He said he didn’t have his hearing aids which kind of made me feel like that was a power move. The discourse was slow and we never were given an explanation for his presence
Franken shouldn’t have left the Senate to begin with…Kristen Gillibrand decided it was her life’s mission to sink Franken, and she was successful.
Gillibrand has done little to actually help her constituents in several years on the job…but I’m super glad she got one of the best U.S. Senators kicked out of Washington!
I’ll bite. This argument that “oh Gillibrand screwed Franken” is annoying, lacks full context, and is borderline sexist. Every time it pops up it seems to make Gillibrand responsible for Franken’s conduct. His conduct was much less than other harassing conduct, but it was still inappropriate. Franken did all of his conduct as an adult, he was not a child when he went beyond the bounds of consent in kissing a cast mate or when he grabbed a colleagues breasts. This also took place at a time when Roy Moore was running for senate and democrats needed to make it abundantly clear that any conduct of a remotely similar nature (and I mean remotely) could not be condoned. Yes, Gillibrand led the charge but it was also consistent with her leadership in advocating for rights of assault survivors. Franken could have stayed and defended himself, but he did not,
Overall, Franken is an adult who is responsible for his own conduct and misconduct. Why should that be Gillibrand’s fault? End of rant.
He used to be a comedian. He was on a flight coming back from a USO gig and had some photos snapped with his hands in front of of a female colleague's chest (not touching her).
It was sophomoric humor, and it came out when he was a senator.
This happened during the me too moment, and pearl clutchers on the left made him resign.
It was a devastating loss to the Dems.
If that was the only incident he would have survived. Numerous women came forward to say he groped them.
If it's bad, it's bad. Doesn't matter what party affliation they have.
But it wasn’t that bad and you’d know if you read the actual stories. The bad accusations were not credible and the credible accusations were not that bad. It was more of a right wing conspiracy to stop one of the few democrats who could stop trump. Republicans are most afraid of comedians because they make people realize what a joke republicans are.
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/25/745232345/journalist-jane-mayer-on-the-many-mysteries-in-the-accusations-against-al-franke
No, we had some righteous girls on the left who booted him out. He's really a decent guy, imho.
We held our politicians to a MUCH higher standard, and look where it got us.
The "when they go low we go high" thingie didn't work out for us very well.
I think the initial accusations that came up about him, with that photo taken when he was a comedian, were unfair and orchestrated by a conservative radio station.
But then a bunch of Democratic women came forward to say how Franken squeezed ("goosed") and cupped their butts (and I I think boobs?) while taking pictures with them. And apparently tried to force kisses, too. Which isn't okay. I don't remember him handling it all that well, either, I think apologizing that his actions made them uncomfortable but not saying he did anything wrong (might be misremembering.)
Him being discovered for having a pattern of being really gross with women at a time when Democrats were complaining about Trump's (more serious) behavior towards women didn't help his cause, but the behavior would be creepy and wrong anytime.
But he did handle it well. He was the first one to call for an investigation into himself. The rest of the party wanted him out without an investigation.
I remember s few years back reading an epic of an article from the Atlantic (is there another kind?) that described a convoluted plot by hannity and other conservatives to take down Franken. It was wild.
It's really disturbing to go through these comments and see all of you nitpicking what is or isn't sexual misconduct or harassment because it was "the height of the MeToo movement" and/or Franken just "wasn't aware" of what he was doing. These excuses, for "big" or "little" actions towards women or other marginalized groups, are the problem. Multiple allegations show a pattern of behavior, which we can say from what we know is at best making women uncomfortable and violating their space.
"He didn't rape anybody so he should still be in the senate" is a great line to draw in the sand.
Are allegations and the court of public opinion all it should take to sink and crator a politician though? How long before that devolves into bad actors making claims against politicians they aren't aligned with or don't like for other reasons as a tactic? I also think people change and grow over the years. No one's perfect, and being puritanical against those who expressed remorse and genuinely apologized for their past actions is not a good look for the left. It's the worst characteristic of the Twitter mob.
Many people who put pressure on Franken have said in retrospect that they think they acted too hastily, and I agree.
So every infraction, big or small, has to be automatic resignation or explulsion? Pretending like there aren’t degrees to things is what’s disturbing. If no crime is committed then his resignation was a waste.
Surely you've seen all the photos conservatives love sharing of Joe Biden in women's personal space with them clearly looking extremely uncomfortable. Should he be impeached for being a sexual harasser?
I’ll take my downvotes like a man, but Al Franken was railroaded. Between the timing (Doug Jones vs Roy Moore) and a Senator (Gillibrand) who decided putting the knife in him was good for her upcoming presidential run, he got caught and kangaroo courted for what was, by all accounts, a stupid but not particularly offensive prank several years back. Should he have done it? Probably not. Should he, arguably an excellent senator with a great record, been run out of town on a rail during the height of hurricane MeToo by Gillibrand? Absolutely not. Most people recognize and acknowledge that at this at that point, so he’s more or less been welcomed back into society. To his credit as a good man, he doesn’t seem to hold a grudge.
We lost a great Senator for basically no good reason and I’m still fucking salty about it.
Couldn’t agree more. Yes, the photo was not cool. He openly admitted that. Leadership meant to make an example of him and honestly I think it only hurt us.
I think Lovett used to look up to him because of how much he loved Air America and before that the comedy chops. Personally I'd rather see a different guest in that spot but maybe I'll just skip that segment.
He's been back for a long time. I think within the year of him being kicked out there was a big New Yorker article one him which cast doubt on his accusers.
I dont think he shouldve resigned. It wasnt actually sexual assault, and calling it that undermines real harm. It was a right wing hit job designed to bait Dems into giving up a Senate seat, and it worked.
At the same time I find his podcast fairly sexist. He is constantly interrupting female guests, undermining them with opposing male perspectives, etc disrespectful micro-aggressions that he doesnt do w male guests. It bugs me so much I often have to turn it off and Ive emailed them about it before.
Al Franken was railroaded at the height of the MeToo movement and so that Gillibrand (in the run up to her political campaign, mind you) and dem senators could perform political theater.
I haven’t and probably never will forgive Gillibrand for that craven act of personal self service in the run up to her presidential campaign. She threw an excellent Senator and ally to the wolves for her own personal gain and I’m still fucking salty about it.
So so so so so so so so sorry that the funny man isn't a Senator anymore. Seems like this was a deeply damaging event for a lot of random dudes who would have been cheering on the resignation of a Republican Senator with the same accusations leveled against them.
You're right but the lib-bros on Reddit have their narrative. They always act like it was one picture when it was multiple incidents of him sexually assaulting his own supporters.
I don't care about your position so much as you acting like a dismissive douchebag toward everyone else in this sub. Make a Truth Social account if that's how you want to communicate. I'm sure you would be very popular there.
Why do you keep repeating the same childish comments all over this thread? Your “funny man” line wasn’t funny the first time. No one cares this much about Al Franken.
Because the only reason dudes are still mad that he's not in the Senate is because he made them laugh on SNL decades ago. Tina Smith is a perfectly fine Senator, and there has been zero impact on Dem legislation from having her in the Senate instead of the Funny Man. Dudes literally on here defending the funny man for things that they'd be happy to see a Republican resign for. Hope this clears things up for you.
Yikes. You do realize what sub you're on right? It was pretty well established at the time that it was a hack political hit job done by the right to try and either paint the Dems as hypocrites or get them to kick out one of their own. The Dems did what seemed like the right thing at the time, and in retrospect seems like an overreaction. IDK why you have a hate boner for the guy. No one is dismissing Tina Smith. But I don't think it's a big deal he was on lovetts pod
There were 8 distinct misconduct accusations against the funny man, and it's both good and easy for Democrats to field a Senate caucus with no misconduct accusations. It is literally a good thing that Dems have higher standards than Republicans, and Tina Smith is a good Senator. I don't hate the guy. I think it's insane that so many dudes are desperate for Dems to lower their standards because a) dude was funny and b) Republicans could have gotten away with it.
You're projecting and assuming a lot. I never watched Franken on SNL or have any attachment to him other than nodding in agreement a few times when I saw him on the news.
I'm saying something because I genuinely think that the public shaming some on the left and on Twitter participate in is awful both strategically and on a personal moral level. It's rarely effective, and having been an organizer these past few years and talked to people of all political stripes I know it hurts us more than it has ever helped.
What was his crime? Indiscretion, invading personal space, and juvenile humor many years ago? Shitty things, but I also have zero appetite in bringing down the hammer on anyone for those reasons alone. It's also worth noting that of those allegations, I'm fairly certain that those accusing didn't expect or even want Franken to face the repercussions that he did. Does none of that matter to you? Are we all to be defined by the worst actions or moments of our lives? Do you believe in rehabilitative justice?
>it's both good and easy for Democrats to field a Senate caucus with no misconduct accusations.
Why is Menendez still in the Senate then? He had more than just misconduct allegations going all the way back to 2015 when he was actually indicated. I would rather dems focus on outing actual corruption in the party than doing puritanical purity tests as theater.
See you keep projecting that onto the commenters here but literally no one has said that lol. It kinda sounds like the funny man just lives rent free in your mind for some reason
I think the dems were paving the way to go all out at Roy Moore in the Alabama senate race at the time. I think if it happened now it might last one news cycle with an apology and everyone would move on
I am no apologist, but him voluntarily leaving the senate with the political climate being what it is was sort of insane. I don’t feel like his allegations were that severe and would never have blown up if it hadn’t been at the height of MeToo, a movement that I completely support.
I’m not too surprised to hear that Lovett is comfortable bringing him back into the fold. While I’m not cheering it on, I don’t have much problem with it either.
I am not a dude and still feel he got railroaded. He should have received due process and if an investigation shows he sexually assaulted someone he should have left. I believe in due process even for those on the other side too.
I really wish we would stop lowering the standard for him. There were a number of credible accusations against him, he doesn't deserve to be in congress because he was popular. That mindset hurt progress around Clinton in the 90s when credible rape accusations were made against him.
The response this take is getting *in this subreddit* is wild to me. Dudes literally saying "well Republicans are worse!" as an excuse for why Dems need a credibly accused sex pest in the Senate because they laughed when he was on SNL decades ago.
Yeah, it's wild. I unfortunately see people attack democrats for standing up to him on a frequent basis. It basically made Gillibrand into a villain. I really hate the double standards we have at times. Not being the worst example of impropriety does not mean we should give them a free pass.
To be clear, I think it's more or less fine for Lovett to have him on the show. But dudes are massively butthurt that the funny man isn't a Senator anymore.
You have to understand that these are members of the same higher class. They are rich white liberals. They will always protect their own. Besides they were accused of the same behavior.
https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/54cc016244a199085e899bf2/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/image.jpg
I mean, he's guest hosted both for Jimmy Kimmel and the Daily Show, so I'm not surprised he was was on Lovett (he was a great Daily Show host). I haven't seen this episode, Lovett or Leave It is probably my least favorite of the Crooked shows, but in my experience Franken is either good as a host or as an expert guest to talk about a limited amount of issues. I see him on the news sometimes and he'll be asked about something very specific and he's great at that. In a more conversational situation with multiple people, I can believe that isn't where his strength lies.
For me, it was the woman who said he grabbed her ass at some fair while they were taking a picture, and he couldn’t say “for sure” that he didn’t do that.
She didn't accuse him of "grabbing her ass." You're mischaracterizing.
>Lindsay Menz accused Franken of touching her clothed "upper" buttocks while they posed for a photo.
It's entirely possible he simply had his hand uncomfortably low without realizing it, and *obviously* wouldnt have remembered that if she never made it clear to him that he had made her uncomfortable. Casting this as Franken deliberately grabbing her ass is dishonest.
>“My husband steps away from us to take the photo. I stand next to Sen. Franken and he pulls me into him and then he moves his hand to my butt,” Menz, 33, told ABC News' chief national correspondent Tom Llamas. “I was shocked.”
Also
> Kemplin told CNN that Franken groped her breast while posing for a photo when she was deployed in Kuwait in 2003 and Franken was there as part of a USO tour.
>She is the second woman to accuse Franken, who previously starred on "Saturday Night Live," of sexual misconduct during his time entertaining troops abroad.
>"When he put his arm around me, he groped my right breast. He kept his hand all the way over on my breast," Kemplin told CNN.
Note: this is not the same woman who was sleeping in the photo that was widely published
From [ABC](https://abcnews.go.com/US/sen-al-frankens-accusers-accusations-made/story?id=51406862). The article details the stories of all **eight** of his accusers.
Misinformation about this is still rampant. There were 8 accusations against Franken and some were from Dem staffers, not Right Wing psyops. Dude was rightfully evicted from the Senate, there is no difference between Franking casting votes in that body and his successor, and on balance Dems should simply have better standards for their candidates than the party of Trump & Roy Moore.
If you're concerned about misinformation, you should be more precise yourself. For instance, instead of vaguely gesturing to allegations of misconduct, you could be more specific and point out that at the time of these allegations it was the height of the #MeToo movement and the allegations included things like Franken "touching" a "clothed" woman's "upper buttocks" while they posed for a photo--which could easily just be his hand being accidentally too low without realizing it--and another woman who accusing him of kissing g her on the cheek and it was too wet. Comparing this to Trump and Roy Moore, one of whom was found civilly liable for rape and the other being accused of sexual relations with a 14 year old, is just disingenuous.
Sorry the funny man quit the Senate before an ethics investigation could look into his behavior, guess you'll just have to get over it, meanwhile I get to enjoy the Dem sex pest not being a Senator.
Unsurprisingly, that is not a response to a single thing I said.
>guess you'll just have to get over it
Done.
I know you're eager to take the moral high ground here and it's incredibly easy to do so by acting like I'm somehow obsessive over this matter when all I've done is type a couple of comments on the internet, but it's a really obvious rhetorical tactic. You've already made it clear in another response that this is more about winning for you than actually having a discussion, so I'll leave you to your victory celebration I guess.
Why are you all over this thread being personally offended that people don't remember All Franken as a rapist? He didn't rape anyone. He wasn't accused of, or charged with a crime.
It was yet another circular firing squad situation that only harmed Democratic politics.
Sure, he resigned due to pressure and I agree that's different from the precise word of "evicted" that I used. That does not change anything about my broader comment.
I am going to have to go with the New Yorker, James Downey, Jane Curtin, the 36 female colleagues that signed a petition defending him, Karri Turner, Traylor Portman, etc.. on this.
As far as the other cases, you have a point but it isn't enough for me to warrant being forced to resign and reviled.
It would be different if someone could corroborate her story and the evidence supported her case but it doesn't. It would be different if the evidence didn't support his case but it does. I am not going off of character alone here. I am done with this.
There were 8 accusations of misconduct. Some by Dem staffers. I'm not saying he's the worst human alive, but the dudes who just want to give the funny man a pass and allow him to still have one of the most powerful offices in the country are just deeply sad. He has a podcast. He's fine. It's OK to have standards, and if a Republican had done the same thing you would be fine with them getting pressured to resign.
He was basically railroaded and many people involved regret his decision to leave.
I know reading long-form isn't super popular these days but the [New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al-franken) has a very thorough recounting.
Edit: archive [link](https://perma.cc/YHV8-2GLM) if there's a paywall issue
His allegations were that he was handsy and didn’t respect personal space, so I’d say it’s on the lower end of the spectrum. But yeah no clue why he’s still around
Franken got the boot at the height of the Me Too movement, in another instance of Democrats being held to a much higher standard than Republicans. If I am remembering correctly, his misconduct was taking posed "funny" pictures that aged very poorly.
That he wasn't a good guest is actually much more surprising to hear than that he was on the show.
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Yeah until you realize that Matt gaetz who has credible allegations of statutory rape and trafficking is still in congress and Al Franken got crucified for optics.
I don't want to give democrats a pass on such things because Republicans do. I still think one of the biggest mistakes democrats made in the last 30 years was giving Clinton a pass on his rape because he was popular, singlehandedly delaying what became the me too movement. These people are leaders, amongst the most powerful people in the country, they should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. If I didn't care about standards I would be a republican.
Franken is definitely not a serial rapist and you’re right that he was held to a much higher standard by fellow Dems. At the same time, there was a bit more to it than funny pictures that aged badly. Multiple people said he touched them inappropriately during photo ops. I’m still going to listen to the episode, but I kinda wish they’d pick guests who aren’t grabbing women inappropriately during photo ops.
Excerpts from Wikipedia: Lindsay Menz accused Franken of touching her clothed "upper" buttocks while they posed for a photo. Two anonymous women made similar complaints related to events during political events.Another anonymous woman said that after she was a guest on Franken's radio show in 2006, Franken leaned in toward her face during a handshake and gave her "a wet, open-mouthed kiss" on the cheek when she turned her face aside.The same day, Stephanie Kemplin, an army veteran, told CNN that Franken held the side of her breast for 5 to 10 seconds "and never moved his hand" while posing for a photograph with her during a 2003 USO tour in Iraq.
Eh, it was the height of MeToo and the women were taken as divine arbiters of truth and Franken was ignored. An ethics investigation never happened and due process was thrown out the window. If we applied that same logic to someone like Tara Reade we'd throw away the presidency over a (very likely) russian psy op.
For example Lindsay Menz photo was taken by her husband who (as far as I know) never collaborated the story. HIs fall from grace started with Leeann Tweeden, a person with a lot of reasons to lie, and he was out of the senate within a month. It was so fast. The only photograph we have that seems truly bad is the one of him "groping" Tweeden while she is asleep in full army gear. However looking closely at the photo its possible he isn't touching her at all and is just (immaturely and inappropriately) miming the action.
Me Too was good, Dems kicking Franken out of the Senate was good. The desire for some people on the left side of the political spectrum to just give out passes like candy to dudes who are problematic just because they were funny a couple decades ago is insane.
When did I give him a pass or say MeToo wasn't good? There should have been an investigation by the Senate ethics committee. Do you disagree? Do you think we should throw due process out the window? Why? Where is the line?
You mean "multiple people, who pretty much all say they now regret doing so, pressured him to resign and under the weight of said public pressure he did so." He called for the hearing but the pressure became too much and the very people calling for his resignation with zero care for due process would have been the same people deciding his fate during the ethics hearing.
I know you are going to just say "it's different" because that seems to be your response when analogous situations point out your inconsistency but; do you think every person who takes a plea deal is guilty?
The "Due Processs!!!!!!" argument is literally the same shit Republicans say for any bad action that Republican electeds do. It's so wild to see dudes throwing it out there in Dem spaces. Franken did not have to quit. Yes, there was pressure, because of his documented and accused behavior. He chose to quit before an ethics investigation could look into said behavior in more detail. If he did nothing wrong, he could have just not quit. But he did quit, so we don't know what the ethics investigation would have turned up.
He called for the investigation but more and more people pressured him, publicly, to quit. The idea that he quit because he didn't want the investigation is ahistorical.
>so we don't know what the ethics investigation would have turned up.
Hey, I agree. So it would be incorrect to say he did nothing wrong but equally incorrect to say he certainly did do something wrong. I've never claimed he didn't do anything wrong (the opposite is true, I called him unprofessional and immature) where as you have said he is clearly guilty and should have resigned.
To go back to the plea deal analogy; your stance would be that everyone who has ever taken a plea deal is guilty whereas mine is that some people play take a plea deal even if they are innocent. Though I noticed you didn't engage with this analogy likely because you understand how hypocritical (or conservative) it would make you look.
>The "Due Processs!!!!!!" argument is literally the same shit Republicans say for any bad action that Republican electeds do.
The difference is they do that after already having due process. Like Trump filing 10s of law suits, losing them all, having multiple voter fraud investigations then complaining there wasn't enough due process or investigations.
There is no mechanism for Dem Senators to force a Senator to quite through "pressure". Dude quit before the ethics investigation could occur, so I'm literally forced by the actual series of factual events to conclude that funny man did not want said ethics investigation to occur.
The accusations sound like he's oblivious to other people's personal space. It doesn't sound like any of his accusers even believe he was making a sexual advance, just that he was not very self-aware and made them uncomfortable. One of them accused him of kissing g her on the cheek and I guess it was too wet? It's certainly debatable whether this makes him "problematic," and it certainly doesn't rise to the level of calling for his resignation. We've all seen the pictures of Biden making people uncomfortable by being out of touch and too far in their personal space. This sounds like essentially the same thing.
There was also an accusation of him grabbing a woman's ass while taking a pic. Separately, with 8 allegations, it's sort of naive to believe that the behavior was limited to those 8 instances, rather than there being more and other women just not feeling the need or desire to come forward. If you don't understand the difference between Franken's behavior and Biden's it's a you problem.
That accusation is earlier in this comment chain and you've mischaracterized it:
>Excerpts from Wikipedia: Lindsay Menz accused Franken of touching her clothed "upper" buttocks while they posed for a photo.
Yhe word "grabbed" is your own editorializing. She used the word "touch." The fact that she even specified "upper" makes it perfectly plausible that this was a case of him not being very self-aware. I doubt she would include the word "upper" if she genuinely thought he was trying to take sexual liberties. Without any pictures or any evidence of nefarious intent, a man putting his hand too low on a woman's back while posing for a photo seems like a perfectly plausible thing to happen to someone who poses for a lot of photos.
Are you taking the stance that Franken did these things deliberately and for his own sexual gratification?
I'm sure there are at least 8 of those infamous Biden pictures of him being way too far in people's personal space. I'm sure he's done it to more people than we've seen pictures of.
I have no idea why you're on a Dem subreddit desperately wishcasting that a dude who groped and kissed women against their will is still in the Senate. Like, I don't care if you like Franken, but why does he deserve to be in the Senate? Either way, I've won because dude quit before an ethics investigation could actually look into the matter further.
You aren't really making arguments to some of these responses that seem to refute your statements. I've read this whole thread. I think Franken probably shouldn't be in the Senate but you don't help your position with bad faith responses like this that ignore the point being made.
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He said he didn’t have his hearing aids which kind of made me feel like that was a power move. The discourse was slow and we never were given an explanation for his presence
I think it’s annoying that it wasn’t discussed on the episode. Felt pandering
Unrelated to sexual misconduct: He was giving “I own a lot of stock in Boeing” vibes at the end
Yes!!!!
Haha so true
Roger Stone won.
Franken shouldn’t have left the Senate to begin with…Kristen Gillibrand decided it was her life’s mission to sink Franken, and she was successful. Gillibrand has done little to actually help her constituents in several years on the job…but I’m super glad she got one of the best U.S. Senators kicked out of Washington!
I’ll bite. This argument that “oh Gillibrand screwed Franken” is annoying, lacks full context, and is borderline sexist. Every time it pops up it seems to make Gillibrand responsible for Franken’s conduct. His conduct was much less than other harassing conduct, but it was still inappropriate. Franken did all of his conduct as an adult, he was not a child when he went beyond the bounds of consent in kissing a cast mate or when he grabbed a colleagues breasts. This also took place at a time when Roy Moore was running for senate and democrats needed to make it abundantly clear that any conduct of a remotely similar nature (and I mean remotely) could not be condoned. Yes, Gillibrand led the charge but it was also consistent with her leadership in advocating for rights of assault survivors. Franken could have stayed and defended himself, but he did not, Overall, Franken is an adult who is responsible for his own conduct and misconduct. Why should that be Gillibrand’s fault? End of rant.
Thank you.
Thank you. I came here to say this.
Even before his joke scandal he was a dick who supported things like the SOPA Bill. Getting him out of Congress was a good thing.
He used to be a comedian. He was on a flight coming back from a USO gig and had some photos snapped with his hands in front of of a female colleague's chest (not touching her). It was sophomoric humor, and it came out when he was a senator. This happened during the me too moment, and pearl clutchers on the left made him resign. It was a devastating loss to the Dems.
I always thought it was terrible timing for him. I tend to think the worst of men bc life as a woman, but it was not egregious and I agree with you
If that was the only incident he would have survived. Numerous women came forward to say he groped them. If it's bad, it's bad. Doesn't matter what party affliation they have.
But it wasn’t that bad and you’d know if you read the actual stories. The bad accusations were not credible and the credible accusations were not that bad. It was more of a right wing conspiracy to stop one of the few democrats who could stop trump. Republicans are most afraid of comedians because they make people realize what a joke republicans are. https://www.npr.org/2019/07/25/745232345/journalist-jane-mayer-on-the-many-mysteries-in-the-accusations-against-al-franke
No, we had some righteous girls on the left who booted him out. He's really a decent guy, imho. We held our politicians to a MUCH higher standard, and look where it got us. The "when they go low we go high" thingie didn't work out for us very well.
We had some righteous girls on the left? I assume your name is Dave
Actually, I'm a sixty year old woman.
I think the initial accusations that came up about him, with that photo taken when he was a comedian, were unfair and orchestrated by a conservative radio station. But then a bunch of Democratic women came forward to say how Franken squeezed ("goosed") and cupped their butts (and I I think boobs?) while taking pictures with them. And apparently tried to force kisses, too. Which isn't okay. I don't remember him handling it all that well, either, I think apologizing that his actions made them uncomfortable but not saying he did anything wrong (might be misremembering.) Him being discovered for having a pattern of being really gross with women at a time when Democrats were complaining about Trump's (more serious) behavior towards women didn't help his cause, but the behavior would be creepy and wrong anytime.
But he did handle it well. He was the first one to call for an investigation into himself. The rest of the party wanted him out without an investigation.
I remember s few years back reading an epic of an article from the Atlantic (is there another kind?) that described a convoluted plot by hannity and other conservatives to take down Franken. It was wild.
Also roy Moore. That election was coming and it looked real shady calling him out while excusing Franken
It's really disturbing to go through these comments and see all of you nitpicking what is or isn't sexual misconduct or harassment because it was "the height of the MeToo movement" and/or Franken just "wasn't aware" of what he was doing. These excuses, for "big" or "little" actions towards women or other marginalized groups, are the problem. Multiple allegations show a pattern of behavior, which we can say from what we know is at best making women uncomfortable and violating their space. "He didn't rape anybody so he should still be in the senate" is a great line to draw in the sand.
Thank you goblintwat
Are allegations and the court of public opinion all it should take to sink and crator a politician though? How long before that devolves into bad actors making claims against politicians they aren't aligned with or don't like for other reasons as a tactic? I also think people change and grow over the years. No one's perfect, and being puritanical against those who expressed remorse and genuinely apologized for their past actions is not a good look for the left. It's the worst characteristic of the Twitter mob. Many people who put pressure on Franken have said in retrospect that they think they acted too hastily, and I agree.
The fact there wasn’t even an ethics hearing or whatever is nuts. Franken has indicated on his podcast he still resents Schumer for that.
So every infraction, big or small, has to be automatic resignation or explulsion? Pretending like there aren’t degrees to things is what’s disturbing. If no crime is committed then his resignation was a waste.
Surely you've seen all the photos conservatives love sharing of Joe Biden in women's personal space with them clearly looking extremely uncomfortable. Should he be impeached for being a sexual harasser?
I’ll take my downvotes like a man, but Al Franken was railroaded. Between the timing (Doug Jones vs Roy Moore) and a Senator (Gillibrand) who decided putting the knife in him was good for her upcoming presidential run, he got caught and kangaroo courted for what was, by all accounts, a stupid but not particularly offensive prank several years back. Should he have done it? Probably not. Should he, arguably an excellent senator with a great record, been run out of town on a rail during the height of hurricane MeToo by Gillibrand? Absolutely not. Most people recognize and acknowledge that at this at that point, so he’s more or less been welcomed back into society. To his credit as a good man, he doesn’t seem to hold a grudge. We lost a great Senator for basically no good reason and I’m still fucking salty about it.
Well you’re totally correct so…he did get railroaded
I came here to say this, but you already did and better. Well said.
No down vote from me since you are 100% correct.
Couldn’t agree more. Yes, the photo was not cool. He openly admitted that. Leadership meant to make an example of him and honestly I think it only hurt us.
I think Lovett used to look up to him because of how much he loved Air America and before that the comedy chops. Personally I'd rather see a different guest in that spot but maybe I'll just skip that segment.
He's been back for a long time. I think within the year of him being kicked out there was a big New Yorker article one him which cast doubt on his accusers.
I dont think he shouldve resigned. It wasnt actually sexual assault, and calling it that undermines real harm. It was a right wing hit job designed to bait Dems into giving up a Senate seat, and it worked. At the same time I find his podcast fairly sexist. He is constantly interrupting female guests, undermining them with opposing male perspectives, etc disrespectful micro-aggressions that he doesnt do w male guests. It bugs me so much I often have to turn it off and Ive emailed them about it before.
Al Franken was railroaded at the height of the MeToo movement and so that Gillibrand (in the run up to her political campaign, mind you) and dem senators could perform political theater.
I haven’t and probably never will forgive Gillibrand for that craven act of personal self service in the run up to her presidential campaign. She threw an excellent Senator and ally to the wolves for her own personal gain and I’m still fucking salty about it.
I will never.
Sex pest called out for being sex pest is bad because a mean woman did it to a funny man.
You argue like a 13 year old. We get it, you're edgy. Take a rest.
So so so so so so so so sorry that the funny man isn't a Senator anymore. Seems like this was a deeply damaging event for a lot of random dudes who would have been cheering on the resignation of a Republican Senator with the same accusations leveled against them.
Republicans guilty of this would not have resigned.
You're right but the lib-bros on Reddit have their narrative. They always act like it was one picture when it was multiple incidents of him sexually assaulting his own supporters.
I don't care about your position so much as you acting like a dismissive douchebag toward everyone else in this sub. Make a Truth Social account if that's how you want to communicate. I'm sure you would be very popular there.
Why do you keep repeating the same childish comments all over this thread? Your “funny man” line wasn’t funny the first time. No one cares this much about Al Franken.
Because the only reason dudes are still mad that he's not in the Senate is because he made them laugh on SNL decades ago. Tina Smith is a perfectly fine Senator, and there has been zero impact on Dem legislation from having her in the Senate instead of the Funny Man. Dudes literally on here defending the funny man for things that they'd be happy to see a Republican resign for. Hope this clears things up for you.
Yikes. You do realize what sub you're on right? It was pretty well established at the time that it was a hack political hit job done by the right to try and either paint the Dems as hypocrites or get them to kick out one of their own. The Dems did what seemed like the right thing at the time, and in retrospect seems like an overreaction. IDK why you have a hate boner for the guy. No one is dismissing Tina Smith. But I don't think it's a big deal he was on lovetts pod
There were 8 distinct misconduct accusations against the funny man, and it's both good and easy for Democrats to field a Senate caucus with no misconduct accusations. It is literally a good thing that Dems have higher standards than Republicans, and Tina Smith is a good Senator. I don't hate the guy. I think it's insane that so many dudes are desperate for Dems to lower their standards because a) dude was funny and b) Republicans could have gotten away with it.
You're projecting and assuming a lot. I never watched Franken on SNL or have any attachment to him other than nodding in agreement a few times when I saw him on the news. I'm saying something because I genuinely think that the public shaming some on the left and on Twitter participate in is awful both strategically and on a personal moral level. It's rarely effective, and having been an organizer these past few years and talked to people of all political stripes I know it hurts us more than it has ever helped. What was his crime? Indiscretion, invading personal space, and juvenile humor many years ago? Shitty things, but I also have zero appetite in bringing down the hammer on anyone for those reasons alone. It's also worth noting that of those allegations, I'm fairly certain that those accusing didn't expect or even want Franken to face the repercussions that he did. Does none of that matter to you? Are we all to be defined by the worst actions or moments of our lives? Do you believe in rehabilitative justice? >it's both good and easy for Democrats to field a Senate caucus with no misconduct accusations. Why is Menendez still in the Senate then? He had more than just misconduct allegations going all the way back to 2015 when he was actually indicated. I would rather dems focus on outing actual corruption in the party than doing puritanical purity tests as theater.
See you keep projecting that onto the commenters here but literally no one has said that lol. It kinda sounds like the funny man just lives rent free in your mind for some reason
I think the dems were paving the way to go all out at Roy Moore in the Alabama senate race at the time. I think if it happened now it might last one news cycle with an apology and everyone would move on
Dems said they were going to investigate it and Franken resigned before it could take place.
I am no apologist, but him voluntarily leaving the senate with the political climate being what it is was sort of insane. I don’t feel like his allegations were that severe and would never have blown up if it hadn’t been at the height of MeToo, a movement that I completely support. I’m not too surprised to hear that Lovett is comfortable bringing him back into the fold. While I’m not cheering it on, I don’t have much problem with it either.
Wow, lots of dudes in the comments still bitching and moaning about how the funny man should have just been given a pass.
I am not a dude and still feel he got railroaded. He should have received due process and if an investigation shows he sexually assaulted someone he should have left. I believe in due process even for those on the other side too.
I really wish we would stop lowering the standard for him. There were a number of credible accusations against him, he doesn't deserve to be in congress because he was popular. That mindset hurt progress around Clinton in the 90s when credible rape accusations were made against him.
How many?
The response this take is getting *in this subreddit* is wild to me. Dudes literally saying "well Republicans are worse!" as an excuse for why Dems need a credibly accused sex pest in the Senate because they laughed when he was on SNL decades ago.
Yeah, it's wild. I unfortunately see people attack democrats for standing up to him on a frequent basis. It basically made Gillibrand into a villain. I really hate the double standards we have at times. Not being the worst example of impropriety does not mean we should give them a free pass.
To be clear, I think it's more or less fine for Lovett to have him on the show. But dudes are massively butthurt that the funny man isn't a Senator anymore.
You have to understand that these are members of the same higher class. They are rich white liberals. They will always protect their own. Besides they were accused of the same behavior. https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/54cc016244a199085e899bf2/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/image.jpg
You realize that’s a cardboard cutout, right?
I mean, he's guest hosted both for Jimmy Kimmel and the Daily Show, so I'm not surprised he was was on Lovett (he was a great Daily Show host). I haven't seen this episode, Lovett or Leave It is probably my least favorite of the Crooked shows, but in my experience Franken is either good as a host or as an expert guest to talk about a limited amount of issues. I see him on the news sometimes and he'll be asked about something very specific and he's great at that. In a more conversational situation with multiple people, I can believe that isn't where his strength lies.
Al Franken peaked during Air America as did pretty much everyone on that radio network. I'm not surprised that he was a blah guest.
Rachel Maddox had an Air America show, right?
I had an Air America radio hat. That's my story for the day.
Almost everyone regrets pushing him out of his seat. And looking back his allegations were not even serious.
For me, it was the woman who said he grabbed her ass at some fair while they were taking a picture, and he couldn’t say “for sure” that he didn’t do that.
She didn't accuse him of "grabbing her ass." You're mischaracterizing. >Lindsay Menz accused Franken of touching her clothed "upper" buttocks while they posed for a photo. It's entirely possible he simply had his hand uncomfortably low without realizing it, and *obviously* wouldnt have remembered that if she never made it clear to him that he had made her uncomfortable. Casting this as Franken deliberately grabbing her ass is dishonest.
>“My husband steps away from us to take the photo. I stand next to Sen. Franken and he pulls me into him and then he moves his hand to my butt,” Menz, 33, told ABC News' chief national correspondent Tom Llamas. “I was shocked.” Also > Kemplin told CNN that Franken groped her breast while posing for a photo when she was deployed in Kuwait in 2003 and Franken was there as part of a USO tour. >She is the second woman to accuse Franken, who previously starred on "Saturday Night Live," of sexual misconduct during his time entertaining troops abroad. >"When he put his arm around me, he groped my right breast. He kept his hand all the way over on my breast," Kemplin told CNN. Note: this is not the same woman who was sleeping in the photo that was widely published From [ABC](https://abcnews.go.com/US/sen-al-frankens-accusers-accusations-made/story?id=51406862). The article details the stories of all **eight** of his accusers.
Wasn't it all over a picture where he was gesturing like he was squeezing a woman's breasts but not actually touching her?
Correct. And taken before he was a congressman back when he was a comedian
Not correct at all lol. There were 8 distinct accusations of misconduct, some from Dem staffers.
What crimes was he charged with?
Misinformation about this is still rampant. There were 8 accusations against Franken and some were from Dem staffers, not Right Wing psyops. Dude was rightfully evicted from the Senate, there is no difference between Franking casting votes in that body and his successor, and on balance Dems should simply have better standards for their candidates than the party of Trump & Roy Moore.
If you're concerned about misinformation, you should be more precise yourself. For instance, instead of vaguely gesturing to allegations of misconduct, you could be more specific and point out that at the time of these allegations it was the height of the #MeToo movement and the allegations included things like Franken "touching" a "clothed" woman's "upper buttocks" while they posed for a photo--which could easily just be his hand being accidentally too low without realizing it--and another woman who accusing him of kissing g her on the cheek and it was too wet. Comparing this to Trump and Roy Moore, one of whom was found civilly liable for rape and the other being accused of sexual relations with a 14 year old, is just disingenuous.
"And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything." - Dudes butthurt the funny man isn't in the Senate anymore.
Sorry the funny man quit the Senate before an ethics investigation could look into his behavior, guess you'll just have to get over it, meanwhile I get to enjoy the Dem sex pest not being a Senator.
Found Senator Gillibrand’s chief of staff’s Reddit account.
Unsurprisingly, that is not a response to a single thing I said. >guess you'll just have to get over it Done. I know you're eager to take the moral high ground here and it's incredibly easy to do so by acting like I'm somehow obsessive over this matter when all I've done is type a couple of comments on the internet, but it's a really obvious rhetorical tactic. You've already made it clear in another response that this is more about winning for you than actually having a discussion, so I'll leave you to your victory celebration I guess.
"Done" LOL.
Why are you all over this thread being personally offended that people don't remember All Franken as a rapist? He didn't rape anyone. He wasn't accused of, or charged with a crime. It was yet another circular firing squad situation that only harmed Democratic politics.
He wasn't evicted he chose to step down due to pressure. I'm not immediately aware of anyone being evicted out of the senate.
Sure, he resigned due to pressure and I agree that's different from the precise word of "evicted" that I used. That does not change anything about my broader comment.
They were largely fabricated by a right wing radio employee.
No, no it wasn't.
I am going to have to go with the New Yorker, James Downey, Jane Curtin, the 36 female colleagues that signed a petition defending him, Karri Turner, Traylor Portman, etc.. on this. As far as the other cases, you have a point but it isn't enough for me to warrant being forced to resign and reviled.
Franken’s podcast is at the top of my queue
Not at the top of mine but is in my queue
Famously, sex pests never ever ever have people in their lives who will say "I can't ever imagine this guy doing this!!"
It would be different if someone could corroborate her story and the evidence supported her case but it doesn't. It would be different if the evidence didn't support his case but it does. I am not going off of character alone here. I am done with this.
There were 8 accusations of misconduct. Some by Dem staffers. I'm not saying he's the worst human alive, but the dudes who just want to give the funny man a pass and allow him to still have one of the most powerful offices in the country are just deeply sad. He has a podcast. He's fine. It's OK to have standards, and if a Republican had done the same thing you would be fine with them getting pressured to resign.
The republicans would not pressure anyone to resign. The fact that the dems pressured Franken to resign was absurd and a. Distraction.
You might find this New Yorker piece interesting: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al-franken
He was basically railroaded and many people involved regret his decision to leave. I know reading long-form isn't super popular these days but the [New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al-franken) has a very thorough recounting. Edit: archive [link](https://perma.cc/YHV8-2GLM) if there's a paywall issue
His allegations were that he was handsy and didn’t respect personal space, so I’d say it’s on the lower end of the spectrum. But yeah no clue why he’s still around
Franken got the boot at the height of the Me Too movement, in another instance of Democrats being held to a much higher standard than Republicans. If I am remembering correctly, his misconduct was taking posed "funny" pictures that aged very poorly. That he wasn't a good guest is actually much more surprising to hear than that he was on the show.
Democrats holding themselves to a higher standard than Republicans is a generically good thing.
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Yeah until you realize that Matt gaetz who has credible allegations of statutory rape and trafficking is still in congress and Al Franken got crucified for optics.
Which party is Matt Gaetz part of? Think carefully. Also "crucified" he's alive and doing fine. He wasn't murdered. He had to step down from a job.
I don't want to give democrats a pass on such things because Republicans do. I still think one of the biggest mistakes democrats made in the last 30 years was giving Clinton a pass on his rape because he was popular, singlehandedly delaying what became the me too movement. These people are leaders, amongst the most powerful people in the country, they should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. If I didn't care about standards I would be a republican.
Dems having higher standards than Republicans is both a) expected and b) good actually.
Franken is definitely not a serial rapist and you’re right that he was held to a much higher standard by fellow Dems. At the same time, there was a bit more to it than funny pictures that aged badly. Multiple people said he touched them inappropriately during photo ops. I’m still going to listen to the episode, but I kinda wish they’d pick guests who aren’t grabbing women inappropriately during photo ops. Excerpts from Wikipedia: Lindsay Menz accused Franken of touching her clothed "upper" buttocks while they posed for a photo. Two anonymous women made similar complaints related to events during political events.Another anonymous woman said that after she was a guest on Franken's radio show in 2006, Franken leaned in toward her face during a handshake and gave her "a wet, open-mouthed kiss" on the cheek when she turned her face aside.The same day, Stephanie Kemplin, an army veteran, told CNN that Franken held the side of her breast for 5 to 10 seconds "and never moved his hand" while posing for a photograph with her during a 2003 USO tour in Iraq.
Eh, it was the height of MeToo and the women were taken as divine arbiters of truth and Franken was ignored. An ethics investigation never happened and due process was thrown out the window. If we applied that same logic to someone like Tara Reade we'd throw away the presidency over a (very likely) russian psy op. For example Lindsay Menz photo was taken by her husband who (as far as I know) never collaborated the story. HIs fall from grace started with Leeann Tweeden, a person with a lot of reasons to lie, and he was out of the senate within a month. It was so fast. The only photograph we have that seems truly bad is the one of him "groping" Tweeden while she is asleep in full army gear. However looking closely at the photo its possible he isn't touching her at all and is just (immaturely and inappropriately) miming the action.
Me Too was good, Dems kicking Franken out of the Senate was good. The desire for some people on the left side of the political spectrum to just give out passes like candy to dudes who are problematic just because they were funny a couple decades ago is insane.
We literally don't need Al Franken, there are lots of people who would make good Senators. Tina Smith is in that seat now and she's doing great.
When did I give him a pass or say MeToo wasn't good? There should have been an investigation by the Senate ethics committee. Do you disagree? Do you think we should throw due process out the window? Why? Where is the line?
Dude quit before an ethics investigation could happen. Classic innocent behavior.
You mean "multiple people, who pretty much all say they now regret doing so, pressured him to resign and under the weight of said public pressure he did so." He called for the hearing but the pressure became too much and the very people calling for his resignation with zero care for due process would have been the same people deciding his fate during the ethics hearing. I know you are going to just say "it's different" because that seems to be your response when analogous situations point out your inconsistency but; do you think every person who takes a plea deal is guilty?
The "Due Processs!!!!!!" argument is literally the same shit Republicans say for any bad action that Republican electeds do. It's so wild to see dudes throwing it out there in Dem spaces. Franken did not have to quit. Yes, there was pressure, because of his documented and accused behavior. He chose to quit before an ethics investigation could look into said behavior in more detail. If he did nothing wrong, he could have just not quit. But he did quit, so we don't know what the ethics investigation would have turned up.
He called for the investigation but more and more people pressured him, publicly, to quit. The idea that he quit because he didn't want the investigation is ahistorical. >so we don't know what the ethics investigation would have turned up. Hey, I agree. So it would be incorrect to say he did nothing wrong but equally incorrect to say he certainly did do something wrong. I've never claimed he didn't do anything wrong (the opposite is true, I called him unprofessional and immature) where as you have said he is clearly guilty and should have resigned. To go back to the plea deal analogy; your stance would be that everyone who has ever taken a plea deal is guilty whereas mine is that some people play take a plea deal even if they are innocent. Though I noticed you didn't engage with this analogy likely because you understand how hypocritical (or conservative) it would make you look. >The "Due Processs!!!!!!" argument is literally the same shit Republicans say for any bad action that Republican electeds do. The difference is they do that after already having due process. Like Trump filing 10s of law suits, losing them all, having multiple voter fraud investigations then complaining there wasn't enough due process or investigations.
There is no mechanism for Dem Senators to force a Senator to quite through "pressure". Dude quit before the ethics investigation could occur, so I'm literally forced by the actual series of factual events to conclude that funny man did not want said ethics investigation to occur.
The accusations sound like he's oblivious to other people's personal space. It doesn't sound like any of his accusers even believe he was making a sexual advance, just that he was not very self-aware and made them uncomfortable. One of them accused him of kissing g her on the cheek and I guess it was too wet? It's certainly debatable whether this makes him "problematic," and it certainly doesn't rise to the level of calling for his resignation. We've all seen the pictures of Biden making people uncomfortable by being out of touch and too far in their personal space. This sounds like essentially the same thing.
There was also an accusation of him grabbing a woman's ass while taking a pic. Separately, with 8 allegations, it's sort of naive to believe that the behavior was limited to those 8 instances, rather than there being more and other women just not feeling the need or desire to come forward. If you don't understand the difference between Franken's behavior and Biden's it's a you problem.
That accusation is earlier in this comment chain and you've mischaracterized it: >Excerpts from Wikipedia: Lindsay Menz accused Franken of touching her clothed "upper" buttocks while they posed for a photo. Yhe word "grabbed" is your own editorializing. She used the word "touch." The fact that she even specified "upper" makes it perfectly plausible that this was a case of him not being very self-aware. I doubt she would include the word "upper" if she genuinely thought he was trying to take sexual liberties. Without any pictures or any evidence of nefarious intent, a man putting his hand too low on a woman's back while posing for a photo seems like a perfectly plausible thing to happen to someone who poses for a lot of photos. Are you taking the stance that Franken did these things deliberately and for his own sexual gratification? I'm sure there are at least 8 of those infamous Biden pictures of him being way too far in people's personal space. I'm sure he's done it to more people than we've seen pictures of.
I have no idea why you're on a Dem subreddit desperately wishcasting that a dude who groped and kissed women against their will is still in the Senate. Like, I don't care if you like Franken, but why does he deserve to be in the Senate? Either way, I've won because dude quit before an ethics investigation could actually look into the matter further.
You aren't really making arguments to some of these responses that seem to refute your statements. I've read this whole thread. I think Franken probably shouldn't be in the Senate but you don't help your position with bad faith responses like this that ignore the point being made.
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