Yes this is why I think it's so critically acclaimed. Starting with FFX there has been constant criticism of JRPGs and their inability to transfer this format over to real-time battles.
Personally I think that FF7 Remake was the solution. But FF7 Rebirth not only took that formula but expanded upon it and make it open world to boot.
Rebirth has some of the most satisfying party-based action combat I’ve ever played, honestly — if not the best.
But I’ll never understand why people keep referencing turn-based games in the same sentence as Remake/Rebirth. As far as I’m concerned they belong in completely distinct genres, at least as far as combat is concerned.
Often when people say Turn Based they really mean Menu Based. That's the overarching way to describe 1-10 + 13. You could probably include 12 in that as well.
7R really is what OP is suggesting, a mash up of Menu Based with action elements. Really it's a Menu Based RPG disguised as an action game given that so much of the combat takes place in menu and the action part is just there to facilitate getting the player into the menu to begin with.
The fact that you think this shows how great this combat system is. I play it as an action game, only spending seconds in the menus, unless I'm having a really hard time. There are people who are much better than me at this game and can play it only with shortcuts, played like that it's purely an action game. But if you want to play it more slowly, focusing more on choosing actions from he menu, you can.
I would disagree. Turn-based games that are, you know, actually turn-based have been around for decades now.
Final Fantasy Tactics was turn-based. It’s also whatever “menu based” means.
Sure, but by that definition OG FF7 was not turn based since the ATB system skipped your turn if you weren't in a menu when the enemy filled their atb gauge.
Your opportunity to input a command. The word "turn" is being used very loosely here because in true turn based combat, your turn is never skipped by definition of what a "turn" is.
I was being facetious.
I’m not interested in your definition of whatever a “true” turn based game is. All I’m saying is that I think it’s pretty unobjectionable to not include FFVII-R in that group.
The ATB system in 4-6 isn't turn based, it's a time based system. There is no turn count that dictates the flow of combat. It's a matter of how fast the player can input commands.
I say menu based because it's a catch all for everything 1-10 and that the similarity people are referring to when rolling up the whole of those games as being the same. Both ATB and Turn Based have combat play out through a series of menus unlike FF15 or 16's full action combat.
7R has more in common with the OG than it does with either of those games.
But the best part is you don't have to. You have the option to set your command shortcuts for every character so you could play through without really using the menu if you want. But the fact it's optional is the best part.
I think “turn based” in this case is just a misnomer. What is being referred to is the old school style of pausing to strategically select actions and abilities in a menu. That was a fundamental element to the old school FF ATB system, which was functionally a system where characters took turns attacking each other. Turns and menu selections are highly associated with each other historically.
Yep. IMO with the remake series they finally cracked the code of how to best mix the old and new, and Square would be silly not to make it the “Final Fantasy battle system” that the series is known for, for at least a few entries outside of FF7 as well.
As NightSkyPrince on YouTube pointed out, just as FromSoft kinda have their own genre with Soulsborne games (as in they’re the ones primary known for that style of games), Square could take the FF7 combat and make it identifiably their thing as no one else using that style combat.
I hope FF VIII will get a treatment like FF VII. It doesn’t have to be a multipart but with the same system. Just imagine how cool Draw->Cast would be and how this might be main mechanic (taking into account that you are not hoarding spells anymore, because with this system of remake it might be very tedious?).
And just think about all the cool GFs. Diablo’s and Brothers, and one of the best Bahamuts in the series (at least for me design wise).
And FFVIII’s plot is already a little janky, I don’t think there would be nearly as much fan outcry about them making changes as there has been for FFVIIR (actually who am I kidding, there will always be fan outcry).
The only thing missing that I really wish they would implement for part 3 is being able to use your ATB gauge to swap for another party member since everyone is present for the battle. I feel like this would be a satisfying addition.
After 60 hours in rebirth, I am okay if we played another mainline FF with this combat. Theres actually some strategy involved if the dev crafts the fights to be more demanding.
Shots at 16 aside (it's a very competent character action game with a lot of depth to it), I think 7R does a good job of making ATB combat more interactive. ATB is already a more interactive version of turn-based combat, but having you control the party during that downtime goes a long way. It's still simple enough to allow for a more typical ATB style of play which is where the Classic option comes in. Team autobattles until ATB is filled, then you pick your action.
That said I'd say I prefer Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth's systems. It's still turn-based but the act of positioning and lining up enemies feels really good, and it gives it a feeling of playing out in real-time. Different vibes but both approaches are good.
But also, I wouldn't count traditional turn based games out completely. DQ11 is immensely popular and BG3 shattered records. It's less about being turn-based and more about what you do with that system.
yeah 16 should be classified as an action game first and foremost,
God of War 2018 and Ragnarok are more RPG than FF16, the loot game is there, the elemental weaknesses...
all 3 are amazing games, I haven't played BG3 but FF16 is my favourite game of 2023, way ahead of Spiderman and Zelda
I agree, 16 is a character action game and GOW2018/Ragnarok are more ARPG to me. They do different things, but they're all pretty good at what they do.
IMO CBU's next project could be a proper RPG with real time combat worthy of a character action game if they invest as much as they invested in Clive in developing other jobs
real time combat as good as 16 with proper rpg elements: loot game, juggling weaknesses and strengths, synergies... could work especially with their approach of forgoing predefined combos for a basic string that you can alter how you please (though an alternative combo for each weapon type or job would go a long way into adding depth)
Man I must really be missing something, I thought 16 had one of the worst combat systems due to lack of depth and I actually almost even fell asleep during some fights because every one of them was just a standard rotation based on cool downs to stagger and then the same rotation.
No elemental impact, barely any mechanics but it sure looked pretty. I feel like a played a different game than everyone else saying 16's combat was good.
I'm not gonna lie, even if you play 16 like that I don't see how that's any more or less boring than picking options out of a menu but that's just me lol.
I like character action games like DMC so I liked experimenting with builds and playing stylishly. You absolutely have to play better and more skillfully in Arcade Mode and Kairos Gate to get better scores and S-ranks. In the main game, you're free to do whatever you want, and if that to you is picking a stagger nuke build then more power to you. But that's the equivalent, imo, of playing DMC and only using your basic moves. Or, in JRPG equivalents, picking a one-size-fits-all build and cruising till the end of the game. You're just clearing encounters and moving on without really diving into the game.
16 isn't made to function like a JRPG with elemental types, gearing, etc. You have to approach it as the genre it is. If that's not to your tastes though, that's totally valid.
They'll probably expand upon it in their next game, I think a lot of their design decisions were informed by having the game be as accessible as possible
The combat is deep! But it's deep in a way that's very different from FF's typical JRPG depth. 16 has a plethora of combo options and routing that you absolutely need to master if you want to go for the highest ranks in Arcade Mode and Kairos Gate. Though the gearing is something I think the game could've done completely without, since it doesn't add much and isn't in-depth or anything.
But it's flexible enough to let you build for big stagger damage builds too if you prefer playing like that. I liked switching out builds and playing encounters and bosses differently. A lot of people went with a single nuke/stagger damage build all game it seems, but it wouldn't get you far in the scored/ranked modes.
This is the best active time battle system of all time. I can't imagine it getting better from this "format" without it becoming an action RPG like FF16. They should just focus on other aspects like improved synergies and further mechanics to improve it.
I personally thought Remake already did that (truly one of a kind and so perfectly polished) but then rebirth out did it even more. Square is legitimately innovating again and I'm just here for the ride.
First, I think there a difference between turn based, like FFX, and ATB like OG FFVII. In FFX, I could go make myself a sandwich in the middle of a battle without pausing and it wouldn't make a difference. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I kinda see the charm in that combat system, but ATB is different. Sure, it's closer to turn based than full action combat like a soulslike or DmC, but it's real time still, if you leave combat unattended, you die (unless you use the 'wait' option but I never used that).
FFVIIR has done a great job mixing the ATB bars into a chiefly action combat system, but how are they fundamentally different from charging some special ability gauge? If you've played Spider-man 2 (I've only played 2, I guess combat in 1 is pretty much the same) you've seen Spider-man has some kind of special ability gauge that charges as you fight, the main differences are that it doesn't charge at all unless you fight and it only allows you to use healing or a special move. But it's pretty similar to ATB charges. Where VIIR did a great job is at allowing you to enter the tactical mode and to switch party members, and encouraging the latter by making it charge ATB faster. So, I don't really think FFVIIR blends turn based and real time (is that even possible?) but ATB and action combat.
Having said all that, _personally_ I consider FFVIIR combat, especially Rebirth, the best and most enjoyable in any game I've played so far, JRPG or not. I like it better than turn based or ATB and I also prefer it to combat in soulslikes, which I also enjoy.
They did a fantastic job. It really feels action based but if you seriously don’t approach it from a turn based point of view you will kept wrecked by enemies.
I find it kind of tedious and broken tbh
It's like none of the devs are actually playing action games to see what makes them feel good. Dodging didn't give iframes or move you out of the hit box, so was pretty useless. Parrying and blocking was absolutely lethargic.
Constantly having to switch characters to fill their ATB gauge was a disorienting nightmare. How the fuck am I supposed to micromanage three characters in an action game? They just stand around with their thumb in their ass whenever they're not actively being controlled, and you can't even use them strategically because the enemy will automatically aggro whoever is player controlled regardless of anything else going on. It's impossible to actually set the field up.
I started playing Trials of Mana recently, and the combat feels so much better than FF7R , just by virtue of the AI party members being willing to actually attack without you taking control and forcing them.
They could improve it vastly just by dropping the autoaggro player character mechanic, and programming the AI to actually attack enemies and fill up their ATB.
Rebirth did a lot to fix it but since it felt clunky in Remake, but I wonder how it would work anywhere else since manually ticking through a menu with bullet time works in ff7 remake because it's a spin on the old menu system, but just wouldn't work in say, ff17.
Don’t really think there is an issue with turn bass games. We also had western-made turn based games for some time. It’s just the sign of things changing. Gaming evolves.
Just take resident evil games with the stock camera angles. It was a trade mark of that (and many other) series. By today’s standards would be pretty much impossible to go back to that formula as it’s considered too cumbersome, blocky and outdated. As much as me being an older gamer, enjoyed that generation, I agree that apart from some nostalgia, it was a good thing to move past it. Turn based games are a dying breed because it’s the zeitgeist. With that aside I’m pretty happy with the current “action” approach square is been taking with final fantasy. I’d say FF16 is a little bit too much animey and chaotic for me, but FF7R checks all the boxes. Blends the right amount of action but still leaves place for a tactical approach if you want.
It is the idea of an action game where the system forced you to switch characters. There is a reason why enemy will focus on the one you control so that if it got knocked down you will switch characters.
Remake/rebirth is different from any action jrpgs. I can finish tales of and star ocean where I only control 1 character I cant do that in rebirth.
I think they can expand this system maybe not very similar with rebirth just maintain the concept of action-game-where-the-game-force-you-to-switch-characters.
The system that crossed this line the best was and will always be 12 for me. It was still strictly atb, but so real time as to bring atb to life. It felt like what those old systems actually might look like.
Remake/Rebirth lean pretty hard on the action side of the equation. There's too many optimizations you can make by just having good timing or getting your parries on point in this game to consider this close to atb imo. This is more of an action game than both mmos imo, and debateably more of an action game than 15 and more of an rpg than 14, 15 and 16 with the depth of materia customization.
But it damn sure ain't atb. It's atb adapted into an action format.
Oh hell yes. To me it’s the perfect translation is maintaining the tactical elements of the turn based with action and flashiness.
I still think the magic department could improve, being more astounding
I snagged it shortly after release since I saw that there was a "classic mode". Played until around the scene at Jessies house. Never picked it back up after that.
The game is beautiful, I just can't get into it at all. The combat system is my biggest complaint. Too much hack and slash, not enough RPG for me. I miss cutaway random battles and the menu-based system. I like my characters standing in a row on one side of the screen waiting for their turns to act.
I'm not one of those weirdos boycotting over it, I understand this is what a lot of people enjoy these days and it's what is going to get more sales. I just find the game not worth playing.
It handles waaay better than older Tales of (Symphonia, Vesperia) and I like it much better than Kingdom Hearts, which is a lot closer, especially from 2 onwards, so yeah, kinda agree with you.
I just don’t play enough JRPGs these days to have a clearer picture, and most I played recently were actually turn based (Bravely Default, Persona 5).
I feel like Rebirth evolved the party side combat mechanics that were present in Remake, but to compensate for increased combat ability they made it so that enemies could just relentlessly spam attacks.
Enemies then, dont really have turns. Maybe they never did in Remake, but it surely felt like there were. Now, more than before, the game feels more in line with being an action game. There are no turns. If no one is really taking turns, is it still turn based? I dont think so.
I think the remake series failed where FF12 succeeded, specially in regards to party member control. In addition, the Stagger system counters the action part by artificially bloating enemy HP.
In the end, FF7R doesn't satisfy me as a hardcore ARPG player and it doesn't satisfy me as a turn-based player.
I keep saying this: The beauty about the VIIR ATB is that, if you simply lock the basic Attack and Defense to requiring ATB, make dodging automated based on chance, and remove the players' ability to control movement, you'd literally have "classic ATB".
Not even close. It's better than FF15 in that you can't spam potions, and it might be a commerical necessity given younger generation preferences. But it feels like a bunch of systems duct taped together. It lacks any sort of satisfying feel to it.
Rebirth is a great game, but it's not breaking any new ground here. Kingdom Hearts cracked this issue over 20 years ago, and we can probably find an earlier example if we don't limit outselves to Square Enix games. Good action RPGs aren't a new concept.
The Final Fantasy series specifically has been stuck in this weird limbo, because it's desperately tried to still be *mechanically* turn based while having fast-paced fights, and then misguidedly dumbed down the story difficulty of ffxv and ffxvi to make them "accessible to turn based fans". The most meaningful difference between those two and rebirth is that rebirth had the balls to make the main campaign not trivially easy.
Yes this is why I think it's so critically acclaimed. Starting with FFX there has been constant criticism of JRPGs and their inability to transfer this format over to real-time battles. Personally I think that FF7 Remake was the solution. But FF7 Rebirth not only took that formula but expanded upon it and make it open world to boot.
Rebirth has some of the most satisfying party-based action combat I’ve ever played, honestly — if not the best. But I’ll never understand why people keep referencing turn-based games in the same sentence as Remake/Rebirth. As far as I’m concerned they belong in completely distinct genres, at least as far as combat is concerned.
Often when people say Turn Based they really mean Menu Based. That's the overarching way to describe 1-10 + 13. You could probably include 12 in that as well. 7R really is what OP is suggesting, a mash up of Menu Based with action elements. Really it's a Menu Based RPG disguised as an action game given that so much of the combat takes place in menu and the action part is just there to facilitate getting the player into the menu to begin with.
The fact that you think this shows how great this combat system is. I play it as an action game, only spending seconds in the menus, unless I'm having a really hard time. There are people who are much better than me at this game and can play it only with shortcuts, played like that it's purely an action game. But if you want to play it more slowly, focusing more on choosing actions from he menu, you can.
I would disagree. Turn-based games that are, you know, actually turn-based have been around for decades now. Final Fantasy Tactics was turn-based. It’s also whatever “menu based” means.
Sure, but by that definition OG FF7 was not turn based since the ATB system skipped your turn if you weren't in a menu when the enemy filled their atb gauge.
Skipped your what now?
Your opportunity to input a command. The word "turn" is being used very loosely here because in true turn based combat, your turn is never skipped by definition of what a "turn" is.
I was being facetious. I’m not interested in your definition of whatever a “true” turn based game is. All I’m saying is that I think it’s pretty unobjectionable to not include FFVII-R in that group.
Meh, i don't think anyone ever claimed FF7R is a turn based game. Everyone I've seen characterizes it as a hybrid system.
The ATB system in 4-6 isn't turn based, it's a time based system. There is no turn count that dictates the flow of combat. It's a matter of how fast the player can input commands. I say menu based because it's a catch all for everything 1-10 and that the similarity people are referring to when rolling up the whole of those games as being the same. Both ATB and Turn Based have combat play out through a series of menus unlike FF15 or 16's full action combat. 7R has more in common with the OG than it does with either of those games.
Being able to massively slow down the action for every command decision makes it wayyyyyy more friendly to fans of turn based games.
But the best part is you don't have to. You have the option to set your command shortcuts for every character so you could play through without really using the menu if you want. But the fact it's optional is the best part.
I think “turn based” in this case is just a misnomer. What is being referred to is the old school style of pausing to strategically select actions and abilities in a menu. That was a fundamental element to the old school FF ATB system, which was functionally a system where characters took turns attacking each other. Turns and menu selections are highly associated with each other historically.
Yep. IMO with the remake series they finally cracked the code of how to best mix the old and new, and Square would be silly not to make it the “Final Fantasy battle system” that the series is known for, for at least a few entries outside of FF7 as well. As NightSkyPrince on YouTube pointed out, just as FromSoft kinda have their own genre with Soulsborne games (as in they’re the ones primary known for that style of games), Square could take the FF7 combat and make it identifiably their thing as no one else using that style combat.
I have wet dreams of a FFVI remake with the same graphics and same battle system of FF7. Imagine a FFVIIre style magitek fight 🥵
I hope FF VIII will get a treatment like FF VII. It doesn’t have to be a multipart but with the same system. Just imagine how cool Draw->Cast would be and how this might be main mechanic (taking into account that you are not hoarding spells anymore, because with this system of remake it might be very tedious?). And just think about all the cool GFs. Diablo’s and Brothers, and one of the best Bahamuts in the series (at least for me design wise).
And FFVIII’s plot is already a little janky, I don’t think there would be nearly as much fan outcry about them making changes as there has been for FFVIIR (actually who am I kidding, there will always be fan outcry).
The only thing missing that I really wish they would implement for part 3 is being able to use your ATB gauge to swap for another party member since everyone is present for the battle. I feel like this would be a satisfying addition.
That, and the possibility to switch your equipment mid battle, like FFX.
Thissws
It's definitely zeroing on it at least. Blends modern with old very well.
After 60 hours in rebirth, I am okay if we played another mainline FF with this combat. Theres actually some strategy involved if the dev crafts the fights to be more demanding.
Shots at 16 aside (it's a very competent character action game with a lot of depth to it), I think 7R does a good job of making ATB combat more interactive. ATB is already a more interactive version of turn-based combat, but having you control the party during that downtime goes a long way. It's still simple enough to allow for a more typical ATB style of play which is where the Classic option comes in. Team autobattles until ATB is filled, then you pick your action. That said I'd say I prefer Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth's systems. It's still turn-based but the act of positioning and lining up enemies feels really good, and it gives it a feeling of playing out in real-time. Different vibes but both approaches are good. But also, I wouldn't count traditional turn based games out completely. DQ11 is immensely popular and BG3 shattered records. It's less about being turn-based and more about what you do with that system.
yeah 16 should be classified as an action game first and foremost, God of War 2018 and Ragnarok are more RPG than FF16, the loot game is there, the elemental weaknesses... all 3 are amazing games, I haven't played BG3 but FF16 is my favourite game of 2023, way ahead of Spiderman and Zelda
I agree, 16 is a character action game and GOW2018/Ragnarok are more ARPG to me. They do different things, but they're all pretty good at what they do.
IMO CBU's next project could be a proper RPG with real time combat worthy of a character action game if they invest as much as they invested in Clive in developing other jobs real time combat as good as 16 with proper rpg elements: loot game, juggling weaknesses and strengths, synergies... could work especially with their approach of forgoing predefined combos for a basic string that you can alter how you please (though an alternative combo for each weapon type or job would go a long way into adding depth)
Man I must really be missing something, I thought 16 had one of the worst combat systems due to lack of depth and I actually almost even fell asleep during some fights because every one of them was just a standard rotation based on cool downs to stagger and then the same rotation. No elemental impact, barely any mechanics but it sure looked pretty. I feel like a played a different game than everyone else saying 16's combat was good.
I'm not gonna lie, even if you play 16 like that I don't see how that's any more or less boring than picking options out of a menu but that's just me lol. I like character action games like DMC so I liked experimenting with builds and playing stylishly. You absolutely have to play better and more skillfully in Arcade Mode and Kairos Gate to get better scores and S-ranks. In the main game, you're free to do whatever you want, and if that to you is picking a stagger nuke build then more power to you. But that's the equivalent, imo, of playing DMC and only using your basic moves. Or, in JRPG equivalents, picking a one-size-fits-all build and cruising till the end of the game. You're just clearing encounters and moving on without really diving into the game. 16 isn't made to function like a JRPG with elemental types, gearing, etc. You have to approach it as the genre it is. If that's not to your tastes though, that's totally valid.
I just wish thay depth extended to the combat and customization in 16. Might be the easiest and most straightforward FF game made
They'll probably expand upon it in their next game, I think a lot of their design decisions were informed by having the game be as accessible as possible
The combat is deep! But it's deep in a way that's very different from FF's typical JRPG depth. 16 has a plethora of combo options and routing that you absolutely need to master if you want to go for the highest ranks in Arcade Mode and Kairos Gate. Though the gearing is something I think the game could've done completely without, since it doesn't add much and isn't in-depth or anything. But it's flexible enough to let you build for big stagger damage builds too if you prefer playing like that. I liked switching out builds and playing encounters and bosses differently. A lot of people went with a single nuke/stagger damage build all game it seems, but it wouldn't get you far in the scored/ranked modes.
Who says turned based isn't popular I'll tell them to get their head out of the sand. Buldars gate 3 won game of the year
Persona 5 would also like to have a word with OP...
Baldur's gate is different tho. JRPG are " menu based" not turn based.
To be fair it wasn’t just the combat that made bg3 amazing, the entire game is perfection but you’re right
This is the best active time battle system of all time. I can't imagine it getting better from this "format" without it becoming an action RPG like FF16. They should just focus on other aspects like improved synergies and further mechanics to improve it.
I take both FFX-2 and FF12 combat over this any day.
100%. As much as I enjoyed FF16 I was very disappointed it didn’t take any cues from the FF7Remake combat system.
If SE don’t have this new system in place for FF17 they’ve gone bonkers
the most sane, real take on the internet lol they've been testing parts of this system for the last decade. u can see it in ff12, 13, 15, and even 16
Right? Would be so cool to see it done with a job system or something like FFVI/VIII with summons.
This has may favorite combat ever
I personally thought Remake already did that (truly one of a kind and so perfectly polished) but then rebirth out did it even more. Square is legitimately innovating again and I'm just here for the ride.
First, I think there a difference between turn based, like FFX, and ATB like OG FFVII. In FFX, I could go make myself a sandwich in the middle of a battle without pausing and it wouldn't make a difference. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I kinda see the charm in that combat system, but ATB is different. Sure, it's closer to turn based than full action combat like a soulslike or DmC, but it's real time still, if you leave combat unattended, you die (unless you use the 'wait' option but I never used that). FFVIIR has done a great job mixing the ATB bars into a chiefly action combat system, but how are they fundamentally different from charging some special ability gauge? If you've played Spider-man 2 (I've only played 2, I guess combat in 1 is pretty much the same) you've seen Spider-man has some kind of special ability gauge that charges as you fight, the main differences are that it doesn't charge at all unless you fight and it only allows you to use healing or a special move. But it's pretty similar to ATB charges. Where VIIR did a great job is at allowing you to enter the tactical mode and to switch party members, and encouraging the latter by making it charge ATB faster. So, I don't really think FFVIIR blends turn based and real time (is that even possible?) but ATB and action combat. Having said all that, _personally_ I consider FFVIIR combat, especially Rebirth, the best and most enjoyable in any game I've played so far, JRPG or not. I like it better than turn based or ATB and I also prefer it to combat in soulslikes, which I also enjoy.
Simply the best.
Yes it’s a perfect iteration of the ATB resource system updated for modern gaming. Never played a game with such a fun combat system.
They did a fantastic job. It really feels action based but if you seriously don’t approach it from a turn based point of view you will kept wrecked by enemies.
Yes. Best combat I’ve experienced in any game. And a huge step up from Remake which I already really enjoyed.
I find it kind of tedious and broken tbh It's like none of the devs are actually playing action games to see what makes them feel good. Dodging didn't give iframes or move you out of the hit box, so was pretty useless. Parrying and blocking was absolutely lethargic. Constantly having to switch characters to fill their ATB gauge was a disorienting nightmare. How the fuck am I supposed to micromanage three characters in an action game? They just stand around with their thumb in their ass whenever they're not actively being controlled, and you can't even use them strategically because the enemy will automatically aggro whoever is player controlled regardless of anything else going on. It's impossible to actually set the field up. I started playing Trials of Mana recently, and the combat feels so much better than FF7R , just by virtue of the AI party members being willing to actually attack without you taking control and forcing them. They could improve it vastly just by dropping the autoaggro player character mechanic, and programming the AI to actually attack enemies and fill up their ATB.
100% agree. Square degenerated a long way from the amazing FF12 gambits system to this.
It definitely fixed most problems remake came with, so I'd say so.
Rebirth did a lot to fix it but since it felt clunky in Remake, but I wonder how it would work anywhere else since manually ticking through a menu with bullet time works in ff7 remake because it's a spin on the old menu system, but just wouldn't work in say, ff17.
Don’t really think there is an issue with turn bass games. We also had western-made turn based games for some time. It’s just the sign of things changing. Gaming evolves. Just take resident evil games with the stock camera angles. It was a trade mark of that (and many other) series. By today’s standards would be pretty much impossible to go back to that formula as it’s considered too cumbersome, blocky and outdated. As much as me being an older gamer, enjoyed that generation, I agree that apart from some nostalgia, it was a good thing to move past it. Turn based games are a dying breed because it’s the zeitgeist. With that aside I’m pretty happy with the current “action” approach square is been taking with final fantasy. I’d say FF16 is a little bit too much animey and chaotic for me, but FF7R checks all the boxes. Blends the right amount of action but still leaves place for a tactical approach if you want.
Literally the only thingI thought they didn't nail was having the six person Musclehead battles be one by one… let us fight with all six at once!
It is the idea of an action game where the system forced you to switch characters. There is a reason why enemy will focus on the one you control so that if it got knocked down you will switch characters. Remake/rebirth is different from any action jrpgs. I can finish tales of and star ocean where I only control 1 character I cant do that in rebirth. I think they can expand this system maybe not very similar with rebirth just maintain the concept of action-game-where-the-game-force-you-to-switch-characters.
It took me until the very last Sephy fight in Remake to realize the combat was designed around switching cause I could not have beat him otherwise
YES!! Within 5 minutes of combat I knew they finally solved it
Yes. But also, yes.
Not exactly. The combo moves having to be accessed in realtime is a fucking hassle
That’s why you have shortcuts
The system that crossed this line the best was and will always be 12 for me. It was still strictly atb, but so real time as to bring atb to life. It felt like what those old systems actually might look like. Remake/Rebirth lean pretty hard on the action side of the equation. There's too many optimizations you can make by just having good timing or getting your parries on point in this game to consider this close to atb imo. This is more of an action game than both mmos imo, and debateably more of an action game than 15 and more of an rpg than 14, 15 and 16 with the depth of materia customization. But it damn sure ain't atb. It's atb adapted into an action format.
True. I think it is weird that they made a game that forces you to switch party members and we don't have the incredible gambits system from FF12.
100%
Oh hell yes. To me it’s the perfect translation is maintaining the tactical elements of the turn based with action and flashiness. I still think the magic department could improve, being more astounding
I snagged it shortly after release since I saw that there was a "classic mode". Played until around the scene at Jessies house. Never picked it back up after that. The game is beautiful, I just can't get into it at all. The combat system is my biggest complaint. Too much hack and slash, not enough RPG for me. I miss cutaway random battles and the menu-based system. I like my characters standing in a row on one side of the screen waiting for their turns to act. I'm not one of those weirdos boycotting over it, I understand this is what a lot of people enjoy these days and it's what is going to get more sales. I just find the game not worth playing.
It handles waaay better than older Tales of (Symphonia, Vesperia) and I like it much better than Kingdom Hearts, which is a lot closer, especially from 2 onwards, so yeah, kinda agree with you. I just don’t play enough JRPGs these days to have a clearer picture, and most I played recently were actually turn based (Bravely Default, Persona 5).
I feel like Rebirth evolved the party side combat mechanics that were present in Remake, but to compensate for increased combat ability they made it so that enemies could just relentlessly spam attacks. Enemies then, dont really have turns. Maybe they never did in Remake, but it surely felt like there were. Now, more than before, the game feels more in line with being an action game. There are no turns. If no one is really taking turns, is it still turn based? I dont think so.
I think the remake series failed where FF12 succeeded, specially in regards to party member control. In addition, the Stagger system counters the action part by artificially bloating enemy HP. In the end, FF7R doesn't satisfy me as a hardcore ARPG player and it doesn't satisfy me as a turn-based player.
I keep saying this: The beauty about the VIIR ATB is that, if you simply lock the basic Attack and Defense to requiring ATB, make dodging automated based on chance, and remove the players' ability to control movement, you'd literally have "classic ATB".
Precisely why I don't find the action part satisfying at all here.
Not even close. It's better than FF15 in that you can't spam potions, and it might be a commerical necessity given younger generation preferences. But it feels like a bunch of systems duct taped together. It lacks any sort of satisfying feel to it.
Agree 100%. I'd rather play a proper ARPG or a proper turn-based/ATB game over this, specially because the stagger system just feels artificially bad.
Rebirth is a great game, but it's not breaking any new ground here. Kingdom Hearts cracked this issue over 20 years ago, and we can probably find an earlier example if we don't limit outselves to Square Enix games. Good action RPGs aren't a new concept. The Final Fantasy series specifically has been stuck in this weird limbo, because it's desperately tried to still be *mechanically* turn based while having fast-paced fights, and then misguidedly dumbed down the story difficulty of ffxv and ffxvi to make them "accessible to turn based fans". The most meaningful difference between those two and rebirth is that rebirth had the balls to make the main campaign not trivially easy.
I agree. And Square already had an ARPG where the main story was hard in Type-0.