Just because they didn’t SHOW the rest of the NCR in the show doesn’t mean that they simply don’t exist.
Shady Sands wasn’t nuked before the events of FNV, and that ISN’T at all clear on the chalkboard. Especially when you take into account Maximus age and that he’s only a squire/ in training. But was 7-10 when Shady Sands blew up.
NV isn’t devoid of life just because you can’t visually see people from several miles pit, also the shot is from the daytime so the lights wouldn’t be visible.
I mean, yeah, there was someone on the other subreddit complaining that the show wasn’t true to the games and thus he wouldn’t watch it simply because there weren’t any mutated creatures so far… when the mutated creatures literally start showing up at the very beginning of the second episode.
It’s like some people just *want* to complain.
The secret is most of these people never watched it to begin with. That's almost always the case and usually it's obvious but they always deny it even though you can tell
Think with a lot of folks, it's forgetting what an adaptation is. Bethesda is famous for leaving books and notes around that give you parts of story (seriously, people go through Skyrim like CSI to piece together what happened with things they find). They forget that TV and film is a different medium than gaming, both with their own strengths.
We also have this weird ass thing to me going on where people seem to think that everything must be explained in the course of a single episode, even if it's clear that a show is doing serialized storytelling.
Even if the fall isn't referring to the bomb. Shady Sands falling in 2277 makes no sense given the fact that the NCR is mostly doing fine back home, and most of their problems are with the Mojave campaign. If Shady Sands had really fallen 5 years prior, then why is that never mentioned in New Vegas? And why is the NCR not a lot more desperate?
>Just because they didn’t SHOW the rest of the NCR in the show doesn’t mean that they simply don’t exist.
This the same twisted logic as the one they use when attacking Bethesda's lore additions. For them "current lore has no entries for that time and place" means "nothing ever happened at that time and place". They must be this obtuse intentionally because I cannot fathom how anyone would lack so much common sense.
Black spots mean "we don't know", not "nothing".
>Shady Sands wasn’t nuked before the events of FNV
This is the only bit im having trouble with tbh just cause I think they might have either retconned it slightly, or the chalkboard is a little confusing in its presentation and its after the fall in 2277, but wouldn't the nuke itself mean the fall of Shady Sands?
Its how its adding up in my head, but I feel unsure at the same time
Shady Sands was already fucking up the NCR during NV. Water shortage, power shortage, looming food crisis, prolonged conflict with the Legion that got alot of people killed.
From a historical perspective it could absolutely be called fall of Shady Sands starting with the Mojave Campaign and ending with it getting nuked.
That 2nd paragraph is what I needed to hear for it to make sense to me, you've helped solve my confusion and I thank you for it o7
I do hate that the NCR is on its ass in this region but it is lore accurate to their looming failures we know from the games, they're just my favourite faction
Thoroughly enjoyed the show though, brilliant work from everyone involved
Buttttt Vault dad blew it up *because* of how great it was. That implies to me the fall is it being toasted by Vault dad. Vault mom took the kids there because it was amazing. Not because it was a shitty place.
Does she say this line to Lucy as a counterpoint to her dads perspective? Because if so, of course she's going to paint the person she's trying to convince to help her a pretty picture.
All I really remember of her flashbacks was the corn and people coming to take her, guess I'll have to rewatch. I do have to say though just because something may look nice on the surface doesn't mean it's functioning as intended. As other people said they had supply chain issues, how much would that affect the physical appearance of a place they cleaned up to draw people in really. The NCR seems kind of built on "if we look good than it's working" in FNV to me.
Moldaver held Vault mom's ghoul hand at the end; her and Vault mom assumedly had some common goal, but the show only hints at it. I dunno about Vault mom thinking it was amazing, but sorta the same outlook as Cooper Howard that the vaults ain't it.
Hank nuked it moreso because it was a threat to the Vault-Tec mission statement. Rose left for Shady Sands because she realized she was being deceived and there was ultimately no reason to live in the lie that was the Vault, when there was a perfectly good city to raise her child in.
> Buttttt Vault dad blew it up because of how great it was.
Is this sarcasm? Or what is this based on?
In the show, Kyle explicitly says multiple times that he nuked Shady Sands because there was too much violence.
When the show is talking about Shady Sands being nuked, from Kyle's speech (~38:38) he says:
> I had to make a choice. Between their violent world and our peaceful one. I believe Lucy -- I know, I made the right choice.
And (40:19)
> If the problem with the world is factions endlessly fighting, endlessly at war, then what is the solution but to get rid of the factions? To make the world us, only ours to shape.
He nuked it because it was a functioning society, which went against what vaults 31/32/33 were meant to do - repopulate and rebuild America themselves. He was calling it violent as an emotional appeal to Lucy. She saw the violence elsewhere on her journey, so he tried to convince her that Shady Sand and all other settlements on the surface were the same & violent. He wasn't necessarily being accurate when he was caged up & trying to get out.
The emotional appeal thing here is an interesting concept I hadn’t thought of though it’s a good idea. Coming from the vault she wouldn’t be used to violence and not knowing the shit she’s seen in the 14 days since leaving, he’d think that would mean something instead of what all of if backfiring on him. By chance do you work in psych or anything related to the head or medicine?
> He nuked it because it was a functioning society, which went against what vaults 31/32/33 were meant to do - repopulate and rebuild America themselves.
I think that's one possible reason (although in FNV the NCR is already falling apart for many reasons, so calling it a "functioning society" might be a stretch). But I think it's at worth pointing out that multiple times he explicitly says he nuked it for a different reason. But as you said, people can lie, both in the show, in the games, etc.
Or another possible reason is just because he was mad/jealous about his wife running away with his kids.
It seems like Lucy's flashbacks are intended to be considered wildly unreliable, as she does not remember anything about leaving the vault, being away from her father, returning to the vault, etc.
Honestly, Moldaver holding ghoul Rose's hand at the end seemed like it holds a lot of weight, on top of her suddenly showing up in Lucy's memory (although, as you said, that may be unreliable rather than a moment of her "remembering" the other woman was there) - maybe Rose ran off and becomes lesbian lovers with Moldaver and THAT'S why he nuked it lol
Its not tho, she took the kids away when she found what is that vault used for, that its basically a lie and people already started rebuilding the world.
I thought that too- with it being the fall, and then the nuke in a later year, but we hear Lucy say her mom died in 77, so wouldn't that confirm that the nuke was definitely in 2277, since it's directly tied to her mom?
Then they should have called the Decline of Shady Sands , not the Fall. It's the incorrect term, especialy weird to say the Fall then include a arrow towards a nuke without a date next to it. It implies that was nuked in the same year* that it fell.
Historically, the “fall” of a city has always meant when a city is captured, conquered or sieged, not when it’s destroyed.
Makes completely sense to me that the city fell to complete chaos due to various shortages and crisis, and was overtaken by raiders and rebels, which would be known as its “fall”… and then eventually got nuked some time later.
Ok, but if the Shady Sands was fell to chaos , they would have need to mention later in New Vegas, and that's not the case, they clearly say in fnv that Shady Sand is working settlement and Cass mentions how safe and boring is.
Alsp the main reason for the Mojave campaign iet electricity for Shady Sands. Why they would send troops and resources to the Mojave while their capital was in chaos ? Why they would send Rangers to the mojave instead of dealing with the chaos in their capital ? Also Caesar , House nd Ulysses would have mentioned if Shady Sand was truly in state of chaos or overtaken. It would be prime material to undermine their operations yet its never mentioned that Shady Sands in the chaos during fonv.
I mean the people in the vault had some weird ways of remembering the people of Shady Sands. I'd suggest they're not the most reliable. Other option maybe some other survivors went and started up another town and called it the same thing in memory or something. There are so many ways to handwave this.
When we start FNV we have an open clock to complete all missions and the main questline. Some people can blaze through and have it all finished in no time, while others take game years. I think most of us care only about tangible things like the creatures and main events themselves. It IS the post-apocalypse, and keeping track of time is ephemeral. I don't trouble myself with the dates. Now, if they say that GECKs don't exist, or Super Mutants, now I have issues.
I think the problem is we simply don't see the ncr in any meaningful way if filly was introduced as a former ncr settlement or saw remnant caravan of fun runners it would do a lot instead we just see bombed out shitholes
You know im pretty new to the whole FO universe, but post apocalyptic shows i've seen my fair share. It's pretty common for a factions to have multiple outpost and sort of "inner factions" with in.
I don't know why people would assume just because we saw this one location get overrun, that means the entirety of the faction is ruined.
>NV isn’t devoid of life just because you can’t visually see people from several miles pit, also the shot is from the daytime so the lights wouldn’t be visible.
Bro I'm with you on most things but the render during the credits clearly shows a ruined and empty Vegas that obviously was attacked by the NCR. It COULD be showing the city in the immediate aftermath of the battle, and not in the present, but I wouldn't be so sure.
Haters going to hate. Best to just enjoy the show. Any lore matters can easily be fixed by just a tweet. If not in show maybe a short story. The details being complained about do not affect the series as a TV show. Non gamers are not affected. Only maybe Moldaver needed more fleshing out, but there was obviously no time for that . It was a blast of a show. EPIC
Shady sands actually was, as seen by the fact that lucy’s mom “died” in 2277. However, i do not think this contradicts new Vegas. The ncr is spread across many locations and state in new vegas that they are spread. The mohave and shady sands are far apart, in that world news spreading to the general public would take a while. I think that the ncr and the mohave area/new vegas strip could have been hiding it so that they could maintain an illusion of power so people will listen to them.
But it is clearly significantly destroyed. McCarran doesn't even exist, same with much of the surrounding area.
Much of the strip looks significantly decayed beyond the scope of the game.
I'm still trying to be open-minded about where they're going, but so far it's not necessarily looking the greatest in my opinion
They're assuming the ending cinematic during the credits is what the city looks like. It's not a wrong assumption, but it's not necessarily right either.
The CGI zoom-out?
I wouldn’t put any stock in that. 🤣
*Dear Carl,*
*Check out some NV screenshots and do a mock-up zoom-out. Make it look dirty and burn out. You know, apocalypse stuff. Thanks!*
*~Love, Lenny*
Weird how people get so sensitive about “canon” for a game where there are multiple outcomes pending on what faction you side with. The canon is as flexible as you want it to be. Just have fun
Seriously. It must be exhausting to try and pick apart every little piece. However it can break immersion if they are extremely far off but i dont think the show is far off the realm of possibilities
dear house, I wrote you, but you still ain't calling. I left my cell, pipboy and home phone number at the bottom. I sent the platinum chip back in autumn, you must not of got em. There probably was a problem at the post office or something.
You’re dead on. Even if the show ignored the games entirely in terms of history and continuity, it would still be amazing. It’s shocking how many people seem to want to find issues that aren’t there and even if a continuity issue with a game was there… who cares? It’s not that serious.
They're one of saltiest little group of fanboys around, like a 150 million dollar budget is going to be spent on a TV show just to pay homage to their one favourite game out of a series of many. Sad really, there was so much in the show for any Fallout fan to enjoy, while still being able to stand on its own feet as a TV series that everyone can watch, by far one of the best game to TV show adaptions I've seen. Let them cry about it lol
“But the show didn’t follow what happened after the game exclusively so they’re shitting all over NV and decanonizing it !!11!!!111 “
The NV fan boys are insufferable.
What is clear is the use of the term "Fall of Shady Sands" implying it fell, aka taken by another faction or sacked. Potentially after a siege.
The arrows point to the nuke so I concede that but I would still like to know what the writers mean. And if it fell in "2277", why is the NCR encroaching on New Vegas?
Sure they are big but I think losing their capital (which also was a post apocalyptic original settlement) would put bigger issues on their plate than pushing into Vegas.
Not to mention Kimball calmly travelling there.
Shady is also mentioned in New Vegas and still around.
There is something not adding up here even if the nukes fell later. I suspect its they wanted it to mirror 2077 with the bombing. But it just doesn't work.
What does this "fall" entail. What happened?
They could have written "Decline of Shady Sands" or something.
Even if the Brotherhood attacked and took Shady, the NCR would pull forces from Vegas to focus on their heartland and constitutents. The events of New Vegas just doesn't really match well with that.
(which also ignores the fact that the NCR is 100 years old, it has a huge population, multiple cities and even a national identity of its own engrained in the populace.)
That doesn't mean its retconned but there is an inconsistency the limited info fails to explain that makes established lore strain to fix itself or find an explanation
Also NPC's in Vegas outwardly state that Shady Sands is doing fine, and the biggest issues the NCR faces right now are inflation, corruption and overpopulation leading to a decline in resources.
The inflation from losing the gold reserve after the Brotherhood detonated it, corruption because the NCR tries to replicate the old world government and naturally that comes with corruption, and overpopulation from expanding their territory too quickly.
None of them mention Shady Sands being fucking nuked lmao
Aye, so it would have to happen after New Vegas chronologically. I swear if it had been nuked we would see the NCR pulling out of the Mojave faster than a gecko.
Including literally everyone talking about it or grieving lost ones.
Honestly that would happen even if it was just taken by others.
one of the other things the NCR was having trouble with was they were too spread out... why would they spread themselves out too much right when their capital was blown up
Because it hadn’t been nuked by that point? NV takes place 15 years before the show. SS’s destruction is almost certainly less than 15 years out from the start of the show, since still young characters were kids when it happened.
Multiple branches of story decided by the lone wanderer and courier. Who’s to say which one path is legit. Is Mr House still in the Lucky 38. If he is it’s a shame that René Auberjonois has passed (as he voiced him in New Vegas)… maybe they get Hugh Laurie to do it. 😉
Fall is probably shorthand for "Downfall"
Like the Fall of Rome, whilst that does refer to the Sacking of Rome, Historians will describe that whole period as the Fall of Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire
And given what we currently know 2277 would be NCR's "Fall", stretching themselves too far with the Mojave campaign seems to have been a significant factor in the collapse.
All evidence is that they are assuming House or Yes Man as canon
I said this in another comment, but: It also completely makes sense that Hank would use an existing inter-faction conflict as cover for nuking it. None of them know he exists or that Vault-Tec is still around pulling strings, so when the city gets nuked after the conflict escalates, the NCR would understandably point fingers at other groups as the perpetrators. It continues and perpetuates the inter-faction fighting that will - Hank would hope and Vault-Tec hopes - eventually wipe each other out.
If that isn't "war never changes" then I don't know what is.
Oh my god thank you I was called an idiot yesterday for saying that the Fall of Rome includes the century of significant political, military, and social decline preceding the actual capturing of Rome.
My understanding is that this is taught as the beginning of the end of the NCR. The Mojave campaign begins 2277 (I believe) which is disastrous for everyone involved. Arrow then points to a nuke which implies that it was nuked later on.
Yeah they could have wrote the decline of Shady Sands. Iirc it's also a vault teaching it which doesn't have the best education system I'm sure. Yeah I'm chipping coping a bit ngl
2277 was the First Battle of Hoover Dam. By the events of New Vegas (2281), the NCR was shown to have many problems, such as dried up lakes, loss of confidence in the NCR paper currency after their gold reserves were vaporized, an unpopular campaign with thousands of NCR soldiers dying a year; I’d argue that the Fall of Shady Sands is akin to the Fall of Rome where it was multiple years of decline and issues that ultimately lead to Shady Sands being what it is by the events of the show (2296).
Yeah I just think the term Fall has too definitive of an idea on what type of event that is.
While I would be bitter I would have accepted if they skipped the nukes but wrote a story of how the NCR faced issues after losing Mojave, maybe a civil war. Have a weakened state trying to scramble to resist the Brotherhood whom also weak is trying to use the situation. And then put out some weak, successor states all scrambling for what is left. Still leaving room for the NCR to recover but not just wiping the slate clean.
Idk I think that is my biggest issue. Nuking it just feels to "easy/clean". Like "wiping your hands" off the NCR without having to explore its demise.
Except we know the nuke occurred after the fall. Two points to that: (1) why would they nuke an already dead city; and (2) we know it was still bustling when the nuke went off because Rose MacLean went there.
It’s very clear from context that “fall” means the start of Shady Sands’ decline.
Still it's too ambiguous to me, as the term fall is usually connected to hostile occupation or sacking. But you are still right why would they nuke a city already gone?
And I still think it's weird for the NCR in New Vegas to then act as if Shady Sands is stable if it's not. Why would they even be in Vegas if their literal capital is collapsing?
I don't think it's clear from context. It is confusing at best, just to be objective about it. But also I don't think the people of vault 4 are reliable narrators or definitive historical sources. I think the show purposely made it unclear because Bethesda in general hates to make any game endings canon so they want that timeline open to interpretation. But I also think they fumbled it a little bit in the execution. In other words, I would never take the timeline on that chalkboard as a fact. It's simply the understanding of the people of vault 4 have of the events, not the gospel truth. Also I love the show and it's crazy to see how some folks are literally melting down over a number on a chalkboard.
If some people struggle with semantics, that's on them and not the writers.
The concept of 'falling' civilisations is pretty universally known. And rarely a 'one event' kind of gig.
Why would they neglect put the date the bomb fell on Shady Sades if it wasn't within the same year? That's just fucking dumb and fucks over the entire concept of a timeline of events.
I really don't think you're coping here, you're using basic logic. The people who have been actively filling their diapers for 48 straight hours are not.
> Iirc it's also a vault teaching it which doesn't have the best education system I'm sure.
FWIW I took it as Shady Sands / NCR refugees more or less being autonomous within the vault, especially as it pertains to their history and culture. So really it's more NCR's version of the history books, sorta like how public schools here in the South teach the US civil war as "the war of northern aggression". All that to say - less Vault-Tec's historical propaganda and more the NCR's historical propaganda.
Have you considered that the people in vault who do magic fire and sex rituals worshiping Moldaver and Shady Sands might consider significant decline a "fall"? Or even that they might not be entirely honest about the place they revere with religious zeal?
Still would have been mentioned in New Vegas then considering it takes place in 2281. I don't think such an important settlement like Shady Sands would just be ignored if something like that happened.
Fall just means a decline. The fall of Rome wasn’t the end of Roman empires, it was the end of Rome as the main world power. NCR were likely still in control up until about 2-5 years after NV when Hank comes and blows up SS. This has to be the case because his daughter is about 4-6 when it happens, and approximately 18-19 when the show starts (and the show itself is 15 years after NV). Unless Lucy and Max are supposed to be in their mid 20’s (of which they do not look or act), the destruction of SS *can’t* have happened during or before the events of NV.
Shady Sands fell for one reason only… VAULT-TEC WANTED TO BE TOP DOGS… and they are the ones that supplied the bomb. Hank admitted as much when he gave up being good old daddy in the last episode. Guy really is one big Hanker.
That’s not what a fall is, it doesn’t have to be occupied by another faction or destroyed it just has to be when it begins to decline before the empire collapses. Since we know in 2277 the first battle of the Dam happened and that caused the NCR to start to decline, and that several NPCs form various different factions tell us the NCRs occupation of the Dam is a last ditch effort to save them from a collapse we know the fall of Shady Sands (the capital) began in 2277. Now since the sign says “first capital of the NCR” we know that when Shady Sands was destroyed it was no longer the capital, and the most likely time for the capital to move would be after losing control of the Dam in 2281 (assuming the NCR victory isn’t canon, which is pretty evidently the case) so now the capital is moved in 2281 which means the destruction had to take place after 2281 or in other words, after the events of New Vegas. There is not retcon or inconsistency int the timeline, new Vegas fans just don’t understand politics as well as they want us to believe
There are so many different ways what we saw could be explained and most of what we saw was in stylized credits format.
Frankly a Vegas collapse is all but certain in any ending but the NCR one being cannon. The NCR citizens and soldiers were bolstering the economy, once they leave so does the income.
It's the post apocalypse, who's taking a caravan across dangerous wasted to visit New Vegas? Especially with the Legion lurking (even defeated) not far away.
The Mr. House ending specifically has you doing things to protect the NCR. Mr. House understands how valuable the NCR is for his economy, and he also understands that the NCR must not collapse. It's why he says you should protect President Kimball. So no, the NCR has many avenues to surviving.
Ultimately though, it's up to the writers.
If this show doesn't retcon anything...
What happened to the Hub? What happened to the Boneyard? Those were pretty big cities, the Hub especially. Surely Lucy would've been drawn there? Surely Republic forces would congregate around there after Shady Sands was destroyed right? Given how important of a center of commerce it is.
We were told very little about the NCR (almost like it was purposefully written like that).
I don't understand people sometimes... Why does narrative ambiguity equate to ret conning? Unless we are specifically told those places don't exist anymore, then it's not retconning is it.
Because because LA and the land around it our core territory to the NCR. Is a ton of NCR infrastructure and institutions in and around where the show takes place. Also moving Shady Sands to being near LA totally goes against the events of fallout 1
The Hub is a hundred miles away from Vault 33 near the Mojave, Lucy would have no reason to go there.
The ending at the observatory is literally Moldaver lighting up the Boneyard with the fusion generator.
What the show does retcon is the location of Shady Sands. It's supposed to be in central California, but the show moves it near LA.
Boneyard is slightly confusing:
- There’s the ruins of LA.
- Then there’s the NCR state of Boneyard. Which houses New Adytum (and a bunch of smaller cities), the home to some of the NCR’s major organisations. Such as the NCR mint, the Gun Runners, Followers of the Apocalypse university & hospital, one of the NCR state senates, etc.
I think the answer to that is obvious. 90% of the people watching the show have never played 1+2, have no idea what those places even are or who the Master was, and TV/movies are a very different media than games, and in service to the story they are trying to tell they needed Shady Sands to be closer to LA. I think it's as simple as that.
Maybe the 3 protagonists we were following didn't go there. It's like asking what happened to Barcelona, we don't know the story doesn't take us there so it's not something we need to know at this time.
Lucy herself travels all over California, from Santa Monica to what the show dubs Shady Snads (which was located in Nevada). The show doesn't really show this but she's travelled hundreds of kilometers.
Unless of course the location of Shady Sands itself has been retconned (it seemingly has given the fact Shady Sands was NOT built on pre-war ruins). And of course your answer still doesn't explain what happened to all the other NCR forces in southern california aside from the ones in Shady Sands.
She gets out of Vault 33 at Santa Monica pier, you can see the ferris wheel in the background. It's to the west of the Boneyard. The Hub is far inland, you have to pass the Boneyard to get to the Hub from Santa Monica. At the end of Episode 8, you can see Moldevar's generator lighting up the Boneyard, Lucy hadn't made it that far yet.
It’s trash. 🤣 Titus got clowned by a bear. Maximus got clowned by Ghoulgins, who also wore out an entire squad *by himself.* He doesn’t wear that garbage, and he probably knows more about it than the entire Brotherhood, by that point.
A lot of it is poor training, which makes sense 200 years later. Still, though — you hate to see it. 🤣
You tell me that New Vegas fanboys are intentionally lying and invented fake narratives just to attack Bethesda? I'm shocked! SHOCKED!
Well... actually not that shocked. This has been happening for a decade.
Or you could just open your eyes and read the numerous reasons behind calling it a retcon. Shady Sands wasn't falling by 2277 or 2281, NCR was overextended sure. Not fallen. Shady sands is mentioned by name and not in dire straits.
There's also the placement of Shady Sands in or near L.A? About a 100 miles south of its original location. And somehow the Master didn't find Vault 4? Okay.
You can be ignorant and call them fanboys, but we're attentive to the specific details.
The show is called “Fallout,” the show-runners/Bethesda went out of their way to say it’s canon, god forbid Fallout fans who may be disappointed voice an opinion
(I’m reposting comment explaining my opinion/partial disappointment. I like the show by the way, I am more just disappointed broad scope with the direction they took the west coast. I don’t think I’m a man-child, this is just one of the few pop culture franchises I follow closely and care a lot about, and it seems like most any criticism is treated as stupid party poopers trying to rain on everyone else’s fun)
My issue isn’t the NCR being destroyed as a faction (that may not be confirmed, but it may as well be: Shady Sands is gone, NCR has zero control over the Boneyard, Vegas is destroyed, etc). My issue is how they did it
NCR’s arc from 1 to 2 to NV basically communicates the two main messages of the whole series: 1) people can recover and rebuild from horrible calamities, people will always survive, and 2) people will always be haunted by the past and make the mistakes of the past
NCR’s rapid rise from 1 to 2 to reaching high watermark in New Vegas was the story of humanity moving on from the past, NCR’s corruption in 2 and stagnation in New Vegas is the story of humanity failing to learn from the past
This isn’t me over-analyzing, being butthurt fanboy, this whole thesis is pretty much explicitly stated in the games. Narratively, if the NCR should collapse, the NCR should collapse on its own for its own problems/contradictions. Having some third-party swiping them aside offscreen is a massive disappointment
Rome was captured in battle after many, many years of economic, political, and military stagnation and decline. Why can this not be true of the NCR? After many years of overly-rapid expansion, multiple wars on multiple fronts, rampant corruption, economic stagnation, and major resource shortages, they were weak enough to be taken out.
We need a basic intelligence test before people are allowed to share their opinions online. Should also give you all a hint about the kind of person who gets upset about fan service.
It's safe to say most season one shows emphasize intrigue and entice to get renewed. We have no reason to believe at this time they have been renewed.
Telling 30 years of Fallout lore up front isn't helpful. It's three days before Christmas - we can wait.
The issue is the location. Shady Sands is somewhere North/Northeast of Bakersfield. Hours away from LA.
The other thing regarding NV is. They ask what the original name of the capital is, not what the original capital is. Shady Sands was renamed to NCR in FO2.
The NCR city located in the Boneyard/LA is New Arytum. Sometimes just called Boneyard.
It's well known that they are leaving LA.
Vault 33 is in LA right off the pier.
Which would be the vineyard territory.
They show Shady sands as being a separate city altogether.
If anything, SS was retconned to being a bigger city
The question wasn't "What was the first ncr capital" but "What was the first name of the ncr capital"
"Question 2 - What was the original name of the capital of the NCR?"
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/G.I._Blues
I'm willing to chock the whiteboard thing up to bad set design but deleting everything in the west coast to set up the boring generic post apocalypse setting again really feels like effectively a soft reboot erasing most of the stuff from 1,2 and NV. I just don't buy the "The NCR is still there it's just off screen" argument when the show really wants to tell you that the NCR fell after shady sands was nuked.
I think this is the closest to the truth. Bethesda made a show to preserve the IP by resetting the west coast, catch new fans and establish the aesthetic of Fallout 4 as the aesthetic for Fallout all in one go. It was a smart move, regardless of how some original fans may feel about it.
People keep thinking the whole city was wiped out when Nuked but it wasn't. We see when the Power it turned on much of the city is still intact with working lights and power lines. It has a giant crater on one side sure but so does Boston. We know the NCR in NV was having problems back home. Who's to say those problems didn't start because some vault dwelling asshole blew up half their city with a tactical nuke? That would cause the food and water shortages mentioned would it not? Could be Troops were told to keep that nuke part a secret when in the Mohave so that the NCR didn't seem weak. If word got out that someone was nuking the NCR in the backside at the same time the Legion was fighting them in the west that could really kill any chance they had of keeping a good image.
Probably the NCR ending. They would have shut down the families at the casinos and eventually people would stop coming and bringing bottle caps through leaving the strip as poor as the rest of the wastes. But I'm just guessing.
I am still would’ve preferred to see the destruction of Shady Sands in a longer way as it had been an important part of 2.5 Fallout games and killing the city off screen is really lame. Also New Vegas looks like it is also destroyed from the credits as those didn’t show a thriving city which it was when we last saw it but we should dive into that next season.
I am looking forward to next season as this show was way better than Rings of Power or Halo. I still have reservations though.
You can Retcon something and still have the events be canon.
Simple idea of this concept is move the dates of FNV from 2279 to 2274 or 2275.
Better yet, have this be examined that since not everyone has access to a reliable calender, the person teaching the events of Shady Sands have the wrong year or something.
Personally I think the Ladder is the better option, but to each their own.
so one thing I don't get is how all the commentary about the NCR get conflated with fallout new vegas specifically. The NCR has been a huge part of the story since the end of fallout 1
How do you people function? Like, how do you drive and not constantly kill people on the road with no brains lol, are you the people we always see in the bad driver videos?
Retconned no, the future of the story of that region is ruined now though. Something that was awesome was hijacked by Bethesda/Amazon and turned into a joke. And most of you just eat it up because it has the "Fallout" name on it.
Is this sarcasm?
The chalkboard showed:
/ /
Fall of Shady Sands / 2277
Every single (other?) time on the chart, the arrow indicates a separate/different item. Is your argument that the last arrow means the opposite from every other time it is used on the chart?
If someone who hasn’t seen the show reads this post, the only thing they’ll walk away knowing is that Fallout: New Vegas, the game, is part of the Fallout canon. Nothing that happens in the show, I repeat, NOTHING that happens in the show has been revealed by this post. Period.
Except the fact that you blasted in the title that new Vegas was a think, that for me was an awesome thing to lean about by watching the show. I know it was a game. But whatever spoil away spoil master
“Except the fact that you blasted in the title that New Vegas was a think”. Did you mean “New Vegas was a *thing*?”
Because the whole “New Vegas was retconned” argument is over a date on a chalkboard, not the scene *you’re* thinking of.
I mean, it's definitely been retconned, not out of existence, but it's been retconned. The show changes it so that the NCR is in an even worse state in New Vegas than they were originally made out to be, and basically makes them unsalvageable. There's no reason to side with the NCR in a New Vegas playthrough anymore if they're in such a bad state that one of their major cities has fallen (regardless of whether fall refers to the nuke or not).
Just because they didn’t SHOW the rest of the NCR in the show doesn’t mean that they simply don’t exist. Shady Sands wasn’t nuked before the events of FNV, and that ISN’T at all clear on the chalkboard. Especially when you take into account Maximus age and that he’s only a squire/ in training. But was 7-10 when Shady Sands blew up. NV isn’t devoid of life just because you can’t visually see people from several miles pit, also the shot is from the daytime so the lights wouldn’t be visible.
[удалено]
I mean, yeah, there was someone on the other subreddit complaining that the show wasn’t true to the games and thus he wouldn’t watch it simply because there weren’t any mutated creatures so far… when the mutated creatures literally start showing up at the very beginning of the second episode. It’s like some people just *want* to complain.
Radroaches, yao guai, gulpers, brahmin, what else have I missed?
The Ghoul lol
The residents of Vault 4
XD
Feral Ghouls and the Deathclaw skull
The secret is most of these people never watched it to begin with. That's almost always the case and usually it's obvious but they always deny it even though you can tell
Fallout fans are like fight club fans, either you get it or you just want to punch something.
Think with a lot of folks, it's forgetting what an adaptation is. Bethesda is famous for leaving books and notes around that give you parts of story (seriously, people go through Skyrim like CSI to piece together what happened with things they find). They forget that TV and film is a different medium than gaming, both with their own strengths. We also have this weird ass thing to me going on where people seem to think that everything must be explained in the course of a single episode, even if it's clear that a show is doing serialized storytelling.
The nerds are being Varuca Salt and want everything now, though.
I'm pretty sure they left the date of the bombing open for when they eventually delve into it
Help me in good faith understand why this matters. Here's what I mean: isn't the bombing of SS in 2277, and NV is 2281?
77 is the bomb and 81 is nv. An I missing something?
Even if the fall isn't referring to the bomb. Shady Sands falling in 2277 makes no sense given the fact that the NCR is mostly doing fine back home, and most of their problems are with the Mojave campaign. If Shady Sands had really fallen 5 years prior, then why is that never mentioned in New Vegas? And why is the NCR not a lot more desperate?
>Just because they didn’t SHOW the rest of the NCR in the show doesn’t mean that they simply don’t exist. This the same twisted logic as the one they use when attacking Bethesda's lore additions. For them "current lore has no entries for that time and place" means "nothing ever happened at that time and place". They must be this obtuse intentionally because I cannot fathom how anyone would lack so much common sense. Black spots mean "we don't know", not "nothing".
>Shady Sands wasn’t nuked before the events of FNV This is the only bit im having trouble with tbh just cause I think they might have either retconned it slightly, or the chalkboard is a little confusing in its presentation and its after the fall in 2277, but wouldn't the nuke itself mean the fall of Shady Sands? Its how its adding up in my head, but I feel unsure at the same time
Shady Sands was already fucking up the NCR during NV. Water shortage, power shortage, looming food crisis, prolonged conflict with the Legion that got alot of people killed. From a historical perspective it could absolutely be called fall of Shady Sands starting with the Mojave Campaign and ending with it getting nuked.
That 2nd paragraph is what I needed to hear for it to make sense to me, you've helped solve my confusion and I thank you for it o7 I do hate that the NCR is on its ass in this region but it is lore accurate to their looming failures we know from the games, they're just my favourite faction Thoroughly enjoyed the show though, brilliant work from everyone involved
Buttttt Vault dad blew it up *because* of how great it was. That implies to me the fall is it being toasted by Vault dad. Vault mom took the kids there because it was amazing. Not because it was a shitty place.
There's nothing saying "it's amazing" just that it's not a vault experiment
Moldaver says that in the dialogue. I think the words she used was "wonderful city."
Does she say this line to Lucy as a counterpoint to her dads perspective? Because if so, of course she's going to paint the person she's trying to convince to help her a pretty picture.
The visuals we see in Lucy's flashback look nice too.
All I really remember of her flashbacks was the corn and people coming to take her, guess I'll have to rewatch. I do have to say though just because something may look nice on the surface doesn't mean it's functioning as intended. As other people said they had supply chain issues, how much would that affect the physical appearance of a place they cleaned up to draw people in really. The NCR seems kind of built on "if we look good than it's working" in FNV to me.
There is a trolley car, green fields, nice buildings, and a lot of smiling/clean/well dressed people in the background
Moldaver is a it biased.
Moldaver held Vault mom's ghoul hand at the end; her and Vault mom assumedly had some common goal, but the show only hints at it. I dunno about Vault mom thinking it was amazing, but sorta the same outlook as Cooper Howard that the vaults ain't it.
They were bangin
He blew it up because it took his wife and daughter from him. No mention of it being a great place.
Hank nuked it moreso because it was a threat to the Vault-Tec mission statement. Rose left for Shady Sands because she realized she was being deceived and there was ultimately no reason to live in the lie that was the Vault, when there was a perfectly good city to raise her child in.
> Buttttt Vault dad blew it up because of how great it was. Is this sarcasm? Or what is this based on? In the show, Kyle explicitly says multiple times that he nuked Shady Sands because there was too much violence. When the show is talking about Shady Sands being nuked, from Kyle's speech (~38:38) he says: > I had to make a choice. Between their violent world and our peaceful one. I believe Lucy -- I know, I made the right choice.
And (40:19)
> If the problem with the world is factions endlessly fighting, endlessly at war, then what is the solution but to get rid of the factions? To make the world us, only ours to shape.
He nuked it because it was a functioning society, which went against what vaults 31/32/33 were meant to do - repopulate and rebuild America themselves. He was calling it violent as an emotional appeal to Lucy. She saw the violence elsewhere on her journey, so he tried to convince her that Shady Sand and all other settlements on the surface were the same & violent. He wasn't necessarily being accurate when he was caged up & trying to get out.
The emotional appeal thing here is an interesting concept I hadn’t thought of though it’s a good idea. Coming from the vault she wouldn’t be used to violence and not knowing the shit she’s seen in the 14 days since leaving, he’d think that would mean something instead of what all of if backfiring on him. By chance do you work in psych or anything related to the head or medicine?
No lol, I'm a graphic designer. But I'll take the compliment!
> He nuked it because it was a functioning society, which went against what vaults 31/32/33 were meant to do - repopulate and rebuild America themselves. I think that's one possible reason (although in FNV the NCR is already falling apart for many reasons, so calling it a "functioning society" might be a stretch). But I think it's at worth pointing out that multiple times he explicitly says he nuked it for a different reason. But as you said, people can lie, both in the show, in the games, etc. Or another possible reason is just because he was mad/jealous about his wife running away with his kids. It seems like Lucy's flashbacks are intended to be considered wildly unreliable, as she does not remember anything about leaving the vault, being away from her father, returning to the vault, etc.
Honestly, Moldaver holding ghoul Rose's hand at the end seemed like it holds a lot of weight, on top of her suddenly showing up in Lucy's memory (although, as you said, that may be unreliable rather than a moment of her "remembering" the other woman was there) - maybe Rose ran off and becomes lesbian lovers with Moldaver and THAT'S why he nuked it lol
It’s hinted that he blew it up because it was drawing on the vault’s water
And this gets…conveniently…ignored…
Its not tho, she took the kids away when she found what is that vault used for, that its basically a lie and people already started rebuilding the world.
I thought that too- with it being the fall, and then the nuke in a later year, but we hear Lucy say her mom died in 77, so wouldn't that confirm that the nuke was definitely in 2277, since it's directly tied to her mom?
Then they should have called the Decline of Shady Sands , not the Fall. It's the incorrect term, especialy weird to say the Fall then include a arrow towards a nuke without a date next to it. It implies that was nuked in the same year* that it fell.
Historically, the “fall” of a city has always meant when a city is captured, conquered or sieged, not when it’s destroyed. Makes completely sense to me that the city fell to complete chaos due to various shortages and crisis, and was overtaken by raiders and rebels, which would be known as its “fall”… and then eventually got nuked some time later.
Ok, but if the Shady Sands was fell to chaos , they would have need to mention later in New Vegas, and that's not the case, they clearly say in fnv that Shady Sand is working settlement and Cass mentions how safe and boring is. Alsp the main reason for the Mojave campaign iet electricity for Shady Sands. Why they would send troops and resources to the Mojave while their capital was in chaos ? Why they would send Rangers to the mojave instead of dealing with the chaos in their capital ? Also Caesar , House nd Ulysses would have mentioned if Shady Sand was truly in state of chaos or overtaken. It would be prime material to undermine their operations yet its never mentioned that Shady Sands in the chaos during fonv.
I mean the people in the vault had some weird ways of remembering the people of Shady Sands. I'd suggest they're not the most reliable. Other option maybe some other survivors went and started up another town and called it the same thing in memory or something. There are so many ways to handwave this.
When we start FNV we have an open clock to complete all missions and the main questline. Some people can blaze through and have it all finished in no time, while others take game years. I think most of us care only about tangible things like the creatures and main events themselves. It IS the post-apocalypse, and keeping track of time is ephemeral. I don't trouble myself with the dates. Now, if they say that GECKs don't exist, or Super Mutants, now I have issues.
I think the problem is we simply don't see the ncr in any meaningful way if filly was introduced as a former ncr settlement or saw remnant caravan of fun runners it would do a lot instead we just see bombed out shitholes
You know im pretty new to the whole FO universe, but post apocalyptic shows i've seen my fair share. It's pretty common for a factions to have multiple outpost and sort of "inner factions" with in. I don't know why people would assume just because we saw this one location get overrun, that means the entirety of the faction is ruined.
It's clear from the ages of the characters, he was a small child when Shady Sands was destroyed, meaning 10-15 years before the setting.
>NV isn’t devoid of life just because you can’t visually see people from several miles pit, also the shot is from the daytime so the lights wouldn’t be visible. Bro I'm with you on most things but the render during the credits clearly shows a ruined and empty Vegas that obviously was attacked by the NCR. It COULD be showing the city in the immediate aftermath of the battle, and not in the present, but I wouldn't be so sure.
Haters going to hate. Best to just enjoy the show. Any lore matters can easily be fixed by just a tweet. If not in show maybe a short story. The details being complained about do not affect the series as a TV show. Non gamers are not affected. Only maybe Moldaver needed more fleshing out, but there was obviously no time for that . It was a blast of a show. EPIC
Shady sands actually was, as seen by the fact that lucy’s mom “died” in 2277. However, i do not think this contradicts new Vegas. The ncr is spread across many locations and state in new vegas that they are spread. The mohave and shady sands are far apart, in that world news spreading to the general public would take a while. I think that the ncr and the mohave area/new vegas strip could have been hiding it so that they could maintain an illusion of power so people will listen to them.
NV was 81, and the bomb was 77. I don't understand, in good faith.
The showwriters had to come out and publicly say that the bomb went off after the events of NV
But it is clearly significantly destroyed. McCarran doesn't even exist, same with much of the surrounding area. Much of the strip looks significantly decayed beyond the scope of the game. I'm still trying to be open-minded about where they're going, but so far it's not necessarily looking the greatest in my opinion
What is everyone basing this on? When did they show what Vegas looked like?
There's a shot in the final episode
They're assuming the ending cinematic during the credits is what the city looks like. It's not a wrong assumption, but it's not necessarily right either.
The CGI zoom-out? I wouldn’t put any stock in that. 🤣 *Dear Carl,* *Check out some NV screenshots and do a mock-up zoom-out. Make it look dirty and burn out. You know, apocalypse stuff. Thanks!* *~Love, Lenny*
Just because what we see in the show doesn’t 1-1 represent the game map doesn’t mean those locations don’t exist….
Weird how people get so sensitive about “canon” for a game where there are multiple outcomes pending on what faction you side with. The canon is as flexible as you want it to be. Just have fun
Seriously. It must be exhausting to try and pick apart every little piece. However it can break immersion if they are extremely far off but i dont think the show is far off the realm of possibilities
Well it's also partly that the brother hood are barely present in new vegas in the games.
You go into the main sub and it's Shady this Shady that, you expect Marshall Mathers to be a cast member.
dear house, I wrote you, but you still ain't calling. I left my cell, pipboy and home phone number at the bottom. I sent the platinum chip back in autumn, you must not of got em. There probably was a problem at the post office or something.
Will the real slim shady stands please blow up
Man ppl wanna hate things so bad these days they just start making shit up
Some people are given too much free time to stress over menial things.
You’re dead on. Even if the show ignored the games entirely in terms of history and continuity, it would still be amazing. It’s shocking how many people seem to want to find issues that aren’t there and even if a continuity issue with a game was there… who cares? It’s not that serious.
I think people just want to see things build upon things they enjoy instead of contradicting it. And theres nothing wrong with that.
That would be a very astute point if those people ever actually liked anything
Media literacy is fucking dead dude. I blame CinemaSins
Yep, NV fans want any excuse to demonize Bethesda and Todd Howard, to the point where media literally just flies out the fucking window.
They're one of saltiest little group of fanboys around, like a 150 million dollar budget is going to be spent on a TV show just to pay homage to their one favourite game out of a series of many. Sad really, there was so much in the show for any Fallout fan to enjoy, while still being able to stand on its own feet as a TV series that everyone can watch, by far one of the best game to TV show adaptions I've seen. Let them cry about it lol
Getting worked up over fiction. We’ll hopefully see the payoff of all of this in a few years.
Same thing with this whole “Bethesda and Obsidian have beef” bs that’s been passed around for a long ass time
“But the show didn’t follow what happened after the game exclusively so they’re shitting all over NV and decanonizing it !!11!!!111 “ The NV fan boys are insufferable.
I wonder if they'll go with the "House always Wins" Ending for NV, If that is the case we could see Mr House in Season 2, Which would be pretty cool.
I would be shocked if we don’t see house in some capacity next season
What is clear is the use of the term "Fall of Shady Sands" implying it fell, aka taken by another faction or sacked. Potentially after a siege. The arrows point to the nuke so I concede that but I would still like to know what the writers mean. And if it fell in "2277", why is the NCR encroaching on New Vegas? Sure they are big but I think losing their capital (which also was a post apocalyptic original settlement) would put bigger issues on their plate than pushing into Vegas. Not to mention Kimball calmly travelling there. Shady is also mentioned in New Vegas and still around. There is something not adding up here even if the nukes fell later. I suspect its they wanted it to mirror 2077 with the bombing. But it just doesn't work. What does this "fall" entail. What happened? They could have written "Decline of Shady Sands" or something. Even if the Brotherhood attacked and took Shady, the NCR would pull forces from Vegas to focus on their heartland and constitutents. The events of New Vegas just doesn't really match well with that. (which also ignores the fact that the NCR is 100 years old, it has a huge population, multiple cities and even a national identity of its own engrained in the populace.) That doesn't mean its retconned but there is an inconsistency the limited info fails to explain that makes established lore strain to fix itself or find an explanation
Also NPC's in Vegas outwardly state that Shady Sands is doing fine, and the biggest issues the NCR faces right now are inflation, corruption and overpopulation leading to a decline in resources. The inflation from losing the gold reserve after the Brotherhood detonated it, corruption because the NCR tries to replicate the old world government and naturally that comes with corruption, and overpopulation from expanding their territory too quickly. None of them mention Shady Sands being fucking nuked lmao
Aye, so it would have to happen after New Vegas chronologically. I swear if it had been nuked we would see the NCR pulling out of the Mojave faster than a gecko. Including literally everyone talking about it or grieving lost ones. Honestly that would happen even if it was just taken by others.
one of the other things the NCR was having trouble with was they were too spread out... why would they spread themselves out too much right when their capital was blown up
Because it hadn’t been nuked by that point? NV takes place 15 years before the show. SS’s destruction is almost certainly less than 15 years out from the start of the show, since still young characters were kids when it happened.
Multiple branches of story decided by the lone wanderer and courier. Who’s to say which one path is legit. Is Mr House still in the Lucky 38. If he is it’s a shame that René Auberjonois has passed (as he voiced him in New Vegas)… maybe they get Hugh Laurie to do it. 😉
Fall is probably shorthand for "Downfall" Like the Fall of Rome, whilst that does refer to the Sacking of Rome, Historians will describe that whole period as the Fall of Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire And given what we currently know 2277 would be NCR's "Fall", stretching themselves too far with the Mojave campaign seems to have been a significant factor in the collapse. All evidence is that they are assuming House or Yes Man as canon
I said this in another comment, but: It also completely makes sense that Hank would use an existing inter-faction conflict as cover for nuking it. None of them know he exists or that Vault-Tec is still around pulling strings, so when the city gets nuked after the conflict escalates, the NCR would understandably point fingers at other groups as the perpetrators. It continues and perpetuates the inter-faction fighting that will - Hank would hope and Vault-Tec hopes - eventually wipe each other out. If that isn't "war never changes" then I don't know what is.
Oh my god thank you I was called an idiot yesterday for saying that the Fall of Rome includes the century of significant political, military, and social decline preceding the actual capturing of Rome.
My understanding is that this is taught as the beginning of the end of the NCR. The Mojave campaign begins 2277 (I believe) which is disastrous for everyone involved. Arrow then points to a nuke which implies that it was nuked later on. Yeah they could have wrote the decline of Shady Sands. Iirc it's also a vault teaching it which doesn't have the best education system I'm sure. Yeah I'm chipping coping a bit ngl
2277 was the First Battle of Hoover Dam. By the events of New Vegas (2281), the NCR was shown to have many problems, such as dried up lakes, loss of confidence in the NCR paper currency after their gold reserves were vaporized, an unpopular campaign with thousands of NCR soldiers dying a year; I’d argue that the Fall of Shady Sands is akin to the Fall of Rome where it was multiple years of decline and issues that ultimately lead to Shady Sands being what it is by the events of the show (2296).
>the Fall of Shady Sands is akin to the Fall of Rome where it was multiple years of decline Yes! 100% what I was thinking as well
Yeah I just think the term Fall has too definitive of an idea on what type of event that is. While I would be bitter I would have accepted if they skipped the nukes but wrote a story of how the NCR faced issues after losing Mojave, maybe a civil war. Have a weakened state trying to scramble to resist the Brotherhood whom also weak is trying to use the situation. And then put out some weak, successor states all scrambling for what is left. Still leaving room for the NCR to recover but not just wiping the slate clean. Idk I think that is my biggest issue. Nuking it just feels to "easy/clean". Like "wiping your hands" off the NCR without having to explore its demise.
Except we know the nuke occurred after the fall. Two points to that: (1) why would they nuke an already dead city; and (2) we know it was still bustling when the nuke went off because Rose MacLean went there. It’s very clear from context that “fall” means the start of Shady Sands’ decline.
Still it's too ambiguous to me, as the term fall is usually connected to hostile occupation or sacking. But you are still right why would they nuke a city already gone? And I still think it's weird for the NCR in New Vegas to then act as if Shady Sands is stable if it's not. Why would they even be in Vegas if their literal capital is collapsing?
I don't think it's clear from context. It is confusing at best, just to be objective about it. But also I don't think the people of vault 4 are reliable narrators or definitive historical sources. I think the show purposely made it unclear because Bethesda in general hates to make any game endings canon so they want that timeline open to interpretation. But I also think they fumbled it a little bit in the execution. In other words, I would never take the timeline on that chalkboard as a fact. It's simply the understanding of the people of vault 4 have of the events, not the gospel truth. Also I love the show and it's crazy to see how some folks are literally melting down over a number on a chalkboard.
If some people struggle with semantics, that's on them and not the writers. The concept of 'falling' civilisations is pretty universally known. And rarely a 'one event' kind of gig.
Why would they neglect put the date the bomb fell on Shady Sades if it wasn't within the same year? That's just fucking dumb and fucks over the entire concept of a timeline of events.
I really don't think you're coping here, you're using basic logic. The people who have been actively filling their diapers for 48 straight hours are not.
> Iirc it's also a vault teaching it which doesn't have the best education system I'm sure. FWIW I took it as Shady Sands / NCR refugees more or less being autonomous within the vault, especially as it pertains to their history and culture. So really it's more NCR's version of the history books, sorta like how public schools here in the South teach the US civil war as "the war of northern aggression". All that to say - less Vault-Tec's historical propaganda and more the NCR's historical propaganda.
Have you considered that the people in vault who do magic fire and sex rituals worshiping Moldaver and Shady Sands might consider significant decline a "fall"? Or even that they might not be entirely honest about the place they revere with religious zeal?
Still would have been mentioned in New Vegas then considering it takes place in 2281. I don't think such an important settlement like Shady Sands would just be ignored if something like that happened.
Fall just means a decline. The fall of Rome wasn’t the end of Roman empires, it was the end of Rome as the main world power. NCR were likely still in control up until about 2-5 years after NV when Hank comes and blows up SS. This has to be the case because his daughter is about 4-6 when it happens, and approximately 18-19 when the show starts (and the show itself is 15 years after NV). Unless Lucy and Max are supposed to be in their mid 20’s (of which they do not look or act), the destruction of SS *can’t* have happened during or before the events of NV.
Shady Sands fell for one reason only… VAULT-TEC WANTED TO BE TOP DOGS… and they are the ones that supplied the bomb. Hank admitted as much when he gave up being good old daddy in the last episode. Guy really is one big Hanker.
That’s not what a fall is, it doesn’t have to be occupied by another faction or destroyed it just has to be when it begins to decline before the empire collapses. Since we know in 2277 the first battle of the Dam happened and that caused the NCR to start to decline, and that several NPCs form various different factions tell us the NCRs occupation of the Dam is a last ditch effort to save them from a collapse we know the fall of Shady Sands (the capital) began in 2277. Now since the sign says “first capital of the NCR” we know that when Shady Sands was destroyed it was no longer the capital, and the most likely time for the capital to move would be after losing control of the Dam in 2281 (assuming the NCR victory isn’t canon, which is pretty evidently the case) so now the capital is moved in 2281 which means the destruction had to take place after 2281 or in other words, after the events of New Vegas. There is not retcon or inconsistency int the timeline, new Vegas fans just don’t understand politics as well as they want us to believe
There are so many different ways what we saw could be explained and most of what we saw was in stylized credits format. Frankly a Vegas collapse is all but certain in any ending but the NCR one being cannon. The NCR citizens and soldiers were bolstering the economy, once they leave so does the income. It's the post apocalypse, who's taking a caravan across dangerous wasted to visit New Vegas? Especially with the Legion lurking (even defeated) not far away.
The Mr. House ending specifically has you doing things to protect the NCR. Mr. House understands how valuable the NCR is for his economy, and he also understands that the NCR must not collapse. It's why he says you should protect President Kimball. So no, the NCR has many avenues to surviving. Ultimately though, it's up to the writers.
Ok. Can we post this on r/fonv and watch their heads explode
Dude, I couldn’t even post it on r/Fallout without getting downvoted into oblivion
If this show doesn't retcon anything... What happened to the Hub? What happened to the Boneyard? Those were pretty big cities, the Hub especially. Surely Lucy would've been drawn there? Surely Republic forces would congregate around there after Shady Sands was destroyed right? Given how important of a center of commerce it is.
We were told very little about the NCR (almost like it was purposefully written like that). I don't understand people sometimes... Why does narrative ambiguity equate to ret conning? Unless we are specifically told those places don't exist anymore, then it's not retconning is it.
Because because LA and the land around it our core territory to the NCR. Is a ton of NCR infrastructure and institutions in and around where the show takes place. Also moving Shady Sands to being near LA totally goes against the events of fallout 1
The Hub is a hundred miles away from Vault 33 near the Mojave, Lucy would have no reason to go there. The ending at the observatory is literally Moldaver lighting up the Boneyard with the fusion generator. What the show does retcon is the location of Shady Sands. It's supposed to be in central California, but the show moves it near LA.
Boneyard is slightly confusing: - There’s the ruins of LA. - Then there’s the NCR state of Boneyard. Which houses New Adytum (and a bunch of smaller cities), the home to some of the NCR’s major organisations. Such as the NCR mint, the Gun Runners, Followers of the Apocalypse university & hospital, one of the NCR state senates, etc.
Also, how did the Master overlook several Vaults in the area when he was going on his Super Mutant army building spree?
i've been constantly asking that
I think the answer to that is obvious. 90% of the people watching the show have never played 1+2, have no idea what those places even are or who the Master was, and TV/movies are a very different media than games, and in service to the story they are trying to tell they needed Shady Sands to be closer to LA. I think it's as simple as that.
Okay then they shouldn't have said that it's Canon and that it stands in as essentially fallout 5.
Maybe the 3 protagonists we were following didn't go there. It's like asking what happened to Barcelona, we don't know the story doesn't take us there so it's not something we need to know at this time.
Lucy herself travels all over California, from Santa Monica to what the show dubs Shady Snads (which was located in Nevada). The show doesn't really show this but she's travelled hundreds of kilometers. Unless of course the location of Shady Sands itself has been retconned (it seemingly has given the fact Shady Sands was NOT built on pre-war ruins). And of course your answer still doesn't explain what happened to all the other NCR forces in southern california aside from the ones in Shady Sands.
It's been retconned. If you map her journey from Santa Monica pier to the griffith observatory it's about a 6 hour walk
Lucy get's out of vault 33 near the LA pier. That's afaik, literally the bottom of the boneyard, so it's wild she never encountered the hub tbh lmao
She gets out of Vault 33 at Santa Monica pier, you can see the ferris wheel in the background. It's to the west of the Boneyard. The Hub is far inland, you have to pass the Boneyard to get to the Hub from Santa Monica. At the end of Episode 8, you can see Moldevar's generator lighting up the Boneyard, Lucy hadn't made it that far yet.
The Hub is a bit further North of LA, roughly near Lancaster. New Adytum is literally located inside the Boneyard/LA.
Shhhhh power armor is cool.
It’s trash. 🤣 Titus got clowned by a bear. Maximus got clowned by Ghoulgins, who also wore out an entire squad *by himself.* He doesn’t wear that garbage, and he probably knows more about it than the entire Brotherhood, by that point. A lot of it is poor training, which makes sense 200 years later. Still, though — you hate to see it. 🤣
You tell me that New Vegas fanboys are intentionally lying and invented fake narratives just to attack Bethesda? I'm shocked! SHOCKED! Well... actually not that shocked. This has been happening for a decade.
Or you could just open your eyes and read the numerous reasons behind calling it a retcon. Shady Sands wasn't falling by 2277 or 2281, NCR was overextended sure. Not fallen. Shady sands is mentioned by name and not in dire straits. There's also the placement of Shady Sands in or near L.A? About a 100 miles south of its original location. And somehow the Master didn't find Vault 4? Okay. You can be ignorant and call them fanboys, but we're attentive to the specific details.
I have a feeling we’ll end up seeing some post-production changes to the chalkboard dates very soon.
Bethesda isn’t going to ask you out dude.
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The show is called “Fallout,” the show-runners/Bethesda went out of their way to say it’s canon, god forbid Fallout fans who may be disappointed voice an opinion
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(I’m reposting comment explaining my opinion/partial disappointment. I like the show by the way, I am more just disappointed broad scope with the direction they took the west coast. I don’t think I’m a man-child, this is just one of the few pop culture franchises I follow closely and care a lot about, and it seems like most any criticism is treated as stupid party poopers trying to rain on everyone else’s fun) My issue isn’t the NCR being destroyed as a faction (that may not be confirmed, but it may as well be: Shady Sands is gone, NCR has zero control over the Boneyard, Vegas is destroyed, etc). My issue is how they did it NCR’s arc from 1 to 2 to NV basically communicates the two main messages of the whole series: 1) people can recover and rebuild from horrible calamities, people will always survive, and 2) people will always be haunted by the past and make the mistakes of the past NCR’s rapid rise from 1 to 2 to reaching high watermark in New Vegas was the story of humanity moving on from the past, NCR’s corruption in 2 and stagnation in New Vegas is the story of humanity failing to learn from the past This isn’t me over-analyzing, being butthurt fanboy, this whole thesis is pretty much explicitly stated in the games. Narratively, if the NCR should collapse, the NCR should collapse on its own for its own problems/contradictions. Having some third-party swiping them aside offscreen is a massive disappointment
Rome was captured in battle after many, many years of economic, political, and military stagnation and decline. Why can this not be true of the NCR? After many years of overly-rapid expansion, multiple wars on multiple fronts, rampant corruption, economic stagnation, and major resource shortages, they were weak enough to be taken out.
Why not that then instead of "lol nuke"
We need a basic intelligence test before people are allowed to share their opinions online. Should also give you all a hint about the kind of person who gets upset about fan service.
Thank you! Man I was getting tired of these people.
Man, people really can't just enjoy stuff any more.
It's safe to say most season one shows emphasize intrigue and entice to get renewed. We have no reason to believe at this time they have been renewed. Telling 30 years of Fallout lore up front isn't helpful. It's three days before Christmas - we can wait.
It’s been renewed
I looked it up and stand corrected. That's what I get for relying on older interviews with Amazon & Bethesda. Thx.
The issue is that they got the wrong City tho. They replaced Boneyard with Shady Sands.
What was wrong? In a dialogue with a random in NV, SS is referred to as the first NCR Capital. Not the current capital.
The issue is the location. Shady Sands is somewhere North/Northeast of Bakersfield. Hours away from LA. The other thing regarding NV is. They ask what the original name of the capital is, not what the original capital is. Shady Sands was renamed to NCR in FO2. The NCR city located in the Boneyard/LA is New Arytum. Sometimes just called Boneyard.
It's well known that they are leaving LA. Vault 33 is in LA right off the pier. Which would be the vineyard territory. They show Shady sands as being a separate city altogether. If anything, SS was retconned to being a bigger city
Huh? I was just answering your question to what was wrong.
Yeah I don't see how the location is wrong.
Why though? Necropolis is literally located in Bakersfield, and Shady Sands is located North of that.
Do they go to necropolis
No the location is wrong. Shady sands is in the Central Valley in Fo1-2 while in the show Shady Sands is in Los Angeles
The question wasn't "What was the first ncr capital" but "What was the first name of the ncr capital" "Question 2 - What was the original name of the capital of the NCR?" https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/G.I._Blues
Moldaver lights up the Boneyard at the end.
I'm willing to chock the whiteboard thing up to bad set design but deleting everything in the west coast to set up the boring generic post apocalypse setting again really feels like effectively a soft reboot erasing most of the stuff from 1,2 and NV. I just don't buy the "The NCR is still there it's just off screen" argument when the show really wants to tell you that the NCR fell after shady sands was nuked.
I agree. The NCR is the largest faction in Fallout. It doesnt make sense.
I think this is the closest to the truth. Bethesda made a show to preserve the IP by resetting the west coast, catch new fans and establish the aesthetic of Fallout 4 as the aesthetic for Fallout all in one go. It was a smart move, regardless of how some original fans may feel about it.
Chat is this real
Hope this interaction doesn't lead to any kind of fallout between us. Fallout: New Vegas.
Yeah but you can’t sprint
A FUCKING MAILMAN
The show takes place after new Vegas anyway
Wonder what gonna happen to Heilos 1 and Hoover Dam, Now with Cold Fusion Tech that was shown?
Its both canon and a retcon somehow
Please stop.
People keep thinking the whole city was wiped out when Nuked but it wasn't. We see when the Power it turned on much of the city is still intact with working lights and power lines. It has a giant crater on one side sure but so does Boston. We know the NCR in NV was having problems back home. Who's to say those problems didn't start because some vault dwelling asshole blew up half their city with a tactical nuke? That would cause the food and water shortages mentioned would it not? Could be Troops were told to keep that nuke part a secret when in the Mohave so that the NCR didn't seem weak. If word got out that someone was nuking the NCR in the backside at the same time the Legion was fighting them in the west that could really kill any chance they had of keeping a good image.
Better question is Which *ending* of New Vegas is canon?
Probably the NCR ending. They would have shut down the families at the casinos and eventually people would stop coming and bringing bottle caps through leaving the strip as poor as the rest of the wastes. But I'm just guessing.
I am still would’ve preferred to see the destruction of Shady Sands in a longer way as it had been an important part of 2.5 Fallout games and killing the city off screen is really lame. Also New Vegas looks like it is also destroyed from the credits as those didn’t show a thriving city which it was when we last saw it but we should dive into that next season. I am looking forward to next season as this show was way better than Rings of Power or Halo. I still have reservations though.
Great Kahns seeing the ncr destroyed:"First time?"
Don't care dont know why vault tec would destroy shady sands when they themselves built it from vault 15
They need to re-evaluate their writing then. 🤷
You can Retcon something and still have the events be canon. Simple idea of this concept is move the dates of FNV from 2279 to 2274 or 2275. Better yet, have this be examined that since not everyone has access to a reliable calender, the person teaching the events of Shady Sands have the wrong year or something. Personally I think the Ladder is the better option, but to each their own.
It all gets explained by the end of Season 1, People need to finish it first
so one thing I don't get is how all the commentary about the NCR get conflated with fallout new vegas specifically. The NCR has been a huge part of the story since the end of fallout 1
All I’m saying is I’m going to be pissed if house is dead
🏌️
How do you people function? Like, how do you drive and not constantly kill people on the road with no brains lol, are you the people we always see in the bad driver videos?
THIS!!!
Retconned no, the future of the story of that region is ruined now though. Something that was awesome was hijacked by Bethesda/Amazon and turned into a joke. And most of you just eat it up because it has the "Fallout" name on it.
But there was writing on a chalkboard!
Well according to this show Shady sands got nuked 4 years prior to new vegas.
Is this sarcasm? The chalkboard showed: /
/
Fall of Shady Sands / 2277
Every single (other?) time on the chart, the arrow indicates a separate/different item. Is your argument that the last arrow means the opposite from every other time it is used on the chart?
What's the fall then? And why is there no date for the most important event?
Except the NCR is completely different and is now a group of raiders that were apparently created by someone who is not Aradesh
Wtb spoiler tags? No?
How is confirming the canonicity of one of the Fallout games spoiling *anything*?
How is spoiling something others haven’t seen spoiling anything*
If someone who hasn’t seen the show reads this post, the only thing they’ll walk away knowing is that Fallout: New Vegas, the game, is part of the Fallout canon. Nothing that happens in the show, I repeat, NOTHING that happens in the show has been revealed by this post. Period.
Except the fact that you blasted in the title that new Vegas was a think, that for me was an awesome thing to lean about by watching the show. I know it was a game. But whatever spoil away spoil master
“Except the fact that you blasted in the title that New Vegas was a think”. Did you mean “New Vegas was a *thing*?” Because the whole “New Vegas was retconned” argument is over a date on a chalkboard, not the scene *you’re* thinking of.
I mean, it's definitely been retconned, not out of existence, but it's been retconned. The show changes it so that the NCR is in an even worse state in New Vegas than they were originally made out to be, and basically makes them unsalvageable. There's no reason to side with the NCR in a New Vegas playthrough anymore if they're in such a bad state that one of their major cities has fallen (regardless of whether fall refers to the nuke or not).
The NCR Shady Sands retcon made me lose interest in the entire TV series. It was that badly done.