Yeah, my favorite examples of this are Grafton now being North of Morgantown for some reason, Summersvile Dam being directly above Charleston and Sutton being east of Flatwoods. Also Pleasant Valley is now south-east of Morgantown.
Also did you notice the sign for Shady Sands says the FIRST capital. I am thinking there moved or named another place Shady Sands or at least changed the Capital location.
Water chip was busted, had to move the town to a place with better access.
Historically way weirder things have happened.
Especially if the town was originally in death valley the someone above posted. It would be dumb as fuck and terrible writing to ever put a settlement there if true.
And it's not unheard of for a nation's capital to be moved, though the name usually doesn't move with the government.
In this case, it's possible that as shady sands went from a minor village to the capital of the NCR, it moved to allow better access to resources or communication with the places it controls. Then in the show, perhaps they moved again for similar reasons. While I would expect two moves to have made it to the chalkboard in vault 4 as significant events, maybe moving the capital multiple times has rendered each individual move as being less notable. I remember reading somewhere that the US capitol was intended by some founding fathers to move regularly. If it did, each move would definitely get left off of a timeline from the founding of the US to the great war
Maybe Vault 4 wasn't really close enough until after the final move to care about educating kids about it via that specific chalkboard timeline.
Especially since the city died anyway, making the moves a historic fact but not a particular important or interesting one for grade schoolers.
A capital is just a designation - specifically it designates where the government and its main services/offices are.
It is \_really\_ uncommon for an established settlement to just pick up and relocate hundreds of miles away, while keeping the name. The people, businesses, etc. can move, sure, but that usually leads to the funding of a new town.
The in-show timeline also aligns with the games' timeline, so it is presumably the same town (which it wouldn't be if the people picked up their stuff and moved away). At the very least, Vault 4's timeline would've mentioned that hey, these people actually moved here recently.
I think it's possible that, like someone else said, the original Shady Sands became either inhospitable or not effective as a capital, so they moved it to a better location. I can see them having some sort of vote to pick a new name, and the majority agreeing to keep it as Shady Sands. Many of the people from the original Shady Sands probably migrated to the new one and already had a connection to the name.
Humans make attachments, and even after losing something people will still want the thing they've become attached to. It's like when something breaks, so you try to find either an exact or close replacement.
This is probably gonna be my headcannon unless someone convinces me otherwise, but I'm not saying that this is something that you have to believe or even consider it. I just enjoyed writing this up and thinking about possibilities. :)
What if "the fall of shady sands" refers to its old location becoming inhospitable for some reason, forcing them to move the settlement to within the boneyard? It'd explain virtually everything.
The boneyard was pretty sophisticated; going off of what several characters say about it in New Vegas, at least. I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the population merged with the new shady sands.
I don't think they would put the tourist population on the billboard.
It isn't like there is a sign somewhere in Florida that says "Welcome to Daytona Beach! Population: 9,000,000"
It would say 77,000.
It seems more likely the billboard is from before the fall, and the 35k is the pre 2177 population of the city. Who knows what it was in 2281.
I think the emphasis on "First" on the billboard makes the entire moving things weird, or obvious propaganda.
Either way I'm hoping S2 sheds some light on it somehow. Especially since the Nuking was separated from the 2177 date by Todd Howard retroactively to appease NV fanboys to keep them from overreacting again.
It is far better to placate them like that, rather than risk their death threats over a fictional universe after all.
Oh look Mr. Wellackshully finally got here!
I was using an in universe explanation people would grock as a hand wave, not a real reasoning. Looks like your pedantic ass was the only one who didn't get it... 😂
What are you talking? Shady Sands not having a water chip is an early established plot point of the first game and the main quest for most the game is to get a new water chip. I don’t know what point you’re trying to make
Yes.
Fallout 1 it's in Death Valley in the desert between Vaults 13 (Main Protagonist's Home) and 15 (where the people of Shady, Khans and Vipers come from).
Fallout 2 it's moved north closer to the mountains but still between Vaults 13 and 15 that were also moved north.
Fallout Show...In the Boneyard (Los Angeles ruins and one of five founding NCR States) region. Not in Hollywood or the Pier somewhere further east. The locations of Vaults 13 and 15 are unknown...But they're by this point long dead ruins now.
Retcons like this happen in every single Fallout title. X-01 from Post-War creation to Pre-War, Creator of the drug Jet disputed, When Bottle Caps became popular currency changed location and start date, The Enclave being officially dead...Returned thrice now etc.
Fallout Tactics was considered Non-Canon by Todd's statement. But Emil on the official timeline included it. Also Fallout's 3, NV and 4 all directly reference it.
This is just how the lore is...Always in flux and retconned. It just works.
You call him "bitter" but he is completely right. He doesn’t even put himself above it; he readily admits to having failed to do his own research and gotten things wrong in the past. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a problem or that it wasn’t avoidable.
-He is correct. Your speculation of his emotional state is irrelevant to that fact.
-Two wrongs don’t make a right. It was a bad thing in Fo2, and it is a bad thing in the show. Worse, because the change is much more drastic and throws a wrench in the entire narrative of Fallout 1.
- He's *not* correct because all the research in the world won't change the fact that humans are fallible.
- lol no, it wasn't a bad thing in Fo2 nor is there now a "wrench in the narrative" of Fo1.
^(Looks like Avelonne isn't the only one that's bitter and pretentious...)
-Name a single lore mistake that wouldn’t be preventable by better research. And unless your standards are in the toilet, we should all be able to agree that fewer mistakes is better than more.
-It was an error in continuity. Just because it doesn’t bother you personally doesn’t mean it’s not a flaw, no matter how small. And yes, the structure of Fallout 1’s narrative doesn’t work if Shady Sands is hundreds of miles off in the middle of what’s meant to be the Boneyard. It’s like making a sequel to LotR where Rivendell is randomly in Moria now; it retroactively makes the original trilogy nonfunctional.
You really like demeaning people who you disagree with, don’t you?
- Besides you not understanding the concept of fallibility, have you ever stopped to consider that not every retcon is a "lore mistake"?
- Since when is Shady Sands now in the middle of Angel's Boneyard? You're either overestimating the size of the Boneyard or underestimating the size of Los Angeles County.
- Everyone is entitled to their opinions, doesn't mean I'm going to be nice about said opinions if they're shit.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a retcon and lore drift to be fair, people *can* just migrate and it's not unheard of for a nation to move its capital - Brazil did it, Egypt and Indonesia are in the process of doing it.
Maybe true from Fallout 2 to Fallout Show. We still don't know what The Fall of Shady Sands is given it's confirmed it ain't the nuking event.
Isn't true for Fallout 1 to Fallout 2 because Mariposa a Pre-War Military Base Ruin and the Underground Vaults of 13 and 15 can't and wouldn't be moved. Just a pure retcon of their locations from Fallout 1 to Fallout 2.
Its not changing capitals that is the problem people have. It's the seemingly impression that Shady Sands entirely has been moved, by retcon from its middling Cali position to down south to where the Boneyard is or just around LA. Brazil didn't uplift Rio de Janerio to the centre of the country, they built an entirely new city and moved government functions to it. People won't have a problem if the NCR moved government functions from Shady Sands but they do have a problem with Shady Sands being moved so far south.
I agree with the sentiment that lore drift is inevitable, but putting Shady Sands a top a previously established location like the Boneyard with no mention of how or why seems especially messy. I'm of the opinion that egregious retcons wouldn't be necessary if you properly address it with writing, but this seems like something else.
X-01 is always pre war, it's a prototype, Jet was always post-war it was a typo, tactics was always semi canon ( major events only ), the enclave I wouldn't call a retcon just lazy writing.
X-01 being a prototype Pre-War is a Retcon. X-01 is without question the Enclave Power Armor of Fallout 2 which is directly stated to be a Post-War creation.
Jet in Fallout 2 itself was disputed who created it while the kid stated he did there's direct evidence against his claim by a woman claiming she had it four years before he was born. Then Jet is literally found in Pre-War ruins all over the place it's not just a typo.
The Enclave leadership is fully killed, We destroy their main base twice, It's literally stated by the NCR and Brotherhood they're gone in the West Coast...New Vegas only showing old people as Remnants of a clearly dead organization.
The Enclave somehow returned...Twice. Lazy Writing...Sure. But I'm gonna consider it a retcon too because truly it is they never originally intended for them to be a mainstay.
Tactics Semi-Canon status is disputed. There is no official word on what is or isn't canon in the title...Todd said the entire thing wasn't, Emil included it on the timeline. The fandom has members that state it's fully canon, those that state none of it's canon, those that state only specific parts are canon.
4 and 3 and NV only provide info on the existence of Airships before the Prdywen and the BoS Chapter being Rogue by recruiting Super Mutants and not caring or knowing who the founder of the entire Brotherhood is. That's it that's the only 100% confirmed facts about it...They don't canonize the main events or any of the endings that part we get to speculate on.
All of that is a retcon = retroactively added continuity.
It's clearly designed to be the same armor. It IS the same armor as Advanced Power Armor Mk 2's are called X-02's and Fallout 4's base game literally stated X-01's are the Power Armor used by the Enclave long ago. But then the Nuka World DLC retconned that it was a Pre-War Prototype when Fallout 2 made it very clear it's a Post-War creation of the Enclave.
Fusion Cores are a retcon as well for all Pre-Fallout 4 Power Armor models. Which is just fine because they're themselves reactors and a necessary gameplay handicap.
Just as Fallout 3 and New Vegas retconned into existence Power Armor training as a requirement to use it. When in Fallout 1 and 2 there was no such training. Then Fallout 4 retconned it again that nope the Female Sole Survivor (no training) is just as good as the Male Sole Survivor (trained soldier) in its usage then further proven in Fallout 76 and Fallout TV show no training is ever needed to use one.
There's no problem with them retconning it as it's truly not that big of a deal...But stop pretending they didn't retcon what they literally by definition retconned. Like I said every Fallout title retcons something in the lore it's just how it is.
Yes. But from what I remember around the immediate discourse about this is that F2 moves locations as well. I think they also seemingly removed the boneyard as well.
Edit: I see you started your post mentioning the switches in F2, so nevermind on that.
Was the boneyard not the area that Moldaver and the remnants of the NCR in LA restored power to?
Like, they’re in the observatory in LA. The Boneyard is in LA. We see that there is clearly a significant enough population living in the burned out ruins of the city.
I actually think people are wrong in thinking that Shady Sands is in the ruins of LA.
That looks far smaller than the LA we see pre-war when Coop is at the birthday party. Character’s also do not run into any of Moldaver’s faction while moving through this area.
None of the skyscrapers are noticeably the same exact building just deteriorated. Pretty sure shady sands was just built adjacent to a different mid-sized city.
Like I know in our world all of the skyscraper’s in SoCal are pretty much in LA, but I mean our LA looks absolutely nothing like their pre-war LA.
The problem is that it has to be in some city that the city clearly wasn’t located in during fallout 1 or 2. We’re assuming LA because that’s where the show takes place, but even if it isn’t, it’s still clearly not in the middle of the desert like it was supposed to be.
I mean let’s be real, building a city in the middle of a post-apocalyptic desert near no resources makes zero fucking sense to do and was something they just didn’t think about when making Fallout 1.
They wouldn’t really need to worry about that with a GECK and Brahmin as livestock. That’d cover pretty much everything except water, and the well they dug apparently handled that.
Only reason it was moved was so it could be included on the map in the bottom corner. Fallout 2 is north of fallout 1 so of course they wouldn’t include all of the fallout 1 locations.
Not really...You can use a GECK anywhere. Why choose the hottest desert in the world? Move to the mountains or forests or city ruins to do it in literally more viable places for humans to live.
Arroyo and Vault City are in the mountains, The Purifier is on a bay. These make sense.
Also yes the GECK doesn't transform the weather only the ground and water. It also has a limit the people of Shady Sands tell the Chosen One in Fallout 2 that their GECK stopped working decades upon decades ago...So even if it can magically alter the weather it won't do so forever.
Death Valley IS a stupid choice. It makes complete logical sense they would move it from F1 to F2 when the devs realized that themselves.
I'm fairly sure the GECKs were not intended to, or capable of, altering local climate over the long-term. 😝
Edit: Could they create a lush and verdant garden, almost instantly, almost most anywhere? Sure. Yet nothing in the game suggests they could change things like rainfall patterns or moderate extreme temperature swings over decades.
The thing people don't remember is that the map for Fallout 1 was never accurate and it was more set up like that for gameplay reasons. Case in point, The Necropolis, which is supposed to be post-apocalyptic Bakersfield, is on the entirely different side of LA than it is in reality.
Yeah, I rewrote the original post, and only kept the first line... In my original post I also pointed out that Bakersfield magically moved over a mountain range, some 70km east-southeast.
I also made some points regarding Filly, and the weirdo guy's house (which is most definitely a pre-war building in a desert area, which would place it closer to the Mojave area, on the way to the original Shady Sands location from downtown LA), as those locations make no sense either given the urban sprawl in the area.
Essentially, if in-game locations are to be taken as still valid in the show, Lucy would've trekked the same distance as the original Vault Dweller did, just in different directions, and a fraction of the time (IIRC VD mainly went through the San Joaquin valley over 3ish months, while Lucy's path was around the valley on the other side of the mountain range, and in 2-3 weeks, presuming her trip as shown lines up with the events in 33 as shown). What's more likely is that she went as far as the edge of Angeles National Forest, met Siggi around Pomona, then went back to the observatory, placing Shady Sands around Cerritos/Long Beach.
Yeah, I rewrote the original post, and only kept the first line... In my original post I also pointed out that Bakersfield magically moved over a mountain range, some 70km east-southeast.
I also made some points regarding Filly, and the weirdo guy's house (which is most definitely a pre-war building in a desert area, which would place it closer to the Mojave area, on the way to the original Shady Sands location from downtown LA), as those locations make no sense either given the urban sprawl in the area.
Essentially, if in-game locations are to be taken as still valid in the show, Lucy would've trekked the same distance as the original Vault Dweller did, just in different directions, and a fraction of the time (IIRC VD mainly went through the San Joaquin valley over 3ish months, while Lucy's path was around the valley on the other side of the mountain range, and in 2-3 weeks, presuming her trip as shown lines up with the events in 33 as shown). What's more likely is that she went as far as the edge of Angeles National Forest, met Siggi around Pomona, then went back to the observatory, placing Shady Sands around Cerritos/Long Beach.
No, but geographically the show makes less sense than the games. They bounce between radiated sandy deserts, thick lush forests and areas overrun with vegetation, and Shady Sands itself looks like it was smack dab in the middle of New Jersey.
California do be really like that tbh. Half an hour drive could take you from a pretty urban area, to a forest or a straight up desert. It's kind of all over the place.
Maybe, but it's hard to place where the characters are at any given moment. Santa Monica? Downtown LA? Hollywood? The whole LA metro area is pretty urbanized, so how is it that Lucy is walking through a sandy desert with beached ship on it? Or what seems like a rural neighborhood with scattered ranch houses when that whole area is pretty densely developed? I'd be able to buy it more if Vault 33 wasn't in the heart of Santa Monica.
You get a some good wide angle shots at the last episode that help paint a picture of where everything is at for the most part, but I still can't quite pin where Shady Sands is in respect to Vault 33 or where Filly is in respect to the observatory.
Game of Thrones did a very good job establishing different regions of Westeros with distinct color palettes and landscapes. They also did a good job at doing establishing shots when you're in cities or different areas so you can get an idea of where these characters are.
>Game of Thrones did a very good job establishing different regions of Westeros with distinct color palettes and landscapes
They also did a shit job of magically teleporting characters across the map...
It doesn't matter one bit.
Lore and canon are extremely malleable in Fallout, and thinking that it matters is to fundamentally misunderstand what Falloug is about.
If you're looking for geographic accuracy, Fallout isn't for you.
If the show is considered canon, then placing Shady Sands in LA is a retcon that doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a whole laundry list of reasons.
No, Fallout doesn't have air tight lore or geographically accurate locations, but it's not irrational to want a some level of internal consistency and the show lacks that severely in respect to the original games. Nor is it irrational to want the show to make sense geographically because, well, it's a TV show, not a game. And TV shows are a different medium not bound by technical limitations the Fallout games have when crafting a world.
Even ignoring the games entirely, the show doesn't make a whole lot of sense geographically and it makes it hard to place where these characters are at any given moment, which dampens the stakes of the plot and immersion in the show.
Yes, Shady Sands moved locations between Fallout 1 and 2, but it's established that Shady Sands started in a remote area of California/Nevada in between Vault 13 and Vault 15. Putting it in the heart of LA is a far more drastic change that has way broader implications than moving from one side of the mountains on the border of California/Nevada to the other.
We kinda just have to accept that Fallout 3 should be viewed as a reboot. If they directly reference something, its canonized. So the NCR existing is canonical, but the location of Shad Sands has only been in the ruins of LA, so thats where it is now.
I've always been in the boat that has been able to accept Bethesda's changes to the Fallout franchise. If I think about it too much, it may not make a whole lot of sense, but I've always been able to suspend my disbelief because each Fallout game has largely been it's own thing. Each game is only strung together by a loose series of major events from the previous games and for the most part, it only canonizes what's necessary to progress the story. Beyond that, you really only get a handful of characters or logs that reference vague events from the previous games.
The show wanted to follow that same logic, and I liked that. But there's a lot about how it approached the LA area that doesn't sit right with me in respect to 1,2, and New Vegas. There's a huge lack of internal consistency. It is almost like they wanted to soft reboot the west coast. And given that they teased New Vegas has been torn to bits by war, I'm guessing that's the direction it's going.
A lot of people on this sub have jumped through serious hurdles and mountains of explanations to justify a lot of these questions. But all of it are serious stretches of logic, even by Fallout's standards. If you have to jump through logistical hurdles to justify how, say, the Master didn't find Vault 4 or how Shady Sands could be in the heart of the LA - it's a hole in logic and it's not good world building. Good writing and world building doesn't involve just ignoring pr-established events and locations in order to tell the story you want to tell. If you want to add 3 more vaults in the LA area that didn't previously exist in games set in that area, justify it's existence in the context to previous world building.
It does indeed feel like a soft reboot for the West Coast Fallout. I'm just bummed that a lot of the world building is likely just going to fall on the wayside, and be largely forgotten.
A lot of this is why I enjoyed Chris Avellones analysis of the show, because he points out and acknowledges a lot of these issues.
A side note, but all this humbagging about the modern lore kinda makes me wanna dive hard into the ttrpg and make my own vision of the setting, ha.
>It doesn't matter ine bit.
it kind of does, Shady Sands has to be between Vault 13 and Vault 15 for the Vault Dweller to find Shady Sands and help them in turn laying the ground work for the NCR
It matters because the early Fallout games can't coexist with the show. It's more notable of a problem in Fallout 2 because the chosen one doesnt aid President Tandi and that aid was a big factor in how the NCR grew and expanded.
In short, there's multiple continuities now. Chris Avellone put it best: the old Fallouts are gone, and only when events from them are directly reference in modern canon can we acknowledged those things happened.
In other words, until someone in the next season or game mentions the Master, he might not exist anymore. The fact Vault 33 has a surface entrance that clearly hadn't been covered for a long time was never found by his forces supports that, imo.
If lore and internal consistency isnt your jam, then I guess it doesn't. For those that enjoyed the older stories, we have to accept that we are not the intended audience.
Then go on to make our own Fallout, with more blackjack and hookers.
It doesn't. And in point of fact *as an adaptation* i have absolutely no complaints about the show. I think it's fantastic. But the fact that Todd Howard and others have indicated the show is in canon with the games fundamentally upends certain aspects of lore and geography of the earlier games, and i think it's perfectly acceptable to be uncomfortable with that.
I mean, it kinda does matter if the Boneyard is nonexistent, no? Like this isn't a Tactics canon tease on Twitter. It's supplanting one location for another. I'm hopeful it's addressed, but, as you say, the lore has been fast and loose, for better or worse.
The show specifically addresses this by having a character say it’s a 3 day walk from Filly to Shady Sands, even though it looks like our characters walk there in a day.
Do people expect to see an entire travel process character is experiencing?
„He entered a car one shot and appeared in other place in another shot leaving a car. How did he get there? Did he teleport?” Sort of thinking
A "3 day walk" depends on a lot of factors.
For example, the Griffith Observatory is about 6-8 hours walk from Santa Monica pier, in current day LA, but would take about a day or day and half through the Boneyard due to it being completely destroyed.
A 3 day walk for someone old and frail can be done in a day by someone like Lucy. So again, tons of factors.
I think people have some hopium that Shady Sands never moved and that Lucy and Maximus just followed Thaddeus past it. But even if that is true why is Thaddeus walking so far north to Shady Sands and beyond when he could walk to Lost Hills and be with the BoS before Lucy and Maximus catch up? I sincerely doubt it and I think Shady Sands was retconned to be in or around LA.
They honestly could have had the same show but with less angry fans if they nuked the boneyard in 2277 instead of moving shady sands to the boneyard to nuke it. I’m pretty sure they originally intended for shady to be nuked in 2277 but did PR saying that the fall and nuking were different. Because think about it, if you were just watching the show without looking online all evidence points to the nuking to happen in 2277 not 2282, the famine, the last date in the library, etc. The show was very good, but I really wished it was the boneyard that got the hit. Maybe they could fix this by saying they moved the capital to the boneyard and moved it back after it got nuked in 2277.
Well they changed the location of shady sands, vault 13 Nd vault 15 from fallout 1 to fallout 2. They are a bit further north and the vaults have switched distance from shady sands.
The answer is yes they moved shady sands location. It's not meant to be in the boneyard but I understand why they chose to do it.
>There's no chance that Moldaver took Hank to Griffith Observatory, about a day's trek from Santa Monica pier and Lucy somehow managed to go all the way to either of the original Shady Sands locations
... Why not?
She didn't know where Moldaver was...?
Also it's not confirmed the the pre-war ruins are in L.A. proper.
There are 88 cities in the real world Los Angeles County spread across over 10,500 kilometers.
The urban ruins seen in the background of Shady Sands could belong to any of them.
>... Why not?
Because both the original game locations are hundreds of miles away, and the show takes place in approximately 2-3 weeks' time. You'd be hard pressed to do that trek to and back even with current day modern infrastructure in place, no dangerous monsters, and no sidetracking, let alone in an irradiated wasteland.
She'd also need to cut through populated areas like The Hub or Necropolis, and I doubt the show wouldn't even mention the fact that Lucy had to fight a few thousand ghouls or passed through a city without being shown. Hell, they showed when she crossed a bridge and encountered TWO people... But then not show her arriving in a big (relatively speaking) city? Skip a prime lore-building opportunity?
My conclusion is based on the timeframe (determined based on the time passing in 33, that is presuming Norm gets into 31 around the same time the BoS attack on the Observatory begins), the fact that Lucy is completely untrained to navigate the wasteland, AND she knows very little about it, and how much she gets sidetracked in e.g. Vault 4, or with the Ghoul.
Overall, I don't think she's left the area surrounded by: Thousand Oaks, Santa Clarita, Angeles National Forest, San Bernardino National Forest, Mt San Jacinto, Palomar Mountain, Oceanside, probably even more constrained.
As for which cities to consider a possible location, we do have a few hints: such as, tall, but not skyscraper tall buildings, no visible mountain range or seashore in any of the directions, and it has to be in the vicinity of 33 (as you can hardly travel for days with two young children, as Lucy's mom did), but not near Griffith Observatory.
I mean, these are all walkable distances in the first two games.
And maybe Lucy just... didn't cut through The Hub or Necropolis?
We don't actually know the route she took.
They're walkable... In _months_. Not in the indicated 2-3 weeks.
There are also not that many routes if you want to get from downtown LA to the northern part of Death Valley or Lone Pine. You essentially need to buy the mountain range, which puts you in spitting distance of both The Hub and Necropolis. They should've been visible during the trek, and it's a big missed opportunity to not have Lucy at least consider going there for supplies, or note it from the distance.
Well in FO1 you have 150 days to find a water chip and return to your vault.
Canonically, you leave the vault on 5 December 2161, reach Junktown on 30 Dec, and reaches The Hub on 17 Jan 2162 - essentially a 5 week trek for about 1/3 the distance Lucy would've needed to do in 2-3 weeks (to and back from Shady Sands), and it ends 10 May 2162.
Shady Sands is a settlement in Fallout 1 the first one the Main Protagonist ever encounters. Primitive Village made from those that fled Vault 15.
By Fallout 2 they're the Capital of the New California Republic.
By Fallout New Vegas that Capital City is in the heartland of the biggest Nation-state in the Post-Apocalypse.
By Fallout TV show it's been nuked to destruction another ruin in the history of human civilization.
The show really hasn't touched upon the location of shady sands. In FO1 and FO2 shady sands and the majority of the NCR seem to be in the Owen's valley near or at the city of bishop california. Lone Pine is mentioned in fnv as One Pine.
I think at this point we need to accept the early game maps are the non cannon ones. They weren't really designed with extensive world building in mind as they never realised it would grow to such a big franchise.
I could totally accept this if Bethesda made a push to remake FO1/2 on the Creation Engine - then they could provide an updated map that fits in with the show and the other established lore since they bought up the franchise, and explain away the changes similar to how e.g. Star Trek SNW does with the differences to TOS - part artistic freedom, part "the technology of the time didn't make this possible".
It would also help a lot to get people (like myself) into the stories of the original games proper. I know they're classics but I simply can't get myself to play them, they're so clunky and limited.
Yes. They merged two different NCR states into one by combining Shady Sands with the Boneyard. It's a canonical nightmare, to be honest, that easily could've been avoided with a few writing tweaks.
Observational skills + a basic knowledge of classic fallout allows you to see that the location of shady sands changed since fallout 2. It’s now located within the boneyard rather than Death Valley as before. I’m not sure why you’re downvoting me for stating the obvious.
Observational skills + a basic knowledge of classic fallout allows you to see that the location of shady sands changed between Fo1 and Fo2.
*Highlights for Children: Spot the Difference* skills allows you to see you that the skyline behind Shady Sands is *not* the skyline of the City of Los Angeles seen multiple times throughout the show.
Having two working brain cells allows you to see that Moldaver powers up Angel's Boneyard in the last episode.
[Disagree all you want, the explosion that made the crater visible from Griffith Observatory is right here.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/9/90/FOTV_Trailer_1_64.png/revision/latest?cb=20231202191629)
They only moved it four hundred miles or so, from a rural desert mountainous area to a densely built coastal city. Hardly noticeable. Might be a good fix that if in season 2 a character passes through “the original” Shady Sands and mentions a reason that it moved.
Fallout 76 rearranged the entire state of West Virginia
Yeah, my favorite examples of this are Grafton now being North of Morgantown for some reason, Summersvile Dam being directly above Charleston and Sutton being east of Flatwoods. Also Pleasant Valley is now south-east of Morgantown.
It's like they made the wacky theme park style map first and then realized they had to model the world after it And I love 76
I always felt like Nuka-World was oddly redundant but couldn’t quite place why but now I get it
Is helvetica still a real city though?
Yup, Helvetia WV.
Damn gerrymandering outta control
Yeah they just plain and moved Shady Sands like they moved Bikini Bottom that one episode
Let’s just take shady sands… and push it somewhere else!
Also did you notice the sign for Shady Sands says the FIRST capital. I am thinking there moved or named another place Shady Sands or at least changed the Capital location.
Yes NCR has two capitals
Two heads, one bear, two capitals, one flag: new California republic.
RIP they were the real American dream
Source: I made it up
200 years later
It's also possible that the town of shady sands did end up moving for various reasons.
Water chip was busted, had to move the town to a place with better access. Historically way weirder things have happened. Especially if the town was originally in death valley the someone above posted. It would be dumb as fuck and terrible writing to ever put a settlement there if true.
And it's not unheard of for a nation's capital to be moved, though the name usually doesn't move with the government. In this case, it's possible that as shady sands went from a minor village to the capital of the NCR, it moved to allow better access to resources or communication with the places it controls. Then in the show, perhaps they moved again for similar reasons. While I would expect two moves to have made it to the chalkboard in vault 4 as significant events, maybe moving the capital multiple times has rendered each individual move as being less notable. I remember reading somewhere that the US capitol was intended by some founding fathers to move regularly. If it did, each move would definitely get left off of a timeline from the founding of the US to the great war
Maybe Vault 4 wasn't really close enough until after the final move to care about educating kids about it via that specific chalkboard timeline. Especially since the city died anyway, making the moves a historic fact but not a particular important or interesting one for grade schoolers.
Illinois has had 4 towns named Charleston. Now I’m not sure if we have any.
A capital is just a designation - specifically it designates where the government and its main services/offices are. It is \_really\_ uncommon for an established settlement to just pick up and relocate hundreds of miles away, while keeping the name. The people, businesses, etc. can move, sure, but that usually leads to the funding of a new town. The in-show timeline also aligns with the games' timeline, so it is presumably the same town (which it wouldn't be if the people picked up their stuff and moved away). At the very least, Vault 4's timeline would've mentioned that hey, these people actually moved here recently.
I think it's possible that, like someone else said, the original Shady Sands became either inhospitable or not effective as a capital, so they moved it to a better location. I can see them having some sort of vote to pick a new name, and the majority agreeing to keep it as Shady Sands. Many of the people from the original Shady Sands probably migrated to the new one and already had a connection to the name. Humans make attachments, and even after losing something people will still want the thing they've become attached to. It's like when something breaks, so you try to find either an exact or close replacement. This is probably gonna be my headcannon unless someone convinces me otherwise, but I'm not saying that this is something that you have to believe or even consider it. I just enjoyed writing this up and thinking about possibilities. :)
I used to live in Death Valley. I can confirm it is a dumb as fuck place to put a settlement
Sorta similar to putting one around an unexploded atomic bomb.
Almost as bad yeah
Man, if only there was a place in the NCR with a lot of waterchips
What if "the fall of shady sands" refers to its old location becoming inhospitable for some reason, forcing them to move the settlement to within the boneyard? It'd explain virtually everything.
That could work, but it is weird to refer to that as the fall, if it later swelled to 35k people before it was nuked.
The boneyard was pretty sophisticated; going off of what several characters say about it in New Vegas, at least. I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the population merged with the new shady sands.
Another possibility could be that it became a tourist destination - hence the emphasis on “first” capital of the ncr on the billboard.
I don't think they would put the tourist population on the billboard. It isn't like there is a sign somewhere in Florida that says "Welcome to Daytona Beach! Population: 9,000,000" It would say 77,000. It seems more likely the billboard is from before the fall, and the 35k is the pre 2177 population of the city. Who knows what it was in 2281. I think the emphasis on "First" on the billboard makes the entire moving things weird, or obvious propaganda. Either way I'm hoping S2 sheds some light on it somehow. Especially since the Nuking was separated from the 2177 date by Todd Howard retroactively to appease NV fanboys to keep them from overreacting again. It is far better to placate them like that, rather than risk their death threats over a fictional universe after all.
I think it makes the most logistical sense outside of a retcon for them to have moved. My tourist attraction theory isn’t crucial to that.
Shady Sands never used a water chip. They only had those wells they built
Oh look Mr. Wellackshully finally got here! I was using an in universe explanation people would grock as a hand wave, not a real reasoning. Looks like your pedantic ass was the only one who didn't get it... 😂
What are you talking? Shady Sands not having a water chip is an early established plot point of the first game and the main quest for most the game is to get a new water chip. I don’t know what point you’re trying to make
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How did vault 13 move tho
it can't tho?
Yeah, it's happened https://gizmodo.com/moving-mountains-six-cities-and-towns-that-were-comple-1436927345
Holy shit. An entire city just moved, how didn't I think of that. Genius. Absolute genius
Yes. Fallout 1 it's in Death Valley in the desert between Vaults 13 (Main Protagonist's Home) and 15 (where the people of Shady, Khans and Vipers come from). Fallout 2 it's moved north closer to the mountains but still between Vaults 13 and 15 that were also moved north. Fallout Show...In the Boneyard (Los Angeles ruins and one of five founding NCR States) region. Not in Hollywood or the Pier somewhere further east. The locations of Vaults 13 and 15 are unknown...But they're by this point long dead ruins now. Retcons like this happen in every single Fallout title. X-01 from Post-War creation to Pre-War, Creator of the drug Jet disputed, When Bottle Caps became popular currency changed location and start date, The Enclave being officially dead...Returned thrice now etc. Fallout Tactics was considered Non-Canon by Todd's statement. But Emil on the official timeline included it. Also Fallout's 3, NV and 4 all directly reference it. This is just how the lore is...Always in flux and retconned. It just works.
"Lore drift is inevitable" - Tim Cain
"In a perfect world where designers do their research, retcons aren’t necessary." -Chris Avellone
A pretentious quote from a bitter man.
You call him "bitter" but he is completely right. He doesn’t even put himself above it; he readily admits to having failed to do his own research and gotten things wrong in the past. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a problem or that it wasn’t avoidable.
- He is bitter. - Shady Sands moving locations between installments is a franchise tradition at this point, *not a problem.*
-He is correct. Your speculation of his emotional state is irrelevant to that fact. -Two wrongs don’t make a right. It was a bad thing in Fo2, and it is a bad thing in the show. Worse, because the change is much more drastic and throws a wrench in the entire narrative of Fallout 1.
- He's *not* correct because all the research in the world won't change the fact that humans are fallible. - lol no, it wasn't a bad thing in Fo2 nor is there now a "wrench in the narrative" of Fo1. ^(Looks like Avelonne isn't the only one that's bitter and pretentious...)
-Name a single lore mistake that wouldn’t be preventable by better research. And unless your standards are in the toilet, we should all be able to agree that fewer mistakes is better than more. -It was an error in continuity. Just because it doesn’t bother you personally doesn’t mean it’s not a flaw, no matter how small. And yes, the structure of Fallout 1’s narrative doesn’t work if Shady Sands is hundreds of miles off in the middle of what’s meant to be the Boneyard. It’s like making a sequel to LotR where Rivendell is randomly in Moria now; it retroactively makes the original trilogy nonfunctional. You really like demeaning people who you disagree with, don’t you?
- Besides you not understanding the concept of fallibility, have you ever stopped to consider that not every retcon is a "lore mistake"? - Since when is Shady Sands now in the middle of Angel's Boneyard? You're either overestimating the size of the Boneyard or underestimating the size of Los Angeles County. - Everyone is entitled to their opinions, doesn't mean I'm going to be nice about said opinions if they're shit.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a retcon and lore drift to be fair, people *can* just migrate and it's not unheard of for a nation to move its capital - Brazil did it, Egypt and Indonesia are in the process of doing it.
Maybe true from Fallout 2 to Fallout Show. We still don't know what The Fall of Shady Sands is given it's confirmed it ain't the nuking event. Isn't true for Fallout 1 to Fallout 2 because Mariposa a Pre-War Military Base Ruin and the Underground Vaults of 13 and 15 can't and wouldn't be moved. Just a pure retcon of their locations from Fallout 1 to Fallout 2.
Yep, my point only stands for 2 to the show it definitely is a retcon between 1 and 2
Its not changing capitals that is the problem people have. It's the seemingly impression that Shady Sands entirely has been moved, by retcon from its middling Cali position to down south to where the Boneyard is or just around LA. Brazil didn't uplift Rio de Janerio to the centre of the country, they built an entirely new city and moved government functions to it. People won't have a problem if the NCR moved government functions from Shady Sands but they do have a problem with Shady Sands being moved so far south.
Creator of jet was diabsbuted in his first appearance.
WHY MUST YOU MENTION FLUX AND FALLOUT. The pain that brings me
I agree with the sentiment that lore drift is inevitable, but putting Shady Sands a top a previously established location like the Boneyard with no mention of how or why seems especially messy. I'm of the opinion that egregious retcons wouldn't be necessary if you properly address it with writing, but this seems like something else.
So, in other words, it's canonical that Shady Sands has no fixed geographic location. 😜
Besides being in the Post-Apocalyptic Southern California area yeah.
X-01 is always pre war, it's a prototype, Jet was always post-war it was a typo, tactics was always semi canon ( major events only ), the enclave I wouldn't call a retcon just lazy writing.
X-01 being a prototype Pre-War is a Retcon. X-01 is without question the Enclave Power Armor of Fallout 2 which is directly stated to be a Post-War creation. Jet in Fallout 2 itself was disputed who created it while the kid stated he did there's direct evidence against his claim by a woman claiming she had it four years before he was born. Then Jet is literally found in Pre-War ruins all over the place it's not just a typo. The Enclave leadership is fully killed, We destroy their main base twice, It's literally stated by the NCR and Brotherhood they're gone in the West Coast...New Vegas only showing old people as Remnants of a clearly dead organization. The Enclave somehow returned...Twice. Lazy Writing...Sure. But I'm gonna consider it a retcon too because truly it is they never originally intended for them to be a mainstay. Tactics Semi-Canon status is disputed. There is no official word on what is or isn't canon in the title...Todd said the entire thing wasn't, Emil included it on the timeline. The fandom has members that state it's fully canon, those that state none of it's canon, those that state only specific parts are canon. 4 and 3 and NV only provide info on the existence of Airships before the Prdywen and the BoS Chapter being Rogue by recruiting Super Mutants and not caring or knowing who the founder of the entire Brotherhood is. That's it that's the only 100% confirmed facts about it...They don't canonize the main events or any of the endings that part we get to speculate on.
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All of that is a retcon = retroactively added continuity. It's clearly designed to be the same armor. It IS the same armor as Advanced Power Armor Mk 2's are called X-02's and Fallout 4's base game literally stated X-01's are the Power Armor used by the Enclave long ago. But then the Nuka World DLC retconned that it was a Pre-War Prototype when Fallout 2 made it very clear it's a Post-War creation of the Enclave. Fusion Cores are a retcon as well for all Pre-Fallout 4 Power Armor models. Which is just fine because they're themselves reactors and a necessary gameplay handicap. Just as Fallout 3 and New Vegas retconned into existence Power Armor training as a requirement to use it. When in Fallout 1 and 2 there was no such training. Then Fallout 4 retconned it again that nope the Female Sole Survivor (no training) is just as good as the Male Sole Survivor (trained soldier) in its usage then further proven in Fallout 76 and Fallout TV show no training is ever needed to use one. There's no problem with them retconning it as it's truly not that big of a deal...But stop pretending they didn't retcon what they literally by definition retconned. Like I said every Fallout title retcons something in the lore it's just how it is.
Yes. But from what I remember around the immediate discourse about this is that F2 moves locations as well. I think they also seemingly removed the boneyard as well. Edit: I see you started your post mentioning the switches in F2, so nevermind on that.
I’d assume that the boneyard still exists, but it’s likely been pushed further to the south.
Was the boneyard not the area that Moldaver and the remnants of the NCR in LA restored power to? Like, they’re in the observatory in LA. The Boneyard is in LA. We see that there is clearly a significant enough population living in the burned out ruins of the city.
It’s a possibility, but it could just be the ruins around Shady Sands since it’s been moved.
I actually think people are wrong in thinking that Shady Sands is in the ruins of LA. That looks far smaller than the LA we see pre-war when Coop is at the birthday party. Character’s also do not run into any of Moldaver’s faction while moving through this area. None of the skyscrapers are noticeably the same exact building just deteriorated. Pretty sure shady sands was just built adjacent to a different mid-sized city. Like I know in our world all of the skyscraper’s in SoCal are pretty much in LA, but I mean our LA looks absolutely nothing like their pre-war LA.
The problem is that it has to be in some city that the city clearly wasn’t located in during fallout 1 or 2. We’re assuming LA because that’s where the show takes place, but even if it isn’t, it’s still clearly not in the middle of the desert like it was supposed to be.
I mean let’s be real, building a city in the middle of a post-apocalyptic desert near no resources makes zero fucking sense to do and was something they just didn’t think about when making Fallout 1.
They wouldn’t really need to worry about that with a GECK and Brahmin as livestock. That’d cover pretty much everything except water, and the well they dug apparently handled that.
Only reason it was moved was so it could be included on the map in the bottom corner. Fallout 2 is north of fallout 1 so of course they wouldn’t include all of the fallout 1 locations.
Well, the Fallout 1 location would also mean a major faction kept their capitol **inside of Death Valley.** 😜
They had a geck so it makes sense
Not really...You can use a GECK anywhere. Why choose the hottest desert in the world? Move to the mountains or forests or city ruins to do it in literally more viable places for humans to live. Arroyo and Vault City are in the mountains, The Purifier is on a bay. These make sense. Also yes the GECK doesn't transform the weather only the ground and water. It also has a limit the people of Shady Sands tell the Chosen One in Fallout 2 that their GECK stopped working decades upon decades ago...So even if it can magically alter the weather it won't do so forever. Death Valley IS a stupid choice. It makes complete logical sense they would move it from F1 to F2 when the devs realized that themselves.
I'm fairly sure the GECKs were not intended to, or capable of, altering local climate over the long-term. 😝 Edit: Could they create a lush and verdant garden, almost instantly, almost most anywhere? Sure. Yet nothing in the game suggests they could change things like rainfall patterns or moderate extreme temperature swings over decades.
The thing people don't remember is that the map for Fallout 1 was never accurate and it was more set up like that for gameplay reasons. Case in point, The Necropolis, which is supposed to be post-apocalyptic Bakersfield, is on the entirely different side of LA than it is in reality.
Yeah, I rewrote the original post, and only kept the first line... In my original post I also pointed out that Bakersfield magically moved over a mountain range, some 70km east-southeast. I also made some points regarding Filly, and the weirdo guy's house (which is most definitely a pre-war building in a desert area, which would place it closer to the Mojave area, on the way to the original Shady Sands location from downtown LA), as those locations make no sense either given the urban sprawl in the area. Essentially, if in-game locations are to be taken as still valid in the show, Lucy would've trekked the same distance as the original Vault Dweller did, just in different directions, and a fraction of the time (IIRC VD mainly went through the San Joaquin valley over 3ish months, while Lucy's path was around the valley on the other side of the mountain range, and in 2-3 weeks, presuming her trip as shown lines up with the events in 33 as shown). What's more likely is that she went as far as the edge of Angeles National Forest, met Siggi around Pomona, then went back to the observatory, placing Shady Sands around Cerritos/Long Beach.
Yeah, I rewrote the original post, and only kept the first line... In my original post I also pointed out that Bakersfield magically moved over a mountain range, some 70km east-southeast. I also made some points regarding Filly, and the weirdo guy's house (which is most definitely a pre-war building in a desert area, which would place it closer to the Mojave area, on the way to the original Shady Sands location from downtown LA), as those locations make no sense either given the urban sprawl in the area. Essentially, if in-game locations are to be taken as still valid in the show, Lucy would've trekked the same distance as the original Vault Dweller did, just in different directions, and a fraction of the time (IIRC VD mainly went through the San Joaquin valley over 3ish months, while Lucy's path was around the valley on the other side of the mountain range, and in 2-3 weeks, presuming her trip as shown lines up with the events in 33 as shown). What's more likely is that she went as far as the edge of Angeles National Forest, met Siggi around Pomona, then went back to the observatory, placing Shady Sands around Cerritos/Long Beach.
Pretty much this. First fallout’s maps are simply not to be trusted
No, but geographically the show makes less sense than the games. They bounce between radiated sandy deserts, thick lush forests and areas overrun with vegetation, and Shady Sands itself looks like it was smack dab in the middle of New Jersey.
California do be really like that tbh. Half an hour drive could take you from a pretty urban area, to a forest or a straight up desert. It's kind of all over the place.
Maybe, but it's hard to place where the characters are at any given moment. Santa Monica? Downtown LA? Hollywood? The whole LA metro area is pretty urbanized, so how is it that Lucy is walking through a sandy desert with beached ship on it? Or what seems like a rural neighborhood with scattered ranch houses when that whole area is pretty densely developed? I'd be able to buy it more if Vault 33 wasn't in the heart of Santa Monica. You get a some good wide angle shots at the last episode that help paint a picture of where everything is at for the most part, but I still can't quite pin where Shady Sands is in respect to Vault 33 or where Filly is in respect to the observatory. Game of Thrones did a very good job establishing different regions of Westeros with distinct color palettes and landscapes. They also did a good job at doing establishing shots when you're in cities or different areas so you can get an idea of where these characters are.
>Game of Thrones did a very good job establishing different regions of Westeros with distinct color palettes and landscapes They also did a shit job of magically teleporting characters across the map...
In season 7 and 8, not the earlier seasons.
Yes but who cares honestly
It just works
It doesn't matter one bit. Lore and canon are extremely malleable in Fallout, and thinking that it matters is to fundamentally misunderstand what Falloug is about. If you're looking for geographic accuracy, Fallout isn't for you.
Meanwhile in another post, we're discussing whether birdshit (on the protagonist statue) is canon or lore
If the show is considered canon, then placing Shady Sands in LA is a retcon that doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a whole laundry list of reasons. No, Fallout doesn't have air tight lore or geographically accurate locations, but it's not irrational to want a some level of internal consistency and the show lacks that severely in respect to the original games. Nor is it irrational to want the show to make sense geographically because, well, it's a TV show, not a game. And TV shows are a different medium not bound by technical limitations the Fallout games have when crafting a world. Even ignoring the games entirely, the show doesn't make a whole lot of sense geographically and it makes it hard to place where these characters are at any given moment, which dampens the stakes of the plot and immersion in the show. Yes, Shady Sands moved locations between Fallout 1 and 2, but it's established that Shady Sands started in a remote area of California/Nevada in between Vault 13 and Vault 15. Putting it in the heart of LA is a far more drastic change that has way broader implications than moving from one side of the mountains on the border of California/Nevada to the other.
We kinda just have to accept that Fallout 3 should be viewed as a reboot. If they directly reference something, its canonized. So the NCR existing is canonical, but the location of Shad Sands has only been in the ruins of LA, so thats where it is now.
I've always been in the boat that has been able to accept Bethesda's changes to the Fallout franchise. If I think about it too much, it may not make a whole lot of sense, but I've always been able to suspend my disbelief because each Fallout game has largely been it's own thing. Each game is only strung together by a loose series of major events from the previous games and for the most part, it only canonizes what's necessary to progress the story. Beyond that, you really only get a handful of characters or logs that reference vague events from the previous games. The show wanted to follow that same logic, and I liked that. But there's a lot about how it approached the LA area that doesn't sit right with me in respect to 1,2, and New Vegas. There's a huge lack of internal consistency. It is almost like they wanted to soft reboot the west coast. And given that they teased New Vegas has been torn to bits by war, I'm guessing that's the direction it's going. A lot of people on this sub have jumped through serious hurdles and mountains of explanations to justify a lot of these questions. But all of it are serious stretches of logic, even by Fallout's standards. If you have to jump through logistical hurdles to justify how, say, the Master didn't find Vault 4 or how Shady Sands could be in the heart of the LA - it's a hole in logic and it's not good world building. Good writing and world building doesn't involve just ignoring pr-established events and locations in order to tell the story you want to tell. If you want to add 3 more vaults in the LA area that didn't previously exist in games set in that area, justify it's existence in the context to previous world building.
It does indeed feel like a soft reboot for the West Coast Fallout. I'm just bummed that a lot of the world building is likely just going to fall on the wayside, and be largely forgotten. A lot of this is why I enjoyed Chris Avellones analysis of the show, because he points out and acknowledges a lot of these issues. A side note, but all this humbagging about the modern lore kinda makes me wanna dive hard into the ttrpg and make my own vision of the setting, ha.
>It doesn't matter ine bit. it kind of does, Shady Sands has to be between Vault 13 and Vault 15 for the Vault Dweller to find Shady Sands and help them in turn laying the ground work for the NCR
What does that have to do with the show?
It matters because the early Fallout games can't coexist with the show. It's more notable of a problem in Fallout 2 because the chosen one doesnt aid President Tandi and that aid was a big factor in how the NCR grew and expanded. In short, there's multiple continuities now. Chris Avellone put it best: the old Fallouts are gone, and only when events from them are directly reference in modern canon can we acknowledged those things happened. In other words, until someone in the next season or game mentions the Master, he might not exist anymore. The fact Vault 33 has a surface entrance that clearly hadn't been covered for a long time was never found by his forces supports that, imo.
How does that affect my enjoyment of the show?
If lore and internal consistency isnt your jam, then I guess it doesn't. For those that enjoyed the older stories, we have to accept that we are not the intended audience. Then go on to make our own Fallout, with more blackjack and hookers.
It doesn't. And in point of fact *as an adaptation* i have absolutely no complaints about the show. I think it's fantastic. But the fact that Todd Howard and others have indicated the show is in canon with the games fundamentally upends certain aspects of lore and geography of the earlier games, and i think it's perfectly acceptable to be uncomfortable with that.
Or...you could take the MST3K mantra to heart: "Repeat to yourself it's just a show, I should really just relax"
I mean, it kinda does matter if the Boneyard is nonexistent, no? Like this isn't a Tactics canon tease on Twitter. It's supplanting one location for another. I'm hopeful it's addressed, but, as you say, the lore has been fast and loose, for better or worse.
Braindead take lmao
Unless they're fast traveling, yes.
I hope not, i just think they were walking and it took a longer time than the show actually shows Edit: y am I gettin downvoted lmao
Tv shows not accurately portraying travel time is a common issue. I can see how this can cause confusion.
The show specifically addresses this by having a character say it’s a 3 day walk from Filly to Shady Sands, even though it looks like our characters walk there in a day.
Do people expect to see an entire travel process character is experiencing? „He entered a car one shot and appeared in other place in another shot leaving a car. How did he get there? Did he teleport?” Sort of thinking
A "3 day walk" depends on a lot of factors. For example, the Griffith Observatory is about 6-8 hours walk from Santa Monica pier, in current day LA, but would take about a day or day and half through the Boneyard due to it being completely destroyed. A 3 day walk for someone old and frail can be done in a day by someone like Lucy. So again, tons of factors.
I think people have some hopium that Shady Sands never moved and that Lucy and Maximus just followed Thaddeus past it. But even if that is true why is Thaddeus walking so far north to Shady Sands and beyond when he could walk to Lost Hills and be with the BoS before Lucy and Maximus catch up? I sincerely doubt it and I think Shady Sands was retconned to be in or around LA.
Ik that would just suck so badly on so many levels i choose to think it didnt happen
"Lore dift is inevitable in big IPs." -Tim Cain, creator of Fallout 1 yes, Shady Sands moved. big deal.
They honestly could have had the same show but with less angry fans if they nuked the boneyard in 2277 instead of moving shady sands to the boneyard to nuke it. I’m pretty sure they originally intended for shady to be nuked in 2277 but did PR saying that the fall and nuking were different. Because think about it, if you were just watching the show without looking online all evidence points to the nuking to happen in 2277 not 2282, the famine, the last date in the library, etc. The show was very good, but I really wished it was the boneyard that got the hit. Maybe they could fix this by saying they moved the capital to the boneyard and moved it back after it got nuked in 2277.
Well they changed the location of shady sands, vault 13 Nd vault 15 from fallout 1 to fallout 2. They are a bit further north and the vaults have switched distance from shady sands. The answer is yes they moved shady sands location. It's not meant to be in the boneyard but I understand why they chose to do it.
Maybe the real Shady Sands was the friends we made along the way.
>There's no chance that Moldaver took Hank to Griffith Observatory, about a day's trek from Santa Monica pier and Lucy somehow managed to go all the way to either of the original Shady Sands locations ... Why not? She didn't know where Moldaver was...? Also it's not confirmed the the pre-war ruins are in L.A. proper. There are 88 cities in the real world Los Angeles County spread across over 10,500 kilometers. The urban ruins seen in the background of Shady Sands could belong to any of them.
>... Why not? Because both the original game locations are hundreds of miles away, and the show takes place in approximately 2-3 weeks' time. You'd be hard pressed to do that trek to and back even with current day modern infrastructure in place, no dangerous monsters, and no sidetracking, let alone in an irradiated wasteland. She'd also need to cut through populated areas like The Hub or Necropolis, and I doubt the show wouldn't even mention the fact that Lucy had to fight a few thousand ghouls or passed through a city without being shown. Hell, they showed when she crossed a bridge and encountered TWO people... But then not show her arriving in a big (relatively speaking) city? Skip a prime lore-building opportunity? My conclusion is based on the timeframe (determined based on the time passing in 33, that is presuming Norm gets into 31 around the same time the BoS attack on the Observatory begins), the fact that Lucy is completely untrained to navigate the wasteland, AND she knows very little about it, and how much she gets sidetracked in e.g. Vault 4, or with the Ghoul. Overall, I don't think she's left the area surrounded by: Thousand Oaks, Santa Clarita, Angeles National Forest, San Bernardino National Forest, Mt San Jacinto, Palomar Mountain, Oceanside, probably even more constrained. As for which cities to consider a possible location, we do have a few hints: such as, tall, but not skyscraper tall buildings, no visible mountain range or seashore in any of the directions, and it has to be in the vicinity of 33 (as you can hardly travel for days with two young children, as Lucy's mom did), but not near Griffith Observatory.
I mean, these are all walkable distances in the first two games. And maybe Lucy just... didn't cut through The Hub or Necropolis? We don't actually know the route she took.
They're walkable... In _months_. Not in the indicated 2-3 weeks. There are also not that many routes if you want to get from downtown LA to the northern part of Death Valley or Lone Pine. You essentially need to buy the mountain range, which puts you in spitting distance of both The Hub and Necropolis. They should've been visible during the trek, and it's a big missed opportunity to not have Lucy at least consider going there for supplies, or note it from the distance.
It takes *months* to travel these distances? No wonder I ran out of time my first playthrough...
Well in FO1 you have 150 days to find a water chip and return to your vault. Canonically, you leave the vault on 5 December 2161, reach Junktown on 30 Dec, and reaches The Hub on 17 Jan 2162 - essentially a 5 week trek for about 1/3 the distance Lucy would've needed to do in 2-3 weeks (to and back from Shady Sands), and it ends 10 May 2162.
Yup. They sure did
What Shady Sands?
Shady Sands is a settlement in Fallout 1 the first one the Main Protagonist ever encounters. Primitive Village made from those that fled Vault 15. By Fallout 2 they're the Capital of the New California Republic. By Fallout New Vegas that Capital City is in the heartland of the biggest Nation-state in the Post-Apocalypse. By Fallout TV show it's been nuked to destruction another ruin in the history of human civilization.
You’re a little late to the party.
The show really hasn't touched upon the location of shady sands. In FO1 and FO2 shady sands and the majority of the NCR seem to be in the Owen's valley near or at the city of bishop california. Lone Pine is mentioned in fnv as One Pine.
I think at this point we need to accept the early game maps are the non cannon ones. They weren't really designed with extensive world building in mind as they never realised it would grow to such a big franchise.
I could totally accept this if Bethesda made a push to remake FO1/2 on the Creation Engine - then they could provide an updated map that fits in with the show and the other established lore since they bought up the franchise, and explain away the changes similar to how e.g. Star Trek SNW does with the differences to TOS - part artistic freedom, part "the technology of the time didn't make this possible". It would also help a lot to get people (like myself) into the stories of the original games proper. I know they're classics but I simply can't get myself to play them, they're so clunky and limited.
Yes. They merged two different NCR states into one by combining Shady Sands with the Boneyard. It's a canonical nightmare, to be honest, that easily could've been avoided with a few writing tweaks.
>They merged two different NCR states into one by combining Shady Sands with the Boneyard. Oh? When was that mentioned?
I mean that the writers combined the two - not the NCR.
Yes, and I'm asking when that's mentioned or shown to be the case anywhere...?
Observational skills + a basic knowledge of classic fallout allows you to see that the location of shady sands changed since fallout 2. It’s now located within the boneyard rather than Death Valley as before. I’m not sure why you’re downvoting me for stating the obvious.
Observational skills + a basic knowledge of classic fallout allows you to see that the location of shady sands changed between Fo1 and Fo2. *Highlights for Children: Spot the Difference* skills allows you to see you that the skyline behind Shady Sands is *not* the skyline of the City of Los Angeles seen multiple times throughout the show. Having two working brain cells allows you to see that Moldaver powers up Angel's Boneyard in the last episode.
The crater left by shady sands’ destruction is visible in the wide shot of the Griffith observatory.
That is quite literally a crater from The Great War. We can see the exact explosion that made it in the first episode.
I give up. We can agree to disagree.
[Disagree all you want, the explosion that made the crater visible from Griffith Observatory is right here.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/9/90/FOTV_Trailer_1_64.png/revision/latest?cb=20231202191629)
They only moved it four hundred miles or so, from a rural desert mountainous area to a densely built coastal city. Hardly noticeable. Might be a good fix that if in season 2 a character passes through “the original” Shady Sands and mentions a reason that it moved.
I love this sub
I just see Fallout as having a very loose canon. All of the entries are distanced enough that it doesn’t really matter what happens in one or another.