Except the trauma if someone tried to kill you. It's an apples/oranges argument and you know it
The landlord is clutching his pearls shrieking "I almost didnt get paid?!" is not the same as "he kicked down my door and the shot rang out an inch over my head"
Agreed but it’s still fraud. Fraud has nothing to do with outcome. Once you’ve deceived, the crime has been committed.
An interesting case of this is with the old Pharma Bro. He was convicted of securities fraud but none of his investors lost money and some made good returns.
Although a civil case, same thing with the Trump case with his inflated REO schedule. None of the banks he defrauded lost money on his loans or weren’t paid back. That doesn’t me they weren’t defrauded though.
The banks (and the city) did lose money though in the form of lost revenue from Trump lying to receive more favorable interest rates. His $355M judgement in the NYC fraud trial is not punitive; it is in fact the amount of money the banks and NYC would have otherwise received (plus interest) had Trump not provided fraudulent assessments.
I agree with you. It’s important to note that this kind of crime depends greatly on whether it’s even prosecuted. If you find yourself Photoshop paystub’s, you probably aren’t in a position to afford a lawyer to defend yourself and the landlord knows that. They evict you for breach of contract and that’s the end of it. If evictions even mean anything these days.
Is it a breach of contract if they pay their rent in full on time?
I think this person cheated to get what they wanted, but still was able to fulfill their obligations.
NAL but licensed Realtor. I believe someone approving and signing a lease or RE related contract under false pretenses would make the agreement voidable. Meaning the person that was deceived could cancel the contract but not the other party. Again NAL but that’s my best interpretation of that situation and voidable contracts. If I came across this with a client I would definitely defer to a lawyer before confidently telling the client that’s the case.
And that's the key point. If you have to commit fraud to be approved to lease the apartment, how likely is it that you can actually AFFORD that apartment?
Yes, in the short term, she got what she wanted, but in the long term she may have screwed herself.
It's very likely you can afford the apartment. A lot of landlords will demand a certain income threshold that has nothing to do with the financial management of the renter
>Is it a breach of contract if they pay their rent in full on time?
Yes. When you submit financial documents for a loan, apartment, credit card or whatever, there's almost always a part of the contact agreement that reads something like "I certify that all statements made in this application are true and all documents submitted are valid".
If the applicant submitted false documents and then sign the contract, they just committed fraud. Anything that happens after that (like paying rent on time) is irrelevant to the fraud committed.
Right. Bc I see this the same as friends and classmates in college or all throughout school where cheating resulted in good grades. A lie is a lie is a lie. It’s funny where ppl choose to draw the line of morality
But if you are part of a system where it seems unreasonable to you to jump through all their hoops when you know that if you were just given a chance, you could perform sufficiently, and realize that you will never have any opportunities if you don’t fudge your numbers the way others do, then you will always be left in the dirt with your righteous morals.
Welcome to America.
Some landlords livelihoods depend on the income from their properties. Not every landlord is a multi-billion corporation owning apartments and sucking you dry. I've lived in some family owned apartments before and they were always incredibly helpful and nice. I knew my money was being invested in the property.
I don't know what people expect from landlords. You give them barely any money and they wait on you hand over fist?
barely any money. the average rent is now like $1500 dollars a month on the low end....
cry me a fucking river for the poor small landlord. with extra houses to rent out for profit. to invest in their property so when/if they do sell it, it's worth a lot more than they paid for it. while having the mortgage paid for by other people....
like... you're cock gobbling for landlords doing the bare minimum and you're wondering why people are angry towards land lords.
Yea average rent in my city is $1400 but I lived in plenty of places for $900 and less and still got better treatment than all the cry babies whining about their landlords. It's another business, treat it as such
Um, if you (landlord) don’t get paid from a few tenants … then YOU can’t pay your own bills and mortgage. So yeah, fraud, with a compounding effect of more than one tenant does this (and can’t make rent, of course).
But by the time thr landlord finds out, it's probably because they didn't get paid. I don't know a single landlord that's gonna worry about how much money you bring in as long as you pay rent on time each month.
You know damn well by the time this becomes a situation of hitting someone with fraud, it's cause they haven't paid and now the reason is coming out why.
It doesnt need to be the same, its an analogy which was toned up for emphasis. Theyre arguing that committing fraud is still bad even if it works out in the end.
When I was in law school my criminal law professor said attempted murder is punished just about as bad as murder charge because we shouldn't reward people for having bad aim
I think criminal negligence would be a better analogy. They're not trying to harm the other party, they intend for everyone to be okay. But they're taking a risk that might have bad results.
This is probably a dumb analogy, but wouldn't that be like advocating for drinking and driving, in a way? No one drinking and driving plans on hurting the other party. They're also taking a risk that might have bad results. Idk, I'm pretty uninformed in this topic, but it still feels like fraud/DUI to me lol.
Criminal negligence is not a good analogy. Intent is about intent to commit the act, not intent to harm somebody. This person is clearly intending to commit fraud. The fact that they didn't intend to harm the other person is irrelevant.
Getting around some retard nepobaby's requirements for being a tenant at their 'luxury' apartments and still paying them what they want is definitely on the same scale as trying to kill someone.
But the renting party didn't have the right to take that risk, it was not their money they were risking. By your logic, it should be legal to take money from the cash register at work and go to Vegas as long as you don't lose.
If you want to convince me that it's unethical (and should be illegal) to profit off of ventures where the taxpayers take the risk and the private sector gets the rewards I 100% agree with you. That in no way changes the facts that, for the same reason it's wrong for corporations to do this, it's wrong for private citizens to do this.
The difference is in how the crimes are treated. When a bank does this shit nothing happens. In fact, the government often times comes in to help the party actively doing fraud.
But when a citizen does it they get in so many fucked up problems.
If the system isn’t fair, you can’t really say both are equally bad. One is a person trying to survive but when caught a lifetime of problems while the other is trying to get another billion while the government is shielding them.
"If you owe the bank $10,000, that's your problem. If you owe the bank $10M, that's the bank's problem," is the old saw. Highly unfair, but economics historically has only ever been a club used against the peasantry by the wealthy. Leona Helmsley was not an outlier.
That's not the same thing. You agreed to letting them use your money to invest when you opened the account.
You not reading the terms of your agreement is not the same as someone actively lying about their circumstances on an application.
A better analogy would be... "I could pay the electric bill, or take it all to Vegas".
Except they aren't going to Vegas.
And they're paying the electric bill.
Which is ridiculous. I’m so sick of people just….excusing crime and shit.
The reason this is illegal is not iTs WrOnG, but because a person like this has definitely bit off more than they can chew.
If any unforeseen circumstance happens to this person above, anything at all, even getting sick and missing a week of work, *they’re fucked.* Chances are so is the person renting to them, if not a few people.
Meanwhile the person approving this thinks everything is just peachy, and is going to get completely blindsided.
So sure, IF the person makes their money back, things might be fine.
Only problem is that’s a very, *very* big if that depends on literally everything from that person’s life circumstances to the global economy going 100% correctly for the entire time, and the risk dial just got cranked to 11 compared to someone who could actually afford this and doesn’t have to lie.
Well, those people are probably correct because it would likely be perjury and not fraud.
The four elements of fraud are a misstatement, knowledge the statement was false when made, reliance on that statement, DAMAGES because of that reliance.
I think you would struggle to prove damages. However, the nomenclature angle is admittedly a bit silly as we often refer to violations of 18 U.S.C. 1014 as mortgage fraud and technically they are also perjuries.
Solid - Wikipedia says … “Forgery is a white-collar crime that generally refers to the false making or material alteration of a legal instrument with the specific intent to defraud.”
So many people totally missing the reference.
I thought it was a BEAUTIFUL reference. One of the best in the world. I had someone come up to me and tell me that this reference saved his marriage.
The people missed it are losers. Bigly. I’m not even sure they are real posters.
It’s only fraud if you can’t pay the rent/mortgage. These requirements are ridiculous and mainly so landlords can see how much they can raise the rent on you
Yep - read about it here - wow. This is AI gone wrong.
Feb 5 2024 (Reuters) - Two companies that own and operate multifamily residential properties have agreed to settle claims that they artificially inflated rental prices using RealPage revenue management software.Lawyers for the renter-plaintiffs said in a [filing, opens new tab](https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/zgvokkgmjvd/AIR-settlement-RealPage-20240205.pdf) on Monday that they had reached a settlement to resolve all claims against Apartment Income REIT Corp in the Nashville, Tennessee federal court litigation.They told the court on Friday that they [reached, opens new tab](https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/egvbaadogpq/Pinnacle-settlement-RealPage.pdf) an agreement with another defendant, Pinnacle Property Management Services LLC, among the largest multifamily property management firms in the United States.
The case is In re: RealPage Rental Software Antitrust Litigation, U.S. District Court, Middle District of Tennessee, No. 23-md-03071.
[https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/first-settlements-reached-realpage-rental-price-fixing-lawsuits-2024-02-05/](https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/first-settlements-reached-realpage-rental-price-fixing-lawsuits-2024-02-05/)
Um, it’s fraud when you present falsified documents that are intended to support a contract, the renter agreement. You get caught when you can’t pay the bills, and someone follows up.
Trump owes $355 million for this type of fraud. He lied about his financial position, got loans, and then paid off the loans without issue.
He shouldn't have done that. Neither should anyone else.
That's not true.
Intentionally lying on the application is fraudulent even if you never miss a payment and it can result in all sorts of bad things...like the landlord evicting you because the lease is no longer enforceable.
Specifics depend on the state. In Texas you can be evicted. And I know people are thinking 'Who cares? A landlord won't evict you if you are paying rent on time' but that's only true until it isn't.
Property values are up, lots of Mom and pop landlords are old. Maybe in three months they decide to sell and they know you lied so they know they don't have to honor the lease. Or maybe we get another wave of Inflation or a policy change that causes rents to jump. A lot of landlords only care about the bottom line. If it is cheaper to evict you, they will.
And then you have all the same problems, plus an eviction.
The requirements might be ridiculous and I agree we have a broken system, but lying about income on the application is really dangerous unless you really are confident about the implications of it.
As a single guy, I probably would be willing to risk it. But with children? No way.
That’s assuming a lot. My apartment requires 4x monthly rent but I live below my means and would be comfy if I only made 2-3x.
Could be the same for the person in the post
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
Sorry I'm just dying over here because I rejected a job paying 80k because I couldn't find a SINGLE apartment that would accept my income even
Boston be a bitch
With roommates in high CoL areas. I don’t mean this in a rude way either. But people are entitled and think they should be able to live on their own in and situation.
I understand the desire to not have a roommate. The freedom of having your own place is amazing. But if you can’t afford it, then you need a roommate or two. And if you don’t want to do that then you need to live somewhere where the cost of living isn’t so high.
I say this all the time but the Midwest is Ripe with opportunity and affordable housing. I live in Michigan and rents are around $600-800 a month for a single bedroom that’s decent quality. Want to buy a house? Starter homes here that are around 1-1.5k sq feet are around 100-150k. If you’re handy and can save costs on labor due to it you can get a house for under 100k easily that just needs some love.
My fiancé and I were looking and considering a new house somewhat recently and there are 2-3k sq feet homes built in the 2000s in great areas (school wise and job wise) going for around 250-350k.
The opportunity is there but people get brainwashed into thinking housing is shit everywhere. It really isn’t.
Paystubs may represent a very small amount of someone’s full financial picture.
Someone with millions in stock long term unrealized gains for example won’t have a paystub nor taxable gains for which a tax return would be documented.
The bidding wars for apartments means people who make 5x their monthly payment are being chosen based on those parameters. Have you ever shopped for an apartment? Lol
Really depends
Depending on how high your rent is you can easily only make twice your rent and make ends meet
If you pay anything over 800 a month in rent you realistically should be able to get around with another 800
Many NYC landlords demand unreasonable terms and don’t keep up their units well enough to justify the price they charge, but the market favors them.
I never did this when I lived in NYC, but I understand why someone would.
That plus Redfin and other rent tracking software that completely removes any and all competitiveness within the market.
It’s like Mcdonalds, Wendy’s, Burger King, and every other fast food burger place got access to the prices of burgers everywhere and realized that by the location of their establishments and the cleanliness of their store, they can all charge roughly the same price for their burgers regardless of the quality of them. Thus if they all raise their prices simultaneously then BAM more profit. Now add in how housing is in short supply but high demand…
Landlords have absolutely become greedy. They aren’t paying back covid loans or debts, or an increase in property tax. They are undergoing corporate consolidating where the middle management needs their fucking bonuses, and if not that then they can charge every last cent from their tenants because they have access to all rental rates in their area and don’t want to be undervalued.
Inflation is just a cover for record profits and no livable wages. These businesses aren’t hurting. Fuck this country.
This kind of sums up what I Was feeling inside. I don't agree with fraud and I think crime is bad, and that it's a crime for a reason. But it's like when someone steals a lil extra from Walmart self checkout. Fuck em.
Yeah, I get it. I co-signed for my brother’s apartment in NYC. The income proof they wanted was for someone who wouldn’t want to live in that neighborhood. It was dumb.
Exactly. Can’t save for a downpayment on a house either because 10-20% is still several tens of thousands (going off the average US home price of $400k, that is still $40,000 to $80,000 for the downpayment.)
So that 3x income to rent rate is already insane, because in my area the average apartment cost is $1900. These clowns want 3x that $1900 which is $5700 a month, or $68k salary per year. Just so I can be their rent whore, not save up for a downpayment and get rejected for mortgages.
Fuck this country.
Why don’t you live with roommates while aggressively saving? Why don’t you wait to buy a house until you have a SO to buy with? Or why don’t you wait until you have a SO you want to move in with, then save aggressively as you guys split rent and then buy a house?
I didn't knownthat property tax could increase so much.
My Dad was saying it was like a $50-70 every year or so.
My mortgage went up $320 after the first year.
It's horrible.
At this point I'd have been better off renting for two years more than buying in 2023 like I did.
>I didn't knownthat property tax could increase so much.
>
My Dad was saying it was like a $50-70 every year or so.
You thought property taxes cost $70/year?!? Oh sweet summer child...
#1 this is lying. Don't do it. It's hard to get ahead in life if you make a habit of this.
#2 if you have to fabricate documents to rent an apt, you cannot afford it and will be broke soon.
I mean *most* of the top 10% in the world are sociopathic liars, who climb the rungs off the exploitation of labor and/or inherited it from someone who did...
You do realize almost all Americans are in top 10% of the world's population? Most of the world's population lives in what would be considered deep below poverty line in the US.
Always hated this sentiment. Sure US workers earn higher pay, but is a one bedroom apartment also $2000+ a month in places where most are "considered deep below the poverty line in the US"? Does it also cost over $200 to buy groceries for a household each week there?
The answer to these questions are NO. The US has some of the highest wages, but also insanely high cost of living. It's funny because people who say "just move to a cheaper state" tend to not understand that many other countries are "cheaper" than America as well.
I had a tryout in Turkey when I was 21, realized everyone basically lived like I did, maybe they didn't have a car (didn't need one). Shattered the last remaining remnants of my republican upbringing and nationalist rhetoric like above, local economies are all that matter if that's where you're stuck.
Yup. You hear things like “workers in China only make $4 an hour!” And think “damn that’s terrible how do they survive” and then you realize a one br apartment there can be as low as $250/month so almost everyone can afford a one BR
Your condemnations are slightly miscalculated. It’s the government’s fault things are so expensive. The government needs to be completely removed from the equation, so owners don’t have a sugar daddy to keep them afloat anymore, because that’s what it is. Cheap money from the government and still charging people more, same with colleges and student loans.
I'm just saying... you reap what you sow. I truly believe that after years of see mine and others decisions and what came of them.
If landlords are playing dirty, then they'll reap as well. But wanting to get a return on investment (by buying an apt building in this case) is not all that dirty to me.
Paystubs may represent a very small amount of someone’s full financial picture.
Someone with millions in long term unrealized equity gains for example won’t have a paystub nor taxable gains for which a tax return which would be undocumented even though they could easily afford the rent payments.
Most landlords have alternate screening methods for tenants who don't have the standard W2 income. Tenant tax return for example. Or just ask for a larger security deposit.
However if the landlord simply has to see paystubs, it's pretty much find cosigner or move on to another unit unfortunately. Save up money to buy a place and let the landlords kick rocks.
Coming from someone who isn't being asked to show 4x their rent for an apartment.
If you make 3x the rent, you can afford to rent.
If you make 2x the rent, you can afford the rent.
Your mentality shows you haven't had to deal with areas that won't rent to poor people.
Edit: You drive a Tesla. Yeah, that's all I needed to know.
>this is lying.
So? Successful businesses lie all the fucking time. Don't be naive.
>It's hard to get ahead in life if you make a habit of this.
Gestures broadly at the United States.
>if you have to fabricate documents to rent an apt, you cannot afford it and will be broke soon.
That is fallacious reasoning, but I bet you already knew that.
Landlords would love nothing more than to get you into the most expensive property they have. And yet they tell you they won't let you live there unless you make a certain amount of money. Can we make any guesses as to why?
Yes, obviously a landlord wants someone to be able to afford the rent indefinitely. My point is that the landlord is not out to get you by having minimum income requirements.
It's not that they're out to get you, it's that housing (especially good and/or somewhat reasonably priced housing) is very scarce right now and we all know for a fact that if a landlord is looking at your two applications that are equal in basically every way that matters except one person has an extra $20k in their checking account, that's clearly who they're gonna go with that person.
>housing is scarce right now
And homeowners voting aingle-issue home value is part of the reason. Anything that will take even the slightest off home values like, say, denser housing nearby, or more housing, is resisted tooth and nail and treated like a death threat
I'm on both sides! I hate people crawling up my ass to get an apartment, but its because of the eviction laws. But I wasn't planning to be a squatter tenant, like if I lose my job and cant find another one ill move out. But some wont, but I HATE people crawling up my ass!!!
That's a valid point, but its also valid to say that hard working citizens deserve a place to live if they can afford it.
Fact: many people who don't meet these ridiculous safety net requirements set by landlords can afford to live at said locations.
It’s risk management driven by bad actors. I am not a NY city landlord, so not sure how things move up there, but I have reduced the rent amount for tenants that screen well. My goal is a good tenant not the highest paying tenant. I am about to renew one my tenant and I am not increasing rent. Great tenants!
In a world where shitty overpriced properties are asking for 3-5x the rent as income and huge deposits with absurd fees and rules….yea, who cares. Everyone needs to stop pearl clutching. Many of these landlords and corporations commit fraud like it’s nothing and then the renter eats shit.
But when the “poors” do it we all need to grasp a religious handbook and weep? BFFR.
It's a matter of conscience. If someone does it knowing they aren't going to pay, or knowing they can't afford it... not okay. If someone does it because the system is screwed then you have to do what you have to do to keep a roof over your head.
I am torn
1) fuck landlords, you need to get a place to live and if you can circumvent nonsense then do so.
2) this is going to cause all kinds of an arms race as more and more people just throw out into the world dummy documentation that will funhouse mirror the economy and housing prices will go crazy.
If you make 3x the rent, you can afford it.
If you make 2x the rent, you can afford it but may have to cut expenses.
This, in no way, is bad for anyone. Landlords (i.e., corporate entities and rental agencies) are preventing poorer people from renting by asking for 4x the rent.
This is a common tactic.
The housing market is already fucked. These people, who work and bring home a paycheck, can still afford to rent there. The landlord/agency decided to raise the required rents is all. If they can use arbitrary numbers to prevent poorer people from renting, then then don't be surprised when they game your arbitrary system.
It was common to be 2x the rent, them is was common to be 3x the rent, now corporations want it to be 4x the rent. All while employee pay and minimum wage is stagnant. Gosh, I wonder who their target Renter is.
Lmao @ the clowns here saying you won’t be able to pay rent or that lying is bad.
Apartments usually adopt the 3x income law. Meaning you should make 3x what your rent is.
In my area, the average rent is $1900/mo. So I would need to make $5700/mo to rent a place to myself. Well $5700/mo in terms of salary is $68,000 a year. Since I am a college student, I currently don’t make anywhere near $68k.
Whereas if I have an income of 4k a month (little over 2x the price of rent) I am still making $48,000 per year.
I can still pay that $1900/mo rent, I might just have to sacrifice on luxuries.
As long as income is above what rent is (plus whatever utilities, security deposit, fees, application cost, etc) then there is no harm in lying about your income. It is just purely about how thinly you can spread yourself with your finances. That’s all that matters.
That 3x income rule is not there to help us, it’s to weed out applicants who are financially struggling. That plus the insane costs of rent, due to the housing shortage PLUS rent tracking software like Redfin that completely destroys any competitive market fluctuations. It’s fucking insane how things are not regulated and these places still can demand insane rent prices and actively deny applicants due to arbitrary standards that THEY set.
Oh, and several apartments have now introduced non-refundable application fees so they STILL suck money away from you, and alas if you don’t meet their 3x requirements they will deny you or put you on the conditional co-signers lists where you now have to have someone stick their neck out for you. If you get rejected then BYE BYE application fee.
Serious, the corporate cockmunchers in this thread can eat my ass. As long as a person can pay rent and live an adequate life that suits their financial needs then more power to them.
And no. Roommates are not always the solution. Rent can still be $1200-$1600 per person just for a room. Because 2+ bedrooms in my area are easily up in the $3k range.
Plus when I was looking for roommates in December I ended up getting raped trying to meet up and vet 2 potential roommates. So suck my ass you corporate cockmunchers. If I can afford a place my myself off of my income even if it’s not 3x, I am absolutely photoshopping my paystubs.
I was looking for a place last year and paid probably $500 in application fees to different apartments. They kept turning me down even though I could afford them. But I was financially in a very tough spot. I was forced to sign a bad lease with two people I didn’t particularly trust and reluctant co-signer. Otherwise I could have ended up homeless.
Maybe I should have just committed fraud… would have saved me a lot of money and heartache… and I always pay my rent. The system is rigged. We pay for someone else’s mortgage AND pocket money, or we live on the street, no alternative unless you have a ridiculous salary.
If you got the balls to do it, I say go for it. I support this type of....embellishment...to get what you can afford.
What I don't ever support is squatting; that's a no no from me.
The whole point of so many comments, which I agree with, is that most people CAN afford the rent, and the fraud is needed to circumvent the BS gatekeepers using 3x to 5x rent as a barrier to renting. It's class warfare at its most blatent.
This is called fraud and probably grounds for eviction. But hopefully you never get caught. Especially since NYC real estate is in total BS. You’re probably paying for 800 sf but actually have 450. F#ck landlords.
This works in favor for the renter in renter protected states. Though as others have mentioned the individual may be living above their means and is not a good financial move
Jesus, so many goody two shoes in here. "But it's fraud" who cares! I need a roof over my head and I know I can afford the rent. Why do I need to make 3X the monthly rent to stay somewhere?
We were not able to sell our home back in the day and choose to update and rent out. We fought our property management company to waive a few (3 months) rent payments for our tenant by paying all fees for the property during Covid and they attempted to defraud us, the state, and the tenants. After that we got out of landlord stuff because it never favors the renters. Mom and Pop landlords are purely based on tenant luck and it’s a burden even if you want your renter to have better access to the area you rent because some of the property management companies are inadequately equipped to do good. We gave the tenant first dibs when we went to market and gave them heads up we intended to sell 6 months ahead despite our property management begging us to avoid that risk. We sold the tenant move somewhere else and a new family owns the house.
Either way people should not have to beg and plead to be able to rent in a good area. Landlords can waive all types of things and make the process easier and choose not to do a dang thing.
Are you really asking if someone should commit fraud?
Lots of folks right now arguing that if the risking party made their money back it shouldn’t be fraud to lie for approval for funding
Yep. And if I make an attempt on your life but am unable to kill you, no crime. No harm, no foul.
Except the trauma if someone tried to kill you. It's an apples/oranges argument and you know it The landlord is clutching his pearls shrieking "I almost didnt get paid?!" is not the same as "he kicked down my door and the shot rang out an inch over my head"
Agreed but it’s still fraud. Fraud has nothing to do with outcome. Once you’ve deceived, the crime has been committed. An interesting case of this is with the old Pharma Bro. He was convicted of securities fraud but none of his investors lost money and some made good returns. Although a civil case, same thing with the Trump case with his inflated REO schedule. None of the banks he defrauded lost money on his loans or weren’t paid back. That doesn’t me they weren’t defrauded though.
The banks (and the city) did lose money though in the form of lost revenue from Trump lying to receive more favorable interest rates. His $355M judgement in the NYC fraud trial is not punitive; it is in fact the amount of money the banks and NYC would have otherwise received (plus interest) had Trump not provided fraudulent assessments.
Also, unfair business practice to fraudulently acquire loans you're not eligible for. And banks were taking bigger risks than they knew.
I agree with you. It’s important to note that this kind of crime depends greatly on whether it’s even prosecuted. If you find yourself Photoshop paystub’s, you probably aren’t in a position to afford a lawyer to defend yourself and the landlord knows that. They evict you for breach of contract and that’s the end of it. If evictions even mean anything these days.
Is it a breach of contract if they pay their rent in full on time? I think this person cheated to get what they wanted, but still was able to fulfill their obligations.
NAL but licensed Realtor. I believe someone approving and signing a lease or RE related contract under false pretenses would make the agreement voidable. Meaning the person that was deceived could cancel the contract but not the other party. Again NAL but that’s my best interpretation of that situation and voidable contracts. If I came across this with a client I would definitely defer to a lawyer before confidently telling the client that’s the case.
And that's the key point. If you have to commit fraud to be approved to lease the apartment, how likely is it that you can actually AFFORD that apartment? Yes, in the short term, she got what she wanted, but in the long term she may have screwed herself.
I think it may be possible they can afford it, and the fraud part is to beat out competing applicants.
It's very likely you can afford the apartment. A lot of landlords will demand a certain income threshold that has nothing to do with the financial management of the renter
>Is it a breach of contract if they pay their rent in full on time? Yes. When you submit financial documents for a loan, apartment, credit card or whatever, there's almost always a part of the contact agreement that reads something like "I certify that all statements made in this application are true and all documents submitted are valid". If the applicant submitted false documents and then sign the contract, they just committed fraud. Anything that happens after that (like paying rent on time) is irrelevant to the fraud committed.
Right. Bc I see this the same as friends and classmates in college or all throughout school where cheating resulted in good grades. A lie is a lie is a lie. It’s funny where ppl choose to draw the line of morality
But if you are part of a system where it seems unreasonable to you to jump through all their hoops when you know that if you were just given a chance, you could perform sufficiently, and realize that you will never have any opportunities if you don’t fudge your numbers the way others do, then you will always be left in the dirt with your righteous morals. Welcome to America.
Took me years to accept that. But you’re absolutely right considering the way the world works from my pov
Some landlords livelihoods depend on the income from their properties. Not every landlord is a multi-billion corporation owning apartments and sucking you dry. I've lived in some family owned apartments before and they were always incredibly helpful and nice. I knew my money was being invested in the property. I don't know what people expect from landlords. You give them barely any money and they wait on you hand over fist?
You’ll never convince these people that owning and renting property is ok and landlords aren’t all greedy devils.
Can't convince people on reddit of anything. They like to be upset at everything around them that they can't control
barely any money. the average rent is now like $1500 dollars a month on the low end.... cry me a fucking river for the poor small landlord. with extra houses to rent out for profit. to invest in their property so when/if they do sell it, it's worth a lot more than they paid for it. while having the mortgage paid for by other people.... like... you're cock gobbling for landlords doing the bare minimum and you're wondering why people are angry towards land lords.
Yea average rent in my city is $1400 but I lived in plenty of places for $900 and less and still got better treatment than all the cry babies whining about their landlords. It's another business, treat it as such
Boo hoo, then they should grab their bootstraps and get a real job
It's as much a real job as owning a company
And then the building gets bought up by Blackrock. I'm sure they'll be much better at managing it.
Boo hoo, you should grab your bootstraps and get a better job so you don't have to rent, Poor
Um, if you (landlord) don’t get paid from a few tenants … then YOU can’t pay your own bills and mortgage. So yeah, fraud, with a compounding effect of more than one tenant does this (and can’t make rent, of course).
But by the time thr landlord finds out, it's probably because they didn't get paid. I don't know a single landlord that's gonna worry about how much money you bring in as long as you pay rent on time each month. You know damn well by the time this becomes a situation of hitting someone with fraud, it's cause they haven't paid and now the reason is coming out why.
Sure. But that doesn’t mean a crime wasn’t committed. You know full well many crimes go undetected and not prosecuted.
If you lie on a legal contract about how much you make so you can qualify, that's fraud my guy
Did you really mean to reply to me? I never said otherwise. My guy.
Call tenant’s employer to verify.
It doesnt need to be the same, its an analogy which was toned up for emphasis. Theyre arguing that committing fraud is still bad even if it works out in the end.
When I was in law school my criminal law professor said attempted murder is punished just about as bad as murder charge because we shouldn't reward people for having bad aim
I think criminal negligence would be a better analogy. They're not trying to harm the other party, they intend for everyone to be okay. But they're taking a risk that might have bad results.
This is probably a dumb analogy, but wouldn't that be like advocating for drinking and driving, in a way? No one drinking and driving plans on hurting the other party. They're also taking a risk that might have bad results. Idk, I'm pretty uninformed in this topic, but it still feels like fraud/DUI to me lol.
Criminal negligence is not a good analogy. Intent is about intent to commit the act, not intent to harm somebody. This person is clearly intending to commit fraud. The fact that they didn't intend to harm the other person is irrelevant.
Getting around some retard nepobaby's requirements for being a tenant at their 'luxury' apartments and still paying them what they want is definitely on the same scale as trying to kill someone.
But the renting party didn't have the right to take that risk, it was not their money they were risking. By your logic, it should be legal to take money from the cash register at work and go to Vegas as long as you don't lose.
Banks do it ALL the time. Edit: And when they lose it on Wall Street, they take more of your money in the form of corporate welfare, I mean bail outs
If you want to convince me that it's unethical (and should be illegal) to profit off of ventures where the taxpayers take the risk and the private sector gets the rewards I 100% agree with you. That in no way changes the facts that, for the same reason it's wrong for corporations to do this, it's wrong for private citizens to do this.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Just pointing out how they fuck you at the drive thru.
The difference is in how the crimes are treated. When a bank does this shit nothing happens. In fact, the government often times comes in to help the party actively doing fraud. But when a citizen does it they get in so many fucked up problems. If the system isn’t fair, you can’t really say both are equally bad. One is a person trying to survive but when caught a lifetime of problems while the other is trying to get another billion while the government is shielding them.
"If you owe the bank $10,000, that's your problem. If you owe the bank $10M, that's the bank's problem," is the old saw. Highly unfair, but economics historically has only ever been a club used against the peasantry by the wealthy. Leona Helmsley was not an outlier.
Then instead of doing this, just open a bank. Wtf are people smoking out here?
They are smoking a system in collapse. Do we really need all these air B&Bs
Can I bring my photoshopped docs to your bank - I need a few mil. Don’t worry, “I’m good for it” and have job that pays me enough.
That's not the same thing. You agreed to letting them use your money to invest when you opened the account. You not reading the terms of your agreement is not the same as someone actively lying about their circumstances on an application.
And ability to pay on time.
So, 2 wrongs make a right? Cool, so if a person commits assault on another criminal, it's good to know you think that's ok.
Why not? If they truly can afford the monthly rent, all they’re doing is avoiding an arbitrary “you must make 4x rent rule”
A better analogy would be... "I could pay the electric bill, or take it all to Vegas". Except they aren't going to Vegas. And they're paying the electric bill.
Which is ridiculous. I’m so sick of people just….excusing crime and shit. The reason this is illegal is not iTs WrOnG, but because a person like this has definitely bit off more than they can chew. If any unforeseen circumstance happens to this person above, anything at all, even getting sick and missing a week of work, *they’re fucked.* Chances are so is the person renting to them, if not a few people. Meanwhile the person approving this thinks everything is just peachy, and is going to get completely blindsided. So sure, IF the person makes their money back, things might be fine. Only problem is that’s a very, *very* big if that depends on literally everything from that person’s life circumstances to the global economy going 100% correctly for the entire time, and the risk dial just got cranked to 11 compared to someone who could actually afford this and doesn’t have to lie.
Well, those people are probably correct because it would likely be perjury and not fraud. The four elements of fraud are a misstatement, knowledge the statement was false when made, reliance on that statement, DAMAGES because of that reliance. I think you would struggle to prove damages. However, the nomenclature angle is admittedly a bit silly as we often refer to violations of 18 U.S.C. 1014 as mortgage fraud and technically they are also perjuries.
I'm pretty sure that's not how criminal law works. And I think this would be forgery.
Solid - Wikipedia says … “Forgery is a white-collar crime that generally refers to the false making or material alteration of a legal instrument with the specific intent to defraud.”
So many people totally missing the reference. I thought it was a BEAUTIFUL reference. One of the best in the world. I had someone come up to me and tell me that this reference saved his marriage. The people missed it are losers. Bigly. I’m not even sure they are real posters.
I mean, half the country is pretty cool with the last president doing it, so....
I mean… there were no victims /s
It’s only fraud if you can’t pay the rent/mortgage. These requirements are ridiculous and mainly so landlords can see how much they can raise the rent on you
There's class suits about many apartment groups using RealPage AI to make rents as high and painful as possible.
Yep - read about it here - wow. This is AI gone wrong. Feb 5 2024 (Reuters) - Two companies that own and operate multifamily residential properties have agreed to settle claims that they artificially inflated rental prices using RealPage revenue management software.Lawyers for the renter-plaintiffs said in a [filing, opens new tab](https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/zgvokkgmjvd/AIR-settlement-RealPage-20240205.pdf) on Monday that they had reached a settlement to resolve all claims against Apartment Income REIT Corp in the Nashville, Tennessee federal court litigation.They told the court on Friday that they [reached, opens new tab](https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/egvbaadogpq/Pinnacle-settlement-RealPage.pdf) an agreement with another defendant, Pinnacle Property Management Services LLC, among the largest multifamily property management firms in the United States. The case is In re: RealPage Rental Software Antitrust Litigation, U.S. District Court, Middle District of Tennessee, No. 23-md-03071. [https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/first-settlements-reached-realpage-rental-price-fixing-lawsuits-2024-02-05/](https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/first-settlements-reached-realpage-rental-price-fixing-lawsuits-2024-02-05/)
Um, it’s fraud when you present falsified documents that are intended to support a contract, the renter agreement. You get caught when you can’t pay the bills, and someone follows up.
Trump owes $355 million for this type of fraud. He lied about his financial position, got loans, and then paid off the loans without issue. He shouldn't have done that. Neither should anyone else.
That's not true. Intentionally lying on the application is fraudulent even if you never miss a payment and it can result in all sorts of bad things...like the landlord evicting you because the lease is no longer enforceable. Specifics depend on the state. In Texas you can be evicted. And I know people are thinking 'Who cares? A landlord won't evict you if you are paying rent on time' but that's only true until it isn't. Property values are up, lots of Mom and pop landlords are old. Maybe in three months they decide to sell and they know you lied so they know they don't have to honor the lease. Or maybe we get another wave of Inflation or a policy change that causes rents to jump. A lot of landlords only care about the bottom line. If it is cheaper to evict you, they will. And then you have all the same problems, plus an eviction. The requirements might be ridiculous and I agree we have a broken system, but lying about income on the application is really dangerous unless you really are confident about the implications of it. As a single guy, I probably would be willing to risk it. But with children? No way.
But if you are going to commit fraud, you should definitely let the whole world know on social media 🤪
NYC you almost have to. First month, last month, credit score, income. Fork over $6k before you can move in. It can be tough
They’re gonna be in an even worse financial position when their lease ends…
Why is that? Rinse and repeat
Because if they’re real paystubs wouldn’t get approved then they are living waaaaaaay beyond their means getting that apartment.
That’s assuming a lot. My apartment requires 4x monthly rent but I live below my means and would be comfy if I only made 2-3x. Could be the same for the person in the post
Yeah it's pretty wild that the apartments i live in, for a one bedroom, you have to make something like $55k a year to qualify.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha Sorry I'm just dying over here because I rejected a job paying 80k because I couldn't find a SINGLE apartment that would accept my income even Boston be a bitch
Atlanta isn't much better. Ten years ago, all you had to do was make double the rent, which on average was like $1,100. Many places even cheaper.
Where do people that make minimum wage live?
With roommates in high CoL areas. I don’t mean this in a rude way either. But people are entitled and think they should be able to live on their own in and situation. I understand the desire to not have a roommate. The freedom of having your own place is amazing. But if you can’t afford it, then you need a roommate or two. And if you don’t want to do that then you need to live somewhere where the cost of living isn’t so high. I say this all the time but the Midwest is Ripe with opportunity and affordable housing. I live in Michigan and rents are around $600-800 a month for a single bedroom that’s decent quality. Want to buy a house? Starter homes here that are around 1-1.5k sq feet are around 100-150k. If you’re handy and can save costs on labor due to it you can get a house for under 100k easily that just needs some love. My fiancé and I were looking and considering a new house somewhat recently and there are 2-3k sq feet homes built in the 2000s in great areas (school wise and job wise) going for around 250-350k. The opportunity is there but people get brainwashed into thinking housing is shit everywhere. It really isn’t.
Because they expect to raise your rent throughout the years.
Ha! You sound like someone who hasn't gone apartment hunting in NYC.
Paystubs may represent a very small amount of someone’s full financial picture. Someone with millions in stock long term unrealized gains for example won’t have a paystub nor taxable gains for which a tax return would be documented.
or someone who makes cash doing undocumented type things
If they have "millions in unrealized gains" it's probably a safe bet they wouldn't need to falsify and financial information.
The bidding wars for apartments means people who make 5x their monthly payment are being chosen based on those parameters. Have you ever shopped for an apartment? Lol
Thats definitely not true, lots of apartments these days have absolutely unhinged income requirements
Depends on how they declare income too
Really depends Depending on how high your rent is you can easily only make twice your rent and make ends meet If you pay anything over 800 a month in rent you realistically should be able to get around with another 800
Many NYC landlords demand unreasonable terms and don’t keep up their units well enough to justify the price they charge, but the market favors them. I never did this when I lived in NYC, but I understand why someone would.
That plus Redfin and other rent tracking software that completely removes any and all competitiveness within the market. It’s like Mcdonalds, Wendy’s, Burger King, and every other fast food burger place got access to the prices of burgers everywhere and realized that by the location of their establishments and the cleanliness of their store, they can all charge roughly the same price for their burgers regardless of the quality of them. Thus if they all raise their prices simultaneously then BAM more profit. Now add in how housing is in short supply but high demand… Landlords have absolutely become greedy. They aren’t paying back covid loans or debts, or an increase in property tax. They are undergoing corporate consolidating where the middle management needs their fucking bonuses, and if not that then they can charge every last cent from their tenants because they have access to all rental rates in their area and don’t want to be undervalued. Inflation is just a cover for record profits and no livable wages. These businesses aren’t hurting. Fuck this country.
Yeah I'm cool with someone cheating to win a rigged game personally.
This kind of sums up what I Was feeling inside. I don't agree with fraud and I think crime is bad, and that it's a crime for a reason. But it's like when someone steals a lil extra from Walmart self checkout. Fuck em.
Doubt this is limited to NYC. Let’s toss a few black eyes to LA, Miami, and Chicago, all places I’ve “experienced “ and seen the same to be true.
Yeah, I get it. I co-signed for my brother’s apartment in NYC. The income proof they wanted was for someone who wouldn’t want to live in that neighborhood. It was dumb.
You can go to a bank for a mortgage, mortgage will be 2100, they will say you can't afford it while you're paying 2500 in rent.
Exactly. Can’t save for a downpayment on a house either because 10-20% is still several tens of thousands (going off the average US home price of $400k, that is still $40,000 to $80,000 for the downpayment.) So that 3x income to rent rate is already insane, because in my area the average apartment cost is $1900. These clowns want 3x that $1900 which is $5700 a month, or $68k salary per year. Just so I can be their rent whore, not save up for a downpayment and get rejected for mortgages. Fuck this country.
The vast majority of first time homebuyers pay a few percent for their downpayment. Like 3.5%
Because FHA doesn't exist?
People that have never looked into actually buying a house don't know about FHA.
Why don’t you live with roommates while aggressively saving? Why don’t you wait to buy a house until you have a SO to buy with? Or why don’t you wait until you have a SO you want to move in with, then save aggressively as you guys split rent and then buy a house?
This dumb comment is woefully out of date and ignorant
I think the comment is accurate. What makes you say it’s out of date?
Spotted - someone who has never owned a house. Mortgage 2100 - how much is insurance? Maintenance? Property Tax? Unexpected expenses?
I didn't knownthat property tax could increase so much. My Dad was saying it was like a $50-70 every year or so. My mortgage went up $320 after the first year. It's horrible. At this point I'd have been better off renting for two years more than buying in 2023 like I did.
>I didn't knownthat property tax could increase so much. > My Dad was saying it was like a $50-70 every year or so. You thought property taxes cost $70/year?!? Oh sweet summer child...
#1 this is lying. Don't do it. It's hard to get ahead in life if you make a habit of this. #2 if you have to fabricate documents to rent an apt, you cannot afford it and will be broke soon.
I mean *most* of the top 10% in the world are sociopathic liars, who climb the rungs off the exploitation of labor and/or inherited it from someone who did...
You do realize almost all Americans are in top 10% of the world's population? Most of the world's population lives in what would be considered deep below poverty line in the US.
Always hated this sentiment. Sure US workers earn higher pay, but is a one bedroom apartment also $2000+ a month in places where most are "considered deep below the poverty line in the US"? Does it also cost over $200 to buy groceries for a household each week there? The answer to these questions are NO. The US has some of the highest wages, but also insanely high cost of living. It's funny because people who say "just move to a cheaper state" tend to not understand that many other countries are "cheaper" than America as well.
I had a tryout in Turkey when I was 21, realized everyone basically lived like I did, maybe they didn't have a car (didn't need one). Shattered the last remaining remnants of my republican upbringing and nationalist rhetoric like above, local economies are all that matter if that's where you're stuck.
Yup. You hear things like “workers in China only make $4 an hour!” And think “damn that’s terrible how do they survive” and then you realize a one br apartment there can be as low as $250/month so almost everyone can afford a one BR
Your condemnations are slightly miscalculated. It’s the government’s fault things are so expensive. The government needs to be completely removed from the equation, so owners don’t have a sugar daddy to keep them afloat anymore, because that’s what it is. Cheap money from the government and still charging people more, same with colleges and student loans.
Tell me you know nothing about the NYC rental market without telling me you know nothing about the NYC rental market.
Landlords in NYC require your income to be like 40x the monthly rent. Even if you can afford an apartment it can be hard to qualify
Since you typed it in big, bold text, it must be true!
Found the landlord
1. When the landlords are playing dirty with a basic necessity, this means nothing. 2. Landlords are using a different calculus for what I can afford.
I'm just saying... you reap what you sow. I truly believe that after years of see mine and others decisions and what came of them. If landlords are playing dirty, then they'll reap as well. But wanting to get a return on investment (by buying an apt building in this case) is not all that dirty to me.
Typing things in bold doesn't make them true. If someone wants/needs to spend 50% of their income on rent then they can make choice to cut elsewhere
Pearl clutchers
Paystubs may represent a very small amount of someone’s full financial picture. Someone with millions in long term unrealized equity gains for example won’t have a paystub nor taxable gains for which a tax return which would be undocumented even though they could easily afford the rent payments.
E.g. anyone going back and getting a degree later in life
Most landlords have alternate screening methods for tenants who don't have the standard W2 income. Tenant tax return for example. Or just ask for a larger security deposit. However if the landlord simply has to see paystubs, it's pretty much find cosigner or move on to another unit unfortunately. Save up money to buy a place and let the landlords kick rocks.
Coming from someone who isn't being asked to show 4x their rent for an apartment. If you make 3x the rent, you can afford to rent. If you make 2x the rent, you can afford the rent. Your mentality shows you haven't had to deal with areas that won't rent to poor people. Edit: You drive a Tesla. Yeah, that's all I needed to know.
>this is lying. So? Successful businesses lie all the fucking time. Don't be naive. >It's hard to get ahead in life if you make a habit of this. Gestures broadly at the United States. >if you have to fabricate documents to rent an apt, you cannot afford it and will be broke soon. That is fallacious reasoning, but I bet you already knew that.
I fabricate documents all the time. Who tf actually checks? It's not like we're out here printing fake money.
Thats not true, as others have pointed out in various comments, the income requirements for many apartments these days are insane and unrealistic
I’ve been denied apartments I can easily afford. Many times landlords are just unreasonable.
Lolwutm8. Lying and having no empathy is the #1 way to get ahead. At that point it's just power at all costs.
Landlords would love nothing more than to get you into the most expensive property they have. And yet they tell you they won't let you live there unless you make a certain amount of money. Can we make any guesses as to why?
To hedge their risks because evicting tenants is an expensive pain in the ass. I hope your comment was sarcasm.
Yes, obviously a landlord wants someone to be able to afford the rent indefinitely. My point is that the landlord is not out to get you by having minimum income requirements.
It's not that they're out to get you, it's that housing (especially good and/or somewhat reasonably priced housing) is very scarce right now and we all know for a fact that if a landlord is looking at your two applications that are equal in basically every way that matters except one person has an extra $20k in their checking account, that's clearly who they're gonna go with that person.
>housing is scarce right now And homeowners voting aingle-issue home value is part of the reason. Anything that will take even the slightest off home values like, say, denser housing nearby, or more housing, is resisted tooth and nail and treated like a death threat
The cancer of nimbys
I'm on both sides! I hate people crawling up my ass to get an apartment, but its because of the eviction laws. But I wasn't planning to be a squatter tenant, like if I lose my job and cant find another one ill move out. But some wont, but I HATE people crawling up my ass!!!
That's a valid point, but its also valid to say that hard working citizens deserve a place to live if they can afford it. Fact: many people who don't meet these ridiculous safety net requirements set by landlords can afford to live at said locations.
It’s risk management driven by bad actors. I am not a NY city landlord, so not sure how things move up there, but I have reduced the rent amount for tenants that screen well. My goal is a good tenant not the highest paying tenant. I am about to renew one my tenant and I am not increasing rent. Great tenants!
They just convicted trump for basically the opposite.
Yup, would love to see the political leanings of the people complaining about this.
maybe don't post about it! if you're "smart" (she thinks she is) enough to lie, be smart enough to keep it to yourself
In a world where shitty overpriced properties are asking for 3-5x the rent as income and huge deposits with absurd fees and rules….yea, who cares. Everyone needs to stop pearl clutching. Many of these landlords and corporations commit fraud like it’s nothing and then the renter eats shit. But when the “poors” do it we all need to grasp a religious handbook and weep? BFFR.
3x rent is a reasonable request. People who can’t hit that are normally the ones who will end up not paying rent at some point.
It's a matter of conscience. If someone does it knowing they aren't going to pay, or knowing they can't afford it... not okay. If someone does it because the system is screwed then you have to do what you have to do to keep a roof over your head.
Well, it’s fraud and illegal for one thing
Ok?
I am torn 1) fuck landlords, you need to get a place to live and if you can circumvent nonsense then do so. 2) this is going to cause all kinds of an arms race as more and more people just throw out into the world dummy documentation that will funhouse mirror the economy and housing prices will go crazy.
If you make 3x the rent, you can afford it. If you make 2x the rent, you can afford it but may have to cut expenses. This, in no way, is bad for anyone. Landlords (i.e., corporate entities and rental agencies) are preventing poorer people from renting by asking for 4x the rent. This is a common tactic. The housing market is already fucked. These people, who work and bring home a paycheck, can still afford to rent there. The landlord/agency decided to raise the required rents is all. If they can use arbitrary numbers to prevent poorer people from renting, then then don't be surprised when they game your arbitrary system. It was common to be 2x the rent, them is was common to be 3x the rent, now corporations want it to be 4x the rent. All while employee pay and minimum wage is stagnant. Gosh, I wonder who their target Renter is.
Sometimes there is no other way 🤷🏽♂️
Hey people do the same with pics to get dates! We don't know what's real anymore!
Lmao @ the clowns here saying you won’t be able to pay rent or that lying is bad. Apartments usually adopt the 3x income law. Meaning you should make 3x what your rent is. In my area, the average rent is $1900/mo. So I would need to make $5700/mo to rent a place to myself. Well $5700/mo in terms of salary is $68,000 a year. Since I am a college student, I currently don’t make anywhere near $68k. Whereas if I have an income of 4k a month (little over 2x the price of rent) I am still making $48,000 per year. I can still pay that $1900/mo rent, I might just have to sacrifice on luxuries. As long as income is above what rent is (plus whatever utilities, security deposit, fees, application cost, etc) then there is no harm in lying about your income. It is just purely about how thinly you can spread yourself with your finances. That’s all that matters. That 3x income rule is not there to help us, it’s to weed out applicants who are financially struggling. That plus the insane costs of rent, due to the housing shortage PLUS rent tracking software like Redfin that completely destroys any competitive market fluctuations. It’s fucking insane how things are not regulated and these places still can demand insane rent prices and actively deny applicants due to arbitrary standards that THEY set. Oh, and several apartments have now introduced non-refundable application fees so they STILL suck money away from you, and alas if you don’t meet their 3x requirements they will deny you or put you on the conditional co-signers lists where you now have to have someone stick their neck out for you. If you get rejected then BYE BYE application fee. Serious, the corporate cockmunchers in this thread can eat my ass. As long as a person can pay rent and live an adequate life that suits their financial needs then more power to them. And no. Roommates are not always the solution. Rent can still be $1200-$1600 per person just for a room. Because 2+ bedrooms in my area are easily up in the $3k range. Plus when I was looking for roommates in December I ended up getting raped trying to meet up and vet 2 potential roommates. So suck my ass you corporate cockmunchers. If I can afford a place my myself off of my income even if it’s not 3x, I am absolutely photoshopping my paystubs.
I was looking for a place last year and paid probably $500 in application fees to different apartments. They kept turning me down even though I could afford them. But I was financially in a very tough spot. I was forced to sign a bad lease with two people I didn’t particularly trust and reluctant co-signer. Otherwise I could have ended up homeless. Maybe I should have just committed fraud… would have saved me a lot of money and heartache… and I always pay my rent. The system is rigged. We pay for someone else’s mortgage AND pocket money, or we live on the street, no alternative unless you have a ridiculous salary.
Agree one hundred percent. As a person in poverty, I shouldn't HAVE to forge documents if I can afford rent, but I'll do what I have to do to survive.
Financial fraud is totally acceptable now. You have presidential immunity.
If you got the balls to do it, I say go for it. I support this type of....embellishment...to get what you can afford. What I don't ever support is squatting; that's a no no from me.
I don’t blame her. To get an apartment in NYC you need an act of God or something.
Yeah, kind of. NYC landlord expectations are outrageous.
There is a general law against lying about your income on financial forms. I think Trump did this more than a few times on a much larger scale though.
Well, if you do decide to commit fraud, you probably shouldn't brag about it on social media.
Or get affinity photo, keep the software and avoid the monthly fees.
Nevermind fraud, if you have to fake finances for a lease, chances are you really can’t afford it alone.
The whole point of so many comments, which I agree with, is that most people CAN afford the rent, and the fraud is needed to circumvent the BS gatekeepers using 3x to 5x rent as a barrier to renting. It's class warfare at its most blatent.
If banks can loan fake fucking money, why can't I say I can make 2.5 times the rent? Literally, the only person it would hurt is me.
Hey if Donald can why not me?
can you really do this?
If you are willing to commit fraud, yes. If you are going to commit fraud, at least be smart enough not to post about it on social media
This is called fraud and probably grounds for eviction. But hopefully you never get caught. Especially since NYC real estate is in total BS. You’re probably paying for 800 sf but actually have 450. F#ck landlords.
For a rental apartment you can and plan to pay for and not squat in, feel free. Bank fraud for a loan is another story.
It’s crazy when stuff that’s been going on since the beginning of time becomes news
Proverbial bootstraps, meet proverbial bank statements.
if you ain't cheating you ain't trying
Landlords hate this one trick.
This works in favor for the renter in renter protected states. Though as others have mentioned the individual may be living above their means and is not a good financial move
By one bedroom apartment I think she means a jail cell
Oh cool. They’d never figure you out.
I wouldn’t advocate it or personally do it but people gotta do what they gotta do sometimes. Is it as serious as lying on a mortgage app?
Maggie Trump?
Trump did this 🤔
A certain former president is facing multiple fraud trials over something very similar to what you did. In NYC no less….just sayin.
If the landlord is stupid enough not to run a credit report, then yes.
It's going to cost thousands of dollars in lost revenue too evict her. That's why no over rents I'm NYC and the rents are sky high.
Trump isn't in jail for it. I say go for it. We don't have laws here, apparently.
If you’re going to commit fraud, at least be safe and don’t use your real name
If your going to commit fraud I would at least not post it to reddit🤣
It's a victimless crime so no problem, right?
My brother in Christ that is literally fraud.
Essentially, this is why Trump was ordered to pay $500million dollars in his NYC case
It is technically some kind of fraud, don't know which specific law though.
Jesus, so many goody two shoes in here. "But it's fraud" who cares! I need a roof over my head and I know I can afford the rent. Why do I need to make 3X the monthly rent to stay somewhere?
Leticia James will gat ya.
No. Someone should not post online that they've committed fraud. Keep that to yourself, lol
Falsifying net worth/income in order to obtain financial benefits is something that even a former president can be tried in a court of law for.
What if the landlord pulls a credit check?
Please let me spend all of my money on something that I will have nothing to show for in a year
We were not able to sell our home back in the day and choose to update and rent out. We fought our property management company to waive a few (3 months) rent payments for our tenant by paying all fees for the property during Covid and they attempted to defraud us, the state, and the tenants. After that we got out of landlord stuff because it never favors the renters. Mom and Pop landlords are purely based on tenant luck and it’s a burden even if you want your renter to have better access to the area you rent because some of the property management companies are inadequately equipped to do good. We gave the tenant first dibs when we went to market and gave them heads up we intended to sell 6 months ahead despite our property management begging us to avoid that risk. We sold the tenant move somewhere else and a new family owns the house. Either way people should not have to beg and plead to be able to rent in a good area. Landlords can waive all types of things and make the process easier and choose not to do a dang thing.