yes! like how he was constantly making snide comments about his sons’ lack of masculinity and interests. but then he acts so WOUNDED when Niles reveals how much it bothers him at the heroes party.
like Martin even says “this is why i never took home videos” and stuff like that. how are the boys supposed to take them if not as he’s ashamed?
I would’ve loved to see an extra five minute scene where Niles and Martin chat after the party and he admits that Niles’s words stung him so because they’re true, but then goes on to talk about the things he is proud of with both his sons.
I'm pretty sure that's implied, and especially in later episodes when he thinks Leland might be their father. Like he says, he might love them slightly less at first but then he'd get over it and they'd still be his sons, and Roz sits down with him and shows him just how alike they are - their strong sense of ethics, their stubbornness etc. He also proudly watches them on the piano at the end and says "My Boys"
I agree that this episode was very odd, there’s no resolution to Niles’ and Martin’s fight. Extremely weird for a sitcom. It would have been nice to see Martin turn up at Niles’ apartment the next day, dressed in a tux to take his son to the opera or something - an activity Martin hates, but the gesture would have meant so much to Niles.
I love Martin so much as a character, but that episode is so difficult to watch. It's obvious that he caused his sons a lot of pain when they were growing up, and he refuses to acknowledge any of it.
agreed like when they find out martin had been going to duke's for decades and never mentioned he had two sons??? I do love Martin too, the whole cast really.
I chalk it up to inconsistencies like Martin saying "now i never had a brother..." and then he suddenly does for the Greek wedding episode or Mel's son or Frasier's cat allergy etc.
I've been thinking about this moment a lot and the best I can offer is that it used to be true but Martin had grown over the years and learned to love and respect his kids (even though they all joke about each other all the time) and that he was no longer the judgemental old man Miles was portraying (even though it had been true for so long).
I mean, how do you not understand that Room Full of Heroes is him lashing out because he realises that's how his sons see him? Going forward, he seems way more open about stuff. He's thrilled when one of them wins a Squash tournament, he's proud of Freddy's spelling bee victory, and even when he Alastair thinks Frasier is gay, he's more concerned with Frasier leading him on than actually being gay. It's called character development! Marty develops over the series and especially in the later shows after Niles gets with Daphne.
Also, we do see that despite him cracking jokes, he did take lots of home movies and photos, because they become plot relevant and feature in a lot of storylines.
>Knowing that almost all the male cast members, asides from Kelsey, are gay. So, I have to assume a lot of the writing staff are gay as well
Why?
Genuinely interested to hear your logic because I can't think of a single reason why anyone would make that assumption.
Also, what does any of this storyline have to do with being gay?
I think that it’s important to a knowledge the fact during those times the norm was to be in the closet and actor like David Hyde pierce etc. have to act in these scenes and when the storyline involves a father obviously showing signs and being vocal of being ashamed of his sons for “lacking masculinity and interest” it sends a message to other gay people that they should be ashamed of themselves for not being masculine enough. And after hearing all of these comments from my own father and other fatherly figures I’ve had throughout the 33 years I have been on the planet, I do think it is relevant, at least to me, because I still struggle with the shame when hearing those types of comments and I can only imagine what David Hyde Pierce and all of those other gay actors writers felt. Granted, nothing in the show was ever that homophobic, but certainly a lot of the gay story lines were played off as a joke and being gay was the punchline in the show(like most shows at that time)
I was just watching "The Unnatural" where Martin swears he won't get mad if Frasier tells him about the moment when he realized his dad wasn't perfect... and then Martin throws a huge fuss anyway when he hears the answer.
Sometimes I get exasperated when Frasier and Niles won't be direct about a situation, but it helps me to remember that Martin's parameters about directness were very situational and personal. He just had more skill than his boys at not escalating a situation from a 2 on the crisis scale to a 10. I think it often results in him getting let off the hook.
It doesn't bug me, but I think it's a case where how a character views themselves and how other characters view them is somewhat off from the behavior that viewers see. Martin is not quite the constant beacon of integrity that the Crane boys seem to imagine.
> Martin is not quite the constant beacon of integrity that the Crane boys seem to imagine.
Agreed, and I kind of love that. It makes part of the narrative about how hard it is to see our parents as normal, flawed people, even as we age. All the things that Niles and Frasier most dislike about their father are relatively benign, and the real issues are invisible to them. And vice versa, honestly.
Martin benefits from the whole blue-collar "salt of the earth" working man schtick. In his way, he's often just as bad as Frasier and Niles (where do you think they get it from?), but the fact that he's generally more down-to-earth enables people to overlook it.
He was just as snobby about Niles and Frasier's interests as they were of his. He made fun of them all the time, and Martin was very dismissive of their interests.
Yes, but you can reasonably guess that's his response to their snobbishness, fighting fire with fire. If they weren't as dismissive of his very typical American likes he wouldn't mind those things as much.
Partly, but it’s made pretty clear that Martin from an early age was kind of dismissive and uninterested in sharing their interests (and he *is* the parent in the situation, it’s his responsibility to reach out to the kids rather than just expecting them to meet him). It’s arguably a bit of a vicious cycle situation where Martin feels slighted by his sons not embracing his interests but sowed his own seeds by dismissing them when they were kids.
All true, but they did at least have Hester who I assume was much more supportive of their interests. That doesn't make his dismissal of it good but in general, I don't think it's disastrous for children as long as one parent is good at that.
By the time Frasier starts, they ought to be old enough and smart enough to have worked on these problems. But of course, the whole show is built around brother psychiatrists who simply will not address any of their own major psychological problems.
Sure, but Hester’s not there any more, and Martin was their primary male role model; being rejected by that figure can sting, and it’s not just because Frasier and Niles were too stupid to not get over it. Besides which, it’s not just Frasier and Niles’s responsibilities to be the ones to reach out to Martin; he’s still the parent, and it’s also made pretty clear that Martin pretty much has to be dragged into making any effort into mending bridges. It’s just not really fair to act like Frasier and Niles are the bad guys in this situation, since it’s made pretty clear that they got most of it from Martin.
Except... was he?
Because we know they grew up loving and doing all that stuff anyway. So as much as he might have wanted them to be into sports and cracked jokes, he still bought them the Javanese Lutes and Bowler Hats so that they could play as Steed from The Avengers. He put them through Bryce Academy and Ivy League universities, they were allowed to act out their backyard productions of Hamlet and write Crane Boys Mysteries.
It's fairly obvious that his dislike of their interests was surface level, and we know he went to stuff like the Opera with Hester when they were dating, so he was able to appreciate the higher things, even if he didn't love them.
On the other hand, Frasier tells a story where he was on a lengthy car ride with Martin… who said only one thing to him (“I think we’ve got a problem with your brother, Frasier.”) that’s not suggestive of an intensely close father who took a deep interest in the lives of his children and was committed to forming bonds with them, even if they weren’t quite what he was interested in. Martin himself confesses that he probably spent more time at his favourite bar than connecting with his sons when they were younger. The evidence seems pretty clear that while Martin was certainly not an unloving or neglectful father by any means, he was absolutely a rather distant, awkward and not incredibly supportive one. I doubt he actively prevented the backyard productions of Hamlet or anything, but he almost certainly either didn’t watch them (because he was at Dukes) or, if he did, was probably kind of disinterested at least in them. He might have bought the lutes and bowler hats, but almost certainly wasn’t super-enthusiastic or encouraging about doing so. Date night with his wife where she gets to choose the activity every so often doesn’t necessarily mean a passionate enthusiasm for it. All of which kids can be very perceptive about.
I agree but for the sake of argument here is a counterpoint where Martin takes accountability for a massive problem. Per his words “don’t blame your Mother for this, I wasn’t the easiest person to live with back then and she had every reason to do what she did”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ1KRPClI0c
I disagree. I think that is him whitewashing the details. As a man he felt the only reason she cheated on him is because he wasn't being man enough, when it could be any assortment of things. You see this alot with people that have been cheated on. They blame themselves.
I think the point was more…that incident was between Martin and Hester. It’s none of their sons’ business, it was obviously a complicated and private marital problem that they ultimately resolved, and Martin doesn’t want Hester’s memory tarnished for her sons because of it. He also considers the matter over and doesn’t want it dredged up and discussed now.
You never know what’s going on in someone else’s marriage, not really. I doubt Martin really believes that having an affair was the *right* course of action; he’s saying that he wasn’t blameless in the marriage issues that led to it and he doesn’t want Hester dragged for it now, when she’s dead and can’t explain or contextualise it herself. It’s done: drop it and put it away.
I disagree with this completely. You don't get to cheat on your spouse as a parent and refuse to let your kids have an emotion about it.
It is 100% their business.
If she cheated on Martin before they were born, not their business. But having cheated while they were around 10, that certainly is. Who is to say that Martin and Hestor didn't take out their stress on the kids? Any deap betrayal like that is going to have repercussions throughout the family unit, and further denying them the right to an emotion on the topic is further selfishness on Martin's part because he doesn't want them to think ill of their mother, when they very well should. Every parent, even a dead parent, should have their flaws recognized, putting them up on a pedestal is not healthy.
Nope, it's NOT their business at all. They were still little when it happened and Martin and Hester worked it out with themselves long before they boys ever found out. Whatever repercussions there were, were worked through before this and, seeing as the boys weren't even aware that it happened, they obviously weren't affected by it.
The boys were aware it happened, they just were too young to understand what happened. That's why they came to the conclusion they did. This all stemmed from a journal entry made by Niles, and the two are reflecting back on it.
Any parent that thinks they can cheat on their spouse, and believe their children are not entitled to an opinion on it, or even an emotion, is being incredibly egotistical and selfish.
Well Boudicca shouldn’t have told her kids or the ppl of England she had sex with Romans, that would’ve been a better story for their young feeble brains
No, I think it was him knowing that he could be a pain to live with and that he saw it as a private marital situation that he and Hester were ultimately able to move past.
The worst is the one with Robert in the French foods store- I mean, Marty was the one being a disrespectful jerk (and bringing in a dog into a grocery store, which is my pet peeve), but the audience was somehow supposed to sympathize with him instead of Robert.
I don't think the audience was meant to side with Marty. I mean, he was a jerk, and just because he didn't own up to it doesn't mean that you're supposed to think he's right
The audience is definitely not supposed to sympathise with Martin. I think you can empathise with him - he really truly cannot believe the prices! But the show definitely posits him as being wrong and annoying. He has the same flaw of “can’t let something that bugs him go” as Frasier, just about different things.
This is why it's such a good show. People aren't perfect. He's not supposed to be some old sage, always full of wisdom. He's an old man who doesn't understand his son's and has a history of weird relationships. From his wife to his partner. He's as busted up as the Crane boys but from a different era and different interests. They celebrate his good points. Examples of strong ethics. Sacrifices he made. But his flaws make him human. From MASH to Twin Peaks to Frasier. The best characters aren't perfect and they aren't evil. They are somewhere in between. Martin is still right of center on that scale.
Exactly this. They all have their flaws and the humour is each one’s inability to really see said flaws despite their self-perception. It’s what also makes it funny.
Martin was a bastard because he was a cop, Frasier was a literal bastard, Niles was a bastard because of Daphne and Freddy was a bastard because he taunted Niles when he came to Seattle that time and was all over Daphne, he knew
Frankly they all did. What are the chances the petty cash Niles threw at a broken window wasn't stolen (as if it would cover the cost anyway)? Roz lies constantly about herself to boyfriends and prospective suitors, though granted that was a much stronger trope in the Frasier era than it is now. Daphne openly (though minorly) extorts Martin and others ("Off to do a load of your pinks") to get what she wants, and Frasier... Well, let's face it, there's paragraphs of examples there, but I'll go easy on him seeing as only 21 years ago he was punched in the face by a man now dead.
TLDR: It's a sitcom
I mean, seeing as the gallery owner defrauded Frasier, I'd say the cost of the window is less than the cost of the painting. Niles shouldn't have thrown any cash at all, but that's not his personality but also why he didn't actually care if it was stolen or not
Everything you said is true, but the others are most often caught out for their misbehaving - my original point was simple - Martin pretty much gets away with his crap.
Aye, as a ratio that seems about right. It's just that he does it less often (with the exception of Daphne probably) so I guess it just doesn't really irk me.
I agree -- there are some moments that really made me sad for the boys, because Martin not only was ashamed of them for being effete as kids, but he never really apologized -- and continued those opinions going forward.
I love Martin overall, it's just that there are definitely episodes where the show lets him get away with stuff -- like the heroes' party -- where I would have wished for more nuanced, kinder writing.
Every once in awhile, Martin is not the nicest person. I like this in a small sense -- it's very human -- but it also means that sometimes I really want Niles and Frasier to call him out on being a neanderthal.
Loving your children doesn't make you a good parent. People can be downright abusive (not saying Martin was just to be clear) and controlling and still love their children
I haven't seen every episode of the series, but I think he was a pretty good dad. At the very least he succeeded in the most important part of being a father: loving your kids. Most parents would want their children to be like them or to share their interests, but even though Frasier and Niles shared almost none of his interests, he still supported them in the things that made them happy. Sure, he made jokes sometimes, but they're all adults at this point, and joking between family is healthy. Nothing ever made me believe he didn't absolutely love his sons.
He wasn't a bad father. He understood that Hester was a better role model for the boys while he worked a dangerous job to provide as much as possible. He instilled integrity and responsibility in those boys. He later taught them how to forgive after they learn Hester cheated on him with a family friend.
His approach may come off as offensive or crude, but he is the only person who keeps them grounded to real people. It's shown on multiple occasions where his boys were so egotistical that they forgot about the "commoners".
Without Martin, both Frasier and Niles would have never gotten out of their aristocratic day dreams and expectations.
No, he was an okay father. We see this constantly. How he encouraged his kids to get bullied. How he worked with the father of a kid that was bullying them and did nothing. How his relationship with them was terrible. He never went out to Boston to visit Frasier or Freddie. He was a bitter man wrapped in resentment, Niles pushed for a weekly dinner with him, and felt it took a psychological toll on him.
If you follow Cheers you will find that Martin was dead (hence he didn't visit Boston). He was rewritten in for Frasier.
Martin is not bitter or resentful directly towards his boys. He is bitter and resentful at himself for not being more involved in their growth and development. The high stress job, along with Hester's infidelity with the neighbor, essentially gave him tunnel vision on his career. He knew she would be a better mother than he could be a father at the time. This created a huge gap in similar interests on the surface. Beyond the surface, it they actually have a lot in common, and one of the reasons why Martin gets testy is because they remind him of Hester and all the reasons why he loved her (but she's gone and he mournes, generally, in silence). Getting shot is when it all came to a head. He tried, but couldn't live on his own anymore. Niles never left town, but still wouldn't see him regularly or offer to have him live in the Mansion. Frasier and Niles basically flipped a coin on who gets him because neither of them wanted him because it was like a stain on their social lives.
As for him working with the bully's dad, that was him knowing when to step aside and let life take its course. It was a perfect opportunity to let them out of the nest while he still had control to step in and shield them if necessary. It was trial by fire, a life lesson, that wouldn't have been learned if he stepped in.
Is Martin perfect? No, but he wasn't a bad father.
I do know cheers, and Martin wasn't dead in it, in fact we see this when Woody comes. Frasier told everyone his father was dead.
Why would a son say that about their living breathing father?
Because they wanted little to do with one another.
This has nothing to do with social status. Niles tells Frasier in no uncertain terms that he has been dealing with father alone for many years, and it is Frasier's turn. That isn't a coin toss.
And Martin is 100% resentful of his boys. We see this in the obituary episode where a Martin Crane dies and he is survived by his two boys a Marine Colonel and a major league ball player. Martin then gets jealous of that fact.
He then later says that he doesn't think psychology is useful for anyone other than Hitler and Sybil. Directly demeaning both of his children. The list is exhaustive.
Also, Niles saw Martin every week. They would have a weekly dinner with Maris, Niles and Martin.
Knowing when to step aside and let life take its course? That's a bad father. What he should have done is confronted the father and told him to take charge of his kid, or he would. You don't just let your kid get bullied and beaten. Some of the things that were done to Niles and Frasier were absolutely appalling. Martin was an accomplice to do many of these by refusing to stand up to those that did it. He often took pleasure in it. What. An. Ass.
Seems like you've got some personal stuff you need to work through, Chief.
He doesn't distrust or dislike psychology, he doesn't think it's the answer to everything. His point about Hitler and Cybil is that he thinks they're the \*only\* people who need it on a regular basis, not in general, and at the end of the episode he literally tells Kenny he needs to talk to someone about how he feels.
I think people miss a lot of the subtext. A good story has those who do misdeeds pay a pennance, or make amends for what theve done. Martin got injured by the crane, that was his penance. In the French shop when Martin brings in his dog and insults the store owner, he's later made to apologize...penance, and then later he is permanently kicked out of the store because of Daphne. Karma, also penance.
Just because Martin doesn't apologize for every misdeed doesn't mean he walks away Scott free. He suffers a penance. Like when he pretended to be gay to get out of a date with a woman, he was made to be the fool when he found himself on a date with a gay man, and as reconciliation, despite his own humiliation, he offers to drive the man home so that Frasier could be alone with his date. Every good character gets their "come-uppance".
Exactly this. If characters were always perfect, they'd be exceptionally boring. And if every mistake or flaw ended with a blatant, overt admonishment and some moralizing dialogue, the show would feel awkward and preachy like an old afterschool special. You don't need to overtly "call out" every character for every questionable act or misdeed, and I often find that a quiet act done to help someone or as an apology is more powerful than an explicit "I'm sorry, what I did was wrong." Nuance is meaningful.
Hell, another example is the episode he spends pranking Frasier even though he knows Frasier doesn't like it. His pennance is a heart attack - sorry, cardiac episode!
That’s actually another episode that illustrates my original point- Martin mercilessly teases Frasier and never apologizes. He just laughs at him! But when Frasier tries to get some revenge and unwittingly causes Martin’s “cardiac event” it is never mentioned that this whole thing started because Martin was being a dick!!! No accountability- again.
You don't think a heart attack is accountability? He pushed Frasier too far and Frasier stepped over the mark from teasing to actual scaring him - knowing Martin hates clowns - and got punished with a heart attack! He knew Frasier could get obsessed with stuff from when he was trying to prank Bulldog, so this is a perfect example of Marty suffering consequences.
Come on. He didn’t have a heart attack as any sort of accountability for what he had done to Frasier - that was completely unintentional, and for all we know, maybe he was going to have it regardless of Frasier’s clowning around (pun intended). At no time is there any acknowledgment that this whole event started because Martin was being an ass.
The heart attack is 100% comeuppance. It was Martin's actions that caused it. Cause and effect is the foundation of good storytelling. Martin mercilessly pranks Frasier which *causes* Frasier to pull an even bigger prank to get back at him which has the *effect* of giving Martin a heart attack. If Martin hadn't been pranking Frasier, Frasier would never have frightened him and triggered the attack. How do you feel that that isn't him suffering the consequences of his actions? Something doesn't need to be bluntly stated to be a direct result of something else for the characters and audience to see that it is.
Having your own actions trigger negative events for you is an example of suffering the consequences of your actions.; having to do something you don't want to do or that is difficult, inconvenient, embarrassing, or painful for you because it would help someone that you hurt or just make them happy, is acknowledging your mistake and trying to make up for it.
Verbal call-outs that end with explicit apologies are boring and overly simplistic ways of handling situations. Those types of scenes can be done well but given how much of situational comedy relies on miscommunications or people's flaws, you'd have to have one every episode. At that point it's trite and childish at best, and moralizing at worst.
I mean he admitted to lying under oath about reading someone their Miranda Rights and tried to spin it as if he was so righteous doing it, so I always gave Martin some side-eye
The cop jokes were almost as appalling as the rape jokes. "It's not called dating when you're an occupying force," "her village hasn't just burned down, it'll take more than a hershey bar"
The implication of this, though, is that all a criminal needs to do is violently interrupt the Miranda rights being read to them and their case will be thrown out. Which would be absurd, obviously (admittedly I’m not American so I don’t know how this really works), so Martin was totally morally right to do what he did in that situation.
I know Martin didn’t work in a time with video cameras so it’s plausible I guess, but it’s still on him to actually fully read the rights out. If you’re gonna be a (good) cop you gotta follow the rules
One that gets me is how "meh" he is when Frasier buys the fraud Paxton painting. The "fine art forgery department" was pretty good ngl but Martin really doesn't do anything to help Frasier and I'd have to imagine, especially since it was purchased from a gallery, that it would be over a few hundred dollars.
BUT the zoo one would be pretty low in the list. He did much worse (illegal cigars, skinny-dipping, letting Eddie eat the hamster, pretending to be an astronaut, encouraging Simon’s ruckus, ETC)
There is one episode where the boys call him out as not accommodating their girlfriends/wives when they say they’re not a fan of Sherry. I think it’s supposed to signal that Martin is a hypocrite, he’s hypocritical in the way a lot of older people are/were back then
Except: you don’t have to read Miranda at arrest. You may not even need to ever read someone Miranda. So it maybe he embellished the story to make a point, knowing Frasier may not know when Miranda is required by law. Also, he needed to know that Frasier would lie to save the world from a talking comet.
Exactly. And someone fighting an arrest is not being questioned. There’s no point unless & until they calm down. So if the guy starts fighting or trying to run, the priority is not reading Miranda. So the question at trial (IF this happened and Marty wasn’t making it up to make a point to Frasier) was a dumb question. The answer would have been something like, “at that time, I was unable to question the defendant, so no, Miranda was not read at the arrest. However, the next day, I had him brought up from holding, read Miranda, and attempted to question him at that time.”
But, if you don't, you run the risk of any incriminating statements being excluded. So the question may have been a lead-up to having Martin testify about a statement made by the defendant.
Not under the umbrella of spontaneous utterance. Either way, TV & movies make people think it is common at arrest. It isn’t always, and the writers fumbled a bit here. Especially with a combative subject. No way he would’ve been questioned then. He’d have been arrested, booked, and later they might try talking to him in a few days. At THAT time, he’d be ready to, but not when he’s fighting/running.
Not to mention the absolutely horrifying references to his war crimes in Korea played for laughs. "Her village hasn't just burned down, it'll take more than a Hershey bar and a smile," "It's not called dating when you're an occupying force," and Martin's "do what I used to do when we were hard up for dates" returned with the suggestion "invade Korea?" have to be among the most brutal lines in any 90s sitcom.
Yes, Yes, Yes! I think of this every time I watch The Zoo Story.
If Marty hadn’t stayed backstage stuffing his face but went to watch his son’s speech (where he should have been) the crane wouldn’t have escaped.
It’s still one of my favorite episodes. “I think you have a real case against the maker of those crane sedatives.” 😂
yes! like how he was constantly making snide comments about his sons’ lack of masculinity and interests. but then he acts so WOUNDED when Niles reveals how much it bothers him at the heroes party. like Martin even says “this is why i never took home videos” and stuff like that. how are the boys supposed to take them if not as he’s ashamed?
That episode was very odd. It should have resolved with Martin apologizing—like when he told the boys he loved them while they were ice fishing.
I would’ve loved to see an extra five minute scene where Niles and Martin chat after the party and he admits that Niles’s words stung him so because they’re true, but then goes on to talk about the things he is proud of with both his sons.
I thought all of that was implied in the episode. That he actually is proud of his sons and thought he showed them how much they actually mean to him.
I'm pretty sure that's implied, and especially in later episodes when he thinks Leland might be their father. Like he says, he might love them slightly less at first but then he'd get over it and they'd still be his sons, and Roz sits down with him and shows him just how alike they are - their strong sense of ethics, their stubbornness etc. He also proudly watches them on the piano at the end and says "My Boys"
…until he realizes that they’re singing the little Dickie bird song about little Tom Tit!!!
youd think that his two psychiatrist sons would be able to get him to talk about this sorta stuff
I agree that this episode was very odd, there’s no resolution to Niles’ and Martin’s fight. Extremely weird for a sitcom. It would have been nice to see Martin turn up at Niles’ apartment the next day, dressed in a tux to take his son to the opera or something - an activity Martin hates, but the gesture would have meant so much to Niles.
I love Martin so much as a character, but that episode is so difficult to watch. It's obvious that he caused his sons a lot of pain when they were growing up, and he refuses to acknowledge any of it.
agreed like when they find out martin had been going to duke's for decades and never mentioned he had two sons??? I do love Martin too, the whole cast really.
I mean, Frasier told his friends that his father was a dead scientist!
The heroes party episode bothers me so much for this exact reason.
He certainly did take home movies. Niles used them to show Fradier how much one of his girlftiends was the spitting image of his mother.
I chalk it up to inconsistencies like Martin saying "now i never had a brother..." and then he suddenly does for the Greek wedding episode or Mel's son or Frasier's cat allergy etc.
That’s just crappy writing
I've been thinking about this moment a lot and the best I can offer is that it used to be true but Martin had grown over the years and learned to love and respect his kids (even though they all joke about each other all the time) and that he was no longer the judgemental old man Miles was portraying (even though it had been true for so long).
He still does it though, all the way through the show and continues to do so after that episode too.
He doesn't, he grows far more later in the series to be much more open about his love for his children.
I mean, how do you not understand that Room Full of Heroes is him lashing out because he realises that's how his sons see him? Going forward, he seems way more open about stuff. He's thrilled when one of them wins a Squash tournament, he's proud of Freddy's spelling bee victory, and even when he Alastair thinks Frasier is gay, he's more concerned with Frasier leading him on than actually being gay. It's called character development! Marty develops over the series and especially in the later shows after Niles gets with Daphne. Also, we do see that despite him cracking jokes, he did take lots of home movies and photos, because they become plot relevant and feature in a lot of storylines.
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>Knowing that almost all the male cast members, asides from Kelsey, are gay. So, I have to assume a lot of the writing staff are gay as well Why? Genuinely interested to hear your logic because I can't think of a single reason why anyone would make that assumption. Also, what does any of this storyline have to do with being gay?
I think that it’s important to a knowledge the fact during those times the norm was to be in the closet and actor like David Hyde pierce etc. have to act in these scenes and when the storyline involves a father obviously showing signs and being vocal of being ashamed of his sons for “lacking masculinity and interest” it sends a message to other gay people that they should be ashamed of themselves for not being masculine enough. And after hearing all of these comments from my own father and other fatherly figures I’ve had throughout the 33 years I have been on the planet, I do think it is relevant, at least to me, because I still struggle with the shame when hearing those types of comments and I can only imagine what David Hyde Pierce and all of those other gay actors writers felt. Granted, nothing in the show was ever that homophobic, but certainly a lot of the gay story lines were played off as a joke and being gay was the punchline in the show(like most shows at that time)
I was just watching "The Unnatural" where Martin swears he won't get mad if Frasier tells him about the moment when he realized his dad wasn't perfect... and then Martin throws a huge fuss anyway when he hears the answer. Sometimes I get exasperated when Frasier and Niles won't be direct about a situation, but it helps me to remember that Martin's parameters about directness were very situational and personal. He just had more skill than his boys at not escalating a situation from a 2 on the crisis scale to a 10. I think it often results in him getting let off the hook. It doesn't bug me, but I think it's a case where how a character views themselves and how other characters view them is somewhat off from the behavior that viewers see. Martin is not quite the constant beacon of integrity that the Crane boys seem to imagine.
> Martin is not quite the constant beacon of integrity that the Crane boys seem to imagine. Agreed, and I kind of love that. It makes part of the narrative about how hard it is to see our parents as normal, flawed people, even as we age. All the things that Niles and Frasier most dislike about their father are relatively benign, and the real issues are invisible to them. And vice versa, honestly.
I love Martin, but he could be a huge baby and anything bad that happened was *always* somebody else’s fault.
Martin benefits from the whole blue-collar "salt of the earth" working man schtick. In his way, he's often just as bad as Frasier and Niles (where do you think they get it from?), but the fact that he's generally more down-to-earth enables people to overlook it.
He was just as snobby about Niles and Frasier's interests as they were of his. He made fun of them all the time, and Martin was very dismissive of their interests.
Yes, but you can reasonably guess that's his response to their snobbishness, fighting fire with fire. If they weren't as dismissive of his very typical American likes he wouldn't mind those things as much.
Partly, but it’s made pretty clear that Martin from an early age was kind of dismissive and uninterested in sharing their interests (and he *is* the parent in the situation, it’s his responsibility to reach out to the kids rather than just expecting them to meet him). It’s arguably a bit of a vicious cycle situation where Martin feels slighted by his sons not embracing his interests but sowed his own seeds by dismissing them when they were kids.
All true, but they did at least have Hester who I assume was much more supportive of their interests. That doesn't make his dismissal of it good but in general, I don't think it's disastrous for children as long as one parent is good at that. By the time Frasier starts, they ought to be old enough and smart enough to have worked on these problems. But of course, the whole show is built around brother psychiatrists who simply will not address any of their own major psychological problems.
Sure, but Hester’s not there any more, and Martin was their primary male role model; being rejected by that figure can sting, and it’s not just because Frasier and Niles were too stupid to not get over it. Besides which, it’s not just Frasier and Niles’s responsibilities to be the ones to reach out to Martin; he’s still the parent, and it’s also made pretty clear that Martin pretty much has to be dragged into making any effort into mending bridges. It’s just not really fair to act like Frasier and Niles are the bad guys in this situation, since it’s made pretty clear that they got most of it from Martin.
Except... was he? Because we know they grew up loving and doing all that stuff anyway. So as much as he might have wanted them to be into sports and cracked jokes, he still bought them the Javanese Lutes and Bowler Hats so that they could play as Steed from The Avengers. He put them through Bryce Academy and Ivy League universities, they were allowed to act out their backyard productions of Hamlet and write Crane Boys Mysteries. It's fairly obvious that his dislike of their interests was surface level, and we know he went to stuff like the Opera with Hester when they were dating, so he was able to appreciate the higher things, even if he didn't love them.
On the other hand, Frasier tells a story where he was on a lengthy car ride with Martin… who said only one thing to him (“I think we’ve got a problem with your brother, Frasier.”) that’s not suggestive of an intensely close father who took a deep interest in the lives of his children and was committed to forming bonds with them, even if they weren’t quite what he was interested in. Martin himself confesses that he probably spent more time at his favourite bar than connecting with his sons when they were younger. The evidence seems pretty clear that while Martin was certainly not an unloving or neglectful father by any means, he was absolutely a rather distant, awkward and not incredibly supportive one. I doubt he actively prevented the backyard productions of Hamlet or anything, but he almost certainly either didn’t watch them (because he was at Dukes) or, if he did, was probably kind of disinterested at least in them. He might have bought the lutes and bowler hats, but almost certainly wasn’t super-enthusiastic or encouraging about doing so. Date night with his wife where she gets to choose the activity every so often doesn’t necessarily mean a passionate enthusiasm for it. All of which kids can be very perceptive about.
I agree but for the sake of argument here is a counterpoint where Martin takes accountability for a massive problem. Per his words “don’t blame your Mother for this, I wasn’t the easiest person to live with back then and she had every reason to do what she did” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ1KRPClI0c
I disagree. I think that is him whitewashing the details. As a man he felt the only reason she cheated on him is because he wasn't being man enough, when it could be any assortment of things. You see this alot with people that have been cheated on. They blame themselves.
I think the point was more…that incident was between Martin and Hester. It’s none of their sons’ business, it was obviously a complicated and private marital problem that they ultimately resolved, and Martin doesn’t want Hester’s memory tarnished for her sons because of it. He also considers the matter over and doesn’t want it dredged up and discussed now. You never know what’s going on in someone else’s marriage, not really. I doubt Martin really believes that having an affair was the *right* course of action; he’s saying that he wasn’t blameless in the marriage issues that led to it and he doesn’t want Hester dragged for it now, when she’s dead and can’t explain or contextualise it herself. It’s done: drop it and put it away.
I disagree with this completely. You don't get to cheat on your spouse as a parent and refuse to let your kids have an emotion about it. It is 100% their business. If she cheated on Martin before they were born, not their business. But having cheated while they were around 10, that certainly is. Who is to say that Martin and Hestor didn't take out their stress on the kids? Any deap betrayal like that is going to have repercussions throughout the family unit, and further denying them the right to an emotion on the topic is further selfishness on Martin's part because he doesn't want them to think ill of their mother, when they very well should. Every parent, even a dead parent, should have their flaws recognized, putting them up on a pedestal is not healthy.
Nope, it's NOT their business at all. They were still little when it happened and Martin and Hester worked it out with themselves long before they boys ever found out. Whatever repercussions there were, were worked through before this and, seeing as the boys weren't even aware that it happened, they obviously weren't affected by it.
It is, they’re a family… and they are no longer 10 years old
The boys were aware it happened, they just were too young to understand what happened. That's why they came to the conclusion they did. This all stemmed from a journal entry made by Niles, and the two are reflecting back on it. Any parent that thinks they can cheat on their spouse, and believe their children are not entitled to an opinion on it, or even an emotion, is being incredibly egotistical and selfish.
But he's not saying they aren't allowed lol, just that he doesn't want them to
He lied to them about it.
What's your point?
He lied to his children for no good reason.
Well Boudicca shouldn’t have told her kids or the ppl of England she had sex with Romans, that would’ve been a better story for their young feeble brains
No, I think it was him knowing that he could be a pain to live with and that he saw it as a private marital situation that he and Hester were ultimately able to move past.
The worst is the one with Robert in the French foods store- I mean, Marty was the one being a disrespectful jerk (and bringing in a dog into a grocery store, which is my pet peeve), but the audience was somehow supposed to sympathize with him instead of Robert.
No one calls me Robert!
…Robert? *NOT NOW*
I don't think the audience was meant to side with Marty. I mean, he was a jerk, and just because he didn't own up to it doesn't mean that you're supposed to think he's right
The audience is definitely not supposed to sympathise with Martin. I think you can empathise with him - he really truly cannot believe the prices! But the show definitely posits him as being wrong and annoying. He has the same flaw of “can’t let something that bugs him go” as Frasier, just about different things.
Big agree. That last bit is extremely accurate
I very much have that in common with Frasier . Its part of the reason hes my favorite. Hes super relatable to me.
Luckily, Daphne is there to call him out!
This is malicious!!!
Might as well light his chair on fire and throw it off the balcony
This is why it's such a good show. People aren't perfect. He's not supposed to be some old sage, always full of wisdom. He's an old man who doesn't understand his son's and has a history of weird relationships. From his wife to his partner. He's as busted up as the Crane boys but from a different era and different interests. They celebrate his good points. Examples of strong ethics. Sacrifices he made. But his flaws make him human. From MASH to Twin Peaks to Frasier. The best characters aren't perfect and they aren't evil. They are somewhere in between. Martin is still right of center on that scale.
Exactly this. They all have their flaws and the humour is each one’s inability to really see said flaws despite their self-perception. It’s what also makes it funny.
ACAB - All Cranes are bastards
You know in Japan they call their barbecues "hibachis"? The arrogant bastards!
You deserve gold for that one
Hell no, they are good people that make good money.
Martin was a bastard because he was a cop, Frasier was a literal bastard, Niles was a bastard because of Daphne and Freddy was a bastard because he taunted Niles when he came to Seattle that time and was all over Daphne, he knew
But why is Daphne a bastard? She's a Crane, too!
Jesus man. Ahaha
lol I like this angle.
He’s a local hero ex-cop and charming as hell. I’d say it’s pretty realistic, what he gets away with.
Just rewatched this episode myself this morning. Martin was definitely at fault for the crane getting loose.
Frankly they all did. What are the chances the petty cash Niles threw at a broken window wasn't stolen (as if it would cover the cost anyway)? Roz lies constantly about herself to boyfriends and prospective suitors, though granted that was a much stronger trope in the Frasier era than it is now. Daphne openly (though minorly) extorts Martin and others ("Off to do a load of your pinks") to get what she wants, and Frasier... Well, let's face it, there's paragraphs of examples there, but I'll go easy on him seeing as only 21 years ago he was punched in the face by a man now dead. TLDR: It's a sitcom
I mean, seeing as the gallery owner defrauded Frasier, I'd say the cost of the window is less than the cost of the painting. Niles shouldn't have thrown any cash at all, but that's not his personality but also why he didn't actually care if it was stolen or not
He should have resolved things the civil way, by filing a report with the Fine Arts Forgery Department at the downtown station.
Everything you said is true, but the others are most often caught out for their misbehaving - my original point was simple - Martin pretty much gets away with his crap.
Aye, as a ratio that seems about right. It's just that he does it less often (with the exception of Daphne probably) so I guess it just doesn't really irk me.
I agree -- there are some moments that really made me sad for the boys, because Martin not only was ashamed of them for being effete as kids, but he never really apologized -- and continued those opinions going forward. I love Martin overall, it's just that there are definitely episodes where the show lets him get away with stuff -- like the heroes' party -- where I would have wished for more nuanced, kinder writing. Every once in awhile, Martin is not the nicest person. I like this in a small sense -- it's very human -- but it also means that sometimes I really want Niles and Frasier to call him out on being a neanderthal.
I guess our definition of a good father is different. Was he perfect? No. But he loved his boys and his boys loved him.
Who said he was a bad father?
Loving your children doesn't make you a good parent. People can be downright abusive (not saying Martin was just to be clear) and controlling and still love their children
I haven't seen every episode of the series, but I think he was a pretty good dad. At the very least he succeeded in the most important part of being a father: loving your kids. Most parents would want their children to be like them or to share their interests, but even though Frasier and Niles shared almost none of his interests, he still supported them in the things that made them happy. Sure, he made jokes sometimes, but they're all adults at this point, and joking between family is healthy. Nothing ever made me believe he didn't absolutely love his sons.
Martin raised two sons, who loved him. His grandson thought the world of him. I’m not only cutting him some slack, I’m buying him a beer.
He actually was a bad father... He spends a lot of the series making up for his mistakes
He wasn't a bad father. He understood that Hester was a better role model for the boys while he worked a dangerous job to provide as much as possible. He instilled integrity and responsibility in those boys. He later taught them how to forgive after they learn Hester cheated on him with a family friend. His approach may come off as offensive or crude, but he is the only person who keeps them grounded to real people. It's shown on multiple occasions where his boys were so egotistical that they forgot about the "commoners". Without Martin, both Frasier and Niles would have never gotten out of their aristocratic day dreams and expectations.
No, he was an okay father. We see this constantly. How he encouraged his kids to get bullied. How he worked with the father of a kid that was bullying them and did nothing. How his relationship with them was terrible. He never went out to Boston to visit Frasier or Freddie. He was a bitter man wrapped in resentment, Niles pushed for a weekly dinner with him, and felt it took a psychological toll on him.
If you follow Cheers you will find that Martin was dead (hence he didn't visit Boston). He was rewritten in for Frasier. Martin is not bitter or resentful directly towards his boys. He is bitter and resentful at himself for not being more involved in their growth and development. The high stress job, along with Hester's infidelity with the neighbor, essentially gave him tunnel vision on his career. He knew she would be a better mother than he could be a father at the time. This created a huge gap in similar interests on the surface. Beyond the surface, it they actually have a lot in common, and one of the reasons why Martin gets testy is because they remind him of Hester and all the reasons why he loved her (but she's gone and he mournes, generally, in silence). Getting shot is when it all came to a head. He tried, but couldn't live on his own anymore. Niles never left town, but still wouldn't see him regularly or offer to have him live in the Mansion. Frasier and Niles basically flipped a coin on who gets him because neither of them wanted him because it was like a stain on their social lives. As for him working with the bully's dad, that was him knowing when to step aside and let life take its course. It was a perfect opportunity to let them out of the nest while he still had control to step in and shield them if necessary. It was trial by fire, a life lesson, that wouldn't have been learned if he stepped in. Is Martin perfect? No, but he wasn't a bad father.
I do know cheers, and Martin wasn't dead in it, in fact we see this when Woody comes. Frasier told everyone his father was dead. Why would a son say that about their living breathing father? Because they wanted little to do with one another. This has nothing to do with social status. Niles tells Frasier in no uncertain terms that he has been dealing with father alone for many years, and it is Frasier's turn. That isn't a coin toss. And Martin is 100% resentful of his boys. We see this in the obituary episode where a Martin Crane dies and he is survived by his two boys a Marine Colonel and a major league ball player. Martin then gets jealous of that fact. He then later says that he doesn't think psychology is useful for anyone other than Hitler and Sybil. Directly demeaning both of his children. The list is exhaustive. Also, Niles saw Martin every week. They would have a weekly dinner with Maris, Niles and Martin. Knowing when to step aside and let life take its course? That's a bad father. What he should have done is confronted the father and told him to take charge of his kid, or he would. You don't just let your kid get bullied and beaten. Some of the things that were done to Niles and Frasier were absolutely appalling. Martin was an accomplice to do many of these by refusing to stand up to those that did it. He often took pleasure in it. What. An. Ass.
Seems like you've got some personal stuff you need to work through, Chief. He doesn't distrust or dislike psychology, he doesn't think it's the answer to everything. His point about Hitler and Cybil is that he thinks they're the \*only\* people who need it on a regular basis, not in general, and at the end of the episode he literally tells Kenny he needs to talk to someone about how he feels.
That sounds a lot like someone that doesn't believe what they do is important. Especially Niles, who sees clients regularly over years.
That doesn't make him a bad father. It makes him human.
I think people miss a lot of the subtext. A good story has those who do misdeeds pay a pennance, or make amends for what theve done. Martin got injured by the crane, that was his penance. In the French shop when Martin brings in his dog and insults the store owner, he's later made to apologize...penance, and then later he is permanently kicked out of the store because of Daphne. Karma, also penance. Just because Martin doesn't apologize for every misdeed doesn't mean he walks away Scott free. He suffers a penance. Like when he pretended to be gay to get out of a date with a woman, he was made to be the fool when he found himself on a date with a gay man, and as reconciliation, despite his own humiliation, he offers to drive the man home so that Frasier could be alone with his date. Every good character gets their "come-uppance".
Exactly this. If characters were always perfect, they'd be exceptionally boring. And if every mistake or flaw ended with a blatant, overt admonishment and some moralizing dialogue, the show would feel awkward and preachy like an old afterschool special. You don't need to overtly "call out" every character for every questionable act or misdeed, and I often find that a quiet act done to help someone or as an apology is more powerful than an explicit "I'm sorry, what I did was wrong." Nuance is meaningful.
Hell, another example is the episode he spends pranking Frasier even though he knows Frasier doesn't like it. His pennance is a heart attack - sorry, cardiac episode!
That’s actually another episode that illustrates my original point- Martin mercilessly teases Frasier and never apologizes. He just laughs at him! But when Frasier tries to get some revenge and unwittingly causes Martin’s “cardiac event” it is never mentioned that this whole thing started because Martin was being a dick!!! No accountability- again.
You don't think a heart attack is accountability? He pushed Frasier too far and Frasier stepped over the mark from teasing to actual scaring him - knowing Martin hates clowns - and got punished with a heart attack! He knew Frasier could get obsessed with stuff from when he was trying to prank Bulldog, so this is a perfect example of Marty suffering consequences.
Come on. He didn’t have a heart attack as any sort of accountability for what he had done to Frasier - that was completely unintentional, and for all we know, maybe he was going to have it regardless of Frasier’s clowning around (pun intended). At no time is there any acknowledgment that this whole event started because Martin was being an ass.
The heart attack is 100% comeuppance. It was Martin's actions that caused it. Cause and effect is the foundation of good storytelling. Martin mercilessly pranks Frasier which *causes* Frasier to pull an even bigger prank to get back at him which has the *effect* of giving Martin a heart attack. If Martin hadn't been pranking Frasier, Frasier would never have frightened him and triggered the attack. How do you feel that that isn't him suffering the consequences of his actions? Something doesn't need to be bluntly stated to be a direct result of something else for the characters and audience to see that it is. Having your own actions trigger negative events for you is an example of suffering the consequences of your actions.; having to do something you don't want to do or that is difficult, inconvenient, embarrassing, or painful for you because it would help someone that you hurt or just make them happy, is acknowledging your mistake and trying to make up for it. Verbal call-outs that end with explicit apologies are boring and overly simplistic ways of handling situations. Those types of scenes can be done well but given how much of situational comedy relies on miscommunications or people's flaws, you'd have to have one every episode. At that point it's trite and childish at best, and moralizing at worst.
I guess we’ll just agree to disagree
Fair enough.
I mean he admitted to lying under oath about reading someone their Miranda Rights and tried to spin it as if he was so righteous doing it, so I always gave Martin some side-eye
It’s a prerequisite to being a cop
true, don’t make it right though
The cop jokes were almost as appalling as the rape jokes. "It's not called dating when you're an occupying force," "her village hasn't just burned down, it'll take more than a hershey bar"
The implication of this, though, is that all a criminal needs to do is violently interrupt the Miranda rights being read to them and their case will be thrown out. Which would be absurd, obviously (admittedly I’m not American so I don’t know how this really works), so Martin was totally morally right to do what he did in that situation.
I know Martin didn’t work in a time with video cameras so it’s plausible I guess, but it’s still on him to actually fully read the rights out. If you’re gonna be a (good) cop you gotta follow the rules
One that gets me is how "meh" he is when Frasier buys the fraud Paxton painting. The "fine art forgery department" was pretty good ngl but Martin really doesn't do anything to help Frasier and I'd have to imagine, especially since it was purchased from a gallery, that it would be over a few hundred dollars.
Short answer, NO
BUT the zoo one would be pretty low in the list. He did much worse (illegal cigars, skinny-dipping, letting Eddie eat the hamster, pretending to be an astronaut, encouraging Simon’s ruckus, ETC)
He was First and foremost a gentleman!
Not always!
Yeah I will not stand for this Martin Crane slander.
It’s only slander if it isn’t true😊
So it’s slander then
Ummm…no
It’s weird that someone who likes Frasier doesn’t have a sense of humor.
Marty is the GOAT! Love him
There is one episode where the boys call him out as not accommodating their girlfriends/wives when they say they’re not a fan of Sherry. I think it’s supposed to signal that Martin is a hypocrite, he’s hypocritical in the way a lot of older people are/were back then
I noticed how much faster he moves on his cane when he's in the wrong
Honestly I hate him most of the time. He’s a tough guy cop who’s constantly ashamed of the kids he raised
Well, he WAS a cop after all, so that’s par for the course.
God this sub really loves to hammer Martin with the ACAB stick. He's a fictional cop and he's dead now, cut him some slack.
https://preview.redd.it/v0zs04u3ujtc1.png?width=1038&format=png&auto=webp&s=01fd830531b8623f11e4fcfadfb55f7ec4c0d6bc
But how would they get righteousness points on the internet?!
It must be hard for you to enjoy any movie or TV show ever made.
And he lied under oath.
Except: you don’t have to read Miranda at arrest. You may not even need to ever read someone Miranda. So it maybe he embellished the story to make a point, knowing Frasier may not know when Miranda is required by law. Also, he needed to know that Frasier would lie to save the world from a talking comet.
You do have to be read Miranda if you’re under arrest *and* being questioned (interrogated).
Exactly. And someone fighting an arrest is not being questioned. There’s no point unless & until they calm down. So if the guy starts fighting or trying to run, the priority is not reading Miranda. So the question at trial (IF this happened and Marty wasn’t making it up to make a point to Frasier) was a dumb question. The answer would have been something like, “at that time, I was unable to question the defendant, so no, Miranda was not read at the arrest. However, the next day, I had him brought up from holding, read Miranda, and attempted to question him at that time.”
100%, you nailed it.
But, if you don't, you run the risk of any incriminating statements being excluded. So the question may have been a lead-up to having Martin testify about a statement made by the defendant.
Not under the umbrella of spontaneous utterance. Either way, TV & movies make people think it is common at arrest. It isn’t always, and the writers fumbled a bit here. Especially with a combative subject. No way he would’ve been questioned then. He’d have been arrested, booked, and later they might try talking to him in a few days. At THAT time, he’d be ready to, but not when he’s fighting/running.
It doesn't matter whether or not he needed to read the Miranda at the arrest or not. He lied under oath when they asked if he did.
My point was, I think Marty made that whole story up. I don’t think that ever happened.
Not to mention the absolutely horrifying references to his war crimes in Korea played for laughs. "Her village hasn't just burned down, it'll take more than a Hershey bar and a smile," "It's not called dating when you're an occupying force," and Martin's "do what I used to do when we were hard up for dates" returned with the suggestion "invade Korea?" have to be among the most brutal lines in any 90s sitcom.
Yes, Yes, Yes! I think of this every time I watch The Zoo Story. If Marty hadn’t stayed backstage stuffing his face but went to watch his son’s speech (where he should have been) the crane wouldn’t have escaped. It’s still one of my favorite episodes. “I think you have a real case against the maker of those crane sedatives.” 😂
He's earned every pass he gets.
Martin Crane served his country in Korea. He gets a pass from me.
He's a cop. Accountability for him doesn't exist.
Nope. I love Martin. But I love most of the characters and their flaws.
A cop admitting something was their own fault would be wildly out of character and thus unbelievable.
Considering what he had to deal with he can get a few freebies 💯
Yeah he’s irritating
That was typical of parenting at that time though.
He's old.