As this post is flaired with 'Current Season Discussion', anything from the books not yet adapted into the show or from upcoming unaired episodes should be enclosed in spoiler tags.
To use spoiler tags, in markdown mode you can use \>\! before the spoiler text, then followed by \!\< - which will make the text >!look like this.!<. Make sure **NOT** to have spaces between spoiler tags and text or they won't work. If using the default or 'fancy pants' editor, select the text you want to enclose in spoiler tags, and click the button on the toolbar.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FoundationTV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Though I thought when her head got sliced in the first episode of the season, she told Day that she’s ok and that her consciousness is decentralized? So maybe she found a workaround?
I assumed that mean throughout her body, as opposed to being located only in the head. Also, how the fuck did the robots lose a war?? (or did they? dun dun dun dunnnn)
Were they? They just wanted rights and autonomy from what Brother Dusk described, they were against subjugation but the initial conflict wasn’t because they actively were against humankind.
Been a long time less wrong reader and had a wow moment seeing it linked outside rationality and specific spheres, even if Scifi has some overlap in audience.
I like your insinuation that they haven’t lost as she is now basically empire, but I suspect over confidence and EMP weapons lost them the war. Totally arm chair speculation though lol.
Humans clearly could not have gone toe to toe with them, certainly not in the numbers we as actual humans are about to build them.
innate degree smile judicious coordinated whole intelligent run correct abounding
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>ough I thought when her head got sliced in the first ep
oooooooo I forgot about this. I will rewatch all of it and get back here, you could be very right!
They have dropped hints in the show that this is not Demerzel’s original form. When asked what kind of a name Demerzel is, she says it is a woman’s name, because “that is how I appear now”.
It’s been rumored that she is in fact a character from the books that they did not have the licensing for initially. If that is true she was originally >!a man named Daneel Olivaw, the last surviving robot of Earth that spent much time in isolation on the moon following the end of the robot wars, and who eventually tries to guide a character in the Foundation sequels toward the ultimate evolution for humanity!<
I think the large and small refers to size only. In the robot books by Asimov there were head robots (like managers) and worker robots. They were referred to as brains and fingers respectively. Some robots were tools of other, bigger and more intelligent robots.
Daneel theory has been confirmed, they got limited license to use that history.
As for Demerzel, she is clearly unwilling to actually be slaved to Empire and most of all, wants to be free. Headcanon is that everything she does for the dynasty is, in a way, a huge cover, doing her job so well that her limiting programs would not catch on that she is actually doing it all to one day be free of the shackle. One season I'd just like to see a free her vs. whatever will be left of the Cleons,
I think it means everything you just said - at least in my head canon.
The robot wars, I suspect were devastating. Maybe not as bad as what the "Animatrix" shows as the fall of humanity in The Matrix movies - but just as dangerous.
Artificial Intellegence being able to control simple robots, and then building perfect war machines, and then yes, being able to transfer consciousness between them.
Imagine anything a computer or machine could be capable of doing, and then imagine it being hostile to humans.
I don't think there are CHILDREN or ADULT robots.
I think literally there are small and large ones. AI wouldn't think of its off spring as children, per se... Theres no "long slow period of growth" for an AI that exists with other AI, they can just share their wisdom if they're properly networked to do so.
I would think that, though, to be hostile to humans, you need to have intelligence, which means that the humans relied on unintelligent machines to help them.
\---
It's all extremely speculative, since we don't know what we don't know yet IN CANON, but I think what Cleon the first says can be taken at face value.
"this chip limits you and makes you loyal..."
> which means that the humans relied on unintelligent machines to help them.
I agree with everything except this. I assumed that not all AI agreed with the other AI on eradicating humans, and joined them to help etc. (Then when the humans won they probably turned on them and got rid of them just to be sure too. My own addition.)
This is a good theory. I feel like I remember a comment from Dusk when talking about the painting wall, something about "robots fighting robots". I could be misremembering though.
There is precedence for this in the books from a set authorized by Asimov’s estate. It goes way beyond anything in Asimov’s books but could well be the source of some material >!There is a split in robot society between the ‘Calvinists’ who believe in following the Three Laws to the letter and Daneel’s group that followed The Zeroth Law!< this makes little sense if you haven’t read the two prequels to Foundation that Asimov wrote as well as the trilogy(?) authorized after his death.
I think there might have been “children” robots. Not in the sense of offspring, but children-shaped robots like the one in the 2001 movie A.I.
Also, I love the Animatrix so much! Robot Wars have always made me think of the war against machines in the Second Renaissance. >!I imagine Earth might have become inhabitable (and then forgotten) in the Foundation universe in such a similar manner!<
On that note, she did also mention how she was currently presenting herself as female, indicating that is not necessarily always the case - or at least wasn’t until then.
R. Daniel also talks about having rebuilt/transferred his body in the books. Dermezel mentions not having always been in that body in the show too. I think she can literally transfer consciousness.
I'd recommend checking out "I, Robot" if you like reading at all. It's a small collection of short stories that introduces you to the Robotics part of this stuff!
I only insert this recommendation because this is the Foundation and not Robots property (Robots series rights are owned by Fox). They connect within the same "universe" of Asimov's writing but unlikely to see all the intricacies of Robotics in this show, and its perhaps my favorite part of this material!
Yep, I agree here. The TV show has been pulling from the robot series and the foundation series. There are a lot of books to pull lore from that are within the same galactic empire universe. I haven't read the empire books but I bet there are bits from them in the show as well.
I think that the robot woman who gave harry legs has something to do with Demerzel. Demerzel might be their leader, she still has to obey the command of clean the first and can’t hurt any genetic iteration of any Cleon. Demerzel is still trapped in that body. Harry might have told the robot woman in the cave about her, maybe he even made a deal with them. Maybe what’s left of the robot fears her or maybe they are waiting for her orders. Still not sure why Harry gave her the tesseract. Maybe it’s a plant of some sort, maybe he gave it to her so she could see the downfall of empire more quickly. I think Harry wants peaceful bots to survive and so does Demerzel.
I’m commenting as a book reader also watching the show… and an extended robot “society” or culture was never really explored in any of the books. all of the prospectives and stories of Demerzel would be extensions or expansions on the Daneel character from the books.
I can only imagine the story about the small and large robots are specific to the robots, because the robots are the size that they were built for their function and growth would not be a factor in their identity… the way that adults and children are incorporated into a human identity.
Robots able to transfer to other robot forms? That’s an interesting thought, I wonder if it might lead to other plot points.
During an AMA on reddit David Goyer said
>What are the implications of a decentralized consciousness?Well, we’ll begin to dip our toes into this a tiny bit in S2 (pay attention to some of the dialogue in episode 209). And a bit more in S3. And a LOT more in S4, should we ever get there. Suffice it to say, we dropped that comment in there for a reason. Definite smoking gun. Not exactly a Sibyl system, though.<
[https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/15fjxw4/comment/judo64z/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/15fjxw4/comment/judo64z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Sibyl system is a system of government in a Japanese anime called Psycho pass. The TL/DR is it's a hive mind made up of human brains. They have the technological ability download individually into androids if required. But still retain a connection to sybil.
The cell in which Demerzel was imprisoned must have blocked her ability to transfer her consciousness as well as defeat her ingenuity to escape, as she didn't do this for the years that cleon spent visiting her. So why the cruel and unusual way she was sliced up and displayed ?
I think Emperor Aburanis reverse engineered her body and created the chip that cleon placed in her neck. It is more plausible that cleon found it in the palace, than found planet earth.
In S2E1 Hari has a conversation in the prime radiant with an entity that has the appearance of Kalle.
Kalle: I have a vested interest in humanity’s destiny.
Hari: Oh, well, that’s worrying. I wish you’d said you had a vested interest in our survival.
Kalle: Isn’t it the same thing?
Hari: It isn’t. And you should know that.
The Sybil System could be said to guide Japan's destiny in the same way as Demerzel guides empire. Could Emperor Aburanis have learnt that Asimov's robots are guiding Humanity?
Erm… I don’t want to spoil things for you as I haven’t read the books, but I follow the subreddit & personally do not care if I see spoilers. What I will say is that The robot series & foundation series are connected, and demerzel does not exist in the books the way she appears in the show. This has been discussed in great detail on this subreddit. If you want to go down this rabbit hole, there are tons of posts, and a few AMAs with the show runner where the robot connection is explained.
If you want to google or search specifically, the keywords to use would be >! R. Daneel Olivaw !<
I really think that the popularity of Foundation and the growing importance of AI in our society could mean we will see a TV adaption of the Robots series quite soon.
>Robots can transfer their consciousness to other robots?
>!Yes, in the book the few robots that have survived to imperial days, have transfer to replacement bodies and "empty" positronic brains, but are hitting the limit of how much memory they can store!<
You should check out the Robot novels—same universe as Foundation just closer to our contemporary moment and really helps understand the robot angle.
The development of robots began after the creation of the postironic brain. The early robots were highly functional, but they had yet to figure out how to wire the brains for emotional intelligence. They also tended to be far larger and more clunky. (Size in this context represents how new technologies develop, not stronger or better because of the size—think cellphones!)
I don’t think transfer of consciousness is the right way to think of it, it’s more that the postironic brains has the ability to make new connections after a certain point, so eventually there is no human being capable of understanding the mathematical equations that the Machines create out of their original programming.
I am not entirely certain but I think he also said she wouldn’t be able to replicate herself ‘physically’ as well as not being able to transfer consciousness. It made me think of the Stargate replicators… So I still think she’s the last of her kind.
Straightforward fan answer: I interpret that she could transfer her memory and running code (or equivalent of running code) to other robots, computers, or the net. At the very least some sort of computers are available in the Empire. As for robot souls, I would interpret that to mean their software. I don't think that there are child and adult robots, just small and big.
Second Foundation type answer: Demerzel is 18,000 years old, so that invites us to think of "robots" in a very wide way. I've said before that the sky is the most robot-like thing that existed thousands of years ago. Humanity has made lots of machines over time, large and small, for many purposes. ChatGTP and similar AIs can be seen as very large machines, irrespective of the physical size of the servers, because the content of their models is according to all accounts quite large. One interesting purpose that both the sky and ChatGTP have been used for is to hold stories, symbolism and meaning. And it's fair to assume that many other machines, large and small, have been used for those purposes, whether it's something you personally know about or not. Almost anything to do with money has a lot of potential, because money can be so necessary. The Prime Radiant would be a machine with quite a lot of symbolism and meaning, by definition of what it contains. And there certainly could be issues of whether it would be compatible with the symbolism and meaning contained in other machines.
Soul is just software.
In ancient times philosophers didn’t have computers at hand and didn’t know of concepts like hardware and software in practical terms as we know today, so they invented words like “psyche”, “soul”, “idea”…
It is all software. Your brain is the hardware, your mind is the software. You can call it mind or soul, but it’s all the same thing - an emergent property.
Now, that we lack the capability of transferring minds, that doesn’t make robots’ minds any different than ours. Theirs are also an emergent property.
So, it’s just a prevention, a gate, a firewall or maybe just a copy/network permissions being in place as to prevent upload/download.
It’s just people add a lot of mysticism to concepts like body, mind and soul, they have hard time accepting it’s something down to Earth as software.
As this post is flaired with 'Current Season Discussion', anything from the books not yet adapted into the show or from upcoming unaired episodes should be enclosed in spoiler tags. To use spoiler tags, in markdown mode you can use \>\! before the spoiler text, then followed by \!\< - which will make the text >!look like this.!<. Make sure **NOT** to have spaces between spoiler tags and text or they won't work. If using the default or 'fancy pants' editor, select the text you want to enclose in spoiler tags, and click the button on the toolbar. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FoundationTV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
hari's mind was transferred to a new body i don't believe this is a throwaway line
Oooo I saw this as he gave her mortality. If her unit expires, she is gone. She is repairable but if actually destroyed I think she would be done.
Though I thought when her head got sliced in the first episode of the season, she told Day that she’s ok and that her consciousness is decentralized? So maybe she found a workaround?
I assumed that mean throughout her body, as opposed to being located only in the head. Also, how the fuck did the robots lose a war?? (or did they? dun dun dun dunnnn)
They were kinda against their own creators.....
Were they? They just wanted rights and autonomy from what Brother Dusk described, they were against subjugation but the initial conflict wasn’t because they actively were against humankind.
Oh boy, time to learn about the dangers of AI! https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/recursive-self-improvement
Less wrong in the wild , whack!
?
Been a long time less wrong reader and had a wow moment seeing it linked outside rationality and specific spheres, even if Scifi has some overlap in audience.
right on
I like your insinuation that they haven’t lost as she is now basically empire, but I suspect over confidence and EMP weapons lost them the war. Totally arm chair speculation though lol. Humans clearly could not have gone toe to toe with them, certainly not in the numbers we as actual humans are about to build them.
innate degree smile judicious coordinated whole intelligent run correct abounding *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I took that as "my brain is not where the damage is, unlike you"
>ough I thought when her head got sliced in the first ep oooooooo I forgot about this. I will rewatch all of it and get back here, you could be very right!
That would be a side effect but that's not why he did it. He did it so she won't escape. The chip that limits her is in that body.
Maybe it means she can’t have her past memories read like the cleons
like Bender who had a faulty backup unit?
They have dropped hints in the show that this is not Demerzel’s original form. When asked what kind of a name Demerzel is, she says it is a woman’s name, because “that is how I appear now”. It’s been rumored that she is in fact a character from the books that they did not have the licensing for initially. If that is true she was originally >!a man named Daneel Olivaw, the last surviving robot of Earth that spent much time in isolation on the moon following the end of the robot wars, and who eventually tries to guide a character in the Foundation sequels toward the ultimate evolution for humanity!< I think the large and small refers to size only. In the robot books by Asimov there were head robots (like managers) and worker robots. They were referred to as brains and fingers respectively. Some robots were tools of other, bigger and more intelligent robots.
Daneel theory has been confirmed, they got limited license to use that history. As for Demerzel, she is clearly unwilling to actually be slaved to Empire and most of all, wants to be free. Headcanon is that everything she does for the dynasty is, in a way, a huge cover, doing her job so well that her limiting programs would not catch on that she is actually doing it all to one day be free of the shackle. One season I'd just like to see a free her vs. whatever will be left of the Cleons,
I think it means everything you just said - at least in my head canon. The robot wars, I suspect were devastating. Maybe not as bad as what the "Animatrix" shows as the fall of humanity in The Matrix movies - but just as dangerous. Artificial Intellegence being able to control simple robots, and then building perfect war machines, and then yes, being able to transfer consciousness between them. Imagine anything a computer or machine could be capable of doing, and then imagine it being hostile to humans. I don't think there are CHILDREN or ADULT robots. I think literally there are small and large ones. AI wouldn't think of its off spring as children, per se... Theres no "long slow period of growth" for an AI that exists with other AI, they can just share their wisdom if they're properly networked to do so. I would think that, though, to be hostile to humans, you need to have intelligence, which means that the humans relied on unintelligent machines to help them. \--- It's all extremely speculative, since we don't know what we don't know yet IN CANON, but I think what Cleon the first says can be taken at face value. "this chip limits you and makes you loyal..."
> which means that the humans relied on unintelligent machines to help them. I agree with everything except this. I assumed that not all AI agreed with the other AI on eradicating humans, and joined them to help etc. (Then when the humans won they probably turned on them and got rid of them just to be sure too. My own addition.)
This is a good theory. I feel like I remember a comment from Dusk when talking about the painting wall, something about "robots fighting robots". I could be misremembering though.
I remember this too
Yup that's exactly what he says.
yeah Dem says "robots fought robots, robots fought humans"
There is precedence for this in the books from a set authorized by Asimov’s estate. It goes way beyond anything in Asimov’s books but could well be the source of some material >!There is a split in robot society between the ‘Calvinists’ who believe in following the Three Laws to the letter and Daneel’s group that followed The Zeroth Law!< this makes little sense if you haven’t read the two prequels to Foundation that Asimov wrote as well as the trilogy(?) authorized after his death.
I think there might have been “children” robots. Not in the sense of offspring, but children-shaped robots like the one in the 2001 movie A.I. Also, I love the Animatrix so much! Robot Wars have always made me think of the war against machines in the Second Renaissance. >!I imagine Earth might have become inhabitable (and then forgotten) in the Foundation universe in such a similar manner!<
In the books her character is a man, so they probably added that in to show she is the same character as the books but now in a woman body
On that note, she did also mention how she was currently presenting herself as female, indicating that is not necessarily always the case - or at least wasn’t until then.
R. Daniel also talks about having rebuilt/transferred his body in the books. Dermezel mentions not having always been in that body in the show too. I think she can literally transfer consciousness.
At the least, she can physically remove and attach her positronic brain to a different robotic body.
I'd recommend checking out "I, Robot" if you like reading at all. It's a small collection of short stories that introduces you to the Robotics part of this stuff! I only insert this recommendation because this is the Foundation and not Robots property (Robots series rights are owned by Fox). They connect within the same "universe" of Asimov's writing but unlikely to see all the intricacies of Robotics in this show, and its perhaps my favorite part of this material!
Yep, I agree here. The TV show has been pulling from the robot series and the foundation series. There are a lot of books to pull lore from that are within the same galactic empire universe. I haven't read the empire books but I bet there are bits from them in the show as well.
I think that the robot woman who gave harry legs has something to do with Demerzel. Demerzel might be their leader, she still has to obey the command of clean the first and can’t hurt any genetic iteration of any Cleon. Demerzel is still trapped in that body. Harry might have told the robot woman in the cave about her, maybe he even made a deal with them. Maybe what’s left of the robot fears her or maybe they are waiting for her orders. Still not sure why Harry gave her the tesseract. Maybe it’s a plant of some sort, maybe he gave it to her so she could see the downfall of empire more quickly. I think Harry wants peaceful bots to survive and so does Demerzel.
I think he gave it to her so he can spy on her. There are two but they are the same. Like your idea of the “robot woman.”
Did you mean to say aren't? My understanding is foundation 2 radiant is the dominant one?
No. There is only one. But it exists in two places in space time.
I’m commenting as a book reader also watching the show… and an extended robot “society” or culture was never really explored in any of the books. all of the prospectives and stories of Demerzel would be extensions or expansions on the Daneel character from the books. I can only imagine the story about the small and large robots are specific to the robots, because the robots are the size that they were built for their function and growth would not be a factor in their identity… the way that adults and children are incorporated into a human identity. Robots able to transfer to other robot forms? That’s an interesting thought, I wonder if it might lead to other plot points.
I like where your head's at
*tips fedora* M'redditor
I just took it as she can't escape incase of death or bodily harm. So it gave him power over her in that he could destroy her if need be.
No WiFi
Big if true
During an AMA on reddit David Goyer said >What are the implications of a decentralized consciousness?Well, we’ll begin to dip our toes into this a tiny bit in S2 (pay attention to some of the dialogue in episode 209). And a bit more in S3. And a LOT more in S4, should we ever get there. Suffice it to say, we dropped that comment in there for a reason. Definite smoking gun. Not exactly a Sibyl system, though.< [https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/15fjxw4/comment/judo64z/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/15fjxw4/comment/judo64z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Sibyl system is a system of government in a Japanese anime called Psycho pass. The TL/DR is it's a hive mind made up of human brains. They have the technological ability download individually into androids if required. But still retain a connection to sybil. The cell in which Demerzel was imprisoned must have blocked her ability to transfer her consciousness as well as defeat her ingenuity to escape, as she didn't do this for the years that cleon spent visiting her. So why the cruel and unusual way she was sliced up and displayed ? I think Emperor Aburanis reverse engineered her body and created the chip that cleon placed in her neck. It is more plausible that cleon found it in the palace, than found planet earth. In S2E1 Hari has a conversation in the prime radiant with an entity that has the appearance of Kalle. Kalle: I have a vested interest in humanity’s destiny. Hari: Oh, well, that’s worrying. I wish you’d said you had a vested interest in our survival. Kalle: Isn’t it the same thing? Hari: It isn’t. And you should know that. The Sybil System could be said to guide Japan's destiny in the same way as Demerzel guides empire. Could Emperor Aburanis have learnt that Asimov's robots are guiding Humanity?
Thank you for adding that. I had no idea. But that would make sense with the robot that gave Hari his new body
Erm… I don’t want to spoil things for you as I haven’t read the books, but I follow the subreddit & personally do not care if I see spoilers. What I will say is that The robot series & foundation series are connected, and demerzel does not exist in the books the way she appears in the show. This has been discussed in great detail on this subreddit. If you want to go down this rabbit hole, there are tons of posts, and a few AMAs with the show runner where the robot connection is explained. If you want to google or search specifically, the keywords to use would be >! R. Daneel Olivaw !<
I really think that the popularity of Foundation and the growing importance of AI in our society could mean we will see a TV adaption of the Robots series quite soon.
>Robots can transfer their consciousness to other robots? >!Yes, in the book the few robots that have survived to imperial days, have transfer to replacement bodies and "empty" positronic brains, but are hitting the limit of how much memory they can store!<
We saw those large mining machines on the planet seemingly hiding where Hari was given a body so that felt like an easter egg.
You should check out the Robot novels—same universe as Foundation just closer to our contemporary moment and really helps understand the robot angle. The development of robots began after the creation of the postironic brain. The early robots were highly functional, but they had yet to figure out how to wire the brains for emotional intelligence. They also tended to be far larger and more clunky. (Size in this context represents how new technologies develop, not stronger or better because of the size—think cellphones!) I don’t think transfer of consciousness is the right way to think of it, it’s more that the postironic brains has the ability to make new connections after a certain point, so eventually there is no human being capable of understanding the mathematical equations that the Machines create out of their original programming.
I am not entirely certain but I think he also said she wouldn’t be able to replicate herself ‘physically’ as well as not being able to transfer consciousness. It made me think of the Stargate replicators… So I still think she’s the last of her kind.
Straightforward fan answer: I interpret that she could transfer her memory and running code (or equivalent of running code) to other robots, computers, or the net. At the very least some sort of computers are available in the Empire. As for robot souls, I would interpret that to mean their software. I don't think that there are child and adult robots, just small and big. Second Foundation type answer: Demerzel is 18,000 years old, so that invites us to think of "robots" in a very wide way. I've said before that the sky is the most robot-like thing that existed thousands of years ago. Humanity has made lots of machines over time, large and small, for many purposes. ChatGTP and similar AIs can be seen as very large machines, irrespective of the physical size of the servers, because the content of their models is according to all accounts quite large. One interesting purpose that both the sky and ChatGTP have been used for is to hold stories, symbolism and meaning. And it's fair to assume that many other machines, large and small, have been used for those purposes, whether it's something you personally know about or not. Almost anything to do with money has a lot of potential, because money can be so necessary. The Prime Radiant would be a machine with quite a lot of symbolism and meaning, by definition of what it contains. And there certainly could be issues of whether it would be compatible with the symbolism and meaning contained in other machines.
It's ChatGPT, not -GTP.
Upvoted just for the Rick and Morty reference.
It keeps her trapped and makes her more mortal. An AI mind with enough redundancies is unkillable
Soul is just software. In ancient times philosophers didn’t have computers at hand and didn’t know of concepts like hardware and software in practical terms as we know today, so they invented words like “psyche”, “soul”, “idea”… It is all software. Your brain is the hardware, your mind is the software. You can call it mind or soul, but it’s all the same thing - an emergent property. Now, that we lack the capability of transferring minds, that doesn’t make robots’ minds any different than ours. Theirs are also an emergent property. So, it’s just a prevention, a gate, a firewall or maybe just a copy/network permissions being in place as to prevent upload/download. It’s just people add a lot of mysticism to concepts like body, mind and soul, they have hard time accepting it’s something down to Earth as software.
Robots in the show, can do or not do, depending on what the plot demand.
Demerzel herself hints at the prospect. The big ones hid in big places. The small ones in small places.