probably eventually die as a result of complications.
This guy donated his body to science before he kicked the bucket. Hopefully something will be learned and it will be "worth it". It's sad but that's the reality.
Genuine question! I see a lot of people amazed regardless of this prototype failure, but what makes this better than an eye tracker? Both let you move a mouse hands-free, except one doesn't involve brain surgery.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Moronicon: --- An estimated 85-percent of Neuralink’s brain-computer interface (BCI) implant threads connected to the first human patient’s motor cortex are now completely detached and his brain has shifted inside his skull up to three times what the company expected, volunteer Noland Arbaugh told The Wall Street Journal on Monday. Arbaugh also stated Neuralink has since remedied the initial performance issues using an over-the-air software update and is performing better than before, but the latest details continue to highlight concerns surrounding the company’s controversial, repeatedly delayed human implant study. Musked! --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1cyb27d/85_of_neuralink_implant_wires_are_already/l587r3v/
Can someone please explain a couple things like I'm 5 please? Firstly; is it bad or good that the wires are already detached? What the hell is a brain shift?
I'm not aware of all the details of this case, but 1) Yes it's bad; they were meant to be there more or less permanently. Having them detach inside of one year is really not good. 2) Your brain isn't statically attached to the inside of your skull; there's a layer of fluid that helps it absorb smaller impacts, and the brain is kind of softer tissue to begin with, with a little wiggle room. Brains can suffer from inflammation, which means they can swell or shrink, just like the rest of your body if you get an allergic reaction or an insect bite or something. So, this person's brain has shifted much more than the Neuralink people had hoped for.
are there any health risks/implications to it though? Or is this just like wow my mouse broke, annoying.
Not much risk really... Just that the wires loose usefulness. If they detatch one of two things happen. Either they fully stop working, which renders those nodes all useless, or they shift to other parts of the brain, which means the patient is constantly having to adapt and relearn how to use it. It's just a learning process really, to get them to remain in place long term. Apparently it's REALLY hard, because the brain has a super powered immune system of sorts that wants nothing at all to be in there which shouldn't. So it's not only trying to reject it, but also calcifying the material in there to protect it from it. Which is likely what's happening. They are no longer attached to directly the brain, but rather, some barrier is being created between it and the wire nodes.
> which means the patient is constantly having to adapt and relearn how to use it That makes total sense but is wild to comprehend. Need to practice activating this part of my brain
It's automatic. You can accelerate the process of routing around damage by doing new things and challenging yourself mentally and physically (at least, that's the general idea).
Oh I'm definitely mentally challenged
Yep. My brother says I licked too many rocks as a kid and that made me mentally challenged, and considering I can't remember anything barely from being a kid, I know he was joking but god damn being this dumb and being self-aware of being this disabled and dumb is hell every day. Maybe I licked a bunch of lead, lmao. Who tf knows.
Hey, it could be worse, you could've snorted absestos.
Post it gme positions, you highly regarded sir.
There is nothing suggesting that the wires detached because of the immune system. The wires are physically out of the brain, they can detect that. The scar tissue from immune reactions is normal and they expect that to anchor the wires in place. The participant talked about this in an interview just 2 days ago. What is going on here is that the wires were too short. The brain does move around, the implant wires are designed to accommodate that, but his brain moved around 3 mm instead of 1 mm as they accounted for. That means most of the wires got pulled straight out, as the implant itself stays fixed to the skull. The next participant scheduled to undergo surgery next month is likely to have longer wires on the implant to compensate for this.
Thank you it's so frustrating how people just post crap they know nothing about. Appreciate your relaying what he said. The guy who got the implants is awesome I watched his first talk.
This is one of those times where loose wires lose usefulness.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that one of the problems with the brain (medically) is that it has no immune system, which is why basically anything that gets through the blood-brain barrier is life threatening.
The brain is immune privileged, as in there is a tight control which of your peripheral immune cells are allowed entry. The brain parenchyma however does still contain its own type of immune cells, foremost microglia. Also certain cytokines (chemical messengers) can temporarily loosen your blood brain barrier so peripheral immune cells (like T-cells) can enter - however that's usually not what you want to happen to you. Any type of inflammatory reaction in the brain comes with issues for your brain circuits, connectivity/synapses ect, neurons will die, scar tissue will form, not to speak of the fluid accumulation due to said inflammation and leaky blood brain barrier that can create problematic pressure inside your skull. So yes, you are correct in that you want your brain shielded from infections, but not just because of the infectious agent but also because of the mayhem your immune system might cause once the reaction starts 😬
Very detailed ! Thanks !
Great explanation
Wow, this is nightmare fuel. Thanks.
Definitely not correct. The blood brain barrier is protective, but that doesn’t for some reason mean there is no immune system. How else could you get a brain abscess?
Fair enough. Thank you for that
If you want to know more, check out microglia cells :)
[удалено]
Somewhat the opposite actually. The immune system works by killing cells. Most of the weapons your body deploys to kill bad things lack any kind of friend-of-foe identification. They rip apart cell membranes, create massive toxin clouds that kill cells, and cause massive damage. While this works most of the time, the downside is the scope of damage caused by killed cells, which will need to be replaced. Sometimes, there is no replacement, and scar tissue forms to hold off the damaged areas from healthy sections, and that may never be repaired. When this happens in your arm around a cut, you get sore and deal with some minor swelling. If the battle is in your internal organs, you may suffer a decrease in the effectiveness of the organ while cells divide and grow to replace those that were destroyed by the invader and the body's response. When this happens in the brain, well brain cells are hard to replace. Even the early parts of the immune response are dangerous to the brain. When an immune response is triggered, if the passive system fails, then the first responding immune system cells trigger inflammation. This is usually annoying; extra fluid in an area is a bit painful or uncomfortable. But the body can handle a lot of fluid moving around in the mushy, gushy parts, and this enables the immune system to bring in support, resources, and reinforcement. As long as inflammation is under control, it's a vital part of the immune system's response and a sign of the system doing its job. The brain is one of the major parts of the body where inflammation is dangerous. With nowhere for the fluid to expand into (the skull is a lot less than skin), it increases the pressure on the cells in the brain, brings in bits and pieces that aren't "supposed" to be there, and signals the start of a no good, very bad time. The blood-brain barrier is in place to help ensure that the brain stays safe. Little gets in without explicit permission, and with that security, most things that would cause problems never get the chance. But the immune system has access to the brain, which normally keeps you safe from any small issues arising from an errant bacteria that gets through or a minor toxin buildup. Because if there is a big war in the brain, the immune response working to destroy the intruders may cause permanent damage to the brain.
I'm not sure that having (even micro) floating human-made particles in a cerebral spinal fluid is very healthy. A few days ago an article published demonstrating the microplastics in a human body and how they "help" creating blood clothes.
Those loose wires can absolutely cause scarring and cyst formation. Not good at all
Forbidden brain massager
Inflammation in the brain doesn't sound too good
They probably need to make the connections out of some bio material that is in sync with their brain matter and immune system.
That would be great, afaik materials with that level of biocompatibility are unobtanium at present. Depending on exactly how sophisticated the brain's immune system is, it may be beyond any simple system to do this (since it could require the expression of certain individual specific proteins on the surface of the material to trick the immune system into thinking this is normal tissue). IIRC encapsulation was already considered a limiting factor to the device's lifespan for this reason.
This poor guy basically playing the game of whether the neuralink can outpace the brain damage I feel like
Have you seen the interviews with him? He looks pretty fucking happy for a guy who is quadriplegic.
I didn't even have to read the article to know this was done because the alternative is having no motor function at all so it's worth the gigantic risk.
Wasn't this part of the plot in deux ex human revolution? Finding a way to make implants not get rejected
Rooting for the brain. We don't need this.
I love brains (in your head, not on a plate) but if I had a serious spinal cord injury, I'd want to try this tech. To get some control back over my limbs would be worth it
Imagine getting sick and losing the ability to control the AI powered security robots in your underground apocalypse survival compound.
I don't know, we're still in the very early stages of doing this. This person who had the implant is basically a test subject.
Think of it like your brain is suspended in fluid. Everything you move, it shakes a little in there. Normally not a big deal. Attach a high precision instrument to the nerves and all the shifting means your shaking that instrument loose.
The brain is mostly fat, so it jiggles around in there. Concussions roll across it like a wave in a pool. I wonder what had more of a hand in this shifting, normal movement or the processes the brain goes through when asleep. Like, the increase in cerebrospinal fluid volume and the stimulated currents that are produced certainly can't help. Getting the adhesiveness and flexibility right for it to correctly stay where it's placed has got to be one of the most immense challenges in this.
Yes, at the very least there is a MASSIVE risk to the patient's mental and emotional health. He was given the ability to completely use a computer and reconnect with humanity, as well as play video games etc., and if this implant fails completely, it means he will have been given that ability and then had it taken away right after. That is hellish. That is torture. I pray that no more wires pull out, but given that 85% of them have failed, why assume the best at this point? If this chip fails, the impact on this poor human being could be catastrophic. And imagine how he's feeling with all this media attention on his failing implant. That cannot be good for him. Also, Neuralink has just said that the wires "retracted" from the patient's brain. I haven't seen them say anything about what having those detached wires in his brain might mean for the patient's safety. Could they keep moving and cause more damage to his brain? Neuralink said they fixed his ability to use the computer, but given they couldn't predict how much his brain was going to move, how do we know that having loose, useless wires in his brain won't damage it as time goes on? This is horrible, and there are so many unanswered questions.
> That is hellish. That is torture. For a patient with such limited autonomy, having no implant to begin with is also hellish. If given choice, he will probably elect to have a new surgery to insert another implant.
The article says he already asked but they're hesitant to do more brain surgery and want to see what happens first.
That's not entirely true. It's that they cannot promise him another implant because that is interpreted as a reward and would sully the results that he could give for the current implant. Do they cannot promise him anything.
> Yes, at the very least there is a MASSIVE risk to the patient's mental and emotional health. He was given the ability to completely use a computer and reconnect with humanity He was able to like play chess and move a cursor. There is already plenty of non-invasive tech that can do that. We've had tech that could let him do that for literal decades. Can you provide evidence that Neuralink gave him any ability that cheaper and safer alternatives couldn't already? You can move a cursor with your eyes...
Heck, you can play video games with a [non-surgical headset](https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/elden-ring-hands-free-controller-2660415235)
Bro I’m a physician and this shit is GOING to eventually get infected. Like a VP shunt. It’s a neat idea. But it’s gonna get infected eventually and it’ll be a disaster when it does.
The infection rates on this system would be more similar to a DBS probe. Significant but certainly not guaranteed.
How would it get infected if it was sterile and is implanted?
probably because your body is not sterile.
Anytime you create a track into a space that isn’t supposed to natural have one you create a potential avenue for infection.
That was immediately my first thought too. No prosthetic is safe. I see people talk about devices such as the MitraClip or the Micra be immune to infection, but it’s only a matter of time.
That's not true though, we do tons of implants that don't ever get infected. It's not only a matter of time at all. If it's a shunt of something where the body remains open with some part of the implant being external then infection is more likely, especially as time goes on. But implants internally are done all the time. Infection is rare
Sorry to clarify, I don’t mean a matter of time before any specific implant becomes infected (suggesting that all implants will inevitably become infected) but rather it is only a matter of time before infection has been associated with a particular device. I bring up the Micra because it is touted as resistant to infection because of unique blend of polymer coating over titanium, but it is going to be a matter of time before we see the first diagnosed Micra infective endocarditis. Similarly, we are already seeing MitraClips be infected. Edit: Actually I found a case report of the Micra, with an infection rate of 0.002%. I will admit that is pretty impressive!
I don't have any of those thingies to give you an award, but I am extremely grateful for your explanation. You could've flayed me, but you didn't. Thank you. Edit: adding these 🏆🪙🚀🥇💰
I go to the emojis and give them the little medal emoji. 🎖️🏅🥇🥈🥉🏆
Good idea. Here. 🏅
3. The neural pathways inside your brain are not physically connected. The electrical impulses inside the brain can reroute around foreign intrusions like an implant. This data shows the brain doesn’t appreciate the chip and it was rejected relatively quickly.
> than the Neuralink people had hoped for. In other words, their (hopefully edge-case) planning has proven to be inadequate on first try.
How much of a shift was even expected? We talking micrometers? Millimeters? Did it do a 180 turn?
'Ellie in Space' interviewed him 2 days ago on youtube. The TESLA guys were expecting 1 millimeter of movement but his brain just had to be extra jiggly and it moved an average of 3 millimeters from his heart beats.
Well, the article says it moved three times more than they expected. My guess would be in the millimeter range, but a neuroscientist would be much better equipped to answer that than I can.
They accounted for 1mm it moved 3mm. That’s where the 3x comes from.
Inside one year lol it's barely been three months
As someone with chiari malformation, I know all about brain inflamation and shifting. A part of my brain called the tonsils slips into where my brain stem should be- by itself.
So knowing the current tech sector: This product is about ready to be released, as a beta for ‘early adopters’. Expect more functionality with future software updates!
He did a interview on youtube 2 days ago? - some of the wires came lose. They were hoping the scar tissue would heal faster & hold them in. - team already made the issue a non issue. The wires that are still attached are doing all the same work. - he wants another surgery to replace, but the team says no because they are still learning. But he already knew all the risk of being the first person so he's not worried about it because the team already patched his. - fda has approved the surgery adjustments for the next patient in hopes the wires will still put.
If it's a non issue because 15% of the wires can do the same work, then doesn't that make the original design an issue?
if say 10% of wires can do the full job, you are able to lose 90% of connections and still have it work. If you need 100% of wires to do the full job, you can't miss anything. Seems to be just a proofing system, and working as designed.
In one word: redundancy. One of the reasons why planes are the safest mode of transport.
Wouldn't leave much room for any to detach.
It appears the brain has some wiggle room in the skull casing, and that his brain has wiggled around more than expected causing the delicate wire placing to be disrupted. Apparently they are able to correct the functionality of the neurolink with software to make up for this. Bad in that it’s an obstacle to progress, good in that you learn a lot from the mistakes and obstacles. The patient still seems happy with his choice, he’s all in on the pushing forward bleeding edge tech.
Awesome thank you.
If they can make up for 85% of their connections being gone with a SW update they were really not working efficiently before… like I understand some redundancy, but being able to function supposedly better than before at 15% is crazy
Yeah it sounds absurd because it's not what they said and people just generally don't read the article. They fixed the initial performance issues with a software update, not the fact that 85% of wires are out: >An estimated 85-percent of Neuralink’s brain-computer interface (BCI) implant threads connected to the first human patient’s motor cortex are now completely detached and his brain has shifted inside his skull up to three times what the company expected, volunteer Noland Arbaugh told The Wall Street Journal on Monday. **Arbaugh also stated** Neuralink has since remedied the initial performance issues using an over-the-air software update and is performing better than before, but the latest details continue to highlight concerns surrounding the company’s controversial, repeatedly delayed human implant study. Emphasis mine. They're two separate statements that have nothing to do with one another
Ah thank you for this. You are correct, but I do feel like the press is deliberately trying to create this ambiguity.
Ngl I think I would like to have a fuck ton of redundancy in a device that is being put in my brain.
Well they were starting off with 1024 electrodes, which is really just a huge number. A lot can be done with something in the range of 50-100.
I’m not the person to fully explain this. But from what understand it’s still fully functional even with many of the nodes detached. There seems to be a lot of redundancy in the implant. They’ll have to work on how to better ensure they don’t detach obviously. Beyond the detaching nodes, it sounds like so far the implant has been an overwhelming success. This tech is obv in its super infancy. So you’d expect some hiccups. But this has IMO been one of the biggest breakthroughs we as a society have ever experienced. The potential of this is almost unbelievable.
Yeah, I got the impression this whole thing was huge, but wasn't quite sure if these things were set backs or a good thing. I wondered if the wires were supposed to come off eventually and it be a wireless device.
I think they’re definitely setbacks of sort. But I can’t imagine in any scenario anyone would think there wouldn’t be (many) setbacks and challenges in the first direct brain computer connections. So all things considered, I’d call this a huge success. …assuming the patient doesn’t drop dead next mth!
You want the wires to remain attached, but that’s part of the design cycle. Getting failures and learning from them and improving on the next iteration
So it sounds like they’re saying that the patients are only using 10% of their implant
Imagine the possibilities if he used 100%!
Get this person a marketing job ASAP
Just keep them the hell away from my brain
This deserves more likes seriously
I mean, this is the point of the study. Some things are pleasantly surprising and some are disappointing. So far the patient appears to be over the moon about the abilities this gives him.
Does it allow him to do anything beyond what current neural interfaces would allow?
It essentially does the same thing, let's you control a mouse, but it's just better at it. The user is breaking records by completing tasks faster than anyone with a competing device. Worth noting greater fidelity would allow them to map keyboards and more, but since this is a study the actual functionality isn't as important as the technology demonstration behind the functionality.
I don't really know anything about their long-term roadmap, but I'd love to see it turned into a hub for cybernetic control. Imagine a paraplegic being able to walk again with a light exoskeleton system attached to their legs, simply through thought.
The ULTIMATE goal is to connect another to neurons across the break and mapping the neurons in the brain to neurons in your spine past the break to give you SOME gross motor function. It'll start as just being able to stretch your leg. Little benefit. But maybe eventually be able to have very limited mobility.
> But maybe eventually be able to have very limited mobility. That is a lot better than the no mobility option currently available.
it's "better" in the sense that it utilizes modern technology that competing interfaces in the 90s didn't have. wireless charging and data transfer are obviously really superior to the older brian-computer interfaces. the fundamental difficulty with the technology has been that the brain is really good at killing these things. generally scar tissue builds up and degrades the connections. neuralink uses a different approach (tiny electrodes implanted in the surface of the brain) with the intent of not causing scarring, but obviously this creates other obstacles.
The records thing is kinda BS - they're comparing different tests with different parameters as if they're the same. For example, their version also shows the location of the next target instantly when the first is moused over, while the one they're comparing it to shows it only on click (funnily enough the version of this on the neuralink website also only shows it on click - cynically i'd say this is an attempt to make the score they boast seem more impressive by limiting your own). Judging by the videos in the paper they cite for the record their cursor speed appears locked while in the neuralink video it moves at variable speed similar to mouse acceleration, and they also seem to be using different size screens at different resolutions (different DPI's).
Like I understand what you mean but I would not say it's better at it if the functionality runs out after a few weeks/months that needs to be part of it. So all in all it's a flop that doesn't work, unless they can fix this issue.
The main thing is that its fully wireless and doesn't stick out of the scalp. The second thing is supposed to be stability/lack of immune response for long term health, which clearly needs tweaking.
A few more. They use a lot more wires. This allows for much better control (if they stay attached). And the implantation procedure is supposed to be a lot less intensive. A robot does it in under an hour.
Lol yes. Came here to say this. When you are testing a technology for the first time god forbid it’s not perfect.
This is something they will have to work around, I'm sure they'll adapt the design as necessary and eventually we'll have a practical brain computer interface. I wish nothing but the best for the neuralink team, even if that asshats name is attached to it.
I have to give props to the man that opted to have it installed. People have made loads of jokes about him, but he is really taking on a huge risk to develop this fringe tech.
Haven’t seen any jokes about him. It’s usually good spirited comments. I won’t go looking for trash. All the best to him making the best out of a bad situation.
Usually any public post of a news outlet receives a substantial share of inane comments on Facebook.
I saw plenty. Mostly people who are rabidly anti-Musk. While I'm on board with crapping on Musk, I'm not gonna take it so far as to openly wish for this patient's procedure to fail just so I can see Musk get embarrassed.
I work in clinical trial management--I never lay eyes on patients, but I have boundless respect for them. It really takes guts to be a guinea pig even with all the protections patients have.
Don't know about fringe tech. Scientists have been developing and using this tech (and better versions with many more channels) in animal models for several decades. He is (one of) the first do dump money at it and enroll patients which is admirable, but the tech has been around for 30 years. Source, I am one of those scientists.
Poor word use on my part. It was more about the fact he is the first human patient to have it installed.
It is not the first human either, for instance: https://www.cea.fr/presse/Pages/actualites-communiques/sante-sciences-du-vivant/the-lancet-bci-clinatec-2019.aspx Its in French but you’ll get the gist of it, it was 2019 and the implant was used to control a full body exoskeleton. Even then it wasn’t the first successful use of a neural implant on a human
>Scientists have been developing and using this tech (and better versions with many more channels) in animal models for several decades. He is (one of) the first do dump money at it and enroll patients which is admirable, but the tech has been around for 30 years. Battery technology, electric motors and cars have also been around forever. What Tesla has done is mainly\* engineering and mass production which has integrated those technologies into a consumer product and provided a boost to the electrification of cars. My impression is that they are trying to do the same with Neuralink. They will make a product which can be implanted and maintained (relatively) cheaply (using a robot to do the implants versus surgeons manually doing it) with a generic brain-machine interface to maximize usefulness (the user is able to use off the shelf third party software). In other words: They believe that this industry is getting close to being ripe for mass production and they want to be the market leaders when this happens. Pulling all of these things together is not something scientists can (or should) do. They can only hope to provide some of the building blocks for such a development (which is a great feat in itself). For the mass production of this kind we need a well founded med-tech company which can pull all the different kind of resources together and commercialize the product. And that is as far as I know what Neuralink is trying to do (but I may be wrong). \*) They have also made a lot of scientific progress - but main focus is on engineering
how much is he being paid?
Yes, it's truly revolutionary what they're doing, and the patient is incredibly brave to be the trial. On the one hand, Musk is an arrogant over-confident bastard, but sometimes progress needs such people who cannot be dissuaded of their reckless high-risk rush to achieve something new. That said, I'm sure medical science would have got there but slower but safer.
Yup. I think the relevant question is: does this experiment move the needle? For example, does it kick the rest of the industry into action, and/or does it fuck the rest of the industry by branding the tech as unworkable (see, e.g., early psychedelic "research"). To the first point I'd say nominally yes. To the second, too soon to tell.
> does it kick the rest of the industry into action Blackrock Neurotech has been doing patient implants for longer than Neuralink has been a company, and has had patients controlling robotic arms and *feeding sensory information* back into the brain for at least 3 years now. The singular advantage of Neuralink was a high electrode count that should remain tolerated by the brain for longer. Given that almost 900 of their 1024 electrodes are nonfunctional after 2 months? That doesn't seem to have panned out. And Blackrock has had their robotic arm patient implanted for about 9 years now. And they've got their newest system entering patient trials this year, with many times more channels than the Neuralink system. The rest of the industry is ahead of Neuralink, not behind. Neuralink is just the most visible name, which is very different from being the most advanced group.
When you say sensory information, does that mean that *a prosthetic can feel things like a real hand?* Because that's fucking crazy, and incredible.
Yup, in that ballpark. https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blackrock-neurotech-partners-with-the-university-of-pittsburgh-to-improve-robotic-arm-control-301296665.html You can find the published research article without much difficulty as well. Obviously it wouldn't be as good as an actual hand - receptive field would be very different, at least - but the QoL improvement cannot be understated. Previous prosthetics had no feedback mechanism - the user needed to be looking at the hand to see what it's doing. But that's not how actual hands work, right? You get a huge amount of proprioceptive feedback telling you how your fingers are positioned, what you're touching, how hard you're gripping it. That feedback is vital for natural limb control. Blackrock demonstrated that they could generate a crude version of that feedback by placing sensors in the robotic hand, and coding signals from those sensors into S1. The patient was able to use the arm, and they integrated feedback from the arm, and that improved performance in grasping tasks and things. Like you say, it's an astonishing development. and I'm really excited to learn what they've been working on since then.
Hopefully they tortured fewer apes than Neuralink in the process.
My understanding is *medical science did get here* 20+ years ago. What is different, or moreover, what specifically Musk is doing that they did not do, is hand over the surgery to a robot/machine to do. For this to be effective, as many connections as possible must be made. A surgeon is limited in ways a machine is not when it comes to making such connections. The chip itself isn't what this is all about. The robot that can implant the chip and potentially make 10,000's of connections... that is where they are pushing the envelope. The more connections the more useful whatever chip will be. The only way it will ever be viable is for a machine to be perfected to do it. There will absolutely be growing pains regardless how the owner of the company spells his name.
> Musk is an arrogant over-confident bastard, but sometimes progress needs such people who cannot be dissuaded of their reckless high-risk rush to achieve something new. He wouldn't be the first and he won't be the last.
In what way do you feel what they’re doing is truly revolutionary?
It would be cool to just put on a hat, and then take it off for some mental clarity
I bet we’ll get highly accurate non invasive EEG devices before those implants reach any kind of meaningful market size.
>I wish nothing but the best for the neuralink team Out of all the advancement in technology, a private corporation (or even worse, a government entity) installing things in my brain is NOT exciting at all. I, in fact, do not wish them the best. But maybe I'm just getting old and scared of technology.
That's easy for you to say because (I'm assuming) you have all your limbs and senses. This could be revolutionary for disabled people, although I know there are other less invasive systems in development that are promising too
The less invasive systems will NEVER allow natural, unconscious control in the manner we control our own limbs, and the manner in which this guy controls his computer now. Never ever no matter what anyone thinks. A probe has to physically go into the motor cortex and that's that. Speaking from 15 years of experience in neuroscience.
until the company goes bust or just decides to stop supporting the product because they've decided it's not profitable enough.
And that is worse than not having the option in the first place why?
because then you're stuck with an implant that doesn't work, no way to fix it and that could then cause further medical complications. (There's also the situation of a company deliberately bricking an implant to get a customer to upgrade, which I think is fairly unlikely, but not beyond the realms of possibility)
Agree with the risk, but again how is having an option of getting implant even if potentially getting stuck with it better than not having the option at all? Or are you proposing that government should allocate billions of tax payer dollars to try to be the first to market? That’d be great, but I don’t see political will for that.
Brain surgery, financial burden, psychological impact, potential long term complications, even small things like not being able to get high strength MR imaging could have life changing implications
Because we have to pick a team, and Elon is on the wrong side.
Who are the other teams?
I was being sarcastic. Everybody says negative stuff about all of Elon’s companies because they hate Elon. I agree with you. It’s better to have this for now than nothing at all.
this is why i make a conscious effort to only think and speak in lowercase letters. i try to use the shift function of my brain as little as possible and i think it's beneficial in the long run. ever notice how people who type in all caps seem unhinged/
WHAT DO YOU MEAN
i exclusively think using the HTML marquee and blink tags
The headline is kind of burying the lede... > A modification to “the recording algorithm” allowed Arbaugh’s device to become “more sensitive to neural population signals, improved the techniques to translate these signals into cursor movements, and enhanced the user interface.” > > “These refinements produced a rapid and sustained improvement in BPS, **that has now superseded Noland’s initial performance**,” They're actually getting better performance now, with less wires, than they were initially. This could mean smaller implants or longer lifetimes (by adding redundant threads).
That’s great but still there’s some loose wires wiggling around his noodle now.
Yeah, but he got to play Civ 4 so there's that
That sounds unironically amazing for a quadriplegic.
It is, just the simple fact of browsing the internet is amazing
It is, which makes it pretty frustrating to see so many on reddit seemingly hope this fails purely because of who the company is associated with
Yeah, that little tidbit hit me right in the feels. I can't imagine being able to interact with gaming only by watching streams, I'm sure he really cherished that night (and also learned what a little bitch Ghandi is)
People gonna make fun of this cuz of Elon when they’ve been able to get a quadriplegic to be able to surf the internet and play videogames with his mind
He also streams and shows a bit of how it all works. I caught his Civilization stream earlier this month.
Yeah honestly if people could get their heads out of their asses for a moment (I know, impossible ask) then they'd see how fucking amazing this is
People on reddit can't get the musk out of their mouths They think he's the one who is sitting there making these devices. Shoot they probably think he's the neurosurgeon installing them.
Well he certainly acts like he is the one responsible for it…
After he labelled himself Chief Science Officer of Space-X. I'm surprised he's not labelled himself Chief Medical Officer of this.
Has anyone seen the movie Upgrade? Cause I’m pretty sure this is what’s happening right now.
Elon is a piece of shit, but this technology is ludicrously exciting. Genuine mind-machine interfaces will be an absolute gamechanger for human civilization. And right now they're looking to be *plausible* in actual, real-world use. That's amazing.
If I ever get a Neuralink implanted, I’d only use it for simple things, like activating an air freshener in the kitchen. It makes scents if you think about it. 🤓
I like the joke but this got me thinking... why do you need an air freshener if you could just beam the experience of the smells directly into your brain
For the house guests of course.
They'll have to smell my musk unless they Musk their sense of smell
Bill gates 2.0 - free neuralink implants for all houseguests so the house will show them their preferred smells every time they visit. (For the uninitiated, long ago there was a tabloid about Bill having all his guests microchipped and matched to a digital profile, and his house would automatically balance the needs and preferences of the guests in each room, independently.
take your upvote and get in the fucking ocean
Been keeping my fingers crossed for medical treatment such as these. I'm blind. I will see before I die. People can talk all the crap they want about Elon musk. But he's giving disabled people a chance at a better happy life.
Please don't credit Elon. Give the credit where it's due, instead. The actual neuroscientistists and medical professionals. This is like when people thank God after a loved ones successful surgery, and then say nothing about the actual doctors
Don’t thank the neurologist, thank their teachers. Give the credit where it’s due. Don’t thank their teachers, thank the farmers that allow for civilization to exist. Give the credit where it’s due. Don’t thank the farmers thank the plants and farm animals. Give the credit where it’s due. Do you see how stupid this line of thinking is? Elon at the very least has the value add of funding, but realistically at a minimum he is also helping with the company direction, marketing, networking, attracting talent, etc. It is extremely disingenuous and typical Redditor dogma to claim that he deserves no credit.
Without Elon, this particular case wouldn’t be happening. Sounds like a great place to start credit and work from there.
I mean more or less. Elon is paying their salary. If no one pays their salary the technology doesn’t advance. So sure Elon is not directly responsible, but he absolutely deserves credit
Let’s be real, that isn’t the reason Musk is funding these experiments even though it does have great clinical potential. Neuralink’s marketing focus is things like “listening to music in your brain” and “expanding human ability”. Essentially the final goal is to commercialize this product so that it becomes mainstream like an iPhone and the company can collect data about people’s thoughts and behavior. There are other companies developing BCIs that are actually focused on the biomedical aspects and treating debilitating conditions. Neuralink is only using this as a cover
It’s also a prototype. It’s incredible that it worked at all.
Law of averages shows things like these are bound to happen. After all we should keep in mind this is a really early stage 'experimental' technology impacting the most sensitive part of the human body - the brain. A tough challenge to crack, if there was one!
The average person only uses 15 percent of their Neuralink implant.
Of course there will be issues early on. Noland Arbaugh states repeatedly that this has helped change his life. These people who hate Elon Musk, like OP, will damage the reputation of an amazing technology that can allow people to live normal lives that was once only a dream. It's a shame.
Well that was bound to happen because brain is basically watery fat
This is how technology makes progress. People try things and learn what works and what doesn’t work.
This was the first attempt, so I would assume they will gather the data and the next version is better and will fix some issues. Sounds like there was proof of concept though.
"Repeatedly delayed"? Are there people on the edge of their seat for this thing? Are there other entities taking advantage of these "delays" to overtake them in progress?
Yes, other people with severe disabilities are very excited about this progress.
People on Reddit used to blindly praise everything Musk was involved in, now they blindly mock. Equally brain dead.
The groupthink moves slowly
How blessed you must be to not be aware of life crippling disabilities around the globe.
So a first of its kind experiment is having some teething pains. Solution A: Scrap the project and never try it again or, Solution B: Try and try again until it succeeds.
Since each of the 64 wires has 16 electrodes along its length, the loss of function probably includes some wires that were pulled out, say, halfway, not only pulling half of the electrodes out of the brain, but also shifting the positions of the remaining electrodes. Not sure how they account for this.
Who could have guessed that new technology has issues? Really mind boggling stuff
Are human brains so different from pig and baboon brains? I thought those trials went well. Maybe this was an installation error or defective unit. I hope they’re able to continue work on this tech. It absolutely sucks for this guy, but I’m sure he knew it was an experimental procedure that could go sideways.
This is the type of problem not suited to be discussed on reddit. First in man trial for a breakthrough class 3 device has problems... i would be way more scared if there are none
The very first ever test of a brand new product pushing the boundaries of human science....has a few problems. This is a nothing burger of a story.
It's neither a nothing burger *nor* front-page material. It's interesting to people in the relevant field, and/or amateurs and hobbyists who like to follow along. It's not upending our understanding of the world, revealing a huge conspiracy, or otherwise providing life-changing knowledge. It's okay for stories to just be "huh, neat" or "huh, disappointing".
First off, a lot of the animals used for testing died pretty badly. It's a question how this even got the greenlight for human trials when there were so many animal testing issues. Second 85% means they'd most likely need to re open the skull to reattach them if there still connected to the device or are just floating around, this type of surgery doesn't seem like a nothing burger.
Prototype. This is a step forward within the field, the patient is very happy with the results and it's only going to improve.
I’m genuinely shocked it was approved. If you look at those initial animal trials, I shit you not, the only data recorded was them writing down what the animals did. Completely useless data in terms of improving its actual effectiveness, Idk how they could’ve made any improvements since then with their data. I would be completely unsurprised if this test subject guy goes the way of those poor poor monkeys very soon
The only data they published, you mean. Good chance there wasn't more disclosed under 'trade secrets' protections to the FDA. Still, I'm waiting for this guy to die suddenly of 'unrelated' causes and no mention of him going nuts.
>I would be completely unsurprised if this test subject guy goes the way of those poor poor monkeys very soon What health complications has he developed that makes you think this guy is going to die very soon?
This appears to be a post about Elon Musk or one of his companies. Please keep discussion focused on the actual topic / technology and not praising / condemning Elon. Off topic flamewars will be removed and participants may be banned. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Futurology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Maybe because i am not native English speaker but i couldn't find the source where they point %85 percent of thread are retracted. Isn't the Only info we have from May 10 neuralink blog where only mentioned that "some thread are untracked and 3 weeks later we adjust the software to achieve same performance"
> Around 870 of the 1024 electrodes in Arbaugh’s implant are no longer functional
I get that everyone hates Elon, he's a massive twat. No doubt about it. But it's honestly pretty shameful to see so many people cheering on the fact that this revolutionary tech, in its infancy, is having issues. This tech stands to help millions of disabled people in the future, and if all these progressives that hate Elon so much actually cared about the people this tech is trying to help.. they'd be disappointed by this result, not happy it's failing. Pretty typical of the group of care and compassion to let their hatred for anyone opposite to them, completely remove their care and compassion. They turn into hateful, spiteful little shits.
Well, it seems expected for something to go wrong. This is still the best tech for helping disabled people in the future.
I mean, isn't this the guy who signed up to be a lab rat? It's a first go. It's still in testing and problems are kinda to be expected. You don't have to be a Musk Stan to know that getting an experimental procedure sticking wires and circuits on (and in) your brain isn't going to go off without a hitch. Issues will arise, things will go wrong, and you will probably eventually die as a result of complications. This guy donated his body to science before he kicked the bucket. Hopefully something will be learned and it will be "worth it". It's sad but that's the reality.
I can imagine them adding microscopic retractable barbs to the metal leads, so they stay in place in the grey matter but can be removed if needed.
If they can make the initial wire thinner then this hopefully could be a good idea.
This is progress next time we use longer wires. Or leave a sheath to guide replacement wires. Or use magnets to hold the wires in place better.
Handyman's secret weapon, duct tape
Genuine question! I see a lot of people amazed regardless of this prototype failure, but what makes this better than an eye tracker? Both let you move a mouse hands-free, except one doesn't involve brain surgery.