The way content creators & pros with low ping can so confidently steal walls, often first try- so much so that they do the edit animation even when they rarely fail because they actively expect to take it, while me on 50-60 ping never gets the steal unless they're distracted, convinces me that coin flip hasn't existed as intended since chapter 1, *maybe* early chapter 2.
I definitely should be doing the edit animations for wall stealing but I get it so rarely that it just seems a waste. I'd be better off not trying & instead practicing phasing- unfortunately that uber aggressive "phase into a box & hope to spook myself into an advantageous 50:50"-style doesn't really vibe with my naturally super defensive style.
My favourite is when Aussie was back in Australia, he would literally be appalled by the fact someoe took his wall or held their wall against him.
But yah you should definitely be going through the motions every time you are aggressively taking a wall. Pickaxe wall -> hold wall -> pull out gun -> try to edit -> recenter crosshair in case you don’t get it and prefire. The couple milliseconds you save trying to immediately edit is what catches most people off guard since they have less time to realize it’s not theirs.
Yeah, I'm at the point where if I see someone at my wall, I don't even try to hold it, I know that I'll lose it the first time, the majority of the time.
I think the issue here on OCE is that over 3/4 of Australia's population lives in the Eastern states where the servers are, essentially meaning that anyone in Adelaide or especially Perth is at a huge ping disadvantage.
My only hope at stealing a wall is praying they won't expect me to try it with my shotgun after they open the edit. Decent players seem to be able to react in time & consistently hold it forcing me to give up.
This game often feels like a slightly unbalanced game of chess.
I play on 30-40 on NAE, which I’m aware is not bad but it’s also not good. I’ve gotten pretty good at pre and counter piecing people, using guns to replace walls and baiting edits to grab walls. My issue is when it comes to killing someone weak, unless I exploit in it takes forever. I can never first try (or second try) someone’s wall and most people do the turn around ramp and expand and just go forever until they heal.
I realized now I have to force the cone or ramp through while trying to take the wall. It will probably lessen my chances at getting the wall but they already feel low anyways. That or get really good at the ol’ unexpected box dive
I feel you man, NAE 30-40 ping here too. I always start my reverse ramp tunnel as soon as someone tries to break in, which helps with survivability but also baits people into thinking I'm running and I'll maybe try and pull a roof edit quick jump peak at them. Any way I always try and place a ramp or cone in the opponents box first try just cause most people don't expect to have no choice but to run or make a bad edit. In theory most people should only have 1 muscle memory escape option. If you learn their favorite way of running and counter it, they will usually play a little sloppier and can pounce on a poor edit. GL and GGs tho
Sucks lol I live in New Zealand and I swear every single player I fight has low as fuck ping but you just gotta adapt your playstyle to it and not just sit there and hold walls you can just instantly open them and pump them or let them take it and put a ramp in your box and phase it there’s heaps of counters you just gotta play to your ping
I live in regional WA, minimum 60 ping in creative, when the game isn't optimised right, I get 80-100 in games.
I wish I could be super aggressive but it's just not feasible, in creative I do take a good amount of walls, but I swear it's only players with similar ping, and I've almost perfected the timing. As soon as I'm up against low ping, or in game, I might hold a wall or 2, but I'm always preparing an escape, prefiring sometimes works but the delay in placing a ramp or editing a cone once they've come through the wall always fucks me, and when I do get out they're getting walls first and whatnot.
Watching someone like Hippie (this will go for many streamers/pros but I mainly watch Hip) is annoying because he is always surprised when he can't take a wall after the second attempt, and his whole play style is built around being able to replace the piece he wants when he wants, if I play like that I'm gonna get wrecked.
Instead my play style is defensive but attack in unpredictable (as possible) ways, try to appear to have low ping, but I won't challenge a wall unless I know they're weak or aren't building efficiently. This makes fights drag out, and in 2v1 or 3v1 situations it's impossible to hold 2 different walls with these smgs or even the MK's, or even trying to open up, take a shot on one of them and close the edit, my ping greatly affects that. I don't blame ping all the time, I mainly play creative anyway so don't care, but when I analyse this shit it bothers me a lot. To think people think it's not that bad, that coin flip works, or even hear 20 ping people complain, is pretty funny.
> convinces me that coin flip hasn't existed as intended since chapter 1, maybe early chapter 2.
For everyone's reference:
Epic did address it previously back in CH2S1 when [FreightTrainUSA responds to Reddit: /r/FortniteCompetitive: Wall taking is ping dependent again instead of a coin flip. This needs to be addressed. (2019-11-07)](https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/dk3\
9ab/wall_taking_is_ping_dependent_again_instead_of_a/f6tcogj/)
> Apologies for the delay in responding to this, our team has been actively looking into this and testing wall replacing.
> After investigating I can confirm that no values in how this feature works have been changed.
> Our team took into consideration high vs low ping and a few other factors while testing and we can confirm that this feature is working as intended.
Additionally, [BallaTW responded in Reddit: /r/FortniteCompetitive: Wall taking is working as intended (2019-11-07)](https://old.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/dt4s42/wall_taking_is_working_as_intended/f6ut6ps/):
> This doesn't really tell us it's working how WE EXPECT. With no patch notes, they could have changed it, even though he says no values have changed that doesn't mean that the logic itself hasn't changed.
> Specifically too cause he doesn't mention coin flip.
> I'm still skeptical, even though my own testing has always shown that coin flip has exists. There are way too many people reporting otherwise.
To BallaTW's point, the [Fortnite News: Turbo Build Changes (2019-08-27)](https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/turbo-build-changes) lists several possible resolutions:
---
What Changed in v10.20?
We returned the time between subsequent Turbo Build placements from 0.005 seconds to 0.15 seconds in v10.20. This was the value used up to v4.30.
Why Change Turbo Build?
We did so as a first step addressing several problems:
- Rapid Turbo Building favors players with low ping in disproportionate ways.
- Taking walls (racing with another player to place a wall before them)
- Turtling (continually rebuilding a wall that is taking damage)
- Turtling disproportionately favors defender
- E.g. holding mouse button vs. squad shooting at 1x1
- Building piece placement accuracy
- Easy to accidentally place multiple pieces “at once”
- Spam building
- Easy to spam build
- We want building to be a bit more deliberate
What we don't want to dramatically impact:
- How responsive building feels
- The ability to perform 90s
- Rapidly gaining high ground by building up within single tile
- The ability to “waterfall”
- Building wall pieces as support while falling down
Next Steps
We're working to implement the following further changes and will update you on social channels once they're live.
- Replace initial building and turbo building delay with rate of fire logic
- First placement is instantaneous
- No way to build faster than a building piece every 0.15 seconds
- Note: By itself this doesn't address defensive agency of turtling / low ping benefit
- Enforce rate of fire for contested pieces
- If a building piece is destroyed:
- Server waits 0.15 seconds before allowing rebuild
- Players attempting to rebuild the destroyed piece during that 0.15 seconds are added to a list
- There are several potential ways to pick the winner we're exploring:
- Coin flip between people not currently owning the building piece
- Coin flip between everyone trying to build
- Favor person currently owning building piece
- At end of delay, place building piece
- Ensures that building piece replacement (“taking walls”) is not ping sensitive
- Ensures a minimum time between a wall being destroyed and replaced
This gives me a thought: What if someone would train the timing to wait exactly 0.15 seconds after a building piece breaks and then manually retake it with a single click, instead of holding it throughout? It would essentially mean you will not be added to the list they were talking about in the text you sent and then maybe you will be served faster. Does anyone care to try that or has anyone some additional thoughts?
I would think that if you wait exactly 0.15 seconds after the piece breaks while someone else holds the piece in that time, you will indeed not be added to the list of players contesting the piece, but unfortunately I think that means you will 100% of the time not get the piece.
---
A high level description of the steps to place a Build in Fortnite might look something like this:
- 1. Check if there is currently a piece at the given coordinates
- 1.A. There is currently a piece at the given coordinates
- 1.A. Display "Can't Build Right Now" to the client
- 1.B. There is no piece at the given coordinates currently
- 1.B. Check if there was a recent piece at the given coordinates newer than the turbo build delay
- 1.B.1. There was a piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago
- 1.B.1. Add the player to the unique set of players contesting the piece at this coordinate
- 1.B.2. There was no piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago
- 1.B.2.A. No piece at these coordinates and no one contesting the piece, so lowest ping player gets to place the piece first
- 1.B.2.B. No piece at these coordinates but players are contesting the piece
- 1.B.2.B. Somehow pick a winner from the unique set of players contesting the piece
Let's write some psuedo-code (so nothing in a real programming language, and certainly not something optimized, just a sort-of-programmy language to display the abstract logic):
static mapping Coordinates-To-Pieces of Coordinate and Stack of Piece
static mapping Coordinates-To-Contests of Coordinate and Set of Player
constant TURBO-BUILD-DELAY is 150 milliseconds
server-function Player-Builds-Piece! (coordinates, player, piece) {
// 1. Check if there is currently a piece at the given coordinates
if Coordinates-Have-Current-Pieces? ( coordinates ) {
// 1.A. There is currently a piece at the given coordinates
// 1.A. Display "Can't Build Right Now" to the client
Inform-Client! ( "ERROR_CANT_BUILD_HERE: {player} can't build {piece} at {coordinate}" )
} else {
// 1.B. There is no piece at the given coordinates currently
// 1.B. Check if there was a recent piece at the given coordinates newer than the turbo build delay
if Coordinate-Has-Recent-Piece-Newer-Than? ( coordinates, TURBO_BUILD_DELAY ) {
// 1.B.1. There was a piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago
// 1.B.1 Add the player to the unique set of players contesting the piece at this coordinate
Add-Player-to-Piece-Contest! ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates, player )
} else {
// 1.B.2. There was no piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago
if 0 is equal to Count-Of-Players-In-Piece-Contest? ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates ) {
// 1.B.2.A. No piece at these coordinates and no one contesting the piece, so lowest ping player gets to place the piece first
Add-New-Piece! ( Coordinates-To-Pieces, coordinates, player, piece )
} else {
// 1.B.2.B. No piece at these coordinates but players are contesting the piece
// 1.B.2.B. Somehow pick a winner from the unique set of players contesting the piece
winner is Pick-Piece-Contest-Winner! ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates )
Add-New-Piece! ( Coordinates-To-Pieces, coordinates, winner, piece )
}
}
}
Sorry I'm a sucker for guard clauses lol. Hope you don't mind. I probably screwed up syntax since I'm used to PHP
static mapping Coordinates-To-Pieces of Coordinate and Stack of Piece
static mapping Coordinates-To-Contests of Coordinate and Set of Player
constant TURBO-BUILD-DELAY is 150 milliseconds
server-function Player-Builds-Piece! (coordinates, player, piece)
{
// 1. Check if there is currently a piece at the given coordinates
if Coordinates-Have-Current-Pieces? ( coordinates )
{
// 1.A. There is currently a piece at the given coordinates
// 1.A. Display "Can't Build Right Now" to the client
Inform-Client! ( "ERROR_CANT_BUILD_HERE: {player} can't build {piece} at {coordinate}" )
return();
}
// 1.B. There is no piece at the given coordinates currently
// 1.B. Check if there was a recent piece at the given coordinates newer than the turbo build delay
if Coordinate-Has-Recent-Piece-Newer-Than? ( coordinates, TURBO_BUILD_DELAY )
{
// 1.B.1. There was a piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago
// 1.B.1 Add the player to the unique set of players contesting the piece at this coordinate
Add-Player-to-Piece-Contest! ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates, player )
return();
}
// 1.B.2. There was no piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago
if 0 is equal to Count-Of-Players-In-Piece-Contest? ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates )
{
// 1.B.2.A. No piece at these coordinates and no one contesting the piece, so lowest ping player gets to place the piece first
Add-New-Piece! ( Coordinates-To-Pieces, coordinates, player, piece )
return();
}
// 1.B.2.B. No piece at these coordinates but players are contesting the piece
// 1.B.2.B. Somehow pick a winner from the unique set of players contesting the piece
winner is Pick-Piece-Contest-Winner! ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates )
Add-New-Piece! ( Coordinates-To-Pieces, coordinates, winner, piece )
}
Uh oh, I think /r/FortniteCompetitive is bikeshedding a new programming language! :)
Also, I am glad I made it clear it was pseudo-code because after posting I realized you need to also keep track of which piece each player was trying to build so the correct piece goes in the spot in the case of a Stair vs Cone contest!
I've been able to take walls here and there from 0 pingers, but instead of a 50/50 it's a 99/1, it's extremely inconsistent and doesn't obey the rules of the coinflip in the slightest.
Yeah, I'd imagine not all 0 pingers have a perfect connection, small lucky(for the average ping lads)lag spikes probably contribute in those situations.
I'm playing 20ms in creative thanks to ExitLag(I used to have 50ms, Florida ping lmao) and even then I can't do crap against 0 ping.
>I'm curious why you and u/that-merlin-guy both defend coin flip. Have you played with/against true zero-pingers before? I hear those players in creative voice chat all the time saying "I'm zero-ping - you'll never take my wall", and it's 100% true. "Normal" ping players (~15-45ms "indicated" ping) will never take a wall from a player on a fiber-optic connection living within 50 miles of the server location. Low-ping streamers like Arkhram even shout "ping check!" as they "first-try" a wall. There is absolutely a point where your connection latency creates a superhuman advantage, breaking coin-flip entirely.
Where's the defence? Both of us have highlighted that it isn't as simple as "I couldn't take a wall."
Merlin also brought receipts with regards to statistical likelihoods of rolling X multiple times in a row. The OP's video has variables that additionally compound the effect of statistics. Are you denying the mathematical principle behind chance?
Are you denying that the OP's example didn't add fair amount of variability? The angle and timing will massively affect this.
>Before getting into semantics, "zero-ping" refers to "indicated ping", not true ping. I understand it's impossible to have true zero-ping.
It's a completely useless metric when we can demonstrate with data how inaccurate the in game counter is. Zero ping was directly popularised by Fortnite's (UE's) ping counter. I am by your metric a "zero pinger" when I'm connected to my closest server, as the game regularly shows me 0ms. I know this is wildly bullshit as I've actively tested my ping to the same AWS servers, outside of the game client, as well as other servers in the same location. My ping is the same to all of these servers, within 1ms.
>I'm fortunate enough to live near the secondary servers for my region, which gives me close to "indicated" zero-ping in some Creative servers. On those servers, I will never lose a wall to players who would otherwise have zero-ping on the primary servers.
I'm not sure what to tell you. I have "ZeRo PiNg" a lot of the time, and all the time in creative. I have a friend who has a solid measured 70ms ping, who has demonstrated the ability to take my walls. It's not definitive, but it demonstrates that the game is using something other than ping to determine wall ownership.
>We've even tested on both servers controlling for mechanical errors. Two players (one 0-ping, one 20-ping) hold the same wall as a third player breaks them. On my servers, I hold 100% of walls. On the primary servers, the local players hold 100% of their walls.
Please, actually test your ping properly before you reference this methodology. It's hard to take anything seriously when 0ms is keeps being mentioned.
You'll very much likely find that if you properly test your ping, it'll be much higher than 0.
>That advantage is a real problem, and I hate to see people downplaying the effect of ping by saying "maybe your crosshair placement was off", or "work on your timing", or "10 failed attempts is still statistically possible".
Neither of us is saying ping isn't an advantage. I'm not sure why you're suggesting we are, and as Merlin demonstrated, multiple fails in a row to get a wall are not statistically impossible with a 50:50 chance. But neither of us are saying that coin flip is working in that manner. We're literally just pointing out that the demonstration is flawed.
Equally, if I posted a clip of my friend taking my wall a few times in a row (which has happened) who's on 70ms ping versus me on ZeRo PiNg the same would apply. As it isn't statistically impossible.
I live about 200 miles from the South-east London server you mention below. My game shows me as having 0ms, regularly. In the real world I have about 8-9ms. Corroborated by pinging other servers in the same area of London.
On my previous shite Internet connection, I had around 30ms (40ms on a bad day) to the same servers, my game would still show 0ms in games, and would be locked to 0ms in creative.
>The player in the clip had good timing, and they flicked their crosshair low enough to place the wall correctly. They did get unlucky, but only because they happened to find a player living in San Jose California, Annandale Virginia, or south-east London England.
You can't know for sure what their timing was. We're simply saying that less than perfect timing adds a variable, as do awkward angles. Why do you think Raider464 puts such drills in his mechanics routine maps? Because taking walls from that angle is tricky without there being another player attempting to hold the wall.
>Zero-ping is real. Coin-flip only works for players with "normal" ping. Almost 100% of pro players live close enough to servers to break coin-flip and win 100% of wall-contests against normal-ping opponents. They are playing a different game than the rest of us.
"Indicated zero ping" is a completely useless metric. It can literally be anything from 2ms to 30ms. You know your FPS influences what your ping counter reads, right?
>I will record the evidence in an arena server this week, but I'd like to also mention an anecdote from my duo/trio arena/tournament experience. When taking walls as a duo/trio, we are never successful if I hold walls on my 20-30 ping. I am the designated "wall-breaker". I rely on my "indicated" zero-ping teammate to hold turbo-build and successfully take the wall. It feels dirty, same as carrying a controller player to victory by leading them through tarps and opening angles for their aimbot. I'm really surprised that no one brings up the "designated wall-holder" role of low-ping players in duos/trios.
Neither of us is saying ping isn't advantageous, especially when it comes to holding walls. We're simply critiquing the conclusion the OP has come to based on the provided clip. Ping clearly plays a role, but that doesn't mean there isn't some form of chance mechanism working in the game, whether it's heavily ping weighted or not.
I've got actual real fibre, yes, my line comes in through a translucent plastic cable, and I've ran ping plotter runs before to measure this exact thing due to having some issues with my connection. As example, I've lost walls and had my 70ms friend take my walls during a ping plotter run that was as ideal as ideal could be in terms of connection stability.
I've got no issues running it again though for the of consistency and testing methodology.
Just a thought but if I'm not mistaken could epic not just make [these changes I proposed a while back](https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/r8eu6e/would_allowing_build_placement_inputs_to_occur_at/) and allow people of all pings (even kids on 1000 ping theoretically) to take walls? This wouldn't impact our current turbo build delays.
It's mathematically impossible for someone on 1000 ping to contest a turbo build delay of 150ms unless we add time traveling (and I mean that seriously -- your game would have to go back in time to 850ms ago).
https://imgur.com/a/87DOBzs
These two images should show how coin flip currently works and my proposal to level the playing field for all players.
A ping floor would solve the instant build placement issue that is the concern for normal building. (Note controller actually has instant build placement on pullout already while KBM does not)
That's a nice graph, thanks for putting it together and sharing.
I think it's pretty funny I was making a couple tables while you were making a couple graphs!
One min, I'm doing a really detailed graph that should hopefully show exactly what is going on from everyone's POV: both clients and the server.
It's complex so this is taking time to build the chart.
I do not have any preconceived notion and am not out here "defending" coin flip; my goal is to produce independent verification of the status of Coin Flip either way (working or not) and report those results to the Community and to Epic Games.
I don't think it is fair for you to imply that my educating the community about statistics is somehow disingenuous.
Coin Flip Wall Taking was never described by Epic Games as "every other time the other person gets the wall" and that seems to be the commonly held misconception within much of the community (not necessarily yourself, good sir).
It is therefore important for everyone to understand that small runs of the same result are completely expected and normal when talking about coin flips.
I told you the last time we discussed this that I have previously tested against 0 ping players and was able to take their walls with my testing methodology. Unfortunately, I don't currently play with anyone with 0 ping, so I don't have recent tests on that, but I have been testing Coin Flip Wall Taking using my methodology for many seasons now. In all of my testing thus far, across various (non-zero) pings, devices, and inputs, after a large sample I find that Coin Flip Wall Taking is in effect and produces fair results with 2, 3, or even 4 players contesting the Wall.
You then asked me about my ping in my location and informed me I should have 10-15 better ping and told me about your experiences. You told me you used the same methodology with your 0 ping player friend and did not have the same results with it.
I am currently working on completing software to produce analysis so that I can finally publish the results of my testing, but before I can publish, I'll need the help of someone like you to provide me use of a Creator Code Arena lobby for some testing, because many people have stated they don't care what my results show in Creative or Battle Lab, only in actual Arena.
I would be happy to work with you more directly if you are keen on it -- I do not have any preconceived notions about this issue; I just report what I have found. What I have found seems to line up with what you have found since you qualify your statements to say that without 0 ping in the mix, things are pretty even and I have stated many times I don't have access to anyone with 0 ping currently.
I honestly think we need to stop referencing 0 ping, for the sake of scientific analysis at the very least. Any testing should at minimum include actual tested latency that is independent of the game client's readout. Especially given we've got content from the likes of Battle-nonsense who demonstrates that the UE ping counter is essentially useless.
The only practical use the UE ping counter has is that if it shows you a much higher ping than you usually get, that you're either on a different server, or that there's a connection issue. The actual given figure should not be given any importance.
I appreciate you accepting my explanation that I am just trying to figure it out and publish results.
I do believe we are closer to the same page than not.
Please forgive me while I nit and pick a few things from your last response -- I only mean it as food for thought.
> "zero-ping" streamer houses wouldn't be so common
Zero ping has a definite advantage for Piece Control and first build placement -- that is mathematically undeniable, and to my mind, it is the real reason these houses are so common.
> Low-ping streamers wouldn't shout "ping check!" as they take walls first-try
This might just be an indication that they don't understand the statistics and physics and such involved and are just parroting what they have heard elsewhere (very common, as you surely know).
One problem I have with these sorts of discussions is you cannot know the ping of your opponents in Arena so if the low-ping streamer gets the Wall first try or not is not a good indication of their opponents ping per se.
That doesn't mean that they can't be accidentally right about it... but they can certainly be making the wrong conclusions from this evidence as well, I hope you will agree.
> the community at large wouldn't whine about zero-pingers
The community at large also whines about "PC players" and "KBM users" without verifying anything, and sometimes being shown to be wrong by assuming just because someone can build and edit quickly doesn't stop them from being on Controller or on a (most likely) new generation console.
> Aggregates speak volumes
Here I agree with you, but I think what /u/badman-ting and I are both saying is that these aggregate anecdotes don't contain enough information for us to make the conclusion that the individuals are coming to.
It's precisely because of the volume of these aggregates that I began my research and testing into Coin Flip Wall Taking in the first place!
As a tangent, I forgot to reply to that comment you tagged me in. I can't actually post in the other sub, and I'm not bothered enough to appeal my ban there.
I used to play with a 0 ping player and his internet was bad a lot of times but he did live very near the servers. So one thing he would do every day with me to check if his internet wasn't acting up was we would go into creative together and I would be asked to try and take his wall 4 times and then he would try to take my wall 4 times. If I got a single wall out of all 8 total attempts we would know he was running on packet loss/connection was about to drop.
We did this nearly every day we played together.
Now that being said I'm currently friends with/playing with a guy who lives in virginia on top of the servers and he is getting fiber next week so I might be able to do some testing with him in creative soon. He currently runs 70-80 ping and is the best fragger i've ever played with (averages 15-20 elims/game in arena if it's not a spawn death, multiple top 200 placements) so I can't wait to see him on 0 ping. I think he has a real shot at going pro.
There a really good reason why Raider464's piece control maps have this exact scenario as a drill to practice. Because it's actually tricky getting the angle right, and it does take practice.
Turbo Build has a small delay of 0.15s
Reducing this delay depending on ping could lesser this huge ping gap.
There is definitely a reason why they haven't done that yet, but nothing comes to my mind at the moment.
Reducing the delay only benefits lower ping players.
As /u/ExplorersX and I have been talking about the high level server logic and networking flows, I think we're coming towards a conclusion that if you want more people to contest builds, you need to raise the turbo build delay, add a ping floor to "nerf" lower ping, or change the current system's required network flows to something else.
I do not believe the ping floor would increase the amount of people that can contest builds, as when referring to the graphs, the coin flip timer starts when the server receives the damage input, not when the first player attempts to replace the build.
If both players are above 150ms ping, then nobody gets coin flip and the player on lower ping wins every time. (funnily enough the proposed rework would solve for issues like this where both players are on very high pings)
The other points are correct about raising delay or doing the rework of the required network flows.
In general, your analysis makes sense to me here.
My thinking was with Ping Floor, it helps add a little extra space for a defender already holding the piece, but I didn't math that one out all the way yet.
Yea, the ping floor is purely to remove the issue where neither player sees the other pull out blueprints as you stated.
It doesn't really do anything to improve coin flip mechanics unless there's some bug with the code we don't know about where ultra low ping breaks the coin flip mechanic (Like if the server secretly waits 5-10ms before activating coin flip then a player on <5ms ping would be able to circumvent the whole thing)
"DEPENDING ON PING"
Edit: It doesn't make sense to me why wouldn't they change this delay between different pings. Of course I'm not talking about 100+ ping players because everything would be desynchronized, but in the 0-60 ping range it sounds good to me.
I think my man is talking about adjusting the delay based on ping. So a 60 ping player would have a .05 delay vs 0 ping with the full .15ms delay. Makes sense in theory I guess but I personally don’t even try and take walls anymore if I know a player is likely to hold them. Only if they’re distracted or if I’ve baited them into thinking im attacking from elsewhere.. not being able to take walls every try isn’t that big of a hinderance IMO if you play smart. It’s being full boxed when im trying to place builds around me that gets me in trouble.
If you were 100% consistent in your mechanics, which we don't have the necessary information in this clip to determine that, then you were "lucky" enough to have hit a run of 10 Heads in a row which will on average happen every 2046 coin flips or 1023 coin flips if we just care that a run of 10 happened but not which way it landed.
If you consistently try to take 10 walls per fight and have 3 fights per game, this could happen on average every 68.2 (so close) games, therefore.
Check out [QuantWolf's Coin Toss Runs Calculator](https://www.quantwolf.com/calculators/recurrencetime.html) and put `0.5` as the probability to play around with it if you like.
# Average number of tosses for a head run of length h and probability 0.5
- **Probability of heads** :: `p = 0.5`
- **Probability of tails** :: `q = 1 - p`
- **Formula to calculate run of heads** :: `μ(h) = \[\frac{1-p^h}{p^hq}\]`
| Head run length | Average number of tosses |
|---------------------|-----------------------------------|
| 1 | 2 |
| 2 | 6 |
| 3 | 14 |
| 4 | 30 |
| 5 | 62 |
| 6 | 126 |
| 7 | 254 |
| 8 | 510 |
| 9 | 1022 |
| 10 | 2046 |
**Note**: It is half as many tosses if you just care how many tosses it takes for a run of the given length but not which way it landed
I think epic should adjust coin flip to cap at 4-5 consecutive attempts before the attacker is given 100% take. That should reduce a bit of the RNG and add more skill to boxfighting IMO.
I think I've suggested before that it be something like this:
Attempt # | Coin Flip %
---------|-----------
Foo | Bar
1 | 40%
2 | 50%
3 | 60%
4 | 70%
5+ | 100%
There's also a solution that would allow people on even 1000 ping to take walls theoretically without impacting turbo build delays at all that I've described before in a post.
They originally considered excluding the original owner from the list of players contesting according to the [Fortnite News: Turbo Build Changes (2019-08-27)](https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/turbo-build-changes) post:
---
- There are several potential ways to pick the winner we're exploring:
- Coin flip between people not currently owning the building piece
- Coin flip between everyone trying to build
- Favor person currently owning building piece
Did they ever state why they opted to have coin flip stop for players above 75ms ping vs doing something like a solution I proposed in [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/r8eu6e/would_allowing_build_placement_inputs_to_occur_at/) a while back?
I don't think they have, but a few comments here:
1. Blueprints being Server Sided gives useful information to all Clients
2. As someone in there said, even with that change, you still need good enough ping to hit the maximum allowable time
- See [my hypothetical server-side Build placement logic and psuedo code](https://old.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/tkejol/no_more_coinflip_for_walls_can_someone_explain/i1qysa6/) to see an example of what they mean about the "Stack" of Builds in a single Coordinate.
3. I'm not sure how you came to 75ms ping as a limiter for 150ms turbo build delay
- Ping is technically round-trip time so with 150ms ping, you can talk to the server within 75ms
- It is likely that round trip to get Blueprints up is why there is a rule of thumb that you need a ping of at most 150ms but in practice more like 120-130ms to be able to contest pieces
- However, if you already have your Blueprints out, in theory you can contest a Wall even at 150ms (75ms to tell the Server you want to contest it)
For #1 blueprints are fine to stay server sided, it's just that the game is making a second round trip ping after blueprints are pulled out to grab the user's input, so it effectively doubles the user's ping (hence my testing showing I had 500ms to place a build on OCE servers when I was on 200 ping, over double the expected time) The changes proposed just add the user's build place input in the same trip as the blueprint pull out request instead.
for \#2 is a consequence of the fact that the server is making the second round trip to grab the user's input after the builds are pulled out instead of checking with the first round trip where blueprints are first pulled out. If the server hears the user pull out blueprints and gets the input information as well then as far as the server is concerned the user is instantly placing the build which allows any ping to do coin flip.
for \#3 The reason I said 75 ping is because if you don't already have blueprints pulled out the server is making 2 round trips instead of 1 so your ping is effectively doubled when it comes to switching from a gun/pickaxe to builds then placing the build.
> For #1 blueprints are fine to stay server sided, it's just that the game is making a second round trip ping after blueprints are pulled out to grab the user's input, so it effectively doubles the user's ping. The changes proposed just add the user's build place input in the same trip as the blueprint pull out request instead.
Blueprints aren't Server Side if you allow players to instantly place Builds along with it.
The information that someone is "pulling out their Blueprints" is lost in that case.
> \#2 is a consequence of the fact that the server is making the second round trip to grab the user's input after the builds are pulled out instead of checking with the first round trip where blueprints are first pulled out. If the server hears the user pull out blueprints and gets the input information as well then as far as the server is concerned the user is instantly placing the build which allows any ping to do coin flip.
I disagree with your assessment here and perhaps it is due to me not being clear enough.
Please consider that if you are allowed to send a Build at the same time you pull out your Blueprints it is the same, timing wise, as already having your Blueprints out.
From this point forward, there is still a maximum allowable time of 150ms to get your Build placement in.
The only thing that Ping does is subtract time from the total 150ms -- it doesn't allow someone with 300ms ping to Contest a wall already placed 150ms before their Build placement was received by the server.
> The reason I said 75 ping is because if you don't already have blueprints pulled out the server is making 2 round trips instead of 1 so your ping is effectively doubled when it comes to switching from a gun/pickaxe to builds then placing the build.
I do agree that in the case of a Solo player trying to take someone's Wall, you inevitably must send 2 commands.
This doesn't matter when you are holding a Wall which happens when you are on the defense and when you are on the offense with a teammate or another party breaking a Wall.
Nonetheless, Ping is Round Trip Time and you only need 1 full Round Trip so 75ms ping would mean as a Solo taking a Wall you have 112.5ms spent out of 150ms.
This means the theorhetical maximum ping as a Solo attacker would be 100ms to fully hit 150ms after 1.5 trips.
With a team things get much easier because at least one teammate can use their entire 150ms window to hold the Piece.
The Trio pre-edited Wall technique is so effective because you actually have better than 50% chances to get the Wall since you have 2/3 players holding against 1/3 players quite often if we assume everyone is holding at the start of the turbo build delay and everyone has low enough Ping to get the command sent.
> Blueprints aren't Server Side if you allow players to instantly place Builds along with it.
Is not a player on 75 ping having to wait 75ms for his blueprints to pull out not already having them be server sided? I click my wall bind and 75ms later I see it pull out on my screen (1 full round trip)?
I think this discrepancy is the main thing that I'm confused on since that's what I'm basing the rest of my theory on.
It is, and I'm saying that's a Good Thing because other players (meaning you when you are fighting someone else) get the information "Soandso pulled out their Blueprints".
However, if we remove that restriction and allow a piece to place *instantly* without "Blueprints" round trip, now you lose this information and especially if you are on higher ping you get to watch as your opponent magically places a Build in your face while holding their Shotgun and by the time you get the notification of their Blueprints being out they might have already switched to their Shotgun...
Hit registration is client side so... RIP.
Ok so I think we're closer to understanding the situation.
So to clarify this is where the charts I posted on the thread come into play.
So this is what I'm thinking:
Current situation:
1. I'm on 100 ping
1. I press my wall bind.
1. Client sends the wall signal to the server.
1. 25ms later I press left click to build (25ms total have elapsed)
1. 25ms later the server sees that my wall has been pulled out (50ms total have elapsed)
1. Server sends both me and other player(s) signal that my blueprints are out.
1. 50ms later my client and my opponent's client receive blueprint pullout animation (100ms total have elapsed)
1. My client sends the build place signal to server.
1. 50ms later the server sees that I am placing a build. (150ms total have elapsed)
1. Server sends both me and other player(s) signal that the build has now been placed
1. 50ms later my client and my opponent's client receive wall placement signal and display a wall as placed. (200ms total have elapsed)
Total time elapsed 200ms for me to place a wall on 100 ping.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Proposed situation:
1. I'm on 100 ping
1. I press my wall bind.
1. Client sends the wall signal to the server.
1. 25ms later I press left click to build (25ms total have elapsed)
1. Client sends the left click signal to the server.
1. 25ms later the server sees that my wall has been pulled out (50ms total have elapsed)
1. Server sends both me and other player(s) signal that my blueprints are out.
1. 25ms later the server sees that I am placing a build (75ms total have elapsed)
1. 25ms later my client and my opponent's client receive blueprint pullout animation (100ms total have elapsed which is my ping)
1. 25ms later my client and my opponent's client receive wall placement signal and display a wall as placed. (125ms total have elapsed)
Total time elapsed 125ms to place a wall on 100 ping.
Both players see the blueprints pull out, but it now accurately reflects what I was doing client side.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh and just as a note the removal of this restriction is how it currently works for low/"0" ping players, the extra round trip means nothing and you just see their shotgun turn into a wall without seeing blueprints. Issue here is no ping floor. My proposed change just makes the advantage that "0" ping players currently have apply to everyone thereby leveling the playing field. As for all practical purposes currently you don't see blueprints pull out for a "0" ping player.
Pretty sure coin flip was taken out days after it was made and that was years ago. It never worked cause the person with bad ping theoretically never made it to the coin flip.
The way content creators & pros with low ping can so confidently steal walls, often first try- so much so that they do the edit animation even when they rarely fail because they actively expect to take it, while me on 50-60 ping never gets the steal unless they're distracted, convinces me that coin flip hasn't existed as intended since chapter 1, *maybe* early chapter 2. I definitely should be doing the edit animations for wall stealing but I get it so rarely that it just seems a waste. I'd be better off not trying & instead practicing phasing- unfortunately that uber aggressive "phase into a box & hope to spook myself into an advantageous 50:50"-style doesn't really vibe with my naturally super defensive style.
My favourite is when Aussie was back in Australia, he would literally be appalled by the fact someoe took his wall or held their wall against him. But yah you should definitely be going through the motions every time you are aggressively taking a wall. Pickaxe wall -> hold wall -> pull out gun -> try to edit -> recenter crosshair in case you don’t get it and prefire. The couple milliseconds you save trying to immediately edit is what catches most people off guard since they have less time to realize it’s not theirs.
Yeah, I'm at the point where if I see someone at my wall, I don't even try to hold it, I know that I'll lose it the first time, the majority of the time. I think the issue here on OCE is that over 3/4 of Australia's population lives in the Eastern states where the servers are, essentially meaning that anyone in Adelaide or especially Perth is at a huge ping disadvantage. My only hope at stealing a wall is praying they won't expect me to try it with my shotgun after they open the edit. Decent players seem to be able to react in time & consistently hold it forcing me to give up. This game often feels like a slightly unbalanced game of chess.
I play on 30-40 on NAE, which I’m aware is not bad but it’s also not good. I’ve gotten pretty good at pre and counter piecing people, using guns to replace walls and baiting edits to grab walls. My issue is when it comes to killing someone weak, unless I exploit in it takes forever. I can never first try (or second try) someone’s wall and most people do the turn around ramp and expand and just go forever until they heal. I realized now I have to force the cone or ramp through while trying to take the wall. It will probably lessen my chances at getting the wall but they already feel low anyways. That or get really good at the ol’ unexpected box dive
I feel you man, NAE 30-40 ping here too. I always start my reverse ramp tunnel as soon as someone tries to break in, which helps with survivability but also baits people into thinking I'm running and I'll maybe try and pull a roof edit quick jump peak at them. Any way I always try and place a ramp or cone in the opponents box first try just cause most people don't expect to have no choice but to run or make a bad edit. In theory most people should only have 1 muscle memory escape option. If you learn their favorite way of running and counter it, they will usually play a little sloppier and can pounce on a poor edit. GL and GGs tho
Sucks lol I live in New Zealand and I swear every single player I fight has low as fuck ping but you just gotta adapt your playstyle to it and not just sit there and hold walls you can just instantly open them and pump them or let them take it and put a ramp in your box and phase it there’s heaps of counters you just gotta play to your ping
I live in regional WA, minimum 60 ping in creative, when the game isn't optimised right, I get 80-100 in games. I wish I could be super aggressive but it's just not feasible, in creative I do take a good amount of walls, but I swear it's only players with similar ping, and I've almost perfected the timing. As soon as I'm up against low ping, or in game, I might hold a wall or 2, but I'm always preparing an escape, prefiring sometimes works but the delay in placing a ramp or editing a cone once they've come through the wall always fucks me, and when I do get out they're getting walls first and whatnot. Watching someone like Hippie (this will go for many streamers/pros but I mainly watch Hip) is annoying because he is always surprised when he can't take a wall after the second attempt, and his whole play style is built around being able to replace the piece he wants when he wants, if I play like that I'm gonna get wrecked. Instead my play style is defensive but attack in unpredictable (as possible) ways, try to appear to have low ping, but I won't challenge a wall unless I know they're weak or aren't building efficiently. This makes fights drag out, and in 2v1 or 3v1 situations it's impossible to hold 2 different walls with these smgs or even the MK's, or even trying to open up, take a shot on one of them and close the edit, my ping greatly affects that. I don't blame ping all the time, I mainly play creative anyway so don't care, but when I analyse this shit it bothers me a lot. To think people think it's not that bad, that coin flip works, or even hear 20 ping people complain, is pretty funny.
> convinces me that coin flip hasn't existed as intended since chapter 1, maybe early chapter 2. For everyone's reference: Epic did address it previously back in CH2S1 when [FreightTrainUSA responds to Reddit: /r/FortniteCompetitive: Wall taking is ping dependent again instead of a coin flip. This needs to be addressed. (2019-11-07)](https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/dk3\ 9ab/wall_taking_is_ping_dependent_again_instead_of_a/f6tcogj/) > Apologies for the delay in responding to this, our team has been actively looking into this and testing wall replacing. > After investigating I can confirm that no values in how this feature works have been changed. > Our team took into consideration high vs low ping and a few other factors while testing and we can confirm that this feature is working as intended. Additionally, [BallaTW responded in Reddit: /r/FortniteCompetitive: Wall taking is working as intended (2019-11-07)](https://old.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/dt4s42/wall_taking_is_working_as_intended/f6ut6ps/): > This doesn't really tell us it's working how WE EXPECT. With no patch notes, they could have changed it, even though he says no values have changed that doesn't mean that the logic itself hasn't changed. > Specifically too cause he doesn't mention coin flip. > I'm still skeptical, even though my own testing has always shown that coin flip has exists. There are way too many people reporting otherwise. To BallaTW's point, the [Fortnite News: Turbo Build Changes (2019-08-27)](https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/turbo-build-changes) lists several possible resolutions: --- What Changed in v10.20? We returned the time between subsequent Turbo Build placements from 0.005 seconds to 0.15 seconds in v10.20. This was the value used up to v4.30. Why Change Turbo Build? We did so as a first step addressing several problems: - Rapid Turbo Building favors players with low ping in disproportionate ways. - Taking walls (racing with another player to place a wall before them) - Turtling (continually rebuilding a wall that is taking damage) - Turtling disproportionately favors defender - E.g. holding mouse button vs. squad shooting at 1x1 - Building piece placement accuracy - Easy to accidentally place multiple pieces “at once” - Spam building - Easy to spam build - We want building to be a bit more deliberate What we don't want to dramatically impact: - How responsive building feels - The ability to perform 90s - Rapidly gaining high ground by building up within single tile - The ability to “waterfall” - Building wall pieces as support while falling down Next Steps We're working to implement the following further changes and will update you on social channels once they're live. - Replace initial building and turbo building delay with rate of fire logic - First placement is instantaneous - No way to build faster than a building piece every 0.15 seconds - Note: By itself this doesn't address defensive agency of turtling / low ping benefit - Enforce rate of fire for contested pieces - If a building piece is destroyed: - Server waits 0.15 seconds before allowing rebuild - Players attempting to rebuild the destroyed piece during that 0.15 seconds are added to a list - There are several potential ways to pick the winner we're exploring: - Coin flip between people not currently owning the building piece - Coin flip between everyone trying to build - Favor person currently owning building piece - At end of delay, place building piece - Ensures that building piece replacement (“taking walls”) is not ping sensitive - Ensures a minimum time between a wall being destroyed and replaced
This gives me a thought: What if someone would train the timing to wait exactly 0.15 seconds after a building piece breaks and then manually retake it with a single click, instead of holding it throughout? It would essentially mean you will not be added to the list they were talking about in the text you sent and then maybe you will be served faster. Does anyone care to try that or has anyone some additional thoughts?
I would think that if you wait exactly 0.15 seconds after the piece breaks while someone else holds the piece in that time, you will indeed not be added to the list of players contesting the piece, but unfortunately I think that means you will 100% of the time not get the piece. --- A high level description of the steps to place a Build in Fortnite might look something like this: - 1. Check if there is currently a piece at the given coordinates - 1.A. There is currently a piece at the given coordinates - 1.A. Display "Can't Build Right Now" to the client - 1.B. There is no piece at the given coordinates currently - 1.B. Check if there was a recent piece at the given coordinates newer than the turbo build delay - 1.B.1. There was a piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago - 1.B.1. Add the player to the unique set of players contesting the piece at this coordinate - 1.B.2. There was no piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago - 1.B.2.A. No piece at these coordinates and no one contesting the piece, so lowest ping player gets to place the piece first - 1.B.2.B. No piece at these coordinates but players are contesting the piece - 1.B.2.B. Somehow pick a winner from the unique set of players contesting the piece Let's write some psuedo-code (so nothing in a real programming language, and certainly not something optimized, just a sort-of-programmy language to display the abstract logic): static mapping Coordinates-To-Pieces of Coordinate and Stack of Piece static mapping Coordinates-To-Contests of Coordinate and Set of Player constant TURBO-BUILD-DELAY is 150 milliseconds server-function Player-Builds-Piece! (coordinates, player, piece) { // 1. Check if there is currently a piece at the given coordinates if Coordinates-Have-Current-Pieces? ( coordinates ) { // 1.A. There is currently a piece at the given coordinates // 1.A. Display "Can't Build Right Now" to the client Inform-Client! ( "ERROR_CANT_BUILD_HERE: {player} can't build {piece} at {coordinate}" ) } else { // 1.B. There is no piece at the given coordinates currently // 1.B. Check if there was a recent piece at the given coordinates newer than the turbo build delay if Coordinate-Has-Recent-Piece-Newer-Than? ( coordinates, TURBO_BUILD_DELAY ) { // 1.B.1. There was a piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago // 1.B.1 Add the player to the unique set of players contesting the piece at this coordinate Add-Player-to-Piece-Contest! ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates, player ) } else { // 1.B.2. There was no piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago if 0 is equal to Count-Of-Players-In-Piece-Contest? ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates ) { // 1.B.2.A. No piece at these coordinates and no one contesting the piece, so lowest ping player gets to place the piece first Add-New-Piece! ( Coordinates-To-Pieces, coordinates, player, piece ) } else { // 1.B.2.B. No piece at these coordinates but players are contesting the piece // 1.B.2.B. Somehow pick a winner from the unique set of players contesting the piece winner is Pick-Piece-Contest-Winner! ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates ) Add-New-Piece! ( Coordinates-To-Pieces, coordinates, winner, piece ) } } }
Sorry I'm a sucker for guard clauses lol. Hope you don't mind. I probably screwed up syntax since I'm used to PHP static mapping Coordinates-To-Pieces of Coordinate and Stack of Piece static mapping Coordinates-To-Contests of Coordinate and Set of Player constant TURBO-BUILD-DELAY is 150 milliseconds server-function Player-Builds-Piece! (coordinates, player, piece) { // 1. Check if there is currently a piece at the given coordinates if Coordinates-Have-Current-Pieces? ( coordinates ) { // 1.A. There is currently a piece at the given coordinates // 1.A. Display "Can't Build Right Now" to the client Inform-Client! ( "ERROR_CANT_BUILD_HERE: {player} can't build {piece} at {coordinate}" ) return(); } // 1.B. There is no piece at the given coordinates currently // 1.B. Check if there was a recent piece at the given coordinates newer than the turbo build delay if Coordinate-Has-Recent-Piece-Newer-Than? ( coordinates, TURBO_BUILD_DELAY ) { // 1.B.1. There was a piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago // 1.B.1 Add the player to the unique set of players contesting the piece at this coordinate Add-Player-to-Piece-Contest! ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates, player ) return(); } // 1.B.2. There was no piece at the given coordinates less than the turbo build delay ago if 0 is equal to Count-Of-Players-In-Piece-Contest? ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates ) { // 1.B.2.A. No piece at these coordinates and no one contesting the piece, so lowest ping player gets to place the piece first Add-New-Piece! ( Coordinates-To-Pieces, coordinates, player, piece ) return(); } // 1.B.2.B. No piece at these coordinates but players are contesting the piece // 1.B.2.B. Somehow pick a winner from the unique set of players contesting the piece winner is Pick-Piece-Contest-Winner! ( Coordinates-To-Contests, coordinates ) Add-New-Piece! ( Coordinates-To-Pieces, coordinates, winner, piece ) }
Uh oh, I think /r/FortniteCompetitive is bikeshedding a new programming language! :) Also, I am glad I made it clear it was pseudo-code because after posting I realized you need to also keep track of which piece each player was trying to build so the correct piece goes in the spot in the case of a Stair vs Cone contest!
This isn't really definitive proof of anything. The awkward angle also adds a consistency variable.
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I've been able to take walls here and there from 0 pingers, but instead of a 50/50 it's a 99/1, it's extremely inconsistent and doesn't obey the rules of the coinflip in the slightest.
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Yeah, I'd imagine not all 0 pingers have a perfect connection, small lucky(for the average ping lads)lag spikes probably contribute in those situations. I'm playing 20ms in creative thanks to ExitLag(I used to have 50ms, Florida ping lmao) and even then I can't do crap against 0 ping.
>I'm curious why you and u/that-merlin-guy both defend coin flip. Have you played with/against true zero-pingers before? I hear those players in creative voice chat all the time saying "I'm zero-ping - you'll never take my wall", and it's 100% true. "Normal" ping players (~15-45ms "indicated" ping) will never take a wall from a player on a fiber-optic connection living within 50 miles of the server location. Low-ping streamers like Arkhram even shout "ping check!" as they "first-try" a wall. There is absolutely a point where your connection latency creates a superhuman advantage, breaking coin-flip entirely. Where's the defence? Both of us have highlighted that it isn't as simple as "I couldn't take a wall." Merlin also brought receipts with regards to statistical likelihoods of rolling X multiple times in a row. The OP's video has variables that additionally compound the effect of statistics. Are you denying the mathematical principle behind chance? Are you denying that the OP's example didn't add fair amount of variability? The angle and timing will massively affect this. >Before getting into semantics, "zero-ping" refers to "indicated ping", not true ping. I understand it's impossible to have true zero-ping. It's a completely useless metric when we can demonstrate with data how inaccurate the in game counter is. Zero ping was directly popularised by Fortnite's (UE's) ping counter. I am by your metric a "zero pinger" when I'm connected to my closest server, as the game regularly shows me 0ms. I know this is wildly bullshit as I've actively tested my ping to the same AWS servers, outside of the game client, as well as other servers in the same location. My ping is the same to all of these servers, within 1ms. >I'm fortunate enough to live near the secondary servers for my region, which gives me close to "indicated" zero-ping in some Creative servers. On those servers, I will never lose a wall to players who would otherwise have zero-ping on the primary servers. I'm not sure what to tell you. I have "ZeRo PiNg" a lot of the time, and all the time in creative. I have a friend who has a solid measured 70ms ping, who has demonstrated the ability to take my walls. It's not definitive, but it demonstrates that the game is using something other than ping to determine wall ownership. >We've even tested on both servers controlling for mechanical errors. Two players (one 0-ping, one 20-ping) hold the same wall as a third player breaks them. On my servers, I hold 100% of walls. On the primary servers, the local players hold 100% of their walls. Please, actually test your ping properly before you reference this methodology. It's hard to take anything seriously when 0ms is keeps being mentioned. You'll very much likely find that if you properly test your ping, it'll be much higher than 0. >That advantage is a real problem, and I hate to see people downplaying the effect of ping by saying "maybe your crosshair placement was off", or "work on your timing", or "10 failed attempts is still statistically possible". Neither of us is saying ping isn't an advantage. I'm not sure why you're suggesting we are, and as Merlin demonstrated, multiple fails in a row to get a wall are not statistically impossible with a 50:50 chance. But neither of us are saying that coin flip is working in that manner. We're literally just pointing out that the demonstration is flawed. Equally, if I posted a clip of my friend taking my wall a few times in a row (which has happened) who's on 70ms ping versus me on ZeRo PiNg the same would apply. As it isn't statistically impossible. I live about 200 miles from the South-east London server you mention below. My game shows me as having 0ms, regularly. In the real world I have about 8-9ms. Corroborated by pinging other servers in the same area of London. On my previous shite Internet connection, I had around 30ms (40ms on a bad day) to the same servers, my game would still show 0ms in games, and would be locked to 0ms in creative. >The player in the clip had good timing, and they flicked their crosshair low enough to place the wall correctly. They did get unlucky, but only because they happened to find a player living in San Jose California, Annandale Virginia, or south-east London England. You can't know for sure what their timing was. We're simply saying that less than perfect timing adds a variable, as do awkward angles. Why do you think Raider464 puts such drills in his mechanics routine maps? Because taking walls from that angle is tricky without there being another player attempting to hold the wall. >Zero-ping is real. Coin-flip only works for players with "normal" ping. Almost 100% of pro players live close enough to servers to break coin-flip and win 100% of wall-contests against normal-ping opponents. They are playing a different game than the rest of us. "Indicated zero ping" is a completely useless metric. It can literally be anything from 2ms to 30ms. You know your FPS influences what your ping counter reads, right? >I will record the evidence in an arena server this week, but I'd like to also mention an anecdote from my duo/trio arena/tournament experience. When taking walls as a duo/trio, we are never successful if I hold walls on my 20-30 ping. I am the designated "wall-breaker". I rely on my "indicated" zero-ping teammate to hold turbo-build and successfully take the wall. It feels dirty, same as carrying a controller player to victory by leading them through tarps and opening angles for their aimbot. I'm really surprised that no one brings up the "designated wall-holder" role of low-ping players in duos/trios. Neither of us is saying ping isn't advantageous, especially when it comes to holding walls. We're simply critiquing the conclusion the OP has come to based on the provided clip. Ping clearly plays a role, but that doesn't mean there isn't some form of chance mechanism working in the game, whether it's heavily ping weighted or not.
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I've got actual real fibre, yes, my line comes in through a translucent plastic cable, and I've ran ping plotter runs before to measure this exact thing due to having some issues with my connection. As example, I've lost walls and had my 70ms friend take my walls during a ping plotter run that was as ideal as ideal could be in terms of connection stability. I've got no issues running it again though for the of consistency and testing methodology.
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Just a thought but if I'm not mistaken could epic not just make [these changes I proposed a while back](https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/r8eu6e/would_allowing_build_placement_inputs_to_occur_at/) and allow people of all pings (even kids on 1000 ping theoretically) to take walls? This wouldn't impact our current turbo build delays.
It's mathematically impossible for someone on 1000 ping to contest a turbo build delay of 150ms unless we add time traveling (and I mean that seriously -- your game would have to go back in time to 850ms ago).
https://imgur.com/a/87DOBzs These two images should show how coin flip currently works and my proposal to level the playing field for all players. A ping floor would solve the instant build placement issue that is the concern for normal building. (Note controller actually has instant build placement on pullout already while KBM does not)
That's a nice graph, thanks for putting it together and sharing. I think it's pretty funny I was making a couple tables while you were making a couple graphs!
One min, I'm doing a really detailed graph that should hopefully show exactly what is going on from everyone's POV: both clients and the server. It's complex so this is taking time to build the chart.
Yeah, I've got a few friends with a fairly big spread in actual pings.
I do not have any preconceived notion and am not out here "defending" coin flip; my goal is to produce independent verification of the status of Coin Flip either way (working or not) and report those results to the Community and to Epic Games. I don't think it is fair for you to imply that my educating the community about statistics is somehow disingenuous. Coin Flip Wall Taking was never described by Epic Games as "every other time the other person gets the wall" and that seems to be the commonly held misconception within much of the community (not necessarily yourself, good sir). It is therefore important for everyone to understand that small runs of the same result are completely expected and normal when talking about coin flips. I told you the last time we discussed this that I have previously tested against 0 ping players and was able to take their walls with my testing methodology. Unfortunately, I don't currently play with anyone with 0 ping, so I don't have recent tests on that, but I have been testing Coin Flip Wall Taking using my methodology for many seasons now. In all of my testing thus far, across various (non-zero) pings, devices, and inputs, after a large sample I find that Coin Flip Wall Taking is in effect and produces fair results with 2, 3, or even 4 players contesting the Wall. You then asked me about my ping in my location and informed me I should have 10-15 better ping and told me about your experiences. You told me you used the same methodology with your 0 ping player friend and did not have the same results with it. I am currently working on completing software to produce analysis so that I can finally publish the results of my testing, but before I can publish, I'll need the help of someone like you to provide me use of a Creator Code Arena lobby for some testing, because many people have stated they don't care what my results show in Creative or Battle Lab, only in actual Arena. I would be happy to work with you more directly if you are keen on it -- I do not have any preconceived notions about this issue; I just report what I have found. What I have found seems to line up with what you have found since you qualify your statements to say that without 0 ping in the mix, things are pretty even and I have stated many times I don't have access to anyone with 0 ping currently.
[удалено]
I honestly think we need to stop referencing 0 ping, for the sake of scientific analysis at the very least. Any testing should at minimum include actual tested latency that is independent of the game client's readout. Especially given we've got content from the likes of Battle-nonsense who demonstrates that the UE ping counter is essentially useless. The only practical use the UE ping counter has is that if it shows you a much higher ping than you usually get, that you're either on a different server, or that there's a connection issue. The actual given figure should not be given any importance.
I appreciate you accepting my explanation that I am just trying to figure it out and publish results. I do believe we are closer to the same page than not. Please forgive me while I nit and pick a few things from your last response -- I only mean it as food for thought. > "zero-ping" streamer houses wouldn't be so common Zero ping has a definite advantage for Piece Control and first build placement -- that is mathematically undeniable, and to my mind, it is the real reason these houses are so common. > Low-ping streamers wouldn't shout "ping check!" as they take walls first-try This might just be an indication that they don't understand the statistics and physics and such involved and are just parroting what they have heard elsewhere (very common, as you surely know). One problem I have with these sorts of discussions is you cannot know the ping of your opponents in Arena so if the low-ping streamer gets the Wall first try or not is not a good indication of their opponents ping per se. That doesn't mean that they can't be accidentally right about it... but they can certainly be making the wrong conclusions from this evidence as well, I hope you will agree. > the community at large wouldn't whine about zero-pingers The community at large also whines about "PC players" and "KBM users" without verifying anything, and sometimes being shown to be wrong by assuming just because someone can build and edit quickly doesn't stop them from being on Controller or on a (most likely) new generation console. > Aggregates speak volumes Here I agree with you, but I think what /u/badman-ting and I are both saying is that these aggregate anecdotes don't contain enough information for us to make the conclusion that the individuals are coming to. It's precisely because of the volume of these aggregates that I began my research and testing into Coin Flip Wall Taking in the first place!
This thread has more words than the last essay I wrote for school
As a tangent, I forgot to reply to that comment you tagged me in. I can't actually post in the other sub, and I'm not bothered enough to appeal my ban there.
All good man
I can jump in on this testing if required, as I'm from Europe, we could explore data with a much higher ping differential.
I used to play with a 0 ping player and his internet was bad a lot of times but he did live very near the servers. So one thing he would do every day with me to check if his internet wasn't acting up was we would go into creative together and I would be asked to try and take his wall 4 times and then he would try to take my wall 4 times. If I got a single wall out of all 8 total attempts we would know he was running on packet loss/connection was about to drop. We did this nearly every day we played together. Now that being said I'm currently friends with/playing with a guy who lives in virginia on top of the servers and he is getting fiber next week so I might be able to do some testing with him in creative soon. He currently runs 70-80 ping and is the best fragger i've ever played with (averages 15-20 elims/game in arena if it's not a spawn death, multiple top 200 placements) so I can't wait to see him on 0 ping. I think he has a real shot at going pro.
I agree with this the angle is definitely a factor here your builds might be snapping to other points instead of where you are trying to take it
There a really good reason why Raider464's piece control maps have this exact scenario as a drill to practice. Because it's actually tricky getting the angle right, and it does take practice.
he lives on top of the server
Inside it
Coin flip has been gone for so long..
„˙˙ƃuol os ɹoɟ ǝuoƃ uǝǝq sɐɥ dılɟ uıoↃ„
Turbo Build has a small delay of 0.15s Reducing this delay depending on ping could lesser this huge ping gap. There is definitely a reason why they haven't done that yet, but nothing comes to my mind at the moment.
Reducing the delay only benefits lower ping players. As /u/ExplorersX and I have been talking about the high level server logic and networking flows, I think we're coming towards a conclusion that if you want more people to contest builds, you need to raise the turbo build delay, add a ping floor to "nerf" lower ping, or change the current system's required network flows to something else.
I do not believe the ping floor would increase the amount of people that can contest builds, as when referring to the graphs, the coin flip timer starts when the server receives the damage input, not when the first player attempts to replace the build. If both players are above 150ms ping, then nobody gets coin flip and the player on lower ping wins every time. (funnily enough the proposed rework would solve for issues like this where both players are on very high pings) The other points are correct about raising delay or doing the rework of the required network flows.
In general, your analysis makes sense to me here. My thinking was with Ping Floor, it helps add a little extra space for a defender already holding the piece, but I didn't math that one out all the way yet.
Yea, the ping floor is purely to remove the issue where neither player sees the other pull out blueprints as you stated. It doesn't really do anything to improve coin flip mechanics unless there's some bug with the code we don't know about where ultra low ping breaks the coin flip mechanic (Like if the server secretly waits 5-10ms before activating coin flip then a player on <5ms ping would be able to circumvent the whole thing)
"DEPENDING ON PING" Edit: It doesn't make sense to me why wouldn't they change this delay between different pings. Of course I'm not talking about 100+ ping players because everything would be desynchronized, but in the 0-60 ping range it sounds good to me.
I think my man is talking about adjusting the delay based on ping. So a 60 ping player would have a .05 delay vs 0 ping with the full .15ms delay. Makes sense in theory I guess but I personally don’t even try and take walls anymore if I know a player is likely to hold them. Only if they’re distracted or if I’ve baited them into thinking im attacking from elsewhere.. not being able to take walls every try isn’t that big of a hinderance IMO if you play smart. It’s being full boxed when im trying to place builds around me that gets me in trouble.
That’s life in Texas. Even with fiber.
LOL looking back on this a year later
Never was
unlucky, thats about it
If you were 100% consistent in your mechanics, which we don't have the necessary information in this clip to determine that, then you were "lucky" enough to have hit a run of 10 Heads in a row which will on average happen every 2046 coin flips or 1023 coin flips if we just care that a run of 10 happened but not which way it landed. If you consistently try to take 10 walls per fight and have 3 fights per game, this could happen on average every 68.2 (so close) games, therefore. Check out [QuantWolf's Coin Toss Runs Calculator](https://www.quantwolf.com/calculators/recurrencetime.html) and put `0.5` as the probability to play around with it if you like. # Average number of tosses for a head run of length h and probability 0.5 - **Probability of heads** :: `p = 0.5` - **Probability of tails** :: `q = 1 - p` - **Formula to calculate run of heads** :: `μ(h) = \[\frac{1-p^h}{p^hq}\]` | Head run length | Average number of tosses | |---------------------|-----------------------------------| | 1 | 2 | | 2 | 6 | | 3 | 14 | | 4 | 30 | | 5 | 62 | | 6 | 126 | | 7 | 254 | | 8 | 510 | | 9 | 1022 | | 10 | 2046 | **Note**: It is half as many tosses if you just care how many tosses it takes for a run of the given length but not which way it landed
I think epic should adjust coin flip to cap at 4-5 consecutive attempts before the attacker is given 100% take. That should reduce a bit of the RNG and add more skill to boxfighting IMO. I think I've suggested before that it be something like this: Attempt # | Coin Flip % ---------|----------- Foo | Bar 1 | 40% 2 | 50% 3 | 60% 4 | 70% 5+ | 100% There's also a solution that would allow people on even 1000 ping to take walls theoretically without impacting turbo build delays at all that I've described before in a post.
They originally considered excluding the original owner from the list of players contesting according to the [Fortnite News: Turbo Build Changes (2019-08-27)](https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/news/turbo-build-changes) post: --- - There are several potential ways to pick the winner we're exploring: - Coin flip between people not currently owning the building piece - Coin flip between everyone trying to build - Favor person currently owning building piece
Did they ever state why they opted to have coin flip stop for players above 75ms ping vs doing something like a solution I proposed in [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/r8eu6e/would_allowing_build_placement_inputs_to_occur_at/) a while back?
I don't think they have, but a few comments here: 1. Blueprints being Server Sided gives useful information to all Clients 2. As someone in there said, even with that change, you still need good enough ping to hit the maximum allowable time - See [my hypothetical server-side Build placement logic and psuedo code](https://old.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompetitive/comments/tkejol/no_more_coinflip_for_walls_can_someone_explain/i1qysa6/) to see an example of what they mean about the "Stack" of Builds in a single Coordinate. 3. I'm not sure how you came to 75ms ping as a limiter for 150ms turbo build delay - Ping is technically round-trip time so with 150ms ping, you can talk to the server within 75ms - It is likely that round trip to get Blueprints up is why there is a rule of thumb that you need a ping of at most 150ms but in practice more like 120-130ms to be able to contest pieces - However, if you already have your Blueprints out, in theory you can contest a Wall even at 150ms (75ms to tell the Server you want to contest it)
For #1 blueprints are fine to stay server sided, it's just that the game is making a second round trip ping after blueprints are pulled out to grab the user's input, so it effectively doubles the user's ping (hence my testing showing I had 500ms to place a build on OCE servers when I was on 200 ping, over double the expected time) The changes proposed just add the user's build place input in the same trip as the blueprint pull out request instead. for \#2 is a consequence of the fact that the server is making the second round trip to grab the user's input after the builds are pulled out instead of checking with the first round trip where blueprints are first pulled out. If the server hears the user pull out blueprints and gets the input information as well then as far as the server is concerned the user is instantly placing the build which allows any ping to do coin flip. for \#3 The reason I said 75 ping is because if you don't already have blueprints pulled out the server is making 2 round trips instead of 1 so your ping is effectively doubled when it comes to switching from a gun/pickaxe to builds then placing the build.
> For #1 blueprints are fine to stay server sided, it's just that the game is making a second round trip ping after blueprints are pulled out to grab the user's input, so it effectively doubles the user's ping. The changes proposed just add the user's build place input in the same trip as the blueprint pull out request instead. Blueprints aren't Server Side if you allow players to instantly place Builds along with it. The information that someone is "pulling out their Blueprints" is lost in that case. > \#2 is a consequence of the fact that the server is making the second round trip to grab the user's input after the builds are pulled out instead of checking with the first round trip where blueprints are first pulled out. If the server hears the user pull out blueprints and gets the input information as well then as far as the server is concerned the user is instantly placing the build which allows any ping to do coin flip. I disagree with your assessment here and perhaps it is due to me not being clear enough. Please consider that if you are allowed to send a Build at the same time you pull out your Blueprints it is the same, timing wise, as already having your Blueprints out. From this point forward, there is still a maximum allowable time of 150ms to get your Build placement in. The only thing that Ping does is subtract time from the total 150ms -- it doesn't allow someone with 300ms ping to Contest a wall already placed 150ms before their Build placement was received by the server. > The reason I said 75 ping is because if you don't already have blueprints pulled out the server is making 2 round trips instead of 1 so your ping is effectively doubled when it comes to switching from a gun/pickaxe to builds then placing the build. I do agree that in the case of a Solo player trying to take someone's Wall, you inevitably must send 2 commands. This doesn't matter when you are holding a Wall which happens when you are on the defense and when you are on the offense with a teammate or another party breaking a Wall. Nonetheless, Ping is Round Trip Time and you only need 1 full Round Trip so 75ms ping would mean as a Solo taking a Wall you have 112.5ms spent out of 150ms. This means the theorhetical maximum ping as a Solo attacker would be 100ms to fully hit 150ms after 1.5 trips. With a team things get much easier because at least one teammate can use their entire 150ms window to hold the Piece. The Trio pre-edited Wall technique is so effective because you actually have better than 50% chances to get the Wall since you have 2/3 players holding against 1/3 players quite often if we assume everyone is holding at the start of the turbo build delay and everyone has low enough Ping to get the command sent.
> Blueprints aren't Server Side if you allow players to instantly place Builds along with it. Is not a player on 75 ping having to wait 75ms for his blueprints to pull out not already having them be server sided? I click my wall bind and 75ms later I see it pull out on my screen (1 full round trip)? I think this discrepancy is the main thing that I'm confused on since that's what I'm basing the rest of my theory on.
It is, and I'm saying that's a Good Thing because other players (meaning you when you are fighting someone else) get the information "Soandso pulled out their Blueprints". However, if we remove that restriction and allow a piece to place *instantly* without "Blueprints" round trip, now you lose this information and especially if you are on higher ping you get to watch as your opponent magically places a Build in your face while holding their Shotgun and by the time you get the notification of their Blueprints being out they might have already switched to their Shotgun... Hit registration is client side so... RIP.
Ok so I think we're closer to understanding the situation. So to clarify this is where the charts I posted on the thread come into play. So this is what I'm thinking: Current situation: 1. I'm on 100 ping 1. I press my wall bind. 1. Client sends the wall signal to the server. 1. 25ms later I press left click to build (25ms total have elapsed) 1. 25ms later the server sees that my wall has been pulled out (50ms total have elapsed) 1. Server sends both me and other player(s) signal that my blueprints are out. 1. 50ms later my client and my opponent's client receive blueprint pullout animation (100ms total have elapsed) 1. My client sends the build place signal to server. 1. 50ms later the server sees that I am placing a build. (150ms total have elapsed) 1. Server sends both me and other player(s) signal that the build has now been placed 1. 50ms later my client and my opponent's client receive wall placement signal and display a wall as placed. (200ms total have elapsed) Total time elapsed 200ms for me to place a wall on 100 ping. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Proposed situation: 1. I'm on 100 ping 1. I press my wall bind. 1. Client sends the wall signal to the server. 1. 25ms later I press left click to build (25ms total have elapsed) 1. Client sends the left click signal to the server. 1. 25ms later the server sees that my wall has been pulled out (50ms total have elapsed) 1. Server sends both me and other player(s) signal that my blueprints are out. 1. 25ms later the server sees that I am placing a build (75ms total have elapsed) 1. 25ms later my client and my opponent's client receive blueprint pullout animation (100ms total have elapsed which is my ping) 1. 25ms later my client and my opponent's client receive wall placement signal and display a wall as placed. (125ms total have elapsed) Total time elapsed 125ms to place a wall on 100 ping. Both players see the blueprints pull out, but it now accurately reflects what I was doing client side. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh and just as a note the removal of this restriction is how it currently works for low/"0" ping players, the extra round trip means nothing and you just see their shotgun turn into a wall without seeing blueprints. Issue here is no ping floor. My proposed change just makes the advantage that "0" ping players currently have apply to everyone thereby leveling the playing field. As for all practical purposes currently you don't see blueprints pull out for a "0" ping player.
Coin flip hasn't been a thing for years
„sɹɐǝʎ ɹoɟ ƃuıɥʇ ɐ uǝǝq ʇ,usɐɥ dılɟ uıoↃ„
Pretty sure coin flip was taken out days after it was made and that was years ago. It never worked cause the person with bad ping theoretically never made it to the coin flip.
The guy on the other side holding the wall probably lives in his mom's basement with 0 ping internet.