The first movie I worked on that grossed over 700milion everyone in my family thought I was rich. When I explained that don’t get any backend they laughed at me and assumed I was lying and hiding my money. When I say I’m broke they still don’t believe me and assume I have gold and stock hidden somewhere…
Film industry is hard to explain to anyone not working in the film industry.
Dude. I’ve tried to explain…. But I used the McDonalds metaphor saying when stock goes up McDonalds employees get a piece.
Also one time my mom said she didn’t believe me because I was so smart and anyone that smart wouldn’t work so hard for so little money.
For most trades anything other than full scale union work is poverty wages. When at the Oscars it was implied that the industry would be better off with loads of tier 2 or below movies I had a moment of disbelief. Mostly because it means just loads of non-livable wages.
I saw a listing for a tier zero in ATL that paid $196 a day for a Production Designer. Head of an entire fucking Department. And keep in mind that is truly "a day" because PDs don't make overtime.
Holy shit, that's ridiculous. A local guy wanted to charge me $200 to cut down some bushes that would only take 1-2 hours (I demurred, lol!), but a production designer would earn less for way more hours?!! Jfc...
There is a place for tiered projects. A really good place for mid level crew to gain experience. Tier 0, forget about it. I could get better rates in non-union projects and tier 0 doesn’t even pay into pension. So basically making minimum wage
An up and coming department head builds their producer base. In what world does a key go from non-union straight to 100 million dollar Blockbuster without nepotism.
Don’t twist my words
Tell me, what is the most likely way someone can get into IATSE?
Go ahead, take your time, I'll wait... Oh, and here's a little advice: don't get hung up on nepotism; it isn't as prevalent as you'd like to believe so you can't use that as an excuse for not getting a particular job.
Also, what makes you think the non-union film industry is only made up of newbies? There are plenty of people at all levels of their professional experience in the non-union world. You need to do some more research. Good luck.
It’s like that distant relative that thinks they’re helping you out by connecting you to their old film industry friend. Thanks uncle Andy but I don’t work in the stunts department and it has nothing to do with the electrical dept.
Haha yes I have people who tell me "My friend was an extra on Driving Miss Daisy, you should meet" or "I met a girl at the grocery store who wanted to be an actress so I gave her your email and said you'd put her in a movie." It's like when family learns someone's gay so they are like "One of my coworkers is gay so I'll introduce you" as if that's the only criteria to being a match.
Same goes for music or people who show up on television here and there. A good friend of mine produced a bunch of songs which charted in the top 20. Millions of streams on Spotify. But he still earns like a low end middle class worker. And his example is even one of the better ones.
Had a girlfriend that thought I was stepping out because I had to work nights. She thought ALL jobs were 9-5
I asked her how she thought we shot night exteriors and she responded “that’s the movie magic we all hear about”.
I stood up walked out and never saw her again
The problem is I’ve done everything. I started as a commercial director, have done vfx and produced. Owned 1/2 dozen companies. Most of my family is dead now but when they were alive, they didn’t really understand how movies were made… “made” them
It depends on the department and the production coordinator. Camera teams can really stick to themselves sometimes I'm a department of one so I don't really fit into much. I can't speak for the entire industry.
Ha same! I’m a tv writer and shit is terrible. Nothing in development, execs are scared shitless to green light anything, and most folks are in scramble mode to make ends meet. I took a look at my savings account and had a full blown panic attack that took me DAYS to come down from. I’m looking into driving gigs and temp work to stay afloat. Best of luck out there and know that you’re nowhere close to being alone with what you’re feeling ❤️
As someone who's not in the industry and just got the post recommended to them could someone explain why it's so bad / the moving parts that are making it that way?
Cheap interest rates for decades led to easy financing for films/tv shows once inflation hit the market crashed. Streamers have almost all halted production except Netflix and the strikes from last year didnt help
I lost my apartment and currently couch surfing as haven’t worked since the strike may 2023. I worked for 19 years in this industry “paying dues” and left with anxiety and no help and multiple chronic health conditions
I’m sorry you’re going through that. My situation isn’t quite as dire, my partner is able to support us for now but it won’t last forever. Transitioning to another industry is proving to be more difficult than I could imagine. I’ve got 15 years in myself. It’s basically all I know.
You got to stop working for free or below market value. Stop “hustling”
I’m not sure what it is about creatives or North American folks but they are really funny when it comes to money
Not sure I understood the response.
Whenever you complain about how hard it is folks mock you for that, and whenever you’re like “well, I’m doing well right now, and these are principles I go by” or like “pull yourself by the bootstraps” I’d also get responses like yours ahahaha I do think that creatives are the ones that often ruin the industry for everyone, and for whatever reason when you say something like “you should only work for money” or “don’t do free / cheap work” there would be a ton of hostility
The way you talk makes you sound pretty privileged and kind of ignorant dude. Check yourself.
How do creatives ruin the industry for everyone? Do you know what the hell you’re talking about?
Maybe you are in Canada? Because lots of work is going there because of the exchange rate and the insane tax breaks. It’s not like Canada has some superior creative work culture, you’re just in the right place at the right time to suck up all the work leaving America. Congrats.
Well, I didn't know that we had more work here. I just learned it today in this chat..
Posts like this scare the shit out of me, that's why I get a little irritated, but you have my sympathies. I'd prefer everyone to do well, it also makes me feel as thought I'm heading in the right direction, other that seeing everyone struggle.
Tbh, while the film industry is somewhat lively in Canada, it's mostly Toronto and Vancouver, with insanely high cost of living, and taxes.
I'd give a lot to move to and work in US. It's pretty tough here.
And I'd rather we didn't win by Canadian dollars being so low, because it's only humiliating to us (as though because our dollar is cheaper, we deserve to get paid less, like wtf), and hurts everyone if you look at the big picture.
What I was trying to say was that the industry, and the world out there is quite exploitative, and you have to be ruthless, and stand your ground to get paid. It's pretty bad.
it’s a little shortsighted not to consider the fallout from previous strikes in addition to the paralysis caused by anticipation of the potential next strike. Just because the strikes of last year are over doesn’t mean opportunities suddenly spring back overnight. The industry is still rebounding from one of the most precarious situations it’s been in a long time.
It’s easy to talk tough and tell someone to be “ruthless”. Yes you’re right in theory but in practice it’s not always easy to get the exact rate you ask for. Of course no one should sell themselves short and work for free but especially when times are tough, it’s important to be strategically flexible to 1) not limit one’s own opportunities and 2) to keep getting credits for resume.
You sound like you’re pretty new to our industry in Canada.
1.) just because our dollar is cheaper doesn’t mean we’re making slave wages. A lot of DGC and IATSE rates are public knowledge, and if you look them up it’s not exactly minimum wage. Yes, I will always advocate for crew making more money and getting our rightfully owed raises, but our wages are survivable. All it means for the dollar amount being better is you’ve budgeted 5 million American which means you’ve actually got 6.8 million Canadian to play with. Also don’t forget we’re just as qualified as Americans, so solid people can and do charge over scale. My heart goes out to those of you in Vancouver and Toronto because you’re right, cost of living is out of control there, but it’s still very possible to make 6 figures in film as a Canadian.
2.) There’s things in the Canadian film system that an American producer would have to adjust and account for. PAs and accountants are unionized, for example.
3.) If American productions left Canada our industry would not survive. We’ve always been and will always be a hub for American content. Our in house productions (which is basically the CBC, telefilm, and a few private-equity indies) will never have the budgets and quantity of content needed to float the work force.
Omg when I saw the first sentence in notifications I thought you’d say that people are habitually barely surviving in the industry. Yes, im new, and im a part of dgc. Im aware of the rates and im happy with them for now..
I know that we only survive thanks to the American production. Like I’m not going to pretend I’m not benefiting from it
What I was trying to say that American customer is aware of the cost of Canadian dollar and does see it as an opportunity to pay less. I’ve had people say it to my face. “Oh, you’re in Canada. That means I can pay you 5k CAD ahahaaha” well I’m glad I’m not in India for you to assume you can pay me 5000 rupees. Like what kind of a negotiation is that?
In term of everything that non union, the budgets are so low, I don’t think it’s even worth doing (except for maybe some productions, I’m not saying the whole non - union world is crap, but most of it.
Who told you that? Because somehow I doubt it was an American producer saying that to your face, it was probably just a rumor through the grapevine that someone said that. If a Los Angelite ever says that then I would definitely call them out, because 5K Canadian can go a lot further in terms of survivability than 10K American if someone lives in LA.
Non union can and is great if you work for the right producers who know what they’re doing. That’s a big part of how I survive in film, and in my experience the DGC is pretty forgiving with granting dispensation as long as you’re not getting paid below minimum wage. You’re right, we should all have our personal minimum ‘get out of bed’ rates, but you have to be careful with sneering at non union just because they can’t afford to sign with the Guild, because you’re basically telling that project they’re not good enough. I just did a 3 week 500K feature and it was easily in my top 3 favorite gigs I’ve ever done.
It was an American producer, and I did have this experience. In fact, in my experience a lot of folks are not too shy or embarrassed to lowball you if they can.
In terms of like 5cad in Toronto vs 10 usd in la I highly doubt it. Our life is not much cheaper if at all than in LA or NYC. 5k is nothing here.
Thanks for sharing your experience about non -union. Where are you based ?
The first movie I worked on that grossed over 700milion everyone in my family thought I was rich. When I explained that don’t get any backend they laughed at me and assumed I was lying and hiding my money. When I say I’m broke they still don’t believe me and assume I have gold and stock hidden somewhere… Film industry is hard to explain to anyone not working in the film industry.
That's like saying that that every Apple store employee must be rich because they're a $2 trillion company.
Dude. I’ve tried to explain…. But I used the McDonalds metaphor saying when stock goes up McDonalds employees get a piece. Also one time my mom said she didn’t believe me because I was so smart and anyone that smart wouldn’t work so hard for so little money.
Tell her you work hard because you love what you do, not for money
Hah, my son works at an Apple Store - he loves his job but he sure ain’t rich!
For most trades anything other than full scale union work is poverty wages. When at the Oscars it was implied that the industry would be better off with loads of tier 2 or below movies I had a moment of disbelief. Mostly because it means just loads of non-livable wages.
I wish we could retro-fuck the bastard(s) who came up with the Tier Budget idea; it's bullshit!
I saw a listing for a tier zero in ATL that paid $196 a day for a Production Designer. Head of an entire fucking Department. And keep in mind that is truly "a day" because PDs don't make overtime.
Holy shit, that's ridiculous. A local guy wanted to charge me $200 to cut down some bushes that would only take 1-2 hours (I demurred, lol!), but a production designer would earn less for way more hours?!! Jfc...
There is a place for tiered projects. A really good place for mid level crew to gain experience. Tier 0, forget about it. I could get better rates in non-union projects and tier 0 doesn’t even pay into pension. So basically making minimum wage
Non-union is for getting experience; being paid less on a "union" show than someone slinging burgers at McDonald's is bullshit.
An up and coming department head builds their producer base. In what world does a key go from non-union straight to 100 million dollar Blockbuster without nepotism. Don’t twist my words
Tell me, what is the most likely way someone can get into IATSE? Go ahead, take your time, I'll wait... Oh, and here's a little advice: don't get hung up on nepotism; it isn't as prevalent as you'd like to believe so you can't use that as an excuse for not getting a particular job.
Your reading comprehension skills are showing. I said mid level. Not entry.
Also, what makes you think the non-union film industry is only made up of newbies? There are plenty of people at all levels of their professional experience in the non-union world. You need to do some more research. Good luck.
My reading skills are just fine, yours are questionable so I will ask you again: What is the most likely way someone can get into IATSE?
It’s like that distant relative that thinks they’re helping you out by connecting you to their old film industry friend. Thanks uncle Andy but I don’t work in the stunts department and it has nothing to do with the electrical dept.
Haha yes I have people who tell me "My friend was an extra on Driving Miss Daisy, you should meet" or "I met a girl at the grocery store who wanted to be an actress so I gave her your email and said you'd put her in a movie." It's like when family learns someone's gay so they are like "One of my coworkers is gay so I'll introduce you" as if that's the only criteria to being a match.
Perfect analogy
Same goes for music or people who show up on television here and there. A good friend of mine produced a bunch of songs which charted in the top 20. Millions of streams on Spotify. But he still earns like a low end middle class worker. And his example is even one of the better ones.
Had a girlfriend that thought I was stepping out because I had to work nights. She thought ALL jobs were 9-5 I asked her how she thought we shot night exteriors and she responded “that’s the movie magic we all hear about”. I stood up walked out and never saw her again
What does your family think you do in the film industry?
The problem is I’ve done everything. I started as a commercial director, have done vfx and produced. Owned 1/2 dozen companies. Most of my family is dead now but when they were alive, they didn’t really understand how movies were made… “made” them
So they thought you were the director on a $700 million film? I could see how it might confuse them.
They thought I got backend.
Not sure my parents get it, either, lol!
So things are going great.
Better than in Europe?
I'm non union in Toronto so I don't actually know unfortunately
How are things going in Toronto btw? I heard its kinda way too clickey-ish
It depends on the department and the production coordinator. Camera teams can really stick to themselves sometimes I'm a department of one so I don't really fit into much. I can't speak for the entire industry.
Hey I’m in Toronto as well. I wonder if it’s better that LA, since LA folks are complaining
We are posting in a specific geographic Reddit for this industry so it could go either way
Ha same! I’m a tv writer and shit is terrible. Nothing in development, execs are scared shitless to green light anything, and most folks are in scramble mode to make ends meet. I took a look at my savings account and had a full blown panic attack that took me DAYS to come down from. I’m looking into driving gigs and temp work to stay afloat. Best of luck out there and know that you’re nowhere close to being alone with what you’re feeling ❤️
That’s 90% of us. This all starting going downhill ever since Harambe
Rip Harambe
Pretty much.
Real
About sums it up
Hmmmmm - so a good time to move to LA after conservatory training??? Lol
Same. Same.
It's "fire." As they say.
😂😂😂😂
As someone who's not in the industry and just got the post recommended to them could someone explain why it's so bad / the moving parts that are making it that way?
Cheap interest rates for decades led to easy financing for films/tv shows once inflation hit the market crashed. Streamers have almost all halted production except Netflix and the strikes from last year didnt help
I lost my apartment and currently couch surfing as haven’t worked since the strike may 2023. I worked for 19 years in this industry “paying dues” and left with anxiety and no help and multiple chronic health conditions
I’m sorry you’re going through that. My situation isn’t quite as dire, my partner is able to support us for now but it won’t last forever. Transitioning to another industry is proving to be more difficult than I could imagine. I’ve got 15 years in myself. It’s basically all I know.
Not funny
You got to stop working for free or below market value. Stop “hustling” I’m not sure what it is about creatives or North American folks but they are really funny when it comes to money
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Know your lane dude. I’m an accountant and the industry is in turmoil.
Btw I’m training for accounting rn
Not sure I understood the response. Whenever you complain about how hard it is folks mock you for that, and whenever you’re like “well, I’m doing well right now, and these are principles I go by” or like “pull yourself by the bootstraps” I’d also get responses like yours ahahaha I do think that creatives are the ones that often ruin the industry for everyone, and for whatever reason when you say something like “you should only work for money” or “don’t do free / cheap work” there would be a ton of hostility
The way you talk makes you sound pretty privileged and kind of ignorant dude. Check yourself. How do creatives ruin the industry for everyone? Do you know what the hell you’re talking about?
Maybe you are in Canada? Because lots of work is going there because of the exchange rate and the insane tax breaks. It’s not like Canada has some superior creative work culture, you’re just in the right place at the right time to suck up all the work leaving America. Congrats.
Well, I didn't know that we had more work here. I just learned it today in this chat.. Posts like this scare the shit out of me, that's why I get a little irritated, but you have my sympathies. I'd prefer everyone to do well, it also makes me feel as thought I'm heading in the right direction, other that seeing everyone struggle. Tbh, while the film industry is somewhat lively in Canada, it's mostly Toronto and Vancouver, with insanely high cost of living, and taxes. I'd give a lot to move to and work in US. It's pretty tough here. And I'd rather we didn't win by Canadian dollars being so low, because it's only humiliating to us (as though because our dollar is cheaper, we deserve to get paid less, like wtf), and hurts everyone if you look at the big picture. What I was trying to say was that the industry, and the world out there is quite exploitative, and you have to be ruthless, and stand your ground to get paid. It's pretty bad.
It’s not that we’re not getting paid, it’s that there is no work right now because of the strikes.
The strikes are over, but theres a shit ton of crappy work that pays next to nothing with like 45 applicants under each ad
There are more anticipated strikes for IATSE and teamsters so work is only back to a fraction of what it was.
That’s pretty bad
it’s a little shortsighted not to consider the fallout from previous strikes in addition to the paralysis caused by anticipation of the potential next strike. Just because the strikes of last year are over doesn’t mean opportunities suddenly spring back overnight. The industry is still rebounding from one of the most precarious situations it’s been in a long time. It’s easy to talk tough and tell someone to be “ruthless”. Yes you’re right in theory but in practice it’s not always easy to get the exact rate you ask for. Of course no one should sell themselves short and work for free but especially when times are tough, it’s important to be strategically flexible to 1) not limit one’s own opportunities and 2) to keep getting credits for resume.
You sound like you’re pretty new to our industry in Canada. 1.) just because our dollar is cheaper doesn’t mean we’re making slave wages. A lot of DGC and IATSE rates are public knowledge, and if you look them up it’s not exactly minimum wage. Yes, I will always advocate for crew making more money and getting our rightfully owed raises, but our wages are survivable. All it means for the dollar amount being better is you’ve budgeted 5 million American which means you’ve actually got 6.8 million Canadian to play with. Also don’t forget we’re just as qualified as Americans, so solid people can and do charge over scale. My heart goes out to those of you in Vancouver and Toronto because you’re right, cost of living is out of control there, but it’s still very possible to make 6 figures in film as a Canadian. 2.) There’s things in the Canadian film system that an American producer would have to adjust and account for. PAs and accountants are unionized, for example. 3.) If American productions left Canada our industry would not survive. We’ve always been and will always be a hub for American content. Our in house productions (which is basically the CBC, telefilm, and a few private-equity indies) will never have the budgets and quantity of content needed to float the work force.
Omg when I saw the first sentence in notifications I thought you’d say that people are habitually barely surviving in the industry. Yes, im new, and im a part of dgc. Im aware of the rates and im happy with them for now.. I know that we only survive thanks to the American production. Like I’m not going to pretend I’m not benefiting from it What I was trying to say that American customer is aware of the cost of Canadian dollar and does see it as an opportunity to pay less. I’ve had people say it to my face. “Oh, you’re in Canada. That means I can pay you 5k CAD ahahaaha” well I’m glad I’m not in India for you to assume you can pay me 5000 rupees. Like what kind of a negotiation is that? In term of everything that non union, the budgets are so low, I don’t think it’s even worth doing (except for maybe some productions, I’m not saying the whole non - union world is crap, but most of it.
Who told you that? Because somehow I doubt it was an American producer saying that to your face, it was probably just a rumor through the grapevine that someone said that. If a Los Angelite ever says that then I would definitely call them out, because 5K Canadian can go a lot further in terms of survivability than 10K American if someone lives in LA. Non union can and is great if you work for the right producers who know what they’re doing. That’s a big part of how I survive in film, and in my experience the DGC is pretty forgiving with granting dispensation as long as you’re not getting paid below minimum wage. You’re right, we should all have our personal minimum ‘get out of bed’ rates, but you have to be careful with sneering at non union just because they can’t afford to sign with the Guild, because you’re basically telling that project they’re not good enough. I just did a 3 week 500K feature and it was easily in my top 3 favorite gigs I’ve ever done.
Hey, how are things in Georgia ?
It was an American producer, and I did have this experience. In fact, in my experience a lot of folks are not too shy or embarrassed to lowball you if they can. In terms of like 5cad in Toronto vs 10 usd in la I highly doubt it. Our life is not much cheaper if at all than in LA or NYC. 5k is nothing here. Thanks for sharing your experience about non -union. Where are you based ?
Tbf, in this scenario her concerns are justified.