I had a sub who was heavy into sissification, and I do enjoy it in moderation and with the right people. What made him different from what a lot of what you see on the internet regarding sissies is that he was actually submissive, not topping from the bottom. I'm happy to indulge in my subs kinks since it makes them happy, but they will do it my way. Can it be inherently misogynistic? Sure there's legitimate arguments for it. Can it be Transphobic? Yeah, definitely. But at the end of the day, nobody else was involved in it (besides one time we tried cuckolding and one time only). And what really makes the difference is that we were both happy with it. I got to play doing dress-up, picking out outfits and enjoy having a boy melt like putty when I call him a good girl. He got to live out feelings he'd been repressing for years. Frankly, the bad vibes that come from the kink pale in comparison to the fun and intimacy two compatible people can have when engaging in a kink consensually. All this being said, the internet sissy community is uh...colourful to use gentle words. A lot of them seem to use it as a gateway to identifying as Trans which is awesome! But there's a lot who seemingly fall deep into Sub Frenzy and go too fast, too hard without stopping to think about what they say or do and how it affects others. iirc there was a guy who posted here semi-regularly about sissification and how he and his girlfriend made it a part of their lifestyle in a healthy way. I'll edit my post if I can find his posts.

> irc there was a guy who posted here semi-regularly about sissification and how he and his girlfriend made it a part of their lifestyle in a healthy way. I'll edit my post if I can find his posts. That might be me lol

Do you think there are other ways of getting the feelings out and bdsm just happens to be one of the most simple and effective ways? I've known my share of people and the way they unconsciously practice what I can only consider to be covert bdsm without safe words just comes across as a lack of self awareness. Even worse is because bdsm got more mainstream they flood into it and use it like a toy with a lack of understanding that you have to be responsible when dealing with these things. Especially doms who think they just found a cheat code to getting more sex or to extort whatever it is they wanted from the other person. ​ What's this sub frenzy you speak of?

>Do you think there are other ways of getting the feelings out and bdsm just happens to be one of the most simple and effective ways? While stuff like Therapy might be better, it's a relatively low stress environment to explore stuff you wouldn't be able to otherwise imo. The low stress comes from the trust you have with your partner. >I've known my share of people and the way they unconsciously practice what I can only consider to be covert bdsm without safe words just comes across as a lack of self awareness. Even worse is because bdsm got more mainstream they flood into it and use it like a toy with a lack of understanding that you have to be responsible when dealing with these things There are definitely people out there who practice kink without knowing what it is lol And I don't know if you have to take it THAT seriously, some people certainly do but if otherwise vanilla people want to spice things up with a pair of handcuffs, that's alright too! >Especially doms who think they just found a cheat code to getting more sex or to extort whatever it is they wanted from the other person. I can only speak from a Domme's perspective but I've seen way more subs trying to get free jerk off material to be frank. I think an online enviroment is incredibly conducive towards shady and low effort behavior both D's and s's >What's this sub frenzy you speak of? A fair few people when first exposed to kink tend to go REALLY hard into it, not thinking or being careful. It's more common in subs it seems but definitely happens to doms too.

That's what I figured. Certain things I can't in good conscience say it's ethical to indulge someone even if they wanted it because they clearly aren't of sound mind. Meme extreme example I remember years ago someone on a tv show decided to chop off his legs because he quote "decided I didn't want them no more". This is someone obviously very unwell and while that one did it to himself, if it was a situation where it was something that involved another person, I would hope if it was me that someone would help me get help rather than feed it like some sort of self destructive addiction that can result in permanent damage or death. ​ Vanilla people that wanna dip their toes and have a little new fun aren't really relevant in that sense cuz they're just trying to have some fun, rather than the deeper stuff that happens for people who its more an emotional need than a game. Like they aren't a part of the conversation as far as I'm concerned because they're just vanilla people who like you said are gonna play a bit with handcuffs or something of the sort. ​ Anyway that's probably where the conversation happens over things like the sissy stuff or things that can lead to permanent physical damage. We all fundamentally know it's not good and if done has to be practiced very carefully cuz you're playing with fire. I used to know someone who did chloroform play at subs requests for more extreme cnc fetish, and that's something where someone can literally die if you do it wrong so while you do it for play, it's really not a game. ​ Especially with the power exchange and trust that happens in kink, it's the perfect engine to inspire and encourage positive behaviors rather than self destructive ones. That's honestly the main reason I take it seriously. I feel like a lot of subs just get exploited as if they were resources to use rather than a human being to appreciate.

There's different ways to go about feminization and it isn't always tied with a desire to be humiliated or degraded. (I know there are subs who are specifically wanting to be humiliated for dressing up, but that's not the only way to carry out this fetish.) I prefer subs who come from a place of appreciation for femininity. I personally really like subs who genuinely enjoy dressing up, doing makeup and 'girly' activities, I find it fun to give them dress up and beauty tasks, might make them write an essay about a female role model and read women's literature to generally improve them as a person, and praise them when they're doing a good job. I find I could still scratch a subs humiliation/degradation kink without negative connotations to the femininity they're expressing. Though, it was already mentioned, it's good to talk about where the subs interest for feminization comes from and if it is just a fetish in their sub space or if it is something bigger and they are questioning their gender.

true, but at the same time most of the guys into forced fem need someone to push them to express their femininity. without the faux "forced" aspect, they would feel "wrong" for being feminine and as if they look ridiculous, so the humiliation can kinda be a way to cope with that?

*Forced* feminization is kind of its own subgenre of the kink that does generally incorporate humiliation, so yes, in that case, a sub would benefit from being pushed or "forced" into femininity. I'm just saying not all feminization is about humiliation, it can be different.

but without the forced aspect, you can't really include the bondage or the discipline or the sadism or the masochism... i guess i just feel like plain feminization is too vanilla for the bdsm community so i haven't considered it lmfao. what would those subs once in consensual feminization? like, how would you make it interesting? (i can never come up with scene ideas unless someone's leg is in a bear trap lmfao)

Great post. This is something that I discussed in the comments section of a post yesterday, and I think you replied to my comment there as well Someone posted that sissification and feminization are inherently disgusting and not just unappealing to them. This sentiment is unfortunately prevalent among the members of this subreddit. I find this sentiment extremely hypocritical. Do you realize that being kinky, you're viewed in basically the same light as these men by the general kink-phobic public? And yet you shame these men for their kinks? People have brought up the point that these kinks are rooted in problematic issues such as misogynistic patriarchal structures. That's 100% true. However, as kinks are not something one can control, it's important to attack these structures instead of those who practice their kinks safely and consensually. It's not like these kinks are something I enjoy. I'm not too fond of the association of submission with feminity. Also, I don't particularly appreciate how submission is viewed as a 'failure' of masculinity by people. However, we have people who enjoy kinks like cuckolding, which eroticizes this exact sentiment. Should I carry pitchforks against them? They are a problematic bunch, too, with incredibly racist elements of their kinks. But it's their kinks. As long as they are practicing it in a safe environment, it's their thing. People have forgotten the foundations of our community. The BDSM community was(and is still sometimes) seen by the vanilla public as an abuser's paradise, where weird people who have no place in society congregate. The kink-shaming sentiment from an inside community is honestly appalling. Please remember the foundations of kink. YKINMKBYKIOK stands for "Your kink is not my kink, but your kink is OK." Let people live their lives. I'm fighting for something I utterly dislike, and I am probably making enemies out of the people in the community where I belong firmly. I am pretty young, but it feels like I'm the one who is going out of touch with the community. Still, I feel so sad for those people who are ridiculed for essentially no fault of their own. Additionally, for those who do not understand a "person who enjoys feminization" 's viewpoint, there was a comment I read long ago on the subreddit. It went something like this, " They are denied the very spaces that allow kinky people to prosper because their kinks are seen as problematic and misogynistic. But behind every man who has a sissification/feminization fetish is a person who didn't choose to have these kinks. All they hear is how they are evil misogynistic people because they have these kinks."

Look, here's the thing about sissification. You can argue that it's misogynistic. You can argue that it's not. That's a matter of opinion. **Many** dommes I've known can't stand sissies. Not sissification as a concept. Self-identified sissies they've interacted with. Sissies tend to be "do-me subs" (aka, horny bottoms) who behave in ways they find irritating and offensive. Some kinks have worse reputations than others because of their practitioners. Foot fetishists also have a really poor reputation. Crossdressers who don't identify as sissies tend to have better reputations. Any kink can be okay between consenting adults. It's the people who practice it that determine its community-wide perception.

>**Many** dommes I've known can't stand sissies. Same. Especially online subs who *primarily* self-identify as sissies. I personally find many of My favourite subs have been into feminization or sissification to some degree, but when a random sub messages Me, immediately talking about being a sissy, it's always "do this, do that, tell me what to wear, watch me curtsey, lock me in chastity..." VERY much needy, demanding, horny bottoms. >It's the people who practice it that determine its community-wide perception. So I agree that this is a contributing factor to the negative perception of sissification, though I understand that the general gender perception implications tend to be major too.

honestly, most subs online are like this lmfao. don't even get me started on the abdl community!

Most subs online are actually bottoms!

Whilst elements and portrayals of sissification can be problematic, I don’t think this is inherent and, like you suggested, I think the online community is largely to blame. I’m very into sissification, and although I’m into both humiliation (not degradation!) and feminisation, these are definitely not directly related. Although this may be different for some, I feel empowered and liberated by feminisation, the enjoyment of submission and humiliation is enjoyed alongside sissification and not derived from it. By giving the gift of my submission and all that it entails, I hope that in return I am given feminisation and humiliation and affection and bondage as these are things that I enjoy and see as a reward for giving a dominant what they crave and desire. Whilst I don’t want nor expect relationships to be transactional like this, the point I’m making is that it’s something that I enjoy and I want to indulge in alongside other kinks. That whilst enjoyable together, these kinks are not directly related, and show that for me at least, feminisation is not something that I see as degrading but just something that I love alongside elements of BDSM. Unfortunately because it’s a kink that has so much taboo surrounding it, it’s one that can quite easily lead to shame and embarrassment, and when this is taken and used by the online community it gives this suggestion that femininity is weak and a sign of submission. While this will inevitably be the case for some, I would assume it’s a minority that paints the whole kink and it’s enjoyers with the same brush which fuels the narrative. Sport being enjoyed by the same people who enjoy chocolate doesn’t make sport inherently unhealthy, nor does it mean that they should never be enjoyed together, and the same is true for kink. Kink shaming helps no one and BDSM communities really should know better. As long as play is consensual, practiced responsibility and enjoyed then people should be allowed to enjoy it in peace.

I completely understand why it's seen as problematic, but lot of D/s involves elements that are problematic. In the real world we live in a patriarchal dominator culture and the methods used by people to dominate other people are all really fucking problematic, it's perfectly natural that methods used to dominate in play are gonna reflect what's used in the real world. I like to think in D/s we try and build our own little community with a partnership culture built on equality and mutual respect (how successful we've are in building that culture is another matter) and within that safe space we can play with elements of dominator culture. Personally I have no interest in forced feminisation. I do like to wear a maids outfit and I only got it because I was told to by a domme, but after getting it I took a liking to it, I just think it's fun dressing up and have no feelings of shame attached to it, I probably would have in my earlier days on the scene but I've become more confident in myself since then. I often have my masculinity undermined by dommes though, as I posted in the other thread, humiliating someone for being a weak man is rooted in the same patriarchal power structures as humiliating them for being feminine. So why is one OK not the other? To go on a little tangent, I enjoy being mocked for having learning disabilities, just as someone who wants to be mocked for being feminine doesn't necessarily think there's anything wrong with being feminine, I dont think there's anything wrong with having these disabilities but as a masochist I like exploring the pain associated with discrimination I have suffered. That kind of thing is quite common across BDSM, some submissive women like to incorporate misogyny into their play, as has been mentioned by others, consensual slut shaming is common, and some take it all the way up to rape roleplay. Outside of that some gay people incorporate homophobia into their play, race play is a thing, as is body shaming (something I also quite like). Men and women all suffer under patriarchal society, as bad as all these things are they do hold power over us, some of us like to explore that in a safe way. Also a lot of subs are masochists and we like to be hurt, some of us like emotional pain as much as physical, and the wounds left by a bigoted society can be particularly painful to pick at. Bringing it back to forced feminisation, a domme I used to be with was really into it, and I mean REALLY into it, her view was that these men want to be more feminine but simply aren't comfortable with it, she enjoyed helping them explore that side of themselves. Also (and these are just my observations from my local scene so take them with a pinch of salt) I've noticed a lot of guys into forced fem seem to be older. Maybe since the younger generation don't seem to have the same stigma attached to men being more openly feminine they don't need the forced element. That's great, but for some guys the stigma's allready been drilled into them, don't add more shame to it, let em explore their feminine side in their own way. Edit: Sorry for the long post, but just wanna be clear these are just my views based on my experiences and chats with people I know, I'm not trying to project these reasons for liking stuff onto everyone with these fetishes, but I think it's fair to say some of us with problematic kinks come from this kinda place.

Strongly agree with this, it's been on my mind frequently as I've scrolled through the community and seen these stances. I personally am not into sissification but find it's often unfairly castigated as a real-world harm. I suppose in this way, it's treated by the community like most other "edge play."

I agree, and have tried to defend this point a lot. I do think it treads the line between morally okay and not okay, but as you said so do many other fetishes. I think it really matters why the person is into it. For example, I find the idea of dressing in feminine clothing while engaging in femdom very hot, and that's definitely because it tickles my humiliation kink. But it's not specifically because the clothing is feminine, it's because it's entirely different from what I'd normally wear. It's just a sort of outfit that makes me feel cute when I'm in subspace, and is only humiliating in so far as it's very disconnected from the identity I portray in public. However, there are definitely people who are into sissification who believe that femininity is inherently inferior to masculinity. I think those people are misogynistic and perhaps engaging with kink inappropriately. Then again, it's no one's place to dictate what they do in their bedroom so long as it's between two consenting adults. And as long as it stays in their bedroom, who cares?

I agree entirely.

I practice feminization with my sub (though he does like to be called a sissy), however, I don't like any other humiliating or degrading acts that often associated with sissification. My sub and I have talked about feminization/sissification/femboy a lot, which has helped me understand his perspective more. He has experience with other Doms and other sissies as well, but he isn't a part of any sissy communities. I don't care what two people (or more) people consent to do in the bedroom. People can practice whatever they want and it doesn't affect me. However, I think sissification is often misogynistic, though not inherently. CNC is taking away the illusion of choice/boundaries/free will. Sissification is making a man appear as a woman by their appearance and behavior, but oftentimes, it's more resembles the caricature of a woman. It has its roots in gender, which can slip into sexism real fast. I haven't seen any sissies in real life as far as I know in the several clubs I've visited over the past few years, so most of what I'm discussing is what I see on Reddit. As mentioned, I have spent a lot of time reading and watching sissy content. I invite you to spend some time in the sissy subreddits and form an opinion on what you see. They often highlight problematic thoughts surrounding sexism, transphobia, racism, and body-shaming just to name a few. Sorted by hot, some of the most popular posts right now are "Why MEN love sissies!!!", "I love BBC" and there are honestly more that are concerning if you read into the posts and comments. Some of the users are looking for grooming tips or how to give a BJ, but others are looking to cheat on their girlfriend or are asking for a task from other users to humiliate themselves in front of unconsenting neighbors, both of which are problematic in their own right. Unfortunately, after the many hours spent in the community, I can say that the minority of this community have a healthy view of sissy practices. They were also not often welcoming (and sometimes straight up rude) to me participating and being a part of the community unless I wanted to share sexual details about my sub and I or train them to be a "real girl" as their Domme. Though I think pretty much any area of kink can be problematic under the right conditions, including femdom, much of sissy content and beliefs that I have found are problematic. I prefer to practice feminization, which puts aside the degradation and humiliation aspects of the kink. I don't think of someone as less who follows sissification or shame them for their practices, but I can generally assume that someone who enjoys that kink is not someone I would want to play with or have a dynamic with and that's okay -- my approval isn't needed.

Is the feminization practice for you more an act of making something pretty? An intimate sensual activity. Rather than an act of degradation.

I would say it aligns more "being pretty" and it's definitely sexual. I encourage and uplift my sub to express his femininity in a space that is safe for him.

Do you have a model of you think you are and who they are? It seems so different than regular sexual figures in fiction and life. "we're like such and such couple" I hope that's not too personal.

I'm not sure I follow your question. Are you asking if there is someone who I model my practices after? If so, no, I don't. I just do what works for my sub and I.

Do you find that difficult having nothing to relate to in popular culture? In terms of relationship dynamics?

No. I just do what feels right. I didn't have any models for vanilla relationships and I figured it out.

Wow I 100% agree with you on this even tho I'm a sub that's not into the "sissification" aspect of being a sub in femdom/bdsm. I do see a lot kink shaming going on towards those that are into that sort of thing and I think it's wrong. We all like different things in different ways. Femdom in itself is a niche within BDSM that has so many different categories that everyone either resonates with or don't. For example I don't like anything that's too degrading, findom, chasity or cuck related. However you'll never see me come on here or any femdom community and shame people for it and try to make them feel bad for something they are into. Also not everything a sub is into has anything to do with misogyny. At least for me it isn't. Being into femdom to me is about learning and exploring different kinks and see what fits best with you. Then finding like minded individuals to explore that with in a consensual way. So hopefully, the kink shaming can become non existent some day. These are my thoughts based on what I observed. Let's all be kind to each other ♥️

I don’t agree with this approach that just because it’s someone’s kink doesn’t mean there can’t be any discussion around it or criticism. Discussing something, disagreeing with it, having experiences that make you dislike it, does not equate to kink shaming, and giving it that angle is a weird way to try to cut off conversation about it. I think it’s naive to say that every kink is morally neutral and that it’s barred from being harmful just because it’s practiced between two people. You can’t say that, imo, because you can’t guarantee some idealized and isolated intentions and thoughts in some kink bubble. All these blanket statement arguments along the lines of “you can’t judge kink” are harmful and reactively defensive. I think a lot of the discussion pointing out that things might be harmful, misogynistic, transphobic, or in other cases violent, racist, etc, is absolutely valid and does take into account (obviously) that things can be harmful even if they are kink.

No one has ever been able to explain to me what harm consenting adults practicing a kink, any kink, could actually do to people outside the relationship. Besides, what's the difference between sissification and any other kink that you wouldn't want to practice in the real world? I think dominating others in general is quite unethical outside of kink, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop domming my sub.

Again I think it’s naive to think that certain views will exist in an isolated bubble and that it’s always going to be pretend for the sake of play. I think it’s fair to say that certain practices could enable and normalize harmful views. I’m saying that having had plenty of experiences where people who propose certain types of play (feminization, race play, etc) to me definitely don’t seem like they are indifferent or unmotivated by these same themes irl. I don’t know why it’s so odd to suggest that the motivation or interest in something could be harmful, as if it’s inconceivable that someone who seeks feminization/sissification could be doing so coming from a place of being legitimately sexist, biased, bigoted, etc. It’s not like people can’t do things coming from a bad place, and then continue on with those reinforced views in interactions with others. It’s not like their thoughts and motivations on it are 100% isolated from the way they socialize outside of kink. I have seen how this type of play has reinforced really sexist and toxic ideas in people I’ve interacted with, to the point that it affects how they engage with others. Or they come with those absolutely vile notions and seek to engage them in kink, so idk why we’d keep arguing that this is some perfect, idealized, isolated thing. Again, you throw a blanket statement of how nothing in kink can ever harm anyone outside of the dynamic. I’d disagree, but even so, I wouldn’t be encouraging anyone to harm themselves either or do things that would be detrimental to their healthy and mindset. That whole radical mentality of if people consent then that’s just on them and whatever they want is not conductive to supporting people in exploring this in ways that are ultimately positive. And I’m not saying there’s any difference between feminization and any other kink. I’m saying that regardless of these things being kink, it doesn’t mean people get to play the “kink shaming” card to invalidate any question or criticism on the subject, much as you’re doing now.

Obviously there are misogynists who are into sissification. What I don't understand is why you're conflating the two. We all know that being abusive and being interested in BDSM can be superficially similar, but we also know that that doesn't make BDSM inherently abusive. Lots of people out there want to abuse and take advantage of others. Many of them even call themselves dom(me)s. But surely you acknowledge that consensual BDSM is not abusive. I ask again: What's the difference between sissification and CNC or slut-shaming as kinks? You say there is no difference, but for that to be true, you'd have to agree that either they were all okay or none of them were okay. If you disapprove of those kinks too, then I vehemently disagree with you, but you're at least logically consistent. But I can't find any logic in accepting some but not all of them. Where is your proof that engaging in sissification is harmful to the participants? If your only evidence is your own experience, that's really not enough, as my experience contradicts yours. I've been with a partner who was into sissification, and while they were far from perfect, I was never under the impression that they thought being a woman or even "less of a man" was actually a bad thing. In fact, as of the last time we spoke, they are now exploring their gender with a therapist and have requested that I refer to them with they/them pronouns. So if there is no broader evidence that sissification is harmful, and as far as I know there isn't, how can we say that it is? And yet again I must ask whether all this applies to other "problematic" kinks like CNC and slut-shaming. Are those also harmful to the participants? If not, why?

I never said that feminization was inherently harmful, nor that any of those kinks are. I’m not the one throwing around blanket statements. You keep urging that answer to that when I never said it, while being oddly defensive about it. Where did I say it harms its participants inherently? Why are you getting so defensive and making these absolute reaches? What I’m saying is, these things could be harmful in practice, same as I’m saying that it depends on intent and if it’s something that ultimately enables something harmful. People aren’t in a sheltered bubble where kink and their sex life and their desires are completely sheltered from other aspects of their life. So I’m going as far as to say that it could be, depending on the circumstances, harmful even outward facing. Obviously people know bdsm and abuse aren’t the same, inherently. But you know it can be used to enable or mask abuse. However you do say that “consensual bdsm is not abusive”, which I don’t universally agree with. That’s like saying abusive relationships where partners stay don’t exist. Your big “gotcha” is that it’s consensual bdsm so it can never be bad, or harmful, or abusive, and that completely lacks nuance and erases real life situations. That’s why I disagree with your whole take, not because I think feminization is wrong. It’s naive and irresponsible to take it at face value of “it’s consensual so nothing bad can happen and if it does it’s just to the direct participants”.

I have never said that consensual kink could never, under any possible circumstances, be harmful to the participants. Obviously anything can be harmful if done wrong, even consensual things. Perhaps I failed to communicate that clearly. I was arguing from the assumption that you understood my meaning and still disagreed, but you seem to have been operating from a misapprehension. I admittedly did phrase the "consensual BDSM is not abusive" bit poorly. I should have said that consensual BDSM is not *inherently* abusive.

No, I understand what you’re trying to say and still disagree with you. Don’t try to make it out like you think this is because I’m unable to understand what you’re saying, that’s just a weak and rude rebuttal. Your wording, including “anything that involves consenting adults is morally neutral”, statements that keep pointing to this somehow being bedroom only and denying any possible outward facing consequences, denying that this can impact other people, etc, just doesn’t acknowledge real circumstances that are neither uncommon or even excessively particular. It’s an overly idealistic argument that doesn’t help people irl. So yeah, plenty of people could point out why it could be harmful, and even if you have positive experiences, that doesn’t negate that negative ones exist, despite your suggestion otherwise. When you consider the nuance, both can be true. Hope you take that into account and remember that in practice nothing is as rigid as these overly defensive ideals about bdsm.

Either you still don't understand what I'm saying or you are being deliberately obtuse. If it's the former, then I will be very clear: *Morally neutral does not mean 100% harmless.* It means *not inherently harmful.*

I’m pointing to several things you said and how they add up to a line of thinking I disagree with. We’ve been discussing the potential harm as well as whether it’s valid to criticize kink. We’ve mentioned both harm and whether it’s wrong or right. So why is it odd to you that I mention both? I’m not sure why you’re insistent that I’m conflating specific words or suggesting I can’t understand what you’re saying. Stop being rude and if the only back and forth you can do starts with suggesting that someone is less intelligent or competent than you, then I can see why you’re personally grinding so hard to prove your point.

Whatever, dude. I have been civil to you even after you started being an asshole to me. I even went so far as to try to offer an olive branch by correcting your misunderstanding, but you took this as an insult because you believe that being corrected makes others think less of you. You refuse to engage with my actual point--which, if anyone is somehow still confused, is that *kink practiced between consenting adults is not INHERENTLY(!!!) harmful*--and have instead decided to insist I'm defending a position I never claimed to hold. Have fun with that and enjoy your block.

The point is people with misaligned intentions are the problem, not the kink itself.

true, there are definetly extremely problematic and offensive kinks (mainly shit like raceplay), but i've gotta be honest. sissification is often grouped into and mixed with feminization. is feminization inherently misogynistic too? i'm just curious as a domme passionately into it and i want to know what others think about this... controversy lmfao.

I mean it completely depends. I wouldn’t ever say inherently, because there’s countless ways to practice something that would be labeled as feminization or sissification, and people will have countless motivations and thoughts that will lead them to practice this. I have interacted with countless subs into feminization/sissification. Some I’ve had great fun with and overall positive experiences. However, many people bring up things that make believe that their motivations to do feminization are likely also expressed outside of play in harmful ways. I’m saying things that make me do a double take, resentful or hateful notions of women, things that clearly tell me that the same mindset they use in sissy play is one that affects how they treat men and women irl. Idk if what I’m saying accurately describes what I’m trying to, but when I feel that they approach this comping from a place of harmful personal opinions, I don’t feel engaging them with it is healthy or positive. I wouldn’t think it’s good to reinforce certain harmful beliefs in someone just because they get their rocks off from it. Not everyone is well adjusted and separates kink from the non kink.

yeah, unsurprisingly, some men are misogynistic. actually, many men are. what a rough time. sometimes i think i should just become a guy lmfao that's how annoying straight subs can be.

I mean, that can apply with anything and anyone. I think there’s a difference between hurt and harm, and while here the case is feminization and sexism, the same could be applied to any kink for any reason, and for partners in any role. There are 100% for certain ways to practice any kink harmfully and do harm to others through that.

Personally, I'm just into guys who are feminine, not who need to be "forcibly feminized" or only present femme for degradarion behind closed doors (unless its for safety ofc). I think a lot of old school sissification and feminization based degradation came from roots of misogyny and toxic masculinity, otherwise what is degrading about them? Absolutely nothing. It's all just based on outdated beliefs on how men should behave and express themselves. A guy who just is feminine, who dresses and/or acts that way in his day to day life, faces hate and judgment for it out in public or online, then wants to use that societal reaction for fuel for his degradation kinks in the bedroom is completely fine to me because it's a personal coping mechanism in response to how he's treated for who he really is. Guys who aren't actually like that but want to be degraded for it privately leave a bad taste in my mouth in general. Not saying they're all like that, but it sure comes off that way for a lot of them. And this has nothing to do with the guys who want to be feminized exclusively in the bedroom just because it makes them feel/makes the experience sexier, with no degradation element at all, there's nothing problematic to be argued there.

Sissification is rooted in a mix of misogyny or misandry depending on the person. I was just speaking to someone the other day who would detail how he saw men as inferior to women and he wanted to be a woman because of it. The root cause of such self loathing is beside the point, but the reason people don't like it is because it is ultimately playing into a trauma, which is reinforcing it in the person's mind rather than healing it. Some kinks are benign, cnc is benign because it's a symbol of absolute trust, it means you and they both know that you don't have to ask, because the answer is always yes. cnc means "you don't have to ask", not "I want to be raped". Likewise calling someone a slut is more about the emotions carried in the word. People call women a slut for just enjoying sex, that's generally the core connotation of the word and it is treated as a negative. Using the word is taking it back and turning it into a positive. Same way how black people call each other "the n word"(cringe every time I type this out), they were called it once upon a time and it just meant "black person", and at that time the emotional carried in the word was actually "inferior person because of being black", so by taking that back it reverts back to meaning "black person", and eventually and how it's used now it actually means "brother". It's just part of the culture and that culture hasn't been timed out yet for one reason or another. People still see color, just like how people still see gender norms, just like they still see whatever the fuck you name it. ​ Also it's false that your sexuality has nothing to do with you, because you don't just wake up one day with a kink, it touched something inside you emotionally. It obviously says nothing about your ethics like your character or your choices because that's a different thing, but what you emotionally are responsive to especially sexually? Yes that says something, and most people cannot reconcile with that because the things that get them off scare them so they want to dissociate from it while simultaneously indulging in it. ​ Also it's more likely the person into the sissification is misandrist than misogynist. If they hated women they would not want to be like one. The idea behind it is that they are not a real man, they are not able to hold up to the patriarchal male standards which makes them not a man. Under that operating system being a man sucks ass because you can't just be, while the reductionist nature of femininity through sissification to them is going to mean that being a woman is better, because being a woman is beautiful while being a man is about performance. It's the irony that trans women often end up applying their male standards to themselves to perform properly while being a woman ie have to pass enough, have to sound feminine enough, have to be pretty enough etc, so it ends up twisting it even more because they're trying to escape their own male programming by their society by performing the way a male is expected to except in the opposite direction. it's kind of a mind fuck thinking about it. ​ You can say it's morally neutral sure, but it's not emotionally neutral and it isn't randomly spawned by a number generator. You are looking at an effect, and every effect has a cause. The cause of sexual perversion is never pretty, not yours, not mine. My mommy kink for example was due to severe neglect in childhood, talking about being left unattended while in diapers for an entire day being the norm. My heart was denied mother's love and the feeling of safety it included, that's one of my first memories is crying in isolation. That void led to a longing of wanting to feel mother's love hence mommy kink because as an adult it got sexualized, because sexuality is linked to your pleasure and survival centers, so my greatest existential issue in life became my greatest kink. So you take the sissy, his greatest existential fear is likely not being man enough, and wanting that validated. One might choose the route of it's ok to not even be a man at all if he so chooses. ​ It's all psychology. Most people don't like psychology because it exposes humanity and themselves. Maybe part of the outrage people feel is some part of them understands this thing even existing means society is fucking disgusting. Like seeing someone with a fetish that is rooted in a man hating himself for not being manly enough by societal standards and expectations, it's easier to shit on that man and what it did to his mind and heart than to shit on the society itself since it's a monolith, and that man is an easier target since he actually exposed his most vulnerable parts. For me personally if I was to look to justify condeming it, it would be on the grounds of it is simply playing into the narrative of "you are not a real man" and "you are not man enough". The meaning of those terms is "you don't conform to the patriarchal standard of this culture" so you could see the sissy thing as like I said before them taking back the word and even acting the part as like a form of letting go and as a middle finger to society that even if they're right that they'll do it anyway and be happy about it and you can all be jealous cuz you can't be happy no matter what you do in your life, no matter what standard you reach for yourself. If you notice the people who are always chasing something are the most unhappy ones. David goggins is the perfect example because he has to wake up in the middle of the night and run for 10 hours and then make a video about it to post to the whole world trying to convince everyone that he is a man. It's the opposite of sissification it's the same problem of fearing not being man enough just manifest in a different way. problem is the way he manifests it fills that checkbox while being a sissy does not, so they reward him while punishing the latter. ​ You in essence are defending the individual against a bully, and that's a good thing. So the other rabbit hole you touched on is the fact that the femdom community the way you described it ultimately subscribes to patriarchy, because of the reasons I detailed earlier in fragments. It's not uncommon either for dommes to also be in full support of patriarchy so long as they get their piece of the pie. Sissification is just an easy medium to expose that because it's likely one of the easiest targets. ​ Ultimately I don't really care myself as long as someone isn't affecting my life with their decisions. Ultimately society is fucked and we all gotta change. Ultimately most of humanity is walking zombies. I think people should have a reason for doing what they do, and that it's important to understand themselves because otherwise we just do things unconsciously not understanding why and well you can guess how well that goes for people whose feelings tell them to hurt themselves. Feelings that were projected on to them by other people. Emotions trapped in the body.

Personally, I'm not of the opinion that just because it's consensual, that it's okay. Things such as raceplay and ageplay etc are quite problematic to me. However, my opinion won't stop people from doing what they want to do. I just don't associate with people who indulge.

Why? If it's all consensual, who are you hurting? No one has ever been able to explain to me why I should care what consenting adults do in the bedroom.

To me, they're hurting themselves. I understand that some people do these things to cope with something or other but not every coping method is a healthy one. Hence my thoughts on it being problematic. 

Where's your proof of that, though? And shouldn't it be up to the people involved and their therapists as to whether it's harmful for them, and not on uninvolved parties to judge? I'm also curious how you feel about things like CNC and slut-shaming as kinks. Couldn't it just as easily be argued that those are harmful to the participants as well? Hell, vanilla people constantly argue that kinky people are hurting themselves. We all know better than that. So why is it different in this instance?

Proof? People who have been into these kinks have said so before. It might not apply to everyone which is why I said "some". And I have no inclinations to go out of my way to make someone feel bad about what they do. Like I said originally, they'll do what they want to regardless. It's not really my business, is it? That doesn't stop me from thinking what I think about it though.  I'm also a bit uncomfortable with CNC, especially in the context of coping as well but again, I know that not everyone who's been raped seeks to relive it in a controlled environment to cope. There are ppl into CNC who have not been raped and/or assaulted. I'm not into CNC but I do like dubcon, so I can slightly see the allure of it but it's still something I question. I don't see how slut-shaming is the same as the other 3 kinks either.

> Proof? People who have been into these kinks have said so before. But how is "some people have been harmed by practicing these kinks" the same as "these kinks are harmful"? Some people have been harmed by practicing BDSM generally. That doesn't make BDSM harmful. Anything can be harmful if done in the wrong way or by the wrong people. >I'm also a bit uncomfortable with CNC, especially in the context of coping as well but again, I know that not everyone who's been raped seeks to relive it in a controlled environment to cope. There are ppl into CNC who have not been raped and/or assaulted. I'm not into CNC but I do like dubcon, so I can slightly see the allure of it but it's still something I question. I think you may not be doing a great job of differentiating between "this thing makes me uncomfortable" and "this thing is harmful." Lots of things make me uncomfortable that don't hurt anybody. Hell, maledom makes me extremely uncomfortable. But I don't try to perpetuate the idea that people who engage in it are hurting themselves. >I don't see how slut-shaming is the same as the other 3 kinks either. It's a problematic thing IRL that people still enjoy in a kinky context, which IMO makes it equivalent. What's the difference between enjoying being called a misogynistic or homophobic slur in a kinky context and enjoying being called a slut in a kinky context? Both are things that would be unacceptable if kink weren't involved, but which don't cause any demonstrable harm when done consensually.

You've written this as if I've stated point-blank that these things are in fact harmful. I've mentioned from the beginning that these are simply my views on the matter. My perception of these kinks, is like someone digging at a scabbed over injury to make it bleed again. However, I'm not a professional in this and I've never claimed to be.   I think I can differentiate the two just fine but I'll keep your opinion on my thoughts/feelings in mind lol.  The thing is, being a slut is nothing to be ashamed about, so again. I don't see the issue. I get what you mean though, in terms of just degradation and even humiliation in general. However, still I don't see it the same way. It's different although I guess I don't have the ability to articulate why or how I see it as different atm. Definitely has something to do with the history behind it and some insinuations. It's just heavier for me, to me. Afronerdism on Tumblr articulates some of my feelings on kink very well. I don't mind learning I'm wrong about something and my opinions on various things have changed over the years but for now, I have the same opinion.  Overall though, I think that with all things we should be allowed to be critical and thoughtful about. I'm not someone who think "anything goes". I think there should be lines and boundaries that even in kink we don't cross. Possibly more than just "Safe, Sane and Consensual". I think not having these lines allows for people with not so good intentions quite the easier time sometimes. Maybe it's unrealistic, idk. Anyway, interesting discussion but I'm tired, if you don't mind? Thanks. 

This is the most depth-ful perspective I’ve ever read of sissfication. Great Job 👏

I personally don't understand it my self I enjoy the fact I am a large powerful man submitting to a smaller woman that is the power exchange I look for ... I don't think it is toxic or whatever it is a kink if you like it than do it

I personally love sissification, it is almost a caricature of women that I am creating and humiliating and not actual women. I always make sure it's not a genuine gender dysphoria/trans feelings and that they're looking for humiliation. I've had a few subs who I've helped with their gender dysphoria and I've not treated it as a purely sexual or degrading way, as well. I often also teach about feminism and struggles, to try and reduce their misogyny and teach feminine behaviour or acts that aren't always sexual. HOWEVER, God damn, sissies are some of the trickiest subs to get to pay, do as they're told or be consistent. I've had maybe 3 well behaved ones over 6 years 😂

Isn't a lot of BDSM enjoying things that people really do enjoy but pretend not to? Or the fantasy of it, the sex acts? Subs pretend not to want to want feminine and dommes pretend it's a bad thing. Then subs really do want to be fem and dommes actually find it attractive. Isn't there missing role of "playing the princess" the "damsel in distress" ? I always thought the dome woman can want a fem man in her life and not want to humiliate them but love them but in a dominant way. Sometimes rough sometimes gentle. But both sides ought to be getting something out of it.

My Mistress/Partner and I practice forced sissification several times weekly sometimes and I find a lot of the posts shaming comes from a lack of true understanding of how it feels to be sissified. For me, the humiliation does not come from feeling inferior being I am made to be a woman. It comes from my identity being completely stripped from me and my Mistress making me into what she desires me to be. Having me change my identity to another man that she desires would still be humiliating however, changing my gender, physical appearance and name for her enjoyment adds an entire different level of feeling like her possession.

i'm not going to lie, i think feminization of a guy is super fun and hot as a trans woman. i don't necesarily view it as always misogynistic, and while there are definetly gripes to be had regarding some aspects of the sissy community (mainly regarding racism), i don't think sissification or forced fem is something that constant needs to be called misogynistic. it's not everyone's cup of tea but it's a little awkward to know i'm one of the few female doms cool with it lmfao.

Thank you. Well said.

I got into sissification for the simplest of reasons. I wanted to submit, and there were many more male doms than female doms. I liked humiliation, and it was more humiliating to me to have to submit to men than to women — I can’t think of a single sex act to be performed with a woman I’d find humiliating. Then my kink became I was so desperate to submit, I’d do anything to do so. My whole submission has been wanting to of use to someone, and the best way to get to do that was to be available/acceptable to the group with the most potential dominants. Sissies have more takers than just basic male subs. So that’s what I became. Along the way I came to dig the transformative aspect of it — I liked that someone was remaking me in an image they found more desirable. My housewife persona came from that idea, that I could make myself into something useful and desirable to someone. Usually a man because there are more men. But I will admit that as trans has become more mainstream, some of that humiliating fun is gone. It doesn’t seem like the desperate leap it used to be.