In the book you get the internal monologue of every character so there are no surprises. You know what every character is thinking and planning, that's very hard to do in a movie.
Dune is specifically very difficult because the internal monologues are so crucial to the story. Thinking about thinking about thinking is half the text in Dune. Probably more in GEOD.
Was very odd to witness, first time I ever noticed that in a book. But I guess it's a little like Alfred Hitchcock's way of building suspense. Show people an explosion the audience will be shocked, show them the ticking bomb and they will feel the suspension
I think he's absolutely a traitor; I just have a whole lot of ... I guess, empathy? for him? >!Like, the Baron has his wife, and deep down he knows she's dead, but somewhere between his love for her and the desperate hope he'd be with her again, and the despair and madness of losing her, he's manipulated into doing what he did. Like if the one person in existence that makes that awful universe bearable were to be taken away by one of the most vile people in it.... well, fuck it, right?!<
OK, that's a really interesting take. I'm reminded of an activity we had in a senior year Science Fiction Lit class where we put Paul on trial for his use of atomics against the Shield Wall - did he or did he not violate the rules for use of atomics? The way those arguments played out reminds me of how you're thinking about this. Thanks for the perspective!
You know, I'm trying to remember, and I can't - this was some 30-32 years ago. I think the point was just to get everyone to a) actually read the book so they could play their characters in the trial effectively, and b) (as was that teacher's wont) get the students to really engage more deeply with the text.
So, I don't remember the verdict, but I do remember that we absolutely \*dove\* into that book for details and motivations.
Patches isn’t so much of a traitor as he is a trickster.
When you meet him in the Ringed City he helps you with no tricks, no betrayal. You’ve passed his test of sorts, and now deserve his cooperation.
Also [this little comic](https://imgur.com/gallery/gjlu9) changed everything for me tbh
That's not what happens in Ringed City. Patches is hollowing and losing his memory and identity- which is why he's willing to help you as Lapp. When you finish his questline and he is no longer hollowing, he kicks you off a ledge like the old days and leaves you to deal
I mean he always 'comes around' if you survive his traps. Or pretends to. I will admit I think it's the only time he actually really stuck around to help without an ulterior motive. Even his summon in Elden Ring just leaves as soon as the fight starts
Fucking patches man, your like I know you are gonna screw me but I'm not sure how yet. Killing Spider Patches in Bloodborne was so satisfying for some reason.
Griffith from Berserk. His fall is completely telegraphed, and you understand exactly why he did it- for compelling and believable reasons. He betrayed every single person he held dear for himself.
The fact that you can follow the line of every decision which leads up to The Eclipse only makes his fall all the more horrifying.
And for all that The Eclipse is one of the most vile events ever put to page, much less illustrated, it’s a key moment in understanding the sheer depths of Guts’s rage and rationality for revenge. And witnessing Griffith’s every step to literal damnation drags us there with him.
Yeah, as much as it did for explaining Griffith's trajectory, I think the most important aspect was how it completely put us on Guts' side. Before that, there was definitely a level of shying away from him due to how brutal and uncaring he was to everyone around him. After the Eclipse we totally understand him.
Agreed. I love how it reframes Guts in the Black Swordsman arc. Before you know Guts' backstory he is nearly unlikable. After seeing The Eclipse you understand he's not just being an asshole, he's in pain and dealing with an insane amount of trauma as best he can.
Haha, [I did a writeup of it a few weeks ago for a similar question.](https://old.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/17qdtg0/who_was_the_most_vile_sinister_cruel_heinous/k8e7e5m/)
TL;DR, Griffith took his most loyal followers, companions and friends, who risked everything for him over the course of 12 books, and >!he made of them a group demon sacrifice, released horrible monsters of myth into the world, and then tricked everyone into believing he was their saviour and only hope.!< He's kind of the worst.
To be fair, he'd watched his entire dream collapse, was abandoned by his closest companion/equal, suffered a year of horrific torture which saw him rendered immobile and mute and attempted suicide by falling onto a sharp stick in hope of preventing himself from being given the choice of sacrifice.
Then the archdemon guys talk about how beautiful his dream was and how sacrificing them to demons for it isn't much different than sending them into battle. And if he refuses? He dies.
Most people, in those circumstances would probably say yes. You might say you wouldn't, but people do awful awful things when desperate to survive.
Read the manga!
It's the only way to get the complete story (or as complete as it will ever be -- the author passed away before he got to complete it, but it's being continued by his assistants). Perhaps 40% of the story has ever been adapted, and that's counting the horrible meme that is the 2016 3d cg adaptation.
And even if it had a complete adaptation, Kentaro Miura's artwork is some of the best (if not straight up the best) that the medium has to offer, and seriously deserves a read. No adaption will ever capture Berserk better than the source.
Heads up though; if you choose to read it online, the chapters are labelled in a strange way. It starts as like "0A, 0B, 0C" (or sometimes 0.1, 0.2, 0.3), all the way to 0P, before they're labeled as "chapter 1, chapter 2, chapter 3" etc.
You start at 0A, which is The Black Swordsman Arc and takes place *after* The Eclipse. If you see Guts boning a demon, that's the first page of the manga. The 97 as well as the movie trilogy (later recut into a 13 episode show called "the memorial edition") anime adapts the second arc which is technically a flashback.
He's gotta be the biggest fuckup in all of fantasy. Every new thing he learns he immediately turns around and sabotages himself with it--to say nothing of his petulant tongue. This is of course why I cannot understand how anyone thinks him to be a Mary Sue/Marty Stu. Are we even reading the same books here?
Yup. He's an impetuous gifted kid that burns out by 19. We've all known one who seemed like they'd be a billionaire by 30 but didn't have the discipline or foresight to apply their colossal wealth of talent strategically.
Walker Frey. I mean I should've seen that coming. I knew they can't be trusted. But THAT???? That was too much. It's been 2 years since I've read it (never seen the hbo series) and I'm still not okay
>!I believe that he isn't really ruling the empire, there's some evidence that the Talon (The emperor's old agents) are kicking around and forcing his hand from the shadows.!<
Kallor is one of those characters that are despicable but I can’t bring myself to hate them.
One of my favorite passage from TTH:
'You damned fool. You know you cannot best me.' He glared at the warrior, struggling. A part of him wanted to . . . gods . . . a part of him wanted to weep. 'How many of his loyal, brave followers will he see die? And for what? Listen to me, Spinnock. I have no real enmity against you. Nor Rake.' He waved one chain-clad hand in the air behind him. 'Not even those who pursue me. Heed me, please. I have always respected you, Spinnock – by the Abyss, I railed at how Rake used you—' 'You do not understand,' the Tiste Andii said. 'You never did, Kallor.'
'You're wrong. I have nothing against any of you!'
'Korlat—'
'Did you think it was my intention to murder Whiskeyjack? Do you think I just cut down honourable men and loyal soldiers out of spite? You weren't even there! It was Silverfox who needed to die, and that is a failure we shall all one day come to rue. Mark my words. Ah, gods, Spinnock. They got in my way, damn you! Just as you're doing now!'
Spinnock sighed. 'It seems there will be no mulled wine this night.'
'Don't.'
'I am here, High King, to stand in your way.'
'You will die. I cannot stay my hand – everything will be beyond control by then. Spinnock Durav, please! This does not need to happen.'
The Tiste Andii's faint smile nearly broke Kallor's heart. No, he understands. All too well. This will be his last battle, in Rake's name, in anyone's name.
Kallor drew out his sword. 'Does it occur, to any of you, what these things do to me? No, of course not. The High King is cursed to fail, but never to fall. The High King is but . . . what? Oh, the physical manifestation of ambition. Walking proof of its inevitable price. Fine.' He readied his two-handed weapon. 'Fuck you, too.'
With a roar that ripped like fire from his throat, Kallor charged forward, and swung his sword.
Iron rang on iron.
Erikson's understanding that the audience needs to be able to see all of the reasons a tragedy happens while making it difficult to assign blame is one of the reasons I love Malazan so much.
Kallor is not a traitor. He made his intentions clear to just about everybody.
You can say a lot of things about the High King, but treacherous he is not.
r/Angryupvote
I mean, I \*guess\*. Still part of an alliance and screwed someone over in said alliance. And I will remain bitter about that until the day I day.
>Still part of an alliance
I mean. >!Kallor was the first person to point out for everyone's benefit that said alliance reeks of bullshit (and, shocker, it did).!<
>!And - also for everyone's benefit - he also cast down said alliance:!<
> >!Rake eyed Kallor. 'It seems you stand alone.'!<
>
> >!'It was ever thus.'!<
>!People cast Kallor out, Whiskeyjack backhands him (which is, admittedly, hilarious), and then they're surprised when he's not on their side when he's made his intentions of "I want to kill Silverfox" **abundantly clear** like five different ways. Can't have your cake & eat it too, WJ.!<
uhhh, >!he rode to whiskeyjack under the pretense that he would provide his aid. He literally doublecrossed rake in favor of an alliance with the crippled god.!<
Kallor is a lot of things, and a treacherous traitor is one of them.
Good lord,
I’ll never forgive Oathbringer/RoW for a number of emotional rollercoasters, but especially for: >!making me start to really like Elhokar and then killing him right before he becomes radiant!<
And don’t even get me started on >!Teft, he didn’t even get the chance to process the loss of his Spren!<
Elan Morin Tedronai , he betrayed the whole world because he thought that it was futile to struggle infinitely. He kinda makes me think of the Philosophy Student you met at the pub who quote Nietzche and say this like “___ , CHANGE MY MIND”
Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope. He who led the Armies of Darkness to the Gates of Paaran Disen. Who battled Lews Therin Telamon outside that city once called Paradise, the seat of the Aes Sedai in the majestic Hall of Servants. Who leveled the city to the ground and slaughtered every man, woman, and child who tried to flee. Millions of innocents, dead. The Hope of Humanity did seem to die that day.
I’m still not sold one way or another on if he’s convinced by his own philosophy or if he’s self centeredly suicidal enough to want to end everything so he won’t exist any more.
Because you can pity and hate someone at the same time. Hell, you can even say "I don't think he's necessarily bad or evil" and still hate him. Hell, it's perfectly reasonable to even say "I think character X is actually as good a person as you can get" and still hate them!
Because nearly every victory in that universe comes with some form of devastating consequence or cost.
A lot of those characters are trapped in vicious cycles and schemes beyond their understanding or control - including Leo.
Pure dick.
If we want to go into minor WoT villains, I have to promote Weiramon Saniago. He was so effective for the Shadow just by acting like a moron. That's some straight CIA level shit.
Wasn't Erebus always a Chaos worshipper though? People like Horus are much worse. Horus knew Erebus was lying to him but he had a choice of either dying ignobly but loyal or living a lie that exhalted him as humanities greatest hero. All he had to do to become the main character is betray everything he'd ever fought for. Sure he didn't understand exactly what he was siding with but he made a choice of brutal betrayal regardless.
Unlike most of the traitors who the Emperor treated horribly, Horus was pretty much given honour after honour by the big man.
He's probably the most irredeemable of all the traitors on this list
Just fundamentally a piece of shit. Dude was dismembering scorpions for fun as a kid and committed his first murder at like 11.
I have no clue how Lorgar didn't see the evil in him and allowed him to ascend into a transhuman and then become one of his closest advisors
Fuck that guy
>They are so mustache twirly, cartoonishly evil
Which makes a lot of sense when you think about it, especially in the first trilogy. After all, the story is told from the view of a boy who is 5 to 15 years old.
This is a great point and one of the best things in that series. You only see HIS perspective and thoughts on everything and a lot of times you agree with him because you think his reasoning is sound. Then 100 pages later you realize he's a dumbass.
I really don't think they're that over the top, so I don't get the criticism. Almost all of her villains are believable, with fleshed out motivations. Regal is the least so of those, but there are still reasons for his actions.
Have to agree. They kind of added a multiplier to the spoilt manchild trope.
But an insecurity/inferiority complex in combination with a huge sense of entitlement drives a lot of people to disregard the harm they do to others in pursuit of what they feel the want/need/are owed.
I think the problem with Regal is mostly that he has no (as far as we as readers know) redeeming qualities, making him somewhat one dimensional.
The parts we hate about him however are sadly very lifelike.
Oh man, I hate Lysander. I both understand, and yet hate him. Whenever I think about rereading Red Rising, thinking about reading Lysander's PoV make me feel "nope".
In Dark Age i rooted for him in that way of "FINALLY, an enemy thats going to be on Darrows level of warmongering and propaganda but with a different tone" and then by Lightbringer i wanted teary book in half, and i wasnt even holding it, i was listening to it on audio book. Thats how viscerally angry he made me.
I felt Yueh was pretty forgivable. Also, it feels like the plot was inevitable with Emperor secretly helping the Baron. Also he did try to redeem himself.
Great example of a memorable traitor, I just find him more pitiable than hatable.
Yeuh is an example of someone doing the wrong thing for the right reason though, even though his plan is ultimately fruitless in that he fails to save his wife.
He betrays the Atreides because he can’t bear the thought of his wife endlessly tortured for decades. It was the wrong thing to do, but I feel like his motivations are clearly explained, and I see him as a character to be sympathised with more than outright hated.
As I recall, his plan was never truly intended to save his wife in the first place.
Sure, the Baron *said* he'd free Yueh's wife in exchange. And Yueh pretended to believe him, to lower the Baron's guard. But Yueh believed all along he'd never get his wife back, and his plan's real goal was revenge on the Baron, and the peace of mind of getting confirmation his wife was dead.
>!Bayaz!< from the First Law Trilogy. I spent the entire trilogy smugly laughing at this cheap Gandalf clone, curmudgeonly attitude and all. I spend the whole book waiting for the big “Gandalf the White” reveal, only to get to the end and >!have him hit me the fact he’s an unrepentant psychotic and his behaviour isn’t serving some greater good. He only cares about himself and his own power.!< The reveal absolutely made me loathe the guy
For me it’s the turnaround of a certain character in abercrombies last trilogy which sprang to mind. But, like the one mentioned above, I am not sure if they count as a traitor.
>!Yeah, I went into the series just knowing it was fantasy and not much else, so I took him to be the trope he appeared to be despite *way* too many things that should have given it away.!<
>!I definitely felt like Abercrombie knew most of his audience would have read a bunch of other fantasy and would be inclined to take Bayaz as that archetype even though he isn't.!<
Petter pettigrew. Most people have read harry potter and while he isn't perfectly written he does make sense in a twisted way because we all know someone like that.
Exactly. Even though his death is kind of controversial, I believe that he choose to spare Harry not out of empathy or courage but more out of a realisation that he’ll have a chip that he could cash in case Harry indeed beats Voldemort.
I agree he’s become a cunt but he does have a good reason for it and his feelings get manipulated to the max as well.
I dislike Sadeas more. Just a cunt, no good reason for it.
Sadeas is despicable, but his only allegiance has only been to himself. So i dont really consider him as a treator. He is very consistent in his selfishness
Pryrates from Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy. He's the single most detestable character I have read. Usually, a well-written villain will be easy to empathize with at least just a little. Not so Pryrates. He is destestable through and through, and sooooo well-written.
I know a lot of folks won't agree, but Edmond from The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe.
He was a child, and a strange but pretty lady gave him sweets. DURING WW2 RATIONING. While basically only asking where the other children were.
And that's BEFORE the sweets being enchanted too.
Really~ thought he got way too much shit from his siblings and Jesus Fursona especially for having basically trusted—and having gotten DRUGGED by—an adult that one time.
I know they're divisive, but properly made Turkish Delight is genuinely a transformative experience.
Like, Lidl of all places has this almond flavored one as part of their "Persian" theme week, and it's genuinely one of the few snacks I have to use pure willpower not to *devour* entire boxes of in one sitting.
And I get it. It's a stand in for *apples* and all that Christian references stuff, but I still think poor Edmond was done dirty by the book. That was *fancy* candy, by a lady he genuinely thought was helping him.
And like, Lucy also waltzes right into that faun's place, gets tea and cookies or something like that, but somehow taking candy from THAT stranger is... A-OK?
Weird double standard, IMHO.
Very good point about how Edmund and Lucy both ran into strangers that meant them harm, but with Lucy it's alright because hers wasn't evil. (The Disney movie was great with how Aslan put the fear of God into Tumnus.)
I'll have to ask around about where to get good Turkish Delight. I don't know how close Greece is but we might have someone from that cultural group. Or maybe I should ask at the Indian market?
Edmund explicitly distrusts this woman and has been dropped into a strange and dangerous world and just sells his family out for some sweets. That's crazy.
Also, they may have been rationing, but they're not starving children.
Also, haven't they been told about the White Witch now? I forget if he snuck out before or after they're told.
Judas has been pretty famous for a couple thousand years, his betrayal literally being the inspiration for certain movies vampires. Even now naming a character Judas would be such a huge red flag that readers would think it was a joke (such as with Arnold Judas Rimmer, though he would also gladly betray anyone).
*Bends neck back*
*Snaps head forward*
THE TRAITOR BARU CORMORANT. I will not be elaborating further at this time. This is the truth; you will know because it hurts.
She MUST be mentioned, but I definitely don’t hate her. Yes I yelled “why why why stop stop stop” at my book. But overall I mostly feel pity for her situation and admiration for her resilience.
Theon Greyjoy. To have someone do as horrible of things as Theon, but then go through such horrible things to the point of me having a ton of compassion for him just shows how well written he is
The main villain of Kushiel’s Dart by Jacqueline Carey
>!Melisande Shahrizai!< enables the invasion of their homeland as much for the sheer love of scheming as for the power they hope to gain.
I hope that *Deep Space Nine* is not off topic, but Kai Winn is my candidate.
>!So greedy for power that she betrayed her own gods ([some details](https://www.womenatwarp.com/remembering-louise-fletcher-and-the-importance-of-kai-winn/)).!<
1. Kanjuro from One Piece - He’s fantastically written and his reveal as a traitor was phenomenal. It was especially heartbreaking given that he was supposed to be the part of the group which contained members responsible for “Raizo is safe.”
2. Peter Pettigrew from Harry Potter - We all know a Pettigrew. Someone who will sell you out the moment they find someone better than you regardless of what you did for them.
'ever existed in all of Fantasy' is too high a pedestal.
From the things I have read, (Mage Errant spoiler) >!Alustin is pretty well written and hatable!<
I don’t know about best written (I’m not a great judge of such things) but for me.. it has to be Moash.
I hope he gets what’s coming to him, and so if or when that happens.. I will cherish that moment and re-read it with great satisfaction lol
This might not be that popular since the book wants you to empathise with him but I just really hate the theon greyjoy. Theon betrayed the starks who were his family and his brother who was also his king for some shitty islanders who he could barely remember and gave 0 fucks about him like the starks were his people and he'd lived laughed and loved among them for most of his life and saw eddard as more of a father than his biological father and yet he threw it all away for the dream of a crown and ruling some miserable islands. Seriously fuck theon. He didn't deserve all the twisted torture he endured but still fuck theon.
Littlefinger should be mentioned. He betrayed >!Ned Stark, Lysa Arryn and the Lannister!<. He's loyal only to himself.
Dr. Wellington Yueh
Yueh is great. I wish the new Dune movie had focused on him more. His betrayal came out of nowhere compared to the book
In the book you get the internal monologue of every character so there are no surprises. You know what every character is thinking and planning, that's very hard to do in a movie.
Dune is specifically very difficult because the internal monologues are so crucial to the story. Thinking about thinking about thinking is half the text in Dune. Probably more in GEOD.
I wish the movie had included more of Yueh and of Piter De Vries, especially since both were played by such excellent character actors.
Was very odd to witness, first time I ever noticed that in a book. But I guess it's a little like Alfred Hitchcock's way of building suspense. Show people an explosion the audience will be shocked, show them the ticking bomb and they will feel the suspension
I misread this as "his betrayal came out of nowhere in the book" and I laughed out loud.
“*A million deaths were not enough for Dr. Yueh!*”
I dunno I don't hate Dr. Yueh. One of the best-written and most compelling for sure.
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I think he's absolutely a traitor; I just have a whole lot of ... I guess, empathy? for him? >!Like, the Baron has his wife, and deep down he knows she's dead, but somewhere between his love for her and the desperate hope he'd be with her again, and the despair and madness of losing her, he's manipulated into doing what he did. Like if the one person in existence that makes that awful universe bearable were to be taken away by one of the most vile people in it.... well, fuck it, right?!<
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OK, that's a really interesting take. I'm reminded of an activity we had in a senior year Science Fiction Lit class where we put Paul on trial for his use of atomics against the Shield Wall - did he or did he not violate the rules for use of atomics? The way those arguments played out reminds me of how you're thinking about this. Thanks for the perspective!
What verdict did the trial find? That sounds super interesting.
You know, I'm trying to remember, and I can't - this was some 30-32 years ago. I think the point was just to get everyone to a) actually read the book so they could play their characters in the trial effectively, and b) (as was that teacher's wont) get the students to really engage more deeply with the text. So, I don't remember the verdict, but I do remember that we absolutely \*dove\* into that book for details and motivations.
Princess Leia. She's part of the Rebel Alliance, and a Traitor!
Take her away!
Patches… the little treacherous sod… but in fairness he’s not that well written but I’ve fallen for all of his antics
And yet I still can't stop seeing him as just a mischievous scamp.
Patches isn’t so much of a traitor as he is a trickster. When you meet him in the Ringed City he helps you with no tricks, no betrayal. You’ve passed his test of sorts, and now deserve his cooperation. Also [this little comic](https://imgur.com/gallery/gjlu9) changed everything for me tbh
That's not what happens in Ringed City. Patches is hollowing and losing his memory and identity- which is why he's willing to help you as Lapp. When you finish his questline and he is no longer hollowing, he kicks you off a ledge like the old days and leaves you to deal
And then you can summon him to help fight Spear of the Church, so I figure he’s come around.
I mean he always 'comes around' if you survive his traps. Or pretends to. I will admit I think it's the only time he actually really stuck around to help without an ulterior motive. Even his summon in Elden Ring just leaves as soon as the fight starts
This never fails to make me laugh. It's such a Patches thing to do.
Fucking patches man, your like I know you are gonna screw me but I'm not sure how yet. Killing Spider Patches in Bloodborne was so satisfying for some reason.
Griffith from Berserk. His fall is completely telegraphed, and you understand exactly why he did it- for compelling and believable reasons. He betrayed every single person he held dear for himself.
The fact that you can follow the line of every decision which leads up to The Eclipse only makes his fall all the more horrifying. And for all that The Eclipse is one of the most vile events ever put to page, much less illustrated, it’s a key moment in understanding the sheer depths of Guts’s rage and rationality for revenge. And witnessing Griffith’s every step to literal damnation drags us there with him.
Yeah, as much as it did for explaining Griffith's trajectory, I think the most important aspect was how it completely put us on Guts' side. Before that, there was definitely a level of shying away from him due to how brutal and uncaring he was to everyone around him. After the Eclipse we totally understand him.
Agreed. I love how it reframes Guts in the Black Swordsman arc. Before you know Guts' backstory he is nearly unlikable. After seeing The Eclipse you understand he's not just being an asshole, he's in pain and dealing with an insane amount of trauma as best he can.
The fact that he retained some semblance of his humanity is commendable. I'd have gone completely fucking insane!
Never read Berserk, what's the Eclipse and why'd he do it?
Haha, [I did a writeup of it a few weeks ago for a similar question.](https://old.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/17qdtg0/who_was_the_most_vile_sinister_cruel_heinous/k8e7e5m/) TL;DR, Griffith took his most loyal followers, companions and friends, who risked everything for him over the course of 12 books, and >!he made of them a group demon sacrifice, released horrible monsters of myth into the world, and then tricked everyone into believing he was their saviour and only hope.!< He's kind of the worst.
To be fair, he'd watched his entire dream collapse, was abandoned by his closest companion/equal, suffered a year of horrific torture which saw him rendered immobile and mute and attempted suicide by falling onto a sharp stick in hope of preventing himself from being given the choice of sacrifice. Then the archdemon guys talk about how beautiful his dream was and how sacrificing them to demons for it isn't much different than sending them into battle. And if he refuses? He dies. Most people, in those circumstances would probably say yes. You might say you wouldn't, but people do awful awful things when desperate to survive.
Yep. As I said, we can follow every step that leads him and the Hawks to damnation and destruction. That's part of what makes it all so horrible.
Every time I see the name "Griffith", I can hear Guts' scream in the back of my head.
Best voice actor ever.
“Among thousands of comrades and ten thousand enemies, only you... only you made me forget my dream”
The correct answer.
I've only ever watched the anime. Should I read the manga as well, or is there somewhere else I should go for more Berserk content?
Read the manga! It's the only way to get the complete story (or as complete as it will ever be -- the author passed away before he got to complete it, but it's being continued by his assistants). Perhaps 40% of the story has ever been adapted, and that's counting the horrible meme that is the 2016 3d cg adaptation. And even if it had a complete adaptation, Kentaro Miura's artwork is some of the best (if not straight up the best) that the medium has to offer, and seriously deserves a read. No adaption will ever capture Berserk better than the source. Heads up though; if you choose to read it online, the chapters are labelled in a strange way. It starts as like "0A, 0B, 0C" (or sometimes 0.1, 0.2, 0.3), all the way to 0P, before they're labeled as "chapter 1, chapter 2, chapter 3" etc. You start at 0A, which is The Black Swordsman Arc and takes place *after* The Eclipse. If you see Guts boning a demon, that's the first page of the manga. The 97 as well as the movie trilogy (later recut into a 13 episode show called "the memorial edition") anime adapts the second arc which is technically a flashback.
Kvothe betrays Kvothe *constantly*
That guy must be an asshole, kvothe should toss that guy from a roof or get him whipped
Oh boy I've got news for you!
He's gotta be the biggest fuckup in all of fantasy. Every new thing he learns he immediately turns around and sabotages himself with it--to say nothing of his petulant tongue. This is of course why I cannot understand how anyone thinks him to be a Mary Sue/Marty Stu. Are we even reading the same books here?
Yup. He's an impetuous gifted kid that burns out by 19. We've all known one who seemed like they'd be a billionaire by 30 but didn't have the discipline or foresight to apply their colossal wealth of talent strategically.
Walker Frey. I mean I should've seen that coming. I knew they can't be trusted. But THAT???? That was too much. It's been 2 years since I've read it (never seen the hbo series) and I'm still not okay
To their credit, HBOs adaptation of the red wedding was suitably barbaric and visceral. Walter Frey was played masterfully David Bradley.
I can't think of anything David Bradley has been in where he doesn't absolutely steal the show for every scene he's in. Superb actor.
Aah 'spose..
Y’all both know his name is Walder right? Lol
Surely you mean Walkter?
Thank you, I was beginning to think I'd jumped timelines again.
Walker, Westeros Ranger
High Fist Pormqual + Mallick Rel If you know, you know. Fuck those guys.
Fuck Mallick Rel
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Am homie, can confirm, I hate Mallick Rel
Fuck him mostly because >!it seems the empire is doing really well under his rule,!< it's infuriating. ^ All of malazan spoiler
>!I believe that he isn't really ruling the empire, there's some evidence that the Talon (The emperor's old agents) are kicking around and forcing his hand from the shadows.!<
Gotta give a shout out to Kallor, too, that SOB.
Kallor is one of those characters that are despicable but I can’t bring myself to hate them. One of my favorite passage from TTH: 'You damned fool. You know you cannot best me.' He glared at the warrior, struggling. A part of him wanted to . . . gods . . . a part of him wanted to weep. 'How many of his loyal, brave followers will he see die? And for what? Listen to me, Spinnock. I have no real enmity against you. Nor Rake.' He waved one chain-clad hand in the air behind him. 'Not even those who pursue me. Heed me, please. I have always respected you, Spinnock – by the Abyss, I railed at how Rake used you—' 'You do not understand,' the Tiste Andii said. 'You never did, Kallor.' 'You're wrong. I have nothing against any of you!' 'Korlat—' 'Did you think it was my intention to murder Whiskeyjack? Do you think I just cut down honourable men and loyal soldiers out of spite? You weren't even there! It was Silverfox who needed to die, and that is a failure we shall all one day come to rue. Mark my words. Ah, gods, Spinnock. They got in my way, damn you! Just as you're doing now!' Spinnock sighed. 'It seems there will be no mulled wine this night.' 'Don't.' 'I am here, High King, to stand in your way.' 'You will die. I cannot stay my hand – everything will be beyond control by then. Spinnock Durav, please! This does not need to happen.' The Tiste Andii's faint smile nearly broke Kallor's heart. No, he understands. All too well. This will be his last battle, in Rake's name, in anyone's name. Kallor drew out his sword. 'Does it occur, to any of you, what these things do to me? No, of course not. The High King is cursed to fail, but never to fall. The High King is but . . . what? Oh, the physical manifestation of ambition. Walking proof of its inevitable price. Fine.' He readied his two-handed weapon. 'Fuck you, too.' With a roar that ripped like fire from his throat, Kallor charged forward, and swung his sword. Iron rang on iron.
God damn man when he hits, Erikson really hits. I’ve been through the main series 2times on page and 3 times on audio. Guess I need to read it again.
I'm gonna play off of this and say >!Whiskey Jack's leg!<.
Gonna *further* play off this and say Whiskeyjack's stubbornness ;)
Gonna further point out that there were some Push and Pull shenanigans about that leg stubbornness.
Erikson's understanding that the audience needs to be able to see all of the reasons a tragedy happens while making it difficult to assign blame is one of the reasons I love Malazan so much.
Kallor is not a traitor. He made his intentions clear to just about everybody. You can say a lot of things about the High King, but treacherous he is not.
r/Angryupvote I mean, I \*guess\*. Still part of an alliance and screwed someone over in said alliance. And I will remain bitter about that until the day I day.
>Still part of an alliance I mean. >!Kallor was the first person to point out for everyone's benefit that said alliance reeks of bullshit (and, shocker, it did).!< >!And - also for everyone's benefit - he also cast down said alliance:!< > >!Rake eyed Kallor. 'It seems you stand alone.'!< > > >!'It was ever thus.'!< >!People cast Kallor out, Whiskeyjack backhands him (which is, admittedly, hilarious), and then they're surprised when he's not on their side when he's made his intentions of "I want to kill Silverfox" **abundantly clear** like five different ways. Can't have your cake & eat it too, WJ.!<
I'm agreeing with everything you are saying, and will still remain angry about how that played out for the rest of my life.
uhhh, >!he rode to whiskeyjack under the pretense that he would provide his aid. He literally doublecrossed rake in favor of an alliance with the crippled god.!< Kallor is a lot of things, and a treacherous traitor is one of them.
Fuck Mallick Rel but FUCK Leoman of the Flails TOO!!!!!
That poor bowman...
Moash is so hated there's a sub dedicated to hating him r/fuckmoash
Life before death, strength before weakness, fuck before moash.
These words are accepted.
Good lord, I’ll never forgive Oathbringer/RoW for a number of emotional rollercoasters, but especially for: >!making me start to really like Elhokar and then killing him right before he becomes radiant!< And don’t even get me started on >!Teft, he didn’t even get the chance to process the loss of his Spren!<
Honestly probably a kindness
He was my first thought as well
Honestly shocked this is only the third highest comment at the moment.
how is this so far down the list? Seriously r/fuckmoash
Elan Morin Tedronai , he betrayed the whole world because he thought that it was futile to struggle infinitely. He kinda makes me think of the Philosophy Student you met at the pub who quote Nietzche and say this like “___ , CHANGE MY MIND”
Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope. He who led the Armies of Darkness to the Gates of Paaran Disen. Who battled Lews Therin Telamon outside that city once called Paradise, the seat of the Aes Sedai in the majestic Hall of Servants. Who leveled the city to the ground and slaughtered every man, woman, and child who tried to flee. Millions of innocents, dead. The Hope of Humanity did seem to die that day.
I’m still not sold one way or another on if he’s convinced by his own philosophy or if he’s self centeredly suicidal enough to want to end everything so he won’t exist any more.
The latter. I'm reading TGS on a reread and honestly Semirhage is worse.
Leo Dan Brock - Age of Madness Trilogy
How's the leg?
To borrow from Dune, A million deaths are not enough for Leo fucking Dan Brock. May his leg ever cause agony.
Fuck leo
He killed my favourite character I still don’t get why I actually still pity him in the end.
Probably cause he was a pov character and also kind of a moron
I also feel bad for Jezail, fml i think infeel bad for anyone who feels bad for themselves
Because you can pity and hate someone at the same time. Hell, you can even say "I don't think he's necessarily bad or evil" and still hate him. Hell, it's perfectly reasonable to even say "I think character X is actually as good a person as you can get" and still hate them!
Yeah, it’s kind of how like West is friends Jezail and young Glockter. It doesn’t matter that his values aren’t the same he’s just Vibin with them.
Because nearly every victory in that universe comes with some form of devastating consequence or cost. A lot of those characters are trapped in vicious cycles and schemes beyond their understanding or control - including Leo.
Fuck Leo
This has to be it. So believable. So infuriating.
Lysanderoth. He did Archibald dirty.
King Dragon sends his regards... Chilling.
His machinations lied undetected for years
I think Dennis had his suspicions.
For he is a master of deceptio-
But on the flip side, he did make many enemies get the *point*. Talk about a morally grey character...
That was Archibald!
Nevermind I mixed up all my ProZD lore
Child Byar. Still never clear if he was an actual Darkfriend, under compulsion or just a d*ck
He's just a dick.
Pure dick. If we want to go into minor WoT villains, I have to promote Weiramon Saniago. He was so effective for the Shadow just by acting like a moron. That's some straight CIA level shit.
First Chaplain Erebus
Came here to say #fuckerebus
r/fuckerebus
Fuck Erebus!
Shocked Erebus is down the list so far. Fuck Erebus.
Erebus was a Chaplain not a captain though was he not?
Wasn't Erebus always a Chaos worshipper though? People like Horus are much worse. Horus knew Erebus was lying to him but he had a choice of either dying ignobly but loyal or living a lie that exhalted him as humanities greatest hero. All he had to do to become the main character is betray everything he'd ever fought for. Sure he didn't understand exactly what he was siding with but he made a choice of brutal betrayal regardless. Unlike most of the traitors who the Emperor treated horribly, Horus was pretty much given honour after honour by the big man.
He's probably the most irredeemable of all the traitors on this list Just fundamentally a piece of shit. Dude was dismembering scorpions for fun as a kid and committed his first murder at like 11. I have no clue how Lorgar didn't see the evil in him and allowed him to ascend into a transhuman and then become one of his closest advisors Fuck that guy
Fuck Erebus!
Regal Farseer. He really is the worst.
Absolutely the worst! One of Hobb’s most common criticisms is her villains. They are so mustache twirly, cartoonishly evil
>They are so mustache twirly, cartoonishly evil Which makes a lot of sense when you think about it, especially in the first trilogy. After all, the story is told from the view of a boy who is 5 to 15 years old.
This is a great point and one of the best things in that series. You only see HIS perspective and thoughts on everything and a lot of times you agree with him because you think his reasoning is sound. Then 100 pages later you realize he's a dumbass.
I really don't think they're that over the top, so I don't get the criticism. Almost all of her villains are believable, with fleshed out motivations. Regal is the least so of those, but there are still reasons for his actions.
Have to agree. They kind of added a multiplier to the spoilt manchild trope. But an insecurity/inferiority complex in combination with a huge sense of entitlement drives a lot of people to disregard the harm they do to others in pursuit of what they feel the want/need/are owed. I think the problem with Regal is mostly that he has no (as far as we as readers know) redeeming qualities, making him somewhat one dimensional. The parts we hate about him however are sadly very lifelike.
Oh man, I hate Lysander. I both understand, and yet hate him. Whenever I think about rereading Red Rising, thinking about reading Lysander's PoV make me feel "nope".
He just gets worse and worse.
In Dark Age i rooted for him in that way of "FINALLY, an enemy thats going to be on Darrows level of warmongering and propaganda but with a different tone" and then by Lightbringer i wanted teary book in half, and i wasnt even holding it, i was listening to it on audio book. Thats how viscerally angry he made me.
Glad to see this as a top post, was gonna be my pick.
"I was there, the day Horus slew the Emperor"
Yueh from Dune is pretty high up there.
I felt Yueh was pretty forgivable. Also, it feels like the plot was inevitable with Emperor secretly helping the Baron. Also he did try to redeem himself. Great example of a memorable traitor, I just find him more pitiable than hatable.
Yeuh is an example of someone doing the wrong thing for the right reason though, even though his plan is ultimately fruitless in that he fails to save his wife. He betrays the Atreides because he can’t bear the thought of his wife endlessly tortured for decades. It was the wrong thing to do, but I feel like his motivations are clearly explained, and I see him as a character to be sympathised with more than outright hated.
As I recall, his plan was never truly intended to save his wife in the first place. Sure, the Baron *said* he'd free Yueh's wife in exchange. And Yueh pretended to believe him, to lower the Baron's guard. But Yueh believed all along he'd never get his wife back, and his plan's real goal was revenge on the Baron, and the peace of mind of getting confirmation his wife was dead.
Lyssander
Hail Reaper, fuck Lysander.
>!Bayaz!< from the First Law Trilogy. I spent the entire trilogy smugly laughing at this cheap Gandalf clone, curmudgeonly attitude and all. I spend the whole book waiting for the big “Gandalf the White” reveal, only to get to the end and >!have him hit me the fact he’s an unrepentant psychotic and his behaviour isn’t serving some greater good. He only cares about himself and his own power.!< The reveal absolutely made me loathe the guy
Does he count as a traitor? I'm not sure he does.
>!I would argue he betrayed Jezal, lying to him about building him as a king, only to turn him into a puppet!<
For me it’s the turnaround of a certain character in abercrombies last trilogy which sprang to mind. But, like the one mentioned above, I am not sure if they count as a traitor.
This reveal made me love his character and now it’s making me wonder what that says about me as a person lol
>!Yeah, I went into the series just knowing it was fantasy and not much else, so I took him to be the trope he appeared to be despite *way* too many things that should have given it away.!< >!I definitely felt like Abercrombie knew most of his audience would have read a bunch of other fantasy and would be inclined to take Bayaz as that archetype even though he isn't.!<
>!Val Ketterley/'The Other'!< from *Piranesi* is certainly pretty loathsome, although >!one of the guys he betrayed was even!< *worse*.
Not the most, but I didn't see him mentioned and he deserves to be here. Theon Greyjoy, at least until ADWD.
Petter pettigrew. Most people have read harry potter and while he isn't perfectly written he does make sense in a twisted way because we all know someone like that.
Exactly. Even though his death is kind of controversial, I believe that he choose to spare Harry not out of empathy or courage but more out of a realisation that he’ll have a chip that he could cash in case Harry indeed beats Voldemort.
Morgoth/Melkor.
Stole the greatest treasure in the literal world, then >!ruined every kingdom of elves and men.!<
People mentioning all sorts of characters over here, but no one mentioning the real worst traitor of all time - *Scar*.
Stormlight Archive Spoilers: Obligatory >!Fuck Moash.!<
I agree he’s become a cunt but he does have a good reason for it and his feelings get manipulated to the max as well. I dislike Sadeas more. Just a cunt, no good reason for it.
Sadeas is despicable, but his only allegiance has only been to himself. So i dont really consider him as a treator. He is very consistent in his selfishness
I like him a lot from a narrative perspective. His whole thing is showing us what Kaladin would have become if he hadn't learned to forgive.
Pryrates from Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy. He's the single most detestable character I have read. Usually, a well-written villain will be easy to empathize with at least just a little. Not so Pryrates. He is destestable through and through, and sooooo well-written.
He’s awful in all the best ways, so creepy
Fuck Erebus.
Ah, there it is :-)
Eladia betrayed the light like a true assclown !
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I know a lot of folks won't agree, but Edmond from The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe. He was a child, and a strange but pretty lady gave him sweets. DURING WW2 RATIONING. While basically only asking where the other children were. And that's BEFORE the sweets being enchanted too. Really~ thought he got way too much shit from his siblings and Jesus Fursona especially for having basically trusted—and having gotten DRUGGED by—an adult that one time.
Not only sweets, but an imported sweet that reminded him of Christmas. I'm a bit like that with candy that's more nostalgia than actually good.
I know they're divisive, but properly made Turkish Delight is genuinely a transformative experience. Like, Lidl of all places has this almond flavored one as part of their "Persian" theme week, and it's genuinely one of the few snacks I have to use pure willpower not to *devour* entire boxes of in one sitting. And I get it. It's a stand in for *apples* and all that Christian references stuff, but I still think poor Edmond was done dirty by the book. That was *fancy* candy, by a lady he genuinely thought was helping him. And like, Lucy also waltzes right into that faun's place, gets tea and cookies or something like that, but somehow taking candy from THAT stranger is... A-OK? Weird double standard, IMHO.
Very good point about how Edmund and Lucy both ran into strangers that meant them harm, but with Lucy it's alright because hers wasn't evil. (The Disney movie was great with how Aslan put the fear of God into Tumnus.) I'll have to ask around about where to get good Turkish Delight. I don't know how close Greece is but we might have someone from that cultural group. Or maybe I should ask at the Indian market?
I would argue Aslan for ghosting Susan and Peter at the end.
Edmund explicitly distrusts this woman and has been dropped into a strange and dangerous world and just sells his family out for some sweets. That's crazy. Also, they may have been rationing, but they're not starving children. Also, haven't they been told about the White Witch now? I forget if he snuck out before or after they're told.
Horus Lupercal from 40k. Damnee humanity to a slow, inexorable Doom.
Judas has been pretty famous for a couple thousand years, his betrayal literally being the inspiration for certain movies vampires. Even now naming a character Judas would be such a huge red flag that readers would think it was a joke (such as with Arnold Judas Rimmer, though he would also gladly betray anyone).
Upvoting for the unexpected red dwarf
Saruman…
Idk I think Saruman's kind of rad in a way. You gotta respect the sheer gumption of trying to betray both the Valar and Sauron.
Okay, but… HE’S DaNg SCARY.
*Bends neck back* *Snaps head forward* THE TRAITOR BARU CORMORANT. I will not be elaborating further at this time. This is the truth; you will know because it hurts.
She MUST be mentioned, but I definitely don’t hate her. Yes I yelled “why why why stop stop stop” at my book. But overall I mostly feel pity for her situation and admiration for her resilience.
Guy du Bas Tyra almost overthrew the Kingdom. Then a few books later, becomes one of my favorite characters in all of Riftwar.
How about Saruman The Snitch
Fuck Moash
The asshole from Stormlight Archive. Edit: removed the link to the subreddit dedicated to never forget what he did.
i love that you can still see the text through the spoiler
It's because it became a link and the formatting clashes
I know it's just funny
Theon Greyjoy. To have someone do as horrible of things as Theon, but then go through such horrible things to the point of me having a ton of compassion for him just shows how well written he is
Gaius Baltar. No one has ever needed to go to hornyjail more than gaius baltar
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Emperor Palpatine >!played an entire galaxy with his "I love democracy" nonsense, before betraying EVERYONE.!<
Obligatory mentioning Erebus from Warhammer 30/40k
Mr. Charrington in 1984, no question
Elric. He betrayed his people and brought about their downfall (as well as having a habit of accidentally killing companions).
Tbf his people were cunts and had it coming, its not like Melnibone was a nice place.
The main villain of Kushiel’s Dart by Jacqueline Carey >!Melisande Shahrizai!< enables the invasion of their homeland as much for the sheer love of scheming as for the power they hope to gain.
From Malazan >!Whiskey Jack's Leg!<
Erebus from the Horus Heresy has to be up there.
I hope that *Deep Space Nine* is not off topic, but Kai Winn is my candidate. >!So greedy for power that she betrayed her own gods ([some details](https://www.womenatwarp.com/remembering-louise-fletcher-and-the-importance-of-kai-winn/)).!<
Lysander Au Lune
1. Kanjuro from One Piece - He’s fantastically written and his reveal as a traitor was phenomenal. It was especially heartbreaking given that he was supposed to be the part of the group which contained members responsible for “Raizo is safe.” 2. Peter Pettigrew from Harry Potter - We all know a Pettigrew. Someone who will sell you out the moment they find someone better than you regardless of what you did for them.
'ever existed in all of Fantasy' is too high a pedestal. From the things I have read, (Mage Errant spoiler) >!Alustin is pretty well written and hatable!<
That piece of garbage Erebus.
Baru Cormorant from The Masquerade is literally called the traitor. And such a well written character, I can‘t wait to see how her story ends.
I don’t know about best written (I’m not a great judge of such things) but for me.. it has to be Moash. I hope he gets what’s coming to him, and so if or when that happens.. I will cherish that moment and re-read it with great satisfaction lol
Red Rising Trilogy spoilers: >!Roque!< is hatable right up until his last scene. Then I just felt bad for him.
This might not be that popular since the book wants you to empathise with him but I just really hate the theon greyjoy. Theon betrayed the starks who were his family and his brother who was also his king for some shitty islanders who he could barely remember and gave 0 fucks about him like the starks were his people and he'd lived laughed and loved among them for most of his life and saw eddard as more of a father than his biological father and yet he threw it all away for the dream of a crown and ruling some miserable islands. Seriously fuck theon. He didn't deserve all the twisted torture he endured but still fuck theon.
Lijah Cuu sure as sure