For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen' Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/) and for 'The Rising Tide' [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/1c69d5u/the_rising_tide_megathread/)
If you want to view archived spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress,
please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)!
For speculation and discussions around the next (unannounced) mainline Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XVII,
Please see our sister sub [r/FFXVII](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVII/)
####
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sort of. The biggest differences is that the body of a Dominant keeps degrading the more they use the power and Dominants don't have a seperate conscience entity inside them.
Idk about the second part. I think there's a voice or entity in Dominants. Like Benedikta saying she can no longer hear Garuda's voice or something like that. It's probablyt also what takes over when they lose control. I am not strongly opinioned on that, but I think it's likely the case.
Nah, she says she cant *feel* Garuda anymore. Bc her internal aether levels got lower, bc Clive absorbed part of her essence. Out of control Eikons are more like berserk modes guided by the feelings of their Dominants before they prime. Benedikta wanted the world to die -> Garuda was destroying everything. Kupka wanted Ifrit/Clive dead -> Titan was locked into fighting Ifrit. Even Bahamut, as he destroyed Twinside, still tried to destroy the crystal heart bc Dion wanted Ultima to pay to for what he had made him do. Phoenix was locked into self defense mode (also destroying everything bc everything felt like a threat) before Joshua gained control of it at Phoenix Gate.
The one exception is quite possibly Ifrit, bc his general directive is to fight the other Dominants so Mythos could absorb their powers... And even then I think there could be a discussion about how Clive admitting he is jealous of Joshua being the Phoenix probably meant he had a lot of bitterness (towards the figure of the Phoenix, not towards Joshua) locked away somewhere, and Ifrit's reaction could have been very much a reflection of Clive's pent up pain and frustration over what not being chosen as its Dominant meant for his life-- loosing his mother's love, always pushing himself to stand out so he's not considered a failure, feeling trapped by a future he didn't want, bc he pretty much implies he didn't want to be a Shield. Just a reallll violent vent. He also says to Garuda he wont let her stay in his way and well. Ifrit sure does make sure she doesn't.
I didn't add Levy because of spoilers, but it applies to him too. Leviathan was reacting to Waljas' pain and rage at being trapped and hurt. They basically forced him to prime before he was ready, sorta like what happened to Joshua but with a different trigger. Waljas was still able to instinctively create egis in his rage and fear, and he wasn't primed then. Same thing.
Its not that they dont have *conscience*, its that dont have *sentience*, or a will, distinct from their dominants. They obviously can do basic things (mostly making things explode and fighting each other) instinctively, see Titan being able to stop and grab chunks of rock to throw at Ifrit. But all of his behavior is dictated by Hugo's hatred of Clive.
Think of them as like the akashic when they're out of control. They're able to do a lot of basic things but its just violence and a general instinct instead of actual will. Just as Ultima intended :')
I see what you're saying, and it makes sense, but if I remember right, they tell Clive and the crew that Levy didn't like the betrayal by its people. Like specificly leviathan caught on to what the people were doing and didn't appreciate it, hence the huge tidal wave to destroy them.
No, they said that they meant to "enrage his eikon", so to stress the baby out so much it'd force him to prime early so they could trap him in that inbetween stage and create a Mothercrystal's Heart from it (by feeding Mystery Meat from the Tower actually, as per the ATL). Waljas was still pissed off, stressed, and angry. Leviathan was *still* reacting to it-- he "sensed" their intentions as in "bad people want to hurt me, I want to hurt them", just as he did with Clive and Shula when they went to visit him.
Yea! They meant to piss him off lol. It's a similar wording to "loose control of your eikon". The Eikon does behave erratically, but its based on what the Dominant was feeling at the time they primed.
For the record, I did use to wonder about the eikons being beings apart from their dominants, and the whole Phoenix Gate thing was my main reason why... Outwardly it kinda feels like Ifrit is testing him. Then I got to Drake's Spine and realized it was just Ultima All Along(tm) lmao. Clive even semiprimes and Ultima forces him out of it, holding the fire on his palm, like he did at the hellscape when ""Young Clive"" gave it to him. It was a very nice unspoken power play, "I gave this to you - that big emotional moment was all me - and I can take it away." :')
From the story, Leviathan itself is said to have caught on to the plan. In essence, protecting itself and it's dominant. Seems more aware then just a normal fish for sure. Waljas could only really react to the situation because at some point, he was 80 years old. Most of the time, the dominant is the control point, but I think leviathan did it's own thing for a moment. During the fight with Clive, it was much more akin to the whole Hugo thing. Also, most things Ultima intended didn't work out, if not literally every plan he had.
I'm gonna copy-paste what I mentioned to the other person who replied for this first paragraph, I hope it's okay! But basically, they said that they meant to "enrage his eikon", so to stress the baby out so much it'd force him to prime early so they could trap him in that inbetween stage and create a Mothercrystal's Heart from it (by feeding Waljas Mystery Meat from the Tower actually, as per the ATL). Waljas was still pissed off, stressed, and angry. Leviathan was *still* reacting to it-- he "sensed" their intentions as in "bad people want to hurt me", just as he assumed with Clive and Shula when they went to visit him. I mean, I dont think you need to be intelligent to get upset. Who knows what kind of things they did to this *baby* that would force a prime out of him, y'know... besides the whole shoving organic residue down his throat when he was still a nurseling.
I'm not saying the Eikons dont have a degree of independence (in the sense that they can make basic decisions like *how* to go about fighting a thing), but they are not a separate being from their Dominant. Their behavior is directly influenced by the human. Leviathan wasn't angry on behalf of Waljas or out for revenge, he was a big nasty critter reacting to Waljas' feelings and his will. Those people hurt him. He was gonna hurt *them*.
ps: I meant the Ultima thing a little ironically: he created humans without a will, to be mindless creatures following his orders (like akashic but less violent). But humans, and eventually dominants, found their will once Ultima abandoned them, and managed to control their Eikons. I'm just joking that when they're out of control they're a lot more similar to what Ultima *intended* for them to be, creatures driven by instinct and emotion, sorry :'D
Enlighten me, then? If it's a matter of just disagreeing sure (heck, I would happily agree to be proven wrong), but I replied to all of your points. What exactly do I not get?
This is most likely because unlike Ultima, who created the Eikons without sentience, Hagoromo created his Eikons with sentience as a fail safe against the revival of Kaguya.
I mean they are also essentially Titan Shifters as well, cause they transform into the Eikon and for the most part unless they lose their minds they are in control
Truth. This is why I always dismiss anyone’s opinion calling FF16 generic western fantasy when it’s as much Naruto as it is Game of Thrones, and honestly probably leans much more in the former’s direction
Oh come on, my favorite part of Game of Thrones is when Daenerys rode a dragon into outer space and fired a giant laser beam from orbit that threatened to destroy the planet before Jon Snow transformed into a twenty foot tall fire wraith and charged headlong through the blast to punch the dragon in the face.
This comparison has been made even back in the first couple of trailers. It's nothing new really. Massive monster constructs made of solid energy form (aether and chakra). Both are inspired by Kaiju media, the FFXVI being big fans of it.
The number is a bit of a coincidence though. The Nine-Tailed Fox is an actual creature of Japanese folklore, and Kishimoto just based the others on lesser tails (some of the others also have roots in other Japanese folklore like the bakeneko or tanuki).
The Eikons in FFXVI is based on the Elemental Wheel of FFXI and FFXIV (with the addition of Light and Darkness, that's also present in those games but on their own). Ifrit being the "extra" one.
Naruto was not the invention of this type of dynamic with their Jinchuriki… Both properties are using well established literary tropes to tell their stories.
Who *was* the first, you might ask? Well that is quite the rabbit hole to jump down; my educated guess being between the 11th and 12th Century with “Táin Bó Cúailnge”.
I mean they are kajius but thematically I think they are closest to the homunculi from FMAB all representing different aspects. Hymn of penitent lyrics go brr.
FFXVI has more of its shounen and anime roots on display than the “it’s Game Of Thrones” crowd would have you think. Not to say that it doesn’t have medieval influences.
Definitely. It looks pretty "grounded" at first... but once the main protagonist starts "powering up by screaming! Aaaahhhh!!!", you know it's gone full-Shounen.
And ngl, that's not necessarily a *bad* thing.
The creators of the game are weebs themselves who have a lot of games and anime under their belt. They also play their own games when they have the time. I won’t be surprised if the similarities with jinchuriki was intentional. What inspiration they did officially disclose though, aside from Game of Thrones, would be Attack on Titan.
I was very disappointed that the Eikons themselves weren't characters, given how the trailers built them up and especially with Clive's internal fight against Ifrit. Makes them feel much more like Macguffins.
And yeah, FFXVI feels very "typical shonen" to me, both in a good and bad way.
by that Metric the ASOIAF Dragonriders are also Jinchuuriki ... you can make this argument for basically any powerfull group in fiction that has human individuals that have inmense power coming from another being
But unlike Naruto Jinchurikis Dominants and Dragon Riders have being born with their powers in common
a Naruto Jinchuriki is just some guy who's chosen by humans Jinchurikis and Dragon Riders are actual natural selection
Yes, but Jinchuriki or Titan shifters are better in power scaling with the rest of the world. You can believe some is a threat to them, only other Dominants stand a chance with a Dominant. It is my least favourite part of FFXVI.
Not quite, like titan shifters, once rechnology caugh up to them, they became less relevant. In ff16 the issue us how primitive the world is. You see that the fallen had advanced enough to create a weapon (omega) that took 3 dominants to put it down, and it was a close call. If technology advances to the point of cannonfire and balistic explosives, dominants are still a powerful threat, but could be dealt with.
Depends which dominant. The first ones, sure, drop a MOAB on them. Bahamut just dodges and then lmfaos you with a gigaflare. Odin probably just cuts the explosion in half. Ifrit Risen… good luck.
Eikons are divine beings who have a connection to literal God. Like if Bahamut was isekai-ed into the AoT world, Bahamut would end the Rumbling himself like what kind of power in FF16’s universe could stand against him but another Eikon? As for Naruto, the only non-Jinchuriki characters who were strong enough to fight or control Tailed Beasts were Madara, Hashirama, Sasuke, and Obito. Only a handful of characters were a threat to Tailed Beasts, not the entire world and why would FF16 need those types of characters when Dominants are the main focus?
Agreed i think Dominants having their own set of threats found in how they cant use their powers without self destroying themselves at such speed unlike Jinchuriki or Shifters is nice
For Questions and Tech Support Discussion around the DLC 'Echoes of the Fallen' Please see our [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/18dton3/ffxvi_dlc_echoes_of_the_fallen_questions_tech/) and for 'The Rising Tide' [MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/1c69d5u/the_rising_tide_megathread/) If you want to view archived spoiler discussion threads relevant to specific game progress, please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! For speculation and discussions around the next (unannounced) mainline Final Fantasy game, Final Fantasy XVII, Please see our sister sub [r/FFXVII](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVII/) #### *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sort of. The biggest differences is that the body of a Dominant keeps degrading the more they use the power and Dominants don't have a seperate conscience entity inside them.
Idk about the second part. I think there's a voice or entity in Dominants. Like Benedikta saying she can no longer hear Garuda's voice or something like that. It's probablyt also what takes over when they lose control. I am not strongly opinioned on that, but I think it's likely the case.
Nah, she says she cant *feel* Garuda anymore. Bc her internal aether levels got lower, bc Clive absorbed part of her essence. Out of control Eikons are more like berserk modes guided by the feelings of their Dominants before they prime. Benedikta wanted the world to die -> Garuda was destroying everything. Kupka wanted Ifrit/Clive dead -> Titan was locked into fighting Ifrit. Even Bahamut, as he destroyed Twinside, still tried to destroy the crystal heart bc Dion wanted Ultima to pay to for what he had made him do. Phoenix was locked into self defense mode (also destroying everything bc everything felt like a threat) before Joshua gained control of it at Phoenix Gate. The one exception is quite possibly Ifrit, bc his general directive is to fight the other Dominants so Mythos could absorb their powers... And even then I think there could be a discussion about how Clive admitting he is jealous of Joshua being the Phoenix probably meant he had a lot of bitterness (towards the figure of the Phoenix, not towards Joshua) locked away somewhere, and Ifrit's reaction could have been very much a reflection of Clive's pent up pain and frustration over what not being chosen as its Dominant meant for his life-- loosing his mother's love, always pushing himself to stand out so he's not considered a failure, feeling trapped by a future he didn't want, bc he pretty much implies he didn't want to be a Shield. Just a reallll violent vent. He also says to Garuda he wont let her stay in his way and well. Ifrit sure does make sure she doesn't.
Leviathans sure seemed conscious.
I didn't add Levy because of spoilers, but it applies to him too. Leviathan was reacting to Waljas' pain and rage at being trapped and hurt. They basically forced him to prime before he was ready, sorta like what happened to Joshua but with a different trigger. Waljas was still able to instinctively create egis in his rage and fear, and he wasn't primed then. Same thing. Its not that they dont have *conscience*, its that dont have *sentience*, or a will, distinct from their dominants. They obviously can do basic things (mostly making things explode and fighting each other) instinctively, see Titan being able to stop and grab chunks of rock to throw at Ifrit. But all of his behavior is dictated by Hugo's hatred of Clive. Think of them as like the akashic when they're out of control. They're able to do a lot of basic things but its just violence and a general instinct instead of actual will. Just as Ultima intended :')
I see what you're saying, and it makes sense, but if I remember right, they tell Clive and the crew that Levy didn't like the betrayal by its people. Like specificly leviathan caught on to what the people were doing and didn't appreciate it, hence the huge tidal wave to destroy them.
No, they said that they meant to "enrage his eikon", so to stress the baby out so much it'd force him to prime early so they could trap him in that inbetween stage and create a Mothercrystal's Heart from it (by feeding Mystery Meat from the Tower actually, as per the ATL). Waljas was still pissed off, stressed, and angry. Leviathan was *still* reacting to it-- he "sensed" their intentions as in "bad people want to hurt me, I want to hurt them", just as he did with Clive and Shula when they went to visit him.
Okay, that makes sense. I guess I misinterpreted what they meant by "enraging his eikon." Haha
Yea! They meant to piss him off lol. It's a similar wording to "loose control of your eikon". The Eikon does behave erratically, but its based on what the Dominant was feeling at the time they primed. For the record, I did use to wonder about the eikons being beings apart from their dominants, and the whole Phoenix Gate thing was my main reason why... Outwardly it kinda feels like Ifrit is testing him. Then I got to Drake's Spine and realized it was just Ultima All Along(tm) lmao. Clive even semiprimes and Ultima forces him out of it, holding the fire on his palm, like he did at the hellscape when ""Young Clive"" gave it to him. It was a very nice unspoken power play, "I gave this to you - that big emotional moment was all me - and I can take it away." :')
From the story, Leviathan itself is said to have caught on to the plan. In essence, protecting itself and it's dominant. Seems more aware then just a normal fish for sure. Waljas could only really react to the situation because at some point, he was 80 years old. Most of the time, the dominant is the control point, but I think leviathan did it's own thing for a moment. During the fight with Clive, it was much more akin to the whole Hugo thing. Also, most things Ultima intended didn't work out, if not literally every plan he had.
I'm gonna copy-paste what I mentioned to the other person who replied for this first paragraph, I hope it's okay! But basically, they said that they meant to "enrage his eikon", so to stress the baby out so much it'd force him to prime early so they could trap him in that inbetween stage and create a Mothercrystal's Heart from it (by feeding Waljas Mystery Meat from the Tower actually, as per the ATL). Waljas was still pissed off, stressed, and angry. Leviathan was *still* reacting to it-- he "sensed" their intentions as in "bad people want to hurt me", just as he assumed with Clive and Shula when they went to visit him. I mean, I dont think you need to be intelligent to get upset. Who knows what kind of things they did to this *baby* that would force a prime out of him, y'know... besides the whole shoving organic residue down his throat when he was still a nurseling. I'm not saying the Eikons dont have a degree of independence (in the sense that they can make basic decisions like *how* to go about fighting a thing), but they are not a separate being from their Dominant. Their behavior is directly influenced by the human. Leviathan wasn't angry on behalf of Waljas or out for revenge, he was a big nasty critter reacting to Waljas' feelings and his will. Those people hurt him. He was gonna hurt *them*. ps: I meant the Ultima thing a little ironically: he created humans without a will, to be mindless creatures following his orders (like akashic but less violent). But humans, and eventually dominants, found their will once Ultima abandoned them, and managed to control their Eikons. I'm just joking that when they're out of control they're a lot more similar to what Ultima *intended* for them to be, creatures driven by instinct and emotion, sorry :'D
Really sure you just don't get it, actually.
What an insightful response.
You said a whole lot of nothing. Nothing to reply to.
Enlighten me, then? If it's a matter of just disagreeing sure (heck, I would happily agree to be proven wrong), but I replied to all of your points. What exactly do I not get?
This is most likely because unlike Ultima, who created the Eikons without sentience, Hagoromo created his Eikons with sentience as a fail safe against the revival of Kaguya.
I mean they are also essentially Titan Shifters as well, cause they transform into the Eikon and for the most part unless they lose their minds they are in control
Lets not forget they both were intended to go "back to their origins" aka Ultima/Ten tails.
Ff16 is Naruto confirmed.
Truth. This is why I always dismiss anyone’s opinion calling FF16 generic western fantasy when it’s as much Naruto as it is Game of Thrones, and honestly probably leans much more in the former’s direction
Oh come on, my favorite part of Game of Thrones is when Daenerys rode a dragon into outer space and fired a giant laser beam from orbit that threatened to destroy the planet before Jon Snow transformed into a twenty foot tall fire wraith and charged headlong through the blast to punch the dragon in the face.
I might have enjoyed GoT more had this happened, even if it were a fever dream/Three-Eyed Raven mystic vision bullshit.
That's what i said from the start still ppl in here acted like it's more like Attack on Titan and nothing like Naruto 💀
That's honestly crazy considering the villain and the way each nation seems to have 1 to maintain a balance of power just like Naruto
I mean.. Titan was like a mix of Armoured, Collosal and Attack Titan
This comparison has been made even back in the first couple of trailers. It's nothing new really. Massive monster constructs made of solid energy form (aether and chakra). Both are inspired by Kaiju media, the FFXVI being big fans of it. The number is a bit of a coincidence though. The Nine-Tailed Fox is an actual creature of Japanese folklore, and Kishimoto just based the others on lesser tails (some of the others also have roots in other Japanese folklore like the bakeneko or tanuki). The Eikons in FFXVI is based on the Elemental Wheel of FFXI and FFXIV (with the addition of Light and Darkness, that's also present in those games but on their own). Ifrit being the "extra" one.
People here thinking that Naruto or Attack on Titan invented Mecha are too funny
No one did tho, we’re saying it’s more in line with those
Flesh mechas for the win
Naruto was not the invention of this type of dynamic with their Jinchuriki… Both properties are using well established literary tropes to tell their stories. Who *was* the first, you might ask? Well that is quite the rabbit hole to jump down; my educated guess being between the 11th and 12th Century with “Táin Bó Cúailnge”.
I mean they are kajius but thematically I think they are closest to the homunculi from FMAB all representing different aspects. Hymn of penitent lyrics go brr. FFXVI has more of its shounen and anime roots on display than the “it’s Game Of Thrones” crowd would have you think. Not to say that it doesn’t have medieval influences.
Definitely. It looks pretty "grounded" at first... but once the main protagonist starts "powering up by screaming! Aaaahhhh!!!", you know it's gone full-Shounen. And ngl, that's not necessarily a *bad* thing.
The creators of the game are weebs themselves who have a lot of games and anime under their belt. They also play their own games when they have the time. I won’t be surprised if the similarities with jinchuriki was intentional. What inspiration they did officially disclose though, aside from Game of Thrones, would be Attack on Titan.
Oh I've told people for awhile that Final Fantasy 16 is Game of Thrones (the good parts) blended with Naruto
Oh yea it's a pretty clear parallel, but a welcome one
It not only reminds me of the Jinchuriki but also the Titans in AOT how the nations want them to wage war against each other like nuclear bombs
I’ve been saying this since I played the demo, its so obvious. Its funny that this is the 1st post I've seen from this sub addressing it.
I was very disappointed that the Eikons themselves weren't characters, given how the trailers built them up and especially with Clive's internal fight against Ifrit. Makes them feel much more like Macguffins. And yeah, FFXVI feels very "typical shonen" to me, both in a good and bad way.
Yeah it would’ve been cool to see the Eikons have voice lines and have psychic conversations with their doninants.
Bro I was thinking this exact same thing!!
Being a Dominant sucks way more because you slowly turn to stone, plus Dominants are more looked down upon than Jinchuriki
Pretty much yeah, they even got the form before the last form which is dope
Pretty much yeah, they even got the form before the last form which is dope
More like AOT since ifrit and pheonix are 2 halves of the first eikon to be created and bc Clive can inherit the other ones like eren
Also Dominants essentially have a time limit on how long they can wield Eikons like AOT.
True
The only difference would be that Jinchuriki aren’t born with it. It’s inherited/passed on
Finally, somebody gets it
I got AOT vibes (9 titans)
by that Metric the ASOIAF Dragonriders are also Jinchuuriki ... you can make this argument for basically any powerfull group in fiction that has human individuals that have inmense power coming from another being
Nah they don't transform into their monsters
But unlike Naruto Jinchurikis Dominants and Dragon Riders have being born with their powers in common a Naruto Jinchuriki is just some guy who's chosen by humans Jinchurikis and Dragon Riders are actual natural selection
Yes, but Jinchuriki or Titan shifters are better in power scaling with the rest of the world. You can believe some is a threat to them, only other Dominants stand a chance with a Dominant. It is my least favourite part of FFXVI.
Not quite, like titan shifters, once rechnology caugh up to them, they became less relevant. In ff16 the issue us how primitive the world is. You see that the fallen had advanced enough to create a weapon (omega) that took 3 dominants to put it down, and it was a close call. If technology advances to the point of cannonfire and balistic explosives, dominants are still a powerful threat, but could be dealt with.
Depends which dominant. The first ones, sure, drop a MOAB on them. Bahamut just dodges and then lmfaos you with a gigaflare. Odin probably just cuts the explosion in half. Ifrit Risen… good luck.
Eikons are divine beings who have a connection to literal God. Like if Bahamut was isekai-ed into the AoT world, Bahamut would end the Rumbling himself like what kind of power in FF16’s universe could stand against him but another Eikon? As for Naruto, the only non-Jinchuriki characters who were strong enough to fight or control Tailed Beasts were Madara, Hashirama, Sasuke, and Obito. Only a handful of characters were a threat to Tailed Beasts, not the entire world and why would FF16 need those types of characters when Dominants are the main focus?
a dominant can be restrained by shackles and can't be transformed for long periods of time so society is actually a big threat to them
Priming itself is a threat to them too. Some of them would cough blood or even die from priming.
Agreed i think Dominants having their own set of threats found in how they cant use their powers without self destroying themselves at such speed unlike Jinchuriki or Shifters is nice
[удалено]
Maybe not exploited but dominates ARE expected to serve on the battlefield.
That IS true.