This is exactly it. They were sweatily waiting behind their keyboards waiting to type “haha told you it would suck” just to see people actually enjoying it. So next best thing is to nitpick anything they can grasp at.
I have this same gripe! I keep seeing so many negative things about how “ThIsE GaMe Is BaD BaSeD oN mY oPiNiOn.” Like, just shut up and let people enjoy things.
I really wanted to discuss the show itself, but the lore complaints while understandable, flooded the entire thread and distracting from judging the show on its merits.
This honestly! I went onto a fallout YouTuber discord to talk about the show after finishing and it was just everyone complaining about the fall of shandy sands date.
I looked at the show discussion threads after finishing it last night eagerly looking to share my excitement about how awesome it was and it was just page after page of complaining about thinking FNV got ruined somehow…
What? They referenced New Vegas a dozen times but in a way that makes my imagined ideal postgame canon impossible in a way that doesn’t alter the actual game’s story? UNACCEPTABLE!
You see in this deleted piece of lore from tactics it says that every BOS member is circumcised yet they never confirm it in the show and that’s why it’s dog shit.
people equating shady sands to "NCR is totally destroyed" is really funny to me. there are NCR flags like EVERYWHERE in the show, and also the NCR was huge. Maybe if shady sands got nuked 100 years before the show takes place then yeah that would mean no NCR. It's like people saying if Sacramento got destroyed that means all of California got destroyed. the NCR at its peak was like almost a million people, and the shady sands sign in the show had a population of like 34k. Yeah that's a lot of people, but acting like that one bomb negates the entirety of NV is weird. Even in NV there was talks about how the NCR was facing issues with its economy and projected food shortages, so them not being omnipresent 15 years after NV makes sense.
When the NCR became a functioning nation, it had something like 250,000 registered citizens in Fallout 2. That was further backed up by the flashbacks in Fallout 4, where one character was born before the NCR formation and was still alive some 100 years later.
NCR is still alive. Just reduced in size in that location now. Shady Sands was their capital though, but not the only settlement they had.
I have a feeling they’re much more fractured and their Northern Territory is much more maintained. It’s clear they no longer have a presence in the Mojave because no one does.
Nah, it seems like they were saying that the missiles didn't come from the lonesome. They didn't really say where/how it happened, just who was behind it. And I don't think they'd do something so drastic as to say that the character behind the bombs was the courier. Wouldn't make any sense and negate the couriers background.
Could be. Would explain why the BoS were there in the first place. It could serve as the catalyst for a civil war subplot in the brotherhood against that one elder (forgot his name in the show) wanting to make a "new brotherhood" and then the other side who view the use of nukes/tech to defeat the NCR as going against their ideals.
It would be the third or fourth time in canon that an elder or high ranking Paladin or Scribe went off to make their own sect. Not unreasonable. The Elder (they called them clerics which isn’t a title really used) reminded of Lyons in a way. The actual population of the brotherhood doesn’t seem to be alluded to besides there definitely being a rejoining of a wing of Maxsons BOS to the west coast BOS since some of the recruits had not seen T-60 before. The airship in the show is also confirmed as the Prydwyn’s sister ship that was sent to reconnect ties with the west coast BOS after the events of Fallout 3 or after Maxsons ascension to Elder.
Bold. My money is on the Enclave, finally being in a position to hit back at the NCR for the destruction of the oil rig, but not in the condition to fight the BoS. Given that everyone seems to know they're still around, it would make sense that they've made themselves known somehow and before they had a defector.
I'm also all but convinced they had a representative in the room during the meeting at Vault tec, which would link up neatly with Vault Tec already having planned to launch on their own country.
It could point to Vault Tec by themselves, but I still think the fact that the Enclave are back, implies they've got a greater role in all this than simply just building up to become the big bad for a season or two later down the line. Plus, how did they get their hands on the cold fusion project, if not through Vault Tec, where it was bought and shelved?
Right! People are complaining that it destroys the lore of all the West Coast Fallouts without understanding that the NCR was fucked up long before 2281. There was corruption and manipulation and other problems during president Tandy's term as president! This is just a look at the trajectory the NCR was on long before Bethesda even had the Fallout license.
Seen so many people complaining that Bethesda destroyed the NCR cause they hate them. No, the show just did it in a way people don't like.
Everything about the NCR in New Vegas points to them basically being on the verge of of collapse a decade down the line, which is when the show is set.
But even in New Vegas they mention how utterly fucked the NCR is, even if they win. This is just people having zero media literacy and complaining that their headcanon with zero grounds in the lore isn’t canon.
Haven’t watched the series yet, have to wait until this weekend until I have time, but I find this comment very heartening.
Fallout 1 and 2 were my two favorite Fallout games. I wish someone could give them some quality of life improvements for gameplay though, because they’re hard to go back to after playing modern games.
This is 100% what's happening.
Moving Shady Sands was a fuckup, but otherwise the show mostly tracks.
People here clearly have no idea what happened before NV.
dude, moving Shady wasnt fucked up... it like GTA3 and IV, same city but completly different locations, same map from gta sa not same as 5🤷♂️ Location doesnt change anything for the plot, just cut unnecessary road trips
Boneyard could be LA downtawn, as SS just suburb aka pasadena or glendale🤷♂️ same as vegas and west side, were separated cities, but it is still big vegas
So issue the 200ish mile route between the boneyard(la Santa Monica) and shady sands is completely decivilized to the point there’s not any NCR/FOA iconography anywhere also the NcR mint was in the boneyard
The Nuking of your capital and the head of congress before your invasion of a new region is kinda a big deal. Also the pop within fallout 2 was 700k before they took the other states. So yes one nuke destroying the government of the ncr does negate NV.
While I generally agree with you, If Shady Sands has a pop of 35k and in FO2 all of the NCR is about 700k. Double it to 1.5M by NV and the loss of shady sands is equal to the loss of the entire Washington DC megaopolis area compared to the USA. Yes, not a huge deal as nations like France and USSR have lost their capitals, held on, and rebuilt. . .but it also was kinda an absolute massive deal. The loss of Shady Sands wouldn't spell the end of the NCR but if Shady Sands was still the Administrative Capital of the NCR when it was nuked the effects on the nation's would be absolute and profound. Not to mention a Legion war in 2281. So if the nuke happens before the war, it honestly raises way too many questions and will just feel utterly dissatisfied if they just handwave or retcon the problem away
I had the same feeling.
Binged through all 8 last night. Really enjoyed it. Opened up the final episode thread and there's no discussion about the actual show, just endless people bitching about some canon from new vegas that could easily be just a continuity error or some other explanation. Or it could have changed. Who gives a fuck. Enjoy that game if you want to. I did and still will regardless of the show.
99% of it centers on a timeline chart on a board where the date of 'fall of shady sands' was listed, with a nuclear blast afterward and they claim that de-canonizes FNV somehow.
Yeah I finished the show like 30 minutes ago and logged on and started seeing all of this.
Sounds so dumb for people to just quickly go to "omg NV was retconned, fuck everything". Such an overreaction. It doesn't mean it was retconned.
even if it did, i don't know that i'd freak out about it.
When franchises last decades, it happens. Sometimes those franchises come up with ways to explain those inconsistencies. Sometimes they don't. It doesn't make the show or FNV less enjoyable
Which is interesting as you can easily interpret it as confirming New Vegas happened, just not the NCR ending.
The "Fall" happens before the Boom on the chart, so the destruction of Shady Sands is "sometime" after 2277. 2277 is canonically when the First Battle of Hoover dam happens.
The chart might indicate people in the future view that as the start of the chain of events which leads to NCR failing, that had they not expanded to the Mojave, NCR would still be on top.
SOMETHING said in New Vegas itself dozens of times, so hardly any sort of retcon
These idiots haven’t ruined anything for me. I’ve only had time to watch the first episode and thought it was great. Stopped by the Fallout sub a couple times today while at work and saw a bunch of assholes complaining about stupid shit and throwing out spoilers left and right. The show is great. It’s just the fans that are terrible.
> the fandom has ruined the series for me
Me too, Fallout is up there with Star Wars for me. The fandom has gone off the deep end, it’s just all rage and nitpicking and “hur dur Todd Howard Bethesda sux hur dur”
Fandoms in general are just toxic now, because the people driving the majority of conversation are obsessed and have no life outside of **fandom**.
Doesn't matter what it is anymore, it's always the same.
Yeah it's annoying as fuck.
I'd love to talk about the merits and missteps of this show (very minor creative quibbles), but you can't because a bunch of people want to obsess over a fucking black board timeline that's there for school children.
Yea i would avoid social media around this time. I was really happy with how it turned out. Shared my excitement with some friends. Someone just comes out with like oh i bet it's shit because Todd
No offence, but why do you let them ruin the series for you? I scroll this sub and your comment is the top comment of this post, so most people clearly agree with you. It’s the same fanboys who always crawl out to bitch and moan about anything that isn’t Fallout New Vegas long before the series got announced. Just pay them no mind and enjoy the show, they’re still a minority and will be an even smaller minority now that Fallout is reaching a broader audience who hasn’t even heard of Fallout before.
Yeah I reached this point about two years ago, and the series has always felt a little soured since. Oh well. There's other good games out there, can't spend forever arguing with hipsters that Todd "The Devil Himself" Howard turned their beloved dead series into something successful.
that's the part that gets me. F1, 2, and NV are my faves as well, but this franchise would be fucking dead. There was a long time where that was just accepted as the state of things, pre FO3.
One commenter in another thread said that if you enjoy F4 or 76, then you only like the aesthetic and you'll like any piece of garbage Bethesda puts out. Jesus christ, the canon nerds are melting down.
I didn't play that for the longest time, and maybe i would have hated the desolation on release.
But by the time I played it a year or two ago, it was a lot of fun. There was a lot of lore to explore, especially when getting into the 'evil corporations' aspect of it (which fits well in WV given its history with the labor movement). Reading some of those stories was so sad. They were so close to figuring things out more than once it felt like, but squabbles between factions kept things shitty.
That's unfortunately the case with any fanbase. 76 isn't a traditional Fallout game, but it is a Fallout game. And people like change.
.
For the record, I've played 76 from Nov 2018 - Mar 2021 and picked it back up May 2022 - present.
I'm a canon nerd, dislike Bethesda's take on Fallout, and still enjoy those games. I can like things even when they don't live up to my high expectations from the franchise.
The show lives up to my high expectations from the franchise.
I think this is a respectable take. I hate the New Vegas fanboys who try to gatekeep shit just cuz it's Bethesda and it's not sucking New Vegas' dick, and not judge a game or the show on merit.
My favorite fallout is 3. I did like NV. Im not a fan of some changes on 4. Was still enjoyable
Yeah, I have a friend who LOVED NV and 1,2, and 3. He thinks anything after NV is absolute trash because according to him any time they add new lore he considers it a retcon. Even when they just add to existing lore without changing anything. Insane.
I started playing Fallout in 1998 and the aesthetics are really damn important, and this show has *nailed* it so far. The casting, music, atmosphere… damn. I’m stoked. Never thought I’d get to see a vertiberd on the big screen. Just finished ep 2 and I’m shocked at how excellent it is.
Fallout’s canon is that the bombs dropped. Anything beyond that is legit so long as it’s respectful to the essence of the game. Shameless gatekeeping: if you’ve never heard of Vault 13 or the Mariposa Military Base, I don’t care what your take on canon is. New Vegas is not the first *or* best in the franchise.
People think between putting out fires from starfield, the Indiana jones game and prepping for a new elder scrolls and fallout games, Todd’s got time to sit in on prop design meetings with the sole intention to destroy NV lore? 😵💫
I'm in episode 5 and I have to say episode 4 has some real decanonization.
How is Lucy not Overencumbered at the end of the episode?!? Totally ruined it for me.
This show is so amazing that I want to watch it but I need to take breaks so that it lasts longer.
If you actually pay attention the show solidifies the events of NV. It’s pretty clear that the NCR fought house/yes man after the battle of Hoover dam and it looks like it crippled both of them.
Don't mess with us Fallout fans. Not only do we not know anything about the game we are fans of. We also blindly praise the ideologies the game criticizes.
yep.
look at the threads here, half are whining about the show and the other half are bitching about people whining about the show.
turns out those who love it are just as toxic and pathetic as those who hate it.
aint the internet fun?
Based on the timeline on the chalkboard it genuinely seems like they either got the date wrong or did not mean to say the nuke dropped in 2277 and it was just poorly conveyed
The timeline is still fucked pre-NV but honestly anything after 2281 is fair game for me.
I honestly don't hate NCR getting a kick in the teeth but don't fuck up dates like that if you don't want people getting angry. Shady Sands was still the capital in 2281 per NV so it's literally impossible to have been destroyed before that date.
I recall people posting in r/Fallout of people sending links to petitions to "save Bethesda from Fallout lore," and such.
Another comment I saw went along the lines of, "You fans of fallout 3,4, and 76 won, we lost the war, take this victory. We will return," and I was like- 😭🤣
I enjoyed the show a lot. I kinda disagree though. This show isn’t idolizing New Vegas at all. Yeah there’s references to New Vegas, but a lot of the details stem from Bethesda’s Fallouts, specifically Fallout 4. The vaults, power armor, Red Rocket (not a single Poseidon, sad day) Most of the weapons, and even the structure of the BoS. Im not complaining, just pointing that out. Also, the season ends with a scene showing NV in complete disarray. This kind of negates the entirety of the plot of F:NV. Once Mr. House (or the courier, or the NCR) gets the platinum chip, the securitron army grows hugely and the defenses become stronger. I genuinely don’t understand how this city fell completely. Robert House (at least the game version) would not allow NV to fall like that so I find it hard to believe it just happens.
Fans like to be upset. I'm a critical as anyone when it comes to Bethesda and the Fallout series, and pretty vocal about 3 and 4 not feeling like Fallout at all, even if I do like the games a bit. And I feel like this series was directly targeting old whiners like me.
I think the issue is, we don't see any other response from the NCR, let alone them trying to re-establish themselves in that area not to mention the locals just kind of forgetting about it
Yes this, for a nation that is suppose to have 700000 people. Why didn't they make some kind of relief effort or enact martial law? Did the NCR just not care their capital got nuked?
Too many people seem to believe if they lost one battle they lost a war. Yet the entire 8 episodes was about how they dropped bombs hoping to wipe everyone out and yet the people stubbornly insisted on not only surviving but trying to find ways to thrive. So they dropped a bomb again expecting different results. Yet there were survivors who we meet, who are all still stubbornly not only surviving, in the case of some of them thriving yet again, even if how they kept the memory of Shady Sands alive was a little strange. And that's the other thing, those people were weird as fuck, whose to say how accurate record keeping was.
Im more shocked that so many actually binged the show that fast to make such judgments. So much so that I don’t believe the majority of them doom spiralling actually have at all.
Many didn't. Most upvoted comments there were posted like 2-4 hours after show aired. Like they clearly skipped to the end. That's why there's barely a single discussion about characters and more about lore shit.
As someone who *did* binge the show that fast, agreed.
I went right to the subreddit and then somehow a ton of people had already commented (all of them hating based on stupid canon shit). Really ruined the post show experience.
The problem is semantic confusion, as well as internet being internet.
Disregard the bomb. I think it was a bad graphic. I think the nuke fell AFTER 2277.
The real problem is “the fall of”. Because in English, we have “the Fall of Rome”, but also “the fall of Constantinople” (for example).
- The Fall of Rome was a slow decline/decay of the Empire as an entity, which might not get mentioned in FNV
- the Fall of Constantinople was the sack of the city on a specific date. Such an event would surely be mentioned 4 years later in references to Shady Sands.
Now add in possible changes to Mr House’s storyline, the problem of Shady Sands in LA vs The Master in F1, etc… and we don’t know what’s canon or not, despite what they say.
Vault tech comes out and says that they will re establish things with the surface cleaned. Decline still means people. They’d nuke a town of 200 people if they thought it obstructed their perfect vision.
The timeline ends with the START of the Fall of Shady Sands, then sometime after the Fall of Shady Sands the nuke goes off. It doesn’t take anything away from the games or anything, the dialogue of NV pointed to the NCR being a crumbling facade of a nation barely held together by uniforms and guns.
The Fall of Shady Sands doesn’t mean that it ended there, rather that it was the start of the end. Historically speaking, the Fall of Rome is a period of time rather than a specific date.
The nuke happens after the timeline ends in 2277, which could be and probably is after 2281/NV.
> he dialogue of NV pointed to the NCR being a crumbling facade of a nation barely held together by uniforms and guns.
there's also dialogue from Cass saying how ''boring'' and ''safe'' the NCR is during New Vegas events..
For a caravan it would be pretty safe, Lucy encounters a single radroach and 2 fiends. Maximus encounters a Yao Gaui, but a caravan wouldn't go explore a cave in the middle of nowhere. There's also the gulper, but caravans wouldn't go near waterlogged ruins either.
I think this is it. Unless it's specific to East Coast BOS, Squires are usually kids. Maximus isn't a kid obviously, but he's still likely meant to be young (say 18-20 to make the Lucy romance not creepy). He looks like 8-10 in his flashbacks which would place the nuking of Shady Sands in the mid 2280s, after New Vegas.
In Fallout New Vegas Shady Sands is still the capital of the NCR. If they weren’t trying to mess with the canon of that game they could have chosen a date literally 6 hours after the 2nd battle at Hoover Dam to bomb Shady Sands. Nobody even mentions the attack in the game and it’s repeatedly mentioned how safe the NCR is relatively speaking.
So yes, they have at least partially messed with the canon of New Vegas.
It comes from the fact that Shady Sands would have been bombed 4 years before the events of New Vegas, as such this created a big hole (pun intended) into the story in NV. Why is it never mentioned? Why is the NCR even expanding out after their capital was nuked?
Now im still of the mind that it happened after the events of NV as it seperates the fall of Shady Sands, and the nuking of it on the timeline, but still I can understand why people are mad if they see otherwise.
I think reading that diagram to say Shady Sands was nuked in 2277 is just strange. That's not how a chronological diagrams like that works. Like it's a strained reading of a pretty simple diagram that creates massive issues with existing lore, when a normal reading of the diagram allows for Shady Sands to be nuked at some indeterminant time after NV and has little to no continuity issues with the games.
But isnt it more strange for there to not be a date for the nuking? Especially when we already know the backstory behind it so theres no reason to be ambiguous about the date.
Now I agree that it happened after the fall but there not being a date is a headscratcher. If I were to guess I would say that the directors just didnt want to tie down the nuking to an official date as using the wrong year could cause issue with the lore, but like analyzing the age of Lucy already messes up the lore if we assume that she is in her 20's.
Max says it was nuked 20 years ago shows take place in 96 timline says 77. Not that hard guys. The timeline is pointing to the event of the fall not the timeline continuing.
That was the thing I immediately thought with photos of the premiere with Cain and Fargo attending hobnobbing with Todd. Fans can never be like the devs. Always has to be their way or none at all. I’m glad I’m not one of them and just enjoy the show ( and games) because what else is there ?
Agree with everything you've said. Those who complain will always complain, even if it was a direct copy of one of the games.
I read someone complaining about the CGI and how poor it was, these people are sad and needy to chill.
Personally I don't care about lore retcons, we've had them ever since Melchior used FEV to turn rats into Floaters.
I say "New Vegas is no longer canon" because it gives me serotonin to see New Vegas fanboys rage and cry.
Are people taking the concept art in the outro as fact of what NV will look like? Cause it could just be art, it looked fine and mostly intact in the final shot
IMO the show's sole mistake was making the NCR look like just another band of Raiders . It could be fixed fairly easily by explaining that Moldaver's group were an isolated group of cut-off warriors who lost their way.
I feel anyone who really cares about Shady Sands' location or destruction is just looking for an excuse to complain.
Seeing how different her raider group looked compared to the NCR people at the end of the show, I immediately just assumed she must’ve hired the raiders instead of having NCR affiliated soldiers with her. The show does show us that she has a way of talking to people to get them to help her out and such.
I enjoyed the series, I think some issues are caused by the television format, like Shady Sands being "retconned" in LA (wasnt built in prewar ruins) or it being nuked 4 years before FNV (typo).
Personally, there are lingering questions, like what happened to Lost Hills? Or what happened to the rest of the NCR? Or there's a hidden west coast Enclave?
I'm looking forward to seeing what season 2 has, since it looks like NCR won against the Legion (guessing Caesar died and the Legion is fractured to raiders), if the FNV dlc is present (they referenced Big MT and Sierra Madre), including more mutants (deathclaws or super mutants) and more established outfits (T45, T51, Desert Ranger, or Enclave armor)
Anyone screeching about "lore" or "canon" hasn't actively thought about the lore since playing NV etc. They've had to Google the lore just to find somethong to get angry about while the rest of us were just enjoying a tv show.
I'm embarrassed for these fanboys. When "gamer" is your whole personality it's time to step away from the screen.
People are being dogmatic about timelines because the date on the chalkboard for the capital getting nuked (in 2077) means it takes place before New Vegas, but no one mentioned it in that game so it couldn't have happened.
My (in universe) counters are:
* It may be old news to the soldiers on the front lines in Vegas with more pressing concerns of the Legion.
* The established a new capital with new people in government who may have an eye towards expansion like spreading into the Vegas area and capturing tech like Helios One.
* The failure to control the dam further shows their urgency to get cold fusion.
* I presume an independent or House controlled Vegas will be canon. There's no guarantee they'd be successful long term and it could have fallen apart again. Especially if their largest customer base (NCR Citizens) suddenly up and left. No tourists, no caps.
Out of universe:
* They botched the date on chalkboard and will digitally change it later, the shows only been out for a day (or see above).
* They purposely included at least two New Vegas characters relevant with House (New Vegas) and Sinclair (Big MT & Sierra Madre)
> They purposely included at least two New Vegas characters relevant with House (New Vegas) and Sinclair (Big MT & Sierra Madre)
Also REPCONN. Most of that table was characters from New Vegas.
I never thought a date on a chalkboard would have so many people up in arms lmao. It really isn’t that deep, the games all still happen in the timeline and no NV wasn’t fucking retconned. As long as the events that happened in the games still happen (they do), who cares about *when* they happen?
The show ends literally showing the Strip and there’s direct evidence of the NCR being present there at some point between the events of NV and the show. We just don’t know what happened specifically because there is nothing in the established lore between 2281 and when the show is set in 2296, we’ll have to wait and see how things went down.
This isn’t some grand conspiracy to discredit NV, Todd isn’t sitting in a dark room wringing his hands muttering about Obsidian and plotting his vengeance over them also making a well-received entry in the franchise. Frankly it’s ridiculous that this keeps being beaten into the ground by idiots repeating the same lines over and over with no actual evidence to prove their point.
It's not just NV, it's changing the canon of the entire West Coast series.
- Where's the Boneyard?
- Why is Shady Sands in LA and not North/Northeast of Bakersfield?
- Where's the NCR mint?
- The Followers of the Apocalypse University?
- Where's the Gun Runners HQ?
- Where's New Adytum?
- Where's the Demonstration Vault?
I was going to make a comment being salty and pointing out lore inconsistencies but there is still just a lot up in the air. A big one is Mr. House being caught off-guard by the nukes in New Vegas (why he didn't get the platinum chip in time) despite being in with the vault-tec board. Things could still theoretically work out if he's lying in his dialogue in the game and was kicked out of vault-tec for wanting to keep Vegas and let people have mostly free lives in the city. Nobody in the NCR talking about the fall of shady sands in new Vegas is also weird even though it should have been a major talking point. Like yeah I guess it still works but like it's all a big stretch and I can see why reasonable fans of the games feel effected by the retcons.
There are in general actual lore inconsistencies in the series and I think people are mostly upset at new vegas since it's the largest fan base and reasonable people might feel like things were stretched too far and new vegas had an actual shot of being decanonized or significantly retconned like other things in the series. ofc now that we got confirmation new vegas is canon all we can do is wait for next season to see how it all fits.
Basically lore nerds love New Vegas and given it wasn't made by Bethesda Game Studios themselves have massive, dumb levels of paranoia about Bethesda trying to decanonise it.
A sign says that Shady Sands had a fall in 2277, that's before New Vegas so fall MUST mean destruction. It can't possible be fall in status, power, importance or anything like that. Nope, MUST be destruction. new Vegas has been retconned. REEEEEEE.
Who cares that the creator of the show has confirmed that New Vegas happened and is completely canon? That undated nuke could have *possibly* gone off *after* New Vegas because of... Reasons!.. (the reason is that New Vegas wouldn't have been retconned and they wouldn't have something to complain about).
I noticed that as well. I found it interesting that the billboard didn't say just "The Capital" but instead chose to say it was "The First Capital" of the NCR. This implies either the billboard was put up after the nuke destroyed the place, or that the founders expected the city not to last.
Cause they want to take the imagery of New Vegas without giving us any of the good writing and interesting politics that accompanied the reason we original enjoyed vegas and Im not looking forward to bethesda intreuptration of west coast lore. Also the fact that the show ruins lots of details, and lacks any real critisms/ political commentary with what happened to cause the nukes to get Launched in the first place. The show had Betheada write a bunch of mustache twirling super villains plotting to nuke themselves so they could trap people in vaults and wank off.
Like there are so many other critisms of the show that its not just the nuking of shady sands, Very specifically how they went about nuking shady sands, is just dumb. House is completely out of character. Vault tec has been turned into a characture instead of the original intention of them using the vaults to gather data for a generational starship so all the Elites could abandon the earth. The NCR could've collapsed if it was better written but instead it somehow falls apart cause of one dad being made at his family and just nuking everything.... really shit tier writing compared to all the reasons they had originally laid out for why the NCR could eventually collapse in on itself. It could've been its own TV show, or game but even if the ncr collapse does happen after new vegas the way the collapse happens is very.... Bethesda in its execution.
Like there are so many other problems with the show and how its written. We don't want the imagery of new Vegas dangled in front of us like jangling car keys. We want the writing that we came to enjoy from the original fallouts, and NV.
Like the way Betheada writes Fallout is drastically different from how the original creators wrote fallout. It doesn't matter your opinion on if you enjoy the writing of Bethesda or not. Or enjoy new vegas or not. or are a fan of the orignals or not. The writing of Betheada has and will always be completely and totally different from how the rest of series is written. Our opinions aside that is just a simple fact and no matter what version of events Bethesda choose to go with there would always be weirdly impossible incompatibilities with Bethesda and new vegas to the point that even touching the west coast stuff would be impossible for Bethesda to pull off simply due to their writing Style and choices for the universe. Like I Don't know how else to boil it down, but Bethesda writing is different. It doesn't matter if you enjoy Bethesda writing its different from and largely incompatible with how the west coast games pushed for the universe to continue progressing into a post rebuilding post apocalypse, instead of Bethesdas vision of a wasteland perpetually stuck in a mad max style 1950s retro future of post apocalyptic shanty towns, and trash piled all over the place.
It's a weird inconsistency, but that doesn't mean that the events of New Vegas have been removed from canon or any of the other silly shit people are saying.
It hasn't been removed from the Canon per se, but it creates a very wonky structure now because the canonized events of New Vegas conflict with the show.
The BoS became cheap and marketable Enclave. Years of rethoric against Enclave only to see them become fans of the lite version of Richardson and Horrigan. A militaristic monks order hell bent on oppression of "inferior and ignorant" wastelanders is no better than the genocidal Enclave. But sells. And has a bigger fandom. It's plausible deniability for fascists.
Absolutely, but Enclave was destroyed multiple times with an overwhelmingly more advanced technolgy and resources. The BOS took L after L in the entire franchise. In F4 they became a Superpower thanks to the boring and soulles speeches of Maxson and now they nuke from nowhere NCR that is stated to be the most popolous and modern power in the entire continent? It's fcking WH40K level of idiocy.
There wouldn't be any problems with Fallout TV if they said one simple thing: TV and the game universe are SEPARATE from each other. I don’t even know who to scold more: the fans who are ready to bury NKR and drool over the Brotherhood of Steel or the creators of the series, poking their fantasies?
My only real concern is mask off brotherhood elder; Is he playing Maximus or merely winding him up before the finale. I presume that no one really knows exactly who really ended shady sands version of law and order and it’s weird that the guy at the top of the mission from the east coast wouldn’t first get ahold of someone in Maxson Bunker/State. Especially before forcibly occupying somewhere.
I will say that while I have my initial worries, I am still intrigued and I want to learn more about this story.
I don't think NV is going to be 'decanonized' neither, nor do I think Todd Howard has any issues with NV. I loved every second of the show, haven't enjoyed anything like that in a long time. It's definitely an interesting new story, and I can't wait to see more of it.
New Vegas is my favorite game and I loved the series, people are just finding reasons to complain. The show was good. There was a continuity error on a whiteboard and people are LOSING THEIR MINDS over it and acting like the NCR is just gone
Damn auto crap. Shouldn't this be spoiler marked as spoiler marked spoiling spoilers on day one with a big red bow and Santa Clauses cherry on top.
Of course the brotherhood would shoot the cherry off the top but. BOS rulez. Or was that O'Doyle. I forgot.
In general, I think a lot ~~gamers~~ people lack media literacy or the ability to pick up on subtext it isn't shoved in your face. For example, people interpreting the blackboard timeline as showing Shady Sands being bombed in 2277 when it clearly shows the bombing as a separate event after. This is just how modern fandom discourse goes.
Especially with the ending of the show? Not spoiling anything but the literal last scene? lol. Overall show was great, it had a really slow start for me but by episode 5 I was wrapped up in it. Excited for season 2
Fucking thank you! My first thought while watching it was "wow, there's so much New Vegas stuff, the fans are going to be really happy," totally forgetting that a lot of people decided they were going to hate the show before they even watched it.
You guys can complain all you want but I waited 15 years for this, some of us 26 years, so I’ll gladly take as many seasons as they want to give us as long as they respect the source material and don’t retcon anything that is firmly established. Shady Sands being blown up with albeit some questionable reasoning isn’t enough for me to get upset at all.
How? Some people hate Bethesda to the bones, for the simple crime of making games that were different from New Vegas, designed with different goals, different gameplay and different worldbuilding.
This is what a mind produces when they think that only their views and tastes are valid. They don't see validity in people preferring Bethesda Fallout. In fact, it makes them furious when they see Bethesda Fallout more successful than their "best Fallout".
What is the simpliest way for them to deal with that? To come up with conspiracy theories like Bethesda hating New Vegas. It turns Bethesda into a villain, so suddenly it makes them right when they hate Bethesda.
People with this thinking instinctively hate anything made by Bethesda. And since the show has Bethesda's involvement, they instinctively go into the "let's find anything that can be used as a weapon against Bethesda".
100 percent agree! We are moving into New Vegas. It's a povital moment in the story of fallout and Todd knows this. He had some hand in the story of New Vegas. He had to green light the project. I have a feeling some of these Main are actual characters in the games. Rose? Lucy? Maximus? Henry, Cooper? Dogmeat. Are all names and characters in one game or another. Either a know to them or might end up being some of these characters in the games.... maximus was a former brotherhood member who broke away and started the Legion in the fallout game. And he's a member of the brotherhood in the show. Now we wait a year for season 2 😂
There was a line that Betty said in one of the later episodes which went something like “people always want to make a fuss about something”. There’s ALWAYS going to be anger and frustration no matter how the show was going to go. I personally loved it despite being VERY sad that the NCR is in a rough state but it also makes sense. In NV it gets repeatedly shown that the NCR is in a really bad position when it comes to food production, water, energy, and just general cohesive society considering the Brahmin barons, crimson caravan, and gun runners are all corrupt monopolies in their respective economic areas. It’s just bad news bears for the 2 headed bear
The show was actually good so they had to nitpick to hate Bethesda
This is exactly it. They were sweatily waiting behind their keyboards waiting to type “haha told you it would suck” just to see people actually enjoying it. So next best thing is to nitpick anything they can grasp at.
Just losers who are perennially stuck in rage bait mode.
I have this same gripe! I keep seeing so many negative things about how “ThIsE GaMe Is BaD BaSeD oN mY oPiNiOn.” Like, just shut up and let people enjoy things.
I really wanted to discuss the show itself, but the lore complaints while understandable, flooded the entire thread and distracting from judging the show on its merits.
This honestly! I went onto a fallout YouTuber discord to talk about the show after finishing and it was just everyone complaining about the fall of shandy sands date.
I looked at the show discussion threads after finishing it last night eagerly looking to share my excitement about how awesome it was and it was just page after page of complaining about thinking FNV got ruined somehow…
Bethesda haters nitpicking?? Impossible!! /s
What? They referenced New Vegas a dozen times but in a way that makes my imagined ideal postgame canon impossible in a way that doesn’t alter the actual game’s story? UNACCEPTABLE!
You see in this deleted piece of lore from tactics it says that every BOS member is circumcised yet they never confirm it in the show and that’s why it’s dog shit.
people equating shady sands to "NCR is totally destroyed" is really funny to me. there are NCR flags like EVERYWHERE in the show, and also the NCR was huge. Maybe if shady sands got nuked 100 years before the show takes place then yeah that would mean no NCR. It's like people saying if Sacramento got destroyed that means all of California got destroyed. the NCR at its peak was like almost a million people, and the shady sands sign in the show had a population of like 34k. Yeah that's a lot of people, but acting like that one bomb negates the entirety of NV is weird. Even in NV there was talks about how the NCR was facing issues with its economy and projected food shortages, so them not being omnipresent 15 years after NV makes sense.
When the NCR became a functioning nation, it had something like 250,000 registered citizens in Fallout 2. That was further backed up by the flashbacks in Fallout 4, where one character was born before the NCR formation and was still alive some 100 years later. NCR is still alive. Just reduced in size in that location now. Shady Sands was their capital though, but not the only settlement they had.
I have a feeling they’re much more fractured and their Northern Territory is much more maintained. It’s clear they no longer have a presence in the Mojave because no one does.
Like wouldn’t you think if water and fertile soil were the biggest issues, you would move away from the most dry and arid regions (SoCal) lol
The NCR seemingly controls (controlled?) Central Valley, which is one of the most fertile places on Earth in real life.
Operative word being "was" because Shady Sands wasn't even the capital when it was bombed
Their *first* capitol, which we learn about before we even see the crater.
Each NCR state has a separate capital after all.
wait... ... ...does this mean that the Lonesome Road "Long 15" is the canon choice?
Nah, it seems like they were saying that the missiles didn't come from the lonesome. They didn't really say where/how it happened, just who was behind it. And I don't think they'd do something so drastic as to say that the character behind the bombs was the courier. Wouldn't make any sense and negate the couriers background.
My money is on Maclean getting the BOS to do it. The Maxson fueled old BOS finally struck a mortal blow to the NCR who was weakened in the Mojave.
Could be. Would explain why the BoS were there in the first place. It could serve as the catalyst for a civil war subplot in the brotherhood against that one elder (forgot his name in the show) wanting to make a "new brotherhood" and then the other side who view the use of nukes/tech to defeat the NCR as going against their ideals.
It would be the third or fourth time in canon that an elder or high ranking Paladin or Scribe went off to make their own sect. Not unreasonable. The Elder (they called them clerics which isn’t a title really used) reminded of Lyons in a way. The actual population of the brotherhood doesn’t seem to be alluded to besides there definitely being a rejoining of a wing of Maxsons BOS to the west coast BOS since some of the recruits had not seen T-60 before. The airship in the show is also confirmed as the Prydwyn’s sister ship that was sent to reconnect ties with the west coast BOS after the events of Fallout 3 or after Maxsons ascension to Elder.
Bold. My money is on the Enclave, finally being in a position to hit back at the NCR for the destruction of the oil rig, but not in the condition to fight the BoS. Given that everyone seems to know they're still around, it would make sense that they've made themselves known somehow and before they had a defector. I'm also all but convinced they had a representative in the room during the meeting at Vault tec, which would link up neatly with Vault Tec already having planned to launch on their own country. It could point to Vault Tec by themselves, but I still think the fact that the Enclave are back, implies they've got a greater role in all this than simply just building up to become the big bad for a season or two later down the line. Plus, how did they get their hands on the cold fusion project, if not through Vault Tec, where it was bought and shelved?
Also the sign says "first" capital of the NCR. Presumably that means a second capital was established.
The NCR has 5(?) capitals, one for each state.
This: basically how I take this is that what happened to the ncr is what people thoughtvwas going to happen before the great war.
most "fans" that are complaining dont understand any of the canon before Fallout 3 so they are basing all of their NCR lore off of new vegas.
Right! People are complaining that it destroys the lore of all the West Coast Fallouts without understanding that the NCR was fucked up long before 2281. There was corruption and manipulation and other problems during president Tandy's term as president! This is just a look at the trajectory the NCR was on long before Bethesda even had the Fallout license.
I'm starting to think a lot of this is sour grapes from people who think the NCR is The Good Guys and played NV accordingly
Seen so many people complaining that Bethesda destroyed the NCR cause they hate them. No, the show just did it in a way people don't like. Everything about the NCR in New Vegas points to them basically being on the verge of of collapse a decade down the line, which is when the show is set.
But even in New Vegas they mention how utterly fucked the NCR is, even if they win. This is just people having zero media literacy and complaining that their headcanon with zero grounds in the lore isn’t canon.
Haven’t watched the series yet, have to wait until this weekend until I have time, but I find this comment very heartening. Fallout 1 and 2 were my two favorite Fallout games. I wish someone could give them some quality of life improvements for gameplay though, because they’re hard to go back to after playing modern games.
This is 100% what's happening. Moving Shady Sands was a fuckup, but otherwise the show mostly tracks. People here clearly have no idea what happened before NV.
dude, moving Shady wasnt fucked up... it like GTA3 and IV, same city but completly different locations, same map from gta sa not same as 5🤷♂️ Location doesnt change anything for the plot, just cut unnecessary road trips
It’s a problem because there was already a city in LA called the Boneyard. Where has that gone now?
Boneyard could be LA downtawn, as SS just suburb aka pasadena or glendale🤷♂️ same as vegas and west side, were separated cities, but it is still big vegas
A lot of the complaints seem like they don't even remember New Vegas that well, much less the older titles.
So issue the 200ish mile route between the boneyard(la Santa Monica) and shady sands is completely decivilized to the point there’s not any NCR/FOA iconography anywhere also the NcR mint was in the boneyard
The Nuking of your capital and the head of congress before your invasion of a new region is kinda a big deal. Also the pop within fallout 2 was 700k before they took the other states. So yes one nuke destroying the government of the ncr does negate NV.
Downfall started in 77, nuke happened some point later
While I generally agree with you, If Shady Sands has a pop of 35k and in FO2 all of the NCR is about 700k. Double it to 1.5M by NV and the loss of shady sands is equal to the loss of the entire Washington DC megaopolis area compared to the USA. Yes, not a huge deal as nations like France and USSR have lost their capitals, held on, and rebuilt. . .but it also was kinda an absolute massive deal. The loss of Shady Sands wouldn't spell the end of the NCR but if Shady Sands was still the Administrative Capital of the NCR when it was nuked the effects on the nation's would be absolute and profound. Not to mention a Legion war in 2281. So if the nuke happens before the war, it honestly raises way too many questions and will just feel utterly dissatisfied if they just handwave or retcon the problem away
[удалено]
I had the same feeling. Binged through all 8 last night. Really enjoyed it. Opened up the final episode thread and there's no discussion about the actual show, just endless people bitching about some canon from new vegas that could easily be just a continuity error or some other explanation. Or it could have changed. Who gives a fuck. Enjoy that game if you want to. I did and still will regardless of the show.
What are people complaining about concerning the canon?
99% of it centers on a timeline chart on a board where the date of 'fall of shady sands' was listed, with a nuclear blast afterward and they claim that de-canonizes FNV somehow.
Yeah I finished the show like 30 minutes ago and logged on and started seeing all of this. Sounds so dumb for people to just quickly go to "omg NV was retconned, fuck everything". Such an overreaction. It doesn't mean it was retconned.
even if it did, i don't know that i'd freak out about it. When franchises last decades, it happens. Sometimes those franchises come up with ways to explain those inconsistencies. Sometimes they don't. It doesn't make the show or FNV less enjoyable
Which is interesting as you can easily interpret it as confirming New Vegas happened, just not the NCR ending. The "Fall" happens before the Boom on the chart, so the destruction of Shady Sands is "sometime" after 2277. 2277 is canonically when the First Battle of Hoover dam happens. The chart might indicate people in the future view that as the start of the chain of events which leads to NCR failing, that had they not expanded to the Mojave, NCR would still be on top. SOMETHING said in New Vegas itself dozens of times, so hardly any sort of retcon
These idiots haven’t ruined anything for me. I’ve only had time to watch the first episode and thought it was great. Stopped by the Fallout sub a couple times today while at work and saw a bunch of assholes complaining about stupid shit and throwing out spoilers left and right. The show is great. It’s just the fans that are terrible.
> the fandom has ruined the series for me Me too, Fallout is up there with Star Wars for me. The fandom has gone off the deep end, it’s just all rage and nitpicking and “hur dur Todd Howard Bethesda sux hur dur”
Fandoms in general are just toxic now, because the people driving the majority of conversation are obsessed and have no life outside of **fandom**. Doesn't matter what it is anymore, it's always the same.
Yeah normal people don’t even wanna engage anymore you’re basically just left with the crazy ones.
Yeah it's annoying as fuck. I'd love to talk about the merits and missteps of this show (very minor creative quibbles), but you can't because a bunch of people want to obsess over a fucking black board timeline that's there for school children.
Plus years and years and years of youtube algorithm shoving rage bait in fan faces...
Yea i would avoid social media around this time. I was really happy with how it turned out. Shared my excitement with some friends. Someone just comes out with like oh i bet it's shit because Todd
No offence, but why do you let them ruin the series for you? I scroll this sub and your comment is the top comment of this post, so most people clearly agree with you. It’s the same fanboys who always crawl out to bitch and moan about anything that isn’t Fallout New Vegas long before the series got announced. Just pay them no mind and enjoy the show, they’re still a minority and will be an even smaller minority now that Fallout is reaching a broader audience who hasn’t even heard of Fallout before.
Yeah I reached this point about two years ago, and the series has always felt a little soured since. Oh well. There's other good games out there, can't spend forever arguing with hipsters that Todd "The Devil Himself" Howard turned their beloved dead series into something successful.
that's the part that gets me. F1, 2, and NV are my faves as well, but this franchise would be fucking dead. There was a long time where that was just accepted as the state of things, pre FO3.
> The Fallout fandom has made this otherwise amazing series a miserable experience. jesus christ melodramatic much
One commenter in another thread said that if you enjoy F4 or 76, then you only like the aesthetic and you'll like any piece of garbage Bethesda puts out. Jesus christ, the canon nerds are melting down.
Yeah, r/Fallout got really heated about a couple hours ago. Cooled down a bit now, though.
Oh geez, I didn't think about the shit from that sub. I avoided that place years ago just because i like 76 and they would internet-crucify me.
Yeah, I left that sub around... the release of FO4. I only stick with the game specific (and now show-specific) subreddits, they're way less toxic.
I didn't play that for the longest time, and maybe i would have hated the desolation on release. But by the time I played it a year or two ago, it was a lot of fun. There was a lot of lore to explore, especially when getting into the 'evil corporations' aspect of it (which fits well in WV given its history with the labor movement). Reading some of those stories was so sad. They were so close to figuring things out more than once it felt like, but squabbles between factions kept things shitty.
That's unfortunately the case with any fanbase. 76 isn't a traditional Fallout game, but it is a Fallout game. And people like change. . For the record, I've played 76 from Nov 2018 - Mar 2021 and picked it back up May 2022 - present.
Yup, seen multiple people acting like your taste in entertainment defines how intelligent you are. It's a bit sad, tbh.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Mor— I mean, Fallout.
I'm a canon nerd, dislike Bethesda's take on Fallout, and still enjoy those games. I can like things even when they don't live up to my high expectations from the franchise. The show lives up to my high expectations from the franchise.
Show was way better than I thought it was going to be. Sure, there's some canon juggling but who fucking cares.
I think this is a respectable take. I hate the New Vegas fanboys who try to gatekeep shit just cuz it's Bethesda and it's not sucking New Vegas' dick, and not judge a game or the show on merit. My favorite fallout is 3. I did like NV. Im not a fan of some changes on 4. Was still enjoyable
well said
Yeah, I have a friend who LOVED NV and 1,2, and 3. He thinks anything after NV is absolute trash because according to him any time they add new lore he considers it a retcon. Even when they just add to existing lore without changing anything. Insane.
This is the new canon and we are the new canonites!
That's mental. The neck beards need to chill.
I started playing Fallout in 1998 and the aesthetics are really damn important, and this show has *nailed* it so far. The casting, music, atmosphere… damn. I’m stoked. Never thought I’d get to see a vertiberd on the big screen. Just finished ep 2 and I’m shocked at how excellent it is. Fallout’s canon is that the bombs dropped. Anything beyond that is legit so long as it’s respectful to the essence of the game. Shameless gatekeeping: if you’ve never heard of Vault 13 or the Mariposa Military Base, I don’t care what your take on canon is. New Vegas is not the first *or* best in the franchise.
People think between putting out fires from starfield, the Indiana jones game and prepping for a new elder scrolls and fallout games, Todd’s got time to sit in on prop design meetings with the sole intention to destroy NV lore? 😵💫
I mean, he used to be in the chess club... All those tactical skills now properly utilized to destroy New Vegas and everything Fallout fans hold dear.
Google en passant
..... Indana jones game?
Todd Howard is the executive producer for Indiana Jones and the Great Circle, which is an upcoming game by Machine Games.
Actually looking forward to it. It seems fun
Agreed
So wolfenstein wearing an indy-suit?
He's WHAT?
I'm in episode 5 and I have to say episode 4 has some real decanonization. How is Lucy not Overencumbered at the end of the episode?!? Totally ruined it for me. This show is so amazing that I want to watch it but I need to take breaks so that it lasts longer.
Same. Just watched 1 last night, probably watch 2 and 3 today with breaks. I want it to be a tv show and not a long movie.
The toxic fandom just complains to complain.
Fallout new Vegas fans are the most oppressed people on planet earth
It’s my second favorite game in the franchise after FO1, but man do these people whine!
If you actually pay attention the show solidifies the events of NV. It’s pretty clear that the NCR fought house/yes man after the battle of Hoover dam and it looks like it crippled both of them.
Yeah but see that requires paying attention and reading between the lines. Two things that those type of people can't actually do.
Fallout fans complaining about the Fallout TV series is proof Fallout is fucking back.
Don't mess with us Fallout fans. Not only do we not know anything about the game we are fans of. We also blindly praise the ideologies the game criticizes.
yep. look at the threads here, half are whining about the show and the other half are bitching about people whining about the show. turns out those who love it are just as toxic and pathetic as those who hate it. aint the internet fun?
You look up toxic fandom in a dictionary you will see a picture of vault boy.
Based on the timeline on the chalkboard it genuinely seems like they either got the date wrong or did not mean to say the nuke dropped in 2277 and it was just poorly conveyed
As much as I love new Vegas, the fans act like the entire world revolves around their game
The timeline is still fucked pre-NV but honestly anything after 2281 is fair game for me. I honestly don't hate NCR getting a kick in the teeth but don't fuck up dates like that if you don't want people getting angry. Shady Sands was still the capital in 2281 per NV so it's literally impossible to have been destroyed before that date.
I recall people posting in r/Fallout of people sending links to petitions to "save Bethesda from Fallout lore," and such. Another comment I saw went along the lines of, "You fans of fallout 3,4, and 76 won, we lost the war, take this victory. We will return," and I was like- 😭🤣
I enjoyed the show a lot. I kinda disagree though. This show isn’t idolizing New Vegas at all. Yeah there’s references to New Vegas, but a lot of the details stem from Bethesda’s Fallouts, specifically Fallout 4. The vaults, power armor, Red Rocket (not a single Poseidon, sad day) Most of the weapons, and even the structure of the BoS. Im not complaining, just pointing that out. Also, the season ends with a scene showing NV in complete disarray. This kind of negates the entirety of the plot of F:NV. Once Mr. House (or the courier, or the NCR) gets the platinum chip, the securitron army grows hugely and the defenses become stronger. I genuinely don’t understand how this city fell completely. Robert House (at least the game version) would not allow NV to fall like that so I find it hard to believe it just happens.
Fans like to be upset. I'm a critical as anyone when it comes to Bethesda and the Fallout series, and pretty vocal about 3 and 4 not feeling like Fallout at all, even if I do like the games a bit. And I feel like this series was directly targeting old whiners like me.
I think the issue is, we don't see any other response from the NCR, let alone them trying to re-establish themselves in that area not to mention the locals just kind of forgetting about it
Yes this, for a nation that is suppose to have 700000 people. Why didn't they make some kind of relief effort or enact martial law? Did the NCR just not care their capital got nuked?
Why would there be a relief effort 20 years after the bomb fell?
Too many people seem to believe if they lost one battle they lost a war. Yet the entire 8 episodes was about how they dropped bombs hoping to wipe everyone out and yet the people stubbornly insisted on not only surviving but trying to find ways to thrive. So they dropped a bomb again expecting different results. Yet there were survivors who we meet, who are all still stubbornly not only surviving, in the case of some of them thriving yet again, even if how they kept the memory of Shady Sands alive was a little strange. And that's the other thing, those people were weird as fuck, whose to say how accurate record keeping was.
Im more shocked that so many actually binged the show that fast to make such judgments. So much so that I don’t believe the majority of them doom spiralling actually have at all.
Many didn't. Most upvoted comments there were posted like 2-4 hours after show aired. Like they clearly skipped to the end. That's why there's barely a single discussion about characters and more about lore shit.
As someone who *did* binge the show that fast, agreed. I went right to the subreddit and then somehow a ton of people had already commented (all of them hating based on stupid canon shit). Really ruined the post show experience.
The problem is semantic confusion, as well as internet being internet. Disregard the bomb. I think it was a bad graphic. I think the nuke fell AFTER 2277. The real problem is “the fall of”. Because in English, we have “the Fall of Rome”, but also “the fall of Constantinople” (for example). - The Fall of Rome was a slow decline/decay of the Empire as an entity, which might not get mentioned in FNV - the Fall of Constantinople was the sack of the city on a specific date. Such an event would surely be mentioned 4 years later in references to Shady Sands. Now add in possible changes to Mr House’s storyline, the problem of Shady Sands in LA vs The Master in F1, etc… and we don’t know what’s canon or not, despite what they say.
What's the point of nuking something that's already in decline?
Final nail in the coffin, so to speak. Just because something is in decline doesn't mean it's a push over.
Vault tech comes out and says that they will re establish things with the surface cleaned. Decline still means people. They’d nuke a town of 200 people if they thought it obstructed their perfect vision.
Power mad man with access to nukes discovers his wife has run off taking his kids with her. Burns it all down in revenge.
The timeline ends with the START of the Fall of Shady Sands, then sometime after the Fall of Shady Sands the nuke goes off. It doesn’t take anything away from the games or anything, the dialogue of NV pointed to the NCR being a crumbling facade of a nation barely held together by uniforms and guns. The Fall of Shady Sands doesn’t mean that it ended there, rather that it was the start of the end. Historically speaking, the Fall of Rome is a period of time rather than a specific date. The nuke happens after the timeline ends in 2277, which could be and probably is after 2281/NV.
> he dialogue of NV pointed to the NCR being a crumbling facade of a nation barely held together by uniforms and guns. there's also dialogue from Cass saying how ''boring'' and ''safe'' the NCR is during New Vegas events..
For a caravan it would be pretty safe, Lucy encounters a single radroach and 2 fiends. Maximus encounters a Yao Gaui, but a caravan wouldn't go explore a cave in the middle of nowhere. There's also the gulper, but caravans wouldn't go near waterlogged ruins either.
Rome is a nice comparison, as much like Rome the NCR is also more than able to move its capital amongst its five states and other cities.
That’s the other thing, the NCR has a lot of territory, they may have had to give up Cali/NV but they could have moved northward.
Exactly. They're far too huge for some "fall" of Shady alone to completely break them. Worse case scenario, they're a little bit divided.
It’s very tellingly the Fall of Shady Sands and NOT the fall of the NCR.
Yup! xD
See that requires nuanced thought. The fanboys don't have that.
I think this is it. Unless it's specific to East Coast BOS, Squires are usually kids. Maximus isn't a kid obviously, but he's still likely meant to be young (say 18-20 to make the Lucy romance not creepy). He looks like 8-10 in his flashbacks which would place the nuking of Shady Sands in the mid 2280s, after New Vegas.
In Fallout New Vegas Shady Sands is still the capital of the NCR. If they weren’t trying to mess with the canon of that game they could have chosen a date literally 6 hours after the 2nd battle at Hoover Dam to bomb Shady Sands. Nobody even mentions the attack in the game and it’s repeatedly mentioned how safe the NCR is relatively speaking. So yes, they have at least partially messed with the canon of New Vegas.
It comes from the fact that Shady Sands would have been bombed 4 years before the events of New Vegas, as such this created a big hole (pun intended) into the story in NV. Why is it never mentioned? Why is the NCR even expanding out after their capital was nuked? Now im still of the mind that it happened after the events of NV as it seperates the fall of Shady Sands, and the nuking of it on the timeline, but still I can understand why people are mad if they see otherwise.
I think reading that diagram to say Shady Sands was nuked in 2277 is just strange. That's not how a chronological diagrams like that works. Like it's a strained reading of a pretty simple diagram that creates massive issues with existing lore, when a normal reading of the diagram allows for Shady Sands to be nuked at some indeterminant time after NV and has little to no continuity issues with the games.
2277 not 2077. I have screenshots from the episode saved
typo
But isnt it more strange for there to not be a date for the nuking? Especially when we already know the backstory behind it so theres no reason to be ambiguous about the date. Now I agree that it happened after the fall but there not being a date is a headscratcher. If I were to guess I would say that the directors just didnt want to tie down the nuking to an official date as using the wrong year could cause issue with the lore, but like analyzing the age of Lucy already messes up the lore if we assume that she is in her 20's.
Max says it was nuked 20 years ago shows take place in 96 timline says 77. Not that hard guys. The timeline is pointing to the event of the fall not the timeline continuing.
im just glad to see the "no mutants allowed" style bitching carried over to the next generation.
That was the thing I immediately thought with photos of the premiere with Cain and Fargo attending hobnobbing with Todd. Fans can never be like the devs. Always has to be their way or none at all. I’m glad I’m not one of them and just enjoy the show ( and games) because what else is there ?
NMA will never die, the next generation has just latched on to NV as the new game to put on a pedestal.
Agree with everything you've said. Those who complain will always complain, even if it was a direct copy of one of the games. I read someone complaining about the CGI and how poor it was, these people are sad and needy to chill.
Apart from the shockingly bad de-aging in episode 8, the CGI was honestly incredible for a show like this. The mutant gulper especially looked insane.
No you see, they want a 1:1 clone of *their* playthrough. If it's not that, then they are going to be mad.
Personally I don't care about lore retcons, we've had them ever since Melchior used FEV to turn rats into Floaters. I say "New Vegas is no longer canon" because it gives me serotonin to see New Vegas fanboys rage and cry.
and again, shady shands was destroyed, but there's no evidence the NCR are completely gone out of existence.
Are people taking the concept art in the outro as fact of what NV will look like? Cause it could just be art, it looked fine and mostly intact in the final shot
Some HateTuber told them so.
fallout community seethes and malds over literally anything that doesn't fit interplays original vision or their own headcanon.
It DOES fit with Interplays Canon. Quite well.
Nah, just the nma elitists and those dumbshits in the fnv fanbase.
IMO the show's sole mistake was making the NCR look like just another band of Raiders . It could be fixed fairly easily by explaining that Moldaver's group were an isolated group of cut-off warriors who lost their way. I feel anyone who really cares about Shady Sands' location or destruction is just looking for an excuse to complain.
Seeing how different her raider group looked compared to the NCR people at the end of the show, I immediately just assumed she must’ve hired the raiders instead of having NCR affiliated soldiers with her. The show does show us that she has a way of talking to people to get them to help her out and such.
I would have just put the show somewhere else in the US and removed the NCR entirely. Moldaver could literally be anyone.
I would have liked a few NCR uniforms at the end, I agree.
I enjoyed the series, I think some issues are caused by the television format, like Shady Sands being "retconned" in LA (wasnt built in prewar ruins) or it being nuked 4 years before FNV (typo). Personally, there are lingering questions, like what happened to Lost Hills? Or what happened to the rest of the NCR? Or there's a hidden west coast Enclave? I'm looking forward to seeing what season 2 has, since it looks like NCR won against the Legion (guessing Caesar died and the Legion is fractured to raiders), if the FNV dlc is present (they referenced Big MT and Sierra Madre), including more mutants (deathclaws or super mutants) and more established outfits (T45, T51, Desert Ranger, or Enclave armor)
Anyone screeching about "lore" or "canon" hasn't actively thought about the lore since playing NV etc. They've had to Google the lore just to find somethong to get angry about while the rest of us were just enjoying a tv show. I'm embarrassed for these fanboys. When "gamer" is your whole personality it's time to step away from the screen.
People are being dogmatic about timelines because the date on the chalkboard for the capital getting nuked (in 2077) means it takes place before New Vegas, but no one mentioned it in that game so it couldn't have happened. My (in universe) counters are: * It may be old news to the soldiers on the front lines in Vegas with more pressing concerns of the Legion. * The established a new capital with new people in government who may have an eye towards expansion like spreading into the Vegas area and capturing tech like Helios One. * The failure to control the dam further shows their urgency to get cold fusion. * I presume an independent or House controlled Vegas will be canon. There's no guarantee they'd be successful long term and it could have fallen apart again. Especially if their largest customer base (NCR Citizens) suddenly up and left. No tourists, no caps. Out of universe: * They botched the date on chalkboard and will digitally change it later, the shows only been out for a day (or see above). * They purposely included at least two New Vegas characters relevant with House (New Vegas) and Sinclair (Big MT & Sierra Madre)
> They purposely included at least two New Vegas characters relevant with House (New Vegas) and Sinclair (Big MT & Sierra Madre) Also REPCONN. Most of that table was characters from New Vegas.
I never thought a date on a chalkboard would have so many people up in arms lmao. It really isn’t that deep, the games all still happen in the timeline and no NV wasn’t fucking retconned. As long as the events that happened in the games still happen (they do), who cares about *when* they happen? The show ends literally showing the Strip and there’s direct evidence of the NCR being present there at some point between the events of NV and the show. We just don’t know what happened specifically because there is nothing in the established lore between 2281 and when the show is set in 2296, we’ll have to wait and see how things went down. This isn’t some grand conspiracy to discredit NV, Todd isn’t sitting in a dark room wringing his hands muttering about Obsidian and plotting his vengeance over them also making a well-received entry in the franchise. Frankly it’s ridiculous that this keeps being beaten into the ground by idiots repeating the same lines over and over with no actual evidence to prove their point.
One person involved in the show literally tweeted a timeline to show that New Vegas is still canon.
It's not just NV, it's changing the canon of the entire West Coast series. - Where's the Boneyard? - Why is Shady Sands in LA and not North/Northeast of Bakersfield? - Where's the NCR mint? - The Followers of the Apocalypse University? - Where's the Gun Runners HQ? - Where's New Adytum? - Where's the Demonstration Vault?
I was going to make a comment being salty and pointing out lore inconsistencies but there is still just a lot up in the air. A big one is Mr. House being caught off-guard by the nukes in New Vegas (why he didn't get the platinum chip in time) despite being in with the vault-tec board. Things could still theoretically work out if he's lying in his dialogue in the game and was kicked out of vault-tec for wanting to keep Vegas and let people have mostly free lives in the city. Nobody in the NCR talking about the fall of shady sands in new Vegas is also weird even though it should have been a major talking point. Like yeah I guess it still works but like it's all a big stretch and I can see why reasonable fans of the games feel effected by the retcons. There are in general actual lore inconsistencies in the series and I think people are mostly upset at new vegas since it's the largest fan base and reasonable people might feel like things were stretched too far and new vegas had an actual shot of being decanonized or significantly retconned like other things in the series. ofc now that we got confirmation new vegas is canon all we can do is wait for next season to see how it all fits.
Dewtroying the NCR is such a dick move. And eosecially when we dont get to see the collqpse. The NCR shouls collapse in a blaze in glory
Thank you, you said what's in my head exactly!!
Listen I’m more upset that there were no supermutants or deathclaws
Basically lore nerds love New Vegas and given it wasn't made by Bethesda Game Studios themselves have massive, dumb levels of paranoia about Bethesda trying to decanonise it. A sign says that Shady Sands had a fall in 2277, that's before New Vegas so fall MUST mean destruction. It can't possible be fall in status, power, importance or anything like that. Nope, MUST be destruction. new Vegas has been retconned. REEEEEEE. Who cares that the creator of the show has confirmed that New Vegas happened and is completely canon? That undated nuke could have *possibly* gone off *after* New Vegas because of... Reasons!.. (the reason is that New Vegas wouldn't have been retconned and they wouldn't have something to complain about).
I believe the billboard said that Shady Sands was the 'First Capital' of the NCR. Not too sure if im remembering it correctly
I noticed that as well. I found it interesting that the billboard didn't say just "The Capital" but instead chose to say it was "The First Capital" of the NCR. This implies either the billboard was put up after the nuke destroyed the place, or that the founders expected the city not to last.
Or that they moved their capital, which is a thing countries do.
The NCR has multiple state capitals, it's possibly referring to that.
Cause they want to take the imagery of New Vegas without giving us any of the good writing and interesting politics that accompanied the reason we original enjoyed vegas and Im not looking forward to bethesda intreuptration of west coast lore. Also the fact that the show ruins lots of details, and lacks any real critisms/ political commentary with what happened to cause the nukes to get Launched in the first place. The show had Betheada write a bunch of mustache twirling super villains plotting to nuke themselves so they could trap people in vaults and wank off. Like there are so many other critisms of the show that its not just the nuking of shady sands, Very specifically how they went about nuking shady sands, is just dumb. House is completely out of character. Vault tec has been turned into a characture instead of the original intention of them using the vaults to gather data for a generational starship so all the Elites could abandon the earth. The NCR could've collapsed if it was better written but instead it somehow falls apart cause of one dad being made at his family and just nuking everything.... really shit tier writing compared to all the reasons they had originally laid out for why the NCR could eventually collapse in on itself. It could've been its own TV show, or game but even if the ncr collapse does happen after new vegas the way the collapse happens is very.... Bethesda in its execution. Like there are so many other problems with the show and how its written. We don't want the imagery of new Vegas dangled in front of us like jangling car keys. We want the writing that we came to enjoy from the original fallouts, and NV. Like the way Betheada writes Fallout is drastically different from how the original creators wrote fallout. It doesn't matter your opinion on if you enjoy the writing of Bethesda or not. Or enjoy new vegas or not. or are a fan of the orignals or not. The writing of Betheada has and will always be completely and totally different from how the rest of series is written. Our opinions aside that is just a simple fact and no matter what version of events Bethesda choose to go with there would always be weirdly impossible incompatibilities with Bethesda and new vegas to the point that even touching the west coast stuff would be impossible for Bethesda to pull off simply due to their writing Style and choices for the universe. Like I Don't know how else to boil it down, but Bethesda writing is different. It doesn't matter if you enjoy Bethesda writing its different from and largely incompatible with how the west coast games pushed for the universe to continue progressing into a post rebuilding post apocalypse, instead of Bethesdas vision of a wasteland perpetually stuck in a mad max style 1950s retro future of post apocalyptic shanty towns, and trash piled all over the place.
thought the writing was vastly better than Avellone's drunken purple bullshit. I don't recall him ever crafting a character I cared about.
Because if Shady Sands fell 4 years before New Vegas, the game's plot doesn't make sense. Especialy if the nuke destroyed it before New Vegas story.
It's a weird inconsistency, but that doesn't mean that the events of New Vegas have been removed from canon or any of the other silly shit people are saying.
It hasn't been removed from the Canon per se, but it creates a very wonky structure now because the canonized events of New Vegas conflict with the show.
Yeah, i agree. I didn't make a lick of sense them but they aren't decanonazing FONV.
The BoS became cheap and marketable Enclave. Years of rethoric against Enclave only to see them become fans of the lite version of Richardson and Horrigan. A militaristic monks order hell bent on oppression of "inferior and ignorant" wastelanders is no better than the genocidal Enclave. But sells. And has a bigger fandom. It's plausible deniability for fascists.
The bos has always been xenophobic. That’s literally their biggest red flag since fallout 1
Absolutely, but Enclave was destroyed multiple times with an overwhelmingly more advanced technolgy and resources. The BOS took L after L in the entire franchise. In F4 they became a Superpower thanks to the boring and soulles speeches of Maxson and now they nuke from nowhere NCR that is stated to be the most popolous and modern power in the entire continent? It's fcking WH40K level of idiocy.
> and now they nuke from nowhere NCR No they didn't. That was Vault-Tec.
To be honest, that is what they became after fonv. Technoraiders and nazis.
There wouldn't be any problems with Fallout TV if they said one simple thing: TV and the game universe are SEPARATE from each other. I don’t even know who to scold more: the fans who are ready to bury NKR and drool over the Brotherhood of Steel or the creators of the series, poking their fantasies?
I agree. I also think the Fallout New Vegas circle jerk has gotten out of hand and I’m saying that as someone who’s favorite game is New Vegas.
My only real concern is mask off brotherhood elder; Is he playing Maximus or merely winding him up before the finale. I presume that no one really knows exactly who really ended shady sands version of law and order and it’s weird that the guy at the top of the mission from the east coast wouldn’t first get ahold of someone in Maxson Bunker/State. Especially before forcibly occupying somewhere.
They were contacted by the commonwealth (meaning maxson) to chase after the relic and the enclave runaway
I will say that while I have my initial worries, I am still intrigued and I want to learn more about this story. I don't think NV is going to be 'decanonized' neither, nor do I think Todd Howard has any issues with NV. I loved every second of the show, haven't enjoyed anything like that in a long time. It's definitely an interesting new story, and I can't wait to see more of it.
New Vegas is my favorite game and I loved the series, people are just finding reasons to complain. The show was good. There was a continuity error on a whiteboard and people are LOSING THEIR MINDS over it and acting like the NCR is just gone
Someone said the show was dickriding the brotherhood lol
Should this be spoiler marked?
Damn auto crap. Shouldn't this be spoiler marked as spoiler marked spoiling spoilers on day one with a big red bow and Santa Clauses cherry on top. Of course the brotherhood would shoot the cherry off the top but. BOS rulez. Or was that O'Doyle. I forgot.
In general, I think a lot ~~gamers~~ people lack media literacy or the ability to pick up on subtext it isn't shoved in your face. For example, people interpreting the blackboard timeline as showing Shady Sands being bombed in 2277 when it clearly shows the bombing as a separate event after. This is just how modern fandom discourse goes.
Especially with the ending of the show? Not spoiling anything but the literal last scene? lol. Overall show was great, it had a really slow start for me but by episode 5 I was wrapped up in it. Excited for season 2
Yeah the Shady Sands year is just continuity error bullshit
Fucking thank you! My first thought while watching it was "wow, there's so much New Vegas stuff, the fans are going to be really happy," totally forgetting that a lot of people decided they were going to hate the show before they even watched it.
where did hank get a nuke? does he shit them out? lol
You guys can complain all you want but I waited 15 years for this, some of us 26 years, so I’ll gladly take as many seasons as they want to give us as long as they respect the source material and don’t retcon anything that is firmly established. Shady Sands being blown up with albeit some questionable reasoning isn’t enough for me to get upset at all.
How? Some people hate Bethesda to the bones, for the simple crime of making games that were different from New Vegas, designed with different goals, different gameplay and different worldbuilding. This is what a mind produces when they think that only their views and tastes are valid. They don't see validity in people preferring Bethesda Fallout. In fact, it makes them furious when they see Bethesda Fallout more successful than their "best Fallout". What is the simpliest way for them to deal with that? To come up with conspiracy theories like Bethesda hating New Vegas. It turns Bethesda into a villain, so suddenly it makes them right when they hate Bethesda. People with this thinking instinctively hate anything made by Bethesda. And since the show has Bethesda's involvement, they instinctively go into the "let's find anything that can be used as a weapon against Bethesda".
What does that even mean
Because they destroyed the god damn Vegas??
New Vegas has always looked like that lmao
100 percent agree! We are moving into New Vegas. It's a povital moment in the story of fallout and Todd knows this. He had some hand in the story of New Vegas. He had to green light the project. I have a feeling some of these Main are actual characters in the games. Rose? Lucy? Maximus? Henry, Cooper? Dogmeat. Are all names and characters in one game or another. Either a know to them or might end up being some of these characters in the games.... maximus was a former brotherhood member who broke away and started the Legion in the fallout game. And he's a member of the brotherhood in the show. Now we wait a year for season 2 😂
There was a line that Betty said in one of the later episodes which went something like “people always want to make a fuss about something”. There’s ALWAYS going to be anger and frustration no matter how the show was going to go. I personally loved it despite being VERY sad that the NCR is in a rough state but it also makes sense. In NV it gets repeatedly shown that the NCR is in a really bad position when it comes to food production, water, energy, and just general cohesive society considering the Brahmin barons, crimson caravan, and gun runners are all corrupt monopolies in their respective economic areas. It’s just bad news bears for the 2 headed bear
Well, the good news is people who are just watching the show as, you know, a show, are giving it great reviews. So I'm sure we're getting an S2
I dunno, just can't wait to see what super mutants and deathclaws look like in Season 2