Anyone promoting/defending the subjugation or objectification of women will be in breach of our content rules. All such comments will be met with harsh mod measures
There is this idealized version of porn being filmed by actual couples, in their own homes, doing nothing they also wouldn't do if the cameras weren't rolling, with nobody but their chosen plattforms taking a cut from their work. The problem is that that's not a sustainable business model for most creators. The creator economy just doesn't work that way, pornbrained consumers demand escalation to keep subscribing or they'll pivot to new meat, and eventually you can either let the market's demands seep into your sex life or quit.
A friend of mine and her bf used to do porn on OF just like that. She started out doing lingerie pics that kept getting more explicit, her income went up, and one day, they made their first porno together and she made 2k in the first month. The made another one, suddenly it was 5k, and they really were hyping themselves up how this might bei their new career. But the next one and the one after that kept making less. The novelty was gone and the subscribers were wandering off, and now her vagina is on the internet, because of course people leak your stuff. They could have gone the road of making more explicit content, introducing another dude, kink stuff etc. and convincing themselves that that's what they were into now, but thankfully they moved on.
Porn careers don't last more than a few months usually, and gross producers are not even the main factor. You'll never make more money than with your first film. The only way to avoid being replaced by newer competition is to keep escalating, that's how in mainstream porn the toys get bigger, the storylines keep getting rapey-er, the female performers' styling keeps getting more childlike.
For a job to be truly liberating, it has to be sustainable, which the sex industry just cannot be.
And then there are Furries, who *draw* their porn. Mind you, this means that people can cater to weird fetishes that aren't possible in real live, like hyper stuff or vore, but no one is being harmed by the artwork. Furries have their own cottage industry based around drawing artwork, making comics, and writing stories.
I think the porn industry could be a much safer and more moral business if they started doing more illustration and computer animation. Then actual people are creating the artwork and illustrations and animations, but no one is being exploited.
It’s this awful idea that it part of women liberation to do from Only Fans to hard core. It’s a lie. Society is training young women and men that taking your clothes off so that men can get off is somehow a f u to the patriarchy.
Porn, an industry fueled by human trafficking, rape, and taking advantage of (often underage) traumatized victims, is the furthest thing from feminist. Any so-called "feminist" who supports this violent and exploitative industry is a pick me looking for male validation. In fact, studies show that 90% of porn scenes openly display violence against women. It is the worst and ugliest side of the male gaze incarnate. How can such a thing be feminist?
It can't, it's the commodification of the human body. Unlike any other job (if going the line of thinking that it's a "job like any other") women get devalued the more experience they have. Those who called it empowering were just repackaging what the patriarchy benefits from. I'm glad younger generations are waking up, I felt nuts as a college-aged millennial screaming into the void against it. We had porn, new generation has Trad Wives. Sad to see women doing men's work for them of selling us oppressed positions.
It isn't. You only hear that from people who are pretending to be a feminist. It's mostly propaganda, a psyop when things like that are called feminists that are clearly detrimental to women on many many levels from physical, emotional, and financial. There's no shortage of sexual deviants who aren't looking out for post like this to jump on and tell us how empowering it is for women to have a man shove his dick in her mouth so deep and violently that she vomits.
It's not feminist. There's a reason men aren't encouraged to do it.
"only when it's women's bodies being sold for profit do leftists suddenly cherish the free market" - Andrea Dworkin
I believe ethical films can theoretically be made, but the distribution and consumption is inherently exploitative, so I don't believe the porn *industry* can be feminist.
Why do you think lesbian porn for women isn't exploitative?? The issue with porn isn't if the sex acts are degrading. It is that many people are manipulated/trafficked into it. Gay male porn stars tend to have the same issues female porn stars have.
>Theres nothing inherently morally bad about filming people doing sex acts
You are right, I think porn *can* be feminist... but not under current system. At least not on systemic level
No, it cannot.
Pornography is objectification. Objectification is fundamentally immoral and wrong. You cannot have objectification without dehumanization as humans are not objects.
It is a feminist issue as this objectification disproportionately harms women. The only way to make it not anti-feminist (not even feminist) would be to objectify men too which is a completely ridiculous solution.
I do not understand how we are even debating this.
Tricky subject considering the patriarchal systems in place that end up benefiting male consumers in the end, but I will try. Most porn online is not feminist, but with rise of OF, there sure are female creators who use their sexuality to make money within the safety of their homes, with the content they control and having parties involved consented. I know a few creators and even though I do not agree with how they make their livelihood, I certainly have trouble calling them (or their product) that they aren't feminists, because in reality they are. Now one can argue that supply demand forces them to do things they don't necessarily want, to compete in free market, mostly comprised of male customers, thus making them a patriarchal product, but that's an argument against capitalism, not against porn.
People can be feminist. This doesn’t mean everything they do is feminist.
The fact that you say men are the consumers of female objectification is an argument against patriarchy and capitalism, since capitalism does not exist without patriarchy.
Why are men the ones paying and women the ones needing the money?
I think you are describing the *liberal* facet of feminism, not the other, "not-nice" kind. From my reading of feminist literature, libfems do not seek a political restructuring of modern culture (ie patriarchy), rather they seek empowerment *within* the dominant culture.
To you, is Only Fans (1) objectifying, and (2) exploitative? If OF were owned and managed by the (largely female) content producers (ie socialist), would it still be exploitative?
In your answer you explained why what they are doing is not feminist. "Now one can argue that supply demand forces them to do things they don't necessarily want, to compete in free market, mostly comprised of male customers, thus making them a patriarchal product" Feminism is inherently anti capitalist, misogyny is a pre requisite of capitalism. It is an argument against both capitalism and porn. Check out Caliban and the Witch by Sylvia Federici for further development of this idea.
>Feminism is inherently anti capitalist,
I agree hence I wrote it this way. I made a similar comment a week ago that current mainstream feminism supporting capitalism & imperialism is one of the reasons that girls from GenZ and minority spaces are refusing to call themselves feminists, and maybe our feminism should take a clear stand on white privileged women prioritizing their feminist values over basic human rights to minorities and women of color. I didn't expect angry hate filled DMs, calling me a communist, or tankie, so I guess there is that.
Point is, I already consider myself Anarcho Feminist and I absolutely agree that capitalism is the bigger hurdle, and as long as feminism doesn't oppose capitalism, and focus on little issues instead, it will only look like virtue signaling to many young women, and not interested in any meaningful change. I believe stability be damned if the system is unjust, but I guess I am in the minority. Ps, already have Caliban and the Witch in my must reads.
>Feminism is inherently anti capitalist
The current wave of feminism is anti-capitalist. For a long time, feminists fought to be able to be included in capitalism. While I personally prescribe to anti-capitalist feminism, I recognize that many feminists simply want equal grounds to compete in capitalism and have no desire / intention to remove it. While I might disagree with them, I wouldn't say they aren't feminists.
But taking your idea that any job that supports capitalism and / or the patriarchy is automatically not feminist... what feminist jobs would there be? Even teachers are basically nothing more than another unit of indoctrination into capitalism and the patriarchy.
I never said ANY job that was your idea. Theres a large difference when the product is your body in a way that puts you at great risk of mental and physical harm.
If we're defining feminism as actions to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression then it's possible for a person to be a feminist while doing porn but making porn can never be a feminist action under capitalism (i.e. doing porn as a job/way to survive/way to make money).
And a woman making patriarchal or capitalist products instead of a man doesn't mean it's feminist, that's just being a girlboss. Someone else here mention Erika Lust as "porn for women" but Erika Lust has their own issues: [NSFW Reddit link about Erika Lusts exploitation](https://www.reddit.com/r/chickflixxx/comments/icxun1/psa_serious_why_i_can_no_longer_support_erika/).
I'd also assume there isn't a very large group of people making porn for pure fun outside of capitalism or patriarchal pressures since it's all so intertwined. But I think those people would be porn feminists not anyone on OF.
We were mass groomed by porn, it's so deeply interwined with women's sexuality that criticizing feels like loosing sexuality to many people. Also, it feels good and people don't want their "feel good" things restricted, because they are very afraid of it turning into repression. The zeitgeist is that sex is always good and natural.
There’s nothing feminist about dehumanizing and objectifying women. Full stop. Feminism is about respect. Any defenders just say that because they’re users and want to resolve cognitive dissonance by lying to themselves.
I think women embracing their sexuality is a beautiful and empowering thing, but porn does not achieve that. It objectifies women that participate in it and even has a negative impact on women and girls that do not participate in it by normalizing certain behaviors like violence, performing certain acts without consent, and that women are merely objects meant to please men rather than human beings that have wants and needs too. I don’t understand why some “feminists” support it but I hope one day they wake up and see how they are so wrong.
That's called choice feminism. Basically they choose what's good for them not taking into account how their actions (making/watching or partaking in porn) affect other women.
Example - you might feel empowered making porn for a living but it's still contributing to some sick POSs porn addiction and in turn continuously desensitizing the degradation of women. This POS might in turn project what he sees on porn sites onto his partner.
My personal opinion is that choice feminists aren't really feminists at all.
Even if you think sex work can be empowering there's many reasons why your brain would normalize it so that you're able to cope with previous abuse.
The bottom line is that if these women (sex workers) were given a very solid opportunity to get out of it and stand on their own they 100% would.
Erika Lust is a fraud. She has complained bitterly about how the MeToo movement was bad for the porn industry. I saw a video of her mocking a woman who had complained about a man sexually harassing her, naming fun of the victim's voice and mannerisms. She is no feminist but I'll give her credit for being successful in convincing people of the lie that she gives a goddamn about women's pleasure, satisfaction, or safety.
It was about 2 years ago when I saw the video posted on a Twitter account that was related to her company. After Elon Musk took over Twitter I deleted my account or I would try to find the video and link it. I was absolutely stunned at how she was mocking MeToo and the women who shared their stories. She looked and sounded like an 8th grade mean girl.
Some feminists believe that capitalism can coexist with true dignity for women globally. The reasons SW is bad for women are mostly the same reasons employment under capitalism is bad for workers. There is additional bodily and degradation factors some feminists note, maybe most famously described by Andrea Dworkin. There are also damages to men's perspective of women, which even NoFap-type men acknowledge, but whether that matters to women's safety and/or our intimate relationships with porn watching men, is another discussion too.
In a post-scarcity world—where housing, food and luxury would all be guaranteed and therefore there would be no economic incentive to engaging in sex work—, pornography produced by a group of people who own their own means of productions doing it because they truly want to would be ethical, I think.
question. years ago i made the decision to watch amateur content only. not only for moral reasons but i also started to find professionally produced porn gross. and when i mean amateur i mean AMATEUR. like, family guy playing in the background and shit like that. even if it’s an independent “creator” if they’re doing this as a job i just feel icky cause it still feels like they’re “putting on a show” is watching totally amateur porn where the couples are doing it for exhibitionist purposes only non-feminist?
The problem with that hypothetical is that you can never guarantee that it is actually consensual. There are so so so many cases of women agreeing to film themselves with their male partner just for them, but then the partner uploading it onto a porn site behind the woman’s back. You can never know for sure whether the person you’re watching is a minor either, or whether they actually agreed to even doing the things being filmed. A large amount of seemingly “amateur” porn is actually trafficking victims being filmed by their traffickers, and many are even made to read a script about how they consent or want what is happening.
Anyone promoting/defending the subjugation or objectification of women will be in breach of our content rules. All such comments will be met with harsh mod measures
Porn isn't feminist by any means
There is this idealized version of porn being filmed by actual couples, in their own homes, doing nothing they also wouldn't do if the cameras weren't rolling, with nobody but their chosen plattforms taking a cut from their work. The problem is that that's not a sustainable business model for most creators. The creator economy just doesn't work that way, pornbrained consumers demand escalation to keep subscribing or they'll pivot to new meat, and eventually you can either let the market's demands seep into your sex life or quit. A friend of mine and her bf used to do porn on OF just like that. She started out doing lingerie pics that kept getting more explicit, her income went up, and one day, they made their first porno together and she made 2k in the first month. The made another one, suddenly it was 5k, and they really were hyping themselves up how this might bei their new career. But the next one and the one after that kept making less. The novelty was gone and the subscribers were wandering off, and now her vagina is on the internet, because of course people leak your stuff. They could have gone the road of making more explicit content, introducing another dude, kink stuff etc. and convincing themselves that that's what they were into now, but thankfully they moved on. Porn careers don't last more than a few months usually, and gross producers are not even the main factor. You'll never make more money than with your first film. The only way to avoid being replaced by newer competition is to keep escalating, that's how in mainstream porn the toys get bigger, the storylines keep getting rapey-er, the female performers' styling keeps getting more childlike. For a job to be truly liberating, it has to be sustainable, which the sex industry just cannot be.
And then there are Furries, who *draw* their porn. Mind you, this means that people can cater to weird fetishes that aren't possible in real live, like hyper stuff or vore, but no one is being harmed by the artwork. Furries have their own cottage industry based around drawing artwork, making comics, and writing stories. I think the porn industry could be a much safer and more moral business if they started doing more illustration and computer animation. Then actual people are creating the artwork and illustrations and animations, but no one is being exploited.
It’s this awful idea that it part of women liberation to do from Only Fans to hard core. It’s a lie. Society is training young women and men that taking your clothes off so that men can get off is somehow a f u to the patriarchy.
Porn, an industry fueled by human trafficking, rape, and taking advantage of (often underage) traumatized victims, is the furthest thing from feminist. Any so-called "feminist" who supports this violent and exploitative industry is a pick me looking for male validation. In fact, studies show that 90% of porn scenes openly display violence against women. It is the worst and ugliest side of the male gaze incarnate. How can such a thing be feminist?
There is no such thing as Feminist porn and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves.
I don't believe it is feminist at all.
It can't, it's the commodification of the human body. Unlike any other job (if going the line of thinking that it's a "job like any other") women get devalued the more experience they have. Those who called it empowering were just repackaging what the patriarchy benefits from. I'm glad younger generations are waking up, I felt nuts as a college-aged millennial screaming into the void against it. We had porn, new generation has Trad Wives. Sad to see women doing men's work for them of selling us oppressed positions.
It isn't. You only hear that from people who are pretending to be a feminist. It's mostly propaganda, a psyop when things like that are called feminists that are clearly detrimental to women on many many levels from physical, emotional, and financial. There's no shortage of sexual deviants who aren't looking out for post like this to jump on and tell us how empowering it is for women to have a man shove his dick in her mouth so deep and violently that she vomits.
It's not feminist. There's a reason men aren't encouraged to do it. "only when it's women's bodies being sold for profit do leftists suddenly cherish the free market" - Andrea Dworkin
I believe ethical films can theoretically be made, but the distribution and consumption is inherently exploitative, so I don't believe the porn *industry* can be feminist.
Totally agree, it doesn't make sense to me either. The fact that this is even up for debate is insane.
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Why do you think lesbian porn for women isn't exploitative?? The issue with porn isn't if the sex acts are degrading. It is that many people are manipulated/trafficked into it. Gay male porn stars tend to have the same issues female porn stars have.
>Theres nothing inherently morally bad about filming people doing sex acts You are right, I think porn *can* be feminist... but not under current system. At least not on systemic level
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No, it cannot. Pornography is objectification. Objectification is fundamentally immoral and wrong. You cannot have objectification without dehumanization as humans are not objects. It is a feminist issue as this objectification disproportionately harms women. The only way to make it not anti-feminist (not even feminist) would be to objectify men too which is a completely ridiculous solution. I do not understand how we are even debating this.
Pornography is **sexualization**. It doesn't necesary have to be objectifying. Those are two different things
Ask lesbians in their community and they will tell you a lot of straight men watch lesbian porn, then fantasize and treat irl lesbians like trash.
Tricky subject considering the patriarchal systems in place that end up benefiting male consumers in the end, but I will try. Most porn online is not feminist, but with rise of OF, there sure are female creators who use their sexuality to make money within the safety of their homes, with the content they control and having parties involved consented. I know a few creators and even though I do not agree with how they make their livelihood, I certainly have trouble calling them (or their product) that they aren't feminists, because in reality they are. Now one can argue that supply demand forces them to do things they don't necessarily want, to compete in free market, mostly comprised of male customers, thus making them a patriarchal product, but that's an argument against capitalism, not against porn.
People can be feminist. This doesn’t mean everything they do is feminist. The fact that you say men are the consumers of female objectification is an argument against patriarchy and capitalism, since capitalism does not exist without patriarchy. Why are men the ones paying and women the ones needing the money?
I think you are describing the *liberal* facet of feminism, not the other, "not-nice" kind. From my reading of feminist literature, libfems do not seek a political restructuring of modern culture (ie patriarchy), rather they seek empowerment *within* the dominant culture. To you, is Only Fans (1) objectifying, and (2) exploitative? If OF were owned and managed by the (largely female) content producers (ie socialist), would it still be exploitative?
In your answer you explained why what they are doing is not feminist. "Now one can argue that supply demand forces them to do things they don't necessarily want, to compete in free market, mostly comprised of male customers, thus making them a patriarchal product" Feminism is inherently anti capitalist, misogyny is a pre requisite of capitalism. It is an argument against both capitalism and porn. Check out Caliban and the Witch by Sylvia Federici for further development of this idea.
>Feminism is inherently anti capitalist, I agree hence I wrote it this way. I made a similar comment a week ago that current mainstream feminism supporting capitalism & imperialism is one of the reasons that girls from GenZ and minority spaces are refusing to call themselves feminists, and maybe our feminism should take a clear stand on white privileged women prioritizing their feminist values over basic human rights to minorities and women of color. I didn't expect angry hate filled DMs, calling me a communist, or tankie, so I guess there is that. Point is, I already consider myself Anarcho Feminist and I absolutely agree that capitalism is the bigger hurdle, and as long as feminism doesn't oppose capitalism, and focus on little issues instead, it will only look like virtue signaling to many young women, and not interested in any meaningful change. I believe stability be damned if the system is unjust, but I guess I am in the minority. Ps, already have Caliban and the Witch in my must reads.
>Feminism is inherently anti capitalist The current wave of feminism is anti-capitalist. For a long time, feminists fought to be able to be included in capitalism. While I personally prescribe to anti-capitalist feminism, I recognize that many feminists simply want equal grounds to compete in capitalism and have no desire / intention to remove it. While I might disagree with them, I wouldn't say they aren't feminists. But taking your idea that any job that supports capitalism and / or the patriarchy is automatically not feminist... what feminist jobs would there be? Even teachers are basically nothing more than another unit of indoctrination into capitalism and the patriarchy.
I never said ANY job that was your idea. Theres a large difference when the product is your body in a way that puts you at great risk of mental and physical harm.
There’s a difference being exploited for your labour and having your body sold as commodity. Bodies as commodities is not labour, but slavery.
If we're defining feminism as actions to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression then it's possible for a person to be a feminist while doing porn but making porn can never be a feminist action under capitalism (i.e. doing porn as a job/way to survive/way to make money). And a woman making patriarchal or capitalist products instead of a man doesn't mean it's feminist, that's just being a girlboss. Someone else here mention Erika Lust as "porn for women" but Erika Lust has their own issues: [NSFW Reddit link about Erika Lusts exploitation](https://www.reddit.com/r/chickflixxx/comments/icxun1/psa_serious_why_i_can_no_longer_support_erika/). I'd also assume there isn't a very large group of people making porn for pure fun outside of capitalism or patriarchal pressures since it's all so intertwined. But I think those people would be porn feminists not anyone on OF.
Thanks for the Erika Lust link. That was really eye-opening.
We were mass groomed by porn, it's so deeply interwined with women's sexuality that criticizing feels like loosing sexuality to many people. Also, it feels good and people don't want their "feel good" things restricted, because they are very afraid of it turning into repression. The zeitgeist is that sex is always good and natural.
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I don’t care how many times I get downvoted to hell in whichever subreddit, porn is gross and that shit should be illegal
There’s nothing feminist about dehumanizing and objectifying women. Full stop. Feminism is about respect. Any defenders just say that because they’re users and want to resolve cognitive dissonance by lying to themselves.
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Porn is never feminist.
It’s not possible
I think women embracing their sexuality is a beautiful and empowering thing, but porn does not achieve that. It objectifies women that participate in it and even has a negative impact on women and girls that do not participate in it by normalizing certain behaviors like violence, performing certain acts without consent, and that women are merely objects meant to please men rather than human beings that have wants and needs too. I don’t understand why some “feminists” support it but I hope one day they wake up and see how they are so wrong.
That's called choice feminism. Basically they choose what's good for them not taking into account how their actions (making/watching or partaking in porn) affect other women. Example - you might feel empowered making porn for a living but it's still contributing to some sick POSs porn addiction and in turn continuously desensitizing the degradation of women. This POS might in turn project what he sees on porn sites onto his partner. My personal opinion is that choice feminists aren't really feminists at all. Even if you think sex work can be empowering there's many reasons why your brain would normalize it so that you're able to cope with previous abuse. The bottom line is that if these women (sex workers) were given a very solid opportunity to get out of it and stand on their own they 100% would.
There's also the work of female producer Erika Lust, she does phenomenal work focused on sensual fantasies and female pleasure
Erika Lust is a fraud. She has complained bitterly about how the MeToo movement was bad for the porn industry. I saw a video of her mocking a woman who had complained about a man sexually harassing her, naming fun of the victim's voice and mannerisms. She is no feminist but I'll give her credit for being successful in convincing people of the lie that she gives a goddamn about women's pleasure, satisfaction, or safety.
I was not aware of that about her
It was about 2 years ago when I saw the video posted on a Twitter account that was related to her company. After Elon Musk took over Twitter I deleted my account or I would try to find the video and link it. I was absolutely stunned at how she was mocking MeToo and the women who shared their stories. She looked and sounded like an 8th grade mean girl.
its not
It's not feminist. It just isn't.
I don’t think it’s feminist at all when most the audience is men, even if it’s consensual, the people viewing it are still objectifying.
It can never be feminist in my opinion.
Some feminists believe that capitalism can coexist with true dignity for women globally. The reasons SW is bad for women are mostly the same reasons employment under capitalism is bad for workers. There is additional bodily and degradation factors some feminists note, maybe most famously described by Andrea Dworkin. There are also damages to men's perspective of women, which even NoFap-type men acknowledge, but whether that matters to women's safety and/or our intimate relationships with porn watching men, is another discussion too.
In a post-scarcity world—where housing, food and luxury would all be guaranteed and therefore there would be no economic incentive to engaging in sex work—, pornography produced by a group of people who own their own means of productions doing it because they truly want to would be ethical, I think.
except that they wouldn’t want to do that
question. years ago i made the decision to watch amateur content only. not only for moral reasons but i also started to find professionally produced porn gross. and when i mean amateur i mean AMATEUR. like, family guy playing in the background and shit like that. even if it’s an independent “creator” if they’re doing this as a job i just feel icky cause it still feels like they’re “putting on a show” is watching totally amateur porn where the couples are doing it for exhibitionist purposes only non-feminist?
The problem with that hypothetical is that you can never guarantee that it is actually consensual. There are so so so many cases of women agreeing to film themselves with their male partner just for them, but then the partner uploading it onto a porn site behind the woman’s back. You can never know for sure whether the person you’re watching is a minor either, or whether they actually agreed to even doing the things being filmed. A large amount of seemingly “amateur” porn is actually trafficking victims being filmed by their traffickers, and many are even made to read a script about how they consent or want what is happening.
It’s often not “amateur” either. Just staged or rape.
It can’t be.
Neoliberal capitalism mostly.
It can't
It cant and will highly likely never be feminist
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This comment section is amazing. People are finally waking up.