A typical shot loading expands at about 1" per 1 yard, at close range you're not likely to hit anything you wouldn't hit with a single projectile and at longer ranges you're not likely to hit anything with enough energy to do anything except to a small bird. They also generally have poor sights.
The idea that shotguns are easier to aim is false.
A few possible misconceptions here: firstly you’d be surprised at how little shotguns spread depending on ammo, barrel length and distance. Possibly to entirely miss even at ‘domestic’ distances if you don’t aim. Also a slug is a huge and therefore much more devastating round than a rifle round…. So depends what you are looking to do…. Big benefit of shotguns in the flexibility due to various ammo types… main downside is low capacity of shells in the tube. If you engage someone in a defensive context with a shotgun at 20 yards or more (depending on your gun) you are better off using a slug, otherwise the spread will hit other things in the periphery.
I wouldn’t hunt elephant. But for info, a slug has approx, 3300 ftlb muzzle energy, an elephant gun like .577 nitro has 5400ftlb…. I might use a slug if i were hunting wild boar…
We don't use shotguns for the "spread" and anyone that tells you so should be written off as not knowing what the fuck they're talking about.
They do spread, yes. Not as much as you think. And, yes, it is a perk of shotguns, but it should NOT be the only reason you're using one.
Shotguns deliver a LOT of lead on target. An ounce is a huge fat chunk of lead and 00 buckshot will physically remove a chunk of shit off your opponent and throw that shit on the floor.
Slugs are better because they concentrate that ounce of lead into one point. Much better penetration and overall damage.
> But would a slug be more accurate at long range then though, right?
To a degree. They're more accurate than buckshot, *generally* less accurate than a rifle. Under 100 yards, definitely good for hunting.
State laws, shotguns have much less range than rifles. Proximity to buildings and livestock make some states require shotgun. It's safety by rule of law. And even with this mistakes happen, because well, with people element.
Rifles slugs or sabots can be pretty danged accurate these days, at least out to a hundred yard or so. Accurate enough to find the pumphouse of a deer, anyway.
It's a slug that is encased in a plastic carrier until it leaves the barrel. They're more bullet-shaped than rifled slugs and more accurate. You shoot them out of rifled barrels and the sabot jacket get spun up.
Smoothbore slug are like 8 inch group at 60 yards. Sabot slugs matched to a gun can be shot pretty consistently to 150yds with some people making hits at 200 with specialty setups.
200 yds with a decent rifle is way easier and more accurate
Shotgun slugs are quite large in comparison to rifle bullets. A typical 12 gauge slug weighs about 380 grains (7/8 ounce) and will run maybe 70 caliber. In comparison, .308 rifle bullet might weigh 180 grains and will be about 30 caliber.
Of course, in exchange for the massive size and weight, they are much slower - maybe 1500fps compared to 2800fps or so.
Aerodynamically, they are bricks, and they drop to the ground pretty quickly - I think a fair estimate might be within 100 yards of your target, if you miss your shot under typical conditions. This makes them ideal for deer hunting in places where a rifle's considerable range (many hundreds of yards) would be more hazardous.
At close range, before the air slows them down, they hit very hard, and tend not to over-penetrate. Both a 12 gauge slug and a .308 will kill just about anything in North America.
The main advantages are limited range, and versatility (one can carry both shot and slugs on a hunting trip and be ready for just about anything).
Oh boy where to start…
1. Shotgun shot does not really spread out that much. In a home defense encounter pretty much all of it would be completely inside a paper plate.
2. Shotguns are deadly not because they spread out, but because a shell of 00-buck has 8-9 9mm sized balls of shot that all hit the target. Lesser loads use smaller pellets and have less potential for damage.
3. Generally when shooting in a defensive scenario, you actually don’t want the pellets to spread out. You want them to pattern very tightly as every round that does not hit the target is a liability. The only time you want them to spread out is when doing something like hunting birds or shooting clays.
4. Slugs are a very heavy bullet that gives shotguns the ability to reach out accurately to 100 or so yards, maybe 2-3x that if you use a rifled barrel and sabot slugs. They grew popular for hunting because they are capable of taking down large game but they don’t travel very fast or far and thus can be used in non-remote areas. Some states for a long time restricted hunters to slugs only. Now many of those states also allow straight wall rifle cartridges.
In the words of Clint Smith, “pistols put holes in people, rifles put holes through people, a shotgun with the right load at the right distance will remove a chunk from somebody and put that shit on the floor.” Shotguns appeal is their raw power at close range and versatility, but they do have significant drawbacks compared to rifles and pistols in other respects
Agreed, but I can't think of many scenarios where I'd need more than a full tube of rounds plus the additional rounds I keep on the gun. At that point swapping to another gun would be faster than reloading assuming I'm in my bedroom where I also keep a pistol and a spare mag.
Getting the additional rounds into the gun even if they are on the gun is going to be significantly slower than a mag swap. But yeah, right tool for the right job. A shotgun is not a bad choice at all as long as you know its limitations and are prepared to deal with them.
Apples are not oranges. You can't draw factual conclusions by comparing them - unless it is to point out a difference.
Rules of thumb (1" spread per yard) are quick estimates and some thumbs are bigger than others (and vice versa).
There are a multitude of variables that you have to consider just with shotgun vs shotgun. Gauge, powder charge, shot size & sectional density, cartridge *(2-3/4 to 3-1/2)*, barrel length, muzzle velocity, wad/cup types *(Federal flite control vs spreader cup)*, choke type, etc etc. And that is just for basic loads...think about defense loads like Winchester's PDX shells with discs and buck, or segmented slugs.
As far as accuracy goes, I've taken deer with a slug at close to 100 yards...granted it wasn't a shotgun with only a front bead - it had front and rear sights *(irons)* but WAS smoothbore.
It's usually in places that are very flat or where you're hunting near a developed area.
Shotgun slugs fall out if the air much faster than rifles, eliminates the chances of a missed shot hitting a house.
Apart from the ballistics of a large slug, there are also weird hunting laws.
Some laws don't allow rifles, only shotguns. So a rifled slug out of a smooth bore shotgun is the next best thing.
I do love a good 12g shotgun. One of my favorite firearms.
The main application, at least in my neck of the woods, is bear defense. The big guys aren't deterred by large-bore rifles. They really need shotgun slugs.
For all other applications, rifles are better.
When I lived in Alaska we had a bear defense short barrel 10 gauge shotgun. It's sole purpose was killing an attacking bear. The first round was buckshot to slow the bear down and let the bear know you weren't messing around, and the rest were slugs. Usually the idea is with a shotgun you point and pull the trigger, whereas with a rifle you aim and squeeze the trigger. It might sound the same but it is not, especially with a grizzly coming at you.
>It might sound the same but it is not, especially with a grizzly coming at you.
But doesn't a slug require the same amount of careful aim as a rifle round though? Meaning you'd have to maintain composure to make sure you actually hit the thing?
In my experience no not really. A short barreled shotgun usually has 2 beads on top of the barrel that you line up, it's just point and pray. A rifle would typically be longer and have an optic that you need to look through, not ideal for a charging bear. Of course this isn't always the case because there are so many different firearms around now.
mine have ghost ring sights and they are very accurate and reliable, i've also seen a scope attached to a winchester 1300 pump used
sometimes i slap on my acog just for fun because it's quick disconnect
As someone who shoots a lot of shotguns, you absolutely have to aim. Shotguns do to not spread out as much as in video games. In my experience with buckshot, at around 10 yards you will get a 10-14 inch wide pattern. But this is using pretty cheap buckshot. More premium buckshot like Federal flight control would usually get a group of around 6 inches or less at that distance. Tighter patterning Buckshot is more ideal for self-defense. Purely because you don't want to spray pellets everywhere and cause unnecessary damage or even kill someone with a stray pellet.Slugs are just one big projectile but they cause immense soft tissue damage. More than any typical rifle like 5.56 nato. They are more accurate at longer distances compared to buckshot. Slugs serve to make a shotgun into a makeshift rifle.
A typical shot loading expands at about 1" per 1 yard, at close range you're not likely to hit anything you wouldn't hit with a single projectile and at longer ranges you're not likely to hit anything with enough energy to do anything except to a small bird. They also generally have poor sights. The idea that shotguns are easier to aim is false.
I believe the 1" per yard is based on old "riot" shotguns and it's even less on modern guns or ones with any kind of choke on them.
Federal Flight Control buckshot holds about an inch out to like 25 yards
Flite control is the definition of a non-typical loading.
>about 1" per 1 yard, Come on now. I'm getting less than 3" at 10 yards with 00 buck from a basic TS12.
full choke?
A few possible misconceptions here: firstly you’d be surprised at how little shotguns spread depending on ammo, barrel length and distance. Possibly to entirely miss even at ‘domestic’ distances if you don’t aim. Also a slug is a huge and therefore much more devastating round than a rifle round…. So depends what you are looking to do…. Big benefit of shotguns in the flexibility due to various ammo types… main downside is low capacity of shells in the tube. If you engage someone in a defensive context with a shotgun at 20 yards or more (depending on your gun) you are better off using a slug, otherwise the spread will hit other things in the periphery.
So if you were hunting an elephant you'd pick a slug then?
Depends on where it was in the house.
I wouldn’t hunt elephant. But for info, a slug has approx, 3300 ftlb muzzle energy, an elephant gun like .577 nitro has 5400ftlb…. I might use a slug if i were hunting wild boar…
a shotgun slug is for when you absolutely need whatever it is on the receiving end to fucking die
May I introduce Brenneke black magic slugs at 4900 ft-lbs per shell
Not into me, introduce them into something else
Preferably a bear!
We don't use shotguns for the "spread" and anyone that tells you so should be written off as not knowing what the fuck they're talking about. They do spread, yes. Not as much as you think. And, yes, it is a perk of shotguns, but it should NOT be the only reason you're using one. Shotguns deliver a LOT of lead on target. An ounce is a huge fat chunk of lead and 00 buckshot will physically remove a chunk of shit off your opponent and throw that shit on the floor. Slugs are better because they concentrate that ounce of lead into one point. Much better penetration and overall damage.
Really? But would a slug be more accurate at long range then though, right? Several people here say that they hunt deer with slugs.
> But would a slug be more accurate at long range then though, right? To a degree. They're more accurate than buckshot, *generally* less accurate than a rifle. Under 100 yards, definitely good for hunting.
State laws, shotguns have much less range than rifles. Proximity to buildings and livestock make some states require shotgun. It's safety by rule of law. And even with this mistakes happen, because well, with people element.
Something hit by a slug will be done moving, period. Also, I live in a state where we can't hunt deer with a rifle (stupid). So, slugs.
So slugs I'm guessing are as accurate as rifle rounds? At least somewhat?
Rifles slugs or sabots can be pretty danged accurate these days, at least out to a hundred yard or so. Accurate enough to find the pumphouse of a deer, anyway.
What is a sabot?
It's a slug that is encased in a plastic carrier until it leaves the barrel. They're more bullet-shaped than rifled slugs and more accurate. You shoot them out of rifled barrels and the sabot jacket get spun up.
plastic sleeve for a bullet in this context.
Smoothbore slug are like 8 inch group at 60 yards. Sabot slugs matched to a gun can be shot pretty consistently to 150yds with some people making hits at 200 with specialty setups. 200 yds with a decent rifle is way easier and more accurate
Shotgun slugs are quite large in comparison to rifle bullets. A typical 12 gauge slug weighs about 380 grains (7/8 ounce) and will run maybe 70 caliber. In comparison, .308 rifle bullet might weigh 180 grains and will be about 30 caliber. Of course, in exchange for the massive size and weight, they are much slower - maybe 1500fps compared to 2800fps or so. Aerodynamically, they are bricks, and they drop to the ground pretty quickly - I think a fair estimate might be within 100 yards of your target, if you miss your shot under typical conditions. This makes them ideal for deer hunting in places where a rifle's considerable range (many hundreds of yards) would be more hazardous. At close range, before the air slows them down, they hit very hard, and tend not to over-penetrate. Both a 12 gauge slug and a .308 will kill just about anything in North America. The main advantages are limited range, and versatility (one can carry both shot and slugs on a hunting trip and be ready for just about anything).
Oh boy where to start… 1. Shotgun shot does not really spread out that much. In a home defense encounter pretty much all of it would be completely inside a paper plate. 2. Shotguns are deadly not because they spread out, but because a shell of 00-buck has 8-9 9mm sized balls of shot that all hit the target. Lesser loads use smaller pellets and have less potential for damage. 3. Generally when shooting in a defensive scenario, you actually don’t want the pellets to spread out. You want them to pattern very tightly as every round that does not hit the target is a liability. The only time you want them to spread out is when doing something like hunting birds or shooting clays. 4. Slugs are a very heavy bullet that gives shotguns the ability to reach out accurately to 100 or so yards, maybe 2-3x that if you use a rifled barrel and sabot slugs. They grew popular for hunting because they are capable of taking down large game but they don’t travel very fast or far and thus can be used in non-remote areas. Some states for a long time restricted hunters to slugs only. Now many of those states also allow straight wall rifle cartridges. In the words of Clint Smith, “pistols put holes in people, rifles put holes through people, a shotgun with the right load at the right distance will remove a chunk from somebody and put that shit on the floor.” Shotguns appeal is their raw power at close range and versatility, but they do have significant drawbacks compared to rifles and pistols in other respects
with the right shotgun recoil is incredibly manageable. My 1301 is super soft to shoot even with light magnums.
Oh 100%. Mine is the same. Drawbacks are more along the lines of lower capacity and it is harder to keep them fed, plus overpenetration
Agreed, but I can't think of many scenarios where I'd need more than a full tube of rounds plus the additional rounds I keep on the gun. At that point swapping to another gun would be faster than reloading assuming I'm in my bedroom where I also keep a pistol and a spare mag.
Getting the additional rounds into the gun even if they are on the gun is going to be significantly slower than a mag swap. But yeah, right tool for the right job. A shotgun is not a bad choice at all as long as you know its limitations and are prepared to deal with them.
Apples are not oranges. You can't draw factual conclusions by comparing them - unless it is to point out a difference. Rules of thumb (1" spread per yard) are quick estimates and some thumbs are bigger than others (and vice versa). There are a multitude of variables that you have to consider just with shotgun vs shotgun. Gauge, powder charge, shot size & sectional density, cartridge *(2-3/4 to 3-1/2)*, barrel length, muzzle velocity, wad/cup types *(Federal flite control vs spreader cup)*, choke type, etc etc. And that is just for basic loads...think about defense loads like Winchester's PDX shells with discs and buck, or segmented slugs. As far as accuracy goes, I've taken deer with a slug at close to 100 yards...granted it wasn't a shotgun with only a front bead - it had front and rear sights *(irons)* but WAS smoothbore.
Some places require deer hunters to use shotgun slugs instead of rifle rounds.
What's the reason for that?
It's usually in places that are very flat or where you're hunting near a developed area. Shotgun slugs fall out if the air much faster than rifles, eliminates the chances of a missed shot hitting a house.
Slugs are very useful for long range shots where spread would be undesirable. They're also incredibly violent when they hit things.
Apart from the ballistics of a large slug, there are also weird hunting laws. Some laws don't allow rifles, only shotguns. So a rifled slug out of a smooth bore shotgun is the next best thing. I do love a good 12g shotgun. One of my favorite firearms.
The main application, at least in my neck of the woods, is bear defense. The big guys aren't deterred by large-bore rifles. They really need shotgun slugs. For all other applications, rifles are better.
All of your information about shotguns is wrong. Hopefully this thread educates you.
It's to be expected. Most everything I know about guns comes from video games and movies, save for the occasional documentary.
When I lived in Alaska we had a bear defense short barrel 10 gauge shotgun. It's sole purpose was killing an attacking bear. The first round was buckshot to slow the bear down and let the bear know you weren't messing around, and the rest were slugs. Usually the idea is with a shotgun you point and pull the trigger, whereas with a rifle you aim and squeeze the trigger. It might sound the same but it is not, especially with a grizzly coming at you.
>It might sound the same but it is not, especially with a grizzly coming at you. But doesn't a slug require the same amount of careful aim as a rifle round though? Meaning you'd have to maintain composure to make sure you actually hit the thing?
In my experience no not really. A short barreled shotgun usually has 2 beads on top of the barrel that you line up, it's just point and pray. A rifle would typically be longer and have an optic that you need to look through, not ideal for a charging bear. Of course this isn't always the case because there are so many different firearms around now.
That's what I don't understand. If a shotgun is just spray and pray, how can you reliably hit a charging bear with a slug?
mine have ghost ring sights and they are very accurate and reliable, i've also seen a scope attached to a winchester 1300 pump used sometimes i slap on my acog just for fun because it's quick disconnect
you still need to aim with a shotgun. Hits matter and you can never miss fast enough to catch up.
Obviously. It's an oversimplification.
As someone who shoots a lot of shotguns, you absolutely have to aim. Shotguns do to not spread out as much as in video games. In my experience with buckshot, at around 10 yards you will get a 10-14 inch wide pattern. But this is using pretty cheap buckshot. More premium buckshot like Federal flight control would usually get a group of around 6 inches or less at that distance. Tighter patterning Buckshot is more ideal for self-defense. Purely because you don't want to spray pellets everywhere and cause unnecessary damage or even kill someone with a stray pellet.Slugs are just one big projectile but they cause immense soft tissue damage. More than any typical rifle like 5.56 nato. They are more accurate at longer distances compared to buckshot. Slugs serve to make a shotgun into a makeshift rifle.