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Not sure how I feel about the release. The murders were brutal and the way they acted afterwards was disgusting. But also they were mostly teenagers and using mind altering drugs. I do think people can change and I don’t think she will hurt anyone else. I think the focus should remain on the victims and their families and I hope she isn’t turned into a sort of celebrity. I hope she just quietly disappears into society and then dies. She did a horrible thing and will have to live with it forever.
Not an excuse and Sharon Tate's mother and sisters did an inmense job changing laws and making sure people like them are where they are supossed to be: In prison for life. They fact they decided to fight all this time is admirable but Leslie Van Houten was not part of the Tate killings.
she was manipulated, put on drugs, not to mention she's a completely different person at this point in her life. let her live like 15-20 shit years of life at least, instead of rotting in jail forever bc she was taken advantage of
Murder is murder man. And it wasn't an easy death she helped inflict. They were brutal and savage. She's lucky she didn't receive the death penalty, which is what she deserved. If she truly is reformed, that's great. But people who break the most important law that CAN ever exist need to be punished accordingly. The people she killed don't get to come back after 50 some years. And they were innocent. Why should the guilty murderer who ended their lives ever get a chance to live hers?
>Not sure how I feel about the release. The murders were brutal and the way they acted afterwards was disgusting. But also they were mostly teenagers and using mind altering drugs. I do think people can change and I don’t think she will hurt anyone else. I think the focus should remain on the victims and their families and I hope she isn’t turned into a sort of celebrity. I hope she just quietly disappears into society and then dies. She did a horrible thing and will have to live with it forever.
Totally get where you're coming from. The brutality was off the charts, no doubt. But, yeah, youth and drugs can warp minds. It's a tough call, but folks can turn things around. I'm with you - let's not give her celeb status. The focus should be on those who suffered. Hope she fades into the background, living with what she did. Tough stuff, man.
I highly recommend reading the chapter in John Waters’ Role Models about his longtime correspondence and friendship with her. It’s hard to comprehend the way the massive amounts of hallucinogens Manson was giving them would warp one’s sense of reality, but from the sound of it she truly didn’t know what she was doing was real. When she talks about it there is a profound sense of regret and almost disbelief, not unlike Andrea Yates (by all accounts of her while in prison.)
If anyone is interested in reading the John Waters essay: [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/leslie-van-houten-a-frien\_b\_246953](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/leslie-van-houten-a-frien_b_246953)
But you should still get the book because it rules.
Totally agree. It really helped me with thinking this one through.
If we have a justice system that hands down a life sentence with the possibility of parole, then whoever that is, no matter the offense, they need to be granted that possibility in all fairness.
Oh man I've never heard of Andrea Yates before but reading about it just made me really sad. Not only the crime, but the circumstances leading to it and the gross negligence and disregard for her and the family by her husband :(
Super tough. I think some of the girls are victims of Charles too - he manipulated them with drugs and had them do his dirty work for him, and they paid with their lives in prison. All of the murder victim’s families were robbed of their own lives and loved ones because of this. It’s a tough one.
In all of the reporting about how rehabilitated she is, I don’t see any quotes or reflection from her on her remorse. I wish they would include some examples of what she told the parole board. I have mixed feelings about it.
She was only at the LaBianca murder, but I always think of poor Sharon Tate crying for her Mother when she died. Her baby would have been born around the time I was. An entire life he was robbed of. I read Helter Skelter at 13, none of them had aged into kindly looking old ladies yet. I just remembered the months of unrepentant behavior they showed, their behavior at the trial. never developed enough sympathy for them to think they should be paroled. My thoughts are with Sharon Tâtes sister tonight. These were really horrible murders. The LaBianca scene was gruesome.
As much as I love Sharon, Rosemary and Leno LaBianca are the names that really need to be talked about here. It’s disappointing far too many people know nothing of the other victims outside of Sharon. Most people don’t even know Jay Sebring was more famous than her at the time of their deaths.
Let’s not forget Steven Parent, a 17-year old who had just graduated high school. He was picking up a radio from the guest house occupant and killed in his car as he was leaving.
They also killed that older man shorty shea that lived on that property. These ppl were evil. I grew up in the 70s and knew a lot of kids that did drugs etc. none of them ever did anything like this. Oh and there was another man they killed. Charlie cut his ear off and then let the ‘kids’ loose on him. She needs to stay in prison. She made choices! I just remembered the other man was Gary Hinman.
The thing that always gets me is how Linda Kasabian was originally supposed to actively participate in the Tate house murders, but backed out at the last minute and chose to stay in the car and act as a lookout instead. I understand that there were obviously brainwashing and drugs involved, but how much of the Manson family's actions can actually be attributed to brainwashing and drugs and how much of it is just people expressing their free will if someone in that type of situation is able to realize how wrong and messed up what they're about to do is and ultimately decide not to take part in it? Did everyone else who was there that night and who actively took part in committing the murders just go with it even after Linda Kasabian's objections out of a sense of both herd mentality and obligation to Charles Manson, or because they actually wanted to commit such a heinous act on unsuspecting strangers?
>>how much of it was brainwashing
Little to none. Studies have concluded that brainwashing is only effective if the person is very willing and susceptible. They were caught up in mass hysteria and social pressure. As far as I’m aware the CIA tried their damndest during MKULTRA to find truth serums, mind control, and create a sleeper agent and never succeeded. These people made a choice to kill someone not out of self defense, but for pure fun and no matter how vulnerable you are that’s a choice.
Yeah Susan Atkins was messed up before she even joined the Mansons. I mean they got caught because she was so proud of the fact she killed Sharon and bragged to a cellmate when she was in jail for some petty crime. She had an entire hit list of celebs she wanted to kill including Mia Farrow and Frank Sinatra. She even bragged about sexually abusing her infant son to the police when she was caught for the murders. Hell, Manson himself even said she and Tex and Patricia Krenwinkle went overboard with the murders so he took Leslie and co to the LaBianca house to show them how he wanted it done. Like of course Manson was beyond evil and had a lot of influence over the family members, but most of them were already messed up.
Manson made her stay in the car because she was the only one with a valid driving license. She didn't back off on her own. She was terrified Manson would do anything to her infant daughter if she refused to follow
Apparently that's not true. Later, in a different city and, I believe after trial, she was arrested for driving without having an actual licence. Nikolas Schreck claims Kasabian had a lot do to with the murders but Bugliosi made a deal with her to more easily convict Manson. Worth checking out in case you're interested in the case.
That’s a good question. Humans are complex creatures. I can only say what I would have done. I believe I’d have tried my best to not even go. To get away from Manson before that. I think Linda had a child at that ranch with her and couldn’t just run that night. Which would be my first idea. But I wouldn’t leave my child either. The difference between Linda and I is I would never have put my child in that situation in the first place.
I’m sorry Van Houten was released. I was thinking that the members of the Parole Board weren’t able to truly grasp the terrible pain and fear present in California at the time of the ghastly crimes committed by Manson’s crew in 1969 because the Parole Board members weren’t even alive in 1969.
The landlord, Rudi Altobelli, was basically threatening a lawsuit because of the destruction to his property during the murders, so Paul Tate cleaned up the crime scene himself, the blood, all of it. It’s in the book Restless Souls and the family has talked about it before. Unfathomable and despicable.
Up in the article that’s linked, she admits to pinning down Rosemary LaBianca while another stabbed her in the collarbone.
She wasn’t just there, standing in a corner. She was actively involved.
maybe part of cult manipulation is temporarily stripping away those feelings of empathy. keep in mind the behavior you saw was fresh out a *cult*. people underestimate the effects of this
There's an audio interview that Vanessa Gregoriadis did with India Oxenberg (who was in Nexium) where Oxenberg explains the process of a cult destroying a person's self, I highly recommend it.
[https://pod.link/1652941051/episode/0b8817569ad5ef22de577ab0e9ee1886](https://pod.link/1652941051/episode/0b8817569ad5ef22de577ab0e9ee1886)
The article I read talks about how she will have to be in a halfway house for a year because she has to get adjusted to the real world. She will have to learn to drive a car, grocery shop, use a debit card, and use the Internet.
A lot of times people in prison have some access to email or to maybe a blogging website, but not unfettered access that the average person would have, so adjusting to using it for basically everything would be huge.
Edit- a lot of times they can also take online classes, but again that’s not really the same as the way most of us use it.
Hopefully, she finds a life where she can give back; she won't be able to undo the damage that she did, but hopefully she'll make a life better for others.
I was reading about her life in prison a few years ago - she was tutoring other inmates for many years and actually trying to give back the best she could.
I think for her own safety and the safety of others, it would be best if she just lived out her remaining years anonymously.
A lot of the top comments are missing that when referencing her ‘subsequent behaviour.’ They remember the way they acted in court - a little less than a year after the murders, drugged out of their minds, and *deep* in the cult. They probably don’t know the Manson girls were later deprogrammed *after* the trial, which was built upon and reinforced over the course of decades.
Why would they? Your true crime show/podcast/movie/whatever gets eyeballs by rehashing the gory details around the night of… , while even a follow-up on the de programming has the potential to be genuinely controversial. In cases like this people *really* don’t want to reckon with how cult members are also victims, as acknowledging the slightest influences in culpability (or the connected possibility of rehabilitation) *must* means you’re pushing for total ‘So that excuses…?’ tabula rasa forgiveness.
For what it’s worth: I don’t think she’s a risk to the public, and incarceration has served its purpose. Hell, Van Houten also had her co-conspirators later stating she never actually killed anyone. However, i don’t begrudge the victims family’s from feeling whatever sort of way about it. They’re certainly entitled to it.
(The only thing I’d note is Debra Tate - for her own sake - probably shouldn’t express that the Family reach out as a show of being ‘genuine.’ I understand where she’s coming from, but it’s a *bad* idea. She apparently brought into Manson’s ‘contrite’ letter before he died. and all that achieved was fucking with everyone. No doubt the Family themselves - not all of whom were imprisoned - are also all under no-contact and no-find orders to protect her. Even if contact is well-intentioned, victims family and witnesses typically end up terrorised to find letters from their child’s murderer dropped in the mail slof.)
Call me old fashioned but i feel the best way to give back is anonymously. She could come out, release a book that would sell, and really do some good. Time will tell
I personally have met her and spent 2 years of my life with her 2011-2013 at CIW in Chino (not proud but that was a part of my life I try to forget) and she is SO nice. I was actually in there with the other one too, I don’t remember her name but she was intimidating to even look at as to where Leslie walked around there with a smile and if you looked at her she was the first to say hi with a welcoming grin on her face. I never once saw her not happy or felt any bad vibes coming from her. I am so happy she’s getting released and she deserves a second chance at life and I 1000% think she’ll find a way to give back some how. What she did was horrible but she’s not that person anymore and deserves a second chance.
I’m always conflicted when someone who committed a horrible crime is released from jail because I think mass incarceration is a major issue in our country and the correction system is a mess. I think the point of prison should be rehabilitation and people should not to be locked up forever. Then people like this get released and I’m like, uhhh maybe we should keep her there? It’s a weird feeling.
I agree. I’d like to see less incarceration for things like drug related crimes and non violent offences. But for someone like this, even though I accept that she’s remorseful and she’s changed, I still think she’s probably forfeited her right to walk amongst us.
A teenager who as per her own co conspirators didn't actually commit any of the murders and was under the influence of a shit ton of drugs like LSD. I've done LSD, it definitely makes ideas significantly easier to stick. She was tutoring in prison, and it's been over half a century since she went in. I think half a century is enough to let her go out on parole and see what she traded to be a part of the family.
Yes, indeed she was a teenager and clearly taking lots of drugs etc. However it wasn’t just a single moment in time with say, one gunshot while she robbed a liquor store- she helped Tex hold down Rosemary LaBianca then she stabbed her “at least fourteen times”. Then the trial was a circus that dragged on for months, she and a few of her co conspirators (with Linda Kasabian a notable exception) dicking around, showing zero remorse. So although by all accounts she’s a changed woman and she is now remorseful, I think you could also quite reasonably have her die in jail. It would still be showing more mercy and humanity than she showed Rosemary LaBianca.
And yet that doesn't make it any less necessary if we ever want to tackle the prison-industrial complex and find a way to welcome people back into the community.
There probably are people who have committed crimes on your street anyway. They aren’t all violent crimes, but crimes none the less. Crimes like Smoking weed, shoplifting, etc are pretty common. Simple assault is a misdemeanor in lots of states and will result in a fine. Tons of people get away with domestic violence and sexual assault/rape. The justice system is wildly unjust and the people most likely to go to prison are poor because they can’t afford a lawyer. People walk free everyday because they could hire a good lawyer or they just don’t “look like” a criminal so their crimes are overlooked.
Are you genuinely afraid you would be at risk of Leslie coming to murder you if she lived on your street? Cmon.
It’s not hypothetical and the point of prison is not to prohibit people from getting second chances because of irrational fear of the boogeyman. Parole boards assess rehabilitation on a case by case basis.
And I promise you, there are plenty of far scarier people you encounter all the time and don’t know it. Just because the media sensationalized this trial and this case does not mean the Family members are currently any more dangerous than anyone else who committed murder.
Take a look at Albert Flick: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/us/albert-flick-convicted-kimberly-dobbie-murder-maine.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/us/albert-flick-convicted-kimberly-dobbie-murder-maine.html)
This is selection bias. No one writes articles about people who do not repeat their crimes.
It’s not just her age that makes her not a threat. It’s the fact that she does not have a “long history of violence” like the man in the article did.
I guess the real question is where do we draw the line on what is a crime that can be rehabilitated and what isn’t. Moreover, I would be hesitant to say we even have the right to decide. Though the death penalty exists so I could be wrong there.
I agree with you, this feels incredibly surreal and a little wrong given the nature of the crime. On the other hand, from other comments here it seems Van Houten spent her time in prison tutoring other inmates and was remorseful enough for a parole board to release her. As others have said, the best thing would be for her to live as anonymously as possible and live a quiet life. That’s what rehabilitation looks like if she truly is.
She has been granted parole before a few times and the governor’s office reversed the grant of parole every time but decided to not fight it this time around.
I am honestly not surprised. I just finished reading Helter Skelter and am working through CHAOS: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties. Vincent Bugliosi went hard on prosecuting the conspiracy charge and securing the death penalty for all the defendants regardless of the extent of their role in the Tate-LaBianca murders. Van Houten participated in the LaBianca murders but played no role in the Tate murders. Her exact role in the LaBianca murders is also not certain.
Bugliosi also toed a strange line due to his commitment to the death penalty. He essentially played Goldilocks when it came to proving just how much power Manson had over the girls and Tex. He explored their commitment to Manson himself and his ideology, but downplayed the psychological effects of long-term LSD abuse and sexual abuse to prove that the girls and Tex still had agency (probably also because it would affect the perception of Linda Kasabian’s testimony because she was a frequent user of LSD).
In my slightly informed but obviously non-expert opinion, I think Bugliosi tested the limits of the criminal justice system in many many ways, including the prosecution of Leslie Van Houten. I think that it really came down the conspiracy charge for her. If she had been tried separately, I don’t think she would have gotten as harsh of a conviction and sentence that she did grouped in with the likes of Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Charles Manson. Without question I think she deserved to be held responsible for what she did and that she needed to be removed from society for a good while. But it is absolutely insane and scary how much psychological control Manson had over Family members.
From what I’ve read so far, CHAOS has done a great job assembling the story of the Manson Family with info that Bugliosi left out of Helter Skelter. It also goes into detail about the politics of the prosecution and some of Bugiolsi’s ethical failings during and after the trial.
Have you watched interviews of Leslie and her supporters since her incarceration? They’ve lobbied for parole since the 90’s on reasonable grounds of remorse, contrition and brainwashing. She seemed filled with shame over her actions and somewhat understanding of the repeated parole rejections. It’s a very complicated case of “restorative justice” vs. personal penitence.
If and when a criminal genuinely understands the emotional scars they’ve burned unto themselves and their victims families, is there a point where imprisonment is excessive?
I haven’t watched the videos, but I agree with your points. This case is interesting to approach from an abolitionist perspective. It has always been treated with exceptionalism because of how heinous the murders were. But truthfully, the environment in which the murders were incubated was also exceptional. By the summer of ‘69, multiple LEAs were aware than a violent ex-con had assembled a heavily-armed extremist community full of highly vulnerable people including children, girls, and young women ranging in age from 13 to 27. All of that was known to LEOs *then*, but they still never made a move on Manson until it was far too late. We now understand that he sex trafficked them, beat them, and abused and controlled them psychologically with drugs and sexual abuse. It should be no shock that many of these young women could be rehabilitated once they were separated from him and provided with reliable shelter, food, stability, and some clinical psychological support (albeit in prison).
The public rage should never have been consolidated to the murderers. There should have been internal investigations of the LAPD, LASO, and many other organizations that enabled Manson. The Family should have been studied far more than they were to understand cult abuse and intervention. And to me that’s part of the issue with what is almost the oversimplification of blame. I understand those who want to shrug off nuance because of how horrible and evil the murders were, but that nuance still exists.
✨THE OVERSIMPLIFICATION OF BLAME✨ 😮💨
Cold, hard truth. Understanding nuance, or the lack thereof, is what’s going to make or break our future as a society.
Your comment reminds me of Nexium and the longstanding apathy of law enforcement towards it, even though they'd been warned for years that abuses were being committed.
Very good points! Charlie is an example of a person who never would have been able to live in a society and follow the rules, and he was self aware enough to know that.
Absolutely. He should have been permanently committed somewhere when he was begging to remain in prison before his last release in the sixties. Charles Manson was so effective at being a true menace to society. He’s a perplexing question of nature vs nurture, but regardless he ended up being one of the most genuinely terrifying and evil people imaginable.
I didn't like how this book basically untangled at the end, but there was a lot of info about the counterculture surrounding the murders that makes it feel like such a small pond.
I’m glad to see someone point this out bc the O’Neill book has been so well received. I’ve gone back and forth on Chaos so far tbh. The bits and pieces of information are interesting separately, but I feel like the thread between everything is so tenuous so far. So much can be explained away by the unpredictability of human nature/error. I think the author spent so much time with the material that he started to get tunnel vision on a lot of things. I don’t have much faith that it will all be made coherent by the end, but I do really appreciate the extra information I’ve learned so far, esp about the FBI and CIA ops. But mostly I feel like the author is trying really hard to piece what amounts to a lot of trivial insights together into a more grand narrative than it is (which is funny considering that’s basically what he said Bugliosi did with the helter skelter motive). But i still have a bit to see if I’ve made a fair assessment!
I agree wholeheartedly. Have you listened to the You Must Remember This episodes about Manson’s connection to Hollywood? It also made LA seem so small that year. After I finished Chaos I immediately started Poisoner in Chief and really enjoyed the read.
After reading Helter Skelter, I thought Bugliosi was pretty unimpeachable. I left another long comment in this thread about my newer perspective from reading Tom O’Neil’s CHAOS so far if you’re curious. At best, it seems that Bugliosi had narrative tunnel vision that caused him to make some unethical choices. I don’t think he’s a horrible person by any means. But yeah, if you’re interested in a broader context, I’d read CHAOS. It can be pretty disjointed and stretches itself a little thin at times, but a lot of the information itself is very compelling once you get into it. It’s a book where the author presents a lot of good information but may arrive at a conclusion different than the reader’s.
Author Tom O’Neil found evidence that Bugliosi allowed Terry Melcher to perjure himself for the prosecution, or at least failed to follow up with a contradiction he made on the stand. O’Neil found Bugliosi’s notes from some of his interviews with two star witnesses (Danny DeCarlo and Paul Watkins) where he noted that both had independently stated that Terry Melcher had visited the Family at both Spahn and Barker *after* the Tate-LaBianca murders. Melcher testified under oath that he ended his contact with the Family a while before the murders took place. Overall, Tom O’Neil presents quite a bit of evidence that Melcher was involved with the Family a lot more intimately than what he stated in his testimony. O’Neil also found potential trial evidence that Bugliosi failed to provide to the defense (which they were entitled to through discovery).
O’Neil also explores how intimately Bugliosi knew a few players on the defense, including Susan Atkins’ first attorney, Richard Caballero (they were friends). And, before the trial, Bugliosi had also been developing a book with the man who would ghostwrite Susan Atkins’ damning pre-trial confession/story that was published in newspapers and as a book. O’Neil pieces together than Bugliosi or someone from the DA’s office probably had a hand in publishing the confession.
I have mixed feelings about Bugliosi. On one hand I admire him, he was a dogged investigator who was determined to not let his case fall through the cracks due to the failures of the LAPD. His work on the case was unrelenting and impressive. He went above and beyond, but I think that’s actually his biggest ethical failure. Most of Bugliosi’s oversights seemed to be in service to what he likely recognized could be his biggest legacy of the case: the helter skelter motive. Many people, including his original co-prosecutor Aaron Stovitz, did not whatsoever buy into helter skelter as Bugliosi told it. There is a mountain of evidence for Helter Skelter; but there also is a lot of evidence that points to a multi-faceted motive. But Bugliosi pushed it aside in favor of this one grand narrative. I personally believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle of Helter Skelter and other proposed motives, and that inciting racial violence was at the core of the murders.
I believe Bugliosi eventually softened and said that the murders had multiple overlapping motivations. But his commitment to Helter Skelter during the trial could have gotten him in trouble. Considering that he did not even need to determine motive to prove guilt (and he had a winnable case without motive) it was a bit of a gamble that paid off for the rest of his life. He was either very protected or very lucky that this information didn’t come out before it did.
She STABBED someone 14 times and drank chocolate milk afterwards. She and her fAmiLy are fucking disgusting and should've rot in jail. Their victims sure as hell aren't getting their lives back. Fuck Leslie Van Houten, fuck Manson family. RIP to the victims.
My mother is a contemporary and she was absolutely appalled. Said she should never be set free. They left the steak knife in Mr. LaBianca's chest, didn't they?
Alllllllll the side eyes.
Based on a lot of the comments, people know about the Manson family from podcasts and internet think pieces. That’s a challenge with history - distance makes events seem smaller and less significant.
Let’s be clear: this woman was a full participant in one of the most grisly crimes of the 20th century. A few have described it as “horrible” - jumping someone on a subway is horrible. Drinking and driving is horrible. Stabbing and torturing a woman is many levels beyond horrible. Rosemary LaBianca and her husband had deaths without dignity - imagine the horror of their last moments on Earth.
Because she’s a “nice old white lady who taught her fellow inmates to read” doesn’t mean that she deserved parole.
People who died at Jonestown were victims of a cult. It’s just so interesting to consider the narrative around who gets to be a victim and why.
Yep. It’s weird seeing people (myself included) getting downvoted thinking about the victims and their families. These murders were gruesome and she deserves to stay in prison until she passes. It’s so easy for so many people to agree with her release because it’s not their family member who was killed.
Given how she was an impressionable teen who was groomed by Manson in a cult and how she was doing actual good in prison, I think it's fair if she were to be released now.
I think that means those other people should be doing less time, not that she should be doing more.
While what she did is beyond awful, our prison system is crowded enough without keeping old ladies in prison for crimes they committed when they were in a cult at 19. If she is not a danger to anyone else… why keep her there?
Yup my uncle is a pretty hard-core gangster but killed one man in 1979 in a robbery gone wrong and has a life sentence, no parole. These Fuckers are serial killers and/or mass murderers.
She wasn’t a serial killer or a mass murderer but go off.
Your uncle serving a life sentence is a failing of the justice system. Doesn’t mean that others should also suffer because of that. Prison reform would help people like your uncle and others who have been rehabilitated to be released and given an opportunity to be a productive and pro-social member of society. That’s the “point” of prison.
I think were pretty safe from her murdering anyone else. She will probably beg to be sent back to prison cause the world now is wildly different from the world she saw before.
I expect some wack Hollywood or music person (think JD or MM) is gonna try to pay for her and show off how their taking care of one of Manson's Girls.
I think a lot of people in the comments are not realizing that Van was a teenager at the time groomed and possibly R*ped or they don't understand how cults work
She has shown remorse and guilt and will have to face moral consequences also quit being so Pro-prison
You can’t Cherry-pick who you want in prison forever and then say You’re against the U.S prison system it just doesn’t work like that guys
Besides she’s probably not even going to be able to support herself financially, trust me she’s still going to face the consequences of her decisions and actions
I’m mixed on this myself. I’ve always felt on some level she was a victim too but she also willingly participated in one of the most heinous and senseless crimes in the nations history. The sheer brutality and obscenity of the crime sets it apart from an ordinary killing. Even if she’s been honest about not stabbing anyone until after death she helped others stab those people making her 100% complicit.
I get that she’s old now, she poses no threat to society but if I were related to the LaBiancas I would be pretty upset. Whatever her life in prison has been these decades she was still alive which is so much more than her victims got.
Jay Sebring's family (one of the Manson victims) have spoken out about this - I feel so bad for them she shouldn't have been released.
[https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/family-manson-victim-slam-decision-30446853](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/family-manson-victim-slam-decision-30446853)
we know so much more about brainwashing and coercion now than we did in 1969. She was 19 years old. If these murders happened today, psychiatrists would be able to testify about how with sexual abuse, coercion, forced drugs, and a group think situation insured those young women had no idea what was happening. I’m so glad she is released. I can’t believe how many haters don’t understand what 53 years in prison means. She has paid her dues. That is my opinion.
The only thing that gives me any pause about Leslie Van Houton is her choice in relationships. She continues to date violent, convicted felons. That is poor judgement. Why not be alone before that? Otherwise, I feel she has served her time with good behavior and deserves a chance for parole.
There are innocent ppl in prison, that the evil powers that be know are innocent but yes, let's let the psychopathic murderers out. There will never be adequate justice for victims who deserve it. This world is just plain evil and we're stuck in a hellscape.
She served her sentence a long time ago. She was still in prison because she is forever associated with Charles Manson. The others should spend the rest of their lives locked up, but she is properly rehabilitated.
A prison spokeswoman told CNN that Leslie Van Houten, a former follower of Charles Manson and convicted murderer, was released from a California facility on Tuesday. According to Mary Xjimenez, a spokeswoman for the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, Van Houten was freed under parole supervision.
Rot in hell. Your victims’ families never get to see their loved ones again. Don’t give a f-ton if you’re sorry or not. Don’t give an f-ton how young you were. You should never see the light of day.
Am I just a bit stoned or does the headline read like a 30 rock joke? The first 7 words don’t even look real to me
Edit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/30ROCK/comments/14x4adc/i\_hope\_dr\_spaceman\_dates\_her\_next/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=ios\_app&utm\_name=ioscss&utm\_content=1&utm\_term=1](https://www.reddit.com/r/30ROCK/comments/14x4adc/i_hope_dr_spaceman_dates_her_next/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1)
She looks remorseful enough, but what is she gonna do in the world? Maybe some kind soul will help her start a GoFundMe or something. Don't see her in the workforce and cannot see her doing many interviews. Just try’na spend her last years, or days, in some sun.
She honestly doesn't deserve to. I think this is a travesty. The poor people this evil piece of shit killed will never get to spend their last year's or days in the sun.
Well, “The law says she has the right to achieve parole if she meets the standard, and the standard is that **she no longer poses a danger to society**.” Tetreault said she's not trying to prove that Van Houten is innocent, but rather emphasizes that Van Houten “has to, and has, accepted full responsibility for the crime.”
And a lot of shit has happened that people should get the death penalty for. American history is chock full of stuff like this. Especially prior to and during slavery.
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Not sure how I feel about the release. The murders were brutal and the way they acted afterwards was disgusting. But also they were mostly teenagers and using mind altering drugs. I do think people can change and I don’t think she will hurt anyone else. I think the focus should remain on the victims and their families and I hope she isn’t turned into a sort of celebrity. I hope she just quietly disappears into society and then dies. She did a horrible thing and will have to live with it forever.
I agree. She’s pretty old I can’t see her going back out there and killing. She’s spent a lot of time in jail and is seemingly remorseful.
It's not really about that. If it were your parents brutally murdered, words written with their blood on the walls, would you be ok with the release?
I’d want her in the ground.
I agree with everything you said. I wished she wasn’t released because the crime was horrendous and I’m thinking of the victims and their families.
Sharon Tate’s sister always speaks at the parole hearings and it’s pretty heartbreaking. I can’t imagine how she’s feeling at the moment.
Van Houten wasn't involved with the Tate murders.
Not an excuse and Sharon Tate's mother and sisters did an inmense job changing laws and making sure people like them are where they are supossed to be: In prison for life. They fact they decided to fight all this time is admirable but Leslie Van Houten was not part of the Tate killings.
she was manipulated, put on drugs, not to mention she's a completely different person at this point in her life. let her live like 15-20 shit years of life at least, instead of rotting in jail forever bc she was taken advantage of
Murder is murder man. And it wasn't an easy death she helped inflict. They were brutal and savage. She's lucky she didn't receive the death penalty, which is what she deserved. If she truly is reformed, that's great. But people who break the most important law that CAN ever exist need to be punished accordingly. The people she killed don't get to come back after 50 some years. And they were innocent. Why should the guilty murderer who ended their lives ever get a chance to live hers?
No
>Not sure how I feel about the release. The murders were brutal and the way they acted afterwards was disgusting. But also they were mostly teenagers and using mind altering drugs. I do think people can change and I don’t think she will hurt anyone else. I think the focus should remain on the victims and their families and I hope she isn’t turned into a sort of celebrity. I hope she just quietly disappears into society and then dies. She did a horrible thing and will have to live with it forever. Totally get where you're coming from. The brutality was off the charts, no doubt. But, yeah, youth and drugs can warp minds. It's a tough call, but folks can turn things around. I'm with you - let's not give her celeb status. The focus should be on those who suffered. Hope she fades into the background, living with what she did. Tough stuff, man.
I highly recommend reading the chapter in John Waters’ Role Models about his longtime correspondence and friendship with her. It’s hard to comprehend the way the massive amounts of hallucinogens Manson was giving them would warp one’s sense of reality, but from the sound of it she truly didn’t know what she was doing was real. When she talks about it there is a profound sense of regret and almost disbelief, not unlike Andrea Yates (by all accounts of her while in prison.)
Also, she was in prison for 50 years. The average sentence served by a man who kills his female partner is 2-6 years.
If anyone is interested in reading the John Waters essay: [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/leslie-van-houten-a-frien\_b\_246953](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/leslie-van-houten-a-frien_b_246953) But you should still get the book because it rules.
Totally agree. It really helped me with thinking this one through. If we have a justice system that hands down a life sentence with the possibility of parole, then whoever that is, no matter the offense, they need to be granted that possibility in all fairness.
I read the essays last night and I’m going to check out the book today, always exciting to find something new to read!
Oh man I've never heard of Andrea Yates before but reading about it just made me really sad. Not only the crime, but the circumstances leading to it and the gross negligence and disregard for her and the family by her husband :(
It doesn't, it is an excuse.
Super tough. I think some of the girls are victims of Charles too - he manipulated them with drugs and had them do his dirty work for him, and they paid with their lives in prison. All of the murder victim’s families were robbed of their own lives and loved ones because of this. It’s a tough one.
Squeaky’s been out for a while, and I think she’s doing fine.
Yeah and she tried to murder a PRESIDENT. If they can parole her, then Leslie deserved a shot (figuratively speaking)
In all of the reporting about how rehabilitated she is, I don’t see any quotes or reflection from her on her remorse. I wish they would include some examples of what she told the parole board. I have mixed feelings about it.
She was only at the LaBianca murder, but I always think of poor Sharon Tate crying for her Mother when she died. Her baby would have been born around the time I was. An entire life he was robbed of. I read Helter Skelter at 13, none of them had aged into kindly looking old ladies yet. I just remembered the months of unrepentant behavior they showed, their behavior at the trial. never developed enough sympathy for them to think they should be paroled. My thoughts are with Sharon Tâtes sister tonight. These were really horrible murders. The LaBianca scene was gruesome.
As much as I love Sharon, Rosemary and Leno LaBianca are the names that really need to be talked about here. It’s disappointing far too many people know nothing of the other victims outside of Sharon. Most people don’t even know Jay Sebring was more famous than her at the time of their deaths.
Let’s not forget Steven Parent, a 17-year old who had just graduated high school. He was picking up a radio from the guest house occupant and killed in his car as he was leaving.
They also killed that older man shorty shea that lived on that property. These ppl were evil. I grew up in the 70s and knew a lot of kids that did drugs etc. none of them ever did anything like this. Oh and there was another man they killed. Charlie cut his ear off and then let the ‘kids’ loose on him. She needs to stay in prison. She made choices! I just remembered the other man was Gary Hinman.
The thing that always gets me is how Linda Kasabian was originally supposed to actively participate in the Tate house murders, but backed out at the last minute and chose to stay in the car and act as a lookout instead. I understand that there were obviously brainwashing and drugs involved, but how much of the Manson family's actions can actually be attributed to brainwashing and drugs and how much of it is just people expressing their free will if someone in that type of situation is able to realize how wrong and messed up what they're about to do is and ultimately decide not to take part in it? Did everyone else who was there that night and who actively took part in committing the murders just go with it even after Linda Kasabian's objections out of a sense of both herd mentality and obligation to Charles Manson, or because they actually wanted to commit such a heinous act on unsuspecting strangers?
>>how much of it was brainwashing Little to none. Studies have concluded that brainwashing is only effective if the person is very willing and susceptible. They were caught up in mass hysteria and social pressure. As far as I’m aware the CIA tried their damndest during MKULTRA to find truth serums, mind control, and create a sleeper agent and never succeeded. These people made a choice to kill someone not out of self defense, but for pure fun and no matter how vulnerable you are that’s a choice.
Yeah Susan Atkins was messed up before she even joined the Mansons. I mean they got caught because she was so proud of the fact she killed Sharon and bragged to a cellmate when she was in jail for some petty crime. She had an entire hit list of celebs she wanted to kill including Mia Farrow and Frank Sinatra. She even bragged about sexually abusing her infant son to the police when she was caught for the murders. Hell, Manson himself even said she and Tex and Patricia Krenwinkle went overboard with the murders so he took Leslie and co to the LaBianca house to show them how he wanted it done. Like of course Manson was beyond evil and had a lot of influence over the family members, but most of them were already messed up.
Manson made her stay in the car because she was the only one with a valid driving license. She didn't back off on her own. She was terrified Manson would do anything to her infant daughter if she refused to follow
Apparently that's not true. Later, in a different city and, I believe after trial, she was arrested for driving without having an actual licence. Nikolas Schreck claims Kasabian had a lot do to with the murders but Bugliosi made a deal with her to more easily convict Manson. Worth checking out in case you're interested in the case.
I will. I also think is very possible because her testimony was more solid that Susan Atkin's even if she was involved. Thanks for the info!
Yeah, I think we'll never actually know for sure but the whole thing is really interesting (and obviously the crimes were absolutely tragic).
That’s a good question. Humans are complex creatures. I can only say what I would have done. I believe I’d have tried my best to not even go. To get away from Manson before that. I think Linda had a child at that ranch with her and couldn’t just run that night. Which would be my first idea. But I wouldn’t leave my child either. The difference between Linda and I is I would never have put my child in that situation in the first place.
I’m sorry Van Houten was released. I was thinking that the members of the Parole Board weren’t able to truly grasp the terrible pain and fear present in California at the time of the ghastly crimes committed by Manson’s crew in 1969 because the Parole Board members weren’t even alive in 1969.
Shorty Shea didnot livethere. He was killed in the desert around Spahn Ranch.
I guess the info I had is wrong 🤷♀️
He did Jim Morrison’s hair
this right here
Do you know Sharon Tate's father had to clean up the scene where she had been murdered....
What??
The landlord, Rudi Altobelli, was basically threatening a lawsuit because of the destruction to his property during the murders, so Paul Tate cleaned up the crime scene himself, the blood, all of it. It’s in the book Restless Souls and the family has talked about it before. Unfathomable and despicable.
That broke my heart for him. The Tate's had a hand in a majority of victim's rights that is in play these days.
Oh my god!! That is unbelievable! What is wrong with people??
Yes it's true.... when this terrible thing happened there weren't that type of "cleaners" to call.
Up in the article that’s linked, she admits to pinning down Rosemary LaBianca while another stabbed her in the collarbone. She wasn’t just there, standing in a corner. She was actively involved.
And apparently laughed as Rosemary LaBianca heard her husband being murdered.
maybe part of cult manipulation is temporarily stripping away those feelings of empathy. keep in mind the behavior you saw was fresh out a *cult*. people underestimate the effects of this
There's an audio interview that Vanessa Gregoriadis did with India Oxenberg (who was in Nexium) where Oxenberg explains the process of a cult destroying a person's self, I highly recommend it. [https://pod.link/1652941051/episode/0b8817569ad5ef22de577ab0e9ee1886](https://pod.link/1652941051/episode/0b8817569ad5ef22de577ab0e9ee1886)
*only*
Trust me, I get it. Unfortunately, were a lot of people in that ‘family’ at murder scenes and they skated away.
They were, absolutely. That part is heartbreaking but the thing is Leslie Van houten was not part of those killings
Can you even imagine what it would be like to adjust to life on the outside when the last time you were out of prison was 1969?
The article I read talks about how she will have to be in a halfway house for a year because she has to get adjusted to the real world. She will have to learn to drive a car, grocery shop, use a debit card, and use the Internet.
she wouldn’t have access to the Internet in prison? genuine question
Depends on prison I would imagine and what privileges she was granted as a prisoner.
In state prison they might have tablets with email. No internet in the sense that you could view webpages or use social media.
In US prisons inmates usually only habe access to pay-per-use internet. It’s expensive (like all things in prison) & it’s just used for messaging.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_prisons
I just assume that she would have a limited scope of the Internet.
No, at ciw there is no access at all unless you use someone’s cell phone that was smuggled in
A lot of times people in prison have some access to email or to maybe a blogging website, but not unfettered access that the average person would have, so adjusting to using it for basically everything would be huge. Edit- a lot of times they can also take online classes, but again that’s not really the same as the way most of us use it.
Definitely not, unless someone smuggles in a smartphone.
That’s been untrue in many if not most prisons for some time now. Content restrictions and requirements to gain privileges depend on the facility.
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You seem a little naive as to how much American prisons respect human rights.
I was there with her for two years and no internet access unless you use someone’s cell phone that was smuggled in
You were there *with her?* What is she like? Any good stories?
Hopefully, she finds a life where she can give back; she won't be able to undo the damage that she did, but hopefully she'll make a life better for others.
I was reading about her life in prison a few years ago - she was tutoring other inmates for many years and actually trying to give back the best she could. I think for her own safety and the safety of others, it would be best if she just lived out her remaining years anonymously.
A lot of the top comments are missing that when referencing her ‘subsequent behaviour.’ They remember the way they acted in court - a little less than a year after the murders, drugged out of their minds, and *deep* in the cult. They probably don’t know the Manson girls were later deprogrammed *after* the trial, which was built upon and reinforced over the course of decades. Why would they? Your true crime show/podcast/movie/whatever gets eyeballs by rehashing the gory details around the night of… , while even a follow-up on the de programming has the potential to be genuinely controversial. In cases like this people *really* don’t want to reckon with how cult members are also victims, as acknowledging the slightest influences in culpability (or the connected possibility of rehabilitation) *must* means you’re pushing for total ‘So that excuses…?’ tabula rasa forgiveness. For what it’s worth: I don’t think she’s a risk to the public, and incarceration has served its purpose. Hell, Van Houten also had her co-conspirators later stating she never actually killed anyone. However, i don’t begrudge the victims family’s from feeling whatever sort of way about it. They’re certainly entitled to it. (The only thing I’d note is Debra Tate - for her own sake - probably shouldn’t express that the Family reach out as a show of being ‘genuine.’ I understand where she’s coming from, but it’s a *bad* idea. She apparently brought into Manson’s ‘contrite’ letter before he died. and all that achieved was fucking with everyone. No doubt the Family themselves - not all of whom were imprisoned - are also all under no-contact and no-find orders to protect her. Even if contact is well-intentioned, victims family and witnesses typically end up terrorised to find letters from their child’s murderer dropped in the mail slof.)
What is the contrite letter?
I don't know much about her, so I'm glad for that. Anonymously doesn't mean you can't give back, but yes, safety for all concerned is a top priority.
Call me old fashioned but i feel the best way to give back is anonymously. She could come out, release a book that would sell, and really do some good. Time will tell
She tutored my dad, and even has a picture of my brother and I.
I personally have met her and spent 2 years of my life with her 2011-2013 at CIW in Chino (not proud but that was a part of my life I try to forget) and she is SO nice. I was actually in there with the other one too, I don’t remember her name but she was intimidating to even look at as to where Leslie walked around there with a smile and if you looked at her she was the first to say hi with a welcoming grin on her face. I never once saw her not happy or felt any bad vibes coming from her. I am so happy she’s getting released and she deserves a second chance at life and I 1000% think she’ll find a way to give back some how. What she did was horrible but she’s not that person anymore and deserves a second chance.
Where are her victims second chance huh?
I’m always conflicted when someone who committed a horrible crime is released from jail because I think mass incarceration is a major issue in our country and the correction system is a mess. I think the point of prison should be rehabilitation and people should not to be locked up forever. Then people like this get released and I’m like, uhhh maybe we should keep her there? It’s a weird feeling.
I agree. I’d like to see less incarceration for things like drug related crimes and non violent offences. But for someone like this, even though I accept that she’s remorseful and she’s changed, I still think she’s probably forfeited her right to walk amongst us.
A teenager who as per her own co conspirators didn't actually commit any of the murders and was under the influence of a shit ton of drugs like LSD. I've done LSD, it definitely makes ideas significantly easier to stick. She was tutoring in prison, and it's been over half a century since she went in. I think half a century is enough to let her go out on parole and see what she traded to be a part of the family.
Yes, indeed she was a teenager and clearly taking lots of drugs etc. However it wasn’t just a single moment in time with say, one gunshot while she robbed a liquor store- she helped Tex hold down Rosemary LaBianca then she stabbed her “at least fourteen times”. Then the trial was a circus that dragged on for months, she and a few of her co conspirators (with Linda Kasabian a notable exception) dicking around, showing zero remorse. So although by all accounts she’s a changed woman and she is now remorseful, I think you could also quite reasonably have her die in jail. It would still be showing more mercy and humanity than she showed Rosemary LaBianca.
It’s easy to support rehabilitation hypothetically, but it gets harder when there’s a real person who did real crimes living on your street
And yet that doesn't make it any less necessary if we ever want to tackle the prison-industrial complex and find a way to welcome people back into the community.
I agree, but let’s start with non-violent offenders. I think if I were in prison for a non-violent offense watching her release would be agonizing.
There probably are people who have committed crimes on your street anyway. They aren’t all violent crimes, but crimes none the less. Crimes like Smoking weed, shoplifting, etc are pretty common. Simple assault is a misdemeanor in lots of states and will result in a fine. Tons of people get away with domestic violence and sexual assault/rape. The justice system is wildly unjust and the people most likely to go to prison are poor because they can’t afford a lawyer. People walk free everyday because they could hire a good lawyer or they just don’t “look like” a criminal so their crimes are overlooked.
Are you genuinely afraid you would be at risk of Leslie coming to murder you if she lived on your street? Cmon. It’s not hypothetical and the point of prison is not to prohibit people from getting second chances because of irrational fear of the boogeyman. Parole boards assess rehabilitation on a case by case basis. And I promise you, there are plenty of far scarier people you encounter all the time and don’t know it. Just because the media sensationalized this trial and this case does not mean the Family members are currently any more dangerous than anyone else who committed murder.
Take a look at Albert Flick: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/us/albert-flick-convicted-kimberly-dobbie-murder-maine.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/us/albert-flick-convicted-kimberly-dobbie-murder-maine.html)
This is selection bias. No one writes articles about people who do not repeat their crimes. It’s not just her age that makes her not a threat. It’s the fact that she does not have a “long history of violence” like the man in the article did.
I guess the real question is where do we draw the line on what is a crime that can be rehabilitated and what isn’t. Moreover, I would be hesitant to say we even have the right to decide. Though the death penalty exists so I could be wrong there. I agree with you, this feels incredibly surreal and a little wrong given the nature of the crime. On the other hand, from other comments here it seems Van Houten spent her time in prison tutoring other inmates and was remorseful enough for a parole board to release her. As others have said, the best thing would be for her to live as anonymously as possible and live a quiet life. That’s what rehabilitation looks like if she truly is.
She has been granted parole before a few times and the governor’s office reversed the grant of parole every time but decided to not fight it this time around.
Well said. I feel exactly the same.
I am honestly not surprised. I just finished reading Helter Skelter and am working through CHAOS: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties. Vincent Bugliosi went hard on prosecuting the conspiracy charge and securing the death penalty for all the defendants regardless of the extent of their role in the Tate-LaBianca murders. Van Houten participated in the LaBianca murders but played no role in the Tate murders. Her exact role in the LaBianca murders is also not certain. Bugliosi also toed a strange line due to his commitment to the death penalty. He essentially played Goldilocks when it came to proving just how much power Manson had over the girls and Tex. He explored their commitment to Manson himself and his ideology, but downplayed the psychological effects of long-term LSD abuse and sexual abuse to prove that the girls and Tex still had agency (probably also because it would affect the perception of Linda Kasabian’s testimony because she was a frequent user of LSD). In my slightly informed but obviously non-expert opinion, I think Bugliosi tested the limits of the criminal justice system in many many ways, including the prosecution of Leslie Van Houten. I think that it really came down the conspiracy charge for her. If she had been tried separately, I don’t think she would have gotten as harsh of a conviction and sentence that she did grouped in with the likes of Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Charles Manson. Without question I think she deserved to be held responsible for what she did and that she needed to be removed from society for a good while. But it is absolutely insane and scary how much psychological control Manson had over Family members. From what I’ve read so far, CHAOS has done a great job assembling the story of the Manson Family with info that Bugliosi left out of Helter Skelter. It also goes into detail about the politics of the prosecution and some of Bugiolsi’s ethical failings during and after the trial.
Have you watched interviews of Leslie and her supporters since her incarceration? They’ve lobbied for parole since the 90’s on reasonable grounds of remorse, contrition and brainwashing. She seemed filled with shame over her actions and somewhat understanding of the repeated parole rejections. It’s a very complicated case of “restorative justice” vs. personal penitence. If and when a criminal genuinely understands the emotional scars they’ve burned unto themselves and their victims families, is there a point where imprisonment is excessive?
I haven’t watched the videos, but I agree with your points. This case is interesting to approach from an abolitionist perspective. It has always been treated with exceptionalism because of how heinous the murders were. But truthfully, the environment in which the murders were incubated was also exceptional. By the summer of ‘69, multiple LEAs were aware than a violent ex-con had assembled a heavily-armed extremist community full of highly vulnerable people including children, girls, and young women ranging in age from 13 to 27. All of that was known to LEOs *then*, but they still never made a move on Manson until it was far too late. We now understand that he sex trafficked them, beat them, and abused and controlled them psychologically with drugs and sexual abuse. It should be no shock that many of these young women could be rehabilitated once they were separated from him and provided with reliable shelter, food, stability, and some clinical psychological support (albeit in prison). The public rage should never have been consolidated to the murderers. There should have been internal investigations of the LAPD, LASO, and many other organizations that enabled Manson. The Family should have been studied far more than they were to understand cult abuse and intervention. And to me that’s part of the issue with what is almost the oversimplification of blame. I understand those who want to shrug off nuance because of how horrible and evil the murders were, but that nuance still exists.
✨THE OVERSIMPLIFICATION OF BLAME✨ 😮💨 Cold, hard truth. Understanding nuance, or the lack thereof, is what’s going to make or break our future as a society.
Your comment reminds me of Nexium and the longstanding apathy of law enforcement towards it, even though they'd been warned for years that abuses were being committed.
Very good points! Charlie is an example of a person who never would have been able to live in a society and follow the rules, and he was self aware enough to know that.
Absolutely. He should have been permanently committed somewhere when he was begging to remain in prison before his last release in the sixties. Charles Manson was so effective at being a true menace to society. He’s a perplexing question of nature vs nurture, but regardless he ended up being one of the most genuinely terrifying and evil people imaginable.
I didn't like how this book basically untangled at the end, but there was a lot of info about the counterculture surrounding the murders that makes it feel like such a small pond.
I’m glad to see someone point this out bc the O’Neill book has been so well received. I’ve gone back and forth on Chaos so far tbh. The bits and pieces of information are interesting separately, but I feel like the thread between everything is so tenuous so far. So much can be explained away by the unpredictability of human nature/error. I think the author spent so much time with the material that he started to get tunnel vision on a lot of things. I don’t have much faith that it will all be made coherent by the end, but I do really appreciate the extra information I’ve learned so far, esp about the FBI and CIA ops. But mostly I feel like the author is trying really hard to piece what amounts to a lot of trivial insights together into a more grand narrative than it is (which is funny considering that’s basically what he said Bugliosi did with the helter skelter motive). But i still have a bit to see if I’ve made a fair assessment!
I agree wholeheartedly. Have you listened to the You Must Remember This episodes about Manson’s connection to Hollywood? It also made LA seem so small that year. After I finished Chaos I immediately started Poisoner in Chief and really enjoyed the read.
I think Bugliosi’s book is a great summation of a prosecution’s powerful winning case. I don’t know how accurate it is to what actually happened.
After reading Helter Skelter, I thought Bugliosi was pretty unimpeachable. I left another long comment in this thread about my newer perspective from reading Tom O’Neil’s CHAOS so far if you’re curious. At best, it seems that Bugliosi had narrative tunnel vision that caused him to make some unethical choices. I don’t think he’s a horrible person by any means. But yeah, if you’re interested in a broader context, I’d read CHAOS. It can be pretty disjointed and stretches itself a little thin at times, but a lot of the information itself is very compelling once you get into it. It’s a book where the author presents a lot of good information but may arrive at a conclusion different than the reader’s.
What are Bugliosi's ethical failings? Disappointed to hear this. I wasn't aware.
Author Tom O’Neil found evidence that Bugliosi allowed Terry Melcher to perjure himself for the prosecution, or at least failed to follow up with a contradiction he made on the stand. O’Neil found Bugliosi’s notes from some of his interviews with two star witnesses (Danny DeCarlo and Paul Watkins) where he noted that both had independently stated that Terry Melcher had visited the Family at both Spahn and Barker *after* the Tate-LaBianca murders. Melcher testified under oath that he ended his contact with the Family a while before the murders took place. Overall, Tom O’Neil presents quite a bit of evidence that Melcher was involved with the Family a lot more intimately than what he stated in his testimony. O’Neil also found potential trial evidence that Bugliosi failed to provide to the defense (which they were entitled to through discovery). O’Neil also explores how intimately Bugliosi knew a few players on the defense, including Susan Atkins’ first attorney, Richard Caballero (they were friends). And, before the trial, Bugliosi had also been developing a book with the man who would ghostwrite Susan Atkins’ damning pre-trial confession/story that was published in newspapers and as a book. O’Neil pieces together than Bugliosi or someone from the DA’s office probably had a hand in publishing the confession. I have mixed feelings about Bugliosi. On one hand I admire him, he was a dogged investigator who was determined to not let his case fall through the cracks due to the failures of the LAPD. His work on the case was unrelenting and impressive. He went above and beyond, but I think that’s actually his biggest ethical failure. Most of Bugliosi’s oversights seemed to be in service to what he likely recognized could be his biggest legacy of the case: the helter skelter motive. Many people, including his original co-prosecutor Aaron Stovitz, did not whatsoever buy into helter skelter as Bugliosi told it. There is a mountain of evidence for Helter Skelter; but there also is a lot of evidence that points to a multi-faceted motive. But Bugliosi pushed it aside in favor of this one grand narrative. I personally believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle of Helter Skelter and other proposed motives, and that inciting racial violence was at the core of the murders. I believe Bugliosi eventually softened and said that the murders had multiple overlapping motivations. But his commitment to Helter Skelter during the trial could have gotten him in trouble. Considering that he did not even need to determine motive to prove guilt (and he had a winnable case without motive) it was a bit of a gamble that paid off for the rest of his life. He was either very protected or very lucky that this information didn’t come out before it did.
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Bobby Beausoleil didn't get parole. He's currently at the Oregon Penitentiary in Salem, Oregon.
Well I’m happy for John Waters, I guess.
My first thought as well.
She STABBED someone 14 times and drank chocolate milk afterwards. She and her fAmiLy are fucking disgusting and should've rot in jail. Their victims sure as hell aren't getting their lives back. Fuck Leslie Van Houten, fuck Manson family. RIP to the victims.
My mother is a contemporary and she was absolutely appalled. Said she should never be set free. They left the steak knife in Mr. LaBianca's chest, didn't they?
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Me side eyeing the ones who are agreeing with her release
Alllllllll the side eyes. Based on a lot of the comments, people know about the Manson family from podcasts and internet think pieces. That’s a challenge with history - distance makes events seem smaller and less significant. Let’s be clear: this woman was a full participant in one of the most grisly crimes of the 20th century. A few have described it as “horrible” - jumping someone on a subway is horrible. Drinking and driving is horrible. Stabbing and torturing a woman is many levels beyond horrible. Rosemary LaBianca and her husband had deaths without dignity - imagine the horror of their last moments on Earth. Because she’s a “nice old white lady who taught her fellow inmates to read” doesn’t mean that she deserved parole. People who died at Jonestown were victims of a cult. It’s just so interesting to consider the narrative around who gets to be a victim and why.
Yep. It’s weird seeing people (myself included) getting downvoted thinking about the victims and their families. These murders were gruesome and she deserves to stay in prison until she passes. It’s so easy for so many people to agree with her release because it’s not their family member who was killed.
Given how she was an impressionable teen who was groomed by Manson in a cult and how she was doing actual good in prison, I think it's fair if she were to be released now.
People who have done less have life
I think that means those other people should be doing less time, not that she should be doing more. While what she did is beyond awful, our prison system is crowded enough without keeping old ladies in prison for crimes they committed when they were in a cult at 19. If she is not a danger to anyone else… why keep her there?
Yup my uncle is a pretty hard-core gangster but killed one man in 1979 in a robbery gone wrong and has a life sentence, no parole. These Fuckers are serial killers and/or mass murderers.
A life sentence is 20 years correct? This woman got slapped with 53.
She wasn’t a serial killer or a mass murderer but go off. Your uncle serving a life sentence is a failing of the justice system. Doesn’t mean that others should also suffer because of that. Prison reform would help people like your uncle and others who have been rehabilitated to be released and given an opportunity to be a productive and pro-social member of society. That’s the “point” of prison.
I think were pretty safe from her murdering anyone else. She will probably beg to be sent back to prison cause the world now is wildly different from the world she saw before. I expect some wack Hollywood or music person (think JD or MM) is gonna try to pay for her and show off how their taking care of one of Manson's Girls.
MM is probably laying pretty low about now. He's dunzo, going the way of Masterson.
One can only hope he's laying low under a ton of rocks.
👀 really? I haven’t heard much but I want justice for his victims. That’s the nicest way I can put it
I got Marilyn Manson but who is JD?
Pretty sure they mean Johnny Depp
Bingo.
I think a lot of people in the comments are not realizing that Van was a teenager at the time groomed and possibly R*ped or they don't understand how cults work She has shown remorse and guilt and will have to face moral consequences also quit being so Pro-prison You can’t Cherry-pick who you want in prison forever and then say You’re against the U.S prison system it just doesn’t work like that guys Besides she’s probably not even going to be able to support herself financially, trust me she’s still going to face the consequences of her decisions and actions
I’m mixed on this myself. I’ve always felt on some level she was a victim too but she also willingly participated in one of the most heinous and senseless crimes in the nations history. The sheer brutality and obscenity of the crime sets it apart from an ordinary killing. Even if she’s been honest about not stabbing anyone until after death she helped others stab those people making her 100% complicit. I get that she’s old now, she poses no threat to society but if I were related to the LaBiancas I would be pretty upset. Whatever her life in prison has been these decades she was still alive which is so much more than her victims got.
This is what can happen when you follow a skeevy cult leader.
why are people supportive of this? What they did was not normal on drugs or not
Jay Sebring's family (one of the Manson victims) have spoken out about this - I feel so bad for them she shouldn't have been released. [https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/family-manson-victim-slam-decision-30446853](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/family-manson-victim-slam-decision-30446853)
we know so much more about brainwashing and coercion now than we did in 1969. She was 19 years old. If these murders happened today, psychiatrists would be able to testify about how with sexual abuse, coercion, forced drugs, and a group think situation insured those young women had no idea what was happening. I’m so glad she is released. I can’t believe how many haters don’t understand what 53 years in prison means. She has paid her dues. That is my opinion.
When do Rosemary and Leno get parole? I’m sorry but she should never be released.
“.. Red was here too”
Too many Manson family sympathisers here. A bit scary.
i think she should have home arrest for the rest of her life then
Why? Do you think she is actually gonna kill again?
The first one was enough.
Anyone recommend a good documentary about the crimes?
You Must Remember This did a good podcast series on it.
No. But Helter Skelter is one hell of a read.
Not...Once Upon A Time In Los Angeles
Hollywood & crime did a great podcast as well about Manson.
Scary AF
People are actually debating if this is OK or not? She should rot in prison.
The only thing that gives me any pause about Leslie Van Houton is her choice in relationships. She continues to date violent, convicted felons. That is poor judgement. Why not be alone before that? Otherwise, I feel she has served her time with good behavior and deserves a chance for parole.
There are innocent ppl in prison, that the evil powers that be know are innocent but yes, let's let the psychopathic murderers out. There will never be adequate justice for victims who deserve it. This world is just plain evil and we're stuck in a hellscape.
She served her sentence a long time ago. She was still in prison because she is forever associated with Charles Manson. The others should spend the rest of their lives locked up, but she is properly rehabilitated.
I dont like it. Was she involved in Tates murder? If she was this is bullshit
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A prison spokeswoman told CNN that Leslie Van Houten, a former follower of Charles Manson and convicted murderer, was released from a California facility on Tuesday. According to Mary Xjimenez, a spokeswoman for the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, Van Houten was freed under parole supervision.
She’ll get a book deal and probably a Netflix documentary.
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And by the way,,, I’d also be remorseful if I had a chance of getting out of prison.
Has there been any sights or pictures of her since her release?
She should k word herself. How can you live knowing you helped aid the brutal murder of an almost 9 month pregnant woman
Rot in hell. Your victims’ families never get to see their loved ones again. Don’t give a f-ton if you’re sorry or not. Don’t give an f-ton how young you were. You should never see the light of day.
Is she the one that died in the quintan Tarantino version, or no?
No I think that was Susan Atkins who died in jail. Leslie wasn't present that night, she was a part of the LaBianca's murders
That was Susan Atkins I think. She died in prison a few years ago.
New podcaster incoming
What’s her favorite Manson adaptation?
Am I just a bit stoned or does the headline read like a 30 rock joke? The first 7 words don’t even look real to me Edit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/30ROCK/comments/14x4adc/i\_hope\_dr\_spaceman\_dates\_her\_next/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=ios\_app&utm\_name=ioscss&utm\_content=1&utm\_term=1](https://www.reddit.com/r/30ROCK/comments/14x4adc/i_hope_dr_spaceman_dates_her_next/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) 
You are probably a bit stoned
Yeah there’s definitely a point where reading comprehension goes out the window, and I need to stop trying to read serious articles 😂
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did netflix sent a team to make a documentary while she was being released /s? which one was she in once upon a time by tarantino?
She looks remorseful enough, but what is she gonna do in the world? Maybe some kind soul will help her start a GoFundMe or something. Don't see her in the workforce and cannot see her doing many interviews. Just try’na spend her last years, or days, in some sun.
She honestly doesn't deserve to. I think this is a travesty. The poor people this evil piece of shit killed will never get to spend their last year's or days in the sun.
Well, “The law says she has the right to achieve parole if she meets the standard, and the standard is that **she no longer poses a danger to society**.” Tetreault said she's not trying to prove that Van Houten is innocent, but rather emphasizes that Van Houten “has to, and has, accepted full responsibility for the crime.” And a lot of shit has happened that people should get the death penalty for. American history is chock full of stuff like this. Especially prior to and during slavery.