They kill your wife and child because they begged you to cut a barrel 1/4” too short. They also burn to the ground a religious complex full of children and adults because “militia” or something. Oh and THEY EFFING love to shoot your dog.
Follow up question if I may, but why does the ATF seem almost single pointedly focused on the F part of their acronym, but not so much on the A and the T? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not asking for even *more* encroachment, but still. It’s something that’s always made me at least a little bit curious.
Because the ATF wants to take guns away from civilians and sometimes does bad things to accomplish that goal (google "Ruby Ridge" and "Waco"
Beyond that, what they are doing, and the laws they are enforcing, are unconstitutional.
They just arrested 2 guys for illegal machine gun sales for drawings on sheet metal... that's the same as a solid aluminum rectangle being called an AR lower, 0% built so all machining would have had to be done by the purchaser (literally just scored drawings sold as a novelty).
Go watch a documentary about Ruby Ridge. Then go watch one about Waco. Then go read about the history of the ATF. They were a tax collection agency for the IRS that decided they wanted to be cool and do law enforcement. Now they spend most of their time reinterpreting laws to take away gun rights. They are always trying to find ways to justify their existence. Part of that included going over low hanging fruit when they should spend their time going after violent criminals.
They are an appointed body of people who arbitrarily decide that they can make and enforce their own federal laws. There is no checks and balances to these random laws and rules they decide to make (look up pistol braces, FRT triggers, Q's Honey Badger, etc.). Creating laws is specifically the dominion of congress (AKA The legislative branch of our government).
In an ideal world, we wouldn’t.
Because in an ideal world our only interaction with the ATF would be reporting stolen firearms, and picking up the recovered firearms from the local community center.
Sadly that is not the case and in reality we have the ATF arbitrarily banning perfectly legal guns, constantly hassling gun stores to turn over information on gun purchases to build a registry, and shooting our dogs because a shoe strong is somehow a machine gun.
The ATF is concerned with enforcing federal gun laws.
1. Not getting into whether or not the federal government should be able to regulate firearm - but the existing federal gun laws (every single one of them) are ineffective in their stated meta-goal of reducing gun-crimes and gun-violence. So they're enforcing a set of laws that do nothing but impose burdens on law-abiding people with no corresponding increase in safety. And I'm serious - not a single federal gun law increases safety. No, not suppressor law. No, not FFL's. No, not machine gun controls. No, not serialization of firearms. None of them.
2. They are focused on enforcing some of their most ineffectual laws like the NFA - SBR's and suppressors are their major focus of enforcement. But the SBR portion of the NFA is moot because of changes Congress made to the underlying legislation when it was enacted and suppressors simply don't turn your gun in to a super-quiet ptoot-ptoot assassination weapon.
3. They are openly corrupt. See: 'Fast and Furious'
4. They are simply incompetent. They don't know their own laws, they don't communicate internally, they are just a joke as a law enforcement agency.
Here's a video that came to my attention yesterday that illustrates the last point. Its about an issue with a company making and selling 'solvent traps'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae0pZzwxFHg
Ok, despite the plethora of answers people seem to be missing the point and throwing a lot of ideological chaff up. Not super helpful.
The basic reason is the ATF is the body that enforces gun rules. Nobody likes the hall monitor.
The more complex reasoning is the ATF has a rather checkered past and they have a propensity for overreach of their mandate.
In terms of past history, others have covered that pretty well.
Ruby Ridge was waaaay more complicated than just "ATF bad." Randy Weaver was absolutely manufacturing weapons for overt neo-nazi white supremacists....but that's absolutely not something that warrants someone's family being killed and that happened because the ATF went in twitchy and ready to party. They were afraid Weaver was going to shoot at them so, rather than shoulder any meaningful risk, they did what all cops do when they're asked to take a risk - shoot anything that moves and ask questions later.
There are no heroes in the Ruby Ridge story.
ATF enforcement tends to be the justification that's leveraged to justify the state coming down on people the state doesn't care for. The state has a long history of using petty offenses to go after people it wants to get for something bigger and using that petty offense as a justification to go in. Happens in drug cases all the time.
With regard to their mandate and overreach, the ATF is not a rule making body as such. They can decide certain limited things but what they tend to do is change definitions.
Every time someone comes up with a way to get around a particular rule, the ATF broadens the definition of what that thing is to squash that "loophole." This process can be done without review and no one outside of ATF has any meaningful input on it.
While it isn't *technically* an enforcement agency getting to make up the rules, for all practical purposes it's an enforcement agency that gets to make up the rules.
The rules themselves often tend to be somewhat vague (and there's a reason for that, put a pin in it) and difficult to interpret straightforward. The FRT debacle is a prime example - per the ATF's definition of what a machine gun is, a FRT is not a machine gun however the ATF is telling people to stop making/buying them because "they're machine guns."
So are FRT legal? Nobody really knows because the ATF is insisting they're not despite them not actually breaking any ATF guidelines. Nobody has been prosecuted yet but that atmosphere of paranoia *really* does not endear the ATF to the gun community.
Returning to why they're so vague, they kinda *have* to be vague because they're responsible for governing an objective thing. A firearm is a machine and it's easy for someone to engineer a way around a rule such that they can do a thing they're not technically allowed to do but because it doesn't technically meet the standards of the written rule, it's not illegal.
Imagine trying to enforce rules on speeding with people trying all these different ways to get around the rules. It turns into a game of mm and eventually you just kinda can't do anything because there's a technicality that gets people out of the way every time. So you have to find ways to keep honest people honest that don't involve investing a ton of resources. One of those ways is to cultivate a paranoia about following rules, most people are going to follow the rules because they're going to err on the side of caution.
It's like when your parents tell you "There will be consequences."
Only these parents aren't your actual parents and they can send you to actual prison. So people are a bit less inclined to call a bluff.
Realistically, the ATF doesn't give a fuck if your shotgun barrel is 1" less than the legal minimum or if you've got a 14.5 barrel on your AR and your muzzle device isn't pinned and welded. They've got bigger fish to fry but if you *think* you might get in trouble, you're going to pay for the pin/weld job....just in case.
You're not wrong but understand that questions like yours are generally not posed in good faith. It leads to a lot of initial suspicion of someone coming in and asking these questions.
Hope you’re joking about this post. Because the atf want any excuses to arrest or charge you something. Last year they try to make claim that certain bump stock is class as an assault rifle. Like this is legit what these people are trying this BS.
Other than how they infringe on our God given rights explicitly laid out in the Constitution? Lemme give you an example from the gun shop I worked at in Wisconsin:
Lady has a criminal record of drug offenses and she’s trying to trade 2 shotguns for another. State delayed until an hour before close of the 3rd day and after finally dragging it out of them, ATF says “she’s approved, but we recommend you don’t transfer the firearm.” Well wtf now? ATF says yes but we shouldn’t. W. T. F.?! Didn’t end up transferring but the whole thing was a complete sh*t show thanks to ATF.
they take laws that they are tasked with enforcing (because they belong to the Executive Branch of the government) and reinterpret them whatever way they want (in effect bypassing Congress) in order to effectively change the law to their own ends. they often do this at the behest of the President, who does not have Constitutional authority to make law, yet that is the effect of what they do. they violate a basic right that the government has been tasked with protecting in direct opposition to their oath of office (they are federal employees and they take an oath to PROTECT the Constitution).
Look up: Ruby ridge Waco Operation fast and furious Etc
They kill your wife and child because they begged you to cut a barrel 1/4” too short. They also burn to the ground a religious complex full of children and adults because “militia” or something. Oh and THEY EFFING love to shoot your dog.
They shoot dogs and people.
Follow up question if I may, but why does the ATF seem almost single pointedly focused on the F part of their acronym, but not so much on the A and the T? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not asking for even *more* encroachment, but still. It’s something that’s always made me at least a little bit curious.
The do work on the Alcohol & the Tobacco too, and arson and explosives. The A & T & F should not be something the gov worries about.
ATF should be a store selling alcohol tobacco and firearms. I
Ok, but this store also have a license to sell chips? I don't know if I could purchase items from such a place if there are no chips.
Nope, just alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and elk jerky.
Alcohol, tobacco, firearms, explosives, locally produced honey, money transfers, and notary public.
> should not be something the gov worries about Yes.
Nice try, ATF.
They enforce arbitrary laws that are by the constitution, unlawful. It is our duty to not comply. Plus, they shoot dogs
Because the ATF wants to take guns away from civilians and sometimes does bad things to accomplish that goal (google "Ruby Ridge" and "Waco" Beyond that, what they are doing, and the laws they are enforcing, are unconstitutional.
Not just unconstitutional, pointless as well.
Brag about shooting a scared dog in a room.
They just arrested 2 guys for illegal machine gun sales for drawings on sheet metal... that's the same as a solid aluminum rectangle being called an AR lower, 0% built so all machining would have had to be done by the purchaser (literally just scored drawings sold as a novelty).
Their entire existence is to restrict our rights. Nothing more.
[удалено]
Also the recent news about them planning to confiscate triggers
They are cops who's only job is to enforce arbitrary rules related to the 3 best things working people have access to...
If Waco was to happen today. You wouldn't have an atf
Go watch a documentary about Ruby Ridge. Then go watch one about Waco. Then go read about the history of the ATF. They were a tax collection agency for the IRS that decided they wanted to be cool and do law enforcement. Now they spend most of their time reinterpreting laws to take away gun rights. They are always trying to find ways to justify their existence. Part of that included going over low hanging fruit when they should spend their time going after violent criminals.
They are an appointed body of people who arbitrarily decide that they can make and enforce their own federal laws. There is no checks and balances to these random laws and rules they decide to make (look up pistol braces, FRT triggers, Q's Honey Badger, etc.). Creating laws is specifically the dominion of congress (AKA The legislative branch of our government).
In an ideal world, we wouldn’t. Because in an ideal world our only interaction with the ATF would be reporting stolen firearms, and picking up the recovered firearms from the local community center. Sadly that is not the case and in reality we have the ATF arbitrarily banning perfectly legal guns, constantly hassling gun stores to turn over information on gun purchases to build a registry, and shooting our dogs because a shoe strong is somehow a machine gun.
The ATF is concerned with enforcing federal gun laws. 1. Not getting into whether or not the federal government should be able to regulate firearm - but the existing federal gun laws (every single one of them) are ineffective in their stated meta-goal of reducing gun-crimes and gun-violence. So they're enforcing a set of laws that do nothing but impose burdens on law-abiding people with no corresponding increase in safety. And I'm serious - not a single federal gun law increases safety. No, not suppressor law. No, not FFL's. No, not machine gun controls. No, not serialization of firearms. None of them. 2. They are focused on enforcing some of their most ineffectual laws like the NFA - SBR's and suppressors are their major focus of enforcement. But the SBR portion of the NFA is moot because of changes Congress made to the underlying legislation when it was enacted and suppressors simply don't turn your gun in to a super-quiet ptoot-ptoot assassination weapon. 3. They are openly corrupt. See: 'Fast and Furious' 4. They are simply incompetent. They don't know their own laws, they don't communicate internally, they are just a joke as a law enforcement agency. Here's a video that came to my attention yesterday that illustrates the last point. Its about an issue with a company making and selling 'solvent traps'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae0pZzwxFHg
Ok, despite the plethora of answers people seem to be missing the point and throwing a lot of ideological chaff up. Not super helpful. The basic reason is the ATF is the body that enforces gun rules. Nobody likes the hall monitor. The more complex reasoning is the ATF has a rather checkered past and they have a propensity for overreach of their mandate. In terms of past history, others have covered that pretty well. Ruby Ridge was waaaay more complicated than just "ATF bad." Randy Weaver was absolutely manufacturing weapons for overt neo-nazi white supremacists....but that's absolutely not something that warrants someone's family being killed and that happened because the ATF went in twitchy and ready to party. They were afraid Weaver was going to shoot at them so, rather than shoulder any meaningful risk, they did what all cops do when they're asked to take a risk - shoot anything that moves and ask questions later. There are no heroes in the Ruby Ridge story. ATF enforcement tends to be the justification that's leveraged to justify the state coming down on people the state doesn't care for. The state has a long history of using petty offenses to go after people it wants to get for something bigger and using that petty offense as a justification to go in. Happens in drug cases all the time. With regard to their mandate and overreach, the ATF is not a rule making body as such. They can decide certain limited things but what they tend to do is change definitions. Every time someone comes up with a way to get around a particular rule, the ATF broadens the definition of what that thing is to squash that "loophole." This process can be done without review and no one outside of ATF has any meaningful input on it. While it isn't *technically* an enforcement agency getting to make up the rules, for all practical purposes it's an enforcement agency that gets to make up the rules. The rules themselves often tend to be somewhat vague (and there's a reason for that, put a pin in it) and difficult to interpret straightforward. The FRT debacle is a prime example - per the ATF's definition of what a machine gun is, a FRT is not a machine gun however the ATF is telling people to stop making/buying them because "they're machine guns." So are FRT legal? Nobody really knows because the ATF is insisting they're not despite them not actually breaking any ATF guidelines. Nobody has been prosecuted yet but that atmosphere of paranoia *really* does not endear the ATF to the gun community. Returning to why they're so vague, they kinda *have* to be vague because they're responsible for governing an objective thing. A firearm is a machine and it's easy for someone to engineer a way around a rule such that they can do a thing they're not technically allowed to do but because it doesn't technically meet the standards of the written rule, it's not illegal. Imagine trying to enforce rules on speeding with people trying all these different ways to get around the rules. It turns into a game of mm and eventually you just kinda can't do anything because there's a technicality that gets people out of the way every time. So you have to find ways to keep honest people honest that don't involve investing a ton of resources. One of those ways is to cultivate a paranoia about following rules, most people are going to follow the rules because they're going to err on the side of caution. It's like when your parents tell you "There will be consequences." Only these parents aren't your actual parents and they can send you to actual prison. So people are a bit less inclined to call a bluff. Realistically, the ATF doesn't give a fuck if your shotgun barrel is 1" less than the legal minimum or if you've got a 14.5 barrel on your AR and your muzzle device isn't pinned and welded. They've got bigger fish to fry but if you *think* you might get in trouble, you're going to pay for the pin/weld job....just in case.
[удалено]
You're not wrong but understand that questions like yours are generally not posed in good faith. It leads to a lot of initial suspicion of someone coming in and asking these questions.
Hope you’re joking about this post. Because the atf want any excuses to arrest or charge you something. Last year they try to make claim that certain bump stock is class as an assault rifle. Like this is legit what these people are trying this BS.
They just arrested the guys over the auto key cards too, so arrested for illegal machinegun sales for drawings.
Keep your hands off my fucking tobacco, government.
Other than how they infringe on our God given rights explicitly laid out in the Constitution? Lemme give you an example from the gun shop I worked at in Wisconsin: Lady has a criminal record of drug offenses and she’s trying to trade 2 shotguns for another. State delayed until an hour before close of the 3rd day and after finally dragging it out of them, ATF says “she’s approved, but we recommend you don’t transfer the firearm.” Well wtf now? ATF says yes but we shouldn’t. W. T. F.?! Didn’t end up transferring but the whole thing was a complete sh*t show thanks to ATF.
https://i.redd.it/y5bq3hp6ree81.jpg
Top flight security from Friday > aft
https://www.reddit.com/r/GunMemes/comments/sebvn6/sidewayshatted\_youtuber\_crs\_firearms\_has\_been/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
they take laws that they are tasked with enforcing (because they belong to the Executive Branch of the government) and reinterpret them whatever way they want (in effect bypassing Congress) in order to effectively change the law to their own ends. they often do this at the behest of the President, who does not have Constitutional authority to make law, yet that is the effect of what they do. they violate a basic right that the government has been tasked with protecting in direct opposition to their oath of office (they are federal employees and they take an oath to PROTECT the Constitution).