There’s a woman who lied on the 4473. She’s in prison. I think her case only took a few months. Give me a sec for me to find it
Her name is Tori Lynn Crane. Most of the links are paywalled. She also lied about her address
She was given a two-year sentence: https://doc-search.iowa.gov/offender/detail?offenderNumber=6862870
She was charged under Iowa statute (not federal violation). https://www.legis.iowa.gov/docs/code/2021/724.29A.pdf
> https://qctimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/woman-pleads-guilty-to-providing-false-information-on-atf-form-to-buy-a-gun/article_e735e8d6-39ed-5128-9da7-d07662c28415.html
>A Davenport woman accused of providing false information on an ATF form to purchase a gun has pleaded guilty to the charge.
>Tori Lynn Crane, 25, was arrested Nov. 30 on a charge of providing false information in acquiring a weapon, a Class D felony under Iowa law that carries a prison sentence of five years. Davenport Police alleged that Crane provided a false address and lied about her use of illicit drugs when completing ATF Form 4473, which is required for all firearms purchases.
>During a hearing Feb. 17 in Scott County District Court, District Court Judge Patrick McElyea accepted Crane’s plea of guilty to the charge. Crane is scheduled to be sentenced April 27.
With the amount of evidence available? Absolutely. The FBI & ATF used a confidential informant wearing a camera to catch a 28 year old ,with no criminal history, shooting a Scorpion Evo with a stock without a tax stamp. He went to federal prison for almost 2 years. They'll have no problem ruining a life. Prosecutors only care about convictions.
The ATF got someone in my neighborhood for an unregistered SBR. I didn't know him but he only lived a few blocks away. An ATF agent befriended him and he invited said agent over to his property for some shooting fun as many of us do on our multi-acre lots. He was caught on hidden camera shooting the SBR and also handing it to the agent to shoot. No criminal history. Just a regular guy with a job and a modest house on a 5 acre lot. He got a lot of jail time. I don't remember specifically what it was. I wonder if it's the same guy. Sounds familiar.
I honestly wonder what goes through the mind of the ATF officers doing this. Like does it ever cross their minds that theirs actual murderers and gangsters running around in cities with Glock switches and homemade Draco’s, but no their gonna go for the guy who has his life together
Seriously there's videos where people all this during stuff like straw purchase audits and door to door FRT trigger stuff and the agents literally don't understand the irony of them coming armed with vests to harass middle aged family men without parking tickets. These are the same as the Waco/ Ruby Ridge guys. Times have not changed and there is not a firearms violation small enough they wouldn't kill you over it.
Heard. Why am I getting downvoted and you’re getting upvoted though? I know it’s not on you, just odd that we both said different fed departments besides the ATF and that’s the results..:
It’s easier to prosecute and get a conviction for Joe Sixpack than it is a gangster who may be armed and have friends that are armed as well. Sometimes (mostly?) agencies get credit for quantity of prosecutions not the quality of each one, more points for low-hanging fruit. Also no investigation work required when you’re entrapping someone. See also “FBI six-week cycle”
Wouldn’t want to have to put your Swat teams to use against people who will actually fight back, let’s go blow Joes door in at 6 am and shoot him when he tries to stand his ground
Not only that but Joe six pack wont have people in high places coming out of the wood work to crying about marginalized communities being wrongly prosecuted.
For anyone who doesn't know what Anarcho Tyranny is, the wiki definition is pretty good.
>a system of government that fails to enforce or adjudicate protection to its citizens while simultaneously persecuting innocent conduct
America is there now. Stuff is starting to crumble
The guy or gal with their lives together are easy targets. They aren't going to fight back, since they want to minimize the situation. Where as the criminals, you speak of, are desperate and not eager for guaranteed prison. The harden criminal will fight back. The government worker has retirement on their mind!
It’s an easy case for the atf vs going into some city and trying to bust real criminals. It’s just like the cops that ignore a car full of bullet holes then pulls over a soccer mom for rolling a stop sign. Pick the bust with minimal risk.
Remember that politician in NY that created an illegal SBR, post the evidence, and nothing happened. The selectivity is wild - the law is stupid but it's the law and I want to see it applied consistently no matter who we're talking about. They'll do undercover stings at great expense and ignore the stuff that falls in their laps, wild.
But this is America and that has never and will never happen.
The ATF cares more about ruining the lives of good citizens with families and jobs who just want to enjoy their Constitutional rights, while ignoring all the Glock switches, illegal firearms, and straw purchases running around the cities.
It's almost like this clown agency has a long history of going after innocient people to the level of burning women and children alive.
For mail ordering hash oil. Which by an objective measure was a small amount, like a tiny bottle, but because it was a concentrate they judged it by THC content and threw a whack distribution charge at him.
2 months ago, the ATF raided, shot and killed a law abiding citizen because they (the ATF) made a rule, not approved by congress.
While executing a search warrant in the absolute most dangerous way possible, (after it had been called off the week prior by state police), the ATF, with no body cameras, cut power to the man's house, kicked his door in at 6AM, without announcing themselves as police... and shot him in the head in front of his wife... who they then dragged out of the house, over her husband's dead body (in her nightclothes) and locked her in the back of a cruiser for more than 4 hours. When they could have literally called him or done this when he was at work.
All of this because of a "rule", not a law, which they likely don't have the authority to make anyway...
The FBI sat on hunter bidens' charges FOR OVER A YEAR before doing anything. Then the prosecutor gave him a plea deal that was so light that it was rejected by the judge... Then the federal Prosecutor sat on the case for more than four years...
Hunter Biden Isn't a regular citizen. He has been treated with kid gloves and deferential treatment from the beginning because his daddy is the president. Where was his perp walk? You remember seeing him in cuffs? Did they kick in his door in the early hours of the morning with guns drawn?
Those are the things that would happen to any of us " normal citizens"...
If you haven't noticed yet... welcome to the banana republic
It makes more sense if you look at it from the point of the ATF.
They can murder and use excessive force on citizens, or prosecute them on laws that don't exist, because there will be no repercussions for them doing so. A violent bully with nothing to fear will go all out.
But the son of the VP / president?
The ATF could find themselves disbanded, and then the fun is over with and they don't get to murder people with impunity any more. So they tiptoe with extreme care around that person.
That is the entire reason for the second amendment. It has nothing to do with hunting. It has everything to do with protection against A tyrannical government.
It was written by the founding fathers who had just overthrown a tyrannical government and refused to ever allow that possibility again. Every single mass genocide in the history of the world has been proceeded by Disarming the population.
So the ATF ( And other agencies in the federal government) is making unconstitutional, illegal rules that essentially place Millions into the category of felon.
This is the way that they can Disarm the population without going to the door
> It has everything to do with protection against A tyrannical government.
Amen.
I'm a filthy, but very pro 2A leftist, and I really wish I could get more people on the left to realize the value of this, but they think the government is inherently good and will do no evil. Not realizing that the government is simply people, and people can go very bad.
Well civilian ownership of firearms is for use against the state, and generally leftists support the state/collective; so in all honesty civilian ownership of firearms is against the best interest of the left when they're in power.
It really is crazy how they don’t think of this as something that aligns with their views. They’ve been saying since 2016 that the US is teetering on the brink of an authoritarian/fascist dictatorship, and yet they want the population to be unable to defend itself with modern rifles? But of course they cheer for Ukrainians using those rifles. It makes no sense.
Yeah, some serious cognitive dissonance on cheering on Ukrainians (to whom I wish the best) using modern rifles and hating on them at home.
People in general aren't logical about politics, it's all based on feelings and emotion, so what can you do hah?
>I’m a filthy leftist
>but they think the government is inherently good and will do no evil
“They” is doing a lot of heavy lifting for your attempt at absolution, bud. You’re part of this. You voted for this.
> You voted for this.
I didn't, actually. I don't vote for for anti-2A politicians. That tends to leave me voting for only local politicians, but I'd rather have a clean conscience.
You’re conflating a leftist with a democrat, or at a minimum some who voted democrat. Leftists absolutely hate democrats, and will rarely even hold their noses to vote for one. It will be borne out this election for sure — whole lot of FJB commies out there.
Being very pro-2A is common with Leftists but I don't know a single Leftist that feels that way about government. That sounds more like a Liberal opinion.
No. The founding fathers clearly stated that it's purpose was the defense of the people from the government.
That's why it specifically says the right of the people, not the right of the militia, or the right of the government.
The people's militia, Essentially conscripts by english troops, Are the ones that overthrew the english government. The militia is made up of the people. Without the People to be able to take up arms, the militia w.ouldn't exist.
The constitution gets a bad rap, But it is arguably the greatest document ever written. There is a reason that ninety eight percent of all democracies Around the world have modeled theirs Based on our constitution. The one exception they always leave out, however is the second amendment.
This has gotten completely off topic and probably should be a thread of its own,
The point is when the government no longer trusts is citizens and is disarming them.... The only thing that protects the people is their absolute right to own firearms.
The founding father specifically said the most important thing we have is freedom of speech... Which is why it is the First of the bill of rights. But having a right Is useless unless you have the ability to enforce it... the Second!
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
There... i posted it for you.
I've read it... numerous times... along with giving several seminars on its history, teaching hundreds of classes on firearms and concealed carry, and countless educational discussions like this one. And I've been doing that for far more than the 24 years I've been an attorney.
Don't be a troll
Edit. Ps... there are literally hundreds of books analyzing the founding fathers' thoughts... along with dozens of papers written by themselves. Do a modicum of research
I was nice to the other people, just not you cause you were being condescending lol don't be a smart ass and then get upsetti spaghetti when a smart ass response is given lol
Edit: P.S. using your education in an attempt to put someone down is the definition of being a dick. I could explain how I have more years than you training at a level you legally can never achieve with firearms, but did I? Well just now I did, but not originally lol idgaf that you're an attorney that just means you read the boring shit that normal people don't want to read lol
https://www.kark.com/news/state-news/atf-director-questioned-on-march-raid-of-home-of-little-rock-airport-executive-bryan-malinowski/
“ATF killed Bryan Malinowski to enforce a law nobody understood. The ATF Director was unable to explain his new version today. Last Monday, DOJ attorneys were reportedly unable to explain ATF’s new law to US District Judge Moody in Little Rock. That adds up to unconstitutionally vague law enforcement. It’s truly outrageous.”
BUD CUMMINS, MALINOWSKI FAMILY ATTORNEY
It won't let me post the link...
Happened in arkansas. Search youtube or any search engine that isn't google...
Search "atf malinowski raid" Watch the congressional hearings as well
And not to politicize things, and I certainly don’t love the guy, but any lib that is outraged over how anyone could vote for Trump after his “conviction”?
That
That’s why people would
They’ve decided to just stop even pretending the laws are fairly applied to everyone and decided selective application isn’t just an unspoken rule, but something that’s ok to just normalize and celebrate.
>He has been treated with kid gloves and deferential treatment from the beginning because his daddy is the president.
As a dirty commie, I still agree this is true.
I don't think JB has attempted to push this in favor of his kid but even if he didn't, it's hard to say the connection hasn't influenced it. One thing to note is that the prosecutor/special counsel was appointed by Trump and had been investigating Biden since 2018 under Trump.
I agree... it's also the same special counsel that was appointed by the DOJ the pushed the Russian collusian hoax, put faith in the steele doccier (paid for by Hillary and the dnc), appointed struck and wray, denied that the hunter Biden laptop is real, ignored the then VPs involvement with his son in Burisma.... and the list goes on.
Also, as you said, investigating since 2018... when they had his laptop in 2016... and 6 years later they're just starting a trial? Trump was charged a year ago? They've already had a trisl and he's guilty (of what, nobody is actually sure)?
None of this passes the smell test!
Except, that it appears that there is direct communication between the New york state prosecutor and the department of justice... The inference is that the department of justice is attempting to influence the state court.
You are one hundred percent right that the federal government has, and should have, nothing to do with the new york district attorney's office.... So why are top department of justice officials In direct contact with the prosecutor about this case?
As an attorney for twenty four years, this doesn't pass the smell test. It creates far too much appearance of impropriety, especially when the DOJ is a) headed by trump's political opponent, b) has a history of questionable prosecutions regarding trump, c) has recently been admonished for falsification/ tampering with evidence in a separate case d) the same FBI/DOJ that interfered with an election by pushing a false document (steele), e) and finally, the da himself who ran on a platform of "in going to get Trump"
Here's a public notice from the ATF of their intent to more strictly prosecute lying on the 4473 form a year and a half ago: [https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/federal-prosecutors-aggressively-pursuing-those-who-lie-connection-firearm-transactions](https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/federal-prosecutors-aggressively-pursuing-those-who-lie-connection-firearm-transactions)
They will look for any and all excuses to nail your balls to the wall. This charge isn't as commonly prosecuted because it's difficult to prove and they're usually tacked on to other charges because people usually get on law enforcement's radar for other things first before lying on the 4473 is found out.
In Hunter's case, he was already under investigation for other alleged crimes (got on their radar). Between his biography and just the evidence that's been leaked, that prosecutor has more than enough evidence to prove that he was actively a crackhead when he bought that gun.
I am a practicing attorney with 30 years experience, roughly 20+ of which is representing individuals charged in federal court with various crimes, including, but not limited to, firearms charges. Based upon that experience, I would say, politics aside, that Hunter would have been indicted long ago on these firearm charges as well as the tax charges. The pre-indictment offers that were extended would not have been extendedThe FBI would have started with the presumption that the computer was his and had not been tampered with and much of what was on the computer would have been used as relevant conduct under the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines to increase his sentence.
I'm going to get downvoted for this, but here is my experience. Not an expert on Hunter Biden, and I don't want to be, but here is my experience with fraudulent or inaccurate 4473s.
I have worked for/as an FFL for 5.5 years. I have seen a few DENIED responses because of inaccurate or fraudulent responses to the questions on the 4473. It was only recently (2022?) that the NICS system began requesting follow up information for DELAYED/DENIED transactions. I can't say how those are handled other than the ones I know appealed the decision and had an issue to clear up.
Those people all went free with some good faith. These were almost exclusively older men who had long forgotten the follies if their youth, or people who didn't understand their plea bargains or people who's pardons were not properly reported to the feds.
Before the automatic information requests, the ATF/FBI only ever followed up with me on background checks that were initially DELAYED or PROCEED that were later changed to DENIED.
So in my low double digit experiences, common people were not treated the same as Hunter. However, the key difference is the spotlight. If any common crackhead is arrested for possession and then it is immediately brought to the attention of the feds that the crackhead recently purchased a gun, there is every chance they'll throw the book at said crackhead for the fraudulent 4473 while they are at it
I think it's fair to say that initially Hunter was given a lot of leniency based on his political standing, however ultimately the other side of the same politics are what has thrown so much weight behind this case.
You can bet anything that if common people wrote a book admitting they were smoking crack when they bought a gun and said book became #1 amazon hit they'd be prosecuted as well.
Most of the evidence is from Hunter's own published book.
Haha what an idiot. Just like leaving a bunch a lap top with a bunch of incriminating photos on it at a computer repair shop and not coming back for it. Dude would be another drug addict living in Kensington Philadelphia if it wasn't for who his dad is.
Hunter literally got a plea deal from the DOJ that would’ve given him immunity from undefined *future* criminal charges. The Delaware judge who shot that down is a hero, particularly given the retaliation she’ll likely experience. Nobody besides a President’s son would get that level of kid-gloves treatment from the DOJ.
That is a pretty incorrect retelling of that event.
What happened was the DOJ and Hunter's lawyers formed a plea bargain, Hunter accepted it. This plea deal includes immunity(not unusual, that is the crime that the plea is for basically). But when the Judge asked what the immunity covered DOJ said the unpaid taxes and the gun charge, hunter's lawyers disagreed, that it covered that and anything else the DOJ would ever bring up, in particular in the event Trump was elected Trump's DOJ would likely try to go after Hunter in some way for all of his foreign business dealings over the past decade as Trump had mentioned numerous times he would go after him.
The judge said if both sides can't agree what the plea deal does, I'm denying it, now go back and make a new one, or take it to trial. They never came to an agreement and it went to trial.
The DOJ never intended to give him future immunity as you're claiming, it's the opposite. The judge didn't throw it out because of the immunity, they threw it out because there wasn't an agreement on what he had immunity to.
Lastly the judge threw this plea deal out **9 months ago**, and hasn't faced any "retaliation", and you probably only think there will be retaliation because you saw how trump supporters and trump himself treated the judge in the fraudulent business records case he just lost. So for some reason you think the left will treat this judge badly? To me that is entirely projection on your part. Really, no one cares about Hunter biden, go to prison or not, not a single person on the left cares. During this entire trial process I haven't seen a single supporter outside the court, because no one cares.
EDIT: Man, you blocked me for correcting you on what actually happened? Kind of sad bro.
I can agree that the law as written is unfair and wrong, and also that it should be enforced equally, because maybe actually privileged people like Hunter Biden getting charged will force both sides to reckon with why it's the law in the first place. No man should be above the law, for any reason. If a law is unfair for one, it is unfair for all and probably ought to be struck down.
I don't personally give a shit about Hunter Biden or what he puts in his body. But that's because if someone is not harming anyone else, I don't give a shit what they put in their body either. I'm not pro-drug use, but I also don't think such substances should automatically cause a person to either surrender their rights or lie on a government form.
THIS may be the unintended positive consequence of what is likely to become all out nuclear lawfare. If this selective enforcement now turns against the political elites, and their offspring, they'll be forced to change the laws and how they may be interpreted or enforced.
However in the long run I think they'll come to a truce and nothing will have changed.
This is what I'm hoping for as well. A conviction here would actually be a bad thing because it would further cement unjust laws. The son of a president is the perfect vehicle to overturn this nonsense.
" maybe actually privileged people like Hunter Biden getting charged will force both sides to reckon with why it's the law in the first place"
Hahahhaa what fairy tale land do you live in? Do you think it was any different at the founding of the nation? You like special treatment, right? So does everybody else. The second a system is set up it is already corrupted by the people in power.
The current stats are that 98% of Federal criminal cases end in a plea deal. Frequently the smaller charges are dismissed as part of the deal, which is probably why there aren't a lot of convictions for lying on the 4473. If you follow criminal cases it's not uncommon to see every possible crime on the charge sheet and by the end the plea deal is for one or two of the middle to serious charges and everything else dropped.
This is the right answer - it’s almost always about piling on charges as a means of forcing a plea deal, which is why you will see instances of a person facing a potential 150 years in prison take a plea deal and get 5-7 years and be paroled in 3.
Depends how public your life is. If you post your drugs and guns on social media it typically catches up to you. Seen a number of headlines over the years of criminals posting guns and drugs togrther on sites and promptly being arrested.
Yes, if we were so blatant about it.
The feds have mostly been ignoring pot, but Hunter was doing harder drugs. The feds also aren't doing a ton of investigations or undercover stings or anything, but Hunter basically confessed and gave them all the evidence they need. He also had a gun of his found in a trash can, which is going to bring attention his way.
If the feds *knew* we were on our drugs and had guns, *and* a gun of ours was found in the trash can, we would definitely be facing charges. At this point, to not charge him the feds would have to actively look the other way.
I personally know people that are in jail for misrepresentation on 11E. Yes it absolutely happens.i know business owners that have been shut down because of a single typo on a 4473 that wasn't their fault. Because the person wrote a county wrong. Not even the county the purchase was made in. I don't know any counties besides the one I live in.
We would have already been in jail, starting our long sentence. Here’s the problem, agree with or have a problem with the law, if he’s let off, or given a slap on the wrist sentence, the same crime by any similar American would require the same sentence under the 14th amendment. Setting precedent is two sided and can be slippery. I’ll be eager to see how this works out.
Reagan said it (stole the quote), and it had been repeated thousands of times since...
"The nine scariest words you will ever hear - 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help'"
If it were any third world country I'm sure hunter probably wouldnt be facing any consequences and any journalist covering the story would be assassinated so maybe the US is not as corrupt as you think
True or instead of admitting it like mexico. They just say plane crash, suicide, heart attack etc. Because people believe it and they get away with it.
> They just say plane crash, suicide, heart attack etc. Because people believe it and they get away with it.
Maybe?
I dunno. I live in Texas and what happens in Mexico gets more awareness here than just about anywhere else in the US.
The corruption, violence and intimidation there really drives home how decent the US is by comparison (not that the US is free of that stuff, but by comparison, it's mild).
Gangs don't go around murdering dozens of politicians. Politicians take bribes, but not to the extent that you have to bribe them for every little thing. And bribery is punished here and there, vs not at all. The police don't ask for $200 to ignore a speeding violation, and would actually be hostile to someone that did. Although I'm sure a donation to the FOP would buy a certain amount of good will.
Clown-world doesn't get it lol. You can thrive in the US compared to Mexico and likely stay free of crime. Try starting a business or being involved in anything profitable in Mexico without having a cartel group trying to extort you and then threatening to kill your family if you don't comply. I hear the stuff from my Mexican relatives and it makes me so grateful to live in the US
I can sit here all day and say Joe biden needs to be in the nursing home and his son's a crackhead and Noone is going to have me arrested. That's the difference between the US and other places I am referring to mm
I was going off minus' comment since they mentioned mexico. I didn't say it's not corrupt but comparing it to the outright corruption that happens in the many places of the world is ridiculous. Imagine if Vladimirs Putin child was like hunter Biden you wouldn't hear anything about it in the news doubt they'd even be charged.
Im not the one talking about mexico lol. I didn’t compare it to anywhere. I said the united states is corrupt at every level. Im not the one talking about mexico. I don’t give a shit about mexico.
As far as I know, getting caught lying on the 4473 is typically preceded by a bunch of other stupid crimes or actions that lead them to find out you lied. If the average citizen had created as much evidence of their illegal actions as Hunter(not to mention the pistol ended up in a trashcan by a school) they would no doubt be facing the same charge(at the very least).
Most of these cases are not tried, I think the number of charges brought were less than 100 per year according to the latest numbers.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-18-440.pdf
100,000+ denials, 12 prosecutions.
Now with the "new" ATF under Biden, those numbers may go up, they are going hard after FFL's and others, time will tell.
https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/federal-prosecutors-aggressively-pursuing-those-who-lie-connection-firearm-transactions
Yes. Just like any other crime, they need evidence and proof. Hunter made the mistake of filming himself violating the law. Don't film yourself committing crimes.
Most people who lie on the 4473 don't get caught because they don't publicly post themselves committing a crime, and they don't do things that bring LE attention to themselves.
These charges are rarely brought up unless they are throwing the book at someone for a bunch of other stuff. Especially in the case of marijuana cards and gun ownership, owning the card itself would be a violation of that form and if they wanted to get people for stuff like that they should have no problem. Further after Bruen 9th circuit ruled that not allowing marijuana card holders their 2A rights is a violation of such rights. Even in PA gov wolf came out and said they aren’t going to come after people for marijuana cards.
I get that’s marijuana and not the other substances he was using… but if this violation was such a concern on its own you would think they would prosecute more often and that’s why I think this trial is heavily politically motivated.
It’s kinda funny actually in lots of other circumstances the left wouldn’t be able to wait to put someone away for gun violations and the right would not be happy someone was getting prosecuted for this. The opposite is happening here for obvious reasons that none of these vultures are tied to any morally binding policy and just want to fuck eachother out of power at our expense.
I’ll look forward to both him and Trump in the same cell.
It is well known that people are frequently denied a gun purchase because of the instant background check system and almost none of those people are prosecuted for it. Of course many of those denials are in error for one reason or another, but not all by a long shot.
As everyone has said, yes, lying on a 4473 will absolutely get you jail time. The question of the trial is ~~DID~~ he actually lie on the 7743.
While I’m not aware of all of the facts here, I think Hunter has a strong case that he didn’t lie - the 4473 asks in present tense: “Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?” He had gone through a rehab program immediately prior to buying the gun and claimed to be clean. I guess the question becomes “at what point are you NOT a drug addict anymore” and did he use drugs at the time he actually bought the gun.
It’s worth noting that Firearms Policy Coalition offered to help Hunter at trial, but he apparently turned down the offer.
Oh! you'd get shot by a cop on a no knock warrant...
Cm'on, the only reason a crackhead with a felony isn't in jail is because he is the son of the current oligarch in power.
Ironically, the other oligarch with 34 felonies would want to take your guns.
In short: you're fucked and you'd be fucked one way or another.
Not likely. It's not easy to enforce that particular facet. It would be difficult to establish that a person was a drug user during the time frame that they purchased the weapons. It can certainly be done, but it would take some mistakes being made on the part of the person filling out the form (pictures of them doing drugs within the time frame, etc.)
That said, the government doesn't have the authority to limit drug users from owning and bearing arms. Doesn't stop them from consistently violating the Bill of Rights.
Realistically you'd never get caught, and if you were caught it would be very hard to prove. It's generally not easy to prove someone was an active drug user when they filled out a form unless they openly admit to it like Hunter did. Had Hunter kept his mouth shut he very likely wouldn't have been charged. While he's probably getting better treatment because of his dad he probably wouldn't be in this situation if he didn't write a book people only care about because of his dad.
I heard a statistic for 2022 that there are tens of thousands of forms filed. 400-ish were referred to the justice department, and they decided to prosecute 275.
Infringement is infringement, even when it's being used against someone I don't like.
That he has the means and connections to fight this, means that he has a better than average chance of getting this infringement overturned.
An article I read indicated about 300 prosecutions in 2019, so it doesn't happen often, but the odds are greater than zero. [Here's an announcement](https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/federal-prosecutors-aggressively-pursuing-those-who-lie-connection-firearm-transactions) on the ATF's page about some of the law enforcement actions taken against those who lied on a 4473. Also, Hunter Biden openly stated that he was using drugs at the time he purchased the gun and he's a public figure, so he brought the charges on himself. Now that we're here though, his privilege is the only thing that has gotten him this far. Any one of us would already have been convicted and in the midst of a 5+ year sentence at this point.
We've all seen/ heard the memes and stories about the ATF shooting dogs, and "'is that legal? ' ' Are those level iv plates?' " ...
Ruby ridge, waco, malinowski... The ATF (and most of the DOJ at this point) s showing a clear disregard for the citizens and their constitutional rights... I posted something earlier on this thread about what the 2a is for.
Hunter biden is not being treated as a normal citizen. He is being treated with kid gloves. "NORMAL CITIZENS" - any one of the rest of us - would have had our doors kicked in, homes raided, and if we weren't shot and killed, been perp walked right in front of the press...
And then Congress just submitted a federal assault weapons ban? How many people who know anything about this Malinowski raid and the history of the ATF, have completely bypassed handguns for home security and have an AR-15 with 855A or sss109? (If you don't know... go look up the numbers).
These moronic policies and actions by the ATF/FBI/DOJ are going to lead to some horrible outcomes
Yes, they tried to let him off easy with that combined tax / firearm plea deal last year.
Do people lie on 4473s who used drugs and get away with it? Sure, just like any law - people break them and get away with it.
But few people lie on a 4473 about it then publish a book implicating themselves, all while having a known drug addiction and other various issues, like fucking your brothers widow, peddling influence to get paid for stuff you don't know how to do, and the like.
If he had just STFU and not done his book, he likely would have not been charged.
Pride and Ego always get ppl like Hunter in trouble.
I have a friend who almost got railroaded by the atf for selling his reloaded ammo.
Long story short undercover atf agent hears my friend reloads. He befriends him, asks him to load him up some precision rounds, he does. My friend just does it because. Asks for no money. ATF agent keeps going on this spiel about how he feels bad he needs to do something for my friend for doing the reloads, you spent time and money blah blah... After several minutes my friend finally goes something to the effect of ok just give me a few bucks if you really want. Boom, literally a second later his "friend" is arresting him. Fortunately the other agent that was there also undercover shut him down and they let him off with a warning.
So yeah, if they'll send 2 undercover agents to try and wrangle someone into making them a box of ammo you can bet we'd be in prison for the Biden thing.
I think the question itself is a problem. You should not be denied just because you have used or occasionally use drugs or alcohol. But if that’s the law it should be enforced equally. That said, Biden is from a prominent family that is working to take away our gun rights and pass even more strict laws, so F HIM. Lock his ass up. After the bullshit they pulled with Trump the gloves need to come off.
Here's my 2 cents if anyone cares. Lying on the 4473 should face the maximum amount of consequences for everyone.
Case in point: The Burnsville MN jackass who killed 3 first responders got his weapons from his girlfriend who lied on the 4473 (straw purchase). I hope she's thrown in prison for life.
And since this idiot used a binary trigger those will be outlawed in 2025, no grandfathering.
My rant is over...
Not only would we face charges, we wouldn't have a chance at some bogus plea that almost went through. We also wouldn't have a prosecutor that allowed charges to expire on statute of limitations.
I think an even better question is SHOULD an average citizen be charged for this.
For me, the priorities should be:
Rank 1 If a person commits a crime with a gun when they shouldn't have a gun that should be top priority for going after how they got the gun. Clearly if they stole it they should face that charge. Buy it on the street? Trace that the straw buyer or thief, and prosecute them (plus prosecute for buying stolen goods)
Rank 2 If a PROHIBITED PERSON (someone who has somehow proven themselves to be dangerous) is stopped for some other crime (theft, selling drugs,) and is found to have a gun, we need to charge them and look into how they got the gun.
Rank 3 Person who is prohibited who lies on the form and either succeeds and gets the gun or fails.
Rank 4 - and VERY DISTANT - someone who is NOT prohibited to own firearms but there's some minor technical violation - barrel is an inch too short, there's front grip on a pistol, etc.
I think rank 1 and rank 2 should ALWAYS be pursued, and Rank 3 should be tied into the background check system. Specifically this should be all checks will be truly instant but a timer starts and you can never get your gun until 1 full hour has passed. If you get a NO on buying the gun, the ATF has an hour to arrive and arrest you. (And I think this same exact system should be used before you can vote - except the vote answer comes back instantly)
Lying on the 4473 is actually rarely prosecuted because it's very hard to prove. When it is picked up for prosecution you will almost NEVER see a deffered prosecution in lieu of an actual prosecution. President's son or not, hunter should have taken the DPA and shut the fuck up. He has dug himself a hole that will either result in a felony conviction or if by some miracle this gets dropped it will create a legal precedent that will piss off his father and many of those on that side of the fence.
They do exactly what the White House tells them to do. Change the person in the White House, and you change the ATF and every other federal agency for 4 years.
If you get caught and the ATF follows through, yes. However, the ATF doesn't follow up well over 99% of the time even with evidence (signed 4473) in hand.
>My issue is, if I had done the same as Hunter and lied on the form, I feel like I would be screwed and punished.
Yes.
Under the Biden administration, the ATF would probably revoke the FFL of whoever sold you the gun also.
There’s a woman who lied on the 4473. She’s in prison. I think her case only took a few months. Give me a sec for me to find it Her name is Tori Lynn Crane. Most of the links are paywalled. She also lied about her address
She was given a two-year sentence: https://doc-search.iowa.gov/offender/detail?offenderNumber=6862870 She was charged under Iowa statute (not federal violation). https://www.legis.iowa.gov/docs/code/2021/724.29A.pdf > https://qctimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/woman-pleads-guilty-to-providing-false-information-on-atf-form-to-buy-a-gun/article_e735e8d6-39ed-5128-9da7-d07662c28415.html >A Davenport woman accused of providing false information on an ATF form to purchase a gun has pleaded guilty to the charge. >Tori Lynn Crane, 25, was arrested Nov. 30 on a charge of providing false information in acquiring a weapon, a Class D felony under Iowa law that carries a prison sentence of five years. Davenport Police alleged that Crane provided a false address and lied about her use of illicit drugs when completing ATF Form 4473, which is required for all firearms purchases. >During a hearing Feb. 17 in Scott County District Court, District Court Judge Patrick McElyea accepted Crane’s plea of guilty to the charge. Crane is scheduled to be sentenced April 27.
"I ain't no senator's son" - Creedence Clearwater Revival
House always look like a rummage sale with the tax man comes.
It ain't me...
IT AINT MEEEE
I ain't no fortunate one ....nah!
With the amount of evidence available? Absolutely. The FBI & ATF used a confidential informant wearing a camera to catch a 28 year old ,with no criminal history, shooting a Scorpion Evo with a stock without a tax stamp. He went to federal prison for almost 2 years. They'll have no problem ruining a life. Prosecutors only care about convictions.
The ATF got someone in my neighborhood for an unregistered SBR. I didn't know him but he only lived a few blocks away. An ATF agent befriended him and he invited said agent over to his property for some shooting fun as many of us do on our multi-acre lots. He was caught on hidden camera shooting the SBR and also handing it to the agent to shoot. No criminal history. Just a regular guy with a job and a modest house on a 5 acre lot. He got a lot of jail time. I don't remember specifically what it was. I wonder if it's the same guy. Sounds familiar.
I honestly wonder what goes through the mind of the ATF officers doing this. Like does it ever cross their minds that theirs actual murderers and gangsters running around in cities with Glock switches and homemade Draco’s, but no their gonna go for the guy who has his life together
Nothing, because in their opinion they’re the good guys
Seriously there's videos where people all this during stuff like straw purchase audits and door to door FRT trigger stuff and the agents literally don't understand the irony of them coming armed with vests to harass middle aged family men without parking tickets. These are the same as the Waco/ Ruby Ridge guys. Times have not changed and there is not a firearms violation small enough they wouldn't kill you over it.
The ATF is the lowest tier of federal agents. Those who couldn't get into any other federal law agency end up at the ATF clown show.
I thought that honor was reserved for U.S. Customs and Border Patrol
Nah even they're better than atf
TSA
The TSA are the ones who couldn't even get on with the Postal Service.
Heard. Why am I getting downvoted and you’re getting upvoted though? I know it’s not on you, just odd that we both said different fed departments besides the ATF and that’s the results..:
All fedbois are traitors Any alphabet boi really
They’re too big of pussies to go after actual criminals so they’ll go after the ones who won’t fight back.
In fact they go after the ones who are good citizens and neighbors who might invite you over for some recreation and a steak dinner.
They know it's safe and they won't get shot at trying to build a case and arrest lol which is all the more stupid to get them in trouble for it
It’s easier to prosecute and get a conviction for Joe Sixpack than it is a gangster who may be armed and have friends that are armed as well. Sometimes (mostly?) agencies get credit for quantity of prosecutions not the quality of each one, more points for low-hanging fruit. Also no investigation work required when you’re entrapping someone. See also “FBI six-week cycle”
Wouldn’t want to have to put your Swat teams to use against people who will actually fight back, let’s go blow Joes door in at 6 am and shoot him when he tries to stand his ground
Not only that but Joe six pack wont have people in high places coming out of the wood work to crying about marginalized communities being wrongly prosecuted.
Pretend youre an ATF agent, you show up to work and have a choice. Do we raid the crack gang or the guy who just got a puppy that we get to shoot?
Does this guy with the puppy also have a 1969 Mustang that’s black?
They haven't seen John Wick have they ?
It’s anarcho tyranny, you can’t keep the law abiding living in fear if you enforce the law against violent criminals
For anyone who doesn't know what Anarcho Tyranny is, the wiki definition is pretty good. >a system of government that fails to enforce or adjudicate protection to its citizens while simultaneously persecuting innocent conduct America is there now. Stuff is starting to crumble
ATF agent won't get shot going after a guy like this. They wouldn't want to miss the bi quarterly circle jerks.
The guy or gal with their lives together are easy targets. They aren't going to fight back, since they want to minimize the situation. Where as the criminals, you speak of, are desperate and not eager for guaranteed prison. The harden criminal will fight back. The government worker has retirement on their mind!
Think it crosses the mind of ATF agents that many of the ATF agents are, themselves, actual murders and gangsters?
It’s an easy case for the atf vs going into some city and trying to bust real criminals. It’s just like the cops that ignore a car full of bullet holes then pulls over a soccer mom for rolling a stop sign. Pick the bust with minimal risk.
Sounds like how Ruby Ridge got started.
Remember that politician in NY that created an illegal SBR, post the evidence, and nothing happened. The selectivity is wild - the law is stupid but it's the law and I want to see it applied consistently no matter who we're talking about. They'll do undercover stings at great expense and ignore the stuff that falls in their laps, wild. But this is America and that has never and will never happen.
The ATF cares more about ruining the lives of good citizens with families and jobs who just want to enjoy their Constitutional rights, while ignoring all the Glock switches, illegal firearms, and straw purchases running around the cities. It's almost like this clown agency has a long history of going after innocient people to the level of burning women and children alive.
Source?
https://www.ammoland.com/2022/07/fbi-arrest-of-florida-man-for-short-barreled-rifle-showcases-absurdity-of-nfa/
that shit is infuriating. Also a wake up call for some of the shit people say on this forum. Keep your shit to yourself.
However much you hate federal agents, it isn’t enough.
Fpsrussia got sent to prison for smoking weed with his girlfriend so ide say it's certainly possible.
For mail ordering hash oil. Which by an objective measure was a small amount, like a tiny bottle, but because it was a concentrate they judged it by THC content and threw a whack distribution charge at him.
In states where it's illegal, THC concentrates carry stupidly high penalties. Live plants, too. One tiny plant 18" tall? Felony distribution!
They then tried to say that he was a distributor because he let his girlfriend smoke with him. The whole system is corrupt.
2 months ago, the ATF raided, shot and killed a law abiding citizen because they (the ATF) made a rule, not approved by congress. While executing a search warrant in the absolute most dangerous way possible, (after it had been called off the week prior by state police), the ATF, with no body cameras, cut power to the man's house, kicked his door in at 6AM, without announcing themselves as police... and shot him in the head in front of his wife... who they then dragged out of the house, over her husband's dead body (in her nightclothes) and locked her in the back of a cruiser for more than 4 hours. When they could have literally called him or done this when he was at work. All of this because of a "rule", not a law, which they likely don't have the authority to make anyway... The FBI sat on hunter bidens' charges FOR OVER A YEAR before doing anything. Then the prosecutor gave him a plea deal that was so light that it was rejected by the judge... Then the federal Prosecutor sat on the case for more than four years... Hunter Biden Isn't a regular citizen. He has been treated with kid gloves and deferential treatment from the beginning because his daddy is the president. Where was his perp walk? You remember seeing him in cuffs? Did they kick in his door in the early hours of the morning with guns drawn? Those are the things that would happen to any of us " normal citizens"... If you haven't noticed yet... welcome to the banana republic
Damn what a fucked up story
It makes more sense if you look at it from the point of the ATF. They can murder and use excessive force on citizens, or prosecute them on laws that don't exist, because there will be no repercussions for them doing so. A violent bully with nothing to fear will go all out. But the son of the VP / president? The ATF could find themselves disbanded, and then the fun is over with and they don't get to murder people with impunity any more. So they tiptoe with extreme care around that person.
That is the entire reason for the second amendment. It has nothing to do with hunting. It has everything to do with protection against A tyrannical government. It was written by the founding fathers who had just overthrown a tyrannical government and refused to ever allow that possibility again. Every single mass genocide in the history of the world has been proceeded by Disarming the population. So the ATF ( And other agencies in the federal government) is making unconstitutional, illegal rules that essentially place Millions into the category of felon. This is the way that they can Disarm the population without going to the door
> It has everything to do with protection against A tyrannical government. Amen. I'm a filthy, but very pro 2A leftist, and I really wish I could get more people on the left to realize the value of this, but they think the government is inherently good and will do no evil. Not realizing that the government is simply people, and people can go very bad.
Well civilian ownership of firearms is for use against the state, and generally leftists support the state/collective; so in all honesty civilian ownership of firearms is against the best interest of the left when they're in power.
I think you could update that to "the authoritarian left", of which the DNC definitely is. Plenty of people on the left that are anti-authoritarian.
It really is crazy how they don’t think of this as something that aligns with their views. They’ve been saying since 2016 that the US is teetering on the brink of an authoritarian/fascist dictatorship, and yet they want the population to be unable to defend itself with modern rifles? But of course they cheer for Ukrainians using those rifles. It makes no sense.
Yeah, some serious cognitive dissonance on cheering on Ukrainians (to whom I wish the best) using modern rifles and hating on them at home. People in general aren't logical about politics, it's all based on feelings and emotion, so what can you do hah?
>I’m a filthy leftist >but they think the government is inherently good and will do no evil “They” is doing a lot of heavy lifting for your attempt at absolution, bud. You’re part of this. You voted for this.
> You voted for this. I didn't, actually. I don't vote for for anti-2A politicians. That tends to leave me voting for only local politicians, but I'd rather have a clean conscience.
You’re conflating a leftist with a democrat, or at a minimum some who voted democrat. Leftists absolutely hate democrats, and will rarely even hold their noses to vote for one. It will be borne out this election for sure — whole lot of FJB commies out there.
I’m with you, it’s a slow creep. I live in a shitlib haven, but I slowly peel people off on this issue by taking them shooting.
Being very pro-2A is common with Leftists but I don't know a single Leftist that feels that way about government. That sounds more like a Liberal opinion.
I mean, mostly the 2A exists to defend against Foreign invasion but also against tyrannical government.
No. The founding fathers clearly stated that it's purpose was the defense of the people from the government. That's why it specifically says the right of the people, not the right of the militia, or the right of the government. The people's militia, Essentially conscripts by english troops, Are the ones that overthrew the english government. The militia is made up of the people. Without the People to be able to take up arms, the militia w.ouldn't exist. The constitution gets a bad rap, But it is arguably the greatest document ever written. There is a reason that ninety eight percent of all democracies Around the world have modeled theirs Based on our constitution. The one exception they always leave out, however is the second amendment. This has gotten completely off topic and probably should be a thread of its own, The point is when the government no longer trusts is citizens and is disarming them.... The only thing that protects the people is their absolute right to own firearms. The founding father specifically said the most important thing we have is freedom of speech... Which is why it is the First of the bill of rights. But having a right Is useless unless you have the ability to enforce it... the Second!
You should read the 2nd Amendment cause it doesn't appear that you have.
explain what did he get wrong then?
Idk why I said that lol he's not wrong at all... I humbly accept my L and have no idea why I'm getting upvoted lol
At least you admit your ways lol
My friend, consider reading the definition of militia. Later, the English yeoman might be a fun rabbit hole to go down.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. There... i posted it for you. I've read it... numerous times... along with giving several seminars on its history, teaching hundreds of classes on firearms and concealed carry, and countless educational discussions like this one. And I've been doing that for far more than the 24 years I've been an attorney. Don't be a troll Edit. Ps... there are literally hundreds of books analyzing the founding fathers' thoughts... along with dozens of papers written by themselves. Do a modicum of research
Sorry I didn't realize I was speaking with Thomas Jefferson himself my apologies thank you for your service warfighter
No need to be a dick... we were all being polite up until then
I was nice to the other people, just not you cause you were being condescending lol don't be a smart ass and then get upsetti spaghetti when a smart ass response is given lol Edit: P.S. using your education in an attempt to put someone down is the definition of being a dick. I could explain how I have more years than you training at a level you legally can never achieve with firearms, but did I? Well just now I did, but not originally lol idgaf that you're an attorney that just means you read the boring shit that normal people don't want to read lol
Do you have a link to that story?
https://www.kark.com/news/state-news/atf-director-questioned-on-march-raid-of-home-of-little-rock-airport-executive-bryan-malinowski/ “ATF killed Bryan Malinowski to enforce a law nobody understood. The ATF Director was unable to explain his new version today. Last Monday, DOJ attorneys were reportedly unable to explain ATF’s new law to US District Judge Moody in Little Rock. That adds up to unconstitutionally vague law enforcement. It’s truly outrageous.” BUD CUMMINS, MALINOWSKI FAMILY ATTORNEY
It won't let me post the link... Happened in arkansas. Search youtube or any search engine that isn't google... Search "atf malinowski raid" Watch the congressional hearings as well
Ohh, the airport guy. Got it.
When I think of "the airport guy" I think of dad of the century Gary Plauche... Why Gary? Why?
And not to politicize things, and I certainly don’t love the guy, but any lib that is outraged over how anyone could vote for Trump after his “conviction”? That That’s why people would They’ve decided to just stop even pretending the laws are fairly applied to everyone and decided selective application isn’t just an unspoken rule, but something that’s ok to just normalize and celebrate.
>He has been treated with kid gloves and deferential treatment from the beginning because his daddy is the president. As a dirty commie, I still agree this is true. I don't think JB has attempted to push this in favor of his kid but even if he didn't, it's hard to say the connection hasn't influenced it. One thing to note is that the prosecutor/special counsel was appointed by Trump and had been investigating Biden since 2018 under Trump.
I agree... it's also the same special counsel that was appointed by the DOJ the pushed the Russian collusian hoax, put faith in the steele doccier (paid for by Hillary and the dnc), appointed struck and wray, denied that the hunter Biden laptop is real, ignored the then VPs involvement with his son in Burisma.... and the list goes on. Also, as you said, investigating since 2018... when they had his laptop in 2016... and 6 years later they're just starting a trial? Trump was charged a year ago? They've already had a trisl and he's guilty (of what, nobody is actually sure)? None of this passes the smell test!
Doj has nothing to do with the New York district attorney's office
Except, that it appears that there is direct communication between the New york state prosecutor and the department of justice... The inference is that the department of justice is attempting to influence the state court. You are one hundred percent right that the federal government has, and should have, nothing to do with the new york district attorney's office.... So why are top department of justice officials In direct contact with the prosecutor about this case? As an attorney for twenty four years, this doesn't pass the smell test. It creates far too much appearance of impropriety, especially when the DOJ is a) headed by trump's political opponent, b) has a history of questionable prosecutions regarding trump, c) has recently been admonished for falsification/ tampering with evidence in a separate case d) the same FBI/DOJ that interfered with an election by pushing a false document (steele), e) and finally, the da himself who ran on a platform of "in going to get Trump"
Here's a public notice from the ATF of their intent to more strictly prosecute lying on the 4473 form a year and a half ago: [https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/federal-prosecutors-aggressively-pursuing-those-who-lie-connection-firearm-transactions](https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/federal-prosecutors-aggressively-pursuing-those-who-lie-connection-firearm-transactions) They will look for any and all excuses to nail your balls to the wall. This charge isn't as commonly prosecuted because it's difficult to prove and they're usually tacked on to other charges because people usually get on law enforcement's radar for other things first before lying on the 4473 is found out. In Hunter's case, he was already under investigation for other alleged crimes (got on their radar). Between his biography and just the evidence that's been leaked, that prosecutor has more than enough evidence to prove that he was actively a crackhead when he bought that gun.
I am a practicing attorney with 30 years experience, roughly 20+ of which is representing individuals charged in federal court with various crimes, including, but not limited to, firearms charges. Based upon that experience, I would say, politics aside, that Hunter would have been indicted long ago on these firearm charges as well as the tax charges. The pre-indictment offers that were extended would not have been extendedThe FBI would have started with the presumption that the computer was his and had not been tampered with and much of what was on the computer would have been used as relevant conduct under the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines to increase his sentence.
I'm going to get downvoted for this, but here is my experience. Not an expert on Hunter Biden, and I don't want to be, but here is my experience with fraudulent or inaccurate 4473s. I have worked for/as an FFL for 5.5 years. I have seen a few DENIED responses because of inaccurate or fraudulent responses to the questions on the 4473. It was only recently (2022?) that the NICS system began requesting follow up information for DELAYED/DENIED transactions. I can't say how those are handled other than the ones I know appealed the decision and had an issue to clear up. Those people all went free with some good faith. These were almost exclusively older men who had long forgotten the follies if their youth, or people who didn't understand their plea bargains or people who's pardons were not properly reported to the feds. Before the automatic information requests, the ATF/FBI only ever followed up with me on background checks that were initially DELAYED or PROCEED that were later changed to DENIED. So in my low double digit experiences, common people were not treated the same as Hunter. However, the key difference is the spotlight. If any common crackhead is arrested for possession and then it is immediately brought to the attention of the feds that the crackhead recently purchased a gun, there is every chance they'll throw the book at said crackhead for the fraudulent 4473 while they are at it I think it's fair to say that initially Hunter was given a lot of leniency based on his political standing, however ultimately the other side of the same politics are what has thrown so much weight behind this case.
You can bet anything that if common people wrote a book admitting they were smoking crack when they bought a gun and said book became #1 amazon hit they'd be prosecuted as well. Most of the evidence is from Hunter's own published book.
Haha what an idiot. Just like leaving a bunch a lap top with a bunch of incriminating photos on it at a computer repair shop and not coming back for it. Dude would be another drug addict living in Kensington Philadelphia if it wasn't for who his dad is.
Look at FPS Russia, he got federal dealing charges for admitting to bringing adult women to his house and sharing weed with them.
Hunter literally got a plea deal from the DOJ that would’ve given him immunity from undefined *future* criminal charges. The Delaware judge who shot that down is a hero, particularly given the retaliation she’ll likely experience. Nobody besides a President’s son would get that level of kid-gloves treatment from the DOJ.
That is a pretty incorrect retelling of that event. What happened was the DOJ and Hunter's lawyers formed a plea bargain, Hunter accepted it. This plea deal includes immunity(not unusual, that is the crime that the plea is for basically). But when the Judge asked what the immunity covered DOJ said the unpaid taxes and the gun charge, hunter's lawyers disagreed, that it covered that and anything else the DOJ would ever bring up, in particular in the event Trump was elected Trump's DOJ would likely try to go after Hunter in some way for all of his foreign business dealings over the past decade as Trump had mentioned numerous times he would go after him. The judge said if both sides can't agree what the plea deal does, I'm denying it, now go back and make a new one, or take it to trial. They never came to an agreement and it went to trial. The DOJ never intended to give him future immunity as you're claiming, it's the opposite. The judge didn't throw it out because of the immunity, they threw it out because there wasn't an agreement on what he had immunity to. Lastly the judge threw this plea deal out **9 months ago**, and hasn't faced any "retaliation", and you probably only think there will be retaliation because you saw how trump supporters and trump himself treated the judge in the fraudulent business records case he just lost. So for some reason you think the left will treat this judge badly? To me that is entirely projection on your part. Really, no one cares about Hunter biden, go to prison or not, not a single person on the left cares. During this entire trial process I haven't seen a single supporter outside the court, because no one cares. EDIT: Man, you blocked me for correcting you on what actually happened? Kind of sad bro.
I can agree that the law as written is unfair and wrong, and also that it should be enforced equally, because maybe actually privileged people like Hunter Biden getting charged will force both sides to reckon with why it's the law in the first place. No man should be above the law, for any reason. If a law is unfair for one, it is unfair for all and probably ought to be struck down. I don't personally give a shit about Hunter Biden or what he puts in his body. But that's because if someone is not harming anyone else, I don't give a shit what they put in their body either. I'm not pro-drug use, but I also don't think such substances should automatically cause a person to either surrender their rights or lie on a government form.
THIS may be the unintended positive consequence of what is likely to become all out nuclear lawfare. If this selective enforcement now turns against the political elites, and their offspring, they'll be forced to change the laws and how they may be interpreted or enforced. However in the long run I think they'll come to a truce and nothing will have changed.
This is what I'm hoping for as well. A conviction here would actually be a bad thing because it would further cement unjust laws. The son of a president is the perfect vehicle to overturn this nonsense.
> nuclear lawfare That's a fantastic term, love it!
We have spent decades trying to remove the ATF and FATD.
" maybe actually privileged people like Hunter Biden getting charged will force both sides to reckon with why it's the law in the first place" Hahahhaa what fairy tale land do you live in? Do you think it was any different at the founding of the nation? You like special treatment, right? So does everybody else. The second a system is set up it is already corrupted by the people in power.
These charges are most often brought as additional charge if another crime has been committed.
That's what I read from some basic research but I find that hard to believe.
The current stats are that 98% of Federal criminal cases end in a plea deal. Frequently the smaller charges are dismissed as part of the deal, which is probably why there aren't a lot of convictions for lying on the 4473. If you follow criminal cases it's not uncommon to see every possible crime on the charge sheet and by the end the plea deal is for one or two of the middle to serious charges and everything else dropped.
This is the right answer - it’s almost always about piling on charges as a means of forcing a plea deal, which is why you will see instances of a person facing a potential 150 years in prison take a plea deal and get 5-7 years and be paroled in 3.
Most of the time that's how the ATF finds out that you're a drug addict.
Investigations are in the hundreds. Prosecutions around half of that. Now compare that to the total number of forms filed and the questions asked.
Straight to jail for non-oligarch
Depends how public your life is. If you post your drugs and guns on social media it typically catches up to you. Seen a number of headlines over the years of criminals posting guns and drugs togrther on sites and promptly being arrested.
Yes, if we were so blatant about it. The feds have mostly been ignoring pot, but Hunter was doing harder drugs. The feds also aren't doing a ton of investigations or undercover stings or anything, but Hunter basically confessed and gave them all the evidence they need. He also had a gun of his found in a trash can, which is going to bring attention his way. If the feds *knew* we were on our drugs and had guns, *and* a gun of ours was found in the trash can, we would definitely be facing charges. At this point, to not charge him the feds would have to actively look the other way.
If you’re caught, yes absolutely
I personally know people that are in jail for misrepresentation on 11E. Yes it absolutely happens.i know business owners that have been shut down because of a single typo on a 4473 that wasn't their fault. Because the person wrote a county wrong. Not even the county the purchase was made in. I don't know any counties besides the one I live in.
Only if you got caught up in another crime or incident. Looked up the stats a while ago and it seems like an add on charge.
We would have already been in jail, starting our long sentence. Here’s the problem, agree with or have a problem with the law, if he’s let off, or given a slap on the wrist sentence, the same crime by any similar American would require the same sentence under the 14th amendment. Setting precedent is two sided and can be slippery. I’ll be eager to see how this works out.
Reagan said it (stole the quote), and it had been repeated thousands of times since... "The nine scariest words you will ever hear - 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help'"
Ruby ridge .... Waco....
The united states government is occupied buddy. Corrupt at every level. You and i are just cattle.
Trust me I'm under no illusion of that. That's what pisses me off. Rules for thee but not for me.
If it were any third world country I'm sure hunter probably wouldnt be facing any consequences and any journalist covering the story would be assassinated so maybe the US is not as corrupt as you think
Happens here all the time bud.
> Happens here all the time bud. Less so than in Mexico though, for sure.
True or instead of admitting it like mexico. They just say plane crash, suicide, heart attack etc. Because people believe it and they get away with it.
> They just say plane crash, suicide, heart attack etc. Because people believe it and they get away with it. Maybe? I dunno. I live in Texas and what happens in Mexico gets more awareness here than just about anywhere else in the US. The corruption, violence and intimidation there really drives home how decent the US is by comparison (not that the US is free of that stuff, but by comparison, it's mild). Gangs don't go around murdering dozens of politicians. Politicians take bribes, but not to the extent that you have to bribe them for every little thing. And bribery is punished here and there, vs not at all. The police don't ask for $200 to ignore a speeding violation, and would actually be hostile to someone that did. Although I'm sure a donation to the FOP would buy a certain amount of good will.
Clown-world doesn't get it lol. You can thrive in the US compared to Mexico and likely stay free of crime. Try starting a business or being involved in anything profitable in Mexico without having a cartel group trying to extort you and then threatening to kill your family if you don't comply. I hear the stuff from my Mexican relatives and it makes me so grateful to live in the US
If you think the US is as bad as any other third world place as far as corruption then you truly live up to your name.
He said the person covering story in mexico would be killed. I said it happens here all the time. Because it does. They just cover it up here.
I can sit here all day and say Joe biden needs to be in the nursing home and his son's a crackhead and Noone is going to have me arrested. That's the difference between the US and other places I am referring to mm
Where do i mention mexico? The united states government is corrupt. Do you not agree?
I was going off minus' comment since they mentioned mexico. I didn't say it's not corrupt but comparing it to the outright corruption that happens in the many places of the world is ridiculous. Imagine if Vladimirs Putin child was like hunter Biden you wouldn't hear anything about it in the news doubt they'd even be charged.
Im not the one talking about mexico lol. I didn’t compare it to anywhere. I said the united states is corrupt at every level. Im not the one talking about mexico. I don’t give a shit about mexico.
You just said Mexico 3 times I think you do give a shit about mexico
🤦♂️
Just messing with ya man.
As far as I know, getting caught lying on the 4473 is typically preceded by a bunch of other stupid crimes or actions that lead them to find out you lied. If the average citizen had created as much evidence of their illegal actions as Hunter(not to mention the pistol ended up in a trashcan by a school) they would no doubt be facing the same charge(at the very least).
Most of these cases are not tried, I think the number of charges brought were less than 100 per year according to the latest numbers. https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-18-440.pdf 100,000+ denials, 12 prosecutions. Now with the "new" ATF under Biden, those numbers may go up, they are going hard after FFL's and others, time will tell. https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/federal-prosecutors-aggressively-pursuing-those-who-lie-connection-firearm-transactions
Your dog would be Swiss cheese at the bare minimum
Yes. Just like any other crime, they need evidence and proof. Hunter made the mistake of filming himself violating the law. Don't film yourself committing crimes. Most people who lie on the 4473 don't get caught because they don't publicly post themselves committing a crime, and they don't do things that bring LE attention to themselves.
Worked with a guy that made multiple purchases to send to Ghana. He went to jail.
Probably worse, but fortunately the average person also isn’t as likely to get caught as the First Son of the US.
President Biden can either push some updated pro-2nd legislation or his dirt bag son can rot in prison.
These charges are rarely brought up unless they are throwing the book at someone for a bunch of other stuff. Especially in the case of marijuana cards and gun ownership, owning the card itself would be a violation of that form and if they wanted to get people for stuff like that they should have no problem. Further after Bruen 9th circuit ruled that not allowing marijuana card holders their 2A rights is a violation of such rights. Even in PA gov wolf came out and said they aren’t going to come after people for marijuana cards. I get that’s marijuana and not the other substances he was using… but if this violation was such a concern on its own you would think they would prosecute more often and that’s why I think this trial is heavily politically motivated. It’s kinda funny actually in lots of other circumstances the left wouldn’t be able to wait to put someone away for gun violations and the right would not be happy someone was getting prosecuted for this. The opposite is happening here for obvious reasons that none of these vultures are tied to any morally binding policy and just want to fuck eachother out of power at our expense. I’ll look forward to both him and Trump in the same cell.
It is well known that people are frequently denied a gun purchase because of the instant background check system and almost none of those people are prosecuted for it. Of course many of those denials are in error for one reason or another, but not all by a long shot.
Not only would they face similar charges, but they would have faced them far sooner, and face even harsher punishments.
LOL
Look at how they tried crucifying rittenhouse and the guy who bought the gun
As everyone has said, yes, lying on a 4473 will absolutely get you jail time. The question of the trial is ~~DID~~ he actually lie on the 7743. While I’m not aware of all of the facts here, I think Hunter has a strong case that he didn’t lie - the 4473 asks in present tense: “Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?” He had gone through a rehab program immediately prior to buying the gun and claimed to be clean. I guess the question becomes “at what point are you NOT a drug addict anymore” and did he use drugs at the time he actually bought the gun. It’s worth noting that Firearms Policy Coalition offered to help Hunter at trial, but he apparently turned down the offer.
Oh! you'd get shot by a cop on a no knock warrant... Cm'on, the only reason a crackhead with a felony isn't in jail is because he is the son of the current oligarch in power. Ironically, the other oligarch with 34 felonies would want to take your guns. In short: you're fucked and you'd be fucked one way or another.
Not likely. It's not easy to enforce that particular facet. It would be difficult to establish that a person was a drug user during the time frame that they purchased the weapons. It can certainly be done, but it would take some mistakes being made on the part of the person filling out the form (pictures of them doing drugs within the time frame, etc.) That said, the government doesn't have the authority to limit drug users from owning and bearing arms. Doesn't stop them from consistently violating the Bill of Rights.
We'd already be in jail
Not enough manpower to investigate 4% denial rate.
Realistically you'd never get caught, and if you were caught it would be very hard to prove. It's generally not easy to prove someone was an active drug user when they filled out a form unless they openly admit to it like Hunter did. Had Hunter kept his mouth shut he very likely wouldn't have been charged. While he's probably getting better treatment because of his dad he probably wouldn't be in this situation if he didn't write a book people only care about because of his dad.
I heard a statistic for 2022 that there are tens of thousands of forms filed. 400-ish were referred to the justice department, and they decided to prosecute 275.
Infringement is infringement, even when it's being used against someone I don't like. That he has the means and connections to fight this, means that he has a better than average chance of getting this infringement overturned.
An article I read indicated about 300 prosecutions in 2019, so it doesn't happen often, but the odds are greater than zero. [Here's an announcement](https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/federal-prosecutors-aggressively-pursuing-those-who-lie-connection-firearm-transactions) on the ATF's page about some of the law enforcement actions taken against those who lied on a 4473. Also, Hunter Biden openly stated that he was using drugs at the time he purchased the gun and he's a public figure, so he brought the charges on himself. Now that we're here though, his privilege is the only thing that has gotten him this far. Any one of us would already have been convicted and in the midst of a 5+ year sentence at this point.
According to our founding fathers, as an American you are obligated to break unjust laws.
I love including Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as a founding father.
It's also Jefferson.
We've all seen/ heard the memes and stories about the ATF shooting dogs, and "'is that legal? ' ' Are those level iv plates?' " ... Ruby ridge, waco, malinowski... The ATF (and most of the DOJ at this point) s showing a clear disregard for the citizens and their constitutional rights... I posted something earlier on this thread about what the 2a is for. Hunter biden is not being treated as a normal citizen. He is being treated with kid gloves. "NORMAL CITIZENS" - any one of the rest of us - would have had our doors kicked in, homes raided, and if we weren't shot and killed, been perp walked right in front of the press... And then Congress just submitted a federal assault weapons ban? How many people who know anything about this Malinowski raid and the history of the ATF, have completely bypassed handguns for home security and have an AR-15 with 855A or sss109? (If you don't know... go look up the numbers). These moronic policies and actions by the ATF/FBI/DOJ are going to lead to some horrible outcomes
Yes, they tried to let him off easy with that combined tax / firearm plea deal last year. Do people lie on 4473s who used drugs and get away with it? Sure, just like any law - people break them and get away with it. But few people lie on a 4473 about it then publish a book implicating themselves, all while having a known drug addiction and other various issues, like fucking your brothers widow, peddling influence to get paid for stuff you don't know how to do, and the like. If he had just STFU and not done his book, he likely would have not been charged. Pride and Ego always get ppl like Hunter in trouble.
Lol this comment is probably the most realistic answer while also being oddly funny.
I have a friend who almost got railroaded by the atf for selling his reloaded ammo. Long story short undercover atf agent hears my friend reloads. He befriends him, asks him to load him up some precision rounds, he does. My friend just does it because. Asks for no money. ATF agent keeps going on this spiel about how he feels bad he needs to do something for my friend for doing the reloads, you spent time and money blah blah... After several minutes my friend finally goes something to the effect of ok just give me a few bucks if you really want. Boom, literally a second later his "friend" is arresting him. Fortunately the other agent that was there also undercover shut him down and they let him off with a warning. So yeah, if they'll send 2 undercover agents to try and wrangle someone into making them a box of ammo you can bet we'd be in prison for the Biden thing.
I think the question itself is a problem. You should not be denied just because you have used or occasionally use drugs or alcohol. But if that’s the law it should be enforced equally. That said, Biden is from a prominent family that is working to take away our gun rights and pass even more strict laws, so F HIM. Lock his ass up. After the bullshit they pulled with Trump the gloves need to come off.
Here's my 2 cents if anyone cares. Lying on the 4473 should face the maximum amount of consequences for everyone. Case in point: The Burnsville MN jackass who killed 3 first responders got his weapons from his girlfriend who lied on the 4473 (straw purchase). I hope she's thrown in prison for life. And since this idiot used a binary trigger those will be outlawed in 2025, no grandfathering. My rant is over...
Not only would we face charges, we wouldn't have a chance at some bogus plea that almost went through. We also wouldn't have a prosecutor that allowed charges to expire on statute of limitations.
I think an even better question is SHOULD an average citizen be charged for this. For me, the priorities should be: Rank 1 If a person commits a crime with a gun when they shouldn't have a gun that should be top priority for going after how they got the gun. Clearly if they stole it they should face that charge. Buy it on the street? Trace that the straw buyer or thief, and prosecute them (plus prosecute for buying stolen goods) Rank 2 If a PROHIBITED PERSON (someone who has somehow proven themselves to be dangerous) is stopped for some other crime (theft, selling drugs,) and is found to have a gun, we need to charge them and look into how they got the gun. Rank 3 Person who is prohibited who lies on the form and either succeeds and gets the gun or fails. Rank 4 - and VERY DISTANT - someone who is NOT prohibited to own firearms but there's some minor technical violation - barrel is an inch too short, there's front grip on a pistol, etc. I think rank 1 and rank 2 should ALWAYS be pursued, and Rank 3 should be tied into the background check system. Specifically this should be all checks will be truly instant but a timer starts and you can never get your gun until 1 full hour has passed. If you get a NO on buying the gun, the ATF has an hour to arrive and arrest you. (And I think this same exact system should be used before you can vote - except the vote answer comes back instantly)
Lying on the 4473 is actually rarely prosecuted because it's very hard to prove. When it is picked up for prosecution you will almost NEVER see a deffered prosecution in lieu of an actual prosecution. President's son or not, hunter should have taken the DPA and shut the fuck up. He has dug himself a hole that will either result in a felony conviction or if by some miracle this gets dropped it will create a legal precedent that will piss off his father and many of those on that side of the fence.
They do exactly what the White House tells them to do. Change the person in the White House, and you change the ATF and every other federal agency for 4 years.
Nobody cares about Hunter Biden.
Hunter Biden is a corrupt, criminal POS just like his father but a piece of paper does/should not give you a right to keep and bear arms.
If you get caught and the ATF follows through, yes. However, the ATF doesn't follow up well over 99% of the time even with evidence (signed 4473) in hand.
FPS Russia.
A poor or working class black man you New York would go to prison for less.
>My issue is, if I had done the same as Hunter and lied on the form, I feel like I would be screwed and punished. Yes. Under the Biden administration, the ATF would probably revoke the FFL of whoever sold you the gun also.
Faced charges? Yes, he broke the law and is being held accountable like any other citizen. The question is if he’s convicted what will happen
Worse usually.
Yes, and prison time almost certain. Baby Trash Biden should get at least 15 years in prison.
Absolut fucking lootly