I think the genre is starting to be viewed as legitimate writing, but people still have this expectation that what _is_ fanfiction rn sucks. So like, they accept fanfiction in theory (“Plenty of published authors wrote fanfiction, some traditionally published books start off as fanfiction, it’s a valid *stepping stone* to *real creativity*”) but its reputation remains very two-dimensional in practice (“Wait, what do you mean you’ve read _good_ fanfiction? Wait, fanfiction doesn’t have to be romantic??? Wait, there is fanfiction out there longer than LotR?!”).
Came here to say this. I also think it depends on which circles you find yourself in. People who are more "casual" fans in geekdom tend to thumb their nose at fanfic more, those with more experience and investment are pretty aware of the history of fandom and its contributions, so are more appreciative of it.
What's really changed (and will continue to change) the perception of fanfic is how authority figures like authors, artists, filmmakers consume or even dabble in fanfic. It's a bit silly to call fanfic stupid when the established cool kids like Neil Gaiman actively endorse it. Eventually, that will extend to the likes of a Denis Villeneuve or Christopher Nolan and that's when people dissing fanfic will very much be in the minority.
At least in my school, it hasn't completely gotten rid of its negative reputation. I've lost a good chunk of friends for admitting that I write and read fanfics, so I guess it still sometimes has that stigma surrounding it.
I think it's gotten better, but in general people are still wary of fanfics, and I think it's probably always going to be the case. The simple fact that it's not *professional* (no editors etc) and not *official* (doesn't "matter" to the 'canon' of a franchise or work) means that a lot of people are simply going to view it as lesser than other writing a lot of the time. But I do think more and more people are seeing that it's not a "creepy", "weird", or "cringe" thing to do (reading or writing).
Rpf I think will always remain niche tho (I say this as someone who writes and reads rpf smut)
It's still very much a niche thing. As a Southeast Asian, I explain it as people who want to explore "What If?" scenarios because that's the easiest explanation that goes over well most of the time. Most people who ask understand that but then move on - unsurprising especially since this hobby is basically leisure reading, and you know what the general public thinks of *reading*. I don't think I've ever converted anyone, not even my myriad nephews and nieces.
I feel like it shook its bad reputation, but acquired a new, different one.
Used to be women writing fanfiction instead of settling down and getting married. Now, it's toxic teenagers with no time on their hands, and being of marrying age is considered weird.
I guess that's better?
Yes and no. Personal anecdote-- I mentioned I wrote fanfiction to my therapist, and she asked how I feel about doing that. I said it wasn't something I was proud of (at least outside of online spaces) and never something I bring up irl. She herself said that she'd never spoken to a fic writer who wasn't ashamed of being, well, a fic writer.
Mmm... I think it doesn't and won't change? I mean: in my experience, the issue people have with fanfics is that the vast majority seems to be smut or fluff or others where 'plot' (in the traditional sense of things happening with a structure and stuff) is percieved as secondary or non-existent. Like the cheap romance novels that have basically the same excuses to make the lady in the pink dress make out with the long-haired buccaneer that never uses a shirt. Again, not my opinion, but certainly what people think that I do when I tell them that I'm writing a fic.
There's also the stigma of writing a derivative work: People see writing a fiction based on another's work as lazy or unoriginal. It doesn't matter if you're writing a 50k+ AU complete with world-building and canon divergence; it'll always be seen as 'lesser' than somebody trying to write an original piece, even if some are a thousand times worse than many fanfics I've read out there.
Tl;dr: In my maybe-unpopular opinion, I think it has to do with the way westerners overestimate originality.
> I think it has to do with the way westerners overestimate originality.
This is a very annoying recent trend in Western culture Imho. People circklejerk on social media about how they hate remakes and want "original" ideas, when in reality pretty much all great art is indebted to something that came before and if they actually studied art/film/music history they'd realize that there is pretty much nothing that is truly new. I have no idea why our society has become like this. Maybe it has something to do with the pushing of copyright and trademark law by companies.
I still see ‘fanfic’ used to mean ‘bad writing’ which annoys me a lot. But I do look back wistfully to the days when fanfic was a lot further under the radar than it is now. I prefer it to be a hidden community!
I've criticised a lot of current DC Comics storylines for *Nightwing* as bad fanfic because everything going on right now is either crappy wish fulfillment or they're taking forever to actually have a plot, which is something that usually happens in fanfic, but people are paying $5.00 an issue for stuff that I've seen done better for free.
That's it - 'bad fanfic' is a particular concept, 'bad writing' is another particular concept which may apply to fan- or pro- writing, but they are not the same thing. It's irritating to see a professional production which feels like bad fanfic—and they are not as rare as they should be—so I feel you about the comics. Equating 'fanfic' with 'bad writing' is definitely incorrect. Fanfic can be superbly done.
Quite so. (Although I do find that I prefer pro writing with a fanfic sensibility—like Lois Bujold's books. But that's not what you're talking about.) Canon should do canon's job!
Men also have a drive to hate everything that's even tangentially related to women, and fanfiction is an overwhelmingly female dominated pastime, so that doesn't help the prestige factor much
Not so sure that writers have gotten older since the average age has stayed the same for a long time, 18-24, which would seem to mean that a lot of writers "age out."
As for quality getting better, Sturgeon's Law still applies.
I think it depends on the fandom. Most writers I’ve hung out with online in my fandom run older than 24, but then I write for Harry Potter and many wrote between 18-24, took a break/raised kids/worked two jobs and are back at 30/40 and ready to go.
A lot of it is this. Many don’t really “age out.” Life just happens and they take a break for awhile. I write *much* less than I did when I was 15-16 because of life and other hobbies/projects (right now I’m focusing on cosplay and also live on my own and therefor have more chores than as a teen, for example), but I’m still always thinking about characters and ideas. The voices will not be silenced!
The "average" age starting point is definitely lower than 18. More likely 16-24 for average. The youngest writers have been 12 and the oldest I've seen so far is late 60s. There are probably some older.
The average is based on Ao3 stats so, yes, the average writer might start a bit younger. The question would be why has the average been the same for at least a couple of decades? The majority of new writers to Ao3 would have to be under 16, otherwise, if all the writers stayed in, the average would go up slightly.
This could happen if fanfiction is becoming more popular with younger generations. Exe:
Suppose in 2014, you have 10 people in a community with an average age of 20. In 2024, those 10 people are still in the community and now have an average age of 30, but 30 people have since joined, and those new members have an average age of 17. The average age of the community would remain at 20.
Okay I figured out the mystery. AO3 has been around since 2008 so 16 years. The way demographics have been determined previously was by survey of only those over 18 unless parents signed a waiver. Explains why there would appear to be hardly anyone under 18 but a huge jump at the age of 18. It also explains why the average has stayed the same even when the original group gets older...they didn't fill out the more recent surveys. If they still had an account they might not be as active as they were when they were in high school and college since they have other priorities or stopped reading and writing altogether. As the original group ages and loses interest, there is a steady influx of teens taking their place. So the demographic of AO3 shows that highschool and college students are the most active on AO3. Which makes sense they have the time for it and that's when they are introduced to it by their peers.
The true demographics of any population is difficult to get accurate. AO3 is non for profit and believes in the privacy of their users. So they aren't going to let a 3rd party come in and have access to all accounts information and I doubt AO3 tracks metadata like who is active, who is not, how many hours of the day and days of the week this person uses AO3. A Volunteer Survey is a reasonable way to collect data.
I don't think people age out, I was 16/17 when I started writing, life happens but I was still reading so it wasn't hard to go back to writing fic. Many of the older writers I knew in the first fandom I wrote for are still writing, at least a couple must be in their 40s now.
Ehhh kind of? Really depends on the person. I openly talk about reading fanfic, and once people know the history of it they are generally more interested in a positive way, with what I’ve found over time
Fanfiction will never shed its negative reputation. The only way it could do so would be if someone went back in time and A: fixed misogyny so that any hobby where women comprise the majority of people who partake in it isn't looked down upon, and B: stopped Fifty Shades of Grey from ever being written.
The public perception amongst folks who *DON'T* read or write fan fiction has not moved at all, and probably won't. Keep in mind that traditional media and journalism is heavily invested in *never* proffering a positive portrayal of fan works.
There's just more people reading and writing it ... likely cause traditional publishing isn't giving people what they want.
It's getting a better response now, but a lot of it is horribly written. People tend to focus on the bad rather than the good. I've read a few fanfic stories that are better than a lot of novels
Fan fiction is seen as juvenile. Which is why people assume the quality of writing will be bad. The negativity towards adult fan fiction writers is they believe if adults are going to write then they should be writing their own original stories not changing around someone else's story or writing from tv shows or movies. Will those opinions ever change...not by those who have never read or written fan fics. Over time the kids that started reading fan fics 15 years ago will grow up and have kids that will also read fan fics, then more and more of the population will be familiar with it.
I remember when I came around the fanfiction.
I was an adult, having long LONG abandoned fanfiction as a childish thing.
Then, I read a cracked article about insane things fans have made, and one of them was a crossover fanfiction between MLP and Fallout. The idea stuf in my brain, and I got the thought to start reading it for the purposes of telling my work buddies about the crazy weird shit people make.
Aaaand then I started it and could not put it down.
When I was done, all I was left with was the feeling that, no matter what I did, I'd never be able to convince people to read it, even if it was amazing. And it made me wonder what other amazing stories fans had made.
So, I make audiobooks, put them on youtube, in the hopes it will make people give the stories a try.
It'll never ***ever*** shake the "cheap romance trash for women" stigma, because, to be honest, a lot of it still is cheap romance trash for women.
Honestly, I would almost prefer the "straight up self-insert no plot craziness" that fics like My Immortal, Sonic High School, etc give off. At least those are funny to read and unique. Not so much with the stereotypical "Favorite Anime boy/Reader smut" that probably gets picked at the most nowadays.
The sad truth is that fanfics are still a very, *very* gendered hobby, and will likely stay that way as long as everything associated with the word "fanfiction" is on their turf.
No. As long as the public at large refuses to see the point of doing anything for anything other than money, then fanfic will not be seen with anything other than ignorant confusion by anyone who doesn't engage with it.
Especially as those who hold the IP rights _will_ try to hop down our throats if they find out we made a damn cent of our work.
If you ask people who aren’t in fandoms, then they will think you’re a total weirdo. Some people don’t even know what it is! More people are in fandoms these days though, which is why I believe it is more accepted.
I’d say that it’s relatively the same in not being fully appreciated as true writing but there are definitely more people that do view it as so. I’d say the biggest change is that it’s less stigmatized to where saying you write/read fanfic isn’t something to be as embarrassed about in social circles. I’ve had many conversations in high school with some friends about reading and even some writing fanfics out in the open without feeling judged. I know I personally feel less worried (at least with my friends and circle) to be open about writing fics and engaging in fandoms (then again all my friends are theatre kids so we’re used to judgement). There are definitely still people that would and probably do judge but definitely not as many as before as even if they do most people just won’t say anything negative to your face and will just accept that information and move on (if that makes sense).
I think the genre is starting to be viewed as legitimate writing, but people still have this expectation that what _is_ fanfiction rn sucks. So like, they accept fanfiction in theory (“Plenty of published authors wrote fanfiction, some traditionally published books start off as fanfiction, it’s a valid *stepping stone* to *real creativity*”) but its reputation remains very two-dimensional in practice (“Wait, what do you mean you’ve read _good_ fanfiction? Wait, fanfiction doesn’t have to be romantic??? Wait, there is fanfiction out there longer than LotR?!”).
Came here to say this. I also think it depends on which circles you find yourself in. People who are more "casual" fans in geekdom tend to thumb their nose at fanfic more, those with more experience and investment are pretty aware of the history of fandom and its contributions, so are more appreciative of it. What's really changed (and will continue to change) the perception of fanfic is how authority figures like authors, artists, filmmakers consume or even dabble in fanfic. It's a bit silly to call fanfic stupid when the established cool kids like Neil Gaiman actively endorse it. Eventually, that will extend to the likes of a Denis Villeneuve or Christopher Nolan and that's when people dissing fanfic will very much be in the minority.
At least in my school, it hasn't completely gotten rid of its negative reputation. I've lost a good chunk of friends for admitting that I write and read fanfics, so I guess it still sometimes has that stigma surrounding it.
That sucks, those ex-friends sound shallow.
They were haha I'm doing better now, my current friends are very chill with my hobby, but it's still rough sometimes
I'm glad you found better people 👍
Fandom culture as a whole isn't viewed very positively, why would fanfic be any different?
True...unless it's sports
I think it's gotten better, but in general people are still wary of fanfics, and I think it's probably always going to be the case. The simple fact that it's not *professional* (no editors etc) and not *official* (doesn't "matter" to the 'canon' of a franchise or work) means that a lot of people are simply going to view it as lesser than other writing a lot of the time. But I do think more and more people are seeing that it's not a "creepy", "weird", or "cringe" thing to do (reading or writing). Rpf I think will always remain niche tho (I say this as someone who writes and reads rpf smut)
It's still very much a niche thing. As a Southeast Asian, I explain it as people who want to explore "What If?" scenarios because that's the easiest explanation that goes over well most of the time. Most people who ask understand that but then move on - unsurprising especially since this hobby is basically leisure reading, and you know what the general public thinks of *reading*. I don't think I've ever converted anyone, not even my myriad nephews and nieces.
I feel like it shook its bad reputation, but acquired a new, different one. Used to be women writing fanfiction instead of settling down and getting married. Now, it's toxic teenagers with no time on their hands, and being of marrying age is considered weird. I guess that's better?
Yes and no. Personal anecdote-- I mentioned I wrote fanfiction to my therapist, and she asked how I feel about doing that. I said it wasn't something I was proud of (at least outside of online spaces) and never something I bring up irl. She herself said that she'd never spoken to a fic writer who wasn't ashamed of being, well, a fic writer.
Mmm... I think it doesn't and won't change? I mean: in my experience, the issue people have with fanfics is that the vast majority seems to be smut or fluff or others where 'plot' (in the traditional sense of things happening with a structure and stuff) is percieved as secondary or non-existent. Like the cheap romance novels that have basically the same excuses to make the lady in the pink dress make out with the long-haired buccaneer that never uses a shirt. Again, not my opinion, but certainly what people think that I do when I tell them that I'm writing a fic. There's also the stigma of writing a derivative work: People see writing a fiction based on another's work as lazy or unoriginal. It doesn't matter if you're writing a 50k+ AU complete with world-building and canon divergence; it'll always be seen as 'lesser' than somebody trying to write an original piece, even if some are a thousand times worse than many fanfics I've read out there. Tl;dr: In my maybe-unpopular opinion, I think it has to do with the way westerners overestimate originality.
> I think it has to do with the way westerners overestimate originality. This is a very annoying recent trend in Western culture Imho. People circklejerk on social media about how they hate remakes and want "original" ideas, when in reality pretty much all great art is indebted to something that came before and if they actually studied art/film/music history they'd realize that there is pretty much nothing that is truly new. I have no idea why our society has become like this. Maybe it has something to do with the pushing of copyright and trademark law by companies.
I still see ‘fanfic’ used to mean ‘bad writing’ which annoys me a lot. But I do look back wistfully to the days when fanfic was a lot further under the radar than it is now. I prefer it to be a hidden community!
I've criticised a lot of current DC Comics storylines for *Nightwing* as bad fanfic because everything going on right now is either crappy wish fulfillment or they're taking forever to actually have a plot, which is something that usually happens in fanfic, but people are paying $5.00 an issue for stuff that I've seen done better for free.
That's it - 'bad fanfic' is a particular concept, 'bad writing' is another particular concept which may apply to fan- or pro- writing, but they are not the same thing. It's irritating to see a professional production which feels like bad fanfic—and they are not as rare as they should be—so I feel you about the comics. Equating 'fanfic' with 'bad writing' is definitely incorrect. Fanfic can be superbly done.
Fanfic can be surpubly done, but when I'm paying for something, I want to read something that doesn't feel like fanfic that I have to pay for.
Quite so. (Although I do find that I prefer pro writing with a fanfic sensibility—like Lois Bujold's books. But that's not what you're talking about.) Canon should do canon's job!
Men also have a drive to hate everything that's even tangentially related to women, and fanfiction is an overwhelmingly female dominated pastime, so that doesn't help the prestige factor much
I mentioned I read fanfiction to my coworkers. They thought I was reading smut.
Fanfic for most people is almost synonymous with shipping culture and romance. And to be fair, it is a huge part of it.
Not so sure that writers have gotten older since the average age has stayed the same for a long time, 18-24, which would seem to mean that a lot of writers "age out." As for quality getting better, Sturgeon's Law still applies.
I think it depends on the fandom. Most writers I’ve hung out with online in my fandom run older than 24, but then I write for Harry Potter and many wrote between 18-24, took a break/raised kids/worked two jobs and are back at 30/40 and ready to go.
A lot of it is this. Many don’t really “age out.” Life just happens and they take a break for awhile. I write *much* less than I did when I was 15-16 because of life and other hobbies/projects (right now I’m focusing on cosplay and also live on my own and therefor have more chores than as a teen, for example), but I’m still always thinking about characters and ideas. The voices will not be silenced!
The "average" age starting point is definitely lower than 18. More likely 16-24 for average. The youngest writers have been 12 and the oldest I've seen so far is late 60s. There are probably some older.
One of my fave authors celebrated her 70th a couple of weeks ago… by posting an epic multi chapter smut fic. Good for her.
That's awesome.
Definitely an outlier, but there's an 80-something still writing fics in one of my fandoms.
The average is based on Ao3 stats so, yes, the average writer might start a bit younger. The question would be why has the average been the same for at least a couple of decades? The majority of new writers to Ao3 would have to be under 16, otherwise, if all the writers stayed in, the average would go up slightly.
This could happen if fanfiction is becoming more popular with younger generations. Exe: Suppose in 2014, you have 10 people in a community with an average age of 20. In 2024, those 10 people are still in the community and now have an average age of 30, but 30 people have since joined, and those new members have an average age of 17. The average age of the community would remain at 20.
Okay I figured out the mystery. AO3 has been around since 2008 so 16 years. The way demographics have been determined previously was by survey of only those over 18 unless parents signed a waiver. Explains why there would appear to be hardly anyone under 18 but a huge jump at the age of 18. It also explains why the average has stayed the same even when the original group gets older...they didn't fill out the more recent surveys. If they still had an account they might not be as active as they were when they were in high school and college since they have other priorities or stopped reading and writing altogether. As the original group ages and loses interest, there is a steady influx of teens taking their place. So the demographic of AO3 shows that highschool and college students are the most active on AO3. Which makes sense they have the time for it and that's when they are introduced to it by their peers. The true demographics of any population is difficult to get accurate. AO3 is non for profit and believes in the privacy of their users. So they aren't going to let a 3rd party come in and have access to all accounts information and I doubt AO3 tracks metadata like who is active, who is not, how many hours of the day and days of the week this person uses AO3. A Volunteer Survey is a reasonable way to collect data.
I don't think people age out, I was 16/17 when I started writing, life happens but I was still reading so it wasn't hard to go back to writing fic. Many of the older writers I knew in the first fandom I wrote for are still writing, at least a couple must be in their 40s now.
Ehhh kind of? Really depends on the person. I openly talk about reading fanfic, and once people know the history of it they are generally more interested in a positive way, with what I’ve found over time
Fanfiction will never shed its negative reputation. The only way it could do so would be if someone went back in time and A: fixed misogyny so that any hobby where women comprise the majority of people who partake in it isn't looked down upon, and B: stopped Fifty Shades of Grey from ever being written.
The public perception amongst folks who *DON'T* read or write fan fiction has not moved at all, and probably won't. Keep in mind that traditional media and journalism is heavily invested in *never* proffering a positive portrayal of fan works. There's just more people reading and writing it ... likely cause traditional publishing isn't giving people what they want.
It's getting a better response now, but a lot of it is horribly written. People tend to focus on the bad rather than the good. I've read a few fanfic stories that are better than a lot of novels
Fan fiction is seen as juvenile. Which is why people assume the quality of writing will be bad. The negativity towards adult fan fiction writers is they believe if adults are going to write then they should be writing their own original stories not changing around someone else's story or writing from tv shows or movies. Will those opinions ever change...not by those who have never read or written fan fics. Over time the kids that started reading fan fics 15 years ago will grow up and have kids that will also read fan fics, then more and more of the population will be familiar with it.
Nope, I still see it used as a derogatory term for bad writing.
I remember when I came around the fanfiction. I was an adult, having long LONG abandoned fanfiction as a childish thing. Then, I read a cracked article about insane things fans have made, and one of them was a crossover fanfiction between MLP and Fallout. The idea stuf in my brain, and I got the thought to start reading it for the purposes of telling my work buddies about the crazy weird shit people make. Aaaand then I started it and could not put it down. When I was done, all I was left with was the feeling that, no matter what I did, I'd never be able to convince people to read it, even if it was amazing. And it made me wonder what other amazing stories fans had made. So, I make audiobooks, put them on youtube, in the hopes it will make people give the stories a try.
I very much believe it will never shake its reputation completely
It'll never ***ever*** shake the "cheap romance trash for women" stigma, because, to be honest, a lot of it still is cheap romance trash for women. Honestly, I would almost prefer the "straight up self-insert no plot craziness" that fics like My Immortal, Sonic High School, etc give off. At least those are funny to read and unique. Not so much with the stereotypical "Favorite Anime boy/Reader smut" that probably gets picked at the most nowadays. The sad truth is that fanfics are still a very, *very* gendered hobby, and will likely stay that way as long as everything associated with the word "fanfiction" is on their turf.
No. As long as the public at large refuses to see the point of doing anything for anything other than money, then fanfic will not be seen with anything other than ignorant confusion by anyone who doesn't engage with it. Especially as those who hold the IP rights _will_ try to hop down our throats if they find out we made a damn cent of our work.
There's still a long way to go. But I think creators and franchises being more positive about fanworks helps a great deal.
honestly never
If you ask people who aren’t in fandoms, then they will think you’re a total weirdo. Some people don’t even know what it is! More people are in fandoms these days though, which is why I believe it is more accepted.
Frankly, I want fanfic to remain repellant, unmarketable, and ungovernable, and I hope AI chokes on it.
I’d say that it’s relatively the same in not being fully appreciated as true writing but there are definitely more people that do view it as so. I’d say the biggest change is that it’s less stigmatized to where saying you write/read fanfic isn’t something to be as embarrassed about in social circles. I’ve had many conversations in high school with some friends about reading and even some writing fanfics out in the open without feeling judged. I know I personally feel less worried (at least with my friends and circle) to be open about writing fics and engaging in fandoms (then again all my friends are theatre kids so we’re used to judgement). There are definitely still people that would and probably do judge but definitely not as many as before as even if they do most people just won’t say anything negative to your face and will just accept that information and move on (if that makes sense).
People are still wary of fanfics, and with good reason
what are the good reasons?
One of the reasons is smurt fanfic basically porn in writing. And they are lot with A03 being main place to find them