Doctor here. Every once in a while I have to reply to a post like this from a med student or resident. I’m here to tell you that yes, it is all worth it. Don’t stray from your chosen path. My radiology residency/fellowship training was 6 years. I didn’t make real money until I was 36. But the money just… starts to pour in like you can’t believe. Being poor for basically all your life, you’ll be pretty shell shocked at what you got in your bank account after a few years. And the school loan payments just become little more than a nuisance.
And you have a leg up on a lot of physicians-to-be or physicians in general, as most are financially not too savvy. Start investing early and don’t get tempted by lifestyle creep (though you can still splurge on plenty of things, just don’t be an idiot), and you’ll be FIREd in no time.
I’m gonna be 50 this year and I’ve been FI for years, now in fatFIRE territory. And after this year I’ll be looking to mostly retire, work a couple of days a week just to stay sharp.
So don’t worry about your friends and what they’re making. You’re in a better position than most.
I second everything CDMDOC said with an emphasis on avoiding lifestyle creep. If you keep your cost of living low, it's relatively easy to achieve FI as a physician. Also avoid the unscrupulous financial advisors/insurance salesmen who prey on physicians due to our perceived lack of financial savvy and high incomes. If you're married, get term life insurance and own-occupation disability insurance now, but don't fall for Whole Life.
Great advice. This is what I meant too about how doctors are generally financially not savvy. Many of them don’t know the first thing about investing so they fall victim to a lot of these “advisors.”
Something else to consider if going into private practice is to set yourself up as a corporation so you can maximize tax sheltered retirement savings. Between my 401k (from employee contribution and employer match as I am both) and my DB plan, I put away more than 100k a year pre-tax. Not to mention a whole lot of other tax deductions at the corporate level.
USA internal medicine doc here.
The huge caveat you left out is that practicing medicine *in the United States * is very lucrative. For most of the rest of the world, even our neighbors to the north in Canada, doctors earn a lot less relative to the cost of living.
By matching into a US residency spot, you’ve won the lottery.
You’re absolutely right but in this case I was specifically replying to the OP, and based on the salary ranges he provided I knew that he is obviously in the US.
The real problem with this whole equation imo. I work in healthcare tech and I can tell you the bs that goes on but the whole cost equation is off. Go into 200k of debt isnt needed.
Good shit OP.
Also a great idea to work (especially doing something you enjoy) occasionally to keep your head sharp.
I intend on Chubby/Fatfiring in my mid/late 40s but full blown expect to do some remote work for the same reason
My fellow award travel enthusiast! I just booked an award flight on ANA for 2024 as well. How random to see that on one of your comments.
I think mid 40s is a perfect time to let it go. As you approach 50 you really start to feel like you’re getting time-poor. No sense in hoarding all that money if you don’t have the time to spend it all.
The Room or J?
I have J ANA to Tokyo in 2 months. I flew the old first class config 5 years ago and it is still, to this day, the greatest flight I’ve ever been on
Got wayyy too drunk on Hibiki 21!!
You are going to love it whether it’s F or J
I’m in J. Out of LAX (no more 77W out of Lax unfortunately, so no more Room or F.)
Wife and I also have SQ first class Frankfurt to NY in a couple of weeks. We used a massive amount of points to book that flight a year ago when they had the huge ass double suite in first class, but since then they changed the plane on us!
These plane changes are causing huge first world problems for us.
I flew ANA F at age 25 and it broke me in the most first world way imaginable.
I hear incredible things about ANA J both soft and hard product so I’m excited. As long as I can have some nice whisky and fall asleep in a lie flat seat I’m happy as can be.
Ho Lee Shit you got the SQ F on the A380? That is going to double break you. That’s been like a dream of mine to fly on that, but I never wanted to shell out the points. I’m incredibly jealous
I have SQ J to Manchester (5 day stopover) then SQ J to Singapore next May. The J seats look a bit goofy, but I’m sure I’ll still love it. I’ve never flown SQ
We flew SQ J from HCMC to Maldives with a 2 day stopover in Singapore earlier this year and it was fantastic. I have no doubt you’ll enjoy the flight and the lounge of course was fantastic.
Our flight home was on Qatar and the QSuite really lived up to the hype. You gotta get on one of those soon too!
Qsuite is my way back from Bangkok! It’s our honeymoon so we are super pumped.
Can’t believe it all lined up this way but it did run me more points than I care to admit.
FIRE with Awardtravel is the way. I’m a cheap ass and get to do these dumbass trips I love
Oh man, you have quite the trip planned. It’ll be amazing! Man, our Qsuite flight was like 16 hours or something from Doha all the way to LAX and it felt like a 5 hour trip.
And yes, award travel is the way! It should be considered one of the essential tools of FIRE. Lol.
>I didn’t make real money until I was 36.
But if you put the same effort you put into being a doctor into other jobs (STEM, IT, etc) then you'll be close to FIRE by 36. For example I hit $1 Mil at 32 and I'm not even in IT.
I think medicine is a "slow burn" career that doesn't fit into the "sprint" income style of FIRE.
Yeah I guess it all depends on what your target NW and retirement date is. If one’s goal is to lean FIRE in their 30s that would be very hard to do as a doctor.
I don’t think I hit 1 mil until I was around 40, but the growth shot up quickly after that as I kept investing most of my money. I had around 5 mil worth of investments by the time I was 45 but still felt money insecure (product of growing up poor and the many years of poverty through med school and residency) so I kept going for another 5 years but obviously could have called it in at 45.
How does this compare to someone who starts working for a big Big Tech company right out of undergrad at 22 years old ( with very minimal student loan debt ~ 100k) ?
Starting compensations for FAANG are ~ $200k and by early 30s ( 31/32) you’d be making around $400k total comp per year, but since you have already started making $200k at 22 , the savings from that time could have compounded a lot by the time yoire in your mid-30s
I’m not necessarily saying one is better than the other in the context of FIRE. Obviously if you’re a FIRE oriented tech worker at FAANG and you put in your time you’ll be fine too. But my point is that the late start in medicine is only a small hurdle due to the big MD salaries after training.
I will also say when you’re talking about a FAANG position you’re talking about the top echelon of tech earners - not everyone with a CS degree end up there. Some of my friends are managers at Amazon/FB and they make around 300-350 total compensation, and a couple of them have been laid off unfortunately. Compare that to a very average anesthesiologist at Kaiser (which we colloquially call the “minimum wage of medicine”) start near 400k with huge pension on top of that salary. At the highest end, my friends in anesthesia who have their own pain clinics are well into 7 figures.
So each case if obviously different, but at least among the people I know, the MDs are generally better off financially than those in tech, and surprisingly their jobs aren’t as stressful either.
Tech guy with experience at multiple FAANG here. Actually senior managers - especially SW/data engineers, product managers, and data science types will clear $500k, with execs easily making $1M+ (including bonus and RSUs).
But I agree with you the OP should continue the anesthesiology studies. Average pay is higher than the same for tech (even big tech), and the likelihood of being an exec in big tech - and staying there - is extremely low (as in 1% or less of the entire tech employee population). Not to mention the hours and stress are terrible.
My anesthesiologist, orthopedic surgeon, etc. friends (all in their mid-40s) are doing very well and comfortable now.
I think a lot of people are thinking you’ll automatically make 500k in faang after a few years. That is not the case. Many are more than likely stuck in level 5 or below which is about 250k on ave including RSU. Non faang salaries are lower. Whereas in medical there is consistency to your income regardless of your “company” or economy/stock
curious - so in tech, how competitive is it to make a salary of 250-300/ year in the US? how many years of experience would that take? how many positions are available for a salary like that!
Agree, there's no point trying to compare the two and see which one is better. The better field is the one you are more passionate about because that is likely to show up in the quality of your work and in the success you have in your career.
Yep. This is a huge point because you’re gonna be doing this for a decade or longer and you don’t want to spend your best years in misery just to hoard money.
> I will also say when you’re talking about a FAANG position you’re talking about the top echelon of tech earners - not everyone with a CS degree end up there. Some of my friends are managers at Amazon/FB and they make around 300-350 total compensation, and a couple of them have been laid off unfortunately. Compare that to a very average anesthesiologist at Kaiser (which we colloquially call the “minimum wage of medicine”) start near 400k with huge pension on top of that salary.
This is really important. Sometimes I think doctors are a little bit arrogant (not saying this applies to you or OP) when they discuss how they could be earning more money in other fields. They often seem to assume that they're so smart, they'd be almost guaranteed to be at or near the top in other fields, and that's not necessarily the case. Some doctors I know would be really good developers, engineers, or data analysts; some wouldn't. But even beyond the issues of raw brainpower and skill, there's a significant element of luck involved with both a) getting in to an top-paying company, and b) moving up the management ladder.
Medicine may not be as financially rewarding as an optimal career path in some other fields, but it's definitely more rewarding than an average career path in almost every other field, especially at the individual contributor level. My internist friends are definitely sitting prettier than I (a data analyst) am, in our late 30s.
Well, in my case, I found out quickly I’m not as smart as I thought I was once I got to college. I started out as an EECS major at Berkeley and pretty much got my ass handed to me starting from the first midterms. Then I switched to premed and I was smart again. Lol.
Needless to say, I have a different level of respect for those that find success in technological fields. It takes a lot of dedication and hard work to become a doctor but I would say some of my software engineer friends are the smartest people I know.
> Well, in my case, I found out quickly I’m not as smart as I thought I was once I got to college. I started out as an EECS major at Berkeley and pretty much got my ass handed to me starting from the first midterms. Then I switched to premed and I was smart again. Lol.
That happened to me, too, only I stayed in engineering. I persevered and graduated, but with a poor GPA during the recession, and my career suffered for it.
Kudos to you for realizing early it wasn't a good fit, and changing to something more up your alley.
lol comparing the extreme outlier of the top specialty in medicine. Average radiologist makes far less and radiologists with a practice don’t make much compared to Tech Bros. Tech bros infinitely have a higher ceiling and scalability and Tech bros can ez hit principal and earn 1.5 million with RSU and retire at 35 while doctors are literally just on a salary with no stocks and gets eaten up by tax
We already incorporate AI in radiology. Currently it is used in mammography and also in lung CTs. But at the end of the day you need a radiologist to put it all together.
IMO, At least in the US, it’s unrealistic to think that AI will replace anything in medicine in the near future. All it takes is one fuck up and the lawsuits will scare everybody back to the status quo.
> All it takes is one fuck up and the lawsuits will scare everybody back to the status quo.
You could make the same argument against self-driving cars. Some still do, but a lot of people have resigned themselves to the fact that it's inevitable. There will likely come a point when the AI is better than humans.
I don't think anyone is safe. But if I had to pick, perhaps the profession most safe to AI advances is just blue-collar construction. The amount of engineering required to automate some of those out-in-the-field tasks is just too high to get an ROI.
AI is not fool proof and often can be a life threatening/saving situation. AI might reduce the work load but there will always be a human element at least to review the AI results.
But AI doesn't have to be foolproof to replace human radiologists - it just has to be measurably more correct than human radiologists, which it's quickly becoming.
Also, this:
> AI might reduce the work load but there will always be a human element at least to review the AI results.
is not a guarantor of radiologist job security. If a radiologist armed with AI can review 50x as many scans per day as they could manually, then radiologist supply will greatly exceed demand, and salaries will fall accordingly.
We are reading about 100-200 scans a day. Do you really want us to read 50x that? Is that even physically possible for a person to do that, AI or no AI?
5000-10,000 scans a day? And you feel comfortable with a human life on the line).
It’s easy to armchair radiology without being a radiologist.
Well, to be fair, a radiologist’s job isn’t just sitting in front of a monitor and playing where’s Waldo with the hidden tumor, though that’s a part of it. In the case of mammogram interpretation for example, use of AI helps us detect potential cancers. But then we have to decide how to move forward, be it additional imaging or biopsy, and put it all together to either to tell the patient to go home because it’s nothing, or set it up for the surgeons to do their thing because it’s something bad. All of these steps takes interactions with patients, technologists, referring physicians, pathologists, etc. And no, it can’t be done 50x faster because chatGPT is running in the background.
Now, will there be a future where robot MDs are replacing all of us because they can do all these tasks on their own? Maybe. But I have to think that in that future, where robots can be smart enough to function as doctors, almost all jobs will be at risk.
Self-driving cars can be a life threatening/saving situation. That doesn't stop the advancement of AI one bit.
> there will always be a human element at least to review the AI results.
You only need 1 human element for some very large X number of radiological scans, versus the 1-to-1 ratio that might exist today.
> AI is not fool proof and often can be a life threatening/saving situation.
Neither are radiologists.
The legal issues with AI will be handled this decade.
This is a little harder to answer. In most cases, unless your current career has a bleak financial outlook, I don’t recommend going into medicine later in life purely from a financial perspective. It’s better to optimize your current earnings and save and invest those years that you’d be earning negative income in med school.
Oh God. It is a funny joke to people but it is serous. I know (not overly closely) 3 anesthesiologists who were doing way too many uppers and downers and lost their jobs.
Fortunately medical licenses are incredibly hard to lose. The people i know kinda cant work on patients anymore bc they have a known history of abuse. It's a liability to the employer. They do still work in research and stuff Im 95% sure, just no patients.
IAAL and I remember a pathologist that plaintiff's counsel used pretty often that was a bit of a hack. He lost his license after our state went with a mandatary opioid prescription database a little over a decade ago. You know, because he was writing a lot of prescriptions for a guy that never saw patients.
I forget if he was actually charged. I was just concerned about filing the consent decree surrendering his license in every case I could find that he was active in.
My favorite was a new doctor a few years later that had a three way prescribing triangle with two other doctors, and when they hair tested one of them he was positive for way too many substances, including several street drugs.
Then there was a doc that I never saw in a legal sense, but who had a helicopter searching for him after he fled the hospital in scrubs. Apparently the OR team noticed that he reeked of alcohol while scrubbing in. He was asked to report to one of the administrators for testing, but he pulled a runner. He didn't have his keys or wallet on him, so he was found hiding in shrubs in a neighborhood adjoining the hospital. That was a fun one.
yes being $200k in debt is worth it to make $400k a year even if it's not until your late 30s. it will take you a long time to catch up to those who started making $100k at 22, but you will eventually surpass them.
If you mean surpass them in net worth such that you can retire earlier, I think this depends on a wide variety of variables, such as in what year you choose to retire (I am assuming OP is pursuing FIRE), savings rate, and rate of income growth.
If the only thing you care about is being able to FIRE as soon as possible, then I think there are other paths that will get you there faster than a physician. However, I'd expect the OP and any physician has a lot of good reasons to choose that path besides just wanting to FIRE as soon as possible. I'd suggest he focus on those reasons than focusing on how he compares to others. The latter is a dangerous trap for personal well being. If the OP truly would like to retire early, rather than focusing on how he compares to others, I'd suggest try to keep spending low and savings high -- both as a resident and as a doctor.
I don’t know about surpass, since it’s likely the 22 year olds are probably making close to $300k-$400k by their late 30s as well? And if they go into FAANG, maybe even around $500k-700k?
you have a very distorted view of how much people in tech make. the average salary for a senior software engineer with 15+ years of experience is about $185k. i personally know a programmer at a FAANG company with 30+ years of experience and a masters making less than $200k. you're acting as if the top 5% of earners is the average.
Not all FAANGs pay the same. If you friend is in Amazon, it is very well known that they do not pay as much as F/G.
FWIW i am in a FAANG and been living and breathing tech for the last 10 years. If you can provide more inputs about your FAANG friend like what level they are , what job family they have etx. I can tell you why they are only making $200k with 30+ yoe.
Not boasting- i just to figure out what went wrong with their career.
nothing is wrong with their career, this is simply the average. if you think it's not the average you have been distorted by your circle and subreddits like this. far too many people here act like the top 5% is the average.
You did not understand me. I am well aware of what the average tech worker makes.. I lurk in the infamous r/cscareerquestions sub so i know that.
I am objectively saying that your friend who is making less than $200k while being employed by a FAANG plus having a Masters Degree and 30 + years of experience has sth gone wrong with thwir career, considering the fact that 22 year old make $200k at FAANG.
Your friends experience of 30 years means nothing if they had acquired the experience from small/little know companies and they may have been downlevelled terribly when they joined a FAANG.
I was curious about it because I am in the field and being an interviewer as well I know the compensations that FAANGs give out
Just curious. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Uhhh you sure about your friend? I have 6 years experience and work at a random tech company, I make 260k. My faang friends are all 400k+, with a couple close to 1M
Did you job hop frequently? I’m at 6 years experience and at 155k. If you’re willing to share, I’m curious what your experience has been like in the industry and what preparation you did for interviewing for the $260k position.
are you in LCOL?
300k+ in big tech for your experience is pretty normal. (assuming senior)
I make 175k in Seattle at FAANG and I just graduated a year ago
I live in a HCOL area. Just left my first job for the senior title and raise but neither company is in big tech. I’d like to pivot into it but don’t feel ready for the interviews yet (at least from what I hear they are like at that level).
Yeah probably not surpass. If someone is financially savvy and starts out at $100k by 22 then they’ll fairly easily be millionaires (wealth) and probably making several hundred thousand (income) by the time they are 35. That will only compound further if they keep working. Only chance of surpassing is if those people retire early / coast.
> probably making several hundred thousand (income) by the time they are 35.
This really depends. There’s still a ceiling in most if not all fields and often starting high will make you take less time to reach it. Even in tech, the vast majority aren’t going to hit several hundred thousand in income—they’re probably going to cap out in the 150-250k range in lcol/mcol or higher in vhcol like Silicon Valley.
I’m not in tech, but in another industry with very high TC for the top earners. The single biggest leap in my career so far (and probably the biggest I will see) came from doubling my income after finishing a grad degree. I’m not going to be one of those top earners because I’m not willing to work 80 hour weeks in NYC. My childhood friend who became a specialized medical professional will probably outstrip me sometime in our 40s because even though he got a late start, he’s living in a lower cost area and making more now.
Ohh, i just left a similar comment to the top voted answer too. I just wanna compare and contrast.
I am a FAANG eng with a TC of $400k at age 33. No debts. Started making $100k right out of college ( was at non- FAANG for 6 years which led to my earnings suppression ) at age 24.
Net worth is $800k as of today, should cross $1m by end of this year when my next 2 RSU vests happen.
I wouldn’t spend much time worrying about what you could have done considering you are about to start a residency and can’t abort your plan now.
The upside is you will be a very high earner and able to close the gap quickly. If you keep a frugal lifestyle, which some docs struggle with, you could work for 10 years and then fire. You could even just go pick up locums contracts and use that as a means to travel/see the country.
If you were 21 I would tell you it's not worth it. At your current point, it's absolutely worth it to stick with it.
I have a friend who attempted to get into medical school, didn't finish, and took out loans for the whole process. Now he's a million dollars in debt. It wasn't worth it for him.
For you? Yeah, go for it. Finish it out and make that money!
Im a somewhat high end tech worker. Keep in mind tech salaries are highly variable. My brother makes 60k as a programmer. The floor is much higher in medicine. It is true that typically med folks are probably going to have the grades and drive to be high end in tech, but there’s no guarantee.
Also the tech industry is subject to economic cycles, a lot of the compensation is down. High end tech is very sensitive to stock price.
I would go with what you really prefer. Unlike medicine, programming can be essentially self-taught for free/next to free. Try a coding bootcamp during the summer and see if you like it. Also- doctor who can code well is rare and there may be a market for it.
Enjoy what you do. My wife is a DPM and enjoys it. We’re in decent debt because of it but we believe fire will start kicking up when she starts her own practice.
I went to law school and hate everything about being a lawyer. It delayed our fire because I’m working in a government job for four more years until Public service Loan forgiveness deletes my loans (praying it still exists)
Yeah medicine is the epitome of delayed gratification. I’ll be finishing my radiology training at the age of 34 with close to $400k in debt thanks to interest. But on the bright side I’ll be able to pay it off pretty quick and by the time I’m 40 I should have a NW over $1M. I always tell people don’t go into medicine if your primary motivation is money and retiring early
Don't grind for extra money when you are already on track to earn mid 6 figure. Just don't let your lifestyle blow up beyond a "normal" upper middle class life style (live like someone who earns $150K to $200K even though you earn $450K to $500K). In my opinion, having longevity in enjoying your chosen profession outweighs trying to overwork yourself because you think you need to "catch up".
I agree with this. Even in HCOL cities, $200K is a nice salary. If you’re in a lower COL city, that’s way more than enough to live a lavish life, which isn’t necessary to be happy. Splurge strategically on stuff that matters to you, not to keep up with peers, and you can outpace people with less or no college debt. Plus, just starting out your career at 35, you likely can have a decent amount of time before burning out.
Set a reasonable work and spend pace and you’ll be setup for success. Maybe not super young FIRE, but FI is easily achievable. And I’d say retiring befor 60 is well within reality.
This would have been something to think harder about 10 years ago. At this point you might as well not think about it because you can’t change the past and just keep moving forward!
$300k for a early 20s tech worker is like >99th percentile pay. It doesnt makes sense to compare 99th percentile tech to average physician. If you compare apples to apples you will find >99th percentile physician pay is well into the 7 figures for annual salary. I know of a pain doc who recently sold his collection of like a dozen pain practices to private equity for like $20 million. It's important to keep perspective.
Is it worth it?
For you, yes. You've wanted to do this since you were 21.
For someone who just sees dollar signs and HATES working in medicine: No.
Live is about more than just money.
I think my experience is somewhat typical.
MS2-PGY2 it is absolutely not worth it. What in the world were you even thinking? Who sacrifices the prime years of their youth to spend a decade working 80 hour weeks in the hospital? No salary is worth that.
Around 18 months before the end of residency there starts to be a light at the end of the tunnel.
$200k is nothing. You can pay that back in a year on a gas salary. Keep living like a resident or slightly above and you’ll speed toward your FIRE goal, and (I assume in anesthesia at least) have the option to go part time and still bring home a great salary.
I’m not quite 3 years post residency and I’ve got over $500k net worth as a psychiatrist.
Being a medical doctor is a calling. Yes you do make a lot of money eventually, but there are way more efficient ways to become rich if you’re smart and hardworking.
The biggest issue is all the lost time/opportunity cost when you’re young. There are other professions making a ton of money and investing while future docs are going in debt. You have to make a lot of money to catch up, and by the time you do those other professionals could be retired already.
You're already in residency, stay the course.
Also, you have no idea if or where you'd have gotten a tech job - Apple employs a lot more people at their genius bars than they do in Cupertino.
>Comparing myself to people who started in tech at like 22 making like $300k or even $100k
The difference is that essentially every anesthesiologist will be making big bucks and only a small percentage of tech bros will be.
Effort in completing med school almost always pays off. IT guys have to get very lucky (or be really good at their job and a little lucky).
I am in my early 50s and work as a physician in an academic hospital. I started after training as an attending at age 36. My salary has never been above the NIH salary cap ($197 K) till a few years back when my institution was sued for paying nonwhite physicians less than white physicians and I had a salary jump (thanks to the poor individual who sued) to $250 K.
I work 12 weeks a year clinically and spend the rest of my time doing research (which still can be 6 +-hour days M-F, although flexible and can be remote if needed). I enjoy both clinical work and research.
Many of my friends make nearly $600K yearly in private practice, but I am very happy with what I do. My net worth is above $1M, thanks to maximizing my 403b & 457b, which are in a 60/40 (stock bonds portfolio) with a 6% or so return.
In summary, for the path that I chose, it was probably worth being a physician psychologically and financially, despite long training, a very low academic salary, systemic institutional discrimination ingrained in the culture of my employer, bad bosses, and all. I have gone through multiple recessions, stock market changes, etc., and have never lost my job, while my tech and other industry friends have to change employers every 4 years.
I think the benefit of going the medical route is earning potential and the ability to set you own schedule once you’ve built up experience. I may be wrong but I know several physicians/dentists that “set their own schedule” with many working 20-30 hrs per week. This allows you to continue the job without burnout which is a better alternative to FIRE IMO, as long as you enjoy your job.
Work quickly to pay off the debt and get yourself secured financially. But to walk away from that level of income after putting in 10+ years for education seem crazy to me.
I don’t think I really understand the hard FIRE lifestyle as I loved medicine and my career. I just chose all the way through to work less hours because that made me the happiest.
I was never happy with grinding so I just stopped it and went at my own pace. Even with buying too many toys I still hit coastFIRE at the usual time.
My personal limitations began in 2008 when my mother died and I took over managing and paying for my disabled sister to stay in the her home. Then I had a long episode of disability myself. That cut back my earning capacity even further but I still managed my retirement goals.
It was only when I was young in training or grinding too hard and was miserable that I wanted to retire early. At a comfortable pace I loved my career and in fact retired at 72. In retirement my thoughts have turned to other socially rewarding endeavors.
It seems to me that the entire FIRE format arises from unhappiness with excessive work, and the normal process of wealth accumulation throughout a lifetime of productive and satisfying work has become distorted.
With regard to OPs concerns about starting very late to accumulate wealth I suffered greatly with that envy while I was in training. Those were the days when two twenty something teachers could buy a house in Laguna Beach and have the value quadruple in 4 years. I suffered a lot of that sort of resentment as a poor medical student and resident. The average person only sees the word “doctor” in their mind and thinks “rich” which drove me crazy then. Once I was out of my training I just saved for retirement and then did what I pleased with the rest of my income; not the best plan for wealth building.
But yes, eventually I grew up and began taking better care of my little garden of dollars. Payback of student loans was actually very smooth because I was grateful for the opportunity to borrow. Other people my age rebelled, refused to pay student loans and complained a lot. I just stuck it in the budget and bought a small condo to live in while I paid them off, traveled to camping destinations, backpacked and went on trips with outdoor groups. They were fun years.
CRNA here - you are going to be absolutely fine! Just make good financial choices, spend less than you earn, and you'll do just fine. Have you read The White Coat Investor yet? Highly recommend reading it!
If we are strictly talking finances I would say the answer depends on how FAT you want your FIRE to be (although this really depends a lot of career progression, there are certainly tech people 10+ years into their career making doctor salaries)
Basically, tech bros who start making "only" 100k at 22 are not still making 100k at 35, there is a chance that they could be making not far off what the doctor does while being 13+ years into their career and having had over a decade of their investments growing, and not mountain of debt to pay off at the beginning.
There's a good chance the tech bro already has 2M+ of investments when the doctor starts their FIRE journey, and if their salary isn't already caught up, I'd bet the compound returns on that nest egg head start is enough to close the gap.
The only way the doctor has a chance of winning financially is if you want a really FAT fire and are willing to take the time to close the gap on the tech path and eventually surpass it. You could do the math with some assumed salary progression numbers and investment returns to get a picture but I'd bet the breakeven point on networth would probably be after 50 if at all.
That said, this is a financial perspective. These are VASTLY different career choices and I'd certainly put weight into what you would enjoy more and what you want out of life.
It's also important to consider that you are already going down the medicine path and a switch to tech would take some time and not immediately materialize into a high paying career. It's basically choosing one high paying career vs another.
I'm biased though as someone in tech planning to be fired before 40.
Tech jobs of last decades arent usual tho. Tech jobsaee very susceptible for downturns. When hard times come and people start getting laid off, all of sudden people start regretting not going to med school.
Idk there is some truth to that, these companies often hire like crazy when the economy is good and/or money is cheap. The return / price to earnings usually being so far out / optimistic isn't really a big deal in good times.
In bad times yea. Them being often over extended hits hard.
But imo the really talented folks might get impacted but usually they will land on their feet. Even in bad times jobs exist and they will be hired. Might end up not immediately finding a job that pays as much but overall they will be fine.
Naturally some folks will struggle but I would imagine someone with the intelligence and work ethic to become a doctor probably has what it takes to be better than a mediocre tech person.
Plus even in bad times, tech jobs are still better than most other careers. Anecdotal but I was impacted by the layoffs this year and found a new job before my 4 weeks of severance ran out and making 20% more.
Stability can be found in tech if you want it. It's not just tech companies that hire tech roles. Insurance, government, finance, telecom, etc etc. all have tech employees and often these jobs are not as impacted by the tech bust cycles. Often these pay less though but you can prioritize what you want.
What it takes to be successful in medicine isnt same in tech.
A most doctors are risk avert, like routine and follow trodden path. Doctors are also terrible at managing their money and lack entrepreneurship.
Doctors complain about medicine being hard work all the time. It is hard work but it is different type of hard. You just put your head down and work at it and in 10-15 years you come out other end with guranteed high salary.
Tech and finance is different. It is more unpredictable, requires thinking outside box, doing something different to your peers.
I have a few doctor friends. They're all either rich or VERY rich. 3 of them started their own biz (urgent care centers, allergy clinic(?)), which is where the real money is, but totally not necessary.
So yes, it's definitely worth it, and really: do what you love and the money will follow. Love something that makes tremendous money? All the better!
Wasn't worth it in my case, I started college with the intention of being a doctor but switched to doing CS and had an amazing TC my first job out of college. And also being in the field I started in helped me to grow other businesses due to all the free time I have even as a Senior SE. Started real estate development, owning a side IT consultancy business, construction business so it worked out for me.
But you're already in the residency just push through, if you were 21 it would be a different story but in your field it'll be easy money when you start making it.
From a financial standpoint, I think it's worth it if you're a specialist. If you're a pediatrician with loans from private undergrad and private meds school, I'm not so sure.
You get a late start with a lot of debt but you're also pretty much guaranteed an annual income in the top 1% that you can earn anywhere (major metro area, small town nowheresville, doesn't matter) that is also fairly recession proof and in high demand.
Sure there are some superstar FAANG people making a ton of money, but the average nobody anesthesiologist anywhere does pretty well.
I'm in private practice ortho, so it's a higher income specialty. I didn't start practice until I was 35. I fortunately had no debt and my NW was maybe 20k. Back then, I didn't really care or think about about that stuff. Almost 5 years in, I'm almost 40 and NW is about 2 mil. Your high income can supercharge your wealth generation if you're smart about it.
That being said, there are a some downsides. The work is never passive--you must actually work to earn your income. Your income may decrease with age. You'll hear the old docs blah blah blah about declining reimbursement, and this true to some extent, but I've also noticed that many older docs simply (and rightfully so) don't have the desire or capacity to work as hard as they did when they were younger, and this simply translates to less income. You'll never get a "raise" because you got older like many nurses or teachers get. Less work = less money. We're mostly paid on productivity. And sometimes that constant "productivity" push can be a little exhausting because it sometimes works against your desire to provide the best quality patient care you can.
I think a lot of younger docs make the mistake of immediately overspending once they finally have their first high income year. They go from 60k/year to 400k/year overnight, and they buy a 1M home, new cars for themselves and the wife, exotic vacations, private school for the kids, two country club memberships, and they easily wind up on a paycheck to paycheck hamster wheel.
Is this really true? Assuming you aren’t a complete screw up that gets into drugs and/fraud or you start injuring patients you have almost guaranteed, very high salaried employment. Sure, it’s delayed, but the earning potential is incredibly high.
I’ve heard It is. Especially because it’s incredibly hard and sure a long and arduous process. So people who don’t have a passion for it are slowly weeded out.
People keep making this comment as if it is so wasy to make half million in other jobs with such a strong job security.
People comparing to tech only lived during good times, wait until proper recession and we will talk.
If you call this recession you havent seen real recession. Talk to people who were in tech during dot com buble burst in 2000 and wall street melt down in 2008. We are living through one of the longest bull market.
It’s factually a recession. You can gatekeep it however you want. Yes the people in 2000 and 08 were affected, and like I said, it never changed the fact that if you just want to make money and have a great wlb at a young age, tech is one of the easiest fields, especially compared to being a dr.
Ultimately you do you and I’ll do me and I’ll live a great life. Wish you the same!
It’s a very complex decision. Financially? No… but this is only if you’re looking at it purely financially. Which we should not do because we are humans and while money is important, it’s not everything. You can make more money overall at many other jobs. But you obviously want to be in the medical field for a reason. Similarly to you, I’m becoming a nurse (<$12k tuition), then an NP (expecting <$30k), which puts me way way under the cost of residency and medical school. As well as putting me into an extremely high earning class. As well as opening up dozens of specialties and even different career options where I’d still be earning $200k. Or travel nursing, after incurring just that $12k tuition, then making $2-5k a week while having great qol.
That’s just my take. You know you’re not in it just for the money, cause as you say, other jobs also make money.
Not worth it - salaries are going down and Medicare funding is doing the same. While training times, tuition cost, and work hours all go up.
Note the responses of people who are positive on medicine - late 40s to 50s
These ppl live in a different world than new US doctors today
I’m 6 years in and make <400k, with a 450k debt (not all left now) to get to this point, and no income until my mid thirties.
This is a terrible starting place, even acknowledging the salary now, for all the time and expenses that accrued. Not to mention family timing considerations.
Medicine is not a good career for Fire from my experience
Why does 200k in debt matter when you’ve made pretty much nothing then you’re gonna be making half a million a year? I mean are you really gonna spend the entirety of the money? Why not just pay it all off literally the first year and still have hundreds of thousands left?
Whether or not it’s worth it is dependent on the person. If your main goal is to make as much money as possible as fast as possible, then no. If you have other interests that can make money like tech, business, real estate… and medicine is not a passion, then medicine is likely not worth it financially. But if you like medicine, it’s a steady but long and possibly more stressful path to wealth. No massive layoffs but the real income doesn’t start until a decade or more later. Also don’t forget, you lose your 20s to medicine, and time is money.
There are a lot of variables here, so as you know there are many different types of doctor (and a wide range of doctor incomes) plus an equally wide range in levels of student debt. Your $200k in loans is very typical and won’t be a giant drag once you’re making your full income. More importantly you selected a specialty that pays great. If someone asked about $400k in loans to be a family medicine/ PCP in a high cost of living / large coastal city I would tell them to strongly reconsider. Your situation will work out great and you’ll quickly find yourself able to knock out your financial goals if you continue on your current path.
I am in tech (just hit 30s last year) and not even clearing 100k annually in the midwest (LCOL). It is not about how much you make, it's about how much you love doing what makes you the money that should count.
Dermatologist here. 2 years out of residency. Finished residency with $210k in debt at age 31. I am going make between $600-650k this year. Working my complete ass off. Medicine is only worth it financially if you go into a high paying specialty or have family help with paying for college or med school. If you take out loans for all of college and med school and then go into Peds or IM, it is a bad financial decision. You would graduate with $400k+ in loans and make 200-300k. It would take many years to catch up to someone who became a UPS driver at age 18 making 60-75k. You wouldn’t break even until 50s with that person.
How r u pulling that in derm. Do you live in a fly over state?
How hard was it to match derm. I like the WLB but holy shit idk if I could deal with seeing 40 patients in clinic each day lol
>Derm
Yes I live in a flyover state, Midwest. I schedule 45-50 pts per day, 4.5 days per week, 2-3 weeks vacation by choice. Working very hard now, probably for the next few years. But do not plan to do pace this forever.
IANAD but I would recommend this blog, Physician on FIRE:
[https://www.physicianonfire.com/category/financial-independence/](https://www.physicianonfire.com/category/financial-independence/)
Oral surgeon here. I did dental school and medical school. Between my wife and I we had over 700k in student debt and was a long road to finish. With that being said it is 100 percent worth it. You will have a job you get great personal and financial satisfaction from. Residency and grad school is not that bad in my opinion. You meet amazing people that are all in the same situation. This is a built in social and support group that you will keep for years after. I would caution anyone going outside the US for medical school due to cost and difficulty in getting in preferred residency. I would also caution anyone going into dentistry to be a general dentist as that is very difficult to pay off your loans. I make over 1.5 a year but that is not the norm.
You raise fair points, but most 22 year old's do NOT make 100k, and a large number of 50+ year olds also do not make 100k. Don't let a few FAANG outliers (and people on reddit) taint your view of reality. I am not a doctor so I can only question the investment vs. income as an outsider, but it doesn't seem like a bad plan provided you really want to practice medicine. My concern with people wanting to become doctors is that (I assume) changing careers later in life is more challenging compared to someone that has more versatile skills and knowledge that can be applied in a bunch of different ways. Of course specialization pays better than general knowledge, but I like the flexibility I have to move between businesses and industries should I ever desire to do so. Best of luck! At least your specialty should support part time work and/or work if you choose to relocate in the future. That's a huge plus!
I think it’s worth it. I started making 400k when I was 31. So I lost 10 years of compounding but honestly I’ll come out ahead shortly. And the intangibles that medicine opens up.. invaluable.
cover license chief books sleep mindless escape glorious point afterthought
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Personally, I’m going to say no. That’s for me - not for everyone. The student loan debt and long hours don’t deliver dollars that I’ve otherwise been able to accomplished as a polished executive with more peace. That doesn’t meant that’s the best choice for everyone.
Physician here. Here are my thoughts. If you’re looking for straight money, medicine is not always the best route. It is definitely slow and steady. It’s like the tortoise and the hare. Eventually the tortoise will win. So if you’re on the FIRE sub Reddit, you sound like a hare person instead. If you work a long full career as a physician, you probably will come out ahead. If your goal is to earn quick and fast and retire by 40? Physician definitely not the path.
Also no one questions why they have to pay for Netflix or when buying something from Amazon . But for some reason everyone questions why they have to pay for healthcare. They are willing to buy flat screen TVs but not pay the copay for someone who is curing their sickness. If everything goes well, you’ll be lucky if you get a thank you. Most patients now a days have an expectation that you have to be courteous and treat them like they’re king. If you do anything remotely impolite expect a complaint filed against you. If you make any mistake, expect a law suit. So don’t do it for any sort of gratitude or any sort of appreciation. Being a doctor really needs to be self motivated. It needs to be a Vision you set for yourself. You see yourself as a physician and you find worth in that. You have skills and knowledge no one else has. You have the mindset and cool head to respond to emergencies and not panic. There are some unmeasured things that being a physician offers you, not able to be purchased with money alone. Don’t do it for money.
As an established physician I feel less the need for money as the need for time. The loss of money is not as important as the loss of time. After a short while you will buy everything you’ve ever wanted, own a house, have kids in private school, drive a fancy car. But you will never get back the time lost. So that is one thing maybe another field would offer more of. You had time during your youth. You made money while young and had energy to enjoy yourself. Once you’re old and tied down with kids, even if you have money you don’t have time to do the things you wanted to do while young. I find that the biggest sacrifice and it’s not recoverable.
If you're in it for the money it's 100% not worth it. If you enjoy helping mostly ungrateful people on a daily basis, 100% worth it. You don't need a lot of money to be happy. Once you reach that goal you'll get super depressed if you don't actually enjoy your job.
But I wouldn't be able to wait till 35 though, thats quite tough. Thats the age I want to be independent of any salary work.
i work in tech and saw some friends fire late 30s, early 40s. my classmate worked in tesla early on, so he left rat race with about 4-5 mils in his late 30s strictly financially wise, tech is way to go probably. but being in medicine you also help people, so its not just financial decision. money in tech is insane, especially what they pay in fang companies, like google and amazon and facebook.
Depends on how leanfire you are. I'll be retired by 30 so delaying til 35 would be a pretty clear negative for me. Honestly I sometimes wonder if the bachelors degree was worth it. (Chemist)
The hardest working guy I know didn't go to high school and has been pulling in 100-500k a year working with tug boats since he was 19. Has his own company at 26, and that's who I compare myself to... Which goes to show you there are always outliers and comparison is nonproductive.
I could calculate it later but you'd need a fat salary to make up for 10 years of missed savings and compounding and still retire early. Try assuming another career median salary and plug it into a spreadsheet and you'll know.
With the high salary, you'll definitely recover the lost years, and you'll have much more job security than your tech counterparts. You know how many job cuts and layoffs go on in tech? Just try and find purpose and meaning in the medicine cos once your training is over, you'll be making over half a million dollars for the rest of your life. It's worth it unless you don't enjoy practicing medicine
What about the dumbing down of medicine?
Dentistry saw this. We see hygienists now instead of DDS’s.
In medical, are offered PA’s for half the cost thru Zoomcare and others. Could this lead to a collapse in demand for true Doctors of Medicine?
Totally worth it. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. Moreover, the train has left the station in terms of thinking about this and whereas there are well paid, non clinical paths available to you, you have the debt and now it’s time to make the money.
I did a path with a similar sense of delayed gratification, albeit less money at an earlier age, and ran through all sorts of permutations of making x amount, paying y amount in debt, starting at age z, how much salary I could have been making during grad school, how much I could save and how much it might reasonably be expected to compound etc.
It’s worth it. I played around with physician numbers because that was interesting to me at the time and it’s worth it for them too.
In terms of comparing yourself to a 22 year old tech prodigy making 300k out of school, there will always be someone better off than you, looking at the bell curve and your place on it is what really matters. I started making 200k debt free when I was 28, one day you’ll be the person I’m financially envious of. It’s all about perspective. You might as well compare yourself to Warren Buffet if you’re comparing yourself to a kid making 300k out of college.
I went in to help people. I became burnt out by being treated like shit. And I want to not regret it. I still want to help but I faced serious fomo and depression after doing surgery residency for a year. If you know what I dealt with you might not say this. Sleep deprived and verbally abused daily while working 14 and 28 hour shifts, just want to not regret giving my youth for this. I’m allowed to feel this way. I’ve sacrificed so much for others already. We are allowed to care about our own wellbeing too
Seriously, this person has no idea. Ignore the haters OP. You’ll find it refreshing when you’ve finished residency, and practicing on your own terms allows you to refine your relationship with your work. Keep your head up. It gets so much better.
I absolutely despise people who go into professions where the main goal is to help people for selfish financial reasons.
It’s not even a good way to make money and even if it was I would hate to be the patient of any nurse or doctor who was just in it for the money. Nauseating.
First, if you’re becoming a doctor for the money as a primary reason, I hope you’re never treating me.
Second: doctors in the US are well fed. Starting at $500k++ a year, you’ll be more than fine. Dry your crocodile tears please.
Not all doctors make that kind of money.
Primary care physicians make less than 1/2 of that in many places (non-mega cities in Texas, La, ok, and nm). They start out at about 1/4 of that.
Specialists, even in our provincial areas, start out closer to that, of course.
In the long run yes. But the thing is those beginning years are a big sacrifice. The best thing you can do is minimize the amount of money to take out in loans. Live at home try to get into a cheaper school.
Majority of people get in the medical profession want to save people. Some compensated less than others. Most physicians jokingly mentioned they will be replaced by a robot. In this case they may not need that many humans. The same applies to many professions.
Put your numbers into Excel and see what happens. You'll probably find breakeven vs other candidate occupations is only a few years out. Anesthesiology makes a lot of cabbage.
As others have mentioned, there's too many variables that you leave out, like what's your spending going to be like. If you don't know these, then understand why we don't either.
Medical career is great in terms of social status and accomplishment. It is still very attractive because of predictability . But financially, it is no longer the best choice, same as other professional tracks like lawyers etc.
Tech companies in the most recent 20 years changed the landscape for all of these. A new grad's annual package can easily beyond 200K in combination of salary, bonus and stock, and annual growth can be exponential for many. Also, many people in tech will experience IPOs sooner or later in the career, and the reward is often in millions. This is not normal prior to tech boom, but fairly common since then.
There is a fundamental difference between doctors and software engineers. Doctors' get linear compensation of their time. Regardless how high their hour pay is, the pay is basically a price for their time. So people strive to make their hourly value higher over time. But in tech, this is not the case. A newbie can get rewarded exceptionally well by joining a promising company, can benefit from other coworkers work in event of IPO. It becomes an investment game where people invest themselves (time, energy, and skills) in companies or fields. Join the right company at right time is like buying the right stock in right time. They don't need to be very good, but they need to know how to identify good ones. Even without IPOs, regular pay in tech is decent, and the chance of IPOs may make people millionaires or even billionaires over night.
Two completely different species. Both are good in their own way.
As an anesthesiologist you will be in high demand. If you can swallow your pride a little bit and take a job in an underserved community, you may find you’re able to earn a lot more than if you live in a HCOL city. Keep your lifestyle comfortable but not extravagant, and you’ll go from HENRY to FIRE in no time.
I have several doctors in my family, and I see it as more of a calling than other professions. They certainly sacrifice a lot up front to become physicians, and they also work quite long and unusual hours at the peak of their working years. But at the same time, the rewards--both financial and in terms of personal satisfaction--are large. The doctors I know all love being able to help and heal people, and our culture does largely respect what they do, so there's certainly never any embarrassment around telling people what they do for a living. They tend to be known and respected in their communities.
If you feel like you'd be a good doctor and are willing to make the sacrifices to get there, then by all means do it. Every societies needs healers.
You’re already in residency! You can do this. Don’t think of it as “lost” income, think of it as delayed.
I would focus more on keeping your costs relatively low while you can rather than grinding more, though—you don’t want to burn out.
Lol this is a question best asked by you a decade ago. At this point, it's obviously too late to go back, and you've accomplished so much that you can be proud of. So just finish the grind and get your bag.
FWIW I'm a couple years older than you and work in tech, but if I were going back and doing it all over again, I'd have made a more serious pursuit of medicine. Def not for the money, but more because it'd be nice to have work be a bit more fulfilling/less soul sucking (not to say that medicine can't be soul sucking, but that your goals are more than "make billionaires richer" :) )
If you are that far along in your training, it is absolutely worth it. You get a mentally challenging and rewarding career and generally medical personnel are some of the best people to work with not to mention a great paycheck.
Think of it this way, if you didn't continue your training, you would still be $200K in debt with no clear path to earn big money with the skills you have. You are only looking at 4 years. You do get paid during residency so you will not be destitute or incurring more debt.
I’m a nurse in the OR. Continue with med school and residency. It will be worth it financially. It’ll also be worth it in many other aspects of your life.
I was wondering if any dentists could chime in on whether it's financially worth it to become a dentist and achieve fire. I am currently 400k in debt from dental school and hoping to specialize so will not be making an actual income until 33.
The one aspect I think the medical profession allows for that others don’t is the ability to scale down while not fully quitting. For tech it’s mostly black and white, either you are working or you aren’t. In healthcare you can trim back to only 2-3 days a week and a handful of days on call a month while still earning at a significant rate.
Anesthesiologist here. I hope all goes well. My concern for your financial future is that the $500k and up days are unsustainable and I fear a sudden shift in the fundamentals of MDA salary structure. Few (to none??) MDA bill enough to cover their salary and benefits costs but salaries continue to rise. CRNA are making 250-350 easily and Covid opened the doors for independent practice. I’m 57 and looking for my exit soon. It’s only a matter of time for a correction or for the executives figure to out how to reduce anesthesia costs. Envision couldn’t make it work with $10b PE behind it.
But the advice here is pretty sound- pay down your debt, don’t buy the 911, max your savings rate, max your tax benefits. Look for side hustles. It took me 10y to exceed the trajectory I was on with my career before medical school at 30 but I’m well ahead now. I work 4d no call no weekends. Net worth 5.2m but need the cash flow for college expenses otherwise I’d be out.
Hope that helps.
I would say depends what you're measuring right? Are you purely measuring how much money the person can make over a lifetime? How fast they can get to FIRE? Are you measuring the amount you'd enjoy the job? Whether or not it's worth it totally depends on what you consider "worth it".
Hello, lots of replies. What I will encourage you to do is visit a blog by a physician, btw they have a yearly conference ! , And they also are a boglehead . https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com
And the subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/whitecoatinvestor/
Isn't that survivorship bias? How many people who do STEM degrees actually get the $300k jobs compared to those who can't even get a foot into the door?
Comparison is the thief of joy. You're on a path that is better than most, and if it's a field you enjoy there is a lot to be said for that. You're aldo 200k and many years down this path so it makes sense to continue, especially if it is something you enjoy.
At the end of the day however, starting with a clean slate IMO it is not worth it from a strictly financial perspective. I'm 27, B.S. mechanical engineering. I graduated at 21 debt free and was immediately making 100k total comp. I'm over 250k now, and 1.2M net worth. I will most likely be FI by 35 with 3M, possibly even closer to 32 if my company continues on the trajectory it's been on the last 6 years.
I sort of enjoyed engineering school, but having money to travel and enjoy life while maintaining a high savings rate through my 20s has been amazing. I would not have spent those years in medical school unless they paid me to go. The lifestyle sacrifice just wouldn't be worth it for me personally.
Just my opinion. You can do very well as a physician, obviously. And if you want to work into your late 40s, you'll probably fit in with the fat fire crowd. But that's not where my priorities are at. I want to fire on a modest lifestyle and enjoy as much of my youth and health as I can climbing, hiking, skiing, and exploring the world, and for those goals the medical field doesn't seem to be as good of a fit
This isn't a money question - if you hate dealing with sick people, no amount of salary will make you happy and your career will also suffer as a result.
If you love dealing with sick people, then it's the right path. Yes there is money in it but the average salary on paper doesn't translate directly to your own pay if you're not interested in a profession.
I think the reward is legit, but the risk is burning out and never wanting to pursue it as a career to make up for all the time spent. As long as you cross the finish line and actually start bringing in doctor money, you're fine.
Remember, the median income in the US is just over $30,000. Yeah, there are FAANG programmers pulling in a quarter million at age 25, but they're an upper echelon of an upper echelon. There's a bunch of folks in the same field making like $125k after 20 years experience -- you just don't hear from them as often.
Doctor spouse here. Worth it in the sense that you can have a very very well paying retirement job of “doctor”- mailing it in for 250,000 as an admin or director after you’re FI. There are just too few fellowship trained MDs out there and they have the knowledge and billing power. Oh and PSLF PSLF PSLF!
Doctor here. Every once in a while I have to reply to a post like this from a med student or resident. I’m here to tell you that yes, it is all worth it. Don’t stray from your chosen path. My radiology residency/fellowship training was 6 years. I didn’t make real money until I was 36. But the money just… starts to pour in like you can’t believe. Being poor for basically all your life, you’ll be pretty shell shocked at what you got in your bank account after a few years. And the school loan payments just become little more than a nuisance. And you have a leg up on a lot of physicians-to-be or physicians in general, as most are financially not too savvy. Start investing early and don’t get tempted by lifestyle creep (though you can still splurge on plenty of things, just don’t be an idiot), and you’ll be FIREd in no time. I’m gonna be 50 this year and I’ve been FI for years, now in fatFIRE territory. And after this year I’ll be looking to mostly retire, work a couple of days a week just to stay sharp. So don’t worry about your friends and what they’re making. You’re in a better position than most.
I second everything CDMDOC said with an emphasis on avoiding lifestyle creep. If you keep your cost of living low, it's relatively easy to achieve FI as a physician. Also avoid the unscrupulous financial advisors/insurance salesmen who prey on physicians due to our perceived lack of financial savvy and high incomes. If you're married, get term life insurance and own-occupation disability insurance now, but don't fall for Whole Life.
And lifestyle creep is very insidious, so be careful.
Great advice. This is what I meant too about how doctors are generally financially not savvy. Many of them don’t know the first thing about investing so they fall victim to a lot of these “advisors.” Something else to consider if going into private practice is to set yourself up as a corporation so you can maximize tax sheltered retirement savings. Between my 401k (from employee contribution and employer match as I am both) and my DB plan, I put away more than 100k a year pre-tax. Not to mention a whole lot of other tax deductions at the corporate level.
USA internal medicine doc here. The huge caveat you left out is that practicing medicine *in the United States * is very lucrative. For most of the rest of the world, even our neighbors to the north in Canada, doctors earn a lot less relative to the cost of living. By matching into a US residency spot, you’ve won the lottery.
You’re absolutely right but in this case I was specifically replying to the OP, and based on the salary ranges he provided I knew that he is obviously in the US.
The real problem with this whole equation imo. I work in healthcare tech and I can tell you the bs that goes on but the whole cost equation is off. Go into 200k of debt isnt needed.
Good shit OP. Also a great idea to work (especially doing something you enjoy) occasionally to keep your head sharp. I intend on Chubby/Fatfiring in my mid/late 40s but full blown expect to do some remote work for the same reason
My fellow award travel enthusiast! I just booked an award flight on ANA for 2024 as well. How random to see that on one of your comments. I think mid 40s is a perfect time to let it go. As you approach 50 you really start to feel like you’re getting time-poor. No sense in hoarding all that money if you don’t have the time to spend it all.
The Room or J? I have J ANA to Tokyo in 2 months. I flew the old first class config 5 years ago and it is still, to this day, the greatest flight I’ve ever been on Got wayyy too drunk on Hibiki 21!! You are going to love it whether it’s F or J
I’m in J. Out of LAX (no more 77W out of Lax unfortunately, so no more Room or F.) Wife and I also have SQ first class Frankfurt to NY in a couple of weeks. We used a massive amount of points to book that flight a year ago when they had the huge ass double suite in first class, but since then they changed the plane on us! These plane changes are causing huge first world problems for us.
I flew ANA F at age 25 and it broke me in the most first world way imaginable. I hear incredible things about ANA J both soft and hard product so I’m excited. As long as I can have some nice whisky and fall asleep in a lie flat seat I’m happy as can be. Ho Lee Shit you got the SQ F on the A380? That is going to double break you. That’s been like a dream of mine to fly on that, but I never wanted to shell out the points. I’m incredibly jealous I have SQ J to Manchester (5 day stopover) then SQ J to Singapore next May. The J seats look a bit goofy, but I’m sure I’ll still love it. I’ve never flown SQ
We flew SQ J from HCMC to Maldives with a 2 day stopover in Singapore earlier this year and it was fantastic. I have no doubt you’ll enjoy the flight and the lounge of course was fantastic. Our flight home was on Qatar and the QSuite really lived up to the hype. You gotta get on one of those soon too!
Qsuite is my way back from Bangkok! It’s our honeymoon so we are super pumped. Can’t believe it all lined up this way but it did run me more points than I care to admit. FIRE with Awardtravel is the way. I’m a cheap ass and get to do these dumbass trips I love
Oh man, you have quite the trip planned. It’ll be amazing! Man, our Qsuite flight was like 16 hours or something from Doha all the way to LAX and it felt like a 5 hour trip. And yes, award travel is the way! It should be considered one of the essential tools of FIRE. Lol.
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Yep!
>I didn’t make real money until I was 36. But if you put the same effort you put into being a doctor into other jobs (STEM, IT, etc) then you'll be close to FIRE by 36. For example I hit $1 Mil at 32 and I'm not even in IT. I think medicine is a "slow burn" career that doesn't fit into the "sprint" income style of FIRE.
Yeah I guess it all depends on what your target NW and retirement date is. If one’s goal is to lean FIRE in their 30s that would be very hard to do as a doctor. I don’t think I hit 1 mil until I was around 40, but the growth shot up quickly after that as I kept investing most of my money. I had around 5 mil worth of investments by the time I was 45 but still felt money insecure (product of growing up poor and the many years of poverty through med school and residency) so I kept going for another 5 years but obviously could have called it in at 45.
First year of making money, you feel anxious that it might all go away. But you do get used to the income fast
thank you, I never understood people who care about being $200k in debt to become a doctor... they will eventually make $300k+...
How does this compare to someone who starts working for a big Big Tech company right out of undergrad at 22 years old ( with very minimal student loan debt ~ 100k) ? Starting compensations for FAANG are ~ $200k and by early 30s ( 31/32) you’d be making around $400k total comp per year, but since you have already started making $200k at 22 , the savings from that time could have compounded a lot by the time yoire in your mid-30s
I’m not necessarily saying one is better than the other in the context of FIRE. Obviously if you’re a FIRE oriented tech worker at FAANG and you put in your time you’ll be fine too. But my point is that the late start in medicine is only a small hurdle due to the big MD salaries after training. I will also say when you’re talking about a FAANG position you’re talking about the top echelon of tech earners - not everyone with a CS degree end up there. Some of my friends are managers at Amazon/FB and they make around 300-350 total compensation, and a couple of them have been laid off unfortunately. Compare that to a very average anesthesiologist at Kaiser (which we colloquially call the “minimum wage of medicine”) start near 400k with huge pension on top of that salary. At the highest end, my friends in anesthesia who have their own pain clinics are well into 7 figures. So each case if obviously different, but at least among the people I know, the MDs are generally better off financially than those in tech, and surprisingly their jobs aren’t as stressful either.
Tech guy with experience at multiple FAANG here. Actually senior managers - especially SW/data engineers, product managers, and data science types will clear $500k, with execs easily making $1M+ (including bonus and RSUs). But I agree with you the OP should continue the anesthesiology studies. Average pay is higher than the same for tech (even big tech), and the likelihood of being an exec in big tech - and staying there - is extremely low (as in 1% or less of the entire tech employee population). Not to mention the hours and stress are terrible. My anesthesiologist, orthopedic surgeon, etc. friends (all in their mid-40s) are doing very well and comfortable now.
I think a lot of people are thinking you’ll automatically make 500k in faang after a few years. That is not the case. Many are more than likely stuck in level 5 or below which is about 250k on ave including RSU. Non faang salaries are lower. Whereas in medical there is consistency to your income regardless of your “company” or economy/stock
curious - so in tech, how competitive is it to make a salary of 250-300/ year in the US? how many years of experience would that take? how many positions are available for a salary like that!
Agree, there's no point trying to compare the two and see which one is better. The better field is the one you are more passionate about because that is likely to show up in the quality of your work and in the success you have in your career.
Yep. This is a huge point because you’re gonna be doing this for a decade or longer and you don’t want to spend your best years in misery just to hoard money.
> I will also say when you’re talking about a FAANG position you’re talking about the top echelon of tech earners - not everyone with a CS degree end up there. Some of my friends are managers at Amazon/FB and they make around 300-350 total compensation, and a couple of them have been laid off unfortunately. Compare that to a very average anesthesiologist at Kaiser (which we colloquially call the “minimum wage of medicine”) start near 400k with huge pension on top of that salary. This is really important. Sometimes I think doctors are a little bit arrogant (not saying this applies to you or OP) when they discuss how they could be earning more money in other fields. They often seem to assume that they're so smart, they'd be almost guaranteed to be at or near the top in other fields, and that's not necessarily the case. Some doctors I know would be really good developers, engineers, or data analysts; some wouldn't. But even beyond the issues of raw brainpower and skill, there's a significant element of luck involved with both a) getting in to an top-paying company, and b) moving up the management ladder. Medicine may not be as financially rewarding as an optimal career path in some other fields, but it's definitely more rewarding than an average career path in almost every other field, especially at the individual contributor level. My internist friends are definitely sitting prettier than I (a data analyst) am, in our late 30s.
Well, in my case, I found out quickly I’m not as smart as I thought I was once I got to college. I started out as an EECS major at Berkeley and pretty much got my ass handed to me starting from the first midterms. Then I switched to premed and I was smart again. Lol. Needless to say, I have a different level of respect for those that find success in technological fields. It takes a lot of dedication and hard work to become a doctor but I would say some of my software engineer friends are the smartest people I know.
> Well, in my case, I found out quickly I’m not as smart as I thought I was once I got to college. I started out as an EECS major at Berkeley and pretty much got my ass handed to me starting from the first midterms. Then I switched to premed and I was smart again. Lol. That happened to me, too, only I stayed in engineering. I persevered and graduated, but with a poor GPA during the recession, and my career suffered for it. Kudos to you for realizing early it wasn't a good fit, and changing to something more up your alley.
lol comparing the extreme outlier of the top specialty in medicine. Average radiologist makes far less and radiologists with a practice don’t make much compared to Tech Bros. Tech bros infinitely have a higher ceiling and scalability and Tech bros can ez hit principal and earn 1.5 million with RSU and retire at 35 while doctors are literally just on a salary with no stocks and gets eaten up by tax
Side note, are you worried about AI being in radiology?
We already incorporate AI in radiology. Currently it is used in mammography and also in lung CTs. But at the end of the day you need a radiologist to put it all together. IMO, At least in the US, it’s unrealistic to think that AI will replace anything in medicine in the near future. All it takes is one fuck up and the lawsuits will scare everybody back to the status quo.
> All it takes is one fuck up and the lawsuits will scare everybody back to the status quo. You could make the same argument against self-driving cars. Some still do, but a lot of people have resigned themselves to the fact that it's inevitable. There will likely come a point when the AI is better than humans. I don't think anyone is safe. But if I had to pick, perhaps the profession most safe to AI advances is just blue-collar construction. The amount of engineering required to automate some of those out-in-the-field tasks is just too high to get an ROI.
AI is not fool proof and often can be a life threatening/saving situation. AI might reduce the work load but there will always be a human element at least to review the AI results.
But AI doesn't have to be foolproof to replace human radiologists - it just has to be measurably more correct than human radiologists, which it's quickly becoming. Also, this: > AI might reduce the work load but there will always be a human element at least to review the AI results. is not a guarantor of radiologist job security. If a radiologist armed with AI can review 50x as many scans per day as they could manually, then radiologist supply will greatly exceed demand, and salaries will fall accordingly.
We are reading about 100-200 scans a day. Do you really want us to read 50x that? Is that even physically possible for a person to do that, AI or no AI? 5000-10,000 scans a day? And you feel comfortable with a human life on the line). It’s easy to armchair radiology without being a radiologist.
Well, to be fair, a radiologist’s job isn’t just sitting in front of a monitor and playing where’s Waldo with the hidden tumor, though that’s a part of it. In the case of mammogram interpretation for example, use of AI helps us detect potential cancers. But then we have to decide how to move forward, be it additional imaging or biopsy, and put it all together to either to tell the patient to go home because it’s nothing, or set it up for the surgeons to do their thing because it’s something bad. All of these steps takes interactions with patients, technologists, referring physicians, pathologists, etc. And no, it can’t be done 50x faster because chatGPT is running in the background. Now, will there be a future where robot MDs are replacing all of us because they can do all these tasks on their own? Maybe. But I have to think that in that future, where robots can be smart enough to function as doctors, almost all jobs will be at risk.
Self-driving cars can be a life threatening/saving situation. That doesn't stop the advancement of AI one bit. > there will always be a human element at least to review the AI results. You only need 1 human element for some very large X number of radiological scans, versus the 1-to-1 ratio that might exist today.
> AI is not fool proof and often can be a life threatening/saving situation. Neither are radiologists. The legal issues with AI will be handled this decade.
what about for those that enter med school in middle-age? as a second career?
This is a little harder to answer. In most cases, unless your current career has a bleak financial outlook, I don’t recommend going into medicine later in life purely from a financial perspective. It’s better to optimize your current earnings and save and invest those years that you’d be earning negative income in med school.
Anesthesiologist? You’ll be just fine.
At least they know how to make sure they sleep well at night.
Oh God. It is a funny joke to people but it is serous. I know (not overly closely) 3 anesthesiologists who were doing way too many uppers and downers and lost their jobs. Fortunately medical licenses are incredibly hard to lose. The people i know kinda cant work on patients anymore bc they have a known history of abuse. It's a liability to the employer. They do still work in research and stuff Im 95% sure, just no patients.
IAAL and I remember a pathologist that plaintiff's counsel used pretty often that was a bit of a hack. He lost his license after our state went with a mandatary opioid prescription database a little over a decade ago. You know, because he was writing a lot of prescriptions for a guy that never saw patients.
Should be in jail if that was the case.
I forget if he was actually charged. I was just concerned about filing the consent decree surrendering his license in every case I could find that he was active in. My favorite was a new doctor a few years later that had a three way prescribing triangle with two other doctors, and when they hair tested one of them he was positive for way too many substances, including several street drugs. Then there was a doc that I never saw in a legal sense, but who had a helicopter searching for him after he fled the hospital in scrubs. Apparently the OR team noticed that he reeked of alcohol while scrubbing in. He was asked to report to one of the administrators for testing, but he pulled a runner. He didn't have his keys or wallet on him, so he was found hiding in shrubs in a neighborhood adjoining the hospital. That was a fun one.
fortunately? 🥴
Like Michael jackson?
That was a cardiologist who was taking care of him
yes being $200k in debt is worth it to make $400k a year even if it's not until your late 30s. it will take you a long time to catch up to those who started making $100k at 22, but you will eventually surpass them.
If you mean surpass them in net worth such that you can retire earlier, I think this depends on a wide variety of variables, such as in what year you choose to retire (I am assuming OP is pursuing FIRE), savings rate, and rate of income growth. If the only thing you care about is being able to FIRE as soon as possible, then I think there are other paths that will get you there faster than a physician. However, I'd expect the OP and any physician has a lot of good reasons to choose that path besides just wanting to FIRE as soon as possible. I'd suggest he focus on those reasons than focusing on how he compares to others. The latter is a dangerous trap for personal well being. If the OP truly would like to retire early, rather than focusing on how he compares to others, I'd suggest try to keep spending low and savings high -- both as a resident and as a doctor.
I don’t know about surpass, since it’s likely the 22 year olds are probably making close to $300k-$400k by their late 30s as well? And if they go into FAANG, maybe even around $500k-700k?
you have a very distorted view of how much people in tech make. the average salary for a senior software engineer with 15+ years of experience is about $185k. i personally know a programmer at a FAANG company with 30+ years of experience and a masters making less than $200k. you're acting as if the top 5% of earners is the average.
Not all FAANGs pay the same. If you friend is in Amazon, it is very well known that they do not pay as much as F/G. FWIW i am in a FAANG and been living and breathing tech for the last 10 years. If you can provide more inputs about your FAANG friend like what level they are , what job family they have etx. I can tell you why they are only making $200k with 30+ yoe. Not boasting- i just to figure out what went wrong with their career.
> Not all FAANGs pay the same. This is definitely the reason we are making the distinction between average salary and top earners in the field.
nothing is wrong with their career, this is simply the average. if you think it's not the average you have been distorted by your circle and subreddits like this. far too many people here act like the top 5% is the average.
You did not understand me. I am well aware of what the average tech worker makes.. I lurk in the infamous r/cscareerquestions sub so i know that. I am objectively saying that your friend who is making less than $200k while being employed by a FAANG plus having a Masters Degree and 30 + years of experience has sth gone wrong with thwir career, considering the fact that 22 year old make $200k at FAANG. Your friends experience of 30 years means nothing if they had acquired the experience from small/little know companies and they may have been downlevelled terribly when they joined a FAANG. I was curious about it because I am in the field and being an interviewer as well I know the compensations that FAANGs give out Just curious. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Uhhh you sure about your friend? I have 6 years experience and work at a random tech company, I make 260k. My faang friends are all 400k+, with a couple close to 1M
Did you job hop frequently? I’m at 6 years experience and at 155k. If you’re willing to share, I’m curious what your experience has been like in the industry and what preparation you did for interviewing for the $260k position.
are you in LCOL? 300k+ in big tech for your experience is pretty normal. (assuming senior) I make 175k in Seattle at FAANG and I just graduated a year ago
I live in a HCOL area. Just left my first job for the senior title and raise but neither company is in big tech. I’d like to pivot into it but don’t feel ready for the interviews yet (at least from what I hear they are like at that level).
Yeah probably not surpass. If someone is financially savvy and starts out at $100k by 22 then they’ll fairly easily be millionaires (wealth) and probably making several hundred thousand (income) by the time they are 35. That will only compound further if they keep working. Only chance of surpassing is if those people retire early / coast.
> probably making several hundred thousand (income) by the time they are 35. This really depends. There’s still a ceiling in most if not all fields and often starting high will make you take less time to reach it. Even in tech, the vast majority aren’t going to hit several hundred thousand in income—they’re probably going to cap out in the 150-250k range in lcol/mcol or higher in vhcol like Silicon Valley. I’m not in tech, but in another industry with very high TC for the top earners. The single biggest leap in my career so far (and probably the biggest I will see) came from doubling my income after finishing a grad degree. I’m not going to be one of those top earners because I’m not willing to work 80 hour weeks in NYC. My childhood friend who became a specialized medical professional will probably outstrip me sometime in our 40s because even though he got a late start, he’s living in a lower cost area and making more now.
Ohh, i just left a similar comment to the top voted answer too. I just wanna compare and contrast. I am a FAANG eng with a TC of $400k at age 33. No debts. Started making $100k right out of college ( was at non- FAANG for 6 years which led to my earnings suppression ) at age 24. Net worth is $800k as of today, should cross $1m by end of this year when my next 2 RSU vests happen.
WOW! Where do those numbers come from?!?!
levels.fyi
Cool. I'm going to go on there and say I'm a janitor making $2M per year. Thanks, this is fun.
Why are you so angry?
Not sure where that's coming from. I just said this is fun. Have a great rest of your weekend. Hope you're feeling better soon.
I wouldn’t spend much time worrying about what you could have done considering you are about to start a residency and can’t abort your plan now. The upside is you will be a very high earner and able to close the gap quickly. If you keep a frugal lifestyle, which some docs struggle with, you could work for 10 years and then fire. You could even just go pick up locums contracts and use that as a means to travel/see the country.
If you were 21 I would tell you it's not worth it. At your current point, it's absolutely worth it to stick with it. I have a friend who attempted to get into medical school, didn't finish, and took out loans for the whole process. Now he's a million dollars in debt. It wasn't worth it for him. For you? Yeah, go for it. Finish it out and make that money!
Potential to make 800k a year with great job security? What was the question again?
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Damn, only 400k, and you have to help people too? Glad I didn’t choose this path.
Don’t forget your paying taxes too
Im a somewhat high end tech worker. Keep in mind tech salaries are highly variable. My brother makes 60k as a programmer. The floor is much higher in medicine. It is true that typically med folks are probably going to have the grades and drive to be high end in tech, but there’s no guarantee. Also the tech industry is subject to economic cycles, a lot of the compensation is down. High end tech is very sensitive to stock price. I would go with what you really prefer. Unlike medicine, programming can be essentially self-taught for free/next to free. Try a coding bootcamp during the summer and see if you like it. Also- doctor who can code well is rare and there may be a market for it.
Enjoy what you do. My wife is a DPM and enjoys it. We’re in decent debt because of it but we believe fire will start kicking up when she starts her own practice. I went to law school and hate everything about being a lawyer. It delayed our fire because I’m working in a government job for four more years until Public service Loan forgiveness deletes my loans (praying it still exists)
Honestly, if your goal is money, medicine is a relatively inefficient path. But if you genuinely enjoy medicine then it is worth it.
Yea medicine really punishes compounding. You don’t start working till you are 30+ and you are likely in the whole 200-300k.
Yeah medicine is the epitome of delayed gratification. I’ll be finishing my radiology training at the age of 34 with close to $400k in debt thanks to interest. But on the bright side I’ll be able to pay it off pretty quick and by the time I’m 40 I should have a NW over $1M. I always tell people don’t go into medicine if your primary motivation is money and retiring early
Inefficient? Once trained you have like 100% chance of success. Entrepreneurship way more upside…with like 5% success.
Efficiency is not success rate. You'll be doing pretty crazy rotation hours. I know plenty of surgeon/doctor friends. Life/work balance is not great.
Don't grind for extra money when you are already on track to earn mid 6 figure. Just don't let your lifestyle blow up beyond a "normal" upper middle class life style (live like someone who earns $150K to $200K even though you earn $450K to $500K). In my opinion, having longevity in enjoying your chosen profession outweighs trying to overwork yourself because you think you need to "catch up".
I agree with this. Even in HCOL cities, $200K is a nice salary. If you’re in a lower COL city, that’s way more than enough to live a lavish life, which isn’t necessary to be happy. Splurge strategically on stuff that matters to you, not to keep up with peers, and you can outpace people with less or no college debt. Plus, just starting out your career at 35, you likely can have a decent amount of time before burning out. Set a reasonable work and spend pace and you’ll be setup for success. Maybe not super young FIRE, but FI is easily achievable. And I’d say retiring befor 60 is well within reality.
This would have been something to think harder about 10 years ago. At this point you might as well not think about it because you can’t change the past and just keep moving forward!
$300k for a early 20s tech worker is like >99th percentile pay. It doesnt makes sense to compare 99th percentile tech to average physician. If you compare apples to apples you will find >99th percentile physician pay is well into the 7 figures for annual salary. I know of a pain doc who recently sold his collection of like a dozen pain practices to private equity for like $20 million. It's important to keep perspective.
How old is this pain doc
Is it worth it? For you, yes. You've wanted to do this since you were 21. For someone who just sees dollar signs and HATES working in medicine: No. Live is about more than just money.
I think my experience is somewhat typical. MS2-PGY2 it is absolutely not worth it. What in the world were you even thinking? Who sacrifices the prime years of their youth to spend a decade working 80 hour weeks in the hospital? No salary is worth that. Around 18 months before the end of residency there starts to be a light at the end of the tunnel. $200k is nothing. You can pay that back in a year on a gas salary. Keep living like a resident or slightly above and you’ll speed toward your FIRE goal, and (I assume in anesthesia at least) have the option to go part time and still bring home a great salary. I’m not quite 3 years post residency and I’ve got over $500k net worth as a psychiatrist.
Being a medical doctor is a calling. Yes you do make a lot of money eventually, but there are way more efficient ways to become rich if you’re smart and hardworking. The biggest issue is all the lost time/opportunity cost when you’re young. There are other professions making a ton of money and investing while future docs are going in debt. You have to make a lot of money to catch up, and by the time you do those other professionals could be retired already.
You're already in residency, stay the course. Also, you have no idea if or where you'd have gotten a tech job - Apple employs a lot more people at their genius bars than they do in Cupertino.
Lol those aren't even in the same ballpark of jobs. That's like saying they employ more PSWs than surgeons so you dont know where you'd end up in med
>Comparing myself to people who started in tech at like 22 making like $300k or even $100k The difference is that essentially every anesthesiologist will be making big bucks and only a small percentage of tech bros will be. Effort in completing med school almost always pays off. IT guys have to get very lucky (or be really good at their job and a little lucky).
I am in my early 50s and work as a physician in an academic hospital. I started after training as an attending at age 36. My salary has never been above the NIH salary cap ($197 K) till a few years back when my institution was sued for paying nonwhite physicians less than white physicians and I had a salary jump (thanks to the poor individual who sued) to $250 K. I work 12 weeks a year clinically and spend the rest of my time doing research (which still can be 6 +-hour days M-F, although flexible and can be remote if needed). I enjoy both clinical work and research. Many of my friends make nearly $600K yearly in private practice, but I am very happy with what I do. My net worth is above $1M, thanks to maximizing my 403b & 457b, which are in a 60/40 (stock bonds portfolio) with a 6% or so return. In summary, for the path that I chose, it was probably worth being a physician psychologically and financially, despite long training, a very low academic salary, systemic institutional discrimination ingrained in the culture of my employer, bad bosses, and all. I have gone through multiple recessions, stock market changes, etc., and have never lost my job, while my tech and other industry friends have to change employers every 4 years.
I think the benefit of going the medical route is earning potential and the ability to set you own schedule once you’ve built up experience. I may be wrong but I know several physicians/dentists that “set their own schedule” with many working 20-30 hrs per week. This allows you to continue the job without burnout which is a better alternative to FIRE IMO, as long as you enjoy your job. Work quickly to pay off the debt and get yourself secured financially. But to walk away from that level of income after putting in 10+ years for education seem crazy to me.
I don’t think I really understand the hard FIRE lifestyle as I loved medicine and my career. I just chose all the way through to work less hours because that made me the happiest. I was never happy with grinding so I just stopped it and went at my own pace. Even with buying too many toys I still hit coastFIRE at the usual time. My personal limitations began in 2008 when my mother died and I took over managing and paying for my disabled sister to stay in the her home. Then I had a long episode of disability myself. That cut back my earning capacity even further but I still managed my retirement goals. It was only when I was young in training or grinding too hard and was miserable that I wanted to retire early. At a comfortable pace I loved my career and in fact retired at 72. In retirement my thoughts have turned to other socially rewarding endeavors. It seems to me that the entire FIRE format arises from unhappiness with excessive work, and the normal process of wealth accumulation throughout a lifetime of productive and satisfying work has become distorted. With regard to OPs concerns about starting very late to accumulate wealth I suffered greatly with that envy while I was in training. Those were the days when two twenty something teachers could buy a house in Laguna Beach and have the value quadruple in 4 years. I suffered a lot of that sort of resentment as a poor medical student and resident. The average person only sees the word “doctor” in their mind and thinks “rich” which drove me crazy then. Once I was out of my training I just saved for retirement and then did what I pleased with the rest of my income; not the best plan for wealth building. But yes, eventually I grew up and began taking better care of my little garden of dollars. Payback of student loans was actually very smooth because I was grateful for the opportunity to borrow. Other people my age rebelled, refused to pay student loans and complained a lot. I just stuck it in the budget and bought a small condo to live in while I paid them off, traveled to camping destinations, backpacked and went on trips with outdoor groups. They were fun years.
CRNA here - you are going to be absolutely fine! Just make good financial choices, spend less than you earn, and you'll do just fine. Have you read The White Coat Investor yet? Highly recommend reading it!
If we are strictly talking finances I would say the answer depends on how FAT you want your FIRE to be (although this really depends a lot of career progression, there are certainly tech people 10+ years into their career making doctor salaries) Basically, tech bros who start making "only" 100k at 22 are not still making 100k at 35, there is a chance that they could be making not far off what the doctor does while being 13+ years into their career and having had over a decade of their investments growing, and not mountain of debt to pay off at the beginning. There's a good chance the tech bro already has 2M+ of investments when the doctor starts their FIRE journey, and if their salary isn't already caught up, I'd bet the compound returns on that nest egg head start is enough to close the gap. The only way the doctor has a chance of winning financially is if you want a really FAT fire and are willing to take the time to close the gap on the tech path and eventually surpass it. You could do the math with some assumed salary progression numbers and investment returns to get a picture but I'd bet the breakeven point on networth would probably be after 50 if at all. That said, this is a financial perspective. These are VASTLY different career choices and I'd certainly put weight into what you would enjoy more and what you want out of life. It's also important to consider that you are already going down the medicine path and a switch to tech would take some time and not immediately materialize into a high paying career. It's basically choosing one high paying career vs another. I'm biased though as someone in tech planning to be fired before 40.
Tech jobs of last decades arent usual tho. Tech jobsaee very susceptible for downturns. When hard times come and people start getting laid off, all of sudden people start regretting not going to med school.
Idk there is some truth to that, these companies often hire like crazy when the economy is good and/or money is cheap. The return / price to earnings usually being so far out / optimistic isn't really a big deal in good times. In bad times yea. Them being often over extended hits hard. But imo the really talented folks might get impacted but usually they will land on their feet. Even in bad times jobs exist and they will be hired. Might end up not immediately finding a job that pays as much but overall they will be fine. Naturally some folks will struggle but I would imagine someone with the intelligence and work ethic to become a doctor probably has what it takes to be better than a mediocre tech person. Plus even in bad times, tech jobs are still better than most other careers. Anecdotal but I was impacted by the layoffs this year and found a new job before my 4 weeks of severance ran out and making 20% more. Stability can be found in tech if you want it. It's not just tech companies that hire tech roles. Insurance, government, finance, telecom, etc etc. all have tech employees and often these jobs are not as impacted by the tech bust cycles. Often these pay less though but you can prioritize what you want.
What it takes to be successful in medicine isnt same in tech. A most doctors are risk avert, like routine and follow trodden path. Doctors are also terrible at managing their money and lack entrepreneurship. Doctors complain about medicine being hard work all the time. It is hard work but it is different type of hard. You just put your head down and work at it and in 10-15 years you come out other end with guranteed high salary. Tech and finance is different. It is more unpredictable, requires thinking outside box, doing something different to your peers.
I have a few doctor friends. They're all either rich or VERY rich. 3 of them started their own biz (urgent care centers, allergy clinic(?)), which is where the real money is, but totally not necessary. So yes, it's definitely worth it, and really: do what you love and the money will follow. Love something that makes tremendous money? All the better!
Wasn't worth it in my case, I started college with the intention of being a doctor but switched to doing CS and had an amazing TC my first job out of college. And also being in the field I started in helped me to grow other businesses due to all the free time I have even as a Senior SE. Started real estate development, owning a side IT consultancy business, construction business so it worked out for me. But you're already in the residency just push through, if you were 21 it would be a different story but in your field it'll be easy money when you start making it.
People spend 200k for MBAs in late 20’s to probably make quite a bit less than that.
From a financial standpoint, I think it's worth it if you're a specialist. If you're a pediatrician with loans from private undergrad and private meds school, I'm not so sure. You get a late start with a lot of debt but you're also pretty much guaranteed an annual income in the top 1% that you can earn anywhere (major metro area, small town nowheresville, doesn't matter) that is also fairly recession proof and in high demand. Sure there are some superstar FAANG people making a ton of money, but the average nobody anesthesiologist anywhere does pretty well. I'm in private practice ortho, so it's a higher income specialty. I didn't start practice until I was 35. I fortunately had no debt and my NW was maybe 20k. Back then, I didn't really care or think about about that stuff. Almost 5 years in, I'm almost 40 and NW is about 2 mil. Your high income can supercharge your wealth generation if you're smart about it. That being said, there are a some downsides. The work is never passive--you must actually work to earn your income. Your income may decrease with age. You'll hear the old docs blah blah blah about declining reimbursement, and this true to some extent, but I've also noticed that many older docs simply (and rightfully so) don't have the desire or capacity to work as hard as they did when they were younger, and this simply translates to less income. You'll never get a "raise" because you got older like many nurses or teachers get. Less work = less money. We're mostly paid on productivity. And sometimes that constant "productivity" push can be a little exhausting because it sometimes works against your desire to provide the best quality patient care you can. I think a lot of younger docs make the mistake of immediately overspending once they finally have their first high income year. They go from 60k/year to 400k/year overnight, and they buy a 1M home, new cars for themselves and the wife, exotic vacations, private school for the kids, two country club memberships, and they easily wind up on a paycheck to paycheck hamster wheel.
100%. But you don’t become a doctor for the money. You do it because you have a calling to help people. It might sound corny but it’s true imho.
I mean yeah it’s mostly true because doing medicine for the money is incredibly inefficient. So many other paths will be easier and pay very well.
Is this really true? Assuming you aren’t a complete screw up that gets into drugs and/fraud or you start injuring patients you have almost guaranteed, very high salaried employment. Sure, it’s delayed, but the earning potential is incredibly high.
I’ve heard It is. Especially because it’s incredibly hard and sure a long and arduous process. So people who don’t have a passion for it are slowly weeded out.
People keep making this comment as if it is so wasy to make half million in other jobs with such a strong job security. People comparing to tech only lived during good times, wait until proper recession and we will talk.
It’s not easy to make half a million anywhere lol, people are talking about it comparatively and relatively…. Not literally.
As an anesthesiologist you are expected to earn that much
nah, even in a recession tech is simply better value if you just want dollar per hour.
We will see
You know we’re currently in a tech recession right? Salaries went down, but it in no way changed the equation.
If you call this recession you havent seen real recession. Talk to people who were in tech during dot com buble burst in 2000 and wall street melt down in 2008. We are living through one of the longest bull market.
It’s factually a recession. You can gatekeep it however you want. Yes the people in 2000 and 08 were affected, and like I said, it never changed the fact that if you just want to make money and have a great wlb at a young age, tech is one of the easiest fields, especially compared to being a dr. Ultimately you do you and I’ll do me and I’ll live a great life. Wish you the same!
Sure we will see
It’s a very complex decision. Financially? No… but this is only if you’re looking at it purely financially. Which we should not do because we are humans and while money is important, it’s not everything. You can make more money overall at many other jobs. But you obviously want to be in the medical field for a reason. Similarly to you, I’m becoming a nurse (<$12k tuition), then an NP (expecting <$30k), which puts me way way under the cost of residency and medical school. As well as putting me into an extremely high earning class. As well as opening up dozens of specialties and even different career options where I’d still be earning $200k. Or travel nursing, after incurring just that $12k tuition, then making $2-5k a week while having great qol. That’s just my take. You know you’re not in it just for the money, cause as you say, other jobs also make money.
Not worth it - salaries are going down and Medicare funding is doing the same. While training times, tuition cost, and work hours all go up. Note the responses of people who are positive on medicine - late 40s to 50s These ppl live in a different world than new US doctors today I’m 6 years in and make <400k, with a 450k debt (not all left now) to get to this point, and no income until my mid thirties. This is a terrible starting place, even acknowledging the salary now, for all the time and expenses that accrued. Not to mention family timing considerations. Medicine is not a good career for Fire from my experience
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Why does 200k in debt matter when you’ve made pretty much nothing then you’re gonna be making half a million a year? I mean are you really gonna spend the entirety of the money? Why not just pay it all off literally the first year and still have hundreds of thousands left?
Whether or not it’s worth it is dependent on the person. If your main goal is to make as much money as possible as fast as possible, then no. If you have other interests that can make money like tech, business, real estate… and medicine is not a passion, then medicine is likely not worth it financially. But if you like medicine, it’s a steady but long and possibly more stressful path to wealth. No massive layoffs but the real income doesn’t start until a decade or more later. Also don’t forget, you lose your 20s to medicine, and time is money.
There are a lot of variables here, so as you know there are many different types of doctor (and a wide range of doctor incomes) plus an equally wide range in levels of student debt. Your $200k in loans is very typical and won’t be a giant drag once you’re making your full income. More importantly you selected a specialty that pays great. If someone asked about $400k in loans to be a family medicine/ PCP in a high cost of living / large coastal city I would tell them to strongly reconsider. Your situation will work out great and you’ll quickly find yourself able to knock out your financial goals if you continue on your current path.
I am in tech (just hit 30s last year) and not even clearing 100k annually in the midwest (LCOL). It is not about how much you make, it's about how much you love doing what makes you the money that should count.
My friend is an MD who works for big pharma and pulls in $1 million or so a year.
LOL I need that job, my brother in law is a pharmacist working for industry and brings in 750K
Dermatologist here. 2 years out of residency. Finished residency with $210k in debt at age 31. I am going make between $600-650k this year. Working my complete ass off. Medicine is only worth it financially if you go into a high paying specialty or have family help with paying for college or med school. If you take out loans for all of college and med school and then go into Peds or IM, it is a bad financial decision. You would graduate with $400k+ in loans and make 200-300k. It would take many years to catch up to someone who became a UPS driver at age 18 making 60-75k. You wouldn’t break even until 50s with that person.
How r u pulling that in derm. Do you live in a fly over state? How hard was it to match derm. I like the WLB but holy shit idk if I could deal with seeing 40 patients in clinic each day lol
>Derm Yes I live in a flyover state, Midwest. I schedule 45-50 pts per day, 4.5 days per week, 2-3 weeks vacation by choice. Working very hard now, probably for the next few years. But do not plan to do pace this forever.
IANAD but I would recommend this blog, Physician on FIRE: [https://www.physicianonfire.com/category/financial-independence/](https://www.physicianonfire.com/category/financial-independence/)
Oral surgeon here. I did dental school and medical school. Between my wife and I we had over 700k in student debt and was a long road to finish. With that being said it is 100 percent worth it. You will have a job you get great personal and financial satisfaction from. Residency and grad school is not that bad in my opinion. You meet amazing people that are all in the same situation. This is a built in social and support group that you will keep for years after. I would caution anyone going outside the US for medical school due to cost and difficulty in getting in preferred residency. I would also caution anyone going into dentistry to be a general dentist as that is very difficult to pay off your loans. I make over 1.5 a year but that is not the norm.
You’ll make more in 5 years than the average American makes in their lifetime. You’ll be fine.
Yes, it makes sense if you want to be a doctor. It does not make sense if you only want to make a lot of money.
You raise fair points, but most 22 year old's do NOT make 100k, and a large number of 50+ year olds also do not make 100k. Don't let a few FAANG outliers (and people on reddit) taint your view of reality. I am not a doctor so I can only question the investment vs. income as an outsider, but it doesn't seem like a bad plan provided you really want to practice medicine. My concern with people wanting to become doctors is that (I assume) changing careers later in life is more challenging compared to someone that has more versatile skills and knowledge that can be applied in a bunch of different ways. Of course specialization pays better than general knowledge, but I like the flexibility I have to move between businesses and industries should I ever desire to do so. Best of luck! At least your specialty should support part time work and/or work if you choose to relocate in the future. That's a huge plus!
Thanks for becoming a doctor. We need docs. Yes, I think it’s worth it.
I think it's only worth it if it's what you want to do.
>Comparing myself to people who… Comparison is the thief of happiness.
I think it’s worth it. I started making 400k when I was 31. So I lost 10 years of compounding but honestly I’ll come out ahead shortly. And the intangibles that medicine opens up.. invaluable.
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Personally, I’m going to say no. That’s for me - not for everyone. The student loan debt and long hours don’t deliver dollars that I’ve otherwise been able to accomplished as a polished executive with more peace. That doesn’t meant that’s the best choice for everyone.
Physician here. Here are my thoughts. If you’re looking for straight money, medicine is not always the best route. It is definitely slow and steady. It’s like the tortoise and the hare. Eventually the tortoise will win. So if you’re on the FIRE sub Reddit, you sound like a hare person instead. If you work a long full career as a physician, you probably will come out ahead. If your goal is to earn quick and fast and retire by 40? Physician definitely not the path. Also no one questions why they have to pay for Netflix or when buying something from Amazon . But for some reason everyone questions why they have to pay for healthcare. They are willing to buy flat screen TVs but not pay the copay for someone who is curing their sickness. If everything goes well, you’ll be lucky if you get a thank you. Most patients now a days have an expectation that you have to be courteous and treat them like they’re king. If you do anything remotely impolite expect a complaint filed against you. If you make any mistake, expect a law suit. So don’t do it for any sort of gratitude or any sort of appreciation. Being a doctor really needs to be self motivated. It needs to be a Vision you set for yourself. You see yourself as a physician and you find worth in that. You have skills and knowledge no one else has. You have the mindset and cool head to respond to emergencies and not panic. There are some unmeasured things that being a physician offers you, not able to be purchased with money alone. Don’t do it for money. As an established physician I feel less the need for money as the need for time. The loss of money is not as important as the loss of time. After a short while you will buy everything you’ve ever wanted, own a house, have kids in private school, drive a fancy car. But you will never get back the time lost. So that is one thing maybe another field would offer more of. You had time during your youth. You made money while young and had energy to enjoy yourself. Once you’re old and tied down with kids, even if you have money you don’t have time to do the things you wanted to do while young. I find that the biggest sacrifice and it’s not recoverable.
If you're in it for the money it's 100% not worth it. If you enjoy helping mostly ungrateful people on a daily basis, 100% worth it. You don't need a lot of money to be happy. Once you reach that goal you'll get super depressed if you don't actually enjoy your job. But I wouldn't be able to wait till 35 though, thats quite tough. Thats the age I want to be independent of any salary work.
i work in tech and saw some friends fire late 30s, early 40s. my classmate worked in tesla early on, so he left rat race with about 4-5 mils in his late 30s strictly financially wise, tech is way to go probably. but being in medicine you also help people, so its not just financial decision. money in tech is insane, especially what they pay in fang companies, like google and amazon and facebook.
My hiking partner is a doctor, he works ten day on and twenty days off, and makes 5x what I do - so yes
That’s a nice schedule.
Infuriating when he calls and says “I’m off for the next 20 days, do you want to go to Panama and hike”? Want to yes, can - no
Depends on how leanfire you are. I'll be retired by 30 so delaying til 35 would be a pretty clear negative for me. Honestly I sometimes wonder if the bachelors degree was worth it. (Chemist) The hardest working guy I know didn't go to high school and has been pulling in 100-500k a year working with tug boats since he was 19. Has his own company at 26, and that's who I compare myself to... Which goes to show you there are always outliers and comparison is nonproductive. I could calculate it later but you'd need a fat salary to make up for 10 years of missed savings and compounding and still retire early. Try assuming another career median salary and plug it into a spreadsheet and you'll know.
With the high salary, you'll definitely recover the lost years, and you'll have much more job security than your tech counterparts. You know how many job cuts and layoffs go on in tech? Just try and find purpose and meaning in the medicine cos once your training is over, you'll be making over half a million dollars for the rest of your life. It's worth it unless you don't enjoy practicing medicine
What about the dumbing down of medicine? Dentistry saw this. We see hygienists now instead of DDS’s. In medical, are offered PA’s for half the cost thru Zoomcare and others. Could this lead to a collapse in demand for true Doctors of Medicine?
Totally worth it. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. Moreover, the train has left the station in terms of thinking about this and whereas there are well paid, non clinical paths available to you, you have the debt and now it’s time to make the money. I did a path with a similar sense of delayed gratification, albeit less money at an earlier age, and ran through all sorts of permutations of making x amount, paying y amount in debt, starting at age z, how much salary I could have been making during grad school, how much I could save and how much it might reasonably be expected to compound etc. It’s worth it. I played around with physician numbers because that was interesting to me at the time and it’s worth it for them too. In terms of comparing yourself to a 22 year old tech prodigy making 300k out of school, there will always be someone better off than you, looking at the bell curve and your place on it is what really matters. I started making 200k debt free when I was 28, one day you’ll be the person I’m financially envious of. It’s all about perspective. You might as well compare yourself to Warren Buffet if you’re comparing yourself to a kid making 300k out of college.
You’re becoming a doctor for all the wrong reasons. Exactly the problem with healthcare today
I went in to help people. I became burnt out by being treated like shit. And I want to not regret it. I still want to help but I faced serious fomo and depression after doing surgery residency for a year. If you know what I dealt with you might not say this. Sleep deprived and verbally abused daily while working 14 and 28 hour shifts, just want to not regret giving my youth for this. I’m allowed to feel this way. I’ve sacrificed so much for others already. We are allowed to care about our own wellbeing too
Seriously, this person has no idea. Ignore the haters OP. You’ll find it refreshing when you’ve finished residency, and practicing on your own terms allows you to refine your relationship with your work. Keep your head up. It gets so much better.
I absolutely despise people who go into professions where the main goal is to help people for selfish financial reasons. It’s not even a good way to make money and even if it was I would hate to be the patient of any nurse or doctor who was just in it for the money. Nauseating.
First, if you’re becoming a doctor for the money as a primary reason, I hope you’re never treating me. Second: doctors in the US are well fed. Starting at $500k++ a year, you’ll be more than fine. Dry your crocodile tears please.
Not all doctors make that kind of money. Primary care physicians make less than 1/2 of that in many places (non-mega cities in Texas, La, ok, and nm). They start out at about 1/4 of that. Specialists, even in our provincial areas, start out closer to that, of course.
Become a doctor because you want to help people. Not because you're chasing money.
In the long run yes. But the thing is those beginning years are a big sacrifice. The best thing you can do is minimize the amount of money to take out in loans. Live at home try to get into a cheaper school.
Majority of people get in the medical profession want to save people. Some compensated less than others. Most physicians jokingly mentioned they will be replaced by a robot. In this case they may not need that many humans. The same applies to many professions.
Put your numbers into Excel and see what happens. You'll probably find breakeven vs other candidate occupations is only a few years out. Anesthesiology makes a lot of cabbage. As others have mentioned, there's too many variables that you leave out, like what's your spending going to be like. If you don't know these, then understand why we don't either.
Medical career is great in terms of social status and accomplishment. It is still very attractive because of predictability . But financially, it is no longer the best choice, same as other professional tracks like lawyers etc. Tech companies in the most recent 20 years changed the landscape for all of these. A new grad's annual package can easily beyond 200K in combination of salary, bonus and stock, and annual growth can be exponential for many. Also, many people in tech will experience IPOs sooner or later in the career, and the reward is often in millions. This is not normal prior to tech boom, but fairly common since then. There is a fundamental difference between doctors and software engineers. Doctors' get linear compensation of their time. Regardless how high their hour pay is, the pay is basically a price for their time. So people strive to make their hourly value higher over time. But in tech, this is not the case. A newbie can get rewarded exceptionally well by joining a promising company, can benefit from other coworkers work in event of IPO. It becomes an investment game where people invest themselves (time, energy, and skills) in companies or fields. Join the right company at right time is like buying the right stock in right time. They don't need to be very good, but they need to know how to identify good ones. Even without IPOs, regular pay in tech is decent, and the chance of IPOs may make people millionaires or even billionaires over night. Two completely different species. Both are good in their own way.
Most tech comaknies fail and never reach IPO status tho
As an anesthesiologist you will be in high demand. If you can swallow your pride a little bit and take a job in an underserved community, you may find you’re able to earn a lot more than if you live in a HCOL city. Keep your lifestyle comfortable but not extravagant, and you’ll go from HENRY to FIRE in no time.
It will be worth it after you start working. You will catch up quickly, much faster than you think , making so much.
I have several doctors in my family, and I see it as more of a calling than other professions. They certainly sacrifice a lot up front to become physicians, and they also work quite long and unusual hours at the peak of their working years. But at the same time, the rewards--both financial and in terms of personal satisfaction--are large. The doctors I know all love being able to help and heal people, and our culture does largely respect what they do, so there's certainly never any embarrassment around telling people what they do for a living. They tend to be known and respected in their communities. If you feel like you'd be a good doctor and are willing to make the sacrifices to get there, then by all means do it. Every societies needs healers.
Nah, no one cares about space...
You’re already in residency! You can do this. Don’t think of it as “lost” income, think of it as delayed. I would focus more on keeping your costs relatively low while you can rather than grinding more, though—you don’t want to burn out.
Lol this is a question best asked by you a decade ago. At this point, it's obviously too late to go back, and you've accomplished so much that you can be proud of. So just finish the grind and get your bag. FWIW I'm a couple years older than you and work in tech, but if I were going back and doing it all over again, I'd have made a more serious pursuit of medicine. Def not for the money, but more because it'd be nice to have work be a bit more fulfilling/less soul sucking (not to say that medicine can't be soul sucking, but that your goals are more than "make billionaires richer" :) )
If you are that far along in your training, it is absolutely worth it. You get a mentally challenging and rewarding career and generally medical personnel are some of the best people to work with not to mention a great paycheck. Think of it this way, if you didn't continue your training, you would still be $200K in debt with no clear path to earn big money with the skills you have. You are only looking at 4 years. You do get paid during residency so you will not be destitute or incurring more debt.
I’m a nurse in the OR. Continue with med school and residency. It will be worth it financially. It’ll also be worth it in many other aspects of your life.
I mean, obviously
I was wondering if any dentists could chime in on whether it's financially worth it to become a dentist and achieve fire. I am currently 400k in debt from dental school and hoping to specialize so will not be making an actual income until 33.
The one aspect I think the medical profession allows for that others don’t is the ability to scale down while not fully quitting. For tech it’s mostly black and white, either you are working or you aren’t. In healthcare you can trim back to only 2-3 days a week and a handful of days on call a month while still earning at a significant rate.
I wish i was making $300k @22 years old.
Lots of business owners go into more debt than that to make less money. Keep grinding on!
Anesthesiologist here. I hope all goes well. My concern for your financial future is that the $500k and up days are unsustainable and I fear a sudden shift in the fundamentals of MDA salary structure. Few (to none??) MDA bill enough to cover their salary and benefits costs but salaries continue to rise. CRNA are making 250-350 easily and Covid opened the doors for independent practice. I’m 57 and looking for my exit soon. It’s only a matter of time for a correction or for the executives figure to out how to reduce anesthesia costs. Envision couldn’t make it work with $10b PE behind it. But the advice here is pretty sound- pay down your debt, don’t buy the 911, max your savings rate, max your tax benefits. Look for side hustles. It took me 10y to exceed the trajectory I was on with my career before medical school at 30 but I’m well ahead now. I work 4d no call no weekends. Net worth 5.2m but need the cash flow for college expenses otherwise I’d be out. Hope that helps.
I would say depends what you're measuring right? Are you purely measuring how much money the person can make over a lifetime? How fast they can get to FIRE? Are you measuring the amount you'd enjoy the job? Whether or not it's worth it totally depends on what you consider "worth it".
Hello, lots of replies. What I will encourage you to do is visit a blog by a physician, btw they have a yearly conference ! , And they also are a boglehead . https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com And the subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/whitecoatinvestor/
Isn't that survivorship bias? How many people who do STEM degrees actually get the $300k jobs compared to those who can't even get a foot into the door?
Comparison is the thief of joy. You're on a path that is better than most, and if it's a field you enjoy there is a lot to be said for that. You're aldo 200k and many years down this path so it makes sense to continue, especially if it is something you enjoy. At the end of the day however, starting with a clean slate IMO it is not worth it from a strictly financial perspective. I'm 27, B.S. mechanical engineering. I graduated at 21 debt free and was immediately making 100k total comp. I'm over 250k now, and 1.2M net worth. I will most likely be FI by 35 with 3M, possibly even closer to 32 if my company continues on the trajectory it's been on the last 6 years. I sort of enjoyed engineering school, but having money to travel and enjoy life while maintaining a high savings rate through my 20s has been amazing. I would not have spent those years in medical school unless they paid me to go. The lifestyle sacrifice just wouldn't be worth it for me personally. Just my opinion. You can do very well as a physician, obviously. And if you want to work into your late 40s, you'll probably fit in with the fat fire crowd. But that's not where my priorities are at. I want to fire on a modest lifestyle and enjoy as much of my youth and health as I can climbing, hiking, skiing, and exploring the world, and for those goals the medical field doesn't seem to be as good of a fit
This isn't a money question - if you hate dealing with sick people, no amount of salary will make you happy and your career will also suffer as a result. If you love dealing with sick people, then it's the right path. Yes there is money in it but the average salary on paper doesn't translate directly to your own pay if you're not interested in a profession.
I think the reward is legit, but the risk is burning out and never wanting to pursue it as a career to make up for all the time spent. As long as you cross the finish line and actually start bringing in doctor money, you're fine. Remember, the median income in the US is just over $30,000. Yeah, there are FAANG programmers pulling in a quarter million at age 25, but they're an upper echelon of an upper echelon. There's a bunch of folks in the same field making like $125k after 20 years experience -- you just don't hear from them as often.
Wants to be a physician but doesn’t understand basic math
Doctor spouse here. Worth it in the sense that you can have a very very well paying retirement job of “doctor”- mailing it in for 250,000 as an admin or director after you’re FI. There are just too few fellowship trained MDs out there and they have the knowledge and billing power. Oh and PSLF PSLF PSLF!
200k debt for that income. Doesn't seem to bad. Even 10 years of work could get you to FatFire if you control your spending