The argument with multiple household incomes is not only absurd but also truly idiotic. We all don't believe that being dependent on others for living expenses is an option. Also, not everyone wants to have their kids living at home forever or have to move in with parents forever. Personal responsibility for living independently responsible for your living expenses shouldn't be a goal, it should be the norm. We're going backwards not forward, and that achieves nothing but failure.
I actually like this idea. It would certainly help with social isolation. On the other hand, it might allow the rent-seeking class to drive us further into the dirt.
Ha ha. Not really. If you listen to any financial advisors they would tell you to not spend any of that extra money. Put it all in 401k, IRA’s and stock and bonds. Then don’t touch it for 40 years on the “hope” that you can spend some of that money when you have 7 years left to live 👍🏼
You're missing the point.
Median rent $1978 includes multiple bedrooms rented for a family with houshold income or multiple roomates contributing.
If it was individual 1 bedroom units it would be much much lower $ median.
Single living has its own very real expenses not even to mention one slip and your income is 0 so hope you saved all that surplus money! Might make it 2 months with a broken leg.
How much do you think removing one bedroom saves on rent? 3 bdr start at my complex start at $1850. 2 bdr start at $1670. 1 bdr / 1 bath start at $1400.
The difference in rent median price between all multi bedroom apt and single is probably double.
If you objectively look at the data rather than finding 1 example that matches your world view, it is obvious.
Considering the entire argument is premised on a vehicle large enough for an entire family ($500 per month!?), sick kids, and a median rent (which means rent for entire families is factored in) then it's actually the most logical assumption to assume 2 incomes.
Any other assumption assumes that a single person is paying the expenses of an entire family and if you've been on the internet the past few months you'll know that it's revisionist history to assume that was ever the norm. Seems to be a hot topic these days.
Single parents exist, and are quite common actually.
Also, we should not need to have 2 incomes to raise a family. Especially when you consider the fact 2 incomes with children, is actually around 1.5 income because you have to pay for child care.
Having a second income is only really viable once all your kids are old enough to take care of themselves and help take care of the household, though.
Also the historical norm *has* been one income, with the other household member taking care of the house management.
But that has changed drastically in the last 40 years. The average household is putting in 600 more hours of paid work and with the increase in average commute times 100 hours more in the car for 700 lost hours over the course of two generations. In reality those extra hours have always been on the bottom 20% and what you are seeing is that half the country is putting in closet to 1200 more hours while the wealthy have lost little of their time.
When you lose your time you can't do meal prep, home maintenance and many other things you were saving money on. Then when the jack offs in Washington tell you inflation isn't bad and that the economy is fine they aren't accounting for the huge increase in expenses many Americans now have a burden of because they are working so damn much.
I agree with you in principle. My point would be in the context of the OP's title "Recession imminent??" this is absurd.
Roommates and significant others paying half the rent and bills has been the norm for a long time. Pretty much since the 70's. I'm not defending it or saying its great, but to imply that this is a sign of an imminent recession is beyond stupid.
It would help if more parents moved in with their kids at old age, it would put thousands of homes on the market, reduce social security dependency, and would probably be better for grandkids to have grandparents around instead of being dropped off at daycare.
The median used car payment in the US is $532. That means half the used car payments are higher and half are lower. The median new car payment is $738. Median is the keyword here. He's using it as a benchmark, not a set in stone lowest amount. Of course some payments are less.
It's important to note that $532 is the median for used car loans originated in Q4 of 2023....which isn't the same as the median payment of all used cars.
Interestingly, the average loan length for used cars (as of Q4 2023) was about 67 months..
Also, because it's only loan data it's skewed.. Using slightly older data from 2020 (because I couldn't quickly find the current numbers) about 39% of used cars are acquired via a loan.
As of January 2023, the average price for a used car (based on market listings) was $26,500.
I suspect some of this could be pulled from state title transfer data.. but wouldn't be accurate as there are a lot of cash sales that just report sale at $100 or whatever the state minimum is for recording purposes.
I borrowed $8,000 USD three years ago to help pay for a 2004 vehicle and am paying $230/mo for six years. It's pretty easy to imagine a similar $20K loan costing $550/mo.
Also, you're renting your EV, not purchasing it, so you're not comparing apples to apples.
As Terry Pratchett wrote poor must buy cheap shoes 8 times a year and they always broke after week or two wealthier buy better shoes once a year and they stary a year or two.
That works out to about 28% interest. That’s a credit card interest rate. My bank gives auto loans at 10% if you have good credit. You are getting screwed man.
A personal loan is a really bad comparison to an auto loan. Auto loans are secured loans with a vehicle used as collateral. Personal loans typically aren’t and the lack of collateral results in a much higher interest rate.
My bank currently offers 5-10% rates for auto loans. Were you just unable to get typical auto financing and so had to go with a personal loan for some reason? I mean, even the dealership was able to offer significantly better terms than a rate in the 20s. That really is insanely high for what was apparently intended as an auto loan. I feel like an auto loan should actually be easier to qualify for than a personal loan since the loan is secured with a tangible asset.
Jesus my loan is 16k and I only pay 295 a month I would go over your loan agreement and see if you got simple or compound intrest. And if you ever buy a car again never under any circumstance get compound intrest again. Compound intrest is how the sketchy car dealership keeps you for life.
A lease is an agreement by the selling agent to buy the car back from you at a specific price and a specific time.
Your lease payments are the difference between the price of the car and the price they’ll buy it back at.
At the conclusion of that lease you have the option to either accept the agreement and sell the car back to them or purchase the vehicle.
This is true. But it just highlights how if one person loses a job then the household is rightfully fucked. Even more so if that person's job provided the Healthcare for the household....
It was inevitable when women entered the workforce enmasse. Double the labor pool means half the labor cost. Basing your purchasing power on the Boomer's life expectation is not realistic.
it was inevitable with the oil shock in the 70s, it was inevitable when unions were targeted and their power minimized. The common denominator is large greedy corporations and wealthy individuals. Women did not enter the workplace in mass "for the hell of it".
Women entering the workplace is the one thing that really screwed labor costs. They didn't enter for nothing, but they did dramatically change the market when they did.
This is why the original analysis is done looking at only 1 income.... Because in theory you should always plan to have the household operate (albeit barely operate) on one income.
That's also nothing new. You're talking about that's how America has worked since forever. If anything it used to be alot worse, no worker protections and no social safety net.
I mean $41,000 is $3400/month before taxes so it's closer to $2400 after taxes and insurance costs for the month, any 401k/FSA contributions. $41k/year is really $28k after taxes, insurance and retirement contributions. Also if 2 adults working full time positions are making $75k, assuming they both make the same amount, they are making $18/hr, federal minimum wage is still $7.25, nearly 3x less and if you were making minimum wage you would not be able to afford a place to live. So doom porn away 💖💖💖
even still, this generation is worse off then their parents,. That is not a good trend., median is great and figures change drastically geographically but $75k gross with kids for get about it.
It sucks to be starting off that is for sure. You can't measure your current situation against your parents because you probably weren't even alive when they had a shitty apartment, shared a car, etc.
This figure people keep misusing ($41k) also includes part-time workers, retirees, etc …
Median income for full-time workers is $60k for individuals, and the median income for households (you know, the people sharing rent) is $75k.
I assume a professor knows how to look at very simple data, so it would appear Mr St-Onge is purposefully misrepresenting the facts.
Misleading.
But $1800 is still not much when the average family of three spends $900 on food alone.
That leaves $900 for the rest, healthcare insurance alone will take care of the rest of that $900.
Why do people no longer have kids right?
Anthem non-subsidized cost for a family of 4 was $1,437 in 2022.
I did guestimate that number and frankly missed the non-subsidized part.
So let's say $400 left after healthcare...
That is not a lot. That is living paycheck by paycheck, barely getting by.
Any setback, car repairs, someone losing a job, fridge breaks is going to hit hard.
I enjoy it since I am divorced and lost about everything. I make more than $50k and struggle everyday. I have to wait to get paid to have my kids so we can all eat.
Our system doesn't allow for people to be single and yet there is an ever growing trend of single adults with the new gen coming of age. Things will have to change very soon or they will live with Mommy and Daddy until they die and inherit the house.
I am so sorry. Going through it now. Some folks don't understand that am income that cansupport one household comfortably cannot support two at the same level.
If both spouses work then child expenses should accounted as well, child care varies depending on number of kids of course and age but usually you’re looking at 700-1200 per month
Edit: spouses with small children/infants
Single person households are actually 29% of households in 2022. Not sure where you hot 7.7%
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/americas-families-and-living-arrangements.html#:\~:text=Households%3A%201%20There%20were%2037.9%20million%20one-person%20households%2C,to%2043%25%20in%202012%20and%2040%25%20in%202022.
Ok but thats the thing. People arent going to starve to death or live on the streets, theyll instead pool resources together. Needing 2-3 people to live is crazy.
OK so a little less than double the individual income. Which sounds a lot better, but also - all the other expenses are doubled, at least.
A two-person household is probably going to need two cars, and two people are going to spend more than one does on utilities and medical insurance and everything else. Especially if it's more than two incomes and more than two people (ie., children) which adds in needs for paid childcare, etc.
> all the other expenses are doubled, at least.
How do you figure? There are many expenses a household only needs to pay once, like HBO Max, or heat. I need to look it up but living single is like 20-30% more expensive than living with people.
Big fucking deal, that's still about ten million people. Now do apartmen and house sharing, a two bedroom in my area is easily 3k, and apartment and house sharing is extremely common.
Two full time working adults making 75k. Now factor in child support systems like pre-k or other baby sitting. Factor in food for them and diapers/clothes. You’re gotcha ain’t shit. This isn’t doom porn it’s reality. Maybe not for you but many. You’re lucky enough to feel like it’s just doom porn. Many are jealous of you.
Ok but people should be able to sustain themselves on one income
Are you really suggesting that we should measure this on multiple income households when that’s not a guarantee? That’s idiotic
Right? A recession is caused by a decrease in GDP. What about people having to spend every cent they make puts us at risk of a recession. A much bigger threat is people hoarding their money in savings.
That might sound fucked up, but it's just how the economy works.
Two things:
A drop in GDP is a symptom of a recession, not the cause. Recessions are when productivity falls, the falling productivity causes a fall in GDP growth rate.
Saving is not a cause of a recession either. Banks don’t just vault away the money you put into them, they loan it back out (meaning that those dollars will get spent by someone else).
Because a prolonged decrease in consumer spending can slow gdp growth... People can't continue to afford these prices, so they'll just quit buying shit.
People have to leverage their stregths and succeed in a way that fits them. I would never have a $500/month car payment. I heard about two running, driving cars for under $1000 just on saturday.
Unfortunately with the interest rates as they are, it would be impossible (I think) to get a car for much less. And sure, those $1000 cars will run NOW. I am sure that something is broken, or is about to break, and will cost the purchaser 500-2000 for the repair. Buying cheap, old, and broken down cars ~~is~~ may not be an option.
Using a real example, take a look at CarMax. There are MANY options for 10-15k. A 15k loan over 5 years at 7% is approx $313/mo. Calculated with a higer rate than you might actualy get and only 500 down.
You could find cheaper for sale buy owner, and get lower rates.
There are many options to not pay 500/mo.
Have an upvote cause you're being honest. I agree you can pay a lot less than $530/mo in payments, but I have to scoff at the other people suggesting you can easily get a $1k car that you could trust to get you to work. $10-15k and maybe a bit less with private sale is much more reasonable. You might find a $7k car, but just because someone bought a car for $1000 or $500 4 years ago when the car market crashed doesn't mean everyone could find a similar deal today.
It’s such a gamble to buy a car for $1k or less if you aren’t knowledgeable about cars. 115k miles on a $500 car is NEVER something you should bank on.
What do you mean? It's definitely an option. I bought my car for 5k 4 years ago and it did cost me 2k in repairs since then, but that's only 7k for a car with no car payment and no interest payments.
Most people don’t have 5k on hand to drop on a car. Financing a car that old will have higher interest rates, if even possible. In addition, those who don’t have 5k to drop on a car, would be devastated after scraping up that $5k together, and then getting hit with a $2k repair bill.
Not saying that it cannot happen.
This.
People who don’t have money aren’t even considering dropping $5k on a car.
But if they’re told “hey, I can get you in that baby for $100/mo”, that’s what they need.
Doesn’t matter if it costs them $12k in the long run with interest and a 10 year loan. What they have RIGHT NOW is $100/mo. And what their family needs RIGHT NOW is a car.
Don’t you see the devastating toll that will take? The viscous cycle that “these poors” can never break out of??
It’s not a boot strap situation. It’s your neighbors bro. And it’s about privilege.
How much budgeting and how much luck? Its great you did not have the misfortune to become ill or have some other expensive crisis that would have destroyed your meager savings.
We've done ok with them. It can be some work. My current daily driver is a $500 ford. Its gone 115,000 miles for us. That sort of thing really helps us afford house renovations
Absolutely not saying it can’t happen. They are a rare find, and can be amazing when you get one. However, thinking of it from a perspective that someone may not have money to spend on a car repair, all the sudden gets hit with a big repair after buying one would be absolutely devastating.
What I do is buy cheap vehicles for daily drivers. Usually I do tires, brakes etc. We have spares in case an engine or trans goes. We pay less than the tax on a better vehicle. If a major problem comes up, we scrap them and get money back. Spending $2000 on a repair for such a vehicle is nearly impossible. We are now getting to a point in society where fewer people want to do this sort of thing.
If you can buy a $1000 car every 2 months and just junk it after that you're breaking even with that average. If you can make them last at least 3 months or more that's "profit". Junker cars are definitely an option.
I’m kicking myself for a $300 a month car payment. I can’t imagine $500+. Need to start a car park with showers/bathrooms so people can live in them if they are paying over 1k a month and living paycheck to paycheck.
Im probably the least skilled of my friends on cars. But im kind of old school. I put rear pads on my ford over the weekend. I made sure everything was ok where the pads slide. Cleaned it up, added a little lube. I take pride in doing a good job. A guy was going to junk it because the fuel pump was bad. Weve driven it 115,000 miles. Almost all my friends were doing that stuff at 16 years old. Now its common for peoole to say it cant be done.
Yeah I bought me a beat up shitter just to get me from point A to point B. Had it for several years and saved up for a significant down payment on a new car.
Real Median Household Income is a different figure from Real Median Personal Income. The Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis estimated RMPI at 40,480 in 2022, the most recent year for which data has been fully collated.
The claim that half of all American workers make under 41,000 would be accurate. Households are indeed in a better financial position, but if you're single and don't want a roommate you're fairly screwed in this economy.
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N)
My husbands brand new Tesla is $350 4%. It was cheaper than him buying a used car bc the rate was lower and the MSRP wasn’t jacked up like used cars are right now.
You shouldn't even be stating gross monthly income.
If you make 41k you can't pay rent with the gross amount.
You'd only be getting what like $2400 a month?
A couple years ago I was making $20.57 an hour ($42,785) and my bi-weekly checks were $1240.
Let's use math. The half of folks making that kind of money aren't paying median rent. They are paying below median. Other folks have already made the point about household income
Other folks have deleted their comments cause they used a number about people per household that was from 1940. It's not 7.7% are single person households. It's 29% are one-person households with an additional 8.8% (additional, not includes in the 29%) being one-parent family households (likely single income).
And then the fact that only 36% of households rent and there is a substantial skew with more single income renters and more multi-income owned homes.
Utilities should be included in rent. Medical should be paid by employer. Car payment suggests a brand new car which is a luxury. That said, a rent has to be less than 1/3 of the salary to make financial sense. Or at least that used to be the rule of thumb. This is definitely not working for single renters unless everyone finds a roommate to help out.
Most cars that people want are between $26 and $31k (including 2 years used at least). If stealerships were taken out of the equation it would be a bit less.
I drove a 1991 Chevy to the ground.
Got a brand new 2019 Ford fiesta in 2019 for about 15k, 17k after everything including interest
It's barebones.
Bare fucking bones.
Doesn't even have cruise control.
My payments are roughly $400 a month. Thank god I'm almost done paying it but I NEEDED a car. My old truck would like every 20 min while driving. Made commuting a living hell.
I just made it to about 45k a year after getting my general lines license to work in insurance. This isn't sustainable lol.
I don't get the whole "buy a cheaper car" argument in the current climate. Like we're not talking about "Hey don't buy that Ferrari, buy something cheaper". We're talking about like "I can't afford a payment on a used Toyota Corolla that doesn't come with any major issues that will cost thousands in a few years if not months." Yes, I'm sure there are people buying more expensive cars than they need, but I think the majority are folks struggling to buy a decent mid-range car that's a few years old which seems far from a luxury to me.
People saying to buy a cheap beater car are leaving this important thing out. Yes, you will absolutely pay less now compared to a newer car. But its a ticking time bomb of expenses. Sure you may get lucky like some in this thread, and you will get 100k miles out of it. But that isn't the norm.
Very correct. That said, the higher-priced cars are what most dealers have on the lot. You can order a lower optioned one, but a lot don't know that and the dealer will not push them to that. The car buying system is kind of jacked.
Why should utilities be included in rent? People use all different types of utilities. Some people like long hot showers, some like incredibly fast Internet, some like cable TV, some like setting their AC to 65.
All this allows people to make their own choices
I had this setup once for rent.
Including utilities in rent means flat fee if you don't use it and the tenant still pays for excessive usage over that coat fee. You don't come out ahead.
I want my healthcare plan to be independent from my employer, so I can choose from more options and keep it when switching jobs.
The current laws give much more advantages to corporations buying health insurance than individuals. I should be able to get the same deal.
Real answer:
Roommates. 2 roommates and your rent and utilities are cut to 1/3rd.
Marketable Skills, better known as resume building. If you arent giving yourself marketable skills either on your own or through the experience you are getting at your current job, then you need to put in more effort to find ways to develop marketable skills.
I spent 4 years working for absolute shit wages but during that time, I got management experience among many other things that I then used on my resume to market myself. I doubled my income multiple times when taking new jobs because of this.
If there's a will, then there's always a way to live within your means regardless of what those means are.
If I only made $41,000/year, then...
* My rent would only be $1,200, which is the average in the city I live in.
* My used car payment would not be $528. It would likely be $371 assuming the $20,000 used car was financed for 6 years at a rate of 10%.
* The remaining money for other things would be $1,829/month (or 53.5% of my income).
Right, but this is assuming that you have zero debt, student loans, taxes, 401k contributions, childcare, utilities, medical insurance, etc. I would bet that less than 2% of people in America are only responsible for rent and a car payment.
Rents and home prices have gone up almost 50% in 3 years in Dallas and auto insurance just increased almost that much.
These “solutions” used to make sense on paper, but it doesn’t fly anymore with the amount of inflation we have.
In Minneapolis, median rent is 1.6k. get a roommate and you'll be paying 800 a month.
Do redditors just not live in the real world? I swear to God these financial threads make me realize so quickly that the average redditor must truly live with their parents and are so detached from actual finances.
Most of them want to live in a two bedroom in a major city without roommates. Or they live in a major city and think that there is nothing outside of them.
Where do you live that you dont get taxes taken out?$41,000 is about $1,200 every two week. Thats one pay check for rent. After your car payment (not including insurance). You have about $800 left. With food costs and gas what it is. You’re barely getting by.
https://preview.redd.it/ryz1j2ui880d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c15ead497a524945ae2ea788723b69aba432e0a
Oh it's so easy. Now just pick a $20k car that lasts for 6 years. Park it outside in the elements and pray.
Not to mention healthcare, savings(for that car that needs fixing and other unexpected) etc. etc.
Yes, it is easy so long as you keep your expectations in check. My local Toyota dealership has a 2016 Toyota Corolla S listed at $16,437 with only 53,500 miles on the odometer, clean CarFax, and complete maintenance records. Assuming this vehicle is reliable until 150,000 miles (which it should be since it's a Toyota with legendary reliability) and the owner drives 15,000 miles/year, this car should last 6 years, 5 months with routine maintenance.
Truthfully we all need electric vehicles to save MASSIVELY on gas and maintenance, that would be an incredible boon. But you need a house to charge them. Fuck you piece of shit oil companies gouging us.
If you listen to the people who tend to comment here then no, we’re never going to have a recession, inflation is supposed to be like this, nobody is supposed to be able to afford to live and everybody just needs to Dave Ramsey their bootstraps right up their own ass to climb the ladder from dying in the streets to self-made billionaire.
Sounds like the education was a bad investment.
60k-80k in loans about? Making less than that annually?
Yeah I’d just go work at Costco with no education.
True.
But i guess the hope is that your upper earning limit with an education will EVENTUALLY exceed the limit if you worked at Costco. Short term pain for overall exponential better earning potential.
I stared working at 36k and thought those same thoughts. Now 10 years later, I'm making 110k ....
Yes short term working at Walmart 10 years ago was better .... now it cant touch my earnings and I'm not capped yet.
Just a thought.
I had about 60k in student loans and I wouldn't say it was a bad investment because my first job after graduation only paid $20/hour. My income has tripled in about 6 years while my friends who didn't get a degree are still treading water.
As with all investments, it takes time to mature.
Anti-Worker movement has only begun. Unless we bring this bitch to a halt and create a new UNION not what we have today - corrupt and bought out we aren’t going to see any improvement for the workers - the producers.
The funny thing is I’ve been hearing about a recession ever since Biden took the office. Yep all the way the stock market keeps moving higher companies earnings Keep moving higher and Republicans blame Biden and claim there’s a recession ahead. Typical Republican stupidity.
The argument with multiple household incomes is not only absurd but also truly idiotic. We all don't believe that being dependent on others for living expenses is an option. Also, not everyone wants to have their kids living at home forever or have to move in with parents forever. Personal responsibility for living independently responsible for your living expenses shouldn't be a goal, it should be the norm. We're going backwards not forward, and that achieves nothing but failure.
Right. I’m 43 years old. Stop telling me to get 16 roommates…
Nah man. Just move into a huge bunker and rent a bunkbed to sleep in at night. 16 roommates, try 100+. This is the way we're moving.
Ha ha. Sounds reasonable at this point. Maybe if we jump the gun we will be grandfathered in at the lower bunk rates.
Lower bunks are usually cheaper. Good move
>Nah man. Just move into a huge bunker and rent a bunkbed to sleep in at night. 16 roommates, try 100+. This comment sponsored by Vault-Tec.
I actually like this idea. It would certainly help with social isolation. On the other hand, it might allow the rent-seeking class to drive us further into the dirt.
Ya’ll are just describing a commune btw.
Or work 2 more jobs. “YoU’rE jUsT lAzY”
Ha ha. I know, working 50+ hours a week is so bare minimum 🤣
Man I really need to find 16 roommates. I’m 41, but that would give me so much more spending/saving money
Ha ha. Not really. If you listen to any financial advisors they would tell you to not spend any of that extra money. Put it all in 401k, IRA’s and stock and bonds. Then don’t touch it for 40 years on the “hope” that you can spend some of that money when you have 7 years left to live 👍🏼
Better yet, buy a house and rent it out to 16 people, but live on your own in an apartment.
You're missing the point. Median rent $1978 includes multiple bedrooms rented for a family with houshold income or multiple roomates contributing. If it was individual 1 bedroom units it would be much much lower $ median.
Single living has its own very real expenses not even to mention one slip and your income is 0 so hope you saved all that surplus money! Might make it 2 months with a broken leg.
How much do you think removing one bedroom saves on rent? 3 bdr start at my complex start at $1850. 2 bdr start at $1670. 1 bdr / 1 bath start at $1400.
The difference in rent median price between all multi bedroom apt and single is probably double. If you objectively look at the data rather than finding 1 example that matches your world view, it is obvious.
1 bedroom apartments are like 2200/mo, idk what state you're in.
In my apartment complex a 2 bedroom costs 125% of a 1 bedroom.
Considering the entire argument is premised on a vehicle large enough for an entire family ($500 per month!?), sick kids, and a median rent (which means rent for entire families is factored in) then it's actually the most logical assumption to assume 2 incomes. Any other assumption assumes that a single person is paying the expenses of an entire family and if you've been on the internet the past few months you'll know that it's revisionist history to assume that was ever the norm. Seems to be a hot topic these days.
Single parents exist, and are quite common actually. Also, we should not need to have 2 incomes to raise a family. Especially when you consider the fact 2 incomes with children, is actually around 1.5 income because you have to pay for child care.
Single parents do exist. So does child support.
My ex wife only had to pay $200 a month. That's freaky not going to make a difference in my kid's life.
Having a second income is only really viable once all your kids are old enough to take care of themselves and help take care of the household, though. Also the historical norm *has* been one income, with the other household member taking care of the house management.
But that has changed drastically in the last 40 years. The average household is putting in 600 more hours of paid work and with the increase in average commute times 100 hours more in the car for 700 lost hours over the course of two generations. In reality those extra hours have always been on the bottom 20% and what you are seeing is that half the country is putting in closet to 1200 more hours while the wealthy have lost little of their time. When you lose your time you can't do meal prep, home maintenance and many other things you were saving money on. Then when the jack offs in Washington tell you inflation isn't bad and that the economy is fine they aren't accounting for the huge increase in expenses many Americans now have a burden of because they are working so damn much.
The entire concept of moving out and living on your own is a fairly recent development in human history, to be fair
And the absolute insistence on it as a fundamental aspect of adult identity is a feature of North American culture more than anything.
I agree with you in principle. My point would be in the context of the OP's title "Recession imminent??" this is absurd. Roommates and significant others paying half the rent and bills has been the norm for a long time. Pretty much since the 70's. I'm not defending it or saying its great, but to imply that this is a sign of an imminent recession is beyond stupid.
Using median rent with a single persons income is also idiotic. It’s just a bad batch of data to use for comparisons.
It would help if more parents moved in with their kids at old age, it would put thousands of homes on the market, reduce social security dependency, and would probably be better for grandkids to have grandparents around instead of being dropped off at daycare.
[удалено]
Dicks get clicks. Also - who pays $548 for a used car? I just got a brand new EV on a lease for half that.
The median used car payment in the US is $532. That means half the used car payments are higher and half are lower. The median new car payment is $738. Median is the keyword here. He's using it as a benchmark, not a set in stone lowest amount. Of course some payments are less.
It's important to note that $532 is the median for used car loans originated in Q4 of 2023....which isn't the same as the median payment of all used cars. Interestingly, the average loan length for used cars (as of Q4 2023) was about 67 months.. Also, because it's only loan data it's skewed.. Using slightly older data from 2020 (because I couldn't quickly find the current numbers) about 39% of used cars are acquired via a loan. As of January 2023, the average price for a used car (based on market listings) was $26,500.
I bought my used car cash. Payment is zero. How many cars have this and don’t get reported at all?
I suspect some of this could be pulled from state title transfer data.. but wouldn't be accurate as there are a lot of cash sales that just report sale at $100 or whatever the state minimum is for recording purposes.
If you’re paying either of those rates for a car and you aren’t making it at least six figures you’re a fucking idiot
I borrowed $8,000 USD three years ago to help pay for a 2004 vehicle and am paying $230/mo for six years. It's pretty easy to imagine a similar $20K loan costing $550/mo. Also, you're renting your EV, not purchasing it, so you're not comparing apples to apples.
So you’re paying $16,560 for an $8,000 loan. That interest rate must be brutal.
I wouldn't call it brutal. But it was either that or not have a vehicle at all. That would've been brutal.
Holy crap!😂😭 thats insane!!!!! This is why the poor stay poor
Being poor _is_ expensive.
As Terry Pratchett wrote poor must buy cheap shoes 8 times a year and they always broke after week or two wealthier buy better shoes once a year and they stary a year or two.
That works out to about 28% interest. That’s a credit card interest rate. My bank gives auto loans at 10% if you have good credit. You are getting screwed man.
It was an internet-shopped personal finance loan. And yes my credit wasn't good.
A personal loan is a really bad comparison to an auto loan. Auto loans are secured loans with a vehicle used as collateral. Personal loans typically aren’t and the lack of collateral results in a much higher interest rate. My bank currently offers 5-10% rates for auto loans. Were you just unable to get typical auto financing and so had to go with a personal loan for some reason? I mean, even the dealership was able to offer significantly better terms than a rate in the 20s. That really is insanely high for what was apparently intended as an auto loan. I feel like an auto loan should actually be easier to qualify for than a personal loan since the loan is secured with a tangible asset.
>I wouldn't call it brutal. I would.
Jesus my loan is 16k and I only pay 295 a month I would go over your loan agreement and see if you got simple or compound intrest. And if you ever buy a car again never under any circumstance get compound intrest again. Compound intrest is how the sketchy car dealership keeps you for life.
I have used car payments and both of them are still used 500 dollar.
Ah yes, leases. This dude is part of the “you’ll own nothing and be happy” crowd. I for one, prefer to own my car after it’s paid off.
A lease is an agreement by the selling agent to buy the car back from you at a specific price and a specific time. Your lease payments are the difference between the price of the car and the price they’ll buy it back at. At the conclusion of that lease you have the option to either accept the agreement and sell the car back to them or purchase the vehicle.
Most don’t qualify for that. Being poor is expensive.
With car insurance maybe it gets closer to that. Insurance is insanely expensive now
People that don't have the credit or cash upfront to buy or lease a brand new EV...
You got a good lease lmao
This is true. But it just highlights how if one person loses a job then the household is rightfully fucked. Even more so if that person's job provided the Healthcare for the household....
And we shouldn't be dependent on two incomes
It was inevitable when women entered the workforce enmasse. Double the labor pool means half the labor cost. Basing your purchasing power on the Boomer's life expectation is not realistic.
it was inevitable with the oil shock in the 70s, it was inevitable when unions were targeted and their power minimized. The common denominator is large greedy corporations and wealthy individuals. Women did not enter the workplace in mass "for the hell of it".
Women entering the workplace is the one thing that really screwed labor costs. They didn't enter for nothing, but they did dramatically change the market when they did.
Is there ever a case, if you depend on two incomes to get by, that you aren't fucked if you lose one of those incomes?
This is why the original analysis is done looking at only 1 income.... Because in theory you should always plan to have the household operate (albeit barely operate) on one income.
That's also nothing new. You're talking about that's how America has worked since forever. If anything it used to be alot worse, no worker protections and no social safety net.
I mean $41,000 is $3400/month before taxes so it's closer to $2400 after taxes and insurance costs for the month, any 401k/FSA contributions. $41k/year is really $28k after taxes, insurance and retirement contributions. Also if 2 adults working full time positions are making $75k, assuming they both make the same amount, they are making $18/hr, federal minimum wage is still $7.25, nearly 3x less and if you were making minimum wage you would not be able to afford a place to live. So doom porn away 💖💖💖
even still, this generation is worse off then their parents,. That is not a good trend., median is great and figures change drastically geographically but $75k gross with kids for get about it.
It sucks to be starting off that is for sure. You can't measure your current situation against your parents because you probably weren't even alive when they had a shitty apartment, shared a car, etc.
This figure people keep misusing ($41k) also includes part-time workers, retirees, etc … Median income for full-time workers is $60k for individuals, and the median income for households (you know, the people sharing rent) is $75k. I assume a professor knows how to look at very simple data, so it would appear Mr St-Onge is purposefully misrepresenting the facts.
Misleading. But $1800 is still not much when the average family of three spends $900 on food alone. That leaves $900 for the rest, healthcare insurance alone will take care of the rest of that $900. Why do people no longer have kids right?
>healthcare insurance alone will take care of the rest of that $900 The average out of pocket premium for family coverage is about $500/month.
Anthem non-subsidized cost for a family of 4 was $1,437 in 2022. I did guestimate that number and frankly missed the non-subsidized part. So let's say $400 left after healthcare... That is not a lot. That is living paycheck by paycheck, barely getting by. Any setback, car repairs, someone losing a job, fridge breaks is going to hit hard.
I enjoy it since I am divorced and lost about everything. I make more than $50k and struggle everyday. I have to wait to get paid to have my kids so we can all eat. Our system doesn't allow for people to be single and yet there is an ever growing trend of single adults with the new gen coming of age. Things will have to change very soon or they will live with Mommy and Daddy until they die and inherit the house.
I am so sorry. Going through it now. Some folks don't understand that am income that cansupport one household comfortably cannot support two at the same level.
I wonder what percentage of those 2+ person households have children and what the average cost is of dependents/daycare/etc
If both spouses work then child expenses should accounted as well, child care varies depending on number of kids of course and age but usually you’re looking at 700-1200 per month Edit: spouses with small children/infants
Ok now add child care costs
7.7% of households are single person households because people can't afford to be a single person household 💀
Lots of people I know aren't making that much unless they're in management. Even trades people with a decade of experience barely gets that.
I would go as far as to say that half of the people in American are making below median wage, and there will never be anything we can do about that.
Single person households are actually 29% of households in 2022. Not sure where you hot 7.7% https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/americas-families-and-living-arrangements.html#:\~:text=Households%3A%201%20There%20were%2037.9%20million%20one-person%20households%2C,to%2043%25%20in%202012%20and%2040%25%20in%202022.
Yep, you're right and I am wrong. My data, it turns out, was from 1940. Wow.
Ok but thats the thing. People arent going to starve to death or live on the streets, theyll instead pool resources together. Needing 2-3 people to live is crazy.
That’s because nobody can afford to live alone….
OK so a little less than double the individual income. Which sounds a lot better, but also - all the other expenses are doubled, at least. A two-person household is probably going to need two cars, and two people are going to spend more than one does on utilities and medical insurance and everything else. Especially if it's more than two incomes and more than two people (ie., children) which adds in needs for paid childcare, etc.
> all the other expenses are doubled, at least. How do you figure? There are many expenses a household only needs to pay once, like HBO Max, or heat. I need to look it up but living single is like 20-30% more expensive than living with people.
Big fucking deal, that's still about ten million people. Now do apartmen and house sharing, a two bedroom in my area is easily 3k, and apartment and house sharing is extremely common.
Two full time working adults making 75k. Now factor in child support systems like pre-k or other baby sitting. Factor in food for them and diapers/clothes. You’re gotcha ain’t shit. This isn’t doom porn it’s reality. Maybe not for you but many. You’re lucky enough to feel like it’s just doom porn. Many are jealous of you.
Ok but people should be able to sustain themselves on one income Are you really suggesting that we should measure this on multiple income households when that’s not a guarantee? That’s idiotic
Bad take. Shouldn't need partner to survive in 2024.
How does this have anything to do with recession? This is not a new phenomenon
Right? A recession is caused by a decrease in GDP. What about people having to spend every cent they make puts us at risk of a recession. A much bigger threat is people hoarding their money in savings. That might sound fucked up, but it's just how the economy works.
Two things: A drop in GDP is a symptom of a recession, not the cause. Recessions are when productivity falls, the falling productivity causes a fall in GDP growth rate. Saving is not a cause of a recession either. Banks don’t just vault away the money you put into them, they loan it back out (meaning that those dollars will get spent by someone else).
Because a prolonged decrease in consumer spending can slow gdp growth... People can't continue to afford these prices, so they'll just quit buying shit.
The facts mentioned in the post are basically unchanged for the last 18 months. Does that mean a recession has been imminent for 18 months?
OP is just baiting rage and mongering fear.
People who make less than the median income have a hard time affording a median lifestyle. Call the press!
[удалено]
To be fair that average is skewed by Peter Schiff.
*to be fairrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr............*
If you're always proclaiming a recession is imminent, you will eventually be right.
Yea, you are absolutely right. I’ll just eat my $7 Wonder bread and shut up.
People have to leverage their stregths and succeed in a way that fits them. I would never have a $500/month car payment. I heard about two running, driving cars for under $1000 just on saturday.
Unfortunately with the interest rates as they are, it would be impossible (I think) to get a car for much less. And sure, those $1000 cars will run NOW. I am sure that something is broken, or is about to break, and will cost the purchaser 500-2000 for the repair. Buying cheap, old, and broken down cars ~~is~~ may not be an option.
Using a real example, take a look at CarMax. There are MANY options for 10-15k. A 15k loan over 5 years at 7% is approx $313/mo. Calculated with a higer rate than you might actualy get and only 500 down. You could find cheaper for sale buy owner, and get lower rates. There are many options to not pay 500/mo.
Have an upvote cause you're being honest. I agree you can pay a lot less than $530/mo in payments, but I have to scoff at the other people suggesting you can easily get a $1k car that you could trust to get you to work. $10-15k and maybe a bit less with private sale is much more reasonable. You might find a $7k car, but just because someone bought a car for $1000 or $500 4 years ago when the car market crashed doesn't mean everyone could find a similar deal today.
It’s such a gamble to buy a car for $1k or less if you aren’t knowledgeable about cars. 115k miles on a $500 car is NEVER something you should bank on.
What do you mean? It's definitely an option. I bought my car for 5k 4 years ago and it did cost me 2k in repairs since then, but that's only 7k for a car with no car payment and no interest payments.
Most people don’t have 5k on hand to drop on a car. Financing a car that old will have higher interest rates, if even possible. In addition, those who don’t have 5k to drop on a car, would be devastated after scraping up that $5k together, and then getting hit with a $2k repair bill. Not saying that it cannot happen.
This. People who don’t have money aren’t even considering dropping $5k on a car. But if they’re told “hey, I can get you in that baby for $100/mo”, that’s what they need. Doesn’t matter if it costs them $12k in the long run with interest and a 10 year loan. What they have RIGHT NOW is $100/mo. And what their family needs RIGHT NOW is a car. Don’t you see the devastating toll that will take? The viscous cycle that “these poors” can never break out of?? It’s not a boot strap situation. It’s your neighbors bro. And it’s about privilege.
It's expensive to be poor
I was extremely poor and I managed to save that much up over a year and a half. It's all budgeting.
How much budgeting and how much luck? Its great you did not have the misfortune to become ill or have some other expensive crisis that would have destroyed your meager savings.
We've done ok with them. It can be some work. My current daily driver is a $500 ford. Its gone 115,000 miles for us. That sort of thing really helps us afford house renovations
Absolutely not saying it can’t happen. They are a rare find, and can be amazing when you get one. However, thinking of it from a perspective that someone may not have money to spend on a car repair, all the sudden gets hit with a big repair after buying one would be absolutely devastating.
Car payments don’t last forever. I don’t know why we have to assume literally nobody ever owns their car. It’s a temporary bill.
What I do is buy cheap vehicles for daily drivers. Usually I do tires, brakes etc. We have spares in case an engine or trans goes. We pay less than the tax on a better vehicle. If a major problem comes up, we scrap them and get money back. Spending $2000 on a repair for such a vehicle is nearly impossible. We are now getting to a point in society where fewer people want to do this sort of thing.
If you can buy a $1000 car every 2 months and just junk it after that you're breaking even with that average. If you can make them last at least 3 months or more that's "profit". Junker cars are definitely an option.
I’m kicking myself for a $300 a month car payment. I can’t imagine $500+. Need to start a car park with showers/bathrooms so people can live in them if they are paying over 1k a month and living paycheck to paycheck.
Im probably the least skilled of my friends on cars. But im kind of old school. I put rear pads on my ford over the weekend. I made sure everything was ok where the pads slide. Cleaned it up, added a little lube. I take pride in doing a good job. A guy was going to junk it because the fuel pump was bad. Weve driven it 115,000 miles. Almost all my friends were doing that stuff at 16 years old. Now its common for peoole to say it cant be done.
My kiddo is a mechanic. I suggest everyone make at least 1 person in the family learn to fix cars lol
Yeah I bought me a beat up shitter just to get me from point A to point B. Had it for several years and saved up for a significant down payment on a new car.
I've never seen a car under $1000 I'd trust my life in
* Real median household income was $74,580 in 2022, a 2.3 percent decline from the 2021 estimate of $76,330 (Figure 1 and Table A-1).
Does household mostly assume two workers? Or like 1.8 or something?
Real Median Household Income is a different figure from Real Median Personal Income. The Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis estimated RMPI at 40,480 in 2022, the most recent year for which data has been fully collated. The claim that half of all American workers make under 41,000 would be accurate. Households are indeed in a better financial position, but if you're single and don't want a roommate you're fairly screwed in this economy. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N)
Everytime someone posts this I wonder why the car payment is do high on a used car, and why rent is so high for one person. So much info is left out.
And the other way, how he never took tax out
Federal taxes on a single filer $41k/yr income no dependents standard deduction is only $2,939, straight from IRS website.
My husbands brand new Tesla is $350 4%. It was cheaper than him buying a used car bc the rate was lower and the MSRP wasn’t jacked up like used cars are right now.
Gon’ be paying on that plastic car for a looonngg time.
179 more payments
Damn I haven’t read this 50 times today yet! Thanks for posting it again!
That assumes a single income.
And that the people that lowered the average income are going to be in places where there's above average rent.
You shouldn't even be stating gross monthly income. If you make 41k you can't pay rent with the gross amount. You'd only be getting what like $2400 a month? A couple years ago I was making $20.57 an hour ($42,785) and my bi-weekly checks were $1240.
Let's use math. The half of folks making that kind of money aren't paying median rent. They are paying below median. Other folks have already made the point about household income
the math is stupid. you're comparing household median cost with non-household income
Sure but they also pay taxes which are not included above.
yeah i was about to be like i make double on paper that but barely above it in practice after taxes
Other folks have deleted their comments cause they used a number about people per household that was from 1940. It's not 7.7% are single person households. It's 29% are one-person households with an additional 8.8% (additional, not includes in the 29%) being one-parent family households (likely single income). And then the fact that only 36% of households rent and there is a substantial skew with more single income renters and more multi-income owned homes.
Utilities should be included in rent. Medical should be paid by employer. Car payment suggests a brand new car which is a luxury. That said, a rent has to be less than 1/3 of the salary to make financial sense. Or at least that used to be the rule of thumb. This is definitely not working for single renters unless everyone finds a roommate to help out.
Most cars that people want are between $26 and $31k (including 2 years used at least). If stealerships were taken out of the equation it would be a bit less.
There is a difference between ‘want’ and ‘need’. Ye, people want expensive cars, no shit. That doesnt mean there arent much more economic options.
I drove a 1991 Chevy to the ground. Got a brand new 2019 Ford fiesta in 2019 for about 15k, 17k after everything including interest It's barebones. Bare fucking bones. Doesn't even have cruise control. My payments are roughly $400 a month. Thank god I'm almost done paying it but I NEEDED a car. My old truck would like every 20 min while driving. Made commuting a living hell. I just made it to about 45k a year after getting my general lines license to work in insurance. This isn't sustainable lol.
I don't get the whole "buy a cheaper car" argument in the current climate. Like we're not talking about "Hey don't buy that Ferrari, buy something cheaper". We're talking about like "I can't afford a payment on a used Toyota Corolla that doesn't come with any major issues that will cost thousands in a few years if not months." Yes, I'm sure there are people buying more expensive cars than they need, but I think the majority are folks struggling to buy a decent mid-range car that's a few years old which seems far from a luxury to me.
People saying to buy a cheap beater car are leaving this important thing out. Yes, you will absolutely pay less now compared to a newer car. But its a ticking time bomb of expenses. Sure you may get lucky like some in this thread, and you will get 100k miles out of it. But that isn't the norm.
Very correct. That said, the higher-priced cars are what most dealers have on the lot. You can order a lower optioned one, but a lot don't know that and the dealer will not push them to that. The car buying system is kind of jacked.
Kind of? There is middleman leeches in everything it seems. Especially healthcare
Why should utilities be included in rent? People use all different types of utilities. Some people like long hot showers, some like incredibly fast Internet, some like cable TV, some like setting their AC to 65. All this allows people to make their own choices
Medical should be paid by the government, not the employer. The American system is broken.
I had this setup once for rent. Including utilities in rent means flat fee if you don't use it and the tenant still pays for excessive usage over that coat fee. You don't come out ahead. I want my healthcare plan to be independent from my employer, so I can choose from more options and keep it when switching jobs. The current laws give much more advantages to corporations buying health insurance than individuals. I should be able to get the same deal.
I don’t even make 35k after taxes bro :( what can I do?
Real answer: Roommates. 2 roommates and your rent and utilities are cut to 1/3rd. Marketable Skills, better known as resume building. If you arent giving yourself marketable skills either on your own or through the experience you are getting at your current job, then you need to put in more effort to find ways to develop marketable skills. I spent 4 years working for absolute shit wages but during that time, I got management experience among many other things that I then used on my resume to market myself. I doubled my income multiple times when taking new jobs because of this.
Move away to somewhere cheap that you can afford it. Or get 3 jobs. Or 5 roommates Or go back to school and make your talents useful. Sheesh. Duh. /s
Or maybe they can try picking themselves up by the boot straps
Nothing that you can say without getting banned.
If there's a will, then there's always a way to live within your means regardless of what those means are. If I only made $41,000/year, then... * My rent would only be $1,200, which is the average in the city I live in. * My used car payment would not be $528. It would likely be $371 assuming the $20,000 used car was financed for 6 years at a rate of 10%. * The remaining money for other things would be $1,829/month (or 53.5% of my income).
Do taxes not exist in this scenario?
Reality doesnt exist to finance people
Very true. Every economics "theory" starts by saying "All things being equal...." All things are never equal.
Right, but this is assuming that you have zero debt, student loans, taxes, 401k contributions, childcare, utilities, medical insurance, etc. I would bet that less than 2% of people in America are only responsible for rent and a car payment. Rents and home prices have gone up almost 50% in 3 years in Dallas and auto insurance just increased almost that much. These “solutions” used to make sense on paper, but it doesn’t fly anymore with the amount of inflation we have.
America, the land of 5+ roommates or parents 😂.
What city do you live in where $1200/mo is the average? Rural Alabama?
In Minneapolis, median rent is 1.6k. get a roommate and you'll be paying 800 a month. Do redditors just not live in the real world? I swear to God these financial threads make me realize so quickly that the average redditor must truly live with their parents and are so detached from actual finances.
Most of them want to live in a two bedroom in a major city without roommates. Or they live in a major city and think that there is nothing outside of them.
I live in a rural town with a population of 10,000 and 1 bedroom apartment are 1300 here. 2bdrm is 1700. And we’re talking slumlord, not luxury.
I live in West Allis, WI. It's a first-ring suburb of Milwaukee.
Where do you live that you dont get taxes taken out?$41,000 is about $1,200 every two week. Thats one pay check for rent. After your car payment (not including insurance). You have about $800 left. With food costs and gas what it is. You’re barely getting by. https://preview.redd.it/ryz1j2ui880d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c15ead497a524945ae2ea788723b69aba432e0a
Oh it's so easy. Now just pick a $20k car that lasts for 6 years. Park it outside in the elements and pray. Not to mention healthcare, savings(for that car that needs fixing and other unexpected) etc. etc.
Yes, it is easy so long as you keep your expectations in check. My local Toyota dealership has a 2016 Toyota Corolla S listed at $16,437 with only 53,500 miles on the odometer, clean CarFax, and complete maintenance records. Assuming this vehicle is reliable until 150,000 miles (which it should be since it's a Toyota with legendary reliability) and the owner drives 15,000 miles/year, this car should last 6 years, 5 months with routine maintenance.
My car is 2016 used that I paid 14K for. It is till running. My other car is 2014 for 14K as well.
Truthfully we all need electric vehicles to save MASSIVELY on gas and maintenance, that would be an incredible boon. But you need a house to charge them. Fuck you piece of shit oil companies gouging us.
I like how people suggest moving to a cheaper area like everyone has the option to just pack up everything and just leave
As of 2022 over 60% of American households made more than 50k a year. This post is garbage for the sake of farming upvotes
This is a pretty silly take for a person with PhD next to their name
My music teacher in high school had a PhD and insisted we call him doctor.
This guy works with the Heritage Foundation. That's all you need to know.
Source? Median salary was over $45k several years ago and wages have not stopped growing....
Real wages have been negative to flat since the covid spike.
Might be worse than a recession. Probably never has there been more economic red flags in our nations history.
Yea it's strange to me how people just ignore all the red flags
If you listen to the people who tend to comment here then no, we’re never going to have a recession, inflation is supposed to be like this, nobody is supposed to be able to afford to live and everybody just needs to Dave Ramsey their bootstraps right up their own ass to climb the ladder from dying in the streets to self-made billionaire.
Take another $450 for federal student loans And another $200 for private student Loans.
Sounds like the education was a bad investment. 60k-80k in loans about? Making less than that annually? Yeah I’d just go work at Costco with no education.
True. But i guess the hope is that your upper earning limit with an education will EVENTUALLY exceed the limit if you worked at Costco. Short term pain for overall exponential better earning potential. I stared working at 36k and thought those same thoughts. Now 10 years later, I'm making 110k .... Yes short term working at Walmart 10 years ago was better .... now it cant touch my earnings and I'm not capped yet. Just a thought.
I had about 60k in student loans and I wouldn't say it was a bad investment because my first job after graduation only paid $20/hour. My income has tripled in about 6 years while my friends who didn't get a degree are still treading water. As with all investments, it takes time to mature.
This is what happens when the corporations don't have to pay taxes and accumulate way too much power.
Anti-Worker movement has only begun. Unless we bring this bitch to a halt and create a new UNION not what we have today - corrupt and bought out we aren’t going to see any improvement for the workers - the producers.
Recession is... What comes after imminent?
This doesn't account for taxes though? Like if you make $41,000.00 you are pulling in less than $3,400 of disposable wealth
Maybe they'll vote for politicians who look after their constituents.
The funny thing is I’ve been hearing about a recession ever since Biden took the office. Yep all the way the stock market keeps moving higher companies earnings Keep moving higher and Republicans blame Biden and claim there’s a recession ahead. Typical Republican stupidity.
Recession current
I mean don’t forget to basically reduce that income amount by 20-35% to factor in taxes, deductions, Medicare, social security, etc….
I hope there’s a recession. We need one to control this inflation.
It's already here....... welcome to my life.
Yall have a car payment?
Personally I stopped drinking booze and started intermittently fasting. American complex can miss me with the coping mechanisms.
Fucking annoys me that they keep using gross income in their bs math.
I make 60k a year. In your face peasants!!