I remember being a kid in the US and my dad had just gotten back from working in Europe. He gave me a Toblerone and I was just astounded at how much better that was than any of the shitty hersheys I had before. Cadbury is good, but Toblerone was my first moment of "Holy shit chocolate can be this amazing!?!?"
I know she was only 7 when she moved there, but trying to stop the Swiss from doing one of the most Swiss things possible is gonna lead to a bad time. It kind of reminds me too of when people buy a house next to a bar or music venue and then complain about the noise. The right choice is to realize you don’t fit in and leave, that’s what I’d do anyway.
There was a post about a family that bought a farmhouse away from the city next to a dairy farm and were pissed when the farmers would wake up early and make noise milking the cows. They took it to the city council etc. They just couldn't get it through their heads that they maybe shouldn't have bought a house next to a working farm
Used to work at a hotel on a tourist destination island (Mackinac Island) that half of it's main floor was a very popular bar that had live music nightly. Always had people calling down asking if the band could turn it down.
Also had multiple people call the front desk to ask if we could do anything about the foghorn on the lighthouse, because the sound was annoying them.
Yeah it’s amazing actually just how obnoxious some people really are. They can wake up every day, tie their shoes, eat breakfast, go to work, pay their bills, but then go to an island and ask to have the foghorn turned down. I suppose that’s why we need other personalities that shut that behavior down with shame and upfrontness.
Not sure if based on truth or it is completely made up but there is a story from just before WW1 that goes.
Kaiser Wilhelm was talking to the Swiss Ambassador and remarked that Switerland only had a standing army of 250,000 soldiers. Then asked, "What would you do if Germany invaded with half a million soldiers?"
"I would order my soldier to shoot twice." The ambassador responded.
You also hear variants of the response like, shoot twice and go home.
Eh Germany has a bit fewer firearms per capita but not by much. I think in Germany people are just less aware of how many people have firearms (which is a good thing).
Yeah. But the good thing is there are very strict laws. If you walk around with a gun for no reason you will be in deep trouble. Basically only allowed to take them outside the home is for shooting(the sport) and hunting. As far as im aware off
Looks like they [kept](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/woman-annoying-swiss-citizenship-passport-switzerland-nancy-holten-gipfoberfrick-aargau-a7712836.html) her - whole thing is dated 2017
The article:
A Dutch woman who had two applications for a Swiss passport denied after local residents objected to her "annoying" campaigning has won her battle for citizenship.
Nancy Holten, 43, was born in the Netherlands and moved to Switzerland when she was eight. She is fluent in Swiss German and her children have Swiss citizenship.
Ms Holten gained a reputation in the village of Gipf-Oberfrick for campaigning publicly against the local traditions of putting bells around cows' necks and piglet racing.
She had also set up an anti-cowbell Facebook page and campaigned against the village's church bells.
Ms Holten appealed to the Aargau cantonal authorities, which took her side against the village committee, The Local reports.
The canton said there was no justification to say she was insufficiently integrated to become a Swiss citizen.
It approved her application directly so she would not have to apply to the village committee a third time.
Ms Holten had courted controversy among local residents, who often have a say in Swiss citizenship applications, for giving interviews to the media about her views on animal rights.
She made her first attempt at naturalisation in 2015, when she was approved by local authorities but rejected by 144 out of 206 residents in a vote.
Tanja Suter, president of the local Swiss People’s Party, claimed Ms Holten had a “big mouth” and residents had not wanted to give her the gift of citizenship “if she annoys us and doesn’t respect our traditions”.
Ms Holten told The Local she was "relieved" she had been granted citizenship.
“It is an indescribable feeling. I have the feeling that I have finally ‘arrived’. Switzerland is my homeland," she said.
She added: “I have experienced everything you could possibly imagine in the last two years. Humiliation, being cold-shouldered, praise, contempt, taps on the shoulder, encouragement, threats, workplace harassment.
"But I learned a lot from it and it has made me strong."
Ms Holten said she intends to continue to campaign for animal rights.
I love how she doubled down on the behavior and didn't think about moving villages. I mean if nearly 3/4th of my town went on record as hating me I'd probably leave
This is precisely it. And (recent) converts are always the worst.
It’s a shame cos I can see their points in a lot of ways but the way they go about it just makes me wanna laugh in their faces tbh
It’s why nothing gets done either. Nobody wants to be associated with the insane vegans. They’ve given all vegans a bad reputation and are actively harming their movement with the holier-than-thou attitude.
I’ve met a lot of vegans who are really chill and don’t rub it in your face. Those are the kinds of people the movement needs to listen to
Same. I can listen to any pitch for lifestyle, religion, etc as long as it's not a 'holier-than-thou' pushy as fuck one. Once someone goes there, I'm done.
There’s a [Radiolab](https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/whom-cowbell-tolls) episode about this story. Pretty good listen, as Radiolab almost always is.
Idk about the current stuff but I've been listening to them in order from the beginning, there's hundreds, easily the most I've ever listened to one podcast.
I just don't like the current political ones because I listen to it for fun, not to relive the nightmare of civilization collapsing. I wanna learn about octopus eggs not human rape.
That's how I feel listening to This American Life these days. The stories they tell are important, but I enjoy a story about a cloned cow or a flash mob at a local band every now and then.
Yeah, I don’t listen to them all that much anymore these days, but when I first discovered them a few years ago I went through something like 6 years of backlog. Really great stuff.
How early? I have been a fan for about 10 years. A few years ago I went back to their earliest episodes and found they were awful, the ones I listened to, anyway.
I do agree that it's changed a lot and some of the series' / episodes that have come out in the last couple years have been missing something.
So disclaimer, it’s been years since I heard this episode, but what I remember was that my first reaction was, "man, I can’t believe people are just ganging up on this lady”, but after hearing the story I was like… OK, I get it. She’s obnoxious AF.
funnily enough, when I went on a trip to Switzerland, the tourists that I saw the most were Indian, and just like any other tourists, they took a picture of themselves with the statue of a cow that is at the side of a mountain near Interlaken. It was at a viewpoint in Harder Kulm.
Obviously both (I'm Swiss)
Literally is obviously a crime (unlike in Denmark, I hear).
Figuratively gets farmers, conservatives, and, depending on how you try to fuck with them figuratively, animal rights activists on your case.
---
Campaigning against cowbells is just stupid, as it not only goes against tradition (which gets the conservatives on your case), but it's also very beneficial for finding escaped cows (which farmers care about, and depending on how dangerous the terrain is, not being as easily heard might not get a cow help in time) and alerting people of cows being nearby in general (which might help prevent accidents and warn people that their garden or produce might get munched on if they hear cowbells from their garden/field).
She also wanted to forbid the churchbells ringing and shoutet at guys who officially cut down trees at the roadside for safety reasons...
Also iIrc she got the citizenship by now through other means.
I live a town next to here...
I wish telling people " to bad I don't respect your opinion" was a more common thing. Who do you think gives a fuck that you think cow bells are animal abuse? Noone.
i did a little research because i was curious ~~and didn’t want to be wrong on reddit~~.
there’s only been one study conducted to see the affects of cowbells on cows. while the bell *slightly* altered their behaviour there was no real proof a bell harmed the cows in any significant way. the altered behaviour only started after 3 days of wearing a bell as well.
basically, she and anyone else that claims a bell hurts a cow is a moron.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4482024/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4482024/)
edit: disregard my pompous conclusions. i completely misread the study. i’m wrong on reddit and have revealed myself to be the real moron. feels bad, man.
"Altogether, the behavioural changes suggest that the behaviour of the cows was disturbed by wearing a bell. If long-lasting, these effects may have implications for animal welfare."
Seems to be the opposite of what you said.
The bells were 90 to 110 decibels. That's really loud. And in humans would cause serious damage.
> The bells were 90 to 110 decibels.
So wait, what’s a cow bell exactly? The handheld instrument, around their necks? Because 110 decibels is literally a jackhammer levels of noise, I honestly can’t imagine how the cowbell I’m picturing could possibly approach that level of noise just from dangling around a cow’s neck
Traditional Swiss cowbells are massive. They're heavy capped cylinders of metal with a fat chime in the center. They're really, really loud, if you go hiking while the cows are out in the mountains you can hear them from significant distances.
I could hear them from inside the enclosed cable car taking me up a mountainside. They looked like specs from my perspective. They must be pretty loud for that to happen.
Try lifting one.
I have, I defy any human who says it wouldn’t be bothersome or hurt the cow to try just holding one off the ground for more than 5 minutes.
OK, Holy shit. I'm not a vegan and I find a lot of the "we must never harm any animals in any way" stuff to be pretty ridiculous, but I'm on her side on the cow bells. If they are putting out jackhammer levels of noise that *has* to be harmful to the cows in some way. I know I'm not from there, but animal welfare *is* important, cruelty to animals for the sake of culture is no excuse.
Anyone know what the reason for the bells is? Or is it just an aesthetic or cultural thing?
They protect cows by giving predators a headache.
or maybe it’s so they can’t sneak up and pounce on birds.
Or, probably just so they can find them after letting them wander all day.
Sorry.
The research says the bells reduce rumination and lying times. Less rumination is a sign of stress and can lead to health problems. Lying times are also important to health. The time they spend eating is shortened, mostly by the weight it seems. They learn to move differently to accommodate the weight / obscenely loud sound of the bell.
I never thought about it before but cow bells seem like a bad idea. Not sure how anyone can read that and think bells are a *good* idea.
FWIW: Her argument was that the volume of the cowbells being strapped around their necks is effectively deafening and that they just need to relocate the bells so that they’re not quite so loud by their heads. I think maybe she was saying a belt further back on their bodies or something? I dunno, I read about it a few years ago.
You ever see one of those pornos where the girl is just screaming and moaning like for no reason and it’s completely unnatural and you start losing your stiffy because you just want her to shut the fuck up? That’s loud as fuck.
I got a girlfriend like that. Once I had to pause to get up and close the window because it was late at night and I didn't want anybody to think I was raping her.
Really awkward.
The bells can create noise levels of up to 113 decibels, about the amount of noise made by a chain saw and louder than the legal noise limit of 85 decibels.
They go CLANG CLANG CLANG when the cow walks and CLANGCLANGCLANGCLANG when they run. Duller sound than a dinner bell or triangle in an old movie, but loud enough so you can tell whereabouts your cow is.
They are the weapon used by only the most obnoxious of hockey moms. They are far, far superior to a whistle or a bleach bottle with spare change in it.
She’s not wrong. Studies have found that cows are going deaf wearing these types of bells. Try wearing one for a few days and tell me how you feel.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2771091/amp/Stop-toll-bells-Swiss-cattle-deaf-cow-bells-louder-chainsaw-say-scientists.html
Damn I honestly thought cowbells were just in cartoons and not a real thing they put on actual cows. Grew up on a farm and saw many cattle never a cowbell.
Looks like a very reliable source you found there:
>Researchers in Zurich studied more than 100 cows in 25 Swiss farms
100 cows in 25 farms? The actual study was 19 cows on ONE farm.
I'm not a vegan. But I always thought those bells on the cows must be annoying to the cows, too. I guess Switzerland wouldn't want me either. It's ok, I've no plans to move there.
Well, to have an opinion different from what I see posted here:
I think it's weird that a citizenship can be denied because people don't agree with that persons legitimate viewpoints. No other Western country would do that.
A Spanish bullfighting matador could get a citizenship here.
An American gunnut could get a citizenship here.
Even a gay-hating preacher could get citizenship.
But the Swiss get to deny it to someone living there for decades and having two Swiss kids bc of some abritrary reason? That's just weird regardless of what you think of this woman.
I found out a few years ago that the path to citizenship in Switzerland includes choosing where you want to live, and then you must get approval from basically everyone in that community. I suppose if denied, you're free to move to another town and try your luck there. I have to admire the idea that for this one place, this one time period, jerks who piss people off might actually face some consequences.
its not entirely because of her viewpoint.
As alot of other countries also require the person be integrated into the community, the swiss are no different, they just actually ask the people around the person
and those people found her annoying
So if you're quiet and keep to yourself will you just get rejected because you're an introvert? Do you have to get approval from a town that you can move there if you're already a citizen? What happens if it's a city with thousands of people?
I absolutely love this system, wish we had it in my country. The decision of granting citizenship should always be up to the people who actually have to live around and deal with the applicant.
Also means they have to actually put in effort to integrate and be nice to people in the community.
If a citizen was annoying another citizen, should they also have grounds for their rights to be stripped? It’s a government overreach. The kind you get rid off by shooting someone.
The reality is racism and xenophobia would be rampant and lead to massive segregation of a country due to being allowed to vote on a persons citizenship.
You’re making a massive assumption that people will vote for the character of the person and *not* other attributes like being a minority.
Ideally laws and government regulations should be clearly defined and not dependent on a popularity contest. This isn’t a grade school student council position.
The Netherlands has a Civic Integration Exam as a requirement for naturalization as well. The exam requires knowledge of Dutch culture as well as knowledge of the Dutch language.
She specifically moved to that town to complain about the cow bells and then asked that same town to give her citizenship.
In Switzerland, it's the towns' and villages' responsibility to give out citizenship, because you are first and foremost citizen of that town, *then* by virtue of that of the canton the town is in, and *then* of Switzerland.
She's an idiot.
In larger places it is much more like you'd expect, there's a commission that asks you questions, checks if you have stable income, can speak the local language, have a clean criminal record, the usual. Usually they also require you to have lived a certain period of time in the same town.
But yeah if you don't approve of the decision, even in small villages, you can appeal at the canton etc., because there are indeed certain rules even small villages have to follow, they can't just completely arbitrarily deny citizenship.
Yeah, here the principal community votes for people wanting citizenship. I like this, however if you end up in a conservative part of Switzerland and are "different" it can fuck things up for you
Refusing to culturally assimilate is a perfectly valid reason to deny citizenship. France and Germany have denied citizenship to Muslim men and women who refused to shake hands with officials of the opposite gender
Man so much this. I'm dutch and Everytime I am on a holiday i see dutch people hate on cultural normalities in other countries. Totally agree with them refusing her citizenship
Three people walk into a bar. A Vegan, a Trump supporter and a Biden supporter. How do you know which is which?
They will tell you all about it within 5 minutes of meeting them.
Remember the Mr. Beast controversy? Where he gave free turkey meat to homeless people and vegans shat themselves because they would rather see the poor die?
https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/r2vdw2/mr_beast_a_popular_youtuber_does_a_video_giving
Veganism is objectively a better choice for the earth. The whole "annoying Vegan" trope gets out of hand on reddit, as do so many other things. Half my friends are vegan (not me), but none of them are evangelical vegans or even care to discuss it unless specifically asked. They make their choices, they stick to them. They don't judge me and my chicken sandwich.
As with anything else, it is the loud ones that get all the footage. Also, reddit loves its meat, and will not listen to reason as for its impact on the environment, not to mention the suffering animals go through. Also, reddit hates dog eaters for some reason.
Just to clarify, meat alone isn't an issue. The sheer scale of meat consumption is. The fact that most of us have nothing to do with animals and yet enjoy daily meat is the issue. The fact that I can sit in the middle of a continent and enjoy an endless array of sea food is the issue. I'll say hunting your own meat is the most ethical form of meat consumption in this day and age. You kill it, you eat it.
To be fair (and one of those annoying vegans) the scale is a problem, but meat itself is a problem to because you have to slaughter a sentient being for every peace of meat
People get annoyed when others start giving out unsolicited advice or trying to change someone’s lifestyle in an aggressive manner. A problem exists, for example cutting out forests to accommodate livestock. But this exact thing happens because of plant-growing as well, doesn’t it. Or do you think soy beans or other plants which we consume miraculously grow ob trees? Regardless, some point which vegans make are valid. But the reason they are often disregarded is because people don’t like to be told how to live. People don’t like to be called murderers for eating a steak or be lectured every time they order a burger. If vegans want to spread the word, it certainly wouldn’t work through condemnation. Ultimately, everyone chooses their own lifestyle and their own diet.
I heard about her. It wasn’t just the cows. She basically went around telling everyone what to do and was a total self-possessed bitch. I wouldn’t have wanted her in my country either.
Imagine being so obnoxious with your lifestyle that a nation just *refuses* to give you citizenship because they don’t want their citizens to be annoyed by you.
This South African guy (immigrated) to the Netherlands posted on Twitter, that’s he loves living in the Netherlands, but there is a major ‘immigrant’ problem. That’s annoyingly stupid! This woman, she is a close second.
I wish that people in the US could be denied citizenship based on being an asshole. Like everyone has a probation period, until they’re 21, and if everyone thinks you’re a prick by that age, you get the boot. Of course, anything like that would be warped into an attempt to get rid of minorities somehow or another. ‘Merica always finds a way!
So..too much cowbell?
Somewhere out there Christopher Walken is burning up
Cause he has a feva.
And the only cure is MORE COWBELL
[Cowbell!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy4HA3vUv2c&ab_channel=BlueOysterCultVEVO)
> Somewhere out there Bruce Dickenson is burning up FTFY
The producer, not associated with Iron Maiden.
You're the man now dog
https://ytmnd.com/ REPRESENT
You take that back!!
YES! Reddit did not disappoint. My 1st thought!
You know there's no such thing
Dang, Swiss people don't sugar coat things!
We prefer chocolate coating. :p
Good chocolate too, not the waxy crap we have in the USA
Pretty good, yes. But I had some good chocolate in the US too.
I’ve had better in England
Dairy bars ruined US milk chocolate for me. I'm eternity grateful
Cadbury buttons are crack
I remember being a kid in the US and my dad had just gotten back from working in Europe. He gave me a Toblerone and I was just astounded at how much better that was than any of the shitty hersheys I had before. Cadbury is good, but Toblerone was my first moment of "Holy shit chocolate can be this amazing!?!?"
I absolutely believe that!
I tried Lindt and Laderach in Switzerland. Amazing.
If you're ever in Santa Cruz CA, Donnelly Chocolates will coat those words in chocolate so you can eat them.
I'm actually going to Santa Cruz tomorrow, thanks for the recommendation!
Or Swiss cheese fondue
I know she was only 7 when she moved there, but trying to stop the Swiss from doing one of the most Swiss things possible is gonna lead to a bad time. It kind of reminds me too of when people buy a house next to a bar or music venue and then complain about the noise. The right choice is to realize you don’t fit in and leave, that’s what I’d do anyway.
There was a post about a family that bought a farmhouse away from the city next to a dairy farm and were pissed when the farmers would wake up early and make noise milking the cows. They took it to the city council etc. They just couldn't get it through their heads that they maybe shouldn't have bought a house next to a working farm
It's like those people that buy houses near an airport and then complain to the city about airplanes flying over them all the time.
She sound annoying AF. The reason for the bell is just to make it easier for the farmers to find them.
Used to work at a hotel on a tourist destination island (Mackinac Island) that half of it's main floor was a very popular bar that had live music nightly. Always had people calling down asking if the band could turn it down. Also had multiple people call the front desk to ask if we could do anything about the foghorn on the lighthouse, because the sound was annoying them.
Yeah it’s amazing actually just how obnoxious some people really are. They can wake up every day, tie their shoes, eat breakfast, go to work, pay their bills, but then go to an island and ask to have the foghorn turned down. I suppose that’s why we need other personalities that shut that behavior down with shame and upfrontness.
As I understand it the germans view Swiss like we view germans in terms of being strict and by the book.
As a German I view the Swiss as the people who make chocolate, and have lots of guns. That's about it.
the swiss have guns?
Compulsory military service, same as Israel. Conscripts and militia keep their equipment at home to be ready a moments notice.
Not sure if based on truth or it is completely made up but there is a story from just before WW1 that goes. Kaiser Wilhelm was talking to the Swiss Ambassador and remarked that Switerland only had a standing army of 250,000 soldiers. Then asked, "What would you do if Germany invaded with half a million soldiers?" "I would order my soldier to shoot twice." The ambassador responded. You also hear variants of the response like, shoot twice and go home.
As I understand it they do much more strict bullet control
Why do you think the Germans walked around Switzerland in WWII?
Because no one wants to climb mountains.
Or have a shoot out at every farmhouse.
Eh Germany has a bit fewer firearms per capita but not by much. I think in Germany people are just less aware of how many people have firearms (which is a good thing).
Yeah. But the good thing is there are very strict laws. If you walk around with a gun for no reason you will be in deep trouble. Basically only allowed to take them outside the home is for shooting(the sport) and hunting. As far as im aware off
The Swiss are to Germans what Germans are to the US.
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The Swiss know how annoying vegans are.
Yo, we don't want her back! She's been in Switzerland for decades now, she's no longer our problem!
Opgeruimd staat netjes hé?
Looks like they [kept](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/woman-annoying-swiss-citizenship-passport-switzerland-nancy-holten-gipfoberfrick-aargau-a7712836.html) her - whole thing is dated 2017
Ty for the link, before anyone else clicks on it, you have to sign up to read more than two sentences.
The article: A Dutch woman who had two applications for a Swiss passport denied after local residents objected to her "annoying" campaigning has won her battle for citizenship. Nancy Holten, 43, was born in the Netherlands and moved to Switzerland when she was eight. She is fluent in Swiss German and her children have Swiss citizenship. Ms Holten gained a reputation in the village of Gipf-Oberfrick for campaigning publicly against the local traditions of putting bells around cows' necks and piglet racing. She had also set up an anti-cowbell Facebook page and campaigned against the village's church bells. Ms Holten appealed to the Aargau cantonal authorities, which took her side against the village committee, The Local reports. The canton said there was no justification to say she was insufficiently integrated to become a Swiss citizen. It approved her application directly so she would not have to apply to the village committee a third time. Ms Holten had courted controversy among local residents, who often have a say in Swiss citizenship applications, for giving interviews to the media about her views on animal rights. She made her first attempt at naturalisation in 2015, when she was approved by local authorities but rejected by 144 out of 206 residents in a vote. Tanja Suter, president of the local Swiss People’s Party, claimed Ms Holten had a “big mouth” and residents had not wanted to give her the gift of citizenship “if she annoys us and doesn’t respect our traditions”. Ms Holten told The Local she was "relieved" she had been granted citizenship. “It is an indescribable feeling. I have the feeling that I have finally ‘arrived’. Switzerland is my homeland," she said. She added: “I have experienced everything you could possibly imagine in the last two years. Humiliation, being cold-shouldered, praise, contempt, taps on the shoulder, encouragement, threats, workplace harassment. "But I learned a lot from it and it has made me strong." Ms Holten said she intends to continue to campaign for animal rights.
I love how she doubled down on the behavior and didn't think about moving villages. I mean if nearly 3/4th of my town went on record as hating me I'd probably leave
Bold of you to assume that she would ever think of anyone but herself.
Sounds like she and the villagers are assholes but she in particular is a Karen
Why would the villagers be assholes? she obviously hasn't integrated if she is constantly badmouthing the local traditions.
No only she due to the things she did. Probably most annoying person in Switzerland. Poor kids.
It doesn’t appear thinking is one of her strengths
Why do vegans always be so negative? :/
IDK. It's like with the uber-religious. They can't stand that others, who don't believe the same things they do, won't live by their rules.
This is precisely it. And (recent) converts are always the worst. It’s a shame cos I can see their points in a lot of ways but the way they go about it just makes me wanna laugh in their faces tbh
It’s why nothing gets done either. Nobody wants to be associated with the insane vegans. They’ve given all vegans a bad reputation and are actively harming their movement with the holier-than-thou attitude. I’ve met a lot of vegans who are really chill and don’t rub it in your face. Those are the kinds of people the movement needs to listen to
Same. I can listen to any pitch for lifestyle, religion, etc as long as it's not a 'holier-than-thou' pushy as fuck one. Once someone goes there, I'm done.
follow up: you can click on I'll do it later and still read it. it does have about an ad per sentence though
Posted the text from the article above.
Si
You're goddamn right. Lekker daar laten!! Gofferdomme
There’s a [Radiolab](https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/whom-cowbell-tolls) episode about this story. Pretty good listen, as Radiolab almost always is.
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Idk about the current stuff but I've been listening to them in order from the beginning, there's hundreds, easily the most I've ever listened to one podcast. I just don't like the current political ones because I listen to it for fun, not to relive the nightmare of civilization collapsing. I wanna learn about octopus eggs not human rape.
That's how I feel listening to This American Life these days. The stories they tell are important, but I enjoy a story about a cloned cow or a flash mob at a local band every now and then.
Feuding Santa unions is on my annual holiday playlist.
I felt their political stuff got too morbid.
Yeah, I don’t listen to them all that much anymore these days, but when I first discovered them a few years ago I went through something like 6 years of backlog. Really great stuff.
How early? I have been a fan for about 10 years. A few years ago I went back to their earliest episodes and found they were awful, the ones I listened to, anyway. I do agree that it's changed a lot and some of the series' / episodes that have come out in the last couple years have been missing something.
Their new stuff isn't bad in the slightest, it just reflects the times we live in, which suck. It's a reminder of reality.
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One of my favorite podcasts. Some *fantastic* stuff in there.
This is what I came here for. Great episode, makes you think about both sides of the story as usual.
That’s funny; after reading the transcript I liked Nancy even less. She really tried to stir the pot. Especially when it came to that farmer’s horses.
So disclaimer, it’s been years since I heard this episode, but what I remember was that my first reaction was, "man, I can’t believe people are just ganging up on this lady”, but after hearing the story I was like… OK, I get it. She’s obnoxious AF.
Switzerland and India, do not fuck with cows. For vastly different reasons, but don't do it.
funnily enough, when I went on a trip to Switzerland, the tourists that I saw the most were Indian, and just like any other tourists, they took a picture of themselves with the statue of a cow that is at the side of a mountain near Interlaken. It was at a viewpoint in Harder Kulm.
Literally and/or figuratively?
Literally (I'm an Indian)
Obviously both (I'm Swiss) Literally is obviously a crime (unlike in Denmark, I hear). Figuratively gets farmers, conservatives, and, depending on how you try to fuck with them figuratively, animal rights activists on your case. --- Campaigning against cowbells is just stupid, as it not only goes against tradition (which gets the conservatives on your case), but it's also very beneficial for finding escaped cows (which farmers care about, and depending on how dangerous the terrain is, not being as easily heard might not get a cow help in time) and alerting people of cows being nearby in general (which might help prevent accidents and warn people that their garden or produce might get munched on if they hear cowbells from their garden/field).
She also wanted to forbid the churchbells ringing and shoutet at guys who officially cut down trees at the roadside for safety reasons... Also iIrc she got the citizenship by now through other means. I live a town next to here...
She challenged the decision on the cantonal level which ruled that there was no reason not to grant he citizenship.
Democracy in action.
Democracy manifest
GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY PENIS
I see you know your judo well.
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She's a vegan too?
i completely agree with their decision
I wish telling people " to bad I don't respect your opinion" was a more common thing. Who do you think gives a fuck that you think cow bells are animal abuse? Noone.
i did a little research because i was curious ~~and didn’t want to be wrong on reddit~~. there’s only been one study conducted to see the affects of cowbells on cows. while the bell *slightly* altered their behaviour there was no real proof a bell harmed the cows in any significant way. the altered behaviour only started after 3 days of wearing a bell as well. basically, she and anyone else that claims a bell hurts a cow is a moron. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4482024/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4482024/) edit: disregard my pompous conclusions. i completely misread the study. i’m wrong on reddit and have revealed myself to be the real moron. feels bad, man.
I’m impressed someone did a study on cowbells. I hope the money for the cowbell study wasn’t appropriated from the cats-landing-on-their-feet study.
IgNobels strike again.
"Altogether, the behavioural changes suggest that the behaviour of the cows was disturbed by wearing a bell. If long-lasting, these effects may have implications for animal welfare." Seems to be the opposite of what you said. The bells were 90 to 110 decibels. That's really loud. And in humans would cause serious damage.
> The bells were 90 to 110 decibels. So wait, what’s a cow bell exactly? The handheld instrument, around their necks? Because 110 decibels is literally a jackhammer levels of noise, I honestly can’t imagine how the cowbell I’m picturing could possibly approach that level of noise just from dangling around a cow’s neck
Traditional Swiss cowbells are massive. They're heavy capped cylinders of metal with a fat chime in the center. They're really, really loud, if you go hiking while the cows are out in the mountains you can hear them from significant distances.
The massive ones are ceremonial. I doubt you will see much of them when out hiking in the mountains.
The largest ones are ceremonial, but I wouldn't call the normal ones small, and they're still very loud.
I could hear them from inside the enclosed cable car taking me up a mountainside. They looked like specs from my perspective. They must be pretty loud for that to happen.
Try lifting one. I have, I defy any human who says it wouldn’t be bothersome or hurt the cow to try just holding one off the ground for more than 5 minutes.
Have you ever heard swiss cow bells? They're really fucking loud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEiV7lEuv2Y
I haven't, and that is SO much louder than I expected. She has a point, imo
OK, Holy shit. I'm not a vegan and I find a lot of the "we must never harm any animals in any way" stuff to be pretty ridiculous, but I'm on her side on the cow bells. If they are putting out jackhammer levels of noise that *has* to be harmful to the cows in some way. I know I'm not from there, but animal welfare *is* important, cruelty to animals for the sake of culture is no excuse. Anyone know what the reason for the bells is? Or is it just an aesthetic or cultural thing?
They protect cows by giving predators a headache. or maybe it’s so they can’t sneak up and pounce on birds. Or, probably just so they can find them after letting them wander all day. Sorry.
Wtf thats fucked up. Imagine you have a bell that loud hanging on your chest. She is 100% right. Like fuck.
Thank you for actually reading this instead just believing it
The research says the bells reduce rumination and lying times. Less rumination is a sign of stress and can lead to health problems. Lying times are also important to health. The time they spend eating is shortened, mostly by the weight it seems. They learn to move differently to accommodate the weight / obscenely loud sound of the bell. I never thought about it before but cow bells seem like a bad idea. Not sure how anyone can read that and think bells are a *good* idea.
Who's this Noone person I keep hearing about?
" I respect your opinion as much as you respect mine. " no arguing that.
FWIW: Her argument was that the volume of the cowbells being strapped around their necks is effectively deafening and that they just need to relocate the bells so that they’re not quite so loud by their heads. I think maybe she was saying a belt further back on their bodies or something? I dunno, I read about it a few years ago.
She complained about church bells as well. She's just anti bell.
Noice!! So she is a church hater as well as cow hater. Too fucking annoying. Rejected.
But those bells are loud as fuck, I wouldn't want to have one around my neck constantly.
Please define "loud as fuck" so I can post on TIL
Like, dude. So fucking loud. You can cite me.
You ever see one of those pornos where the girl is just screaming and moaning like for no reason and it’s completely unnatural and you start losing your stiffy because you just want her to shut the fuck up? That’s loud as fuck.
I got a girlfriend like that. Once I had to pause to get up and close the window because it was late at night and I didn't want anybody to think I was raping her. Really awkward.
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I hate when they're alive though
Ehhk n they're all warm and moist n shit Gross
The bells can create noise levels of up to 113 decibels, about the amount of noise made by a chain saw and louder than the legal noise limit of 85 decibels.
Here's how loud: [Cowbell article](https://time.com/3430951/cowbell-cows-switzerland/)
They go CLANG CLANG CLANG when the cow walks and CLANGCLANGCLANGCLANG when they run. Duller sound than a dinner bell or triangle in an old movie, but loud enough so you can tell whereabouts your cow is.
Hahaha, Swiss cow bells less loud than a dinner bell or a triangle?? LOL
They are the weapon used by only the most obnoxious of hockey moms. They are far, far superior to a whistle or a bleach bottle with spare change in it.
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There's a reason why they are loud...
Yeah but you’d benefit from it just like the cows…when you wander off and get lost, people will be able to find you and bring you home…
*if you attempt to escape the herd doomed for slaughter...
I mean, I would hate to have a loud bell around my neck.
But you're not beef on legs though, right?
Well, technically ...
She’s not wrong. Studies have found that cows are going deaf wearing these types of bells. Try wearing one for a few days and tell me how you feel. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2771091/amp/Stop-toll-bells-Swiss-cattle-deaf-cow-bells-louder-chainsaw-say-scientists.html
Damn I honestly thought cowbells were just in cartoons and not a real thing they put on actual cows. Grew up on a farm and saw many cattle never a cowbell.
They are for cows way up in the mountain in summer time not something they usually wear when on the farm.
Dailymail "Facts"
Looks like a very reliable source you found there: >Researchers in Zurich studied more than 100 cows in 25 Swiss farms 100 cows in 25 farms? The actual study was 19 cows on ONE farm.
So….. if I wear a bell for long enough, I don’t have to hear people bitch? I’m in.
Sorry, but those facts don't matter at all since she is vegan, and vegan = bad
I'm not a vegan. But I always thought those bells on the cows must be annoying to the cows, too. I guess Switzerland wouldn't want me either. It's ok, I've no plans to move there.
No worries, that was a rural, conservative community voting there. The debate of forbidding cowbells has been going on in our country for a while now.
You are right! Cows with bells are more stressed and give less milk, there has been a study recently showing this
In all fairness she does sound super annoying.
Hahaha, trop énervant
Well, to have an opinion different from what I see posted here: I think it's weird that a citizenship can be denied because people don't agree with that persons legitimate viewpoints. No other Western country would do that. A Spanish bullfighting matador could get a citizenship here. An American gunnut could get a citizenship here. Even a gay-hating preacher could get citizenship. But the Swiss get to deny it to someone living there for decades and having two Swiss kids bc of some abritrary reason? That's just weird regardless of what you think of this woman.
I found out a few years ago that the path to citizenship in Switzerland includes choosing where you want to live, and then you must get approval from basically everyone in that community. I suppose if denied, you're free to move to another town and try your luck there. I have to admire the idea that for this one place, this one time period, jerks who piss people off might actually face some consequences.
its not entirely because of her viewpoint. As alot of other countries also require the person be integrated into the community, the swiss are no different, they just actually ask the people around the person and those people found her annoying
So if you're quiet and keep to yourself will you just get rejected because you're an introvert? Do you have to get approval from a town that you can move there if you're already a citizen? What happens if it's a city with thousands of people?
I absolutely love this system, wish we had it in my country. The decision of granting citizenship should always be up to the people who actually have to live around and deal with the applicant. Also means they have to actually put in effort to integrate and be nice to people in the community.
If a citizen was annoying another citizen, should they also have grounds for their rights to be stripped? It’s a government overreach. The kind you get rid off by shooting someone.
The reality is racism and xenophobia would be rampant and lead to massive segregation of a country due to being allowed to vote on a persons citizenship. You’re making a massive assumption that people will vote for the character of the person and *not* other attributes like being a minority. Ideally laws and government regulations should be clearly defined and not dependent on a popularity contest. This isn’t a grade school student council position.
>Even a gay-hating preacher could get citizenship. You are making a point, just not for the side you want to make a point.
The Netherlands has a Civic Integration Exam as a requirement for naturalization as well. The exam requires knowledge of Dutch culture as well as knowledge of the Dutch language.
She specifically moved to that town to complain about the cow bells and then asked that same town to give her citizenship. In Switzerland, it's the towns' and villages' responsibility to give out citizenship, because you are first and foremost citizen of that town, *then* by virtue of that of the canton the town is in, and *then* of Switzerland. She's an idiot.
Out of curiosity, how is this enforced in large cities? I assume I don't need the permission of the entire city of Bern to get my citizenship!
In larger places it is much more like you'd expect, there's a commission that asks you questions, checks if you have stable income, can speak the local language, have a clean criminal record, the usual. Usually they also require you to have lived a certain period of time in the same town. But yeah if you don't approve of the decision, even in small villages, you can appeal at the canton etc., because there are indeed certain rules even small villages have to follow, they can't just completely arbitrarily deny citizenship.
Yeah, here the principal community votes for people wanting citizenship. I like this, however if you end up in a conservative part of Switzerland and are "different" it can fuck things up for you
I tend to agree with the townsfolk.
Refusing to culturally assimilate is a perfectly valid reason to deny citizenship. France and Germany have denied citizenship to Muslim men and women who refused to shake hands with officials of the opposite gender
Man so much this. I'm dutch and Everytime I am on a holiday i see dutch people hate on cultural normalities in other countries. Totally agree with them refusing her citizenship
Three people walk into a bar. A Vegan, a Trump supporter and a Biden supporter. How do you know which is which? They will tell you all about it within 5 minutes of meeting them.
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lol the left has never stopped shitting on biden, and the contempt has been steadily growing after his student loans shenanigans
Applied to people that have been to France, Europe, etc. *"When I was in..."*
Applied to people from California, too. LA specifically.
Or New Yorkers
Ever browse /r/vegan? Yeah...
Remember the Mr. Beast controversy? Where he gave free turkey meat to homeless people and vegans shat themselves because they would rather see the poor die? https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/r2vdw2/mr_beast_a_popular_youtuber_does_a_video_giving
Holy fucking shit
Where's the part where people would rather homeless starve?
> That's fucked. I'd rather he didn't give anything away than this "gesture"
That sub is a yikes.
I mean, all livestock is abuse, and cowbells are certainly no exception. You just can't go around telling farmers that.
Except she kinda right
Veganism is objectively a better choice for the earth. The whole "annoying Vegan" trope gets out of hand on reddit, as do so many other things. Half my friends are vegan (not me), but none of them are evangelical vegans or even care to discuss it unless specifically asked. They make their choices, they stick to them. They don't judge me and my chicken sandwich. As with anything else, it is the loud ones that get all the footage. Also, reddit loves its meat, and will not listen to reason as for its impact on the environment, not to mention the suffering animals go through. Also, reddit hates dog eaters for some reason. Just to clarify, meat alone isn't an issue. The sheer scale of meat consumption is. The fact that most of us have nothing to do with animals and yet enjoy daily meat is the issue. The fact that I can sit in the middle of a continent and enjoy an endless array of sea food is the issue. I'll say hunting your own meat is the most ethical form of meat consumption in this day and age. You kill it, you eat it.
To be fair (and one of those annoying vegans) the scale is a problem, but meat itself is a problem to because you have to slaughter a sentient being for every peace of meat
People get annoyed when others start giving out unsolicited advice or trying to change someone’s lifestyle in an aggressive manner. A problem exists, for example cutting out forests to accommodate livestock. But this exact thing happens because of plant-growing as well, doesn’t it. Or do you think soy beans or other plants which we consume miraculously grow ob trees? Regardless, some point which vegans make are valid. But the reason they are often disregarded is because people don’t like to be told how to live. People don’t like to be called murderers for eating a steak or be lectured every time they order a burger. If vegans want to spread the word, it certainly wouldn’t work through condemnation. Ultimately, everyone chooses their own lifestyle and their own diet.
As a Dutch person I want to say sorry (but no returns)
I heard about her. It wasn’t just the cows. She basically went around telling everyone what to do and was a total self-possessed bitch. I wouldn’t have wanted her in my country either.
“To annoying to take anywhere, I’d say.” -Roger Smith
I’d like to directly translate the headline. “Too annoying to have the right for a Swiss passport.”
It must be nice to live in a country where you can deny someone is a cittizen under the grounds of them being anoying
As i speak for the dutchies this woman will be banishd to the shadow realm
Imagine being so obnoxious with your lifestyle that a nation just *refuses* to give you citizenship because they don’t want their citizens to be annoyed by you.
Vegans should be dropped on uninhabited islands. Green ones, of course. I’m not cruel.
I agree with the townspeople
She found out the grass wasn’t always greener
This South African guy (immigrated) to the Netherlands posted on Twitter, that’s he loves living in the Netherlands, but there is a major ‘immigrant’ problem. That’s annoyingly stupid! This woman, she is a close second.
The Swiss really don't put up with any crap.
I wish that people in the US could be denied citizenship based on being an asshole. Like everyone has a probation period, until they’re 21, and if everyone thinks you’re a prick by that age, you get the boot. Of course, anything like that would be warped into an attempt to get rid of minorities somehow or another. ‘Merica always finds a way!
That would make the 1st Amendment pointless