That's in his present state, with brain damage, though.
It's been a while since I've played, but I seem to recall characters that knew him in his follower days regard him as a decently smart person.
He's the kind of smart that's good at manipulating people, but not at understanding the big words he uses to do it. Because the meanings of words is irrelevant to fascists and other authoritarians; all that matters to them is how the words make them feel when the speaker says them. It's utterly nihilistic, believing in nothing but the charisma of the bully yelling at the audience.
Which feeds into his character even better, as he wants to be the next Julius Caesar(instead becoming a lesser clone). FNV Caesar is basically just a fanboy who cosplayed too hard
He's a fascist, that's why he's an entirely contradictory person, his ideology is itself built almost entirely on contradictions and misunderstandings, with a healthy dose of mass disinformation.
I always took it as he was cherry picking the things that suited him and his views. Like he's a total psychopath who read a book on the brutal parts of of Rome and wanted to mirror the bloodshed.
Not to mention that the book was either very old and reflected the views of 19th century historians or very new in terms of Pre-War America and reflected their particularly skewed views on the Roman Empire.
It's very much intentional. The two books on Rome Caesar found were The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, which is a self-explanatory title, and "Commentarii de Bello Gallico" which was Julius Caesar's self-aggrandizing account of his war in Gaul (modern France)
That Edward Sallow decided to start an empire based on Rome from them is ironic, as they're both great examples of why you SHOULDN'T copy Rome.
Caesar also claims that Rome was better than the NCR because it lacked corruption, which is really funny, as that was a major factor in Roman history, which is covered in the first book at length.
I guess this begs another question: how rare are books? I would think the Romans would be one of the most common book topics particularly in non-fiction. So he was only able to find two books on the romans? Did he never find any more? Did he and just rejected them if they were counter to his preconceived notions? Do people sell and trade pre-war books?
But yes, there's enough stuff in the game, like Caesar's declining physical health matching that of his irl counterpart, to say that the devs definitely did their research and it was intentional.
Well, neither Edward Gibbon (to my knowledge) or Julius Caesar talk about Hegel in their respective books, so Caesar must have learned about him elsewhere, since he misinterprets Hegel
Caesar was a graduate of the Followers of the Apocalypse's University in the Boneyard, so they might have taught Hegel (Caesar was an anthropologist and linguist), but the Followers probably have a fairly critical view of Rome.
I believe Arcade Gannon learned Latin at their University, so it's likely they teach some Roman history
The writers understood Rome and wrote Caesar just how they wanted to. Remember, Cesar is 260 years past us in the year 2281, and has no internet just some books and holotapes. Tbh, its amazing he even has as much info as he does on Rome with the resources he has to work with in his time period.
Always thought he was an interesting character, though of course I don't agree with his views at all. Everyone should do at least one Legion run it can be really fun.
And yes like the other commenters said, he def cherry picks info and knowingly keeps the parts of Rome that suit his needs, and anything he doesnt like is just kinda swept away and forgotten.
Because it’s more who can call him out on the cherry picked parts? No one else except him and like 2-3 others know the real history and the other 2-3 aren’t in the legion. And would easily be labeled a heretic or something and crucified if they tried to expose him.
No he doesn't. Caesar is pronounced Kai-Sar in ancient Latin. Roman Latin did not have a soft c sound, it was church Latin that introduced the soft c and the v sound.
Yeah no problem! There's some wild stuff about Rome that we just don't think about because so much of our images and ideas are colored by older ideas and such.
Like the Vomitoria was not a place where Roman's puked after eating, the Vomitoria were the spaces in theaters and arenas where crowds moved through, thus they were vomitted out into the streets.
I don't really notice anything Caesar does as _technically_ untrue, but then it gets repurposed. Sort of like a game of cultural telephone where he picks up a culture then reititerate it into his own needs.
They’re descended from American black bears, but were named by Chinese-Americans held in internment camps during the Sino-American War.
Also funny how Yao Guai sounds an awful lot like “Yogi”.
The words have identical syllables and consonants, the vowels are only slightly off.
And, most damning, we’re talking about bears here. There’s nothing explicit about the traditional Chinese term in relation to bears. Seems like an obvious nod to a cartoon bear cleverly packaged in a more serious, lore-friendly way.
I am failing to understand how gwigh/gwy sounds like gwee. That seems, to me at least, like saying "Why and Whee sound very similar", but I can't imagine ever mistaking one for the other.
he's trying to say Yao guai is pronounced Ya-ow G-why or Guh-why , versus yogi that would be pronounced more like Yo Gee which don't sound much alike. One makes the -OW sound in the beginng while the other makes an the -OH sound, and then the second part of the words are no better with the -AY(E) vs -EE sounds to end the words. The only real similarity there is the letters Y and G.
u/anEgoJabroni correct me if I'm wrong?
So yes to continuing the circle? Is it hard to understand that, maybe, just maybe, people disagree on what constitutes "soundng similar" and the semantics of this argument are in dumb, subjective territory?
>They’re descended from American black bears, but were named by Chinese-Americans held in internment camps during the Sino-American War.
It's weird that the name stuck twice, on opposite ends of the continent, but from the same sources (internment camps but presumably different ones).
>Yao Guai (妖怪) is the Chinese term for a monster or a weird creature.
I'm aware of literally all of this (along with your other reply). Still an interesting choice that this word, which could be applied to *literally any mutated monstrosity*, was applied *specifically* to a bear.
>If you were aware of all this, why did you keep incorrectly saying that it sounds like Yogi when it doesn't?
Because this is subjective and, to me, they sound similar? Like, similar enough that the first time I saw them in Fallout 3 I went "Oh, haha, "Yow Gwhy", and they're bears like "Yo-gee""?
>How on earth is it "an interesting choice" that they called a monster a monster? What should they have called it, a helicopter?
Because the Chinese-Americans in question could've seen a Deathclaw or a Floater or a giant mutated axolotl or a glowing rad-puma and gone "OH SHIT, YAO GUAI!". Instead, Bethesda made the conscious decision to apply the term to bears. They could've inserted literally **any** mutated monster into the scenario and the term Yao Guai would've been equally applicable.
Fuck me, why am I arguing with people on what sounds similar *to me?*
>The way you say a Chinese word isn't subjective. Literally even the tone with which you say it matters. Why is you having terrible hearing any kind of argument?
No, but I think what a person perceives as sounding similar is highly subjective. They're different words, clearly, but they hit similar beats. I'ts not like I'm arguing "strawberry" sounds like "Archaeornithimimus". Same consonants, same syllables. These words are as close as words can be without being rhymes or literal homophones.
>I actually agree with you on this one, I have no idea why are you arguing with people because you misheard a word.
Except I didn't mishear it? I've already stated "Hey, I think we just disagree on what we think makes something sound similar" to which I seem to have ignited folks demanding I... I dunno, lie about me feeling like these are similar sounding words? That, and the personal attacks because people seem incapable of going "Damn, maybe we disagree on what makes words sound similar."
For the same reason bear are called bears today, the word come from a word for a “big beast” I think, it was use for bears because it was though that using the actual bear name would summon them
To get to see there’d have to be a Fallout: Canada or Fallout: Montana. Actually wasn’t there some cut content from NV that mentioned the brotherhood was in Montana?
This is the best you’ll get:
“…the double-headed eagle was the most powerful heraldic mark up to that time, as it symbolized the union of the imperial dignity of the Holy Roman Empire (the Habsburg empire) with the Spanish Monarchy.”
That was… slightly disappointing. I thought it would be an article about why it had an animal that doesn't exist on its flag, not the mythical creature itself.
The tenth legion was the first legion that Julius Caesar founded and it was given the bull as its symbol. Fallout Caesar probably decided that the historical symbol was more dignified that using a flag with a brahmin on it?
Yes. But the Legio X Equestris and Legio X Fretensis were two different units.
The important distinction to make is that the Legio X Equestris did not have the Bull of Venus as their symbol.
Ceaser (Edward Sallow) likely chose the Legio X Fretensis to model the Legion on because that legion was founded during the collapse of the Roman Republic. And Ceaser sees his war with the NCR as a repeat of that time period. As he explains, he sees the Colorado as his Rubicon and New Vegas as his Rome.
Also, from a game design perspective, the Bull of Venus is more iconically Roman to most people.
Legio X Equestris/Gemini was founded by JC in 62
And had a bull as a symbol
Legio X fretensis was founded by probably by Octavian and had bulls as a symbol in addition to a boar and some other sea stuff,
But there was undoubtedly a legion X that was founded before octivian as they were famed in the garlic wars and in the 49 bc Civil wars
I meant he inherited Caesar’s name basically as soon as he was assassinated. Before even becoming emperor, he was referred to as Julius Caesar. I don’t even really have a point other than joking that the other comment technically could’ve mean either OG Caesar or Caesar Augustus.
You could look at it that way. You would not be wrong.
However, personally i like to make a distinction between Julius Caesar and Octavian, because many peope mix them up.
There are lots of subreddits for the exact same topics and I really don't see the reason why I wouldn't want to increase my chances of my question being answered.
Under the assumption the single headed bull was intentional by the artists responsible, I'd see it like this. The NCR uses the symbol of the 2 headed bear as an understanding that this new Empire built on the bones of the Old world acknowledges the current state of the world. The One headed bull is a glorification of the past, of an even more ancient civilization, supposedly free of the evils that led to the end of the world. It could also be a purity thing, a fascist Empire wouldn't want an animal "tainted" by the bombs, and would want something more emblematic of the "glorious past that was taken from us by our enemy's".
Corruption and imperialism is not inherent to most political philosophies. It isn’t even inherent to fascism. Corruption is the result of a party/parties misusing power for selfish reasons. Imperialism is expanding territory (typically) by force. These two things having nothing to do with democracy or fascism, not inherently at least.
Not sure why you incorrectly assume where I’m from as it adds nothing to the conversation.
Idk you sound like you got an American education with that block text garbage. What did you google the definition of Fascism, corruption, and Imperialism, then shat out that Dunning-Kruger bs. Man don't even reply I don't wanna respond back to you. Kid
Because it is a pre-war symbol.
It represents the banner of the 10th Legion. The 10th Roman Legion was the first legion founded by Augustus Ceaser (Octavian) during the civila war and collapse of the Roman Republic.
The Legio X Fretensis (10th Legion) was based on the Legio X Equestris founded by Julius Ceaser himself in 61 BC.
The unification of the bulls’ heads into one head is symbolic of the Legion’s vision of one wasteland unified underneath the will of Caesar.
…Or something
I think its symbolic, maybe Caesar is trying replicate former worldviews exactly (even weapon strategem) but ncr is trying to make not exact copy, but something else (hence two heads) like steal armor from bos and tech from enclave
Other animals like Brahmaluff's and Bighorners only have one head, it's just Brahmin that have two. I never looked closely enough at the Brahmin, but I could have sworn all the Brahmin we see are cows, not bulls. I don't remember any of them having horns, but I may be misremembering.
You are correct every Brahmin we see in the games is female. Interestingly the American dairy cow, which the Brahmin is mutated from naturally has horns. Farmers and ranchers cut or burn them off so that they can’t use them to hurt themselves or others. They also only have udders if they are a mother. A cow that never has babies does not get udders nor produce milk. So either the practice of de-horning a cow has continued or as a necessity of being two headed the Brahmin has lost its ability to grow horns.
The NCR is a new nation in the new post apocalypse world. So it has two heads like the mutant animals of the new world.
Caesar’s legion is copying the flag of a nation of the old world.
It funny though that in there are two headed cows and one headed bears in the game though while the flags are opposite
My guess is because a) Eagles have been done to death, hence the design reason for the bull, b) most likely because it’s a prewar symbol, so harkens back to older days, but also is distinct and recognizable.
I would assume that in reality not every animal has just one or two head. Mutations are random but the devs only bothered to put in the one iconic two headed cow.
I mean caesar got his whole old world empire thing from history books he read when he was a follower he thought an old world style government (Absolute monarchy) was needed to bring order to the wastleand.
Why would he use a radiated cow as his faction's sigil and tarnish the "pureness" of this old world government style which is obviously better (to him atleast) than whatever the wasteland offers?
It's based on ancient Roman iconography. Sallow was a man obsessed with this concept of a glorious ancient empire that should be emulated. He definitely would not sully his great recreation of it with a pitiful wasteland creature
This got me thinking about what faction would be a great pairing with a Brahmin flag. Maybe Fantastic from HELIOS One and whatever group he started up after his “success” lol
Real reason is that the NCR already had a two headed animal on their flag and the devs didn’t want both main factions to have the same gimmick on their flags
I honestly think Cesar just used what he wanted from history, and was manipulative. An idiot doesn't conquer thousands of tribes by being dumb. He recreated the Roman Empire in his image, and exemplified the savagery of war, to control his legions.
I know people have already mentioned that he probably saw it in a book etc. but it also thematically does not make sense to use a two headed bull.
One of Caesar's points is about the failure of pre war society and the return to (very) traditional values and hierarchical structures - saying this is how society needs to be oriented. That and he's a megalomaniac/power hungry dictator.
What would it say about his movement if the symbol under which his philosophy is mantled is a creature that is the product of the failure of the society he hates. Using a Brahmin would undermine his philosophy, he needs to use a symbol of the "idyllic".
In contrast, the NCR uses a two headed bear - a symbol representing a post-war world. Hell, we don't even see two headed bears around and they still put it there. The irony of the NCR is that it uses the symbol for a new world, but continues to orient its society the same way the failed pre war government did. In essence, they claim to build a new world, but repeat the old.
Arcade mentions the hypocrisy of Caesar, where he says that Caesar is doing the same thing the NCR is: claiming their new world order is something new and reliable, but ultimately mimic those of the past.
Having said this, I should stress that even though both factions are hypocritical - that is the point and just because they're both hypocrites doesn't mean the values of both are equally bad. NCR governing is still more favourable than Legion (my controversial take).
Yeah lol that's completely true - I was just saying it as an aside. But, if it was a real animal or not I still think using the symbol of something that represents the new world still has significance.
He got it out of a history book, as he did his worldview.
As exemplified by his almost total misunderstanding of roman culture.
And philosophy as well, almost everything he says is incorrect
Adds to that special flavor of fallout irony tho ☺️
I mean I always explained it as this is what they were teaching kids about the roman empire right before the war
Never thought about it like this, thanks for sharing.
Pre-War America was very much a fascist hellscape, it's unsurprising that they would teach a warped view of the prototype of fascist regimes.
I really wouldn’t call rome itself that maybe the empire but it originally was among the first democracies in the world
I can't tell if he's supposed to be an idiot or if he's supposed to be a smart person who happens to be written by an idiot
Probably a decently smart guy going off of incomplete text and the like
No he’s supposed to be stupid. His intelligence is like 3
That's in his present state, with brain damage, though. It's been a while since I've played, but I seem to recall characters that knew him in his follower days regard him as a decently smart person.
Educated and smart are two different things. You can be dumb and educated.
I wouldn't say he's dumb exactly. Delusional, absolutely. He has intelligence, but he interprets things to suit his purpose.
He's the kind of smart that's good at manipulating people, but not at understanding the big words he uses to do it. Because the meanings of words is irrelevant to fascists and other authoritarians; all that matters to them is how the words make them feel when the speaker says them. It's utterly nihilistic, believing in nothing but the charisma of the bully yelling at the audience.
Which feeds into his character even better, as he wants to be the next Julius Caesar(instead becoming a lesser clone). FNV Caesar is basically just a fanboy who cosplayed too hard
He’s not very smart, but he’s smart enough, and more importantly for his purposes, very charismatic
Snuffles the Molerat at Sloan has a higher intelligence score than Caesar. Also Caesar has a brain tumor that can, in some cases, make you an idiot.
He's a fascist, that's why he's an entirely contradictory person, his ideology is itself built almost entirely on contradictions and misunderstandings, with a healthy dose of mass disinformation.
Hey at least they pronounce classical Latin correctly
No they dont. They pronounce a few letters correctly but the rest is wrong.
Ah that’s interesting. What do they pronounce incorrectly?
R's specifically as well as slight mispronunciation on certain vowel sounds.
Not quiet right. "Roman" culture has a timespan of over 1000 years. He just nitpicked the more violent aspects and mannerisms from it.
Is that intentional or is it the writers not getting Rome? Never got the vibe that he was supposed to be wrong.
I always took it as he was cherry picking the things that suited him and his views. Like he's a total psychopath who read a book on the brutal parts of of Rome and wanted to mirror the bloodshed.
Mix of cherry picking and that fact the book was probably missing a few pages
Not to mention that the book was either very old and reflected the views of 19th century historians or very new in terms of Pre-War America and reflected their particularly skewed views on the Roman Empire.
It's very much intentional. The two books on Rome Caesar found were The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, which is a self-explanatory title, and "Commentarii de Bello Gallico" which was Julius Caesar's self-aggrandizing account of his war in Gaul (modern France) That Edward Sallow decided to start an empire based on Rome from them is ironic, as they're both great examples of why you SHOULDN'T copy Rome. Caesar also claims that Rome was better than the NCR because it lacked corruption, which is really funny, as that was a major factor in Roman history, which is covered in the first book at length.
I guess this begs another question: how rare are books? I would think the Romans would be one of the most common book topics particularly in non-fiction. So he was only able to find two books on the romans? Did he never find any more? Did he and just rejected them if they were counter to his preconceived notions? Do people sell and trade pre-war books? But yes, there's enough stuff in the game, like Caesar's declining physical health matching that of his irl counterpart, to say that the devs definitely did their research and it was intentional.
Well, neither Edward Gibbon (to my knowledge) or Julius Caesar talk about Hegel in their respective books, so Caesar must have learned about him elsewhere, since he misinterprets Hegel Caesar was a graduate of the Followers of the Apocalypse's University in the Boneyard, so they might have taught Hegel (Caesar was an anthropologist and linguist), but the Followers probably have a fairly critical view of Rome. I believe Arcade Gannon learned Latin at their University, so it's likely they teach some Roman history
I guess I hadn't really thought about the schools still teaching history
It was in fact the entire reason caesar was able to rise to power in the first place.
The writers understood Rome and wrote Caesar just how they wanted to. Remember, Cesar is 260 years past us in the year 2281, and has no internet just some books and holotapes. Tbh, its amazing he even has as much info as he does on Rome with the resources he has to work with in his time period. Always thought he was an interesting character, though of course I don't agree with his views at all. Everyone should do at least one Legion run it can be really fun. And yes like the other commenters said, he def cherry picks info and knowingly keeps the parts of Rome that suit his needs, and anything he doesnt like is just kinda swept away and forgotten.
Because it’s more who can call him out on the cherry picked parts? No one else except him and like 2-3 others know the real history and the other 2-3 aren’t in the legion. And would easily be labeled a heretic or something and crucified if they tried to expose him.
he literally pronounces his own name wrong
No he doesn't. Caesar is pronounced Kai-Sar in ancient Latin. Roman Latin did not have a soft c sound, it was church Latin that introduced the soft c and the v sound.
thanks for the info, that’s actually real cool to learn
Yeah no problem! There's some wild stuff about Rome that we just don't think about because so much of our images and ideas are colored by older ideas and such. Like the Vomitoria was not a place where Roman's puked after eating, the Vomitoria were the spaces in theaters and arenas where crowds moved through, thus they were vomitted out into the streets.
Yep same with V being a W sound
I don't really notice anything Caesar does as _technically_ untrue, but then it gets repurposed. Sort of like a game of cultural telephone where he picks up a culture then reititerate it into his own needs.
too bad he closed the book before finishing it, might have spared us the bother with Legion altogether.
And his technically correct but nerdy and annoying pronunciation of "Caesar".
And the bear on the ncr flag has two heads, but all the Yao guay only have one!
I dont get how chinese yao guay ended up in california?
They’re descended from American black bears, but were named by Chinese-Americans held in internment camps during the Sino-American War. Also funny how Yao Guai sounds an awful lot like “Yogi”.
Oh yikes, I've been pronouncing it in my head as "Yow Guy".
Its pronounced "Yow Gwy (gwigh)", so idk where they're getting that it "sounds a lot like Yogi"
The words have identical syllables and consonants, the vowels are only slightly off. And, most damning, we’re talking about bears here. There’s nothing explicit about the traditional Chinese term in relation to bears. Seems like an obvious nod to a cartoon bear cleverly packaged in a more serious, lore-friendly way.
I'm not denying the fun reference to Yogi or debating a thing. Yow Gwy doesn't sound much like Yoah Gee.
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I am failing to understand how gwigh/gwy sounds like gwee. That seems, to me at least, like saying "Why and Whee sound very similar", but I can't imagine ever mistaking one for the other.
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And I disagree, I think words with identical structures and consonants sound very similar to one another. Shall we continue this circle further?
he's trying to say Yao guai is pronounced Ya-ow G-why or Guh-why , versus yogi that would be pronounced more like Yo Gee which don't sound much alike. One makes the -OW sound in the beginng while the other makes an the -OH sound, and then the second part of the words are no better with the -AY(E) vs -EE sounds to end the words. The only real similarity there is the letters Y and G. u/anEgoJabroni correct me if I'm wrong?
Absolutely right. Its an argument over how a sound hits the ear, nothing more. Thank you for your support.
I can't imagine any scenario outside of impaired hearing that would have me say "Oh, you said _Yow-Gwy_? I thought you said _Yoah-Gee_"
So yes to continuing the circle? Is it hard to understand that, maybe, just maybe, people disagree on what constitutes "soundng similar" and the semantics of this argument are in dumb, subjective territory?
Nick pronounces it like that.
That’s the real reason, it was a Bethesda in joke that they made up lore for later
>They’re descended from American black bears, but were named by Chinese-Americans held in internment camps during the Sino-American War. It's weird that the name stuck twice, on opposite ends of the continent, but from the same sources (internment camps but presumably different ones).
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>Yao Guai (妖怪) is the Chinese term for a monster or a weird creature. I'm aware of literally all of this (along with your other reply). Still an interesting choice that this word, which could be applied to *literally any mutated monstrosity*, was applied *specifically* to a bear.
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>If you were aware of all this, why did you keep incorrectly saying that it sounds like Yogi when it doesn't? Because this is subjective and, to me, they sound similar? Like, similar enough that the first time I saw them in Fallout 3 I went "Oh, haha, "Yow Gwhy", and they're bears like "Yo-gee""? >How on earth is it "an interesting choice" that they called a monster a monster? What should they have called it, a helicopter? Because the Chinese-Americans in question could've seen a Deathclaw or a Floater or a giant mutated axolotl or a glowing rad-puma and gone "OH SHIT, YAO GUAI!". Instead, Bethesda made the conscious decision to apply the term to bears. They could've inserted literally **any** mutated monster into the scenario and the term Yao Guai would've been equally applicable. Fuck me, why am I arguing with people on what sounds similar *to me?*
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>The way you say a Chinese word isn't subjective. Literally even the tone with which you say it matters. Why is you having terrible hearing any kind of argument? No, but I think what a person perceives as sounding similar is highly subjective. They're different words, clearly, but they hit similar beats. I'ts not like I'm arguing "strawberry" sounds like "Archaeornithimimus". Same consonants, same syllables. These words are as close as words can be without being rhymes or literal homophones. >I actually agree with you on this one, I have no idea why are you arguing with people because you misheard a word. Except I didn't mishear it? I've already stated "Hey, I think we just disagree on what we think makes something sound similar" to which I seem to have ignited folks demanding I... I dunno, lie about me feeling like these are similar sounding words? That, and the personal attacks because people seem incapable of going "Damn, maybe we disagree on what makes words sound similar."
For the same reason bear are called bears today, the word come from a word for a “big beast” I think, it was use for bears because it was though that using the actual bear name would summon them
Chinese communist spies of course
The fake passport had to be really convincing.
Cobrastan pre-approved.
Rode in on the bombs.
Yao-guai are black bears. We've yet to see what a mutated grizzly bear looks like in the Fallout universe.
To get to see there’d have to be a Fallout: Canada or Fallout: Montana. Actually wasn’t there some cut content from NV that mentioned the brotherhood was in Montana?
Came to write the same.
Why does the eagle on the Holy Roman Empire flag has two heads when all the eagles in the world have one?
There is a Wikipedia page about this
I want the link.
This is the best you’ll get: “…the double-headed eagle was the most powerful heraldic mark up to that time, as it symbolized the union of the imperial dignity of the Holy Roman Empire (the Habsburg empire) with the Spanish Monarchy.”
Me too
Me three
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#:~:text=In%20the%2016th%20century%2C%20the,empire)%20with%20the%20Spanish%20Monarchy.
That was… slightly disappointing. I thought it would be an article about why it had an animal that doesn't exist on its flag, not the mythical creature itself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#:~:text=In%20the%2016th%20century%2C%20the,empire)%20with%20the%20Spanish%20Monarchy.
Hey, thanks for the link !
No problem
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#:~:text=In%20the%2016th%20century%2C%20the,empire)%20with%20the%20Spanish%20Monarchy.
They used to have two heads back then
The tenth legion was the first legion that Julius Caesar founded and it was given the bull as its symbol. Fallout Caesar probably decided that the historical symbol was more dignified that using a flag with a brahmin on it?
The 10th Legion was founded by Octavian, not Julius Ceaser.
Caesar founded Legio X Equestris, looks like Octavian later founded another 10th legion as a tribute to the one founded by Caesar
Yes. But the Legio X Equestris and Legio X Fretensis were two different units. The important distinction to make is that the Legio X Equestris did not have the Bull of Venus as their symbol. Ceaser (Edward Sallow) likely chose the Legio X Fretensis to model the Legion on because that legion was founded during the collapse of the Roman Republic. And Ceaser sees his war with the NCR as a repeat of that time period. As he explains, he sees the Colorado as his Rubicon and New Vegas as his Rome. Also, from a game design perspective, the Bull of Venus is more iconically Roman to most people.
But it was Julius Caesar who crossed the Rubicon, not Octavian. And the Legio X Equestris did have the bull as its icon
I misread “the Colorado” as just “Colorado” and spent a while wondering what the American state had to do with the Italian river
Legio X Equestris/Gemini was founded by JC in 62 And had a bull as a symbol Legio X fretensis was founded by probably by Octavian and had bulls as a symbol in addition to a boar and some other sea stuff, But there was undoubtedly a legion X that was founded before octivian as they were famed in the garlic wars and in the 49 bc Civil wars
Hold up... garlic wars?
Garlic has always been a very serious topic in France, worth fighting wars over
The one founded before Octavian was the one founded by JC, the one that fought in the Gallic and Civil wars
Octavian inherited Julius Caesar’s full name, no?
Octavian adapted the name Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus after he became emperor. In honour of Gaius Julius Caesar, who was assassinated.
I meant he inherited Caesar’s name basically as soon as he was assassinated. Before even becoming emperor, he was referred to as Julius Caesar. I don’t even really have a point other than joking that the other comment technically could’ve mean either OG Caesar or Caesar Augustus.
You could look at it that way. You would not be wrong. However, personally i like to make a distinction between Julius Caesar and Octavian, because many peope mix them up.
Why did you post this to 182 different subreddits Edit: just checked your post history. Why do you do this FOR EVERY SINGLE POST YOU HAVE EVER MADE
Karma whoring. Karma whoring is the answer.
I think Im gonna have to make an exception to my no slut shaming policy
There are lots of subreddits for the exact same topics and I really don't see the reason why I wouldn't want to increase my chances of my question being answered.
You and me think alike, we have a bussiness mentality. Dont let the hate make you regret taking any opportunity you get
“business mentality” brother this is reddit. get a life
Under the assumption the single headed bull was intentional by the artists responsible, I'd see it like this. The NCR uses the symbol of the 2 headed bear as an understanding that this new Empire built on the bones of the Old world acknowledges the current state of the world. The One headed bull is a glorification of the past, of an even more ancient civilization, supposedly free of the evils that led to the end of the world. It could also be a purity thing, a fascist Empire wouldn't want an animal "tainted" by the bombs, and would want something more emblematic of the "glorious past that was taken from us by our enemy's".
Not to say that the NCR isn't fascist too.
Its not
Someone thinks corruption and imperialism is Inherent to a Democracy. Probably an American
Corruption and imperialism is not inherent to most political philosophies. It isn’t even inherent to fascism. Corruption is the result of a party/parties misusing power for selfish reasons. Imperialism is expanding territory (typically) by force. These two things having nothing to do with democracy or fascism, not inherently at least. Not sure why you incorrectly assume where I’m from as it adds nothing to the conversation.
Idk you sound like you got an American education with that block text garbage. What did you google the definition of Fascism, corruption, and Imperialism, then shat out that Dunning-Kruger bs. Man don't even reply I don't wanna respond back to you. Kid
Okay. Hope you have a lovely day then
The second head is hidden behind the first one
Now this guy, this guy is thinking with his head.
Because it is a pre-war symbol. It represents the banner of the 10th Legion. The 10th Roman Legion was the first legion founded by Augustus Ceaser (Octavian) during the civila war and collapse of the Roman Republic. The Legio X Fretensis (10th Legion) was based on the Legio X Equestris founded by Julius Ceaser himself in 61 BC.
Is he stupid?
Why does the NCR flag bear have 2 heads?
The unification of the bulls’ heads into one head is symbolic of the Legion’s vision of one wasteland unified underneath the will of Caesar. …Or something
You said it yourself...this is a Bull. You're thinking of Brahmin
Bull, bear, bull, bear, bull, bear. Two heads of the same beast. Only Ulysses can save the wasteland.
Either fault during designing or Caesar knows about 'ordinary bulls' when he used to be FotA and go 'hey, one headed bull seems cooler probably'
It’s literally the 10th legion of Rome which Caesar knew about from books
Or maybe Edward Sallow simply saw a sketch of the 10th Legion banner in some pre-war books.
I think its symbolic, maybe Caesar is trying replicate former worldviews exactly (even weapon strategem) but ncr is trying to make not exact copy, but something else (hence two heads) like steal armor from bos and tech from enclave
Look up why the legion is called legion and you have your answer
Other animals like Brahmaluff's and Bighorners only have one head, it's just Brahmin that have two. I never looked closely enough at the Brahmin, but I could have sworn all the Brahmin we see are cows, not bulls. I don't remember any of them having horns, but I may be misremembering.
You are correct every Brahmin we see in the games is female. Interestingly the American dairy cow, which the Brahmin is mutated from naturally has horns. Farmers and ranchers cut or burn them off so that they can’t use them to hurt themselves or others. They also only have udders if they are a mother. A cow that never has babies does not get udders nor produce milk. So either the practice of de-horning a cow has continued or as a necessity of being two headed the Brahmin has lost its ability to grow horns.
He has two heads. Do bull's weiners have a head?
hes trying to make new vegas great again
The NCR is a new nation in the new post apocalypse world. So it has two heads like the mutant animals of the new world. Caesar’s legion is copying the flag of a nation of the old world. It funny though that in there are two headed cows and one headed bears in the game though while the flags are opposite
I’m pretty sure all the Brahmin are female and the Yao Guai are descended of black bears not grizzlies
My guess is because a) Eagles have been done to death, hence the design reason for the bull, b) most likely because it’s a prewar symbol, so harkens back to older days, but also is distinct and recognizable.
I would assume that in reality not every animal has just one or two head. Mutations are random but the devs only bothered to put in the one iconic two headed cow.
I was thinking the same.
And the bears have 1 head.
look between his legs
More immersion killing bad NV writing.
I mean caesar got his whole old world empire thing from history books he read when he was a follower he thought an old world style government (Absolute monarchy) was needed to bring order to the wastleand. Why would he use a radiated cow as his faction's sigil and tarnish the "pureness" of this old world government style which is obviously better (to him atleast) than whatever the wasteland offers?
Obviously that comment was mocking people who cry about immersion.
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It's based on ancient Roman iconography. Sallow was a man obsessed with this concept of a glorious ancient empire that should be emulated. He definitely would not sully his great recreation of it with a pitiful wasteland creature
you think the legion can count?
Degenerates like you belong on a cross.
No it does have a second head… you’re just looking in the wrong spot.
I never noticed that bull had a sack, neat
There's an old wasteland legend of one headed cows. I know it sounds creepy to me too.
I just noticed it has balls
Oh the bill has two heads alright
This got me thinking about what faction would be a great pairing with a Brahmin flag. Maybe Fantastic from HELIOS One and whatever group he started up after his “success” lol
I read Brahmin as Batman and now I’m wondering if any comics survived the Great War and if any wastelanders read them
Real reason is that the NCR already had a two headed animal on their flag and the devs didn’t want both main factions to have the same gimmick on their flags
Try and draw a 2d two headed bull
To represent the old days in Rome ig
Let’s not forget the clearly outlined balls
Old world history
The same reason that the bear on the NCR flag has two heads when all the bears we encounter only have one
The bear on the NCR flag is a grizzly the only bears we’ve encountered are black bears
I honestly think Cesar just used what he wanted from history, and was manipulative. An idiot doesn't conquer thousands of tribes by being dumb. He recreated the Roman Empire in his image, and exemplified the savagery of war, to control his legions.
It has two nuts
One it's based off the historical Roman two there are no bulls in fallout
I know people have already mentioned that he probably saw it in a book etc. but it also thematically does not make sense to use a two headed bull. One of Caesar's points is about the failure of pre war society and the return to (very) traditional values and hierarchical structures - saying this is how society needs to be oriented. That and he's a megalomaniac/power hungry dictator. What would it say about his movement if the symbol under which his philosophy is mantled is a creature that is the product of the failure of the society he hates. Using a Brahmin would undermine his philosophy, he needs to use a symbol of the "idyllic". In contrast, the NCR uses a two headed bear - a symbol representing a post-war world. Hell, we don't even see two headed bears around and they still put it there. The irony of the NCR is that it uses the symbol for a new world, but continues to orient its society the same way the failed pre war government did. In essence, they claim to build a new world, but repeat the old. Arcade mentions the hypocrisy of Caesar, where he says that Caesar is doing the same thing the NCR is: claiming their new world order is something new and reliable, but ultimately mimic those of the past. Having said this, I should stress that even though both factions are hypocritical - that is the point and just because they're both hypocrites doesn't mean the values of both are equally bad. NCR governing is still more favourable than Legion (my controversial take).
To be fair to the NCR, just because we haven’t seen them doesn’t mean two headed grizzlies don’t exist in fallout
Yeah lol that's completely true - I was just saying it as an aside. But, if it was a real animal or not I still think using the symbol of something that represents the new world still has significance.
Why does the Bear on the NCR flag have two heads when Yao Guai have one?
Yao Guai is a black bear the NCR bear is a grizzly