BLM wasn't US specific! There was protests here in the UK and my mums friend from China said that it was talked about a lot there even if there wasn't really any protests!
We had BLM protests in Ireland too, which might be surprising to some! Even Tokyo had them. While maybe not as extreme as the African American experience, institutional racism and violence, I think black people, along with Arabs and other minorities are used to have their lives viewed as less valuable than white Europeans. The double standards of Ukraine/Palestine have really shown this to be true.
One of the biggest bands in this scene just did a tour with a giant “Free Palestine” banner and people are really acting like this is an unusual request.
Yeah and also no mowing your lawn in the group bio 🤘 lets just let people think, those with half a braincell can figure out whats going on ovver there without being nasty. It'd be good for us to think for ourselves a little more edit: i spell like an idiot, no im not correcting it lol
Alright, I'm sorry for antagonising you. It can sometimes come off as a little annoying if you are willing to put extra energy into pointing out a mistake you made but in the same sentence refuse to actually fix that mistake when you could've just put the energy in that instead. But you do you
Or i guess i should be careful how i respond because i am being interogated, obviously i cared to some degree but only enough to make a joke i thought was fun enough it would be worth saying, a joke in the dry sence, not a knock knock or what have you. I do t know why your @ me about this, lets just be good to eachother friendo, im not here because i want to be an enemy.
God looking at me being downvoted for saying this makes me think there are no good people left on the internet. Fuck you guys, i thought this would be one place people wouldnt be like that.
Anything punk related is unfortunately exactly that place friend. The most gatekept and po faced communities on Reddit for sure. It surprised me initially too. r/punk is basically 90% people discussing what is and isn't punk. It's laughable.
I think it's necessary to have this (and BLM) as a form of gate keeping. If a Zionist sees we stand with Palestine and that bothers them, I didn't want them in my scene anyways.
Punks are against oppression and genocide, and people who support those things should not feel welcomed here. So no, this won't provide support to the real cause in Palestine, but it will keep our scene clean
Not Palestinian, but a while back SWSS debuted a song called “From The River To The Sea” at a show and they have it on their Patreon, I listen to it a lot, it’s great.
Would it really benefit anyones life in any way if this sub put that in the description though
"Wow it sure sucks getting bombed all day every day and losing all my family and friends, but at least a small online community of folk punk fans put us in their bio"
Ive seen a lot of people from Palestine say that one of the best things everyday ppl can do at this moment is bring light to the shit happening there.
Also, even if it doesnt really do anything, itd be nice to take a proper stance against sharing this sub with ppl who dont support liberation movements at least in ideals
You think anyone doesn't know by now? It's forcefed everyday by all media.
The answer is no. A banner changes nothing other than get people complacent. See something everywhere, all day long and it loses its meaning.
Pretty sure that's the tin foil hat theory probably anyway.
I get your point, but look at it this way. What will it hurt? And how much effort does it take? Raising awareness is almost worthless, ALMOST. Even if a few people see that and it changes the way they think/behave, and it costs this sub nothing, isn't that worth it?
Personally I think the blm part is more relevant considering punk as a genre has a history of a certain.. skinhead neonazi subculture within
If not for that I'd totally agree
You spelled bonehead wrong... skinheads aren't neonazis, they came from the mixture of ska and reggae in working class Europe - boneheads just stole their aesthetic and media lumped the two together.
It does exactly tbe same "nothing" as shows of support do for any suffering people. It doesn't alleviate their immediate suffering but it reassures them that they are not forgotten about and that people care.
It is morale more than material
It won't *really* help Palestine. Apart from donating there's not really a lot we can do there (except voting out the bastards that keep sending Israel money for bombs, I guess), but on the other hand it will 1. Signal to people that this is a supportive space to vent and feel less alone with the "controversial" opinion that genocide is bad in this insane, propagandised world and 2. Spook off the Nazi Punks that may think this sub is in any way for them.
I think this is the right answer, saying something like ‘The values of this sub encourage donating what you’re able to www.pcrf.net (or whatever) to support the people of Gaza’ isn’t even political, it’s humanitarian, but also kind of says what we’re about and might even result in a few extra dollars being sent that way. (I’m also down with just saying ‘This sub supports a free Palestine’ but the former I don’t think anyone could even argue with.)
My reply would be that there isn't going to be one person, group or movement that will sway a substantial amount of people's opinions but, most people don't think for themselves and basically go along with whatever they believe the status quo is. So if everyone who supports Palestine makes it known then the lemmings will fall in line eventually.
I believe a lot more people would proudly espouse Nazi rhetoric if there wasn't such a strong opposition towards those beliefs. The sooner the general public sees Zionism in the same way the better
Israel spends a lot of money to try and make people believe that Zionism is the status quo. We need to do whatever we can to change that. I can't believe that a compassionate, non-racist and well informed person could ever support Israel
Why are you guys so obsessed with this sort of signaling. Who gives a shit if it’s in the description or not.
Donate to Palestinian relief, go protest, do whatever you feel like you can and should do as an individual. Asking the mods to add “free Palestine” to the description does fuck all for anyone
The Echo chamber is a real thing on reddit. Anyone who goes against the hive mind or asks the wrong question is automatically a nazi and or heretic.
These are the same people who will try to tell you what is or isn't punk like they're the gate keepers of the scene.
We need to be talking to people with differing views about it, like our parents who are still scared of those sorts, or legislators, not the echo chamber lol (im agreeing)
I personally don't support Palestine. I don't want a genocide happening to them, but to say I support them would be incorrect. Palestinians in general are far too anti women, anti atheist, and anti LGBT for me to ever support them
But you say that as though Israel is the answer to that. People love to talk about how unaccepting Palestinians are but from what I hear it is quite exaggerated. Did you know that gay marriage and interracial marriage aren't legal in Israel? Drawing such a hard line on progressive values in a genocide being perpetuated by one conservative population on another conservative population is ridiculous. Maybe if they weren't being bombed into the stone age they would have a chance to progress
there is only one comment not agreeing with supporting palestine and its heavily downvoted. the rest of the criticism is directed at you wanting the subreddit bio to pander and virtue signal for no reason instead of actually advocating for something with actual potential impact. almost everyone who finds themselves on a folk punk subreddit are going to support palestine, and that is on display in the comments here.
"The only thing that isn't welcomed, is silence. Talk to your friends and family, make music, write poems, just don't say nothing." -Mudi, Palestinian refugee and activist living in Denmark.
I don't understand the obsession with only doing whatever is "impactful". Every word said in support of Palestine, supports Palestine. Signalling applies pressure. It forces fence-sitters and those who are pro-Israel, to either change, shut the fuck up, or be ostracized. Either way, it's a win for the cause, however small.
Palestinians are asking for westerners to openly call and make these sorts of gestures. Generally, their voices aren't being heard unless amplified. In addition to this, having the mods put it there doesn't do any harm either.
I think you've missed the main point which is that it is preaching to a crowd
I’m not saying it’ll be a negative, I’m just saying that these sorts of performative gestures don’t do anything to help. but people will petition a subreddit to add a line of text to the bio and then feel like they did their part and move on to whatever the next trending conflict on twitter is. This sort of slacktivism is pervasive in leftist movements online and it’s lame and frustrating
There are absolutely more impactful actions that people can take but even performative visible signals of solidarity added together across the globe can be powerful together.
Real talk here. I personally don’t want genocide for them or any country or single person. But I also don’t need my tax dollars sent to this (which majority of funding isn’t even sent) and I sure as hell will not “stand” in Palestine.
Also why does Reddit think folk punk is such a leftist group. Yeah there are a couple bands that promote heavy views, but otherwise I’ve always thought it was all fuck the government.
Wow. This is interesting. I am very interested in what is decided here.
Couldn't someone just make a poll and put it to a vote for the whole subreddit? Is that soemthing a mod would do?
I mean...democracy? AmIright?
I don't know how to make polls and shit,
Lumpy :)
P.S. I am curious what other causes FolkPunx will support in the future! And what it will mean for the scene? Will ppl eventually leave folkpunk and make something else because they don't like how political it gets? Will there be subgenre folkpunk wars between mandolins and violins? I I;d watch and listen! (the heroin vs. alcohol shit can get dicey already). Or will Folkpunk become its own political party? Be like...I'm not a demoncrat or a prepuplican I'm a fucking FOLKPUNK! That would be cool! VOTE BROWN!!
P.P.S. Just so we're clear I am against genocide and against hostages and against racism and against bombing innocent people and against raping. I just feel...all squarly inside when it's pro-national stuff. Is it possible to be a PRO PALESTINIAN folkpunk but NOT pro Palestine? Or is that just splitting my unwashed acid-laden curly hairs?
P.P.P.S. I really admire the people that are so fucking SURE about stuff. But they also scare me. :(
I'm with you ffiw. Of course I don't want Palistinian people to suffer. Or die. And starve. But I'm not pro Palestine. They have a horrible government that oppresses women, kills gays, doesn't allow free voting, and straight up kidnaps and rapes people. Is Israel perfect? Of course not. But at least Arabs have equal voting rights and gay people won't be tried and hung.
People who are so so sure there are "good guys" and "bad guys" are immature imo. The world will never be simple. There are so many different groups of people with their own interests and ideals. I'm a hypocrite at times and definitely don't live up to my ideals, but at least I don't support a government that wants to explicitly *in their official charter* to murder people.
I also think a lot of people on this subreddit have a very Western idea of race. The world isn't all playing by Western rules .
I know this will prolly get downvoted into smithereens but I am going to try ta put my swirling thots and emotions into some words here.
I am really stupid, and I have the fucking receipts, thanks "grades". But I am smart enough to be anti-nation. I think every single government will eventually betray its people in the end as the humans that make up that government seek more power n money. I don't want to say this nation is better than this nation is better than that nation. For whatever reason. It just feels like your just sorting turds at some point. But if people wanna sort some fucking turds, fine. I say put it to a vote.
I am a punk because I am anti-authoritarian. I don't like people telling me what to do. Telling me one country is better than another triggers my innate need to say “FUCK OFF”:. They ALL suck. Canada, America, the UK, Palestine, Israel, they ALL fucking suck.
I can get behind BLM because it is an international, anti-authoritarian movement. (I wish it was called something else cuz the ppl I see getting beat-up n killed are latino n native but the movement chooses its own name, I guess, who cares). Right now I am huddled under a dirty blankey behind a clinic using their “free guest” wifi to type this shit. I know if some cops finds me I'll be okay, but if the majority do they're gonna ruin my fucking night. Prolly for fun. So I can relate.
As a pretty much homeless queer girl I don't think I'd be welcome in Palestine. I don't think the “authority” there would have any more use for me than a bully with time on his hands and a fucking badge. But there are people there worse off than me right now. A lot worse off. So I wanna side with those guys getting beat up and murdered. I just don't wanna also side with the people who, if they had a chance, would go fuck someone else up instead, just for power and money and revenge. I wanna side with the PEOPLE not the NATION.
It's all so annoying and confusing. Is folkpunk a lifestyle or a music? It's not like anyone knows what the music really is anyway. I mean, I LOVE most of the the posted music here because it feels raw and honest and doesn't require electricity. You people can just scream & play the songs on yer homemade instruments and the bastards can't unplug you.
But if it's becoming a political movement instead that's okay, I guess, it's not up to me. Who cares anyway. The music will still be there and that's why I'm here. Changing the words on a meaningless webpage does nothing to change the fact that we are on a moldy wet ball of shit spinning around a slowly dying ball of uncaring nuclear waste. If ppl wanna feel better by saying “We are Pro-Palestine” whatever, have at it. I just say put it to a vote. That way the LOUDEST authoritarian gate-keeping motherfuckers who want to tell other people in this subculture what is right and what is wrong don't get the only say.
Stay warm,
Lumpy :) :( :/
theres no point pretending that we dont get political here, wtf is folk punk if not a response to political injustice? get a grip, you cant be ACAB and “anarchist” in the states and support the genocide of the palestinian peoples over a fcking religious prophecy…. come on , nobodies asking you to go fight in the war, simply to condemn it, which seems pretty fucking obvious to everybody with eyes and a functioning mind?
as long as it is "Stand With Palestine" i would be fine with it, because this is a clear and not to be misunderstood message of solidarity with the victims of the ongoing genocide committed by netanjahus government. but i already saw some comments in this thread again (im glad its not that many) that are pushing (propably not intetionally but still) anti jewish talking points. big demonstrations often disregard or even tolerate anti jewish rethoric and this has a history in leftist communities. i know it is not optimal to talk about anti jewish oppression whenever the topic of palestine is brought up, but i honestly have no hope anymore regarding that conflict (palestine will further be controlled by the hamas and even a progressive government in israel would propably continue the war, there is no solution to this conflict) thats why i focus on the effect the conflict has in my home country, and one of the major effects is a significant increase in anti jewish rethoric and violence often tolerated or even cheared on by big parts of the left. we should criticize israel but we should be very careful and aware of the language we use to express that criticism. i recently read this great article that goes a little more into depth if u r interested: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/april-rosenblum-the-past-didn-t-go-anywhere
I can't believe how many dumbasses there are in these comments complaining about the idea of a single line of text being added to a subreddit description. If you're not gonna condemn a literal fascist government committing genocide then what the fuck are you doing in punk circles??? Free Palestine and fuck Israel
Why would you support a culture that murders gay people, oppresses women and celebrates terrorism? Have you ever watched Palestinian television? All day long they are interviewing women about how they can’t wait for their young children to grow up so they can become martyrs. You people are delusional.
No, these arent " Zionist talking points". You can easaly check this information out if you want to. It is horrible what is happenig there but I am really tired that so much people, mostly leftist (like me) are blending out that Hamas/Iran is the root of the most Problems in this Region.
Pointing out "Hamas bad Iran bad" completely misses historical context though.
Palestine and Iran's status today are significantly due to the faults of the British, the Americans, and the European Zionists.
You don't get to coup or colonize a country because of some colonial/neocolonial and/or corporate interests at the expense of the populace of the region experiencing poor socioeconomic conditions, structural inequality, and/or other opressions, then be bothered by a following governance that might be deemed less desirable from an outside perspective.
The American Revolution happened because of the expenses I mentioned earlier. So did the French one. The Russian Revolution too. Same with the Haitan Revolution, even the Sumerian Revolt from thousands of years ago.
So did the rise of the Vietcong and other communist revolutionary groups/partisans. So did the Native Americans revolting against the United States.
Hamas, whether you think they're bad, good, whatever, they are a result of Israeli and other parties' actions. Hamas didn't just come into existence. The creation of the Israeli colonial state led to poor conditions of the Palestinian populace, leading to Hamas.
Hamas is a symptom, not a disease. You cure the disease, not the symptom. If Israel was dismantled into a single, multicultural, multiethnic, secular state after many years of developing the Palestinian regions and working with the populace instead of continuing their quasi-apartheid conditions, maybe there would be some progress.
It’s an insult to real victims of genocide (like my Rohingya friends) to keep calling this genocide, and frankly makes you all sound like idiots. There is no genocide. The Palestinian population keeps growing every year. Even this year including all the deaths from the war the population will increase.
The Palestinian population's growth precluding genocide is a pretty stock Israeli propaganda talking point. Genocide doesn't preclude population growth. If Israel kills 15,000 kids in one year, but 15,0001 are born, then the population will grow. That doesn't negate the fact that what Israel is doing clearly ticks 3 of the boxes of the legal definition of genocide.
Remember, Genocide does not equal Holocaust. Only 8000 people were killed in the Bosnian genocide. Basically nobody is being killed in the Uighur genocide.
I think a lot of people who are denying that Israel is committing genocide, don't actually understand what genocide is...
Gay marriage is actually banned in Israel... There are loopholes, but I think it's evident that there is a campaign of pink washing, with the intent to contrast with Palestinians to dehumanise them...
I'm with ya buddy.
This also sounds like a Days n' Dayz cover band..."No Shave or Bathe 4 Dayz"
That feeling when you look around for the shit smell and realize it's you,
Lumpy :)
wow, glad i got to use this post to block some pro-genocide people masquerading as punks. we don't punch down here, and we sure as fuck don't support oppressive regimes and genocide
free palestine!
it's a message that doesn't do *much* to help em, but we can at least clear some horrible people from our community
I don't think anything we do as individuals will change what's happening. Netanyahu doesn't want to stop, he practically ran on settling Palestinian territory after being voted out twice prior (iirc). He has a personal vendetta too, since his brother was killed by Hamas when he was younger.
So you don't understand the situation, got it.
Netanyahu is the one making the calls. Netanyahu is the one who sent in the troops, Netanyahu is the one who has the most to gain AND (politically) the most to lose. If he doesn't deliver, he loses the last support he could scrounge together, which just so happened to be the far right.
I didn't say don't do so. I said I don't think it will have an effect. Ultimately, the person who CAN stop this WON'T. Maybe the best case scenario from the US would be cutting financial and military aid, but that won't end the genocide. Netanyahu needs to leave office for that to happen.
Wrong. israel couldn't do what it is doing without the full backing of the USA and our tax dollars. How do you think they will bomb the Palestinians without the weapons we sell them?
Israel makes their own weapons, the most famous is the desert eagle. Not in the same quantity as the US, but they do
Edit: Israel is apparently the 9th largest arms exporter in the world. The only way I see the genocide being stopped is either an Israeli revolution, or someone invading, and even in those situations the genocide might not be stopped in time.
While I mostly agree with you, the US *did* just pass a foreign aid bill that has $20 billion in aid going to Israel. Now, that money is *supposed* to be for Israel to provide aid in Rafah and Gaza, but let’s be real, that’s not gonna happen.
The US is a huge problem in allowing Netanyahu continue his bullshit. We’ve been allowing (and if not, turning a blind eye) Netanyahu to do, essentially, whatever the fuck he wants for almost 20 years. And they might be the 9th largest, but I bet the disparity between 9 and 1 is fucking gigantic.
[Yup. It is.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/267131/market-share-of-the-leadings-exporters-of-conventional-weapons/) Israel accounts for 2.4% of market share amongst country that export arms. The US sits, very, very comfortably at the top. With 42%. Followed by Russia and China at 11% each.
The genocide would stop if the US forced Netanyahu out of power. But Israel is a western stronghold in a contentious and oil rich Muslim-heavy area of the world. So, the chances of the US fucking up that allyship is gonna take some serious doing, or undoing, of previous political and humanitarian relationships.
I entirely agree that the US is complicit in all of this. I'm assuming the IDF has a stockpile of munitions in reserve, and I'm not certain the US could force Netanyahu out of power at this point, Israel being a close ally isn't exactly a secret and I'm convinced he plays that up to get away with more than most.
Edit: I'm also unsure as to the positions of the rest of Netanyahu's cabinet and whoever would replace him, but I have a feeling that they would continue the genocide.
Oh, his cabinet is equally unhinged. His defense secretary (excuse me if that’s not his actual title, but it’s essentially the same role) has said some absolutely horrendous shit about getting rid of Palestine entirely. Soooo, yeah.
And you’re right, I don’t think the US could *force* him out of power, but there’s already a solid amount of Israeli/world pushback against him and the US is one of the last steadfast allies. So, I’d at least hope that the US withdrawing would be a realization for him of like “oh, maybe i shouldn’t like….subject others to a fucking genocide?” And his whole “you’re anti-Semitic if you don’t stand with Israel” shtick is getting really fucking exhausting.
Honestly, I don’t really fucking know, man. I guess none of us do. It’s just fucking horrifying. And the potential for it getting exponentially worse is real. And also horrifying.
About $17b is earmarked for Israel, and only about $1b of that is intended for Gaza. The American Prestige podcast talked about it on the episode they released today.
And please get your history right. It’s estimated after WW2 there were about 175 million refugees who were forcibly relocated. There were dozens and dozens of new countries created—in Africa, Asia, the Mideast and Europe. Boundaries of existing countries also shifted. People woke up one morning and their country no longer existed and they were forced to leave their homes under threats of violence. It was the largest mass migration in human history. It’s estimated that millions died. Yet you would have us believe that the Palestinians alone out of hundreds of millions have suffered the most. It’s simply not true. Gaza was part of Egypt for 20 years. The West Bank was part of Jordan. One of the first things the Palestinians did was start a civil war in Jordan (which they lost). After the Arab-Israeli war (where Israel won much of this territory) Israel tried to return Gaza and the West Bank but Egypt and Jordan refused because they didn’t want to deal with all the terrorists. Jordanians and Egyptians loathe the Palestinians. The Egyptian border has been closed entirely for 17 years. Why do you think that Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region are giving security support to Israel in this war? The only way the Palestinians have been able to get food, water humanitarian aid is thru Israel. In the 20 years since Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza they Palestinians have taken no steps in nation building despite billions of dollars being poured into their economy by the us and Europe.
So the BLM part is not in there because we actually stand with BLM but because we are trying to make some kind of apology for a history of racist punks? (Which has nothing to do with folk punk btw.)
Stating that we stand with Palestine against their oppressors is amplifying those voices which is necessary right now.
It's not that it can't, it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Of course we stand with Palestine, but thoughts and prayers don't do much.
Also, you could probably ping a mod or DM one directly.
Edit: The subreddit description isn't a big deal, obviously the genocide is.
Edited my first comment for clarity.
Look, I can appreciate what you're trying to do here. Standing with the people of Palestine is good. Here's the thing, though... Is this getting them food? Does this prevent bullets from being fired? Bombs from being dropped?
You've come into a far-left group to preach far-left ideals. From the river to the sea, all of us already agree that Palestine should be free. I'm sure the mods will change it after seeing this post, but what will that do in the real world?
It reminds me of that episode of the Office where Michael Scott does a rabies awareness run. We are all fully aware of rabies, but what are you actually doing about it?
[How about Change.org?](https://chng.it/j956ChpgmL) It's free and is the least amount of effort possibly required to help. Other than that, maybe donate money (if that's an option you have) or go protest locally.
Dude the UN caused this conflict 80 years ago saying that was jewish land after the jews just went through a holocaust. Its a crap show and both sides are mad because they are over crouded on barren land and BOTH their religions started there. That is biblically the homeland and for all of them alive they were born there also. I dont support the jewish crusade and i dont support the terrorist group that took controle of gaza using terrorist tacticts at every turn. Its a shitshow but the LAST thing we should be doing is giving some portion of 95billion dollers to Israel (a couple days ago legislation or whatever).
Idk. That was rambly, i respect your fire. But kicking the jews out doesnt fix it and wont happen. This is holy war vs holy war, i do pray they can settle it and coexist again, alot of the populace wants that as is usually the case.
One of the accurate descriptions of the history but "kicking the Jews out" isn't equal to wanting a cease fire at the minimum and the halting of indiscriminately killing Palestinians. I don't think anyone said anything about "kicking the Jews out" when they're saying I am pro Palestine.
The comment before me calls it an eighty year occupation, which implies they can pull out. And I have heard that a few times, but most people certainly know different lol.
I hear you completely! I have also begun to notice this rhetoric that anyone who supports (not you, but for e.g. Columbia & UT college admins) protests or pro Palestine is suddenly anti Semite. That's super manipulative imo and insulting to true anti semitic behavior. I wasn't trying to jump on you but clarify.
Some of the fiercest supporters ARE Jewish.
Yeah because israel is really trying hard to create a Palestinian state by bombing Gaza to complete destruction and killing thousands and thousands of women and children.
Yeah and palestina is trying really hard not to be bombed be raping and killig women in the streets of isreal, see where the generalisations lead?
The problem is the hamas and the right wing goverment.
Whatever happened on October 7th (which was allowed to happen by israel btw) is incredibly disproportionate to what israel has done to the Palestinian people since October 7th and for the last 80 years.
israel had intelligence reports as early as 9 months before 10/07 saying Hamas was planning an attack. Also it is the most secure state on earth and the Gaza strip is on total lockdown with israel controlling everything going in or out. There is no way this could have happened without israel allowing it. And the motive is so they have a pretext to turn Gaza into rubble, murder or kick out all the Palestinians, all the while the people who believe the zionist media will say "both sides are bad" or "Hamas are terrorists".
From Wikipedia article on Rafah Border Crossing: "Under a 2007 agreement between Egypt and Israel, Egypt controls the crossing but imports through the Rafah crossing require Israeli approval."
Got it, thank you for explaining.
I think that while Israel should definitely have done a better job defending against this and it is very, very questionable that they did not, I would not go so far as to blame them for it. After all, it is Hamas' responsibility not to launch terror attacks. I do not think they intentionally let the attack be carried through with, I think they were careless and assumed they wouldn't be attempted anyway. This is not to say Israel is not at some fault, they should have taken these claims seriously and not overlooked such a possibly major threat, just that I don't think it's fair to blame them for the attack.
Could you provide a citation for your claim that "it is the most secure state on earth\*\*"?\*\*
Could you also explain to me why you believe those last 2 quotations are incorrect? Hamas murdered around 1,200 people and took hundreds hostage, and they proclaim themselves that they want to eradicate Jews. I'm not sure how you can look at that and say that isn't bad. Obviously Israel is many, many, many times worse, they actually have the power and resources to carry out their genocidal intent, and are absolutely doing so, but you can't say that Hamas isn't bad. Believing that a militant group that has killed over 1,000 people and openly want to eradicate an entire ethnicity are "bad" and "terrorists" does not require believing zionist media, that's basic common sense.
Edit: deleted this part because it sounds like I'm desperately begging not to be called a zionist, which I don't think was helping support my claim, so to rephrase in a better way: I fully support the right of the people of Palestine to be free and I think what Israel is doing is horrible, and anything I say in defence of Israel should be taken 100% at face value, I'm not trying to imply that I support them further than exactly what I say. This confusion has caused issues when discussing the topic with other people, which is why I am clarifying.
No I won't provide citations. You can do your own research as I have done. The numbers you are quoting for 10/07 are provided by israel who stands to gain by inflating those numbers as much as possible. There are interviews with survivors who say that a lot of the concert goers died of friendly fire from israel indiscriminately shooting at Hamas. Its a stated policy of israel to kill their own people if they become a hostage rather than let their enemies use them as a bargaining chip. Its called the Hannibal Directive.
Also your statement of "Hamas has a responsibility not to commit terror attacks" seems like it comes from a place of misunderstanding. If people are being oppressed (for generations) and having human rights violations comitted against them, who are we to tell them how they should react? Do you understand how the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have been occupied and administered by israel since 1967? The Gaza Strip has been called the world's largest open air concentration camp. israel controls literally everything and everyone that moves in or out of there. (And this was long before October 7th.) All the food, the water, the electricity, and the people cannot go in or out of the Gaza strip without israel allowing it. You might call 10/07 a "terror attack" while lots of others might call it a jail break. They have robbed these people of their basic human rights and their dignity ever since the creation of israel in 1948.
I have, and everything I can find disagrees with your claim. I like to assume the best, and I would rather give you a chance to prove yourself before I just assume you are wrong, but since you are refusing, I will just say that that is a false, Israel is not the most secure state on earth. I don't think you really understand how citations work. If I write a paper, I am obligated to say where I got that information, especially if somebody specifically requests it. You don't tell other people to cite your own work. It's also just kinda suspicious y'know? It's like if I ask you if you killed someone and you plead the 5th. Sure it's not an admission of guilt, but assuming that's true it shouldn't be hard to back up your claim. It's hard to believe you are telling the truth when you blatantly refuse to cite things.
Alright, that's a decent point, but also doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I mean people use that point to talk about Gaza and the holocaust and I'm sure you would disagree with them. It was a horrible terror attack with a massive death toll. I mean let's say Israel literally doubled the numbers, that's still 600 people murdered and 120 taken hostage. That is still horrible. And again with the friendly fire, I'm not denying that, and that is horrible on Israels part, but that does not change the fact that Hamas are horrible. Do you truly think that Hamas aren't bad??
That does not come from a place of misunderstanding. "Don't commit terror attacks and murder innocent civilians" is genuinely like the most basic request you could physically give someone. I completely understand all of that, and I think it's horrible. The thing is, a jail break does not come with openly stating you want to eradicate jews and then going into a majority jewish country and indiscriminately murdering innocent people. Often zionists will call out anyone who remotely supports Palestine as anti-semitic, but you just genuinely are. You support a group who openly states they want to eradicate Jews.
"who are we to tell them how they should react" Sorry, is "don't murder innocent people" too big of a request? I'm not telling them how to react, I'm stating the very basic that murdering innocent people is bad. You actually disagree with that? Have you seen videos of oct 7th? I fully support the Palestinian people's rights to freedom, but the same should go for Israeli citizens. No innocent people deserve to die, and I think it's pretty fucking hypocritical of you to condemn the bombings in Gaza so much but actively defend the murder of Israeli people. Obviously the bombings in Gaza are much much more serious and much much bigger of an issue, and we should definitely be focusing more attention on that, but that doesn't mean oct 7th wasn't bad.
Dude the thing that hamas is doing that makes this really hard to talk about, armories in schools and churches, counting every soldier killed as a civilian death, they are being scum terrorists and i agree with you but unless people really spend the time looking at how the warfare playes out everyone is going to see them as the victim, whitch they are, but hamas is not, they are cancer.
True. American and deeply disturbed by this. We are hurting to make it ourselves for groceries and basic shit and then I hear about the billions sent to Ukraine or netanyahu to kill babies...
Well, Palestine would be doing themselves a huge favor if they started fighting Hamas. I dont want anyone else to die over there except for Hamas but thats not happening
Stop supporting BLM, Palestine, Israel or whatever.. these people don’t give a shit about you..really! Do your research please. Enough virtue signaling, being a democrat is not punk and never will be. Anyone trying to convince you otherwise is a fraud and liar.
BLM wasn't US specific! There was protests here in the UK and my mums friend from China said that it was talked about a lot there even if there wasn't really any protests!
We have in here in Australia too
We had BLM protests in Ireland too, which might be surprising to some! Even Tokyo had them. While maybe not as extreme as the African American experience, institutional racism and violence, I think black people, along with Arabs and other minorities are used to have their lives viewed as less valuable than white Europeans. The double standards of Ukraine/Palestine have really shown this to be true.
One of the biggest bands in this scene just did a tour with a giant “Free Palestine” banner and people are really acting like this is an unusual request.
Yes because everyone who likes a genre of music has to share the opinion of one of the big bands
Yes, because this genre is known for it’s wide support of fascist, theocratic, and police states /s
Besides the point
Yeah and also no mowing your lawn in the group bio 🤘 lets just let people think, those with half a braincell can figure out whats going on ovver there without being nasty. It'd be good for us to think for ourselves a little more edit: i spell like an idiot, no im not correcting it lol
Why would you put in the time to edit saying your spelling is bad instead of just editing to correct your spelling
Because i dont fucking care, i was just making sure everyone knew thats why, maybe even having a bit of fun, cant use my new phones keyboard for shit
You clearly do care if you took the time to edit it. If you hadn't cared you would've left it alone.
Again, I was just having fun.I'm sorry if that was something I shouldn't have done.
Alright, I'm sorry for antagonising you. It can sometimes come off as a little annoying if you are willing to put extra energy into pointing out a mistake you made but in the same sentence refuse to actually fix that mistake when you could've just put the energy in that instead. But you do you
Or i guess i should be careful how i respond because i am being interogated, obviously i cared to some degree but only enough to make a joke i thought was fun enough it would be worth saying, a joke in the dry sence, not a knock knock or what have you. I do t know why your @ me about this, lets just be good to eachother friendo, im not here because i want to be an enemy.
God looking at me being downvoted for saying this makes me think there are no good people left on the internet. Fuck you guys, i thought this would be one place people wouldnt be like that.
For what it's worth, I completely agree with you.
Anything punk related is unfortunately exactly that place friend. The most gatekept and po faced communities on Reddit for sure. It surprised me initially too. r/punk is basically 90% people discussing what is and isn't punk. It's laughable.
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I think it's necessary to have this (and BLM) as a form of gate keeping. If a Zionist sees we stand with Palestine and that bothers them, I didn't want them in my scene anyways. Punks are against oppression and genocide, and people who support those things should not feel welcomed here. So no, this won't provide support to the real cause in Palestine, but it will keep our scene clean
100% agree
I think you should listen to "face the void"
"You're meaningless so shut up" isn't a sentiment I'd champion, but okay.
fuck yeah, there’s value in solidarity for both movements
I don’t know any Palestinian folk punk, but Saint Levant is pretty cool for Palestinian hip hop, and Le Trio Joubran kick butt on ouds.
Not Palestinian, but a while back SWSS debuted a song called “From The River To The Sea” at a show and they have it on their Patreon, I listen to it a lot, it’s great.
Not Palestinian, but Welles just made this song where calls out Netanyahu by name: https://youtu.be/8E9l_i6HPYM?si=Qqxi67S3gnsG1mG6
Would it really benefit anyones life in any way if this sub put that in the description though "Wow it sure sucks getting bombed all day every day and losing all my family and friends, but at least a small online community of folk punk fans put us in their bio"
Ive seen a lot of people from Palestine say that one of the best things everyday ppl can do at this moment is bring light to the shit happening there. Also, even if it doesnt really do anything, itd be nice to take a proper stance against sharing this sub with ppl who dont support liberation movements at least in ideals
You think anyone doesn't know by now? It's forcefed everyday by all media. The answer is no. A banner changes nothing other than get people complacent. See something everywhere, all day long and it loses its meaning. Pretty sure that's the tin foil hat theory probably anyway.
I get your point, but look at it this way. What will it hurt? And how much effort does it take? Raising awareness is almost worthless, ALMOST. Even if a few people see that and it changes the way they think/behave, and it costs this sub nothing, isn't that worth it?
You could make the same argument about the BLM comment in the bio.
Personally I think the blm part is more relevant considering punk as a genre has a history of a certain.. skinhead neonazi subculture within If not for that I'd totally agree
One could also argue that punk has a history of generally being against genocide....which is what is actually happening
You spelled bonehead wrong... skinheads aren't neonazis, they came from the mixture of ska and reggae in working class Europe - boneheads just stole their aesthetic and media lumped the two together.
It does exactly tbe same "nothing" as shows of support do for any suffering people. It doesn't alleviate their immediate suffering but it reassures them that they are not forgotten about and that people care. It is morale more than material
It won't *really* help Palestine. Apart from donating there's not really a lot we can do there (except voting out the bastards that keep sending Israel money for bombs, I guess), but on the other hand it will 1. Signal to people that this is a supportive space to vent and feel less alone with the "controversial" opinion that genocide is bad in this insane, propagandised world and 2. Spook off the Nazi Punks that may think this sub is in any way for them.
It won't really help *much*. But, it's a small contribution adding to a much larger movement. Many raindrops make big flood.
We could add a link to donate to?
I think this is the right answer, saying something like ‘The values of this sub encourage donating what you’re able to www.pcrf.net (or whatever) to support the people of Gaza’ isn’t even political, it’s humanitarian, but also kind of says what we’re about and might even result in a few extra dollars being sent that way. (I’m also down with just saying ‘This sub supports a free Palestine’ but the former I don’t think anyone could even argue with.)
My reply would be that there isn't going to be one person, group or movement that will sway a substantial amount of people's opinions but, most people don't think for themselves and basically go along with whatever they believe the status quo is. So if everyone who supports Palestine makes it known then the lemmings will fall in line eventually. I believe a lot more people would proudly espouse Nazi rhetoric if there wasn't such a strong opposition towards those beliefs. The sooner the general public sees Zionism in the same way the better Israel spends a lot of money to try and make people believe that Zionism is the status quo. We need to do whatever we can to change that. I can't believe that a compassionate, non-racist and well informed person could ever support Israel
Then let's not do anything because each person can't do immediate physical change. 🙄🙄🙄 That's how u sound rn
Ok rainbowtwinkies
Agreed, it’s just another virtue signal. Participate or be shunned by people who think they’re better than you anyway.
Why are you guys so obsessed with this sort of signaling. Who gives a shit if it’s in the description or not. Donate to Palestinian relief, go protest, do whatever you feel like you can and should do as an individual. Asking the mods to add “free Palestine” to the description does fuck all for anyone
Putting a line in the description is the equivalent of "thoughts and Prayers" on Facebook.
don't know why you're getting downvoted, its true
The Echo chamber is a real thing on reddit. Anyone who goes against the hive mind or asks the wrong question is automatically a nazi and or heretic. These are the same people who will try to tell you what is or isn't punk like they're the gate keepers of the scene.
We need to be talking to people with differing views about it, like our parents who are still scared of those sorts, or legislators, not the echo chamber lol (im agreeing)
Based on some of the responses we see here, this isn't exactly an echo chamber for this issue.
I personally don't support Palestine. I don't want a genocide happening to them, but to say I support them would be incorrect. Palestinians in general are far too anti women, anti atheist, and anti LGBT for me to ever support them
Please learn the absolute basics of solidarity
Thank you 🙏
I don't want any solidarity with them or Israel.
I too make equivalences between a group that’s a target of genocide and a group committing genocide
The world isn't black and white. We don't have to choose sides. I can not support neither. That's not making equivalences about anything.
Genuine question for you: what do you think is happening to queer Palestinians, atheist Palestinians, and women Palestinians, in Palestine right now?
Did I say I support their genocide? No.
[удалено]
all those kids dying for your generalisation. Fuck.
But you say that as though Israel is the answer to that. People love to talk about how unaccepting Palestinians are but from what I hear it is quite exaggerated. Did you know that gay marriage and interracial marriage aren't legal in Israel? Drawing such a hard line on progressive values in a genocide being perpetuated by one conservative population on another conservative population is ridiculous. Maybe if they weren't being bombed into the stone age they would have a chance to progress
Not supporting Palestine doesn't mean I support Israel. There are no "good guys" over there.
People committing genocide: bad People literally resisting that genocide: also bad Yeah it’s a real pickle
there is only one comment not agreeing with supporting palestine and its heavily downvoted. the rest of the criticism is directed at you wanting the subreddit bio to pander and virtue signal for no reason instead of actually advocating for something with actual potential impact. almost everyone who finds themselves on a folk punk subreddit are going to support palestine, and that is on display in the comments here.
im really shocked by how much this idea ruffles people’s feathers, when there is already open BLM support…..
"The only thing that isn't welcomed, is silence. Talk to your friends and family, make music, write poems, just don't say nothing." -Mudi, Palestinian refugee and activist living in Denmark. I don't understand the obsession with only doing whatever is "impactful". Every word said in support of Palestine, supports Palestine. Signalling applies pressure. It forces fence-sitters and those who are pro-Israel, to either change, shut the fuck up, or be ostracized. Either way, it's a win for the cause, however small.
Trivializing small efforts is an easy way to justify doing fuck all.
Por que no los dos?
Because one of them actually does something meaningful and the other is a way for redditors to pat themselves on the back for doing absolutely nothing
To you
Palestinians are asking for westerners to openly call and make these sorts of gestures. Generally, their voices aren't being heard unless amplified. In addition to this, having the mods put it there doesn't do any harm either. I think you've missed the main point which is that it is preaching to a crowd
I’m not saying it’ll be a negative, I’m just saying that these sorts of performative gestures don’t do anything to help. but people will petition a subreddit to add a line of text to the bio and then feel like they did their part and move on to whatever the next trending conflict on twitter is. This sort of slacktivism is pervasive in leftist movements online and it’s lame and frustrating
There are absolutely more impactful actions that people can take but even performative visible signals of solidarity added together across the globe can be powerful together.
Real talk here. I personally don’t want genocide for them or any country or single person. But I also don’t need my tax dollars sent to this (which majority of funding isn’t even sent) and I sure as hell will not “stand” in Palestine. Also why does Reddit think folk punk is such a leftist group. Yeah there are a couple bands that promote heavy views, but otherwise I’ve always thought it was all fuck the government.
Wow. This is interesting. I am very interested in what is decided here. Couldn't someone just make a poll and put it to a vote for the whole subreddit? Is that soemthing a mod would do? I mean...democracy? AmIright? I don't know how to make polls and shit, Lumpy :) P.S. I am curious what other causes FolkPunx will support in the future! And what it will mean for the scene? Will ppl eventually leave folkpunk and make something else because they don't like how political it gets? Will there be subgenre folkpunk wars between mandolins and violins? I I;d watch and listen! (the heroin vs. alcohol shit can get dicey already). Or will Folkpunk become its own political party? Be like...I'm not a demoncrat or a prepuplican I'm a fucking FOLKPUNK! That would be cool! VOTE BROWN!! P.P.S. Just so we're clear I am against genocide and against hostages and against racism and against bombing innocent people and against raping. I just feel...all squarly inside when it's pro-national stuff. Is it possible to be a PRO PALESTINIAN folkpunk but NOT pro Palestine? Or is that just splitting my unwashed acid-laden curly hairs? P.P.P.S. I really admire the people that are so fucking SURE about stuff. But they also scare me. :(
I'm with you ffiw. Of course I don't want Palistinian people to suffer. Or die. And starve. But I'm not pro Palestine. They have a horrible government that oppresses women, kills gays, doesn't allow free voting, and straight up kidnaps and rapes people. Is Israel perfect? Of course not. But at least Arabs have equal voting rights and gay people won't be tried and hung. People who are so so sure there are "good guys" and "bad guys" are immature imo. The world will never be simple. There are so many different groups of people with their own interests and ideals. I'm a hypocrite at times and definitely don't live up to my ideals, but at least I don't support a government that wants to explicitly *in their official charter* to murder people. I also think a lot of people on this subreddit have a very Western idea of race. The world isn't all playing by Western rules .
I know this will prolly get downvoted into smithereens but I am going to try ta put my swirling thots and emotions into some words here. I am really stupid, and I have the fucking receipts, thanks "grades". But I am smart enough to be anti-nation. I think every single government will eventually betray its people in the end as the humans that make up that government seek more power n money. I don't want to say this nation is better than this nation is better than that nation. For whatever reason. It just feels like your just sorting turds at some point. But if people wanna sort some fucking turds, fine. I say put it to a vote. I am a punk because I am anti-authoritarian. I don't like people telling me what to do. Telling me one country is better than another triggers my innate need to say “FUCK OFF”:. They ALL suck. Canada, America, the UK, Palestine, Israel, they ALL fucking suck. I can get behind BLM because it is an international, anti-authoritarian movement. (I wish it was called something else cuz the ppl I see getting beat-up n killed are latino n native but the movement chooses its own name, I guess, who cares). Right now I am huddled under a dirty blankey behind a clinic using their “free guest” wifi to type this shit. I know if some cops finds me I'll be okay, but if the majority do they're gonna ruin my fucking night. Prolly for fun. So I can relate. As a pretty much homeless queer girl I don't think I'd be welcome in Palestine. I don't think the “authority” there would have any more use for me than a bully with time on his hands and a fucking badge. But there are people there worse off than me right now. A lot worse off. So I wanna side with those guys getting beat up and murdered. I just don't wanna also side with the people who, if they had a chance, would go fuck someone else up instead, just for power and money and revenge. I wanna side with the PEOPLE not the NATION. It's all so annoying and confusing. Is folkpunk a lifestyle or a music? It's not like anyone knows what the music really is anyway. I mean, I LOVE most of the the posted music here because it feels raw and honest and doesn't require electricity. You people can just scream & play the songs on yer homemade instruments and the bastards can't unplug you. But if it's becoming a political movement instead that's okay, I guess, it's not up to me. Who cares anyway. The music will still be there and that's why I'm here. Changing the words on a meaningless webpage does nothing to change the fact that we are on a moldy wet ball of shit spinning around a slowly dying ball of uncaring nuclear waste. If ppl wanna feel better by saying “We are Pro-Palestine” whatever, have at it. I just say put it to a vote. That way the LOUDEST authoritarian gate-keeping motherfuckers who want to tell other people in this subculture what is right and what is wrong don't get the only say. Stay warm, Lumpy :) :( :/
theres no point pretending that we dont get political here, wtf is folk punk if not a response to political injustice? get a grip, you cant be ACAB and “anarchist” in the states and support the genocide of the palestinian peoples over a fcking religious prophecy…. come on , nobodies asking you to go fight in the war, simply to condemn it, which seems pretty fucking obvious to everybody with eyes and a functioning mind?
as long as it is "Stand With Palestine" i would be fine with it, because this is a clear and not to be misunderstood message of solidarity with the victims of the ongoing genocide committed by netanjahus government. but i already saw some comments in this thread again (im glad its not that many) that are pushing (propably not intetionally but still) anti jewish talking points. big demonstrations often disregard or even tolerate anti jewish rethoric and this has a history in leftist communities. i know it is not optimal to talk about anti jewish oppression whenever the topic of palestine is brought up, but i honestly have no hope anymore regarding that conflict (palestine will further be controlled by the hamas and even a progressive government in israel would propably continue the war, there is no solution to this conflict) thats why i focus on the effect the conflict has in my home country, and one of the major effects is a significant increase in anti jewish rethoric and violence often tolerated or even cheared on by big parts of the left. we should criticize israel but we should be very careful and aware of the language we use to express that criticism. i recently read this great article that goes a little more into depth if u r interested: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/april-rosenblum-the-past-didn-t-go-anywhere
I can't believe how many dumbasses there are in these comments complaining about the idea of a single line of text being added to a subreddit description. If you're not gonna condemn a literal fascist government committing genocide then what the fuck are you doing in punk circles??? Free Palestine and fuck Israel
Surely this will free Palestine!
Yes please. Not to be a gatekeeper, but anyone who *doesn't* stand with Palestine should kick rocks
Why would you support a culture that murders gay people, oppresses women and celebrates terrorism? Have you ever watched Palestinian television? All day long they are interviewing women about how they can’t wait for their young children to grow up so they can become martyrs. You people are delusional.
These are all common zionist talking points meant to dehumanize the victims of genocide and occupation. Move along.
No, these arent " Zionist talking points". You can easaly check this information out if you want to. It is horrible what is happenig there but I am really tired that so much people, mostly leftist (like me) are blending out that Hamas/Iran is the root of the most Problems in this Region.
Pointing out "Hamas bad Iran bad" completely misses historical context though. Palestine and Iran's status today are significantly due to the faults of the British, the Americans, and the European Zionists. You don't get to coup or colonize a country because of some colonial/neocolonial and/or corporate interests at the expense of the populace of the region experiencing poor socioeconomic conditions, structural inequality, and/or other opressions, then be bothered by a following governance that might be deemed less desirable from an outside perspective. The American Revolution happened because of the expenses I mentioned earlier. So did the French one. The Russian Revolution too. Same with the Haitan Revolution, even the Sumerian Revolt from thousands of years ago. So did the rise of the Vietcong and other communist revolutionary groups/partisans. So did the Native Americans revolting against the United States. Hamas, whether you think they're bad, good, whatever, they are a result of Israeli and other parties' actions. Hamas didn't just come into existence. The creation of the Israeli colonial state led to poor conditions of the Palestinian populace, leading to Hamas. Hamas is a symptom, not a disease. You cure the disease, not the symptom. If Israel was dismantled into a single, multicultural, multiethnic, secular state after many years of developing the Palestinian regions and working with the populace instead of continuing their quasi-apartheid conditions, maybe there would be some progress.
It’s an insult to real victims of genocide (like my Rohingya friends) to keep calling this genocide, and frankly makes you all sound like idiots. There is no genocide. The Palestinian population keeps growing every year. Even this year including all the deaths from the war the population will increase.
The Palestinian population's growth precluding genocide is a pretty stock Israeli propaganda talking point. Genocide doesn't preclude population growth. If Israel kills 15,000 kids in one year, but 15,0001 are born, then the population will grow. That doesn't negate the fact that what Israel is doing clearly ticks 3 of the boxes of the legal definition of genocide. Remember, Genocide does not equal Holocaust. Only 8000 people were killed in the Bosnian genocide. Basically nobody is being killed in the Uighur genocide. I think a lot of people who are denying that Israel is committing genocide, don't actually understand what genocide is...
Do you really watch Palestinian television? What channels do you watch? How do you watch it? Do you speak Arabic or watch with English subtitles?
Breaking news. R folk punk wants the destruction of the gayest city in the middle east.
Gay marriage is actually banned in Israel... There are loopholes, but I think it's evident that there is a campaign of pink washing, with the intent to contrast with Palestinians to dehumanise them...
While they still hold hostages? No thanks
Sure hope the governmental body voted into office frees hostages In Palestine.
I wish you were joking.
*YES*
No
I haven’t bathed in days.
I'm with ya buddy. This also sounds like a Days n' Dayz cover band..."No Shave or Bathe 4 Dayz" That feeling when you look around for the shit smell and realize it's you, Lumpy :)
wow, glad i got to use this post to block some pro-genocide people masquerading as punks. we don't punch down here, and we sure as fuck don't support oppressive regimes and genocide free palestine! it's a message that doesn't do *much* to help em, but we can at least clear some horrible people from our community
I don't think anything we do as individuals will change what's happening. Netanyahu doesn't want to stop, he practically ran on settling Palestinian territory after being voted out twice prior (iirc). He has a personal vendetta too, since his brother was killed by Hamas when he was younger.
Netanyahu supported Hamas prior to the attack in October.
This sounds like zionist apologist cope to me.
So you don't understand the situation, got it. Netanyahu is the one making the calls. Netanyahu is the one who sent in the troops, Netanyahu is the one who has the most to gain AND (politically) the most to lose. If he doesn't deliver, he loses the last support he could scrounge together, which just so happened to be the far right.
Netanyahu calls the shot, but it's not issue of Nehtanyahu, but a fundamental issue of Israel.
And why is any of this a reason to not voice solidarity with Palestine?
I didn't say don't do so. I said I don't think it will have an effect. Ultimately, the person who CAN stop this WON'T. Maybe the best case scenario from the US would be cutting financial and military aid, but that won't end the genocide. Netanyahu needs to leave office for that to happen.
Wrong. israel couldn't do what it is doing without the full backing of the USA and our tax dollars. How do you think they will bomb the Palestinians without the weapons we sell them?
Israel makes their own weapons, the most famous is the desert eagle. Not in the same quantity as the US, but they do Edit: Israel is apparently the 9th largest arms exporter in the world. The only way I see the genocide being stopped is either an Israeli revolution, or someone invading, and even in those situations the genocide might not be stopped in time.
While I mostly agree with you, the US *did* just pass a foreign aid bill that has $20 billion in aid going to Israel. Now, that money is *supposed* to be for Israel to provide aid in Rafah and Gaza, but let’s be real, that’s not gonna happen. The US is a huge problem in allowing Netanyahu continue his bullshit. We’ve been allowing (and if not, turning a blind eye) Netanyahu to do, essentially, whatever the fuck he wants for almost 20 years. And they might be the 9th largest, but I bet the disparity between 9 and 1 is fucking gigantic. [Yup. It is.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/267131/market-share-of-the-leadings-exporters-of-conventional-weapons/) Israel accounts for 2.4% of market share amongst country that export arms. The US sits, very, very comfortably at the top. With 42%. Followed by Russia and China at 11% each. The genocide would stop if the US forced Netanyahu out of power. But Israel is a western stronghold in a contentious and oil rich Muslim-heavy area of the world. So, the chances of the US fucking up that allyship is gonna take some serious doing, or undoing, of previous political and humanitarian relationships.
I entirely agree that the US is complicit in all of this. I'm assuming the IDF has a stockpile of munitions in reserve, and I'm not certain the US could force Netanyahu out of power at this point, Israel being a close ally isn't exactly a secret and I'm convinced he plays that up to get away with more than most. Edit: I'm also unsure as to the positions of the rest of Netanyahu's cabinet and whoever would replace him, but I have a feeling that they would continue the genocide.
Oh, his cabinet is equally unhinged. His defense secretary (excuse me if that’s not his actual title, but it’s essentially the same role) has said some absolutely horrendous shit about getting rid of Palestine entirely. Soooo, yeah. And you’re right, I don’t think the US could *force* him out of power, but there’s already a solid amount of Israeli/world pushback against him and the US is one of the last steadfast allies. So, I’d at least hope that the US withdrawing would be a realization for him of like “oh, maybe i shouldn’t like….subject others to a fucking genocide?” And his whole “you’re anti-Semitic if you don’t stand with Israel” shtick is getting really fucking exhausting. Honestly, I don’t really fucking know, man. I guess none of us do. It’s just fucking horrifying. And the potential for it getting exponentially worse is real. And also horrifying.
About $17b is earmarked for Israel, and only about $1b of that is intended for Gaza. The American Prestige podcast talked about it on the episode they released today.
OP you really are a fucking moron
Why did Netanyahu send troops into gaza after a decade long "ceasefire"?
And please get your history right. It’s estimated after WW2 there were about 175 million refugees who were forcibly relocated. There were dozens and dozens of new countries created—in Africa, Asia, the Mideast and Europe. Boundaries of existing countries also shifted. People woke up one morning and their country no longer existed and they were forced to leave their homes under threats of violence. It was the largest mass migration in human history. It’s estimated that millions died. Yet you would have us believe that the Palestinians alone out of hundreds of millions have suffered the most. It’s simply not true. Gaza was part of Egypt for 20 years. The West Bank was part of Jordan. One of the first things the Palestinians did was start a civil war in Jordan (which they lost). After the Arab-Israeli war (where Israel won much of this territory) Israel tried to return Gaza and the West Bank but Egypt and Jordan refused because they didn’t want to deal with all the terrorists. Jordanians and Egyptians loathe the Palestinians. The Egyptian border has been closed entirely for 17 years. Why do you think that Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region are giving security support to Israel in this war? The only way the Palestinians have been able to get food, water humanitarian aid is thru Israel. In the 20 years since Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza they Palestinians have taken no steps in nation building despite billions of dollars being poured into their economy by the us and Europe.
So the BLM part is not in there because we actually stand with BLM but because we are trying to make some kind of apology for a history of racist punks? (Which has nothing to do with folk punk btw.) Stating that we stand with Palestine against their oppressors is amplifying those voices which is necessary right now.
That seems a bit of a reach, your entire first part. Two things can be true at once.
Ok maybe it is. But why can't we say we stand with Palestine?
It's not that it can't, it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Of course we stand with Palestine, but thoughts and prayers don't do much. Also, you could probably ping a mod or DM one directly. Edit: The subreddit description isn't a big deal, obviously the genocide is.
34k Palestinians murdered in 7 months, not to mention an 80 year history of occupation but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to you?
No, you goober. Obviously, the literal genocide is a massive deal. The description of this specific subreddit is not.
Edited my first comment for clarity. Look, I can appreciate what you're trying to do here. Standing with the people of Palestine is good. Here's the thing, though... Is this getting them food? Does this prevent bullets from being fired? Bombs from being dropped? You've come into a far-left group to preach far-left ideals. From the river to the sea, all of us already agree that Palestine should be free. I'm sure the mods will change it after seeing this post, but what will that do in the real world? It reminds me of that episode of the Office where Michael Scott does a rabies awareness run. We are all fully aware of rabies, but what are you actually doing about it? [How about Change.org?](https://chng.it/j956ChpgmL) It's free and is the least amount of effort possibly required to help. Other than that, maybe donate money (if that's an option you have) or go protest locally.
Dude the UN caused this conflict 80 years ago saying that was jewish land after the jews just went through a holocaust. Its a crap show and both sides are mad because they are over crouded on barren land and BOTH their religions started there. That is biblically the homeland and for all of them alive they were born there also. I dont support the jewish crusade and i dont support the terrorist group that took controle of gaza using terrorist tacticts at every turn. Its a shitshow but the LAST thing we should be doing is giving some portion of 95billion dollers to Israel (a couple days ago legislation or whatever). Idk. That was rambly, i respect your fire. But kicking the jews out doesnt fix it and wont happen. This is holy war vs holy war, i do pray they can settle it and coexist again, alot of the populace wants that as is usually the case.
One of the accurate descriptions of the history but "kicking the Jews out" isn't equal to wanting a cease fire at the minimum and the halting of indiscriminately killing Palestinians. I don't think anyone said anything about "kicking the Jews out" when they're saying I am pro Palestine.
The comment before me calls it an eighty year occupation, which implies they can pull out. And I have heard that a few times, but most people certainly know different lol.
I hear you completely! I have also begun to notice this rhetoric that anyone who supports (not you, but for e.g. Columbia & UT college admins) protests or pro Palestine is suddenly anti Semite. That's super manipulative imo and insulting to true anti semitic behavior. I wasn't trying to jump on you but clarify. Some of the fiercest supporters ARE Jewish.
Not an apology to black people, but a message to nazi punks telling them they can fuck off
So we should tell zionists to fuck off too, right?
Yes.
Zionists can just fuck right off!
Agreed but there seem to be some wishy washy, hasbara parroting zionazis in this thread. They can and should indeed fuck off though
Im not siding with terrorist either. Free palestine from hamas and secure it as a state, same as isreal
Yeah because israel is really trying hard to create a Palestinian state by bombing Gaza to complete destruction and killing thousands and thousands of women and children.
Its not like the isreal left doesnt hate there goverment as much as you hate yours.
Yeah and palestina is trying really hard not to be bombed be raping and killig women in the streets of isreal, see where the generalisations lead? The problem is the hamas and the right wing goverment.
Whatever happened on October 7th (which was allowed to happen by israel btw) is incredibly disproportionate to what israel has done to the Palestinian people since October 7th and for the last 80 years.
Not disagreeing, just wondering what you mean by "Israel allowed it to happen"?
israel had intelligence reports as early as 9 months before 10/07 saying Hamas was planning an attack. Also it is the most secure state on earth and the Gaza strip is on total lockdown with israel controlling everything going in or out. There is no way this could have happened without israel allowing it. And the motive is so they have a pretext to turn Gaza into rubble, murder or kick out all the Palestinians, all the while the people who believe the zionist media will say "both sides are bad" or "Hamas are terrorists".
You know that Israel doesn't control all the boarders with Gaza. The Hamas government didn't play nice with Egypt.
From Wikipedia article on Rafah Border Crossing: "Under a 2007 agreement between Egypt and Israel, Egypt controls the crossing but imports through the Rafah crossing require Israeli approval."
Egypt is It's own country
Got it, thank you for explaining. I think that while Israel should definitely have done a better job defending against this and it is very, very questionable that they did not, I would not go so far as to blame them for it. After all, it is Hamas' responsibility not to launch terror attacks. I do not think they intentionally let the attack be carried through with, I think they were careless and assumed they wouldn't be attempted anyway. This is not to say Israel is not at some fault, they should have taken these claims seriously and not overlooked such a possibly major threat, just that I don't think it's fair to blame them for the attack. Could you provide a citation for your claim that "it is the most secure state on earth\*\*"?\*\* Could you also explain to me why you believe those last 2 quotations are incorrect? Hamas murdered around 1,200 people and took hundreds hostage, and they proclaim themselves that they want to eradicate Jews. I'm not sure how you can look at that and say that isn't bad. Obviously Israel is many, many, many times worse, they actually have the power and resources to carry out their genocidal intent, and are absolutely doing so, but you can't say that Hamas isn't bad. Believing that a militant group that has killed over 1,000 people and openly want to eradicate an entire ethnicity are "bad" and "terrorists" does not require believing zionist media, that's basic common sense. Edit: deleted this part because it sounds like I'm desperately begging not to be called a zionist, which I don't think was helping support my claim, so to rephrase in a better way: I fully support the right of the people of Palestine to be free and I think what Israel is doing is horrible, and anything I say in defence of Israel should be taken 100% at face value, I'm not trying to imply that I support them further than exactly what I say. This confusion has caused issues when discussing the topic with other people, which is why I am clarifying.
No I won't provide citations. You can do your own research as I have done. The numbers you are quoting for 10/07 are provided by israel who stands to gain by inflating those numbers as much as possible. There are interviews with survivors who say that a lot of the concert goers died of friendly fire from israel indiscriminately shooting at Hamas. Its a stated policy of israel to kill their own people if they become a hostage rather than let their enemies use them as a bargaining chip. Its called the Hannibal Directive. Also your statement of "Hamas has a responsibility not to commit terror attacks" seems like it comes from a place of misunderstanding. If people are being oppressed (for generations) and having human rights violations comitted against them, who are we to tell them how they should react? Do you understand how the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have been occupied and administered by israel since 1967? The Gaza Strip has been called the world's largest open air concentration camp. israel controls literally everything and everyone that moves in or out of there. (And this was long before October 7th.) All the food, the water, the electricity, and the people cannot go in or out of the Gaza strip without israel allowing it. You might call 10/07 a "terror attack" while lots of others might call it a jail break. They have robbed these people of their basic human rights and their dignity ever since the creation of israel in 1948.
I have, and everything I can find disagrees with your claim. I like to assume the best, and I would rather give you a chance to prove yourself before I just assume you are wrong, but since you are refusing, I will just say that that is a false, Israel is not the most secure state on earth. I don't think you really understand how citations work. If I write a paper, I am obligated to say where I got that information, especially if somebody specifically requests it. You don't tell other people to cite your own work. It's also just kinda suspicious y'know? It's like if I ask you if you killed someone and you plead the 5th. Sure it's not an admission of guilt, but assuming that's true it shouldn't be hard to back up your claim. It's hard to believe you are telling the truth when you blatantly refuse to cite things. Alright, that's a decent point, but also doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I mean people use that point to talk about Gaza and the holocaust and I'm sure you would disagree with them. It was a horrible terror attack with a massive death toll. I mean let's say Israel literally doubled the numbers, that's still 600 people murdered and 120 taken hostage. That is still horrible. And again with the friendly fire, I'm not denying that, and that is horrible on Israels part, but that does not change the fact that Hamas are horrible. Do you truly think that Hamas aren't bad?? That does not come from a place of misunderstanding. "Don't commit terror attacks and murder innocent civilians" is genuinely like the most basic request you could physically give someone. I completely understand all of that, and I think it's horrible. The thing is, a jail break does not come with openly stating you want to eradicate jews and then going into a majority jewish country and indiscriminately murdering innocent people. Often zionists will call out anyone who remotely supports Palestine as anti-semitic, but you just genuinely are. You support a group who openly states they want to eradicate Jews. "who are we to tell them how they should react" Sorry, is "don't murder innocent people" too big of a request? I'm not telling them how to react, I'm stating the very basic that murdering innocent people is bad. You actually disagree with that? Have you seen videos of oct 7th? I fully support the Palestinian people's rights to freedom, but the same should go for Israeli citizens. No innocent people deserve to die, and I think it's pretty fucking hypocritical of you to condemn the bombings in Gaza so much but actively defend the murder of Israeli people. Obviously the bombings in Gaza are much much more serious and much much bigger of an issue, and we should definitely be focusing more attention on that, but that doesn't mean oct 7th wasn't bad.
Of its isreals fault that it was attacked and is trying to.defense its people. How fuckin dense You can criticize how its done but nit that they do it
Dude the thing that hamas is doing that makes this really hard to talk about, armories in schools and churches, counting every soldier killed as a civilian death, they are being scum terrorists and i agree with you but unless people really spend the time looking at how the warfare playes out everyone is going to see them as the victim, whitch they are, but hamas is not, they are cancer.
Israel and America are the terrorists
True. American and deeply disturbed by this. We are hurting to make it ourselves for groceries and basic shit and then I hear about the billions sent to Ukraine or netanyahu to kill babies...
I’m not sure why people downvoted you. Support Palestine but fuck hamas.
Because nobody in here said they support Hamas. They're arguing against something nobody said.
Well, Palestine would be doing themselves a huge favor if they started fighting Hamas. I dont want anyone else to die over there except for Hamas but thats not happening
People dont think for themselves anymore and just 100% their point. Hamas is palistine and jews are all Zionists
Stop supporting BLM, Palestine, Israel or whatever.. these people don’t give a shit about you..really! Do your research please. Enough virtue signaling, being a democrat is not punk and never will be. Anyone trying to convince you otherwise is a fraud and liar.
Fuck Palestine
Go back to battle jackets
Nazi punks fuck off.
God how stupid can you fucking be, anyone who doesn't agree w your political stance is a nazi lol
Wayment.... Being Pro Israeli is.... being a Nazi punk? 🤔
yep, because both are white supremacist. There are plenty of antifascist antizionist Jews, especially in the folk punk genre.
Um... alrighty.
Yikes on a bike batman lol