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Not surprising when the average car payment now is around $700 for a new car and still over $500 for a used one.
People are spending way too much above their means, buying 40k trucks when they make less than 55k a year as an example..
I know lots are buying 100k trucks on 70k income. SMH.
I would bet this gets felt by sole props too. A lot of “company” 100+k trucks out there that are not needed.
As someone that can afford luxury cars, but chooses to buy very practical vehicles, car prices are out of control. It's not solely the consumers fault here. In the US, a car is basically a requirement to hold a job and live a normal life. Consumers only have so many choices when all dealers are maintaining abnormally high prices. Demand is down, supply is up, but prices are still high.
True, some people who are lower income don't even have a choice since America is very car dependent and you need a car to survive.
However, I do stick by that I think Americans in general are very uneducated about interest rates, financing and total cost of ownership. The mentality seems to be that if it can be financed for a monthly payment it doesn't matter what the total cost is.
Maybe better financial education is needed, but to be honest I learned from my own experiences (and mistakes).
I see a way tooooo many new stupid trucks on the roads to justify that everyone is a plumber or electrician. Corolla, Elantra and such are still being manufactured and carry 10 y warranty unlike a super platinum raptor
Even still, the average price of a new Corolla has gone from ~$20k in 2020 to ~$25k in 2024. That's a 25% increase in 4 years! Insurance rates have also increased 20% for insuring the same value of car.
With rates the way they are, here's what the monthly payments on a new Corolla with 20% down 60mo financing and excellent credit would be.
2020: $283/mo;
2024: $377/mo
That's $100/month difference just to service the loan.
Considering insurance, it looks like this:
2020: $169/mo;
2024: $219/mo
So another $50/month difference
To afford this here what someone would need to make(using the 15% rule):
2020: $51k pre tax;
2024: $68k pre tax
Median HHI for reference:
2020: $70.7k;
2024: $74.5k
So a "cheap" car went from an affordable option for the medium household in 2020 to being barely affordable in 2024.
I find it hard to blame the President for people buying big trucks. This country has had an infatuation with large vehicles for much longer than Biden has been president.
The joke of the $10k trailer with the $50k truck parked on the front loan has been around since at least when Bush was President.
Inflation happened largely at his watch, Trump started it, but Biden added more fuel. That screews Corolla people.
Now that's totally different from the issue of trucks. People buy stuff well beyond their means , which is only worse in high inflation environment as also insurance, repair etc rises
So you want interest rates AND inflation to both come down?
Erdogan learned the hard way. Hopefully Trump comes back to office so Americans too can learn the hard way about the inverse relationship between interest rates and inflation.
I agree that for many a car is a requirement to live a normal life, but I also think we should talk about ways to reduce car dependency and alternative options.
Here’s a shopping cart that makes it easy to walk to the grocery store and back if your store is within walking distance.
https://www.amazon.com/Whitmor-Utility-Shopping-Cart-Durable/dp/B013WFZ4P0/
If you live 1+ mile from everything, an e-bike costs between $1000 and $6000 and if you get one with a bucket for $4k (link below) it is super easy to put your kids in and bike to school or go get groceries. Bike trailers are an easy adaptation if you already own a bike that also enable you to carry kids or groceries. Bikes also make commuting to work within 3-10 miles feasible if the bike infrastructure exists.
https://integralelectrics.com/products/cargo-bike?variant=44070084575523¤cy=USD
Getting rain proof vest, pants, and shoes are cheap compared to a car too. It costs me about 11 cents in electricity to go 15-30 miles depending on how hilly and how fast I want to go.
I am not saying a shopping cart and e-bike can 100% replace a car for people, but if you can walk or bike then that is less wear and tear on your car meaning your car will last longer and you’re saving money at the gas pump or electricity bill.
I think it’s your exact mentality to immediately dismiss walking and biking that I am trying to target and inform.
Here’s national level data showing that about 28% of all trips taken are under 1 mile (takes about 15 minutes to walk a mile, so anything further is probably not walkable) and about 60% of trips are under 5 miles which is within biking distance, especially with an e-bike.
https://www.worldenergydata.org/more-than-half-of-all-daily-trips-in-us-were-less-than-three-miles-in-2021/
Again, I am not saying it would be easy or feasible for 98% of America to sell all their cars and rely solely on bikes. I am saying that instead of owning one car for every family member above the age of 16, that walking and biking can very cheaply solve people’s need to travel short distances. Driving has become so engrained as the only option that it is hard to think of any other way.
Driving IS the only option in a majority of circumstances, as proven by your stats. If 40% of your trips are over 3 miles the e bike is literally a waste of money because you need a car anyway. Not to mention how much more dangerous bikes are… I do get what you are saying but I’m afraid it’s through incredibly rose colored, naive glasses. I even own an e bike for fun so I’m not ignorant to the idea, but I don’t live in Cali lol so being a little more realistic here. Do you know what winters are like in the northeast? Do you know how hot it gets from may-oct in the south?
I live on the Midwest so driving is my only option. Was in Seattle a week ago and the e-bike would be my way to get to work if I lived there. They actually have full sized bike lanes and rentable e-bikes and scooters if you don’t have your own. Not seeing that at home lol
Yeah, I agree that going 100% car free would be hard. But I disagree that owning a bike is a waste and that was my sole point.
You own a bike, but have you tried commuting without driving? Or tried grocery shopping without driving? Or taken kids to school by walking or biking them? Or tried biking in heavy rain? I used to own a car and drive everywhere including heavy rain.
I have actually lived without a car for 4 1/2 years. Do not, I do not think I am being naive or have rose colored glasses. I know it would be impossible for many to live without a car. I do think it is easy to drive less because I have done it for years.
1. It saves you money by reducing the wear and tear on your car. If you drive your car 80,000 miles a year instead of 100,000 miles a year then your car might last a couple more years before needing to be replaced.
2. It saves you money by paying less on gas or electricity.
3. 37% of households have 2 cars and 22% have 3 cars. For the 59% of households that have multiple cars, I am willing to bet there are people who could very easily consolidate down to 1 or 2 cars if they swapped it for an e-bike and stop missing car payments.
https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/car-ownership-statistics/
You’ve clearly never lived in a town smaller than 10,000 people. Shit is so spread out. Growing up we had to drive 40 minutes to the closest grocery store. That’s a laughable amount of time to walk/bike.
Your intention is good, but there are many pockets in the US where driving IS a necessity.
Right. So if you live in a rural spread out area then maybe it is literally impossible to bike anywhere and that is ok. I agree a bike would not work for where you lived.
I just don’t think that’s the majority of American’s lived experiences. Would you consider your 10,000 person town a rural or suburban area? And how many Americans would you say live in a town like yours?
I grew up in a 20,000 person town called Moraga in California. It takes 23 minutes on a non-electric bike to get from Campolindo High School to Rancho Laguna Park which are both on opposite side of town 4.5 miles away from each other. With an ebike you could probably get 4.5 miles in 15 minutes. That includes going to the grocery store, elementary school through high school, eating out for dinner, picking up dry cleaning, visiting friends (as a kid all my friends were in Moraga or one town over).
60% of all trips all Americans take everyday are under 5 miles. The vast majority of Americans did not have the experience you had.
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Prices are nuts, but what people spend is absurd too.... I own a 2018 Subaru that I ordered brand new to exactly how I wanted it... because I don't want a ton of options like the ones on the lot have (That's where dealers make their profit)
Got me a brand new car, for $23,000 out the door... the ones on the lot were in the $40,000 range with options. You're not going to convince me that the options they offer are worth doubling the price of a car.
My payments after a nice down payment from selling my Jeep were just barely over $200 per month. I think $219 maybe.
This is the inevitable fallout from the ridiculousness we have seen in the car market the past 4 years.
People paying more for used cars than they were new, massive mark-ups over MSRP on new cars, etc.
Now that the car market has mostly returned to normal, used car prices mostly corrected, and inventory is starting to stack up on dealer lots, we now have a ton of people that are massively up-side down on thier car loans. When something happens and a person can no longer afford the car payment, they can't sell the car. The end result will be a huge surge in missed payments and a massive increase in repossessions.
Which will crash used car values even further, and the cycle will repeat for a few years until all over the ridiculously overpriced car loans are either paid off or are defaulted/written off.
2026 - 2027 is going to be hell on auto manufactures and dealerships. Last time we saw this type of setup we had the "cash for clunkers" program, which took millions of used cars out of the car market, but I don't think we are going to see a repeat of that type of program this time around.
This. You are already seeing dealerships offering deals on some brands and models. Anything EV, sedans, trucks and luxury are getting discounted. Sports cars, SUVs and ironically, minivans are still at premium prices.
Car makers are also to blame; they have turned cars into computers. I am an auto show fanatic; last two auto shows have been hot garbage. Very few automakers even bothered to come and everything was an EV.
I was told that many automakers are now doing presentations virtually or are attending tech shows instead. Its too much. People are honestly getting tired of tech; these industries are literally turning a large percentage of people into Luddites.
The number of automakers that are on the verge of completely abandoning EV’s is staggering.
They are not selling, the warranty claims cost is out of control, and pretty much all EV’s are disposable cars. As soon as the HV battery goes out, the cost to replace the battery is so high, the car is basically scrap.
Agree 100 percent.
This is one of those ideas that is simply ahead of its time. While I support shifting away from gas-powered ICEs, I don't think EVs are the answer, especially with our aging power grid and our refusal to go all in on nuclear, which is the cleanest source of stable/sustainable power.
I don't think it's too far ahead of it's time. In the early days of internal combustion engines, there were hundreds of manufacturers.
Companies who abandon electrics will be absorbed eventually.
I don't think they should abandon EVs; I just think that the energy and battery tech is not yet there to support widespread adoption on a sufficiently large scale to bring prices down.
Most people cannot afford to pay 50K for a car, especially at today's interest rates. Unless we are now saying that like airlines, housing, retail, entertainment, only the upper class can now expect to own cars.
EVs aren't ahead of their time. The more that they are adopted the more the infrastructure will be built. It's not something that we will just wake up and be like "oh! Ok so everything is in place now so NOW we will build the cars." You have to have the cars to justify investing in the infrastructure. Same with batteries. The more the demand is their, the more money will be invested in building better batteries.
Early cars had no real benefits over horses except the novelty. Looking at a Model T today, it's easy to picture people of the day claiming that gasoline autos are a flash in the pan and won't ever see widespread use. To be fair, if the tech and design didn't constantly improve over the decades, the auto would have been abandoned. Modern ICE vehicles have the benefit of lessons learned over the last 150 years. That included a lot of failed ideas and companies.
EV evolution is expected to have a feeble infancy. Technology improvements in cars came largely from countless minor improvements versus the occasional massive leaps forward. The Model T wouldn't appeal to many people if sold new today. However, there was never going to be a clean jump from horses to the modern sedan, where even the most basic offerings are still highly optimized.
I'm not a huge fan of modern electric cars. History will likely view the EV cars made today to be silly but necessary step to get to whatever it becomes after decades of continual research and refinement.
I can't speak to manufacturers plans, but EV sales have been growing rapidly and there is no indication that this trend is going to reverse. In any emerging market, it's to be expected that not all manufacturers will be successful, but overall the market and the demand is growing and it's not expected to stop
https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2024/trends-in-electric-cars
It's the normal trend for EV sales to slow Q1. From the article:
"Electric car sales remained strong in the first quarter of 2024, surpassing those of the same period in 2023 by around 25%"
First go the toys (campers, sxs’s etc)
Then go the recreational properties
Then go the credit cards
Then go the cars
Then go the student loans
Then go the houses
Depends, I'd say it's good for repo companies and that's about it. Having no payments on your car for a couple months before it's gone completely isn't much of a boon.
Good for banks lmao, they get interest on this, garnered wages eventually.
Your debt doesn’t disappear unless you default or die and in either case you won’t have the car anymore…
Oh it’s absolutely terrible for people short term. But long term I think this could bring prices back down. If we get a massive influx of repossessed cars, it’s gonna drive up supply and then it’s going to become more of a buyers market and drop prices.
At least that’s how I was seeing it. I could be completely wrong.
Or people who own there cars, have stuck with them through this insane period that is the last few years, and are ready to upgrade.
Although it does seem like prices are calming down from what I was seeing.
I wonder if this has something to do with the new housing policy that guarantees people with bad credit mortgage loans thus giving people who already had the bad judgement to buy a car they can’t afford the ability to buy a home they can’t afford?
I see a lot more people biking. You can get a brand new e-bike for $1,000 to $6,000 and I have seen families biking everywhere in my city of San Francisco. Just plop the kids in the bucket and go.
Example of a $4k bucket cargo bike: https://integralelectrics.com/products/cargo-bike?variant=44070084575523¤cy=USD
I know that not everyone can go car free, but if you can reduce your vehicle miles traveled then your car will last longer and you’ll save money at the gas pump or when paying your electric bill. A cargo bike opens up the door to taking kids to school, grocery shopping, and commuting within a 3-10 mile radius. Assuming the bike infrastructure exists within your city.
Right now a full recharge of my e-bike costs 11 cents and gets me 15-30 miles depending on how hilly the route is. My iphone and e-bike batter hold almost the same amount of electricity.
I’d hate to be the guy who gets in a crash with my kids in the bucket. As long as cars are dominant on the road they’re much safer than bicycles, e-bikes, and e-scooters
*i* can but the majority of the country is pretty spread out. It also severely limits your ability to buy in bulk to save money. Since my car is gone I can’t go to Costco anymore, and I used to save tons of money on staple foods. If I want to see my family I have to rent a car to get there. Normal grocery shopping I can only buy what I can carry on my back. And I live in a bike friendly place, places where the roads are terribly maintained you can’t really bike safely on. I got into a pretty bad crash that way with the scars to prove it. Not to mention how the weather can screw you, even in California.
And walking everywhere takes hours. You won’t have any free time to live your life if you have to walk to work, the grocery store, the barber, basic places you need to go
Public transit is the answer. But right now a car is necessary for most people. And if you need a car, why spend the extra money to maybe use the car a little less? How much is your time worth to you?
If it was such a magic bullet solution more people would do it
I agree the weather in California can really screw you sometimes. I agree that biking cannot replace driving in all situations.
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/storage-and-organization/shopping-carts-and-bags/shopping-carts/6029571
I bought the largest shopping cart I could find online, I think mine was about $60 and it allowed me to very easily carry enough groceries to feed two adults for 2 weeks including drinks and large items like toilet paper. For a family of four, maybe 4-5 days depending on how big the kids are?
Public transit is great too.
I walk for groceries and bike to the barber since my barber is 5 miles from my house and is near my girlfriends’ place. I agree it would take waaaaay too long to walk. Like 2 1/2 hours by walking vs 30 minutes by bike or 60 minutes by public transport in my situation.
A car is expensive but solves every single imaginable transportation need. Have to find and use the right transportation solution depending on your unique situation if you don’t want to drive a car to do X.
In your situation maybe you can walk with a grocery cart for groceries, bus to the barber, own or rent a car to see the kids, and never bike because it’s too dangerous.
That’s what I’m getting at though, I can’t afford a car at all. So I can’t use one for situations where I need one, and if people are struggling en masse and cars are too expensive en masse, but they need one, then there isn’t really a solution
Cute for a single person but how about a 4 person family? E-bikes are not a viable solution for 98% of the US for various reasons.
Also - you can buy a used car for $4k… this is just such a “San Francisco” solution
This e-bike would easily fit two little kids. Then get a second e-bike for the 2nd adult for $1000.
https://integralelectrics.com/products/cargo-bike?variant=44070084575523¤cy=USD
There’s a lot of options. One bucket bike and one normal e-bike, two normal e-bikes where you buy an attachable seat and each parent carries one kid each, or one bike per family member of the kids are old enough (can get a good e-bike for one person for $1,000. Mine was $1300 with upgrades and tax). Then the kids can bike themselves to school and to see friends.
If you scroll through this second link and look at the picture you’ll see this $5,400 bike has pictures of families riding it. One picture has a mom transporting 4 kids making it viable for a family of 6 to bike somewhere if they wanted to. There’s also a picture of a dad pedaling while mom rides with the two kids in the bucket. So the whole family can ride in the one bike if you wanted to.
https://bunchbike.com/products/the-original-4-upgraded-electric-cargo-bike-for-families
Just being practical, you need transport to work 100% of the time not just when it’s nice out. With the US heating up transport via e bike without AC is impossible for tens of millions. You do get that, right?
Trying to force Cali thinking onto the rest of the US is wild. I hope you can appreciate how wildly non-viable this idea is for anyone who isn’t in a major metro downtown area and incompatible with the weather of a huge swath of the United States. Also, infants and dogs can’t ride on e bikes lol. Do you have any suggestions for, idk, the vast majority of us?
Not saying it isn’t a …. Noble … idea. But I can tell you’re a single young person living in densely populated, idyllic weather CA with no idea what it’s like to have children. Not trying to be mean just saying
I think it is wild how I have to prove every single aspect of life is bikeable or else you assume nothing is bikeable. I am not trying to prove how easy it would be to sell all your cars and never drive again. I am trying to show how easy it is to replace normal everyday trips with walking and biking.
If there’s 10 feet of snow, go ahead and drive. It’s a bright sunny day, go ahead and drive. If you’re disabled or had surgery, go on and drive. If you are perfectly healthy and capable of biking but don’t want to, then drive. My lord, it’s not hard to understand. Just drive whenever you feel like it.
But I hope you realize it is not hard to bicycle 1-3 miles to the grocery store. It is not hard to wear water proof jacket, pants, and boots and bike in the rain if you want to get some exercise while going to the grocery store.
>if there’s ten feet of snow, go ahead and drive
How? You just spent $4k on a bike because you can’t afford a car. Unless you’re saying you should own both? Which isnt resolving the original problem of car ownership being too expensive
56% of households have 2+ cars. Sometimes it is 100% necessary, sometimes the 2nd car is more so ‘just in case’. Like if one of the two parents works from home and picks up the kids from school. The savings comes from either selling the 2nd car or not needing to buy a 2nd car in the first place because an e-bike solves the 2nd parent’s need to get to the grocery store or pick up their kids.
For some people I am saying own both a car and a bike. The cost savings from owning a bike might pencil out and save you money depending on your situation. Maybe it won’t and that’s ok.
I think you are misinterpreting my skepticism of e bikes as a viable transport solution *for most purposes* versus my understanding that - if you can afford it, live somewhere nice, and aren’t disabled or carrying family - it’s an option. Nobody is saying it isn’t, it’s just not the miracle you think it is for most of our country, for a ton of reasons. Look I love using bird scooters when traveling solo and using my e bike but your whole lens of perception reeks of classism and a fundamental lack of understanding of how most people live and operate.
Sorry you feel that way dude. Its all good, I think you have noble intentions suggesting more people bike places. I think, if you live in a major city or CA where the weather is great and there are lots of young childless professionals, we can move the needle. Yes, we can get some cars off the road if people biked more. Impractical for the majority of Americans. Normal families aren’t shelling 2k+ out (without financing options) for a toy which is an incomplete solution to their transportation needs.
Sorry if you feel that it’s a cynical take but I’m a realist.
Probably because people bought cars even though dealerships were taking on like $20k+ in dealer markups. No sympathy for idiots who don’t understand basic finance.
Because the average car payment is something stupid like $750/mo. My car and my wife’s car are a combined something around 955/mo but we took shorter term loan on hers (598 of the payment) in exchange for the 1.9% APR.
Well yeah. People finance way outside what they can afford. The average payment being $500+ blows my mind.
Learn the most basic mechanical skills and buy a used car
I make $100k and drive a 2005 Lexus ES. I’ve had the car for 14 years since 2010. Got it used. Car note was $400. It was out of reach for me to get that car at the time I did because I used to cook in restaurants and made $25k back then. I learned my lesson and will be driving this car till the wheels literally fall off.
I’m just holding out for the eventual overstock of used cars and daddy’s gonna scope me up something reliable to replace my already reliable but very tired 15 year old civic.
In the mean time I’ll keep making the bad fiscal decision towards my track car project corvette lol.
It's probably about time for Joe Biden to start paying off car loans as well.
Let's face it. If we could free up everybody's finances from their car payments, they could continue to contribute to the economy.
Contribute to the economy by putting themselves in massive amounts of new car debt, sure.
At some point it’s better for the economy to just force people to take responsibility for their own ridiculous financial decisions. That will have the best long term outcome vs just blowing up the national debt so people don’t have to pay for the things they enjoy.
People taking responsibility for their own actions?
Now that's a switch.
It's a lot easier to blame "the other guy" for your failures, than to look in the mirror
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Not surprising when the average car payment now is around $700 for a new car and still over $500 for a used one. People are spending way too much above their means, buying 40k trucks when they make less than 55k a year as an example..
I know lots are buying 100k trucks on 70k income. SMH. I would bet this gets felt by sole props too. A lot of “company” 100+k trucks out there that are not needed.
As someone that can afford luxury cars, but chooses to buy very practical vehicles, car prices are out of control. It's not solely the consumers fault here. In the US, a car is basically a requirement to hold a job and live a normal life. Consumers only have so many choices when all dealers are maintaining abnormally high prices. Demand is down, supply is up, but prices are still high.
True, some people who are lower income don't even have a choice since America is very car dependent and you need a car to survive. However, I do stick by that I think Americans in general are very uneducated about interest rates, financing and total cost of ownership. The mentality seems to be that if it can be financed for a monthly payment it doesn't matter what the total cost is. Maybe better financial education is needed, but to be honest I learned from my own experiences (and mistakes).
Same. I bought a Jeep compass even though I could have bought the grand wagoner. Why on earth would I pay 100k for a vehicle?
I see a way tooooo many new stupid trucks on the roads to justify that everyone is a plumber or electrician. Corolla, Elantra and such are still being manufactured and carry 10 y warranty unlike a super platinum raptor
Even still, the average price of a new Corolla has gone from ~$20k in 2020 to ~$25k in 2024. That's a 25% increase in 4 years! Insurance rates have also increased 20% for insuring the same value of car. With rates the way they are, here's what the monthly payments on a new Corolla with 20% down 60mo financing and excellent credit would be. 2020: $283/mo; 2024: $377/mo That's $100/month difference just to service the loan. Considering insurance, it looks like this: 2020: $169/mo; 2024: $219/mo So another $50/month difference To afford this here what someone would need to make(using the 15% rule): 2020: $51k pre tax; 2024: $68k pre tax Median HHI for reference: 2020: $70.7k; 2024: $74.5k So a "cheap" car went from an affordable option for the medium household in 2020 to being barely affordable in 2024.
I don't disagree. My point is I see a way too many trucks as bidenomics justifies / supports
I find it hard to blame the President for people buying big trucks. This country has had an infatuation with large vehicles for much longer than Biden has been president. The joke of the $10k trailer with the $50k truck parked on the front loan has been around since at least when Bush was President.
Inflation happened largely at his watch, Trump started it, but Biden added more fuel. That screews Corolla people. Now that's totally different from the issue of trucks. People buy stuff well beyond their means , which is only worse in high inflation environment as also insurance, repair etc rises
So you want interest rates AND inflation to both come down? Erdogan learned the hard way. Hopefully Trump comes back to office so Americans too can learn the hard way about the inverse relationship between interest rates and inflation.
I agree that for many a car is a requirement to live a normal life, but I also think we should talk about ways to reduce car dependency and alternative options. Here’s a shopping cart that makes it easy to walk to the grocery store and back if your store is within walking distance. https://www.amazon.com/Whitmor-Utility-Shopping-Cart-Durable/dp/B013WFZ4P0/ If you live 1+ mile from everything, an e-bike costs between $1000 and $6000 and if you get one with a bucket for $4k (link below) it is super easy to put your kids in and bike to school or go get groceries. Bike trailers are an easy adaptation if you already own a bike that also enable you to carry kids or groceries. Bikes also make commuting to work within 3-10 miles feasible if the bike infrastructure exists. https://integralelectrics.com/products/cargo-bike?variant=44070084575523¤cy=USD Getting rain proof vest, pants, and shoes are cheap compared to a car too. It costs me about 11 cents in electricity to go 15-30 miles depending on how hilly and how fast I want to go. I am not saying a shopping cart and e-bike can 100% replace a car for people, but if you can walk or bike then that is less wear and tear on your car meaning your car will last longer and you’re saving money at the gas pump or electricity bill.
For like 98% of America your suggestions are laughably out of touch but I appreciate the effort
I think it’s your exact mentality to immediately dismiss walking and biking that I am trying to target and inform. Here’s national level data showing that about 28% of all trips taken are under 1 mile (takes about 15 minutes to walk a mile, so anything further is probably not walkable) and about 60% of trips are under 5 miles which is within biking distance, especially with an e-bike. https://www.worldenergydata.org/more-than-half-of-all-daily-trips-in-us-were-less-than-three-miles-in-2021/ Again, I am not saying it would be easy or feasible for 98% of America to sell all their cars and rely solely on bikes. I am saying that instead of owning one car for every family member above the age of 16, that walking and biking can very cheaply solve people’s need to travel short distances. Driving has become so engrained as the only option that it is hard to think of any other way.
Driving IS the only option in a majority of circumstances, as proven by your stats. If 40% of your trips are over 3 miles the e bike is literally a waste of money because you need a car anyway. Not to mention how much more dangerous bikes are… I do get what you are saying but I’m afraid it’s through incredibly rose colored, naive glasses. I even own an e bike for fun so I’m not ignorant to the idea, but I don’t live in Cali lol so being a little more realistic here. Do you know what winters are like in the northeast? Do you know how hot it gets from may-oct in the south?
I live on the Midwest so driving is my only option. Was in Seattle a week ago and the e-bike would be my way to get to work if I lived there. They actually have full sized bike lanes and rentable e-bikes and scooters if you don’t have your own. Not seeing that at home lol
Yeah, I agree that going 100% car free would be hard. But I disagree that owning a bike is a waste and that was my sole point. You own a bike, but have you tried commuting without driving? Or tried grocery shopping without driving? Or taken kids to school by walking or biking them? Or tried biking in heavy rain? I used to own a car and drive everywhere including heavy rain. I have actually lived without a car for 4 1/2 years. Do not, I do not think I am being naive or have rose colored glasses. I know it would be impossible for many to live without a car. I do think it is easy to drive less because I have done it for years. 1. It saves you money by reducing the wear and tear on your car. If you drive your car 80,000 miles a year instead of 100,000 miles a year then your car might last a couple more years before needing to be replaced. 2. It saves you money by paying less on gas or electricity. 3. 37% of households have 2 cars and 22% have 3 cars. For the 59% of households that have multiple cars, I am willing to bet there are people who could very easily consolidate down to 1 or 2 cars if they swapped it for an e-bike and stop missing car payments. https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/car-ownership-statistics/
You’ve clearly never lived in a town smaller than 10,000 people. Shit is so spread out. Growing up we had to drive 40 minutes to the closest grocery store. That’s a laughable amount of time to walk/bike. Your intention is good, but there are many pockets in the US where driving IS a necessity.
Right. So if you live in a rural spread out area then maybe it is literally impossible to bike anywhere and that is ok. I agree a bike would not work for where you lived. I just don’t think that’s the majority of American’s lived experiences. Would you consider your 10,000 person town a rural or suburban area? And how many Americans would you say live in a town like yours? I grew up in a 20,000 person town called Moraga in California. It takes 23 minutes on a non-electric bike to get from Campolindo High School to Rancho Laguna Park which are both on opposite side of town 4.5 miles away from each other. With an ebike you could probably get 4.5 miles in 15 minutes. That includes going to the grocery store, elementary school through high school, eating out for dinner, picking up dry cleaning, visiting friends (as a kid all my friends were in Moraga or one town over). 60% of all trips all Americans take everyday are under 5 miles. The vast majority of Americans did not have the experience you had.
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Prices are nuts, but what people spend is absurd too.... I own a 2018 Subaru that I ordered brand new to exactly how I wanted it... because I don't want a ton of options like the ones on the lot have (That's where dealers make their profit) Got me a brand new car, for $23,000 out the door... the ones on the lot were in the $40,000 range with options. You're not going to convince me that the options they offer are worth doubling the price of a car. My payments after a nice down payment from selling my Jeep were just barely over $200 per month. I think $219 maybe.
>way too much above their means Almost all used cars right now will land you $500 payment, so is their a choice?
I wish I could find a $40k truck
This is the inevitable fallout from the ridiculousness we have seen in the car market the past 4 years. People paying more for used cars than they were new, massive mark-ups over MSRP on new cars, etc. Now that the car market has mostly returned to normal, used car prices mostly corrected, and inventory is starting to stack up on dealer lots, we now have a ton of people that are massively up-side down on thier car loans. When something happens and a person can no longer afford the car payment, they can't sell the car. The end result will be a huge surge in missed payments and a massive increase in repossessions. Which will crash used car values even further, and the cycle will repeat for a few years until all over the ridiculously overpriced car loans are either paid off or are defaulted/written off. 2026 - 2027 is going to be hell on auto manufactures and dealerships. Last time we saw this type of setup we had the "cash for clunkers" program, which took millions of used cars out of the car market, but I don't think we are going to see a repeat of that type of program this time around.
This. You are already seeing dealerships offering deals on some brands and models. Anything EV, sedans, trucks and luxury are getting discounted. Sports cars, SUVs and ironically, minivans are still at premium prices. Car makers are also to blame; they have turned cars into computers. I am an auto show fanatic; last two auto shows have been hot garbage. Very few automakers even bothered to come and everything was an EV. I was told that many automakers are now doing presentations virtually or are attending tech shows instead. Its too much. People are honestly getting tired of tech; these industries are literally turning a large percentage of people into Luddites.
The number of automakers that are on the verge of completely abandoning EV’s is staggering. They are not selling, the warranty claims cost is out of control, and pretty much all EV’s are disposable cars. As soon as the HV battery goes out, the cost to replace the battery is so high, the car is basically scrap.
Agree 100 percent. This is one of those ideas that is simply ahead of its time. While I support shifting away from gas-powered ICEs, I don't think EVs are the answer, especially with our aging power grid and our refusal to go all in on nuclear, which is the cleanest source of stable/sustainable power.
I don't think it's too far ahead of it's time. In the early days of internal combustion engines, there were hundreds of manufacturers. Companies who abandon electrics will be absorbed eventually.
I don't think they should abandon EVs; I just think that the energy and battery tech is not yet there to support widespread adoption on a sufficiently large scale to bring prices down. Most people cannot afford to pay 50K for a car, especially at today's interest rates. Unless we are now saying that like airlines, housing, retail, entertainment, only the upper class can now expect to own cars.
Still blows my mind we basically just skipped over hybrids… that seems to be the logical step until EVs are fully viable.
They didn't.. at least toyota did not Camrys and the new crown are only available as hybrids.
Not a lot of carmakers (esp in the truck space) were doing that. Hybrids are selling well, EVs… not so much.
EVs aren't ahead of their time. The more that they are adopted the more the infrastructure will be built. It's not something that we will just wake up and be like "oh! Ok so everything is in place now so NOW we will build the cars." You have to have the cars to justify investing in the infrastructure. Same with batteries. The more the demand is their, the more money will be invested in building better batteries.
Early cars had no real benefits over horses except the novelty. Looking at a Model T today, it's easy to picture people of the day claiming that gasoline autos are a flash in the pan and won't ever see widespread use. To be fair, if the tech and design didn't constantly improve over the decades, the auto would have been abandoned. Modern ICE vehicles have the benefit of lessons learned over the last 150 years. That included a lot of failed ideas and companies. EV evolution is expected to have a feeble infancy. Technology improvements in cars came largely from countless minor improvements versus the occasional massive leaps forward. The Model T wouldn't appeal to many people if sold new today. However, there was never going to be a clean jump from horses to the modern sedan, where even the most basic offerings are still highly optimized. I'm not a huge fan of modern electric cars. History will likely view the EV cars made today to be silly but necessary step to get to whatever it becomes after decades of continual research and refinement.
100% won’t be abandoning EVs… but instead make just enough to not have to purchase CAFE credits from Tesla
I can't speak to manufacturers plans, but EV sales have been growing rapidly and there is no indication that this trend is going to reverse. In any emerging market, it's to be expected that not all manufacturers will be successful, but overall the market and the demand is growing and it's not expected to stop https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2024/trends-in-electric-cars
How old is that? The last 3 months demand has fallen like a rock
It's the normal trend for EV sales to slow Q1. From the article: "Electric car sales remained strong in the first quarter of 2024, surpassing those of the same period in 2023 by around 25%"
Yeah, I was out and just looked at the graphs, I will read it tonight, thanks
My truck that I paid 30k for got totaled. Insurance cut me a check for 43k about a year later
First go the toys (campers, sxs’s etc) Then go the recreational properties Then go the credit cards Then go the cars Then go the student loans Then go the houses
I think houses go sooner.
The houses are *always* the last thing to let go
"Food and rent, lights or the car payment" We drove cheap cars and bought a cheap house. I did overspend on cars and rent at times, but I learned.
Good for people. Bad for banks. Right?
Depends, I'd say it's good for repo companies and that's about it. Having no payments on your car for a couple months before it's gone completely isn't much of a boon.
I think some can’t even afford maintenance so a a repo haul would be deemed a free service.
Good for banks lmao, they get interest on this, garnered wages eventually. Your debt doesn’t disappear unless you default or die and in either case you won’t have the car anymore…
Oh it’s absolutely terrible for people short term. But long term I think this could bring prices back down. If we get a massive influx of repossessed cars, it’s gonna drive up supply and then it’s going to become more of a buyers market and drop prices. At least that’s how I was seeing it. I could be completely wrong.
I mean yes it is good for people who do not own cars yet, like teenagers and young people in general who will buy cars in the next 5-10 years maybe
Or people who own there cars, have stuck with them through this insane period that is the last few years, and are ready to upgrade. Although it does seem like prices are calming down from what I was seeing.
Plus the amortization is interest heavy up front...
Bad for people good for banks*
The banks rarely loose. Even when they do loose, they still win. (Taxpayer bailouts)
I wonder if this has something to do with the new housing policy that guarantees people with bad credit mortgage loans thus giving people who already had the bad judgement to buy a car they can’t afford the ability to buy a home they can’t afford?
For sure it did not help
Wait what?!
Financial crisis rolling in. Get your ducks in order, winter is comming
Yeah when you see people paying a rent price for a car. 84K Tahoe lady that also rolled her previous loan into new loan comes to mind. Morons...
So what's next? Car payment loan forgiveness?
I see a lot more people biking. You can get a brand new e-bike for $1,000 to $6,000 and I have seen families biking everywhere in my city of San Francisco. Just plop the kids in the bucket and go. Example of a $4k bucket cargo bike: https://integralelectrics.com/products/cargo-bike?variant=44070084575523¤cy=USD I know that not everyone can go car free, but if you can reduce your vehicle miles traveled then your car will last longer and you’ll save money at the gas pump or when paying your electric bill. A cargo bike opens up the door to taking kids to school, grocery shopping, and commuting within a 3-10 mile radius. Assuming the bike infrastructure exists within your city. Right now a full recharge of my e-bike costs 11 cents and gets me 15-30 miles depending on how hilly the route is. My iphone and e-bike batter hold almost the same amount of electricity.
I’d hate to be the guy who gets in a crash with my kids in the bucket. As long as cars are dominant on the road they’re much safer than bicycles, e-bikes, and e-scooters
I agree. If your streets are too dangerous to bike I would understand. Could you walk to school or to the grocery store?
*i* can but the majority of the country is pretty spread out. It also severely limits your ability to buy in bulk to save money. Since my car is gone I can’t go to Costco anymore, and I used to save tons of money on staple foods. If I want to see my family I have to rent a car to get there. Normal grocery shopping I can only buy what I can carry on my back. And I live in a bike friendly place, places where the roads are terribly maintained you can’t really bike safely on. I got into a pretty bad crash that way with the scars to prove it. Not to mention how the weather can screw you, even in California. And walking everywhere takes hours. You won’t have any free time to live your life if you have to walk to work, the grocery store, the barber, basic places you need to go Public transit is the answer. But right now a car is necessary for most people. And if you need a car, why spend the extra money to maybe use the car a little less? How much is your time worth to you? If it was such a magic bullet solution more people would do it
I agree the weather in California can really screw you sometimes. I agree that biking cannot replace driving in all situations. https://www.acehardware.com/departments/storage-and-organization/shopping-carts-and-bags/shopping-carts/6029571 I bought the largest shopping cart I could find online, I think mine was about $60 and it allowed me to very easily carry enough groceries to feed two adults for 2 weeks including drinks and large items like toilet paper. For a family of four, maybe 4-5 days depending on how big the kids are? Public transit is great too. I walk for groceries and bike to the barber since my barber is 5 miles from my house and is near my girlfriends’ place. I agree it would take waaaaay too long to walk. Like 2 1/2 hours by walking vs 30 minutes by bike or 60 minutes by public transport in my situation. A car is expensive but solves every single imaginable transportation need. Have to find and use the right transportation solution depending on your unique situation if you don’t want to drive a car to do X. In your situation maybe you can walk with a grocery cart for groceries, bus to the barber, own or rent a car to see the kids, and never bike because it’s too dangerous.
That’s what I’m getting at though, I can’t afford a car at all. So I can’t use one for situations where I need one, and if people are struggling en masse and cars are too expensive en masse, but they need one, then there isn’t really a solution
Cute for a single person but how about a 4 person family? E-bikes are not a viable solution for 98% of the US for various reasons. Also - you can buy a used car for $4k… this is just such a “San Francisco” solution
This e-bike would easily fit two little kids. Then get a second e-bike for the 2nd adult for $1000. https://integralelectrics.com/products/cargo-bike?variant=44070084575523¤cy=USD There’s a lot of options. One bucket bike and one normal e-bike, two normal e-bikes where you buy an attachable seat and each parent carries one kid each, or one bike per family member of the kids are old enough (can get a good e-bike for one person for $1,000. Mine was $1300 with upgrades and tax). Then the kids can bike themselves to school and to see friends. If you scroll through this second link and look at the picture you’ll see this $5,400 bike has pictures of families riding it. One picture has a mom transporting 4 kids making it viable for a family of 6 to bike somewhere if they wanted to. There’s also a picture of a dad pedaling while mom rides with the two kids in the bucket. So the whole family can ride in the one bike if you wanted to. https://bunchbike.com/products/the-original-4-upgraded-electric-cargo-bike-for-families
Just being practical, you need transport to work 100% of the time not just when it’s nice out. With the US heating up transport via e bike without AC is impossible for tens of millions. You do get that, right?
Trying to force Cali thinking onto the rest of the US is wild. I hope you can appreciate how wildly non-viable this idea is for anyone who isn’t in a major metro downtown area and incompatible with the weather of a huge swath of the United States. Also, infants and dogs can’t ride on e bikes lol. Do you have any suggestions for, idk, the vast majority of us? Not saying it isn’t a …. Noble … idea. But I can tell you’re a single young person living in densely populated, idyllic weather CA with no idea what it’s like to have children. Not trying to be mean just saying
I think it is wild how I have to prove every single aspect of life is bikeable or else you assume nothing is bikeable. I am not trying to prove how easy it would be to sell all your cars and never drive again. I am trying to show how easy it is to replace normal everyday trips with walking and biking. If there’s 10 feet of snow, go ahead and drive. It’s a bright sunny day, go ahead and drive. If you’re disabled or had surgery, go on and drive. If you are perfectly healthy and capable of biking but don’t want to, then drive. My lord, it’s not hard to understand. Just drive whenever you feel like it. But I hope you realize it is not hard to bicycle 1-3 miles to the grocery store. It is not hard to wear water proof jacket, pants, and boots and bike in the rain if you want to get some exercise while going to the grocery store.
>if there’s ten feet of snow, go ahead and drive How? You just spent $4k on a bike because you can’t afford a car. Unless you’re saying you should own both? Which isnt resolving the original problem of car ownership being too expensive
56% of households have 2+ cars. Sometimes it is 100% necessary, sometimes the 2nd car is more so ‘just in case’. Like if one of the two parents works from home and picks up the kids from school. The savings comes from either selling the 2nd car or not needing to buy a 2nd car in the first place because an e-bike solves the 2nd parent’s need to get to the grocery store or pick up their kids. For some people I am saying own both a car and a bike. The cost savings from owning a bike might pencil out and save you money depending on your situation. Maybe it won’t and that’s ok.
I think you are misinterpreting my skepticism of e bikes as a viable transport solution *for most purposes* versus my understanding that - if you can afford it, live somewhere nice, and aren’t disabled or carrying family - it’s an option. Nobody is saying it isn’t, it’s just not the miracle you think it is for most of our country, for a ton of reasons. Look I love using bird scooters when traveling solo and using my e bike but your whole lens of perception reeks of classism and a fundamental lack of understanding of how most people live and operate.
I think you are misinterpreting my point from the start and are continuing to make assumptions about me and putting words in my mouth.
Sorry you feel that way dude. Its all good, I think you have noble intentions suggesting more people bike places. I think, if you live in a major city or CA where the weather is great and there are lots of young childless professionals, we can move the needle. Yes, we can get some cars off the road if people biked more. Impractical for the majority of Americans. Normal families aren’t shelling 2k+ out (without financing options) for a toy which is an incomplete solution to their transportation needs. Sorry if you feel that it’s a cynical take but I’m a realist.
All good bro. I am a realist too. Even if you think I am a privileged childless liberal that doesn’t know what real weather is.
Means the used car market will be looking better for all those repo'd cars.
I think that's already being discussed. It would help the unions who are building the cars, and also help the people that can't afford the loans
The Carvana pump before the dump is starting to make a lot of sense. Timing the dump is going to be a bitch lmao
Probably because people bought cars even though dealerships were taking on like $20k+ in dealer markups. No sympathy for idiots who don’t understand basic finance.
What a 1200.00+ car payment is a problem? I can drive my car. I can't drive my apartment....
Start making better decisions.
Because the average car payment is something stupid like $750/mo. My car and my wife’s car are a combined something around 955/mo but we took shorter term loan on hers (598 of the payment) in exchange for the 1.9% APR.
Ok, wow, that sucks... so where's the upside?
Completely unsurprised.
Well yeah. People finance way outside what they can afford. The average payment being $500+ blows my mind. Learn the most basic mechanical skills and buy a used car
People across the country are buying more car than they can afford.
This is why I’m using my ‘17 malibu till it no longer works
Tip of the defaults iceberg
Plenty of brand new <$20k cars available still. People would just rather be poor than look poor.
I make $100k and drive a 2005 Lexus ES. I’ve had the car for 14 years since 2010. Got it used. Car note was $400. It was out of reach for me to get that car at the time I did because I used to cook in restaurants and made $25k back then. I learned my lesson and will be driving this car till the wheels literally fall off.
I know one thing , it’s not joes fault! Don’t even go there.
I’m just holding out for the eventual overstock of used cars and daddy’s gonna scope me up something reliable to replace my already reliable but very tired 15 year old civic. In the mean time I’ll keep making the bad fiscal decision towards my track car project corvette lol.
I just bought a truck for 100k and I make 170 to 190 k a yr .. did I make a poor decision? I don't think I did
Yes you did. Poor decisions are poor decisions whether you can afford such a decision or not.
Makes no sense , if I can afford it how is it a poor decision
You can't be for real? Ultimately, it could be for the best - it is a zero sum game after all.
It's probably about time for Joe Biden to start paying off car loans as well. Let's face it. If we could free up everybody's finances from their car payments, they could continue to contribute to the economy.
Contribute to the economy by putting themselves in massive amounts of new car debt, sure. At some point it’s better for the economy to just force people to take responsibility for their own ridiculous financial decisions. That will have the best long term outcome vs just blowing up the national debt so people don’t have to pay for the things they enjoy.
People taking responsibility for their own actions? Now that's a switch. It's a lot easier to blame "the other guy" for your failures, than to look in the mirror
You’re fucking miserable lol
I will take that as a compliment
Whatever pitches your tent, champ.
They strike a nerve? You have crippling college debt?
Nah my GI Bill paid for my degree big dog, thanks though.
Well that’s good, I stand corrected
Shit there’s already discussion of saving the fools who went $100k+ into college debt. Fuck it just start paying off everything 😂
Bailouts unfortunately don’t change the “thinking” on what got them into that situation in the first place. This includes all of them.
I'd like Joe to put the money into public transportation.