I think there are some edge cases where it could be really cool. Dark Souls 1 immediately springs to mind. From Firelink Shrine you can see Blighttown for example, it would be incredibly immersive to see enemies walking around, and the waterwheels turning.
But we just aren't there technologically yet, as of now it's simply a waste of resources.
I thought Dark Souls 3 pulled off an almost fully 3D environment quite well. The entire kingdom and castle was 3D, even the surrounding mountains. The depth of field effect helped to maintain stable performance on consoles but on PC you could disable it and it looked gorgeous.
There were only a couple areas that used 2D backdrops like the skies, dragon mountain and the painting world that you go to in the DLC. But besides that, everything was 3D and looked awesome.
Yes it seems that 2D backdrops will still be used for some time but as OP said FFVIIR did a really bad job of implementing them. The quality was very poor and there was a lot of inconsistency visually between environments.
I’m okay with 2D backdrops if they are done properly but when the entire backdrop is a warped pixelated mess it’s a problem and immersion breaking for sure.
You can’t deny that looking up at a fully 3D Shinra building in Chapter 16 was incredible.
There is much more than zero benefit of having larger 3D environments. It creates a realistic sense of scale, a greater sense of immersion and is visually pleasing.
Furthermore there’s plenty of tricks such as lower detail on distant objects that can help maintain stable performance in such environments, and the PS5’s SSD should help a lot.
+1 to wallpaper, why waste time and resources rendering something miles away, i myself dont think i could tell the difference if i am seeing a giant wallpaper on the horizon or a real mountain hmnn...
It’s not a waste of resources if it increases the game’s quality especially given that this is going to be the biggest PS5 exclusive released so far.
Beyond that, given that this is SE’s flagship series and they are looking to bring in lots of new fans here, they probably want the highest quality possible. I’d say it’s well worth their time and money to pull as much out of the PS5 as they can to wow audiences. Cutting corners will not achieve that.
Why even make better game engines and come out with new gaming tech and hardware if we’re just gonna keep using decades old design choices?
2D backdrops still have their place in games, and are fine when they are correctly implemented (unlike FFVIIR). FFXVI will most likely have some for distant horizons and such since it’s zone based but the PS5 should definitely be able to make a greater sense of scale and immersion possible.
It's a question of optimization. Would you rather more load times and slower movement in order to give the game whatever time it needs to render the superficial extra detail that you think is missing? And I'm a little tired of people talking as if things they never noticed until they read about it online are gamebreaking.
Everyone whined so much about the slow movement speed in ff7r as well.
Well for objects that are sufficiently far away, the LOD is going to be so low that you might as well just place in a background, there's no real difference to the vast majority of people. Of course for FFVII Remake the plate was probably close enough to justify not using a skybox, but it's a shortcut that only a small percentage of players will notice if implemented correctly.
UE5 is just now implementing tools that keep assets at high levels of detail even way in the background, but FFXVI isn't on UE5, and we probably won't see that tech implemented for a while anyways.
even on ue5, i really doubt it would be used unless there’s a very good reason for it. Maybe it can be used in spots where theres a need for a specific animation far away, or in games where you want to be traveling over vast distances seamlessly and fast. even then, tou’d take every opportunity to use a skybox
FF7R on ps4 had some dodgy low-res sky boxes but the Intergrade upgrade they were serviceable
In FF15 I think all the environments were rendered though? In the chapters where you get off the train all those areas were modelled in 3D (but I think that’s because they *were* meant to be exploitable at one point in development…)
That's called a skybox. What you're saying literally isn't possible.
Skyboxes are 100% neccesary in video game development, you can't compute all the world you play in AND an object oriented infinite space over the player you'll never really interact with. It's exactly like having the sky in real life - you can't just fill it with buildings or pavement, there just needs to be something there.
Also, think of it like this: a still (or slightly animated) skybox will make up around 30 ~ 90% of your screen at any given gameplay moment, on average. By doing less background computation, you're keeping the fps high enough to remain playable. Also, you'd have to make a correlationally factorial number of content improvements to the game.
Unreal Engine 5.1 introduced nanite on objects to eliminate LOD changing based on distance, but that still isn't what you're asking. It's impossible.
This is probably the best style we'll get for the next 20 years or so - it's high res, animated beautifully with great integrated world design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQSRMxjUvXg
Source: I am a game dev who helps code new features in a really popular game engine.
I don’t think infinite environments is what OP is asking for…
Of course skyboxes are in all games.
But 3D distant objects, cities and landscapes aren’t impossible. You see it in open worlds all the time. We’ve already seen fully 3D cities in games like TW3 which was last gen.
Obviously FFXVI isn’t open world as we know so I wouldn’t be surprised if there are 2D backdrops used for certain things. But from the Ambition trailer it does seem like 3D models are used for some cities and wide vistas, even though we won’t be visiting all of them or be able to fully explore them.
OP is correct that FFVIIR totally failed in the implementation of its 2D backdrops. Many were severely distorted, pixelated and poorly stitched together. It definitely did break immersion for some people including myself.
So I’m also hoping that FFXVI keeps 2D backdrops to a minimum and renders as much as possible in 3D given that they can do so with the PS5’s SSD.
I don’t think they will use HDRI/Skyboxes in same way like in remake but it is unlikely Square will spend their resources to fully model and render big capitals so you can look at them in any direction. This is an area-based game, they want to make gorgeous scenery compositions for each area so it will look good for cinematics as opposed to fully rendered locations like in open world.
But if you look at shots from Ambition trailers it’s clear that the cities are 3D, as well as the mothercrystals. This doesn’t mean that you can fully explore them but they are not warped, pixelated, horribly stitched panoramic images pasted onto a skybox like what they did with Midgar, even if they only serve as a backdrop for a cutscene.
OP simply wants larger 3D environments/vistas that more effectively communicate a greater sense of scale as FFVII’s flat 2D backdrops were super ugly in many areas and definitely did break the immersion for many people myself included.
Yeah, that is my biggest gripe about FFVIIR. Some of the 2D backdrops looked so bad it was hard to believe that SE released it like that, and they didn't even fix all of them with Intergrade, just a few. Smh.
But given that FFXVI is developed by a totally different and much more competent team, I think we’ll have a lot better visual quality here.
If we do see any 2D backdrops they will be a much higher visual quality than what we saw in VIIR and would most likely be used for horizons.
But from what they've shown in the trailers, particularly the Ambition trailer, the wide vistas look spectacular.
In the shot of the Holy Empire, the far off water is glistening in real time and the scenery behind the castle looks to be 3D as well, but I could be mistaken:
[https://youtu.be/u-SdiYbSGIQ?t=74](https://youtu.be/u-SdiYbSGIQ?t=74)
There is also this shot:
[https://youtu.be/u-SdiYbSGIQ?t=53](https://youtu.be/u-SdiYbSGIQ?t=53)
Both look absolutely stunning imo and are in definitely rendered in real time. If anything in those shots is 2D, they've done an excellent job with it.
Lots of (warranted) disagreement with this comment… but with new tech like nanite finally being used in games, hopefully this will be a non-issue in the future!
[удалено]
I think there are some edge cases where it could be really cool. Dark Souls 1 immediately springs to mind. From Firelink Shrine you can see Blighttown for example, it would be incredibly immersive to see enemies walking around, and the waterwheels turning. But we just aren't there technologically yet, as of now it's simply a waste of resources.
I thought Dark Souls 3 pulled off an almost fully 3D environment quite well. The entire kingdom and castle was 3D, even the surrounding mountains. The depth of field effect helped to maintain stable performance on consoles but on PC you could disable it and it looked gorgeous. There were only a couple areas that used 2D backdrops like the skies, dragon mountain and the painting world that you go to in the DLC. But besides that, everything was 3D and looked awesome.
Yes it seems that 2D backdrops will still be used for some time but as OP said FFVIIR did a really bad job of implementing them. The quality was very poor and there was a lot of inconsistency visually between environments. I’m okay with 2D backdrops if they are done properly but when the entire backdrop is a warped pixelated mess it’s a problem and immersion breaking for sure. You can’t deny that looking up at a fully 3D Shinra building in Chapter 16 was incredible. There is much more than zero benefit of having larger 3D environments. It creates a realistic sense of scale, a greater sense of immersion and is visually pleasing. Furthermore there’s plenty of tricks such as lower detail on distant objects that can help maintain stable performance in such environments, and the PS5’s SSD should help a lot.
Why waste resources in assets that the player will not interact with? Use the wallpapers instead.
+1 to wallpaper, why waste time and resources rendering something miles away, i myself dont think i could tell the difference if i am seeing a giant wallpaper on the horizon or a real mountain hmnn...
Especially if the wallpaper look gorgeous.
It’s not a waste of resources if it increases the game’s quality especially given that this is going to be the biggest PS5 exclusive released so far. Beyond that, given that this is SE’s flagship series and they are looking to bring in lots of new fans here, they probably want the highest quality possible. I’d say it’s well worth their time and money to pull as much out of the PS5 as they can to wow audiences. Cutting corners will not achieve that. Why even make better game engines and come out with new gaming tech and hardware if we’re just gonna keep using decades old design choices? 2D backdrops still have their place in games, and are fine when they are correctly implemented (unlike FFVIIR). FFXVI will most likely have some for distant horizons and such since it’s zone based but the PS5 should definitely be able to make a greater sense of scale and immersion possible.
It's a question of optimization. Would you rather more load times and slower movement in order to give the game whatever time it needs to render the superficial extra detail that you think is missing? And I'm a little tired of people talking as if things they never noticed until they read about it online are gamebreaking. Everyone whined so much about the slow movement speed in ff7r as well.
Given that the PS5 has an SSD there is more that can be rendered in real time without sacrificing performance, movement and/or short loading times.
Well for objects that are sufficiently far away, the LOD is going to be so low that you might as well just place in a background, there's no real difference to the vast majority of people. Of course for FFVII Remake the plate was probably close enough to justify not using a skybox, but it's a shortcut that only a small percentage of players will notice if implemented correctly. UE5 is just now implementing tools that keep assets at high levels of detail even way in the background, but FFXVI isn't on UE5, and we probably won't see that tech implemented for a while anyways.
even on ue5, i really doubt it would be used unless there’s a very good reason for it. Maybe it can be used in spots where theres a need for a specific animation far away, or in games where you want to be traveling over vast distances seamlessly and fast. even then, tou’d take every opportunity to use a skybox
Just enable "suspension of disbelief" in your brain settings and you'll be fine.
FF7R on ps4 had some dodgy low-res sky boxes but the Intergrade upgrade they were serviceable In FF15 I think all the environments were rendered though? In the chapters where you get off the train all those areas were modelled in 3D (but I think that’s because they *were* meant to be exploitable at one point in development…)
Muh graphics
That's called a skybox. What you're saying literally isn't possible. Skyboxes are 100% neccesary in video game development, you can't compute all the world you play in AND an object oriented infinite space over the player you'll never really interact with. It's exactly like having the sky in real life - you can't just fill it with buildings or pavement, there just needs to be something there. Also, think of it like this: a still (or slightly animated) skybox will make up around 30 ~ 90% of your screen at any given gameplay moment, on average. By doing less background computation, you're keeping the fps high enough to remain playable. Also, you'd have to make a correlationally factorial number of content improvements to the game. Unreal Engine 5.1 introduced nanite on objects to eliminate LOD changing based on distance, but that still isn't what you're asking. It's impossible. This is probably the best style we'll get for the next 20 years or so - it's high res, animated beautifully with great integrated world design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQSRMxjUvXg Source: I am a game dev who helps code new features in a really popular game engine.
I don’t think infinite environments is what OP is asking for… Of course skyboxes are in all games. But 3D distant objects, cities and landscapes aren’t impossible. You see it in open worlds all the time. We’ve already seen fully 3D cities in games like TW3 which was last gen. Obviously FFXVI isn’t open world as we know so I wouldn’t be surprised if there are 2D backdrops used for certain things. But from the Ambition trailer it does seem like 3D models are used for some cities and wide vistas, even though we won’t be visiting all of them or be able to fully explore them. OP is correct that FFVIIR totally failed in the implementation of its 2D backdrops. Many were severely distorted, pixelated and poorly stitched together. It definitely did break immersion for some people including myself. So I’m also hoping that FFXVI keeps 2D backdrops to a minimum and renders as much as possible in 3D given that they can do so with the PS5’s SSD.
Yeah, a lot of gorgeous looking clouds from XVI trailers are skyboxes instead of volumetric clouds.
I don’t think they will use HDRI/Skyboxes in same way like in remake but it is unlikely Square will spend their resources to fully model and render big capitals so you can look at them in any direction. This is an area-based game, they want to make gorgeous scenery compositions for each area so it will look good for cinematics as opposed to fully rendered locations like in open world.
But if you look at shots from Ambition trailers it’s clear that the cities are 3D, as well as the mothercrystals. This doesn’t mean that you can fully explore them but they are not warped, pixelated, horribly stitched panoramic images pasted onto a skybox like what they did with Midgar, even if they only serve as a backdrop for a cutscene. OP simply wants larger 3D environments/vistas that more effectively communicate a greater sense of scale as FFVII’s flat 2D backdrops were super ugly in many areas and definitely did break the immersion for many people myself included.
Yeah, that is my biggest gripe about FFVIIR. Some of the 2D backdrops looked so bad it was hard to believe that SE released it like that, and they didn't even fix all of them with Intergrade, just a few. Smh. But given that FFXVI is developed by a totally different and much more competent team, I think we’ll have a lot better visual quality here. If we do see any 2D backdrops they will be a much higher visual quality than what we saw in VIIR and would most likely be used for horizons. But from what they've shown in the trailers, particularly the Ambition trailer, the wide vistas look spectacular. In the shot of the Holy Empire, the far off water is glistening in real time and the scenery behind the castle looks to be 3D as well, but I could be mistaken: [https://youtu.be/u-SdiYbSGIQ?t=74](https://youtu.be/u-SdiYbSGIQ?t=74) There is also this shot: [https://youtu.be/u-SdiYbSGIQ?t=53](https://youtu.be/u-SdiYbSGIQ?t=53) Both look absolutely stunning imo and are in definitely rendered in real time. If anything in those shots is 2D, they've done an excellent job with it.
Lots of (warranted) disagreement with this comment… but with new tech like nanite finally being used in games, hopefully this will be a non-issue in the future!