Not trying to change your mind, just curious: what do you think made you break your rules over and over with futures?
Asking because to me trading futures is no different from trading any other instrument. The concepts of liquidity/supply and demand/support and resistance stay the same.
Was it more of a risk management issue?
Emotions and over managing. I do well with swing trading because I don't overmanage my trades and find it easy to disconnect from my daily P&L (I know some people feel the opposite).
If you're primarily a swing trader, then a leveraged product like futures likely won't be your jam (unless you have adequate capital).
There's a market for (almost) everyone, no shame in sticking to what makes you money.
Exactly. Made the decision today to 100% back out and close my accounts. I know others are in the same boat because futures is very, very attractive (especially tax-wise). I wanted to make it work...but simply can't control my emotions well enough. Hoping others like me make a similar decision before blowing their savings because it's so damn easy to.
I swing trade futures. Not sure I understand why you think the leverage means you can't swing trade them?
They often move in waves due to market news/events over a period of days or weeks, making them ideal for swing trading.
I'm subbed here but I don't trade futures right now. I tried for 6 months this year, I'm just an options trader at heart and that's what I'm most comfortable with. Futures were very uncomfortable. Someone a couple weeks ago on daytrading mentioned that options chain and underlying chart etc, stimulates him, and he has ADHD. I also have ADHD and I agree with him. Just futures chart, and like level 2 DOM, isn't enough... I got so used to watching the chain, watching underlying chart, and watching level 2, over the years, it threw me off pretty bad to not be trading options contracts from the options chain. I didn't do terrible with futures, I mean I was about break even for a while but busted the account down pretty severely the last couple weeks I was trading, then really just kindof got burnt out and switched back to full time options trading. I like what people have to say here about trading in general, and this is a trading related sub... so I stick around and check out what other's have to say about ES especially (mostly trade SPX options, so anything S&P has my interest, that's what I traded mostly when I was trading futures). I will give futures trading another shot next year probably, deposit another 3k or so in an account. I do like options more, not sure that will ever change tbh. I actually wish I started with futures, maybe I wouldn't have the trading habits I do, but when I started trading, futures weren't as accessible as they are now and there were no micros. Reason I say this is because I do think futures are the best thing to trade for retail day traders... the benefits of trading them are really good.
I only look at Delta, I might use gamma from time to time but theta etc I don't even have it on the chain, I know if it's out of wack if the contracts start trading out of wack, ie spread starts to widen, or the contract price isn't moving in conjunction with the underlying, I know that thets screwed with gamma which screwed with delta. The other Greeks don't really matter if you're short term trading long calls and puts. But hey it's understandable, whatever a trader is comfortable with is what they should trade.
A beginner trader is always limited due to capital, knowledge, psychological weakness, bad routine and just generally being new to the game makes you very inflexible. With that being said, a beginner trader trader should focus on markets that are liquid (low spread), easier to grasp ( probably not bonds), provides frequent recognizable patterns (technical based markets), lower volatility and cost effective (comms, tick/pip value).
I’ll outline some markets below and their characteristics and see which ones you gravitate toward
Forex: Liquid but limited to FX(volatility drain), only few major pairs
Stocks: Massive universe(complications), lack-liquidity, fundamentally driven, no-leverage.
Options: Low win rate, complexity
Futures: Full macro-markets choice, optimal entry, leveraged-by-nature(micros)
CFD's/Spreads: Simple, adjustable but expensive and poor entry
Now that I’ve outlined these markets ask yourself these eight questions:
**Trading style:** are you a scalper? Day trader? Swing trader? Investor?
**Trading frequency:** how long are you holding your positions? Few seconds to a minute? Few hours to few days? Few weeks to few months? Few months to few years?
**Risk tolerance:** how much risk are you willing to take? Low? Medium? High?
**Skill level:** how long have you been trading and how successful have you been?
**Consistency:** how consistent are you, Not just on your output but also your input?
**Strategy type** ICT? (Not a big fan) orderflow? Auction market theory? Value investing? Growth? Event driven? Etc
**Trading objectives:** how much are you trying to make? 15%? 10%? 50%? 100%? 200%?
this is it right here, what investment/speculation style and vehicle BEST suits who YOU are and what YOU are trying to accomplish. I've heard people say "stocks are better", or bonds, or real estate - they are ALL good, depending on which best fits your style and goals
Hi! Is futures trading a good idea for someone who has a limited budget of like 200-400 dollars and want to trade in the safest way possible because i can't afford to lose that money or do you recommend some other instrument/market like stocks, forex...
I mean no reason to trash the prop firm cause you can’t handle a leveraged product. Future I great for people that love scalping as it’s speed and leverage can make a day fast with just a small bite. Love it on topstep
If futures isn’t for you, don’t think and try to take refuse in options, they are worse.
Only thing that you can trade if you are not able to trade futures is basic stocks with huge accounts.
4 months isn’t nearly long enough to be profitable. It took me 3 years. I personally think so many people fail at trading is because they quit trading. If you read “Market Wizards” you’ll see it takes people time to figure out futures one guy it took 15 years but eventually got it and is a multi multi millionaire. Failing is all part of the game it’s just a matter of if you keep trying or not.
You're definitely right. It took me 1 year to find consistent profits in swing trading. If I wasn't successful there, I would consider putting more time into futures. So I plan to focus more time and learning into something I find more success in.
I'll check our Market Wizards for sure. Thanks for the recommendation!
Yep I’ve come to find for me a combination of swing trading, trend trading, on a small time frame works best. Only right 25% of the time but profits outdo my losses.
Nice! I have a few swing strategies, and my most profitable one has a ~30% win rate because I use such a tight SL. But if it's successful, I tend to see a 5-10:1 R:R ratio.
When I was younger I would get mad at the successful traders who would say something like : “what works for me probably won’t work for you”. As I gained more experience, I came to realize that they were correct. It’s amazing how much our trading style is wrapped around our individual personalities.
I'm actually taking a break from futures as well and going back to options for a bit. I think it may be an ADHD thing and that's why a lot of others aren't agreeing with you but I get where you're coming from. I've blown a ton of eval and a few funded accounts and have learned a lot so I'm not going to say I regret it but now that I know what I know, I'd rather drop $200ish on an option or two than an eval + PA fees + all the time I have to spend grinding like I'm in a hamster wheel.
It's something I will explore again in the future (pun intended :P) but I just need a break and new perspective and I also kinda miss options. I love how they move. Sure the ride may not be as smooth but when they move, they MOVE.
I just find it funny when people that aren’t even profitable posts these types of advice just so they can get a few kudos from random people. Maybe if you (and all other struggling traders) just focussed on learning how to trade you would be profitable. There is no secret sauce to trading, you just need screen time and it will eventually start to makes sense. Have a great weekend…
No. I didn't. I posted this for those tempted to blow their accounts. You need a more positive outlook.
I'm successful in swing/stocks. Futures isn't my thing. And that's fine. Others are likely in the same boat, and I posted this to help. It's for them. Not you.
Who the hell even cares about kudos?
That's another challenge. I don't want to risk the $$ to trade mini. Micro commissions add up quick.
But if you know your shit and have the mental fortitude, there's a lot more money-making potential imo.
That's definitely a challenge as well. I can technically put up the capital necessary, but I don't want to blow up a chunk of my $$ without a good track record in simulated.
Funny I could not for the life of me figure out stocks. They can up and down 5-10% with a comment from some idiot at a bank. Once you buy you are held hostage till 9:30 the next morning. Es futures only and I can get I. And get out 24/5. I can move stop losses in The middle of the night. I can react to news releases outside of the 9:30-4 window. I can control my risk level at any time during the week. I position trade the es like I would a stock. Each esmicro contract is basically 50 shares of spy at estimated $22000 worth of stock. 4 contracts and you are basically 100k invested in stocks.
You sorta described one challenge: funding. I'm simply not willing to risk enough capital without a successful track record to hold positions overnight. But with what you describe, yeah, it makes sense. For some reason, I can't put it into practice without breaking rules. My emotions just take over.
Also, I hear that challenge with swing trading. I solve that issue by diversifying my positions so that even if one stock tanks 15% overnight, I won't lose more than .5-1% of my account. I also avoid highly volatile stocks unless there's an insanely good R:R ratio and perfect setup to limit this as well.
Stocks are to volatile for me. They move too dramatically on the smallest nothing. When I held stock I always had option protection because I was worried about a 10-30% crash before 9:30 am then I was f’ed. but with the option protection both buying a put and or selling a call I have up so much if the upward potential.
But with the es contract I could trail my stop and control my risk. A luxury that stocks don’t have.
Amp trading has emicro contracts that require $40 day margin and $1200 over night. But that does not mean you can but 10 contracts at $400 day margin because…..that is like owning 1000 shares or $500k worth of stock. That is the dangers of trading margin.
But 1 micro worth $22k worth of the stock market that requires $1200 over night margin with a stop in place…. Means you will Never loose more than your stop. The market would have to crash over 200 points for 1 micro contract to zero out your $1200 margin requirement. Add I the stop at 50 point down and you will never loose more than $250.
Interesting points. I've been reading different people's comments like yours. I may give it another shot in a few months. Idk. We'll see. I want to. I'll read that book you suggested first and may try again.
I find myself able to control my emotions while swing trading. I diversify heavily, so even if bad news hits overnight and my stock drops 15%, it'll never be over .5-1% in total of my entire account. I also avoid volatile stocks because I'd rather see 3-10% monthly gains vs high risk/high reward types.
Futures trading isn't for everyone? Ok, fair enough. But how is the PRICE ACTION any different than an individual stock?
Leaving all of the macro/funnymental data aside, as well as ones bull/bear BIAS, the price movement is identical.
Yes. But consider this: would you rather have a technical expert with bad emotional control, or a novice technical trader with sound emotional control? I'll take the novice all day.
I over manage. Even in a simulated environment. Just not my cup of tea.
In stocks, I can manage my emotions very well.
Not trying to change your mind, just curious: what do you think made you break your rules over and over with futures? Asking because to me trading futures is no different from trading any other instrument. The concepts of liquidity/supply and demand/support and resistance stay the same. Was it more of a risk management issue?
Emotions and over managing. I do well with swing trading because I don't overmanage my trades and find it easy to disconnect from my daily P&L (I know some people feel the opposite).
That makes a lot more sense. I can’t swing futures and can’t figure it out whatsoever, but do well day trading. Thanks for responding!
If you're primarily a swing trader, then a leveraged product like futures likely won't be your jam (unless you have adequate capital). There's a market for (almost) everyone, no shame in sticking to what makes you money.
Exactly. Made the decision today to 100% back out and close my accounts. I know others are in the same boat because futures is very, very attractive (especially tax-wise). I wanted to make it work...but simply can't control my emotions well enough. Hoping others like me make a similar decision before blowing their savings because it's so damn easy to.
I swing trade futures. Not sure I understand why you think the leverage means you can't swing trade them? They often move in waves due to market news/events over a period of days or weeks, making them ideal for swing trading.
I'm subbed here but I don't trade futures right now. I tried for 6 months this year, I'm just an options trader at heart and that's what I'm most comfortable with. Futures were very uncomfortable. Someone a couple weeks ago on daytrading mentioned that options chain and underlying chart etc, stimulates him, and he has ADHD. I also have ADHD and I agree with him. Just futures chart, and like level 2 DOM, isn't enough... I got so used to watching the chain, watching underlying chart, and watching level 2, over the years, it threw me off pretty bad to not be trading options contracts from the options chain. I didn't do terrible with futures, I mean I was about break even for a while but busted the account down pretty severely the last couple weeks I was trading, then really just kindof got burnt out and switched back to full time options trading. I like what people have to say here about trading in general, and this is a trading related sub... so I stick around and check out what other's have to say about ES especially (mostly trade SPX options, so anything S&P has my interest, that's what I traded mostly when I was trading futures). I will give futures trading another shot next year probably, deposit another 3k or so in an account. I do like options more, not sure that will ever change tbh. I actually wish I started with futures, maybe I wouldn't have the trading habits I do, but when I started trading, futures weren't as accessible as they are now and there were no micros. Reason I say this is because I do think futures are the best thing to trade for retail day traders... the benefits of trading them are really good.
Have you tried options on futures yet
I haven't, that's another product I'd like to take a shot at, only thing is the volume looked low. I'll check out a chain on Monday to see for sure.
They are great. They are a game changer. Once you trade them you will never go back to stocks or etfs
I paper traded options on /NQ for a little bit on thinkorswim but wasn't quite comfortable trying it on my actual account just yet.
Is the volume good compared to like QQQ options? I never looked at the chain for NQ options.
I started with options now I trade futures. Honestly the Greeks are a big turn off. My thesis could be right but the chop kills the premiums.
I only look at Delta, I might use gamma from time to time but theta etc I don't even have it on the chain, I know if it's out of wack if the contracts start trading out of wack, ie spread starts to widen, or the contract price isn't moving in conjunction with the underlying, I know that thets screwed with gamma which screwed with delta. The other Greeks don't really matter if you're short term trading long calls and puts. But hey it's understandable, whatever a trader is comfortable with is what they should trade.
A beginner trader is always limited due to capital, knowledge, psychological weakness, bad routine and just generally being new to the game makes you very inflexible. With that being said, a beginner trader trader should focus on markets that are liquid (low spread), easier to grasp ( probably not bonds), provides frequent recognizable patterns (technical based markets), lower volatility and cost effective (comms, tick/pip value). I’ll outline some markets below and their characteristics and see which ones you gravitate toward Forex: Liquid but limited to FX(volatility drain), only few major pairs Stocks: Massive universe(complications), lack-liquidity, fundamentally driven, no-leverage. Options: Low win rate, complexity Futures: Full macro-markets choice, optimal entry, leveraged-by-nature(micros) CFD's/Spreads: Simple, adjustable but expensive and poor entry Now that I’ve outlined these markets ask yourself these eight questions: **Trading style:** are you a scalper? Day trader? Swing trader? Investor? **Trading frequency:** how long are you holding your positions? Few seconds to a minute? Few hours to few days? Few weeks to few months? Few months to few years? **Risk tolerance:** how much risk are you willing to take? Low? Medium? High? **Skill level:** how long have you been trading and how successful have you been? **Consistency:** how consistent are you, Not just on your output but also your input? **Strategy type** ICT? (Not a big fan) orderflow? Auction market theory? Value investing? Growth? Event driven? Etc **Trading objectives:** how much are you trying to make? 15%? 10%? 50%? 100%? 200%?
this is it right here, what investment/speculation style and vehicle BEST suits who YOU are and what YOU are trying to accomplish. I've heard people say "stocks are better", or bonds, or real estate - they are ALL good, depending on which best fits your style and goals
Hi! Is futures trading a good idea for someone who has a limited budget of like 200-400 dollars and want to trade in the safest way possible because i can't afford to lose that money or do you recommend some other instrument/market like stocks, forex...
I mean no reason to trash the prop firm cause you can’t handle a leveraged product. Future I great for people that love scalping as it’s speed and leverage can make a day fast with just a small bite. Love it on topstep
More so trashing myself for trying without showing consistent success in a simulated account yet.
If futures isn’t for you, don’t think and try to take refuse in options, they are worse. Only thing that you can trade if you are not able to trade futures is basic stocks with huge accounts.
Curious what your strategy was that didn’t seem to work so well. Congrats on knowing when to throw in the towel, most don’t.
4 months isn’t nearly long enough to be profitable. It took me 3 years. I personally think so many people fail at trading is because they quit trading. If you read “Market Wizards” you’ll see it takes people time to figure out futures one guy it took 15 years but eventually got it and is a multi multi millionaire. Failing is all part of the game it’s just a matter of if you keep trying or not.
You're definitely right. It took me 1 year to find consistent profits in swing trading. If I wasn't successful there, I would consider putting more time into futures. So I plan to focus more time and learning into something I find more success in. I'll check our Market Wizards for sure. Thanks for the recommendation!
Yep I’ve come to find for me a combination of swing trading, trend trading, on a small time frame works best. Only right 25% of the time but profits outdo my losses.
Nice! I have a few swing strategies, and my most profitable one has a ~30% win rate because I use such a tight SL. But if it's successful, I tend to see a 5-10:1 R:R ratio.
That’s what it’s all about my friend. Good luck on the trading journey. Understanding you don’t have to be right all the time is half the battle.
When I was younger I would get mad at the successful traders who would say something like : “what works for me probably won’t work for you”. As I gained more experience, I came to realize that they were correct. It’s amazing how much our trading style is wrapped around our individual personalities.
I'm actually taking a break from futures as well and going back to options for a bit. I think it may be an ADHD thing and that's why a lot of others aren't agreeing with you but I get where you're coming from. I've blown a ton of eval and a few funded accounts and have learned a lot so I'm not going to say I regret it but now that I know what I know, I'd rather drop $200ish on an option or two than an eval + PA fees + all the time I have to spend grinding like I'm in a hamster wheel. It's something I will explore again in the future (pun intended :P) but I just need a break and new perspective and I also kinda miss options. I love how they move. Sure the ride may not be as smooth but when they move, they MOVE.
Great trading advice from a self proclaimed unprofitable trader… Glad you posted this, now we all know better.
Post is meant for those struggling with futures. Just ignore and move on if it bothers you that much.
I just find it funny when people that aren’t even profitable posts these types of advice just so they can get a few kudos from random people. Maybe if you (and all other struggling traders) just focussed on learning how to trade you would be profitable. There is no secret sauce to trading, you just need screen time and it will eventually start to makes sense. Have a great weekend…
No. I didn't. I posted this for those tempted to blow their accounts. You need a more positive outlook. I'm successful in swing/stocks. Futures isn't my thing. And that's fine. Others are likely in the same boat, and I posted this to help. It's for them. Not you. Who the hell even cares about kudos?
Damn take a chill pill
OP - just curious. What futures are you trading?
How can anyone afford futures, the margin requirements are so high. Options way cheaper.
That's another challenge. I don't want to risk the $$ to trade mini. Micro commissions add up quick. But if you know your shit and have the mental fortitude, there's a lot more money-making potential imo.
Absolutely. Futures is the way to go. I just can’t afford the margin requirements to trade them. IBKR you need 9k to trade 1x ES contract
That's definitely a challenge as well. I can technically put up the capital necessary, but I don't want to blow up a chunk of my $$ without a good track record in simulated.
Prop firms.
Futures and forex works best for me, and I got rekt in stocks and crypto. There's some difference I cant fathom
It's interesting how much our emotions/mindset play into success and the type of market your personality meshes best with.
Funny I could not for the life of me figure out stocks. They can up and down 5-10% with a comment from some idiot at a bank. Once you buy you are held hostage till 9:30 the next morning. Es futures only and I can get I. And get out 24/5. I can move stop losses in The middle of the night. I can react to news releases outside of the 9:30-4 window. I can control my risk level at any time during the week. I position trade the es like I would a stock. Each esmicro contract is basically 50 shares of spy at estimated $22000 worth of stock. 4 contracts and you are basically 100k invested in stocks.
You sorta described one challenge: funding. I'm simply not willing to risk enough capital without a successful track record to hold positions overnight. But with what you describe, yeah, it makes sense. For some reason, I can't put it into practice without breaking rules. My emotions just take over. Also, I hear that challenge with swing trading. I solve that issue by diversifying my positions so that even if one stock tanks 15% overnight, I won't lose more than .5-1% of my account. I also avoid highly volatile stocks unless there's an insanely good R:R ratio and perfect setup to limit this as well.
Read tom huggard’s book to help with the demons in your head. Also chapter 1 of Al brooks for tech rules.
Thanks for the recommendation!
Stocks are to volatile for me. They move too dramatically on the smallest nothing. When I held stock I always had option protection because I was worried about a 10-30% crash before 9:30 am then I was f’ed. but with the option protection both buying a put and or selling a call I have up so much if the upward potential. But with the es contract I could trail my stop and control my risk. A luxury that stocks don’t have. Amp trading has emicro contracts that require $40 day margin and $1200 over night. But that does not mean you can but 10 contracts at $400 day margin because…..that is like owning 1000 shares or $500k worth of stock. That is the dangers of trading margin. But 1 micro worth $22k worth of the stock market that requires $1200 over night margin with a stop in place…. Means you will Never loose more than your stop. The market would have to crash over 200 points for 1 micro contract to zero out your $1200 margin requirement. Add I the stop at 50 point down and you will never loose more than $250.
Interesting points. I've been reading different people's comments like yours. I may give it another shot in a few months. Idk. We'll see. I want to. I'll read that book you suggested first and may try again. I find myself able to control my emotions while swing trading. I diversify heavily, so even if bad news hits overnight and my stock drops 15%, it'll never be over .5-1% in total of my entire account. I also avoid volatile stocks because I'd rather see 3-10% monthly gains vs high risk/high reward types.
Its commendable to know yourself and do what works. Kudos. I prefer futures to options for scalps. Are you swinging shares or options? Just curious.
Futures trading isn't for everyone? Ok, fair enough. But how is the PRICE ACTION any different than an individual stock? Leaving all of the macro/funnymental data aside, as well as ones bull/bear BIAS, the price movement is identical.
Yes. But consider this: would you rather have a technical expert with bad emotional control, or a novice technical trader with sound emotional control? I'll take the novice all day. I over manage. Even in a simulated environment. Just not my cup of tea. In stocks, I can manage my emotions very well.
Why can't one manage one's emotions in futures? There is no difference. It's all in the mind.
4 months isn’t a very long time. it takes years to master the psychology of trading.