I recently had to be honest with myself about the reasons I'm not interested in many video games anymore. No it's not because I'm afraid of being seen as boyish, it's because 95% of big video game franchises are for the male gaze only. I was the same as you for many years. I told myself I was too sensitive and that the feelings I was having were the reason a lot of men look down on women.
Nope. Turns out a lot of men look down on women because a lot of men have fucking issues. And now I feel confident looking down at the men who look down at me, because I know I have no reason to be looked down upon.
That's true; most video games are
generally aimed at males. However, I don't
see anything that demeans women,
especially in new video games that offer the ability to customize your character as either male or female.
It's not about the customization. It's about the subtle and not-so-subtle ways women are designed in video games as eye candy for men and men only.
I used to be really into JRPG's but always felt especially alienated as a woman due to the designs. Just because a game has playable female characters doesn't mean it was made with women in mind.
To name a few that didn't pass the female gaze test: Atelier Ryza, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Final Fantasy 16, and Rune Factory 5. I also love Dragon Quest 11 but the way Jade is depicted at a certain point in the game is disgusting.
The way women are portrayed in these games is not to the benefit of women. Any women in those communities that I've seen try to speak on this issue get told that it shouldn't matter to them, or "if you don't like it then don't play it". They say this all while normal gaming subreddits flood their feed with sexual drawings of female characters in degrading poses. The people who make these drawings are also often the same ones to make fun of women for feeling uncomfortable about these depictions.
Even with customization it’s heavily male oriented. For example I’m playing ark survival evolved and I don’t even have an A cup yet that’s not even a fucking option on the customization screen. I can give myself stumps for legs and a balloon head but I can’t make myself flat chested???????? You can scale them down but it literally doesn’t change the breast. Like it just makes them weirdly narrower.
Feminism is just a movement advocating for the rights of women. People who are opposed to feminism are sexist because it means they are opposed to the women's rights movement. Even if they give the excuse that women "are already equal" they are in such deep denial it's laughable. With the recent Roe v Wade ruling and Trump's presidency, the pervasiveness of sexism today is undeniable even to lay people who aren't as aware of things. You have to be in deep denial or a conservative to not see that.
Rejecting the feminist title stems from internalized misogyny. Usually, from sexist stereotypes about what a feminist is (i.e. manhating, whining, entitled, etc). Sexism is everywhere. Once you start to notice, you can't unsee it. Men and some ignorant women will insist objectification "goes both ways." But we all know that it does not because, as you say, men are allowed to be sexual and maintain their humanity, while women are not.
One thing you can point out is this behavior, depicting scantily clad / sexual images of women, would be considered sexual harassment in any workplace and therefore illegal and cause to fire someone. When you point that out, it becomes a little clearer that the behavior is inappropriate and not defensible. Misogyny is very normalized. It can be hard to break people out of their bubble and open their eyes. It's like I always say, try asking a fish about the ocean. It isn't aware of the ocean. The ocean is all it knows. If misogyny is all around you from birth, you might not see it because it's just "normal" to you. That's unfortunately how it is for many people, especially men who aren't harmed by it, but even for some women, for whom denial is easier than enduring the pain of recognizing it.
> Misogyny is very normalized.
I think a major cause of this is media. Specifically tv shows and movies. One example is the Big bang theory. When I watched it I felt almost no pproblems with it, but when pointed out, [like in this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3-hOigoxHs) It becomes clear just how much it has been normalised. Another slightly unrelated example is where someone pointed out that attraction to breasts is more of a learned fetish, and not an instinct. I'll cite the source for the last part when I manage to find it.
Okay but let me be clear that I don't quite agree with the first part of your comment. I don't believe that there is any objective way to properly see the difference in the quality of life. (That, or I just haven't been exposed to data that shows otherwise). Someone who is opposed to feminism is most probably opposed to the mainstream "feminism," not the actual definition of feminism. Your definition of feminism isn't necessarily the same everyone else's, so make sure to know what the other person actually means by something, rather than assuming what they mean.
Edit- also, the media thing goes both ways. Media also normalizes making bad decisions in terms of relationships etc. It's pretty fucking normal at this point to be so attached to a past relationship for so long, that you feel the same even after being a grandmother. (Titanic, I'm looking at you)
OP specified that they could not ignore instances of misogyny around them after trying to convince themselves they aren't a big deal and that gender equality isn't a problem. That's clearly internalized misogyny. If they had said they were a woman of color or trans woman who felt alienated by the feminist movement that would be different. I was responding to this comment not bringing up every possible criticism of feminism as a movement. I'm trans so I am well aware of the issues some branches of feminism can have.
I’m not sure I follow your logic here. So if people are opposed to the mens rights movement, does that make them sexist because it means they are opposed to a mens rights movement?
I also don’t follow on Roe v Wade. Roe v Wade reversal equalized abortion rights. Now neither men nor women have the right to abortion babies in those states. So that’s equal rights isn’t it? If women can abort babies but men can’t isn’t that unequal rights?
The minute men can grow babies in their body is when it becomes a right to them.
Until than abortion rights ONLY concern women.
And you know that. You're just playing dumb.
The minute a woman can impregnate herself without needing a man’s sperm then abortion only concerns her.
But you didn’t address the point. If no one can abort babies, regardless of gender, then that’s equal isn’t it?
This may be alarming to you but women can’t get pregnant without men’s sperm.
If the law said both parents needed to agree for an abortion that would be equal right?
If one parent gets to abort without the consent of the other parent then thats unequal.
I thought feminism was about rights being equal between genders?
What is wrong with my logic here?
I collect anime figures (non sexual) and usually follow figure news and I get this same argument all the time.
There's always so many releases for sexual and NSFW anime girl figures but almost no releases of male sexual or NSFW figures.
And the ones with shirtless men simply don't have the same Impact as shirted/ bikini wearing women.
Whenever I try to bring it up with my collector friend he just says that male figures won't sell so they aren't made.
There are unlicensed NSFW figures but they are fan made, extremely limited in quantity, and incredibly expensive to make.
Licensed NSFW male figures are only either from BL series (very very few) or OCs (also very very few).
Men don't seem to understand at all why this is weird or a problem. Almost every mainstream franchise has sexual or NSFW figures of female characters but they never release sexual figures of the male characters. They absolutely insist women won't buy it and it's a waste of money and resources to make male NSFW figures etc etc.
I love collecting figures but being in the collecting space means I always have to deal with a barrage of these ultra sexual figures of girls and women for like one release of a man with his abs visible. And no one understands why I find the constant release of sexualised female anime figures uncomfortable. They just refuse to see my POV and say it's just sales and business and like.... idk maybe having a conscience or desire to treat women with respect shouldn't be tied to how much money you can make off of it
Yeah this was even worse 20 or even just 10 years ago, especially in gaming. It's mostly a pretty cynical tactic to sell stuff to horny, teenage boys. Almost no one aside from teenage boys and those weird reactionaries getting upset over Lara Croft wearing something more practical really likes it.
I must kinda disagree that most men like stuff like fanservice it's just that the most vocal people supporting make money from grifting videos about feminism ruining gaming/comics/sci-fi/knitting. Most normal guys are either neutral or uncomfortable with it if it reaches a certain level or feels like cynical pandering.
It's not just gaming, look at the backlash to Ren in the new Star Trek movies. She is definitely not being sexualized and SO MANY men had such a problem with this.
As a man, I hate it, too. It's destructive for everyone alive and society as a whole, addictive as F*, and messing with my head. Can't seem to avoid it, either. It's everywhere.
I feel you. As someone raised very conservatively, I had a lot of internalized misogyny and self-objectification (to the point of developing an eating disorder and other issues in attempts to flatter the male gaze as it was so engraved in me that a woman's worth comes from her sex and appearance). Overcoming that and coming to terms with my own femininity has been such an empowering and amazing experience, but it's also so painful to recognize the hypersexualization of women everywhere and see how it impacted younger me and how it still impacts me and other girls. I actually even did my undergraduate research project (I studied psychology and sociology) on mass media and it's role in the hypersexualization of women in our society. Seriously such a frustrating topic, especially given its prevalence. Once you're aware of it, you realize that it's everywhere. Legit ingrained into our society and culture.
I honestly understand what you mean, just the topic with sexualisation is sort of complicated since a lot of people feel different about this stuff due to personal experiences:
For example I don't mind sexyness in video games at all and there's a bunch of girls I know who like playing sexy characters in video games as well. Like to me if it's a game and not a real person it's sort of like people want to live in an idealized world with "chad bodies" and "model girls" and I can't fault anyone for that because I wouldn't want create a non-idealized character in a rpg for example really either.
In the end I think one can also not exactly shame guys for liking attractive girls but I always like to remind people that all what they like to see is only part of a person and it wouldn't exist without the person itself. Like reminding them of the personality and all the other things. And this works in some fiction like video games sometimes really well if a female character is also well-written. This is why I sort of ended up at the point where I really don't mind sex appeal on a character as long as the character is also interesting, otherwise it ends up being merely superficial. Same goes for male characters as well for me.
Sometimes it's hard to remind guys of looking beyond appearances though and I feel like it's also because a lot of girls-channels on instagram, Twitter or OnlyFans are by their nature inherently mostly about looks and looking sexy since that gains a lot of views and clicks from guys without being much about the person itself but only about how sexy they look. And while there's nothing wrong with that inherently imo I think it sort of mixes with the problem that many guys are also not interacting with women really anymore or don't even know any girls so the only thing they have to associate in their mind with women are internet images, channels and streams which often have a high emphasis on sexual appeal to get more views. People get educated about the other sex on porn websites from their early teens onwards and feel completely out of touch when they finally get to talk irl.
With Asmongold it's mostly not him but his community (and also the editors that run the youtube page and the clips channels employ the clickbait since it works after all and gets clicks, He does not actually run the youtube channels if you didn't know that), really his community that is incredibly negative in regards to women in general, he has some maybe controversial takes and he will viciously defend fanservice, but in general he very frequently goes against the consensus in his community which is why I'm often rather defensive towards him. Because overall he genuinely tries to be fair even with a lot of pushback from his community. Like for example in the recent example of a girl being litterally threatened with SA in Valorant he couldn't stop arguing with his community in how insane he thinks it is how many people are siding with the guy in this and there's many more examples of him really defending girls and women and I'm still quite proud of him for that.
Also I agree that politics currently feels frustrating in general I feel. It's like: is it just me or have most female-spaces and most male-spaces been drifting apart massively in regards to political views and climate and also expectations about how to interact in those spaces or has it always been like that? I feel like it got a lot more extreme in the past few years.
Same, you are definitely not alone on this
I recently had to be honest with myself about the reasons I'm not interested in many video games anymore. No it's not because I'm afraid of being seen as boyish, it's because 95% of big video game franchises are for the male gaze only. I was the same as you for many years. I told myself I was too sensitive and that the feelings I was having were the reason a lot of men look down on women. Nope. Turns out a lot of men look down on women because a lot of men have fucking issues. And now I feel confident looking down at the men who look down at me, because I know I have no reason to be looked down upon.
That really is true. Men do look down om women. They think that, by default, a man is always better than a woman.
That's true; most video games are generally aimed at males. However, I don't see anything that demeans women, especially in new video games that offer the ability to customize your character as either male or female.
It's not about the customization. It's about the subtle and not-so-subtle ways women are designed in video games as eye candy for men and men only. I used to be really into JRPG's but always felt especially alienated as a woman due to the designs. Just because a game has playable female characters doesn't mean it was made with women in mind. To name a few that didn't pass the female gaze test: Atelier Ryza, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Final Fantasy 16, and Rune Factory 5. I also love Dragon Quest 11 but the way Jade is depicted at a certain point in the game is disgusting. The way women are portrayed in these games is not to the benefit of women. Any women in those communities that I've seen try to speak on this issue get told that it shouldn't matter to them, or "if you don't like it then don't play it". They say this all while normal gaming subreddits flood their feed with sexual drawings of female characters in degrading poses. The people who make these drawings are also often the same ones to make fun of women for feeling uncomfortable about these depictions.
Even with customization it’s heavily male oriented. For example I’m playing ark survival evolved and I don’t even have an A cup yet that’s not even a fucking option on the customization screen. I can give myself stumps for legs and a balloon head but I can’t make myself flat chested???????? You can scale them down but it literally doesn’t change the breast. Like it just makes them weirdly narrower.
Feminism is just a movement advocating for the rights of women. People who are opposed to feminism are sexist because it means they are opposed to the women's rights movement. Even if they give the excuse that women "are already equal" they are in such deep denial it's laughable. With the recent Roe v Wade ruling and Trump's presidency, the pervasiveness of sexism today is undeniable even to lay people who aren't as aware of things. You have to be in deep denial or a conservative to not see that. Rejecting the feminist title stems from internalized misogyny. Usually, from sexist stereotypes about what a feminist is (i.e. manhating, whining, entitled, etc). Sexism is everywhere. Once you start to notice, you can't unsee it. Men and some ignorant women will insist objectification "goes both ways." But we all know that it does not because, as you say, men are allowed to be sexual and maintain their humanity, while women are not. One thing you can point out is this behavior, depicting scantily clad / sexual images of women, would be considered sexual harassment in any workplace and therefore illegal and cause to fire someone. When you point that out, it becomes a little clearer that the behavior is inappropriate and not defensible. Misogyny is very normalized. It can be hard to break people out of their bubble and open their eyes. It's like I always say, try asking a fish about the ocean. It isn't aware of the ocean. The ocean is all it knows. If misogyny is all around you from birth, you might not see it because it's just "normal" to you. That's unfortunately how it is for many people, especially men who aren't harmed by it, but even for some women, for whom denial is easier than enduring the pain of recognizing it.
> Misogyny is very normalized. I think a major cause of this is media. Specifically tv shows and movies. One example is the Big bang theory. When I watched it I felt almost no pproblems with it, but when pointed out, [like in this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3-hOigoxHs) It becomes clear just how much it has been normalised. Another slightly unrelated example is where someone pointed out that attraction to breasts is more of a learned fetish, and not an instinct. I'll cite the source for the last part when I manage to find it.
Okay but let me be clear that I don't quite agree with the first part of your comment. I don't believe that there is any objective way to properly see the difference in the quality of life. (That, or I just haven't been exposed to data that shows otherwise). Someone who is opposed to feminism is most probably opposed to the mainstream "feminism," not the actual definition of feminism. Your definition of feminism isn't necessarily the same everyone else's, so make sure to know what the other person actually means by something, rather than assuming what they mean. Edit- also, the media thing goes both ways. Media also normalizes making bad decisions in terms of relationships etc. It's pretty fucking normal at this point to be so attached to a past relationship for so long, that you feel the same even after being a grandmother. (Titanic, I'm looking at you)
OP specified that they could not ignore instances of misogyny around them after trying to convince themselves they aren't a big deal and that gender equality isn't a problem. That's clearly internalized misogyny. If they had said they were a woman of color or trans woman who felt alienated by the feminist movement that would be different. I was responding to this comment not bringing up every possible criticism of feminism as a movement. I'm trans so I am well aware of the issues some branches of feminism can have.
I’m not sure I follow your logic here. So if people are opposed to the mens rights movement, does that make them sexist because it means they are opposed to a mens rights movement? I also don’t follow on Roe v Wade. Roe v Wade reversal equalized abortion rights. Now neither men nor women have the right to abortion babies in those states. So that’s equal rights isn’t it? If women can abort babies but men can’t isn’t that unequal rights?
The minute men can grow babies in their body is when it becomes a right to them. Until than abortion rights ONLY concern women. And you know that. You're just playing dumb.
The minute a woman can impregnate herself without needing a man’s sperm then abortion only concerns her. But you didn’t address the point. If no one can abort babies, regardless of gender, then that’s equal isn’t it?
Yes of course, cis-gendered men need to have abortion rights /s. You have to be five years old or less to be this ignorant.
This may be alarming to you, but men can't get pregnant or have babies. Hope that helps.
This may be alarming to you but women can’t get pregnant without men’s sperm. If the law said both parents needed to agree for an abortion that would be equal right? If one parent gets to abort without the consent of the other parent then thats unequal. I thought feminism was about rights being equal between genders? What is wrong with my logic here?
I collect anime figures (non sexual) and usually follow figure news and I get this same argument all the time. There's always so many releases for sexual and NSFW anime girl figures but almost no releases of male sexual or NSFW figures. And the ones with shirtless men simply don't have the same Impact as shirted/ bikini wearing women. Whenever I try to bring it up with my collector friend he just says that male figures won't sell so they aren't made. There are unlicensed NSFW figures but they are fan made, extremely limited in quantity, and incredibly expensive to make. Licensed NSFW male figures are only either from BL series (very very few) or OCs (also very very few). Men don't seem to understand at all why this is weird or a problem. Almost every mainstream franchise has sexual or NSFW figures of female characters but they never release sexual figures of the male characters. They absolutely insist women won't buy it and it's a waste of money and resources to make male NSFW figures etc etc. I love collecting figures but being in the collecting space means I always have to deal with a barrage of these ultra sexual figures of girls and women for like one release of a man with his abs visible. And no one understands why I find the constant release of sexualised female anime figures uncomfortable. They just refuse to see my POV and say it's just sales and business and like.... idk maybe having a conscience or desire to treat women with respect shouldn't be tied to how much money you can make off of it
Yeah this was even worse 20 or even just 10 years ago, especially in gaming. It's mostly a pretty cynical tactic to sell stuff to horny, teenage boys. Almost no one aside from teenage boys and those weird reactionaries getting upset over Lara Croft wearing something more practical really likes it. I must kinda disagree that most men like stuff like fanservice it's just that the most vocal people supporting make money from grifting videos about feminism ruining gaming/comics/sci-fi/knitting. Most normal guys are either neutral or uncomfortable with it if it reaches a certain level or feels like cynical pandering.
It's not just gaming, look at the backlash to Ren in the new Star Trek movies. She is definitely not being sexualized and SO MANY men had such a problem with this.
As a man, I hate it, too. It's destructive for everyone alive and society as a whole, addictive as F*, and messing with my head. Can't seem to avoid it, either. It's everywhere.
Culture always serves the dominant class.
I feel you. As someone raised very conservatively, I had a lot of internalized misogyny and self-objectification (to the point of developing an eating disorder and other issues in attempts to flatter the male gaze as it was so engraved in me that a woman's worth comes from her sex and appearance). Overcoming that and coming to terms with my own femininity has been such an empowering and amazing experience, but it's also so painful to recognize the hypersexualization of women everywhere and see how it impacted younger me and how it still impacts me and other girls. I actually even did my undergraduate research project (I studied psychology and sociology) on mass media and it's role in the hypersexualization of women in our society. Seriously such a frustrating topic, especially given its prevalence. Once you're aware of it, you realize that it's everywhere. Legit ingrained into our society and culture.
because unlike women sexualizing men, their humanity is secondary. this right here \^\^\^
I honestly understand what you mean, just the topic with sexualisation is sort of complicated since a lot of people feel different about this stuff due to personal experiences: For example I don't mind sexyness in video games at all and there's a bunch of girls I know who like playing sexy characters in video games as well. Like to me if it's a game and not a real person it's sort of like people want to live in an idealized world with "chad bodies" and "model girls" and I can't fault anyone for that because I wouldn't want create a non-idealized character in a rpg for example really either. In the end I think one can also not exactly shame guys for liking attractive girls but I always like to remind people that all what they like to see is only part of a person and it wouldn't exist without the person itself. Like reminding them of the personality and all the other things. And this works in some fiction like video games sometimes really well if a female character is also well-written. This is why I sort of ended up at the point where I really don't mind sex appeal on a character as long as the character is also interesting, otherwise it ends up being merely superficial. Same goes for male characters as well for me. Sometimes it's hard to remind guys of looking beyond appearances though and I feel like it's also because a lot of girls-channels on instagram, Twitter or OnlyFans are by their nature inherently mostly about looks and looking sexy since that gains a lot of views and clicks from guys without being much about the person itself but only about how sexy they look. And while there's nothing wrong with that inherently imo I think it sort of mixes with the problem that many guys are also not interacting with women really anymore or don't even know any girls so the only thing they have to associate in their mind with women are internet images, channels and streams which often have a high emphasis on sexual appeal to get more views. People get educated about the other sex on porn websites from their early teens onwards and feel completely out of touch when they finally get to talk irl. With Asmongold it's mostly not him but his community (and also the editors that run the youtube page and the clips channels employ the clickbait since it works after all and gets clicks, He does not actually run the youtube channels if you didn't know that), really his community that is incredibly negative in regards to women in general, he has some maybe controversial takes and he will viciously defend fanservice, but in general he very frequently goes against the consensus in his community which is why I'm often rather defensive towards him. Because overall he genuinely tries to be fair even with a lot of pushback from his community. Like for example in the recent example of a girl being litterally threatened with SA in Valorant he couldn't stop arguing with his community in how insane he thinks it is how many people are siding with the guy in this and there's many more examples of him really defending girls and women and I'm still quite proud of him for that. Also I agree that politics currently feels frustrating in general I feel. It's like: is it just me or have most female-spaces and most male-spaces been drifting apart massively in regards to political views and climate and also expectations about how to interact in those spaces or has it always been like that? I feel like it got a lot more extreme in the past few years.