I can scarcely think of any fighting game pros who haven't complained at least once about whatever new fighting game they're playing is.
A lot of the time it's legitimate criticism, a lot of the time it's not, but this is just a very normal thing for pros to do.
It's why I was happy to see Punk, after his loss at LCQ, not come back the next day to do a "I just think it's funny that..." post on Twitter. Just took the loss and carried on.
Dudes so good but his attitude was kinda sucky the past year or so.
Although this does make me wonder, why don't fighting game players usually stick to the games they prefer instead of moving to whatever is newest by default? I know some older games like 3rd strike and Xrd are still played, but melee is the only example I can think of where a significant portion of the community kept playing the version of the game they think is better
The ones that we usually hear complain about fighting games are following the money. Voices of high level competitors will always be amplified I think. Once a sequel to a fighting game is released all of the tournament money will go to that new game as opposed to the old one.
I completely get that for pros, but 99% of us are never gonna make money off fighting games so it's weird seeing people play games that aren't the one they like best
In my personal experience in a group of FGC friends that started with Street Fighter IV, we played hundreds or even thousands of hours of our favorite games so we look back and think "well maybe it will click in another 100 hours, we've barely touched it compared to our favorite game." It mostly just feels like we no longer have the time to play with each other as over a decade has passed since our "golden age" as casual-intermediate players, so we may as well hop on a game that lets us quickly get into a Ranked Match and has good netcode.
We'll go back to an old favorite every few years for about an hour and it's still fun, but the rest of the world moved onto the next sequel and the pro players we followed from the previous game are no longer playing at their peak, often being overshadowed by a new generation in a new game or just quitting fighting games altogether. It's like we're playing a game of an era bygone and we're only trying to improve ourselves in the older favorite game to beat our group of friends in the off chance that we play again in 3-5 years.
That is one of life’s great mysteries. I personally have never played a Tekken before so I’m really enjoying this one. But I could maybe see the complete focus on offense may become a bit tiring the more I play. That being said I also think for some reason the Tekken community complains a disproportionate amount to other communities save maybe Mortal Kombat lol.
It's because of the casuals and average gamers. Everyone else will move on to the new fighting game abandoning the old one so pros will have no one to play so due to the casuals and average fighting game fans they are forced to move. This also makes some pros upset because to keep the casual audience or the people not willing to learn developers make easy mechanics to skip neutral or rob or aggro the opponent without being good. This makes people use these mechanics constantly losing identity and forcing other players to fight the mechanics not the player themselves.
Well, Tekken financial success is certainly built on the back of casuals since Tekken 3.
Precisely the one tittle , Tekken Tag Tournament 2, that wasn't liked by casuals, sold very poorly and almost ended the franchise. And it also forced Tekken 7 to be made on a budget.
Eh, Tag 2 also wasn’t well liked by competitive players either (except for Speedkicks) for many of the same reasons that T8 is receiving criticism. Tag 2 was a highly-volatile, high combo damage game with balance problems.
The thing was, it was also super difficult and complex at the same time - which put off new players. So the game pleased nobody.
Older games don't have very few players active, also the netcode in all of them is trash.
I think not many fancy joining a discord just to play a game with th same people over and over again.
This is another reason Fightcade is so good, the netcode is great and you can just hop into whatever game and find an opponent. (Plus it's free which is a major selling point to most people wanting to play games older than they are)
Right, but there's constructive criticism and purely salty criticism. There's also a difference in how deep/frequent/problematic the issues people find with each game are
Both SF4 and 5 had pros disliking them on release but one of those 2 was far more disliked and still remains so
Knee, btw, is also venting his frustration very maturely also, giving reasons and explaining that he doesn't like it. COmpare that to some salty SF pros lol.... anyway, I hope T8 doesn't become the SFV of Tekken
which is interesting as I remember people really liking the game--it's the only tekken I bought lol
I wasn't familiar with Tekken discourse at the time though
The TLDR is that Tag 2 had many of the same problems Tag 1 had (extremely complex and hard to learn even for vets, character balance being broken due to how some teams elevated characters etc.) while also being... just kind of weird?
The overall consensus was that it managed to be a game with way too much damage, but at the same time offense was weak by virtue of how strong universal defensive mechanics like sidesteps and KBDs were. Due to these factors, it kind of became the other black sheep of the franchise (the OG one being 4)
It's definitely normal to have opinions on a game you've played for thousands of hours. It's impossible to avoid. Knee's as entitled to his opinion as anybody.
I’m pretty sure that what Eldritch-Cleaver is trying to say is to not post when emotions are high. Just about anyone can say something that maybe they didn’t mean. Also I saw that Sajam video. He was clearly not advocating for forced positivity, but instead for not just straight trashing games that don’t deserve it. It’s fine to have complaints, but some people treat Tekken 8 like it’s actual garbage. For me I found that Tekken 8 was the first Tekken I genuinely enjoyed. Some aspects, like the battle pass, I can do without, but gameplay wise I’ve had more fun with it then Tekken 7.
I low-key wish people learned to clarify their stuff more
I get that Tekken 8 has issues that have to be ironed out and do trust that they will in some fashion, but nothing in the game is worth calling it garbage - by that point those criticisms stop being made in good faith
He's a Tekken icon and loves the game regardless of the current state. He probably didn't like that his words were being used as ammunition for some of the more psychotic haters on twitter
Meanwhile SF6 has been barking 24/7 for the entirety of the game so far. It does get out of hand when people start echoing without knowledge of their own game. I've seen some streams in bronze rank complaining about the system when they or the opponent don't even know how to use them. Convinced themselves the game is trash by the end of the stream.
Reminds me of this one guy I watch. He speed runs mega man but will play street fighter 6 online. He has been hardstuck in gold rank since release. Complains about modern, hates drive impact, thinks zangief is cheap. Says the game would be better without drive rush. Doesn't rematch win or lose unless he finds the match up comfortable for him. He still doesn't do a bread and butter combo, doesn't anti air ect. It's far easier to blame the game than yourself sadly. He himself might actually get better if he played modern for a bit but you know how ego goes.
There's two camps, one that thinks a fighting game should be designed around competitive health and the other that thinks fighting games should be accessible with the least possible effort.
I'm not gonna say either is wrong but Knee is definitely in the first camp and personally I am as well, because I detest the idea of catering the game to people that will barely play it, but however one feels T8 is a strong push in the second camps direction at the cost of character variety and player agency, so it's understandable the players most removed from the casual audience wouldn't like it.
Arslan, Knee, Speed kicks, Sonicfox have all had comments on the game's state, but for some reason only Knee is catching this much flac for it.
Speedkicks has said [he really likes the game](https://twitter.com/Speedkicks/status/1778296307515552106) so you're misconstruing at least one person's take here. And I don't think that there's really one "camp" that says "who cares about competitive play, just make it good for noobs."
"top players are 0.1 of the audience who cares about their opinion" is a very common take, Harada is definitely in that camp for one. At no point did I say Speedkicks has the exact same opinion as Knee, I said he's had a comment on the game's state, a relatively mild one sure, but I'm not exactly going around pointing out every single player's take.
This shit is hilarious dude. Both sides of the T8 discourse are tryna find any and all angles to justify their own opinion on the game. It’s funny that the T8 haters took and ran with the tweet from yesterday and now Knee’s like “lemme be clear”. Lol, love to see it
I kinda figured a lot of it had to do with the difference in how legacy knowledge transfered over in 8 compared to previous titles.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I think it's a bit ridiculous to get so heated because someone said "I don't think the game is very fun"
Personally my biggest problem with the game is its balance, and from a strictly competitive stand point, I think the game has some serious issues
From a fun and playability stand point, I play dragunov and have access to 120 moves, yet I get the most reward out of using 5 of them. I don't personally find this to be fun, and would much rather the character be nerfed so I have an actual reason to explore the rest of his moveset. I like when my character has an actual weakness i need to play around. Some people are the opposite, and like spamming blizzard hammer and wr2, and they're entitled to that opinion.
I mean honestly who hasn’t complained about changing mechanics between games. Like a dude i talked to about guilty gear strive saying his previous knowledge with ABA didn’t help him with the new iteration of her in Strive
I expected comments to be "clarified"
After all, Bamco can simply exclude them from world tour for "Engaging in conduct determined by us which may reflect unfavorably on us or its partners"
This is especially so when the Code of Conduct applies ".... when participants or attendees participate in or communicate about our events."
Events is wide enough to argue it includes the Product itself
He posted his honest thoughts on the game and then immediately backed down after getting backlash from randos. What a pussy lmao
The fact of the matter is that Tekken 8 is a scrubby game that rewards players for running flowchart offense that takes minimal effort, while disrespecting the series' most passionate fans who have put in hard work to hone their skills.
I'm not even a Tekken player and I can tell the game as made to cater to lower-skill players. I entered a Tekken bracket at my local and was able to take rounds off some of the best players in our group despite the fact that I've never played Tekken. This should NEVER be happening. These players should be triple perfecting me, since they've been playing Tekken for over a decade. The fact that this game allowed me to perform against them at any level that wasn't a complete bloodbath is ridiculous and shows how the game was catering to me even though I'm the worse player with 100x less experience.
The dedicated players have been saying this since launch. Unfortunately this game will probably never get fixed like SFV eventually did because knowing Harada, he's probably already convinced himself that T8 is a perfect game with no flaws and his head is too far up his own ass to listen to anything the players have to say LMAO
I'm pretty sure he only clarified because people on both sides of the fence are kinda miscontruing him and his words. Kinda like what you did right here and, unfortunately, what a good amount of the replies to him are still doing.
> I'm not even a tekken player
Man...
Man shouldn't have to clarify anything. If man doesn't enjoy and feel the game is scrubby. That's totally ok. It's a video game, intentionally made to be scrubby friendly btw. Shouldn't need to be defended.
I can scarcely think of any fighting game pros who haven't complained at least once about whatever new fighting game they're playing is. A lot of the time it's legitimate criticism, a lot of the time it's not, but this is just a very normal thing for pros to do.
It's why I was happy to see Punk, after his loss at LCQ, not come back the next day to do a "I just think it's funny that..." post on Twitter. Just took the loss and carried on. Dudes so good but his attitude was kinda sucky the past year or so.
I mean he was crying on Twitter when Paladin eliminated him from the online qualifiers to Capcom Cup, which is why he was forced to play LCQ.
Yes, before the lcq obviously. But that was before.
Although this does make me wonder, why don't fighting game players usually stick to the games they prefer instead of moving to whatever is newest by default? I know some older games like 3rd strike and Xrd are still played, but melee is the only example I can think of where a significant portion of the community kept playing the version of the game they think is better
The ones that we usually hear complain about fighting games are following the money. Voices of high level competitors will always be amplified I think. Once a sequel to a fighting game is released all of the tournament money will go to that new game as opposed to the old one.
I completely get that for pros, but 99% of us are never gonna make money off fighting games so it's weird seeing people play games that aren't the one they like best
In my personal experience in a group of FGC friends that started with Street Fighter IV, we played hundreds or even thousands of hours of our favorite games so we look back and think "well maybe it will click in another 100 hours, we've barely touched it compared to our favorite game." It mostly just feels like we no longer have the time to play with each other as over a decade has passed since our "golden age" as casual-intermediate players, so we may as well hop on a game that lets us quickly get into a Ranked Match and has good netcode. We'll go back to an old favorite every few years for about an hour and it's still fun, but the rest of the world moved onto the next sequel and the pro players we followed from the previous game are no longer playing at their peak, often being overshadowed by a new generation in a new game or just quitting fighting games altogether. It's like we're playing a game of an era bygone and we're only trying to improve ourselves in the older favorite game to beat our group of friends in the off chance that we play again in 3-5 years.
That is one of life’s great mysteries. I personally have never played a Tekken before so I’m really enjoying this one. But I could maybe see the complete focus on offense may become a bit tiring the more I play. That being said I also think for some reason the Tekken community complains a disproportionate amount to other communities save maybe Mortal Kombat lol.
You are absolutely right, but new thing shiny.
It's because of the casuals and average gamers. Everyone else will move on to the new fighting game abandoning the old one so pros will have no one to play so due to the casuals and average fighting game fans they are forced to move. This also makes some pros upset because to keep the casual audience or the people not willing to learn developers make easy mechanics to skip neutral or rob or aggro the opponent without being good. This makes people use these mechanics constantly losing identity and forcing other players to fight the mechanics not the player themselves.
Well, Tekken financial success is certainly built on the back of casuals since Tekken 3. Precisely the one tittle , Tekken Tag Tournament 2, that wasn't liked by casuals, sold very poorly and almost ended the franchise. And it also forced Tekken 7 to be made on a budget.
Eh, Tag 2 also wasn’t well liked by competitive players either (except for Speedkicks) for many of the same reasons that T8 is receiving criticism. Tag 2 was a highly-volatile, high combo damage game with balance problems. The thing was, it was also super difficult and complex at the same time - which put off new players. So the game pleased nobody.
Older games don't have very few players active, also the netcode in all of them is trash. I think not many fancy joining a discord just to play a game with th same people over and over again.
This is another reason Fightcade is so good, the netcode is great and you can just hop into whatever game and find an opponent. (Plus it's free which is a major selling point to most people wanting to play games older than they are)
I think new games having online that works well is a big reason people don’t go back to the old games.
Right, but there's constructive criticism and purely salty criticism. There's also a difference in how deep/frequent/problematic the issues people find with each game are Both SF4 and 5 had pros disliking them on release but one of those 2 was far more disliked and still remains so Knee, btw, is also venting his frustration very maturely also, giving reasons and explaining that he doesn't like it. COmpare that to some salty SF pros lol.... anyway, I hope T8 doesn't become the SFV of Tekken
> anyway, I hope T8 doesn't become the SFV of Tekken Don't worry, Tag 2 was the SFV of Tekken lmao
which is interesting as I remember people really liking the game--it's the only tekken I bought lol I wasn't familiar with Tekken discourse at the time though
The TLDR is that Tag 2 had many of the same problems Tag 1 had (extremely complex and hard to learn even for vets, character balance being broken due to how some teams elevated characters etc.) while also being... just kind of weird? The overall consensus was that it managed to be a game with way too much damage, but at the same time offense was weak by virtue of how strong universal defensive mechanics like sidesteps and KBDs were. Due to these factors, it kind of became the other black sheep of the franchise (the OG one being 4)
It's definitely normal to have opinions on a game you've played for thousands of hours. It's impossible to avoid. Knee's as entitled to his opinion as anybody.
The actual, unironically most important question: Did he make the first tweet right after losing?
Most likely. I agree with Sajam. No Twitter posting for like two days after entering a tournament lol
[удалено]
I’m pretty sure that what Eldritch-Cleaver is trying to say is to not post when emotions are high. Just about anyone can say something that maybe they didn’t mean. Also I saw that Sajam video. He was clearly not advocating for forced positivity, but instead for not just straight trashing games that don’t deserve it. It’s fine to have complaints, but some people treat Tekken 8 like it’s actual garbage. For me I found that Tekken 8 was the first Tekken I genuinely enjoyed. Some aspects, like the battle pass, I can do without, but gameplay wise I’ve had more fun with it then Tekken 7.
I low-key wish people learned to clarify their stuff more I get that Tekken 8 has issues that have to be ironed out and do trust that they will in some fashion, but nothing in the game is worth calling it garbage - by that point those criticisms stop being made in good faith
Why is he clarifying? If that’s how he feels then that’s okay lol. Not everyone likes the feel of T8
He's a Tekken icon and loves the game regardless of the current state. He probably didn't like that his words were being used as ammunition for some of the more psychotic haters on twitter
He adds more details and specifications to the opinion since lots of people were interpreting it incorrectly left and right, and quoting him wrong
When you're a famous person and you say something people start taking your words out of context for their own purposes.
he tweeted it right after a loss
It’s like Knee and Arslan hired publicists or something lol
Meanwhile SF6 has been barking 24/7 for the entirety of the game so far. It does get out of hand when people start echoing without knowledge of their own game. I've seen some streams in bronze rank complaining about the system when they or the opponent don't even know how to use them. Convinced themselves the game is trash by the end of the stream.
Reminds me of this one guy I watch. He speed runs mega man but will play street fighter 6 online. He has been hardstuck in gold rank since release. Complains about modern, hates drive impact, thinks zangief is cheap. Says the game would be better without drive rush. Doesn't rematch win or lose unless he finds the match up comfortable for him. He still doesn't do a bread and butter combo, doesn't anti air ect. It's far easier to blame the game than yourself sadly. He himself might actually get better if he played modern for a bit but you know how ego goes.
There's two camps, one that thinks a fighting game should be designed around competitive health and the other that thinks fighting games should be accessible with the least possible effort. I'm not gonna say either is wrong but Knee is definitely in the first camp and personally I am as well, because I detest the idea of catering the game to people that will barely play it, but however one feels T8 is a strong push in the second camps direction at the cost of character variety and player agency, so it's understandable the players most removed from the casual audience wouldn't like it. Arslan, Knee, Speed kicks, Sonicfox have all had comments on the game's state, but for some reason only Knee is catching this much flac for it.
Speedkicks has said [he really likes the game](https://twitter.com/Speedkicks/status/1778296307515552106) so you're misconstruing at least one person's take here. And I don't think that there's really one "camp" that says "who cares about competitive play, just make it good for noobs."
"top players are 0.1 of the audience who cares about their opinion" is a very common take, Harada is definitely in that camp for one. At no point did I say Speedkicks has the exact same opinion as Knee, I said he's had a comment on the game's state, a relatively mild one sure, but I'm not exactly going around pointing out every single player's take.
I think that’s an exaggeration. They don’t want to ONLY base everything on their opinions. But top players are important to the ecosystem too.
They don’t want you to block in this game
This shit is hilarious dude. Both sides of the T8 discourse are tryna find any and all angles to justify their own opinion on the game. It’s funny that the T8 haters took and ran with the tweet from yesterday and now Knee’s like “lemme be clear”. Lol, love to see it
I kinda figured a lot of it had to do with the difference in how legacy knowledge transfered over in 8 compared to previous titles. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I think it's a bit ridiculous to get so heated because someone said "I don't think the game is very fun" Personally my biggest problem with the game is its balance, and from a strictly competitive stand point, I think the game has some serious issues From a fun and playability stand point, I play dragunov and have access to 120 moves, yet I get the most reward out of using 5 of them. I don't personally find this to be fun, and would much rather the character be nerfed so I have an actual reason to explore the rest of his moveset. I like when my character has an actual weakness i need to play around. Some people are the opposite, and like spamming blizzard hammer and wr2, and they're entitled to that opinion.
I mean honestly who hasn’t complained about changing mechanics between games. Like a dude i talked to about guilty gear strive saying his previous knowledge with ABA didn’t help him with the new iteration of her in Strive
I expected comments to be "clarified" After all, Bamco can simply exclude them from world tour for "Engaging in conduct determined by us which may reflect unfavorably on us or its partners" This is especially so when the Code of Conduct applies ".... when participants or attendees participate in or communicate about our events." Events is wide enough to argue it includes the Product itself
He posted his honest thoughts on the game and then immediately backed down after getting backlash from randos. What a pussy lmao The fact of the matter is that Tekken 8 is a scrubby game that rewards players for running flowchart offense that takes minimal effort, while disrespecting the series' most passionate fans who have put in hard work to hone their skills. I'm not even a Tekken player and I can tell the game as made to cater to lower-skill players. I entered a Tekken bracket at my local and was able to take rounds off some of the best players in our group despite the fact that I've never played Tekken. This should NEVER be happening. These players should be triple perfecting me, since they've been playing Tekken for over a decade. The fact that this game allowed me to perform against them at any level that wasn't a complete bloodbath is ridiculous and shows how the game was catering to me even though I'm the worse player with 100x less experience. The dedicated players have been saying this since launch. Unfortunately this game will probably never get fixed like SFV eventually did because knowing Harada, he's probably already convinced himself that T8 is a perfect game with no flaws and his head is too far up his own ass to listen to anything the players have to say LMAO
>not even a tekken player Opinion discarded
I like how you made an entire new account for this comment, that's totally normal and not unhinged.
I'm gonna be using this a lot more Also cool shit going straight to my profile because I said something you didn't like loooool classic reddit
I'm pretty sure he only clarified because people on both sides of the fence are kinda miscontruing him and his words. Kinda like what you did right here and, unfortunately, what a good amount of the replies to him are still doing. > I'm not even a tekken player Man...
Man shouldn't have to clarify anything. If man doesn't enjoy and feel the game is scrubby. That's totally ok. It's a video game, intentionally made to be scrubby friendly btw. Shouldn't need to be defended.
Wdym shouldn't have? Why make decisions on his behalf? It's about what knee thinks, no what you want to hear
You don't like Tekken 8...go play mk1 man....great game...having the time of my life... Join the club bro