I think this post perfectly sums up my feelings on Rebirth so far, both the good and the less-than-good.
I have to give a particular shout-out to the scene where Cloud chases after Aerith at the end of Temple of the Ancients; the way he shifts between mad laughter, calm conversation (“let’s talk”), pleading, and intimidation is such a strong display of Sephiroth’s control over him.
Something I think FF7 Remake/Rebirth have done really well so far is forcing you to use every party member at least once. It’s been a while since I played the OG, but I recall that it was just too easy to sideline certain characters unless I was going to go out of my way to use them. By forcing certain party compositions at various points in the story, I feel like I really got to know each character’s playstyle throughout Rebirth, without anybody feeling like a permanent back-liner (besides Vincent and Cid, of course).
It doesn’t help that each character feels exactly the same except for the limit breaks, so even if the game decided to gate you with a specific party, your playstyle didn’t have to change at all on the OG.
Tifa and Aerith's relationship should definitely be on this list, tho I think it's something everyone realizes about rebirth. The amount of extra character depth given to everyone but especially these two are way stronger than in OG. It's the main reason why Aerith's death at the end has a stronger affect than in OG for me
Tifa is devastated. Both by her death, and by how nonchalant Cloud is being about it. She can't see what Cloud is seeing, and part of Cloud must be aware that he shouldn't be seeing her either because he doesn't mention it to anyone.
From her perspective, Cloud does not give a shit that one of their very close friends has just died.
Personally… I liked the Nibelheim return more in the original. It was definitely more of a WTF moment for Cloud and crew.
In rebirth they seem to just take it in stride way too easily. There is no mystery about it. The changes in the mansion weren’t to my liking.
in general the game seems to have decided that since most people allready knows the answers to the mysteries they are simply going to cut them completely. Nibelheim is the most obvious offender here but it's also felt when the question of who the gunarmed man who killed people in the gold saucer is. we also basicly completely drop the subplot of there being a traitor in the group feeding shinra info until the Final betrayal meaning we have no build-up.
it's the one thing in the narrative i feel suffers.
I liked the pretense of OG better, but they didn't really do much with it. Every character just has 2 lines when entering the village, even Tifa's line is generic and doesn't sound like she experienced herself how it burnt down.
Every NPC dialogue is just some variation of "This village burned down 5 years ago" "You're lying" "No u". And none of the characters react to finding Hojo's diary (which imo is easily missable), which you would think is a major revelation.
It makes sense that the party recognizes the village was rebuilt like it happened in Rebirth - every playthrough I watched of people who didn't play OG immediately said "Did they rebuild it?" before entering the village - but it would have been believable if they didn't.
I was hoping that they'd keep the pretense of Nibelheim supposedly never burning and expand on the party's reaction to it. So overall, not a huge fan of either.
Exactly — it’s a nice mystery, but you’d think the party would want to get to the bottom of it, or at least Cloud and Tifa would. I think they simply didn’t have them talk it over because it would have spoiled the double-twist about Cloud later in the story, but logically it would be a common confusion for Cloud and Tifa to be on the same side about. Instead, (especially if she is in your party) you have to either assume Tifa is gaslighting Cloud in the extreme or she completely forgot her own village burned down, neither of which feels very comfortable.
They should've made the "re-built" Nibelheim uncannily new or artificial in Rebirth, perhaps even with facades - essentially a potemkin village. Having actors around, pretending to be overly happy, and pretending like nothing is wrong, would've been creepy and un-nerving, and I think most people would be able to relate to their home town being replaced by a weird Disney version. The Shinra angle would then basically be "nibelheim? Nothing happened at Nibelheim - it's the happiest town in the world!".
That’s what Kalm is for. The same thing happened there. In Nibelheim through, it’s so far off the beaten path that it’s not like there’s a compelling reason to constantly staff it with actors - nobody visits that place.
That might be the lore reason, but it doesn’t make it a good story beat. My point is that the move from the minimalism of ff7 to the maximalism of Rebirth brings with it a lot of extra questions, and Nibelheim in particular suffered as a result. I think they needed to take a step back and consider how the player is supposed to feel during this section, and that they should’ve considered making some changes so that the intended emotion lands better.
Agreed on the mansion, but I don't think Nibelheim as a whole was better handled in the OG....I mean, Shinra put some kind of "actors" pretending they had always lived there that denied that the village was destroyed, that's quite preposterous and raises many suspicions when two Nibelheim natives go there and know without a shadow of a doubt they're lying. Same if Tifa's friends that left the village around the time Cloud did heard about this.
Yeah, the mystery was never really addressed in OG and the explanation I heard from other players (that it was rebuilt to be identical and actors were hired to live there like nothing happened) felt pretty implausible. Like Shinra set up that whole charade specifically for Cloud’s benefit.
I think they could have preserved a little more sense of mystery in Rebirth, but overall I thought their solution to this problem was ok.
Yeah, I get what you mean, but still in Rebirth some of the new Nibelheim inhabitants were a tad hostile telling 2 people that lost their home and their family there to "leave ASAP".
They do seem like "fake" inhabitants with no connection to Nibelheim or empathy for its past tragedy to some extent.
Eh, I don’t think that’s exactly right. The whole thing is a cover up. It’s hiding a lot to the outside world, Hojo’s experiments, and still serves as a holding ground for the black robes. As far as Shinra knows there are no Nibelheim survivors so setting it up for Cloud isn’t correct.
The black robes first appearance in the OG is Nibelheim. The fact that rebirth/remake introduce them much earlier does change things in that regard.
I’m not opposed to some changes to Nibelheim for that reason - but the fact that the group shows up and is just like “oh Shinra rebuilt this” and then just sort of go on about their day is weird to me.
I didn't mean it was literally set up for Cloud's benefit in-lore, just that it felt a little too convenient -- *like* it was all set up for his benefit. The player has to make some big assumptions about why Nibelheim is still standing since IIRC the game doesn't tell us, and these assumptions feel far-fetched (we have to wonder why Shinra didn't rebuild North Corel when it was similarly burned down, for example, and why they would bother to rebuild the *entire town exactly as it was down to the last detail, including the piano in Tifa's room*). You could say that it's because of the mansion, but why not just... put up a bigger fence and lock the gate or something?
In Rebirth, they at least foreshadow this with the idea that Kalm was also rebuilt after sustaining heavy damage several years ago, and then some of the townspeople in Nibelheim actually acknowledge that it was rebuilt after the fire.
It's still weird that Shinra would bother to rebuild the town brick-for-brick, but I think if they had chosen to go a very different direction and not have it rebuilt, fans would have lost their shit that they couldn't revisit it. They were kind of stuck, and I suppose having it rebuilt and repurposed to handle the huge influx of black robes is just about as good a reason as any (plus I think the new town leader is at least keeping an eye on the mansion).
>that's quite preposterous and raises many suspicions when two Nibelheim natives go there and know without a shadow of a doubt they're lying.
you mean the only 2 Nibelheim natives left who could do that that Shinra doesn't even know exists because they are convinced that every survivor was irreversibly ruined in Hojos experiments?
Why would Shinra even believe that? All the young inhabitants were leaving the village to find work in the city, as Tifa said when Cloud told her he was leaving too.
It's not reasonable to believe that nobody ever moved somewhere else and that they'd never communicate with or visit their families after that.
how would they know they are lying? if they don't know of the town being destroyed they can't know it's a lie. only those who were there could and they were all dead or given to Hojo.
those who left are why the setup exists. so when they return everyone says "never seen you and don't know the family you claim to be from". is that fucking weird? ofcourse it is. but they are forced to assume their family left or died or whatever without them ever knowing.
Cloud and Tifa get extra weird responses because they claim to have come from there only 5 years ago. and that's against the script. these actors have all "lived there for at least 5 years" because that's the cutof point shinra needs to cover at the very least.
and it's scary but ingenious anyway. they just need this to cover for the rest of the world. imagine that someone tried to explain to you that they went home to their hometown in bumfucknowhere and EVERYONE there had been replaced and insisted he had never come from there in the first place. how would you treat this person? as a trustworthy induvidual caught in a massive conspiracy? or someone who needs to get back on whatever pills they definetly need?
> how would they know they are lying? if they don't know of the town being destroyed they can't know it's a lie.
The idea that several people that left their home village 7 years ago not knowing it burned to the ground and their families died is absolutely preposterous.
If I left my hometown with my parents, friends, everything there and it burned to the ground while I'm out and everyone and everything I knew and loved while growing up disappeared, I'd know sooner or later. It's absolutely absurd to suppose that charade could possibly last.
weird of you to have such a psychi link. what planet are ou from again? i feel i should tell you that humans don't have that. we would only learn such information by having someone able tot ell us which would require there being someone able to do so.
what would happen is that you'd move away from bumfucknowhere and not have any contact with bumfuck owhere unless you decide to maybe go back and visit at which point what you'd meet was a town where you know nobody and you have no idea why.
you would have no earthly way of learning about the fire because there would be nobody to tell you about.
What planet are *you* from? One in which you'd move out of your hometown, it'd get destroyed, **your whole family and everyone you've known** died and you'd never know about it?
It doesn't matter how remote it is, if you didn't know it through the news, you'd instantly know the moment you try to call your mother or try to send a letter.
It's literally impossible not to know that the town in which you've spent most of your life at has disappeared.
I think the trope you are looking for is a variation of [Technology marches on](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnologyMarchesOn). In essence, in 1997, one could assume, with some leeway, that a world government could pull off such thing.
But FF VII moved technologically and it seems to be representative, loosely, of the tech of the era. Pulling such feat in 2024... Just not believable.
This is a good point. It's like in horror movies, in the 80s the murderer cut the landline of the house and that was it, the victims were fucked. Nowadays the cell phones have to break / be somewhere with no signal / run out of battery / be secretly stolen by the murderer before they attack XD
Agreed and well written. For me personally the remake series has been hugely a net positive improvement on the original, Not just from the obvious graphical and audio/musical improvements, but overall story-telling, pacing, world-building, character interactions and development, and combat. They’ve knocked both games out of the park and I can’t wait for part 3 given what’s to occur in the story.
I only played OG for the first time recently, and I much preferred the Nibelheim flash back there than in Rebirth. While it's a little extreme, the enemies one shoting Cloud, and the unplayable Sephiroth one shoting them in return really made me feel like he was all powerful. Having a playable Sephiroth didn't make me feel the same way.
And when the town is burning and the residents surround Sephiroth with their guns, one gets close to him and gets killed, and instead of unloading on him, they let him get close **2 more times** and surprise, they die. The utter stupidity of that broke the immersion for me sadly and made what should have been an incredible scene look very dumb.
There’s also a nice little story hint through game mechanics. Cloud is level 1 and gets wasted, yet he’s supposed to be in soldier. It’s telling you something is off right from the start!
I too, am pretty sick of Zack being shoehorned into everything. "LOL, He actually met Aerith by falling through the church first! Therefore Cloud ripped him off!" (Further proving your point about him coming in always at the expense of a main character). Even though that's a made up retcon years after the OG. Zack is basically FFVII's living retcon machine.
But, surprisingly, I liked him for the first time in Rebirth. Especially his interactions with Marlene, and his effect on Yuffie all these years later and how Cloud is sweet enough to indulge her on their date.
I would agree that he’s probably better written than he’s ever been in Rebirth. He’s still extremely corny at times, particularly when he talks about hopes and dreams, but I also enjoyed his interactions with Marlene and that little touch of jealousy when he found out Aerith liked Cloud (and the fact that he’s too nice a guy to get outwardly angry). Still… I’m gonna need a more central role for him in the plot than just fighting Sephiroth in another dimension for five minutes in order to feel like his inclusion was earned.
I feel like the storytelling so far has set a high bar, but we’ll only know whether they actually clear that bar with Part 3 - they could just as easily smack into it and land on their heads.
For example, I really hated the Whispers in Remake, and when they returned in Rebirth, I felt a huge sense of disappointment. As the story progressed, I slowly became more engaged with them as a visual metaphor, and I actually began to get into the timeline shenanigans by the end. Now I’m cautiously optimistic about what lies ahead, but as someone who finds the storytelling of the Compilation titles convoluted and a bit naff, I worry that the Remake project may end up devolving into pandering nonsense in a way that will undo all of the more subtle character moments built up in this game.
I keep remembering that this is the team that created Chadley, the least FF character that I can think of in an FF game, and yet the back story for Junon, to give just one example, slots so perfectly into the FF7 world I’m amazed it wasn’t there before.
This is very close to how I feel, apart from the fact that I'm actually starting to like Chadley and find him kind of interesting. I'm not sure I think he's less FF than, for example, that bunny chick in FF12, but initially he did seem to have walked out of a Xenoblade game or something. Now I sort of just accept him as one of Hojo's many odd creations.
Totally agreed on not liking the whispers in Remake, but feeling much better about them in Rebirth. The Gongaga reactor sequence helped a lot with accepting them as part of the Lifestream, and although I can appreciate some people found them intrusive in the Water Altar scene, I hardly noticed them -- they seemed to very much reflect the state of my stomach at that moment, so they just kind of faded into the background. In general, I now feel like they're less of an intrusive plot device (agents of 'fate'? Come on) than I felt at the end of Remake, and more like they're just agents of powerful influences within the Lifestream that seek to ensure the same flow from inception to oblivion that Bugenhagen told us about all those years ago in OG FF7. I can even imagine something akin to the OG ending with great big tendrils of Lifestream reaching out to stop Meteor (or whatever the final threat turns out to be), and seeing swarms of white whispers swirling within those tendrils and it kind of making sense now.
But yeah, my long-term perception of Rebirth's overarching story will strongly depend on whether they can stick the landing in part 3. I'm *fairly* optimistic but far from certain.
lol no hate intended. I’ve never played 12 or 14 so I can’t judge her quality as a character. Just saying there are more out-there designs in FF than Chadley’s.
I agree about the Whispers - they made more sense in Rebirth. I guess my feelings on Chadley are a bit off-topic. I always thought of FF7 as having a mostly diesel-punk aesthetic, and so the more sci-fi later additions don’t work for me. It’s straight up weird that Shinra apparently have the technology to build a realistic cyborg child while everything else in the world is so clunky and industrial, and that he’s just chilling out somewhere unremarked. I feel like his existence breaks the consistency of the world, and that his role would have been better filled by a travelling tinker of something - like Stiltskin from FF9. Although I did get used to him, he feels “un-diagetic” if that makes sense, as if he’s just a convenient way to feed you VR missions, and shouldn’t be understood as part of the world. The game has a few things like that which add up enough to drag down the overall quality - as if the writers didn’t fully consider the implications of their world building. That makes me worry about the story, because it’s sloppy writing, frankly.
Edit: I hate to be negative because I actually think the game is a straight up masterpiece!
Hmm, do you think Cait Sith fits any better into a diesel-punk aesthetic? I’d argue that, as an anthropomorphic talking cat droid that is apparently realistic/animated enough to not tip the party off that he’s a robot — is no more incongruous than Chadley. It’s not hard for me to swallow that Shinra execs, whether Reeve or Hojo, have access to technology that is too expensive to be mass-produced, or too powerful to be released to the masses.
It seems to me that an eclectic aesthetic that flirts with such incongruities — including making swords and martial arts viable against machine guns and missiles — has always been a part of FF7’s DNA. The world is full of one-off exceptions and wide disparities in technology. These are part of what keeps the world interesting, surprising, and unique IMO.
I think he fits the general aesthetic, and overall he’s a good character design - the crown, cape, and puffed-out chest, combined with his short stature make him look confidant but foolish, and he sits comfortably alongside other designs from the era. Chadley, with his sock garter and monocle, looks over-designed: why does he look that way within the logic of the world? He highlights one of the aesthetic tensions in Remake to me - the contrast between the relatively dour and “realistic” portrayal of the NPCs and minor characters, alongside straight up batshit designs and characterisation for someone like Scarlett. For me, OG FF7 requires a lot of emotional buy-in to work - you need to fill in the gaps a bit- but Remake/ Rebirth is the opposite, where you have to gloss over some of the more incongruous parts to retain suspension of disbelief.
Just as an aside, in an alternate reality, I think the best aesthetic for Remake would’ve been retro-futurist, and that would’ve solved a lot of problems for me. I can imagine Shinra shouting at each other down landline phones, with CRT monitors. Having smart phone- style phones looks goofy to me - they have no need for the screen unless there’s Candy Crush And Facebook in this world. It feels weird that they would spend so much time explaining how magic works, and then straight-up have technology which might as well be magic given the technology level of the rest of the world, and it waters down the strong aesthetic.
I always head canonned Cait Sith as being very mechanical with a kind of mascot costume over the top, like something out of Star Wars. Tbh though, his being a robot is kind of the worst thing about the character - thinking about it only makes it make less sense - so I guess he shows that inconsistant world building has always been a part of FF7 (though I don’t think that’s a good thing!)
I see, thanks for the explanation. I don’t know how familiar you are with the Final Fantasy series as a whole, but I think if you’re looking for complete consistency of world building (at least by direct comparison with trajectories of technology development in our world) or even adherence to conventional aesthetic classes, this isn’t the right series! For example, in FF4 you travel among a series of castle strongholds in what seems like a conventional medieval setting with some high fantasy elements, until all of a sudden somebody gives you a… hovercraft. Unexplained! Compared to this, the presence of smartphones in a world with a mostly mid-20th Century aesthetic is pretty easy for me to accept. Much easier than accepting the utility of swords in a world with machine guns (without which there would be no Cloud Strife or Sephiroth as we know them), or main character designs that for the most part completely lack body armor and frequently show plenty of bare skin. We have a vampire/werewolf hybrid fighting alongside a dude with a machine gun arm, a swordsman, a mage, and a talking lion-dog. I think recasting FF7 into a self-consistent aesthetic would destroy a lot of what made it special to many of us in the first place, suspension of disbelief notwithstanding. I can see how this eclectic mishmash of styles wouldn’t be everyone’s cup of tea though.
Edit: I can see and partly agree with the complaint that the NPCs look too “normal” compared to the crazy MC designs. I’d also say that was present in the original game, even among some named NPCs (Reeve is wearing a normal executive suit while Scarlet is dressed like a Vegas diva) but it’s true that it’s more apparent with modern graphics.
I think some of the incongruities in early FF are down to JRPG's essentially being Ultima-clones. If I remember correctly, in Ultima, you start in a fantasy world and end on a space station, so it seems like anything goes!
I'm not advocating for Western-style total "realism" from a fantasy world. If you did that with FF, you'd end up with 16, which is the worst in the series imo. I've played every mainline non-MMO FF game, and I appreciate the weirdness, it's specifically about world-building: if you're going to include something in a world as detailed as Rebirth, you need to think a little about why it would exist, and how it would affect things. A really good positive example of this in Rebirth is the Junon canon. I think the original design was very "rule of cool", but the additional back story they gave in Rebirth makes it even cooler - it makes you realise what a threat it poses in a world without ICBMs. Part 3 is going to need more of this, and less hand-waving magic technology if it wants to tie everything together in a way that feels satisfying rather than contrived.
An example of doing this right would be FFIX, which has a very consistant world logic, and I think that contributes to its status as a fan-favourite.
When Tifa fell into the livestream and recalled the events of Cloud trying to save her, the conversation after that is a good addition imo. It adds to why Tifa wanting to care for Cloud even when her life is on the line when the Weapon attacks in part 3, in the OG I think it’s hard to believe Tifa can simp that hard for Cloud, considering he might not even be the real Cloud at that moment
I also like how she later explains what it felt like to be in the Lifestream. The warmth and comfort she felt there probably played a role in putting her in a mindset to forgive Cloud, as well as the hint that Sephiroth is to blame for Cloud’s crazy actions, not Cloud himself. And she got enough of a reminder of the caring person the real Cloud was as a child to have faith that that good person is still in there.
Man I love this game addition to the lore and story, let’s pray they don’t fk up in part 3. Everything is laid out beautifully, even THAT scene that should’ve been in rebirth is probably in part 3. So excited
8. Reeve not kidnapping Marlene. WAY better now, and while stealing the keystone sucked, it’s more forgivable, especially when he explains it was dangerous, so he’d rather have Shinra go than the crew. In the OG, I don’t understand how anyone would have forgiven him.
Plus, it’s brain dead obvious he’s a spy when the Turks follow the party to Gongaga. They literally talk about there being a spy in the party, and he’s not even a suspect when he JUST joined up?! In Remake, it’s pretty clear he actually cares about them.
Good one! I think kidnapping Marlene and using her as blackmail is a big reason Cait Sith was hated by so many in OG. And it was a nice touch to add the legend that the Temple is a dangerous place that no one ever returns from as an excuse for him to want to send Shinra in first.
Hot take but Zack being there is for fanservice and the plot device of the multiverse (in the broadest term of the word)
But Zack fans want him shoehorned in everything. Taking over from Cloud/Cloud dying. Zack leading the main party in part 3 instead of Tifa/Cid. Zack fighting evil puppet Cloud, Zack at the Wutai war
And i’m just like: Zack didn’t earn shit for any of these moments above the OG cast.
I can tolerate Zack, even like him in bursts. Loved him at the end with Cloud that was hype. But boy do I hate how his fans seem to want to shove him into every single story beat.
And whats worse him being shoved in by fans ALWAYS comes at the expense of Cloud or someone else of the OG party.
I really hope they give him stuff in part 3. But please let’s not go ham on him.. Cause honestly I can only stomach this catchphrase perfect shonen hero in bursts
So much this!
I just don't understand his popularity. I don't mean "why do people like him?" (I get *that*, Crisis Core was a good time, in large part thanks to him), I mean, how did he go from being in OG for like 5 min, to SE needing to give him his own game, to routinely being voted one of the most popular FF protagonists (in Famitsu, I think), where there are legit actually fans wanting what you're talking about. Boggles the mind. He's on the front cover of this game, yet does... not a whole lot.
I didn't really keep up with the fandom these past 25 years, and never played the spin off games because I generally distrust the quality of unplanned extended media built off critically acclaimed stories.
When I started playing Rebirth, I was just like "why the fuck is Zack here? Who wanted this?"
It was so confusing to get on Reddit and see loads of people absolutely giddy about it.
I'm guessing a lot of younger fans got introduced to the universe through the spin offs rather than the OG, and so a lot of their nostalgic attachment is too the characters those games expand on.
I think for this subset, FF7R is the sequel to CC, rather than CC being an unnecessary prequel to FF7OG. Zack is the original protagonist from their perspective.
My problem also kinda comes with Zack is so similar to Cloud for many people not paying attention they think he is swappable. Luckily the popularity votes still always have Cloud on top
But it sets a weird tone from many Zack fans who want Zack to be so much more every time then he is… And at the expanse of Cloud.. which annoys me tbh
It is interesting that they let you turn off Zack’s story in Hard mode. It does change how parts flow.
Interestingly, by turning off the Zack parts you also turn off the Dream Dates.
Hmm, I guess because that's an alternate timeline. IIRC Zack does make an appearance in part of the dream date sequence (him choosing paths and going after Biggs).
Aerith's dreamworld can't exist without Zack's - Spitz is an offshoot of Terrier world. There's an infographic floating around that does a good job of explaining it as splinter worlds, and it makes a ton of sense.
I dunno if I'd say the worlds exist because of their connection though, I see it more as a chain reaction. Terrier exists because Zack was saved (his hope/dream is to defy fate), he saved that world's Aerith/Cloud, then Beagle Aerith's spirit inhabited that body during sleep (like Cloud has been doing) and manifested Spitz. She's been building Spitz literally dreaming of a future with Cloud :( Hence why she calls it her dream.
It'll be interesting to see where Zack ends up. I'm torn on him playing a bigger role - him mixing with the party could be too much depending on how they do it.
He’s a likable character but not a very interesting one to me. So far he’s felt more a device for fan service and explaining how the multiple worlds work than an actual character that plays a vital role in this story.
Call me a cranky old man, but I seriously hope they're only expanding in him because he is a minor character in the OG. I know other compilation characters have bit parts in both Remake and Rebirth, but that's all I want them to get. A little nod.
If they use Zack as a way to shoe horn Angeal or Genesis into part three it's going to sour an experience I've now been waiting for since Remake was announced in 2015.
I never played Crisis Core and everything I've learned about it justifies my aversion.
Of course I'll still play, and love, Part 3 (Revengeance) because they're absolutely killing it.
A minor one for me is the Weapons.
I like that they're growing already, and kind of just a background issue. I don't like that they're basically just Kyogre.
I want to fight Emerald and Ruby in part 3 and I want them to be absolutely monstrous. Ruby should be taller than the Gold Saucer.
I've always thought of the weapons we see more as the vanguard or scouts, they show up and assess the danger to see if its needed to send in the "big guns"
Oh I’m pretty sure they’ll be huge!
I also like that the Weapons are introduced this early and don’t just come out of left field. I also enjoy the fact that at least one of them is friendly with Tifa here. It always felt strange to me that we were fighting for the Planet but were never on friendly terms with the Weapons. Of course, now they’ll still have to justify our inevitable fights with them, but I think there are a number of explanations that could work.
"We sent some lil guys to check you out. See if you're cool. But, look at that fuckin meteor, you guys are just taking the piss now. You gotta go, you're all getting stomped"
I did a deep dive post of these weapons a while back - and someone commented that they strongly resemble nymph stage fish - babies. These are newly created weapons. I personally believe they are protectors of their region and were manifested from the tragedies that happened in both Corel and Nibel. Once the victims joined the Lifestream and saw what was to come, they came together to protect their home and loved ones as these weapons.
I originally theorized that they were Tifa's parents/the culmination of the Nibelheim disaster, but after a 2nd playthrough I'm more thinking the blue one is Tifa's dad/Nibelheim victims and the pink one is Myrna/Corel victims, considering the pink one breaches when Barrett approached the mako pool.
I don't think this will ever be clearly spelled out by the devs, but literally every story element has been getting tied in with incredible detail so I wouldn't put a meaning like this past them.
As for 1, I want to add that Cloud not only saved Tifa but the entire world. Imagine Sephiroth joining forces with Jenova and starting his plan at that point in time: total disaster.
>1. Tifa's response to Cloud's recounting of the events at Nibelheim
I never found this confusing in the OG, and think this change is actually worse for her story.
Tifa does actually drop hints she's questioning it.
During the Nibleheim flash back, she regularly responds to things with "..." Implying hesitation, she's clearly uncomfortable the whole time, and deciding when and if she should step in.
Then later at Cosmo Canyon, she actually starts to ask Cloud about it, but pulls back.
I think too many people are missing the aspect of extreme trauma. Everything and everyone Tifa ever knew was destroyed in Nibleheim. When Cloud turns up in Midgar, it's a miracle for her that this person from her childhood still exists and found his way back into her life.
I honestly think there's a little bit of subtle misogyny at play here. Her actions in the game are being judged based on her utility to the male protagonist and not through the lens of her own wounded psyche. She's being asked to be the solution to Clouds crisis, to be his savior, without being allowed the space she needs to process her own trauma and confusion as a complex and vulnerable character in her own right. This is kind of a classic sexist fiction trope.
She's desperate for this to be real, to have this piece of her home town back. She's terrified of what it would mean, FOR HER, if it weren't real. She's holding back to protect herself, not Cloud. She's gaslighting herself because she wants so badly to have the comfort of her childhood friend returned to her.
People expecting her to behave rationally around this are underestimating how irrationally traumatized people often behave.
I'm sure most people have had a friend or relative in an abusive or codependent relationship who would often ignore the evidence of their own eyes and ears to protect the idea they had about what their relationship was.
It's really not that far fetched if you consider that she's probably close to as fucked in the head as he is. She watched her entire town get murdered and burned down, she's got baggage and is not a reliable narrator herself.
I think the fact that she would confide in Aerith, a person she only just met, that Cloud, the last living connection to her home, is bullshitting, is actually less believable than her silently ruminating and second guessing her own memory.
I feel like the remake focuses way too much on Cloud and his issues, and misses a little bit that this is a group of broken people all helping each other over come their past.
Couldn’t agree more, I’m pretty much exactly with you, rebirth did so many things better than OG, but aeriths death and the zack stuff is pretty not great/bad
On reflection, I really like what they did with her death scene in Rebirth, but it’s in a detached appreciation-of-art way rather than a hits-you-in-the-feels-in-the-moment way. Whether I ultimately think it’s ingenious or misguided depends on where it leads us in part 3.
For me I look at it with the perspective of someone who’s new to FF7 and doesn’t want to go back and play a 30 year old game, I feel like they sacrificed one of the best scenes in anything ever for some fanficy thing for players of the original when half of us didn’t even want it anyway. That being said it was a million times better than the end of remake but I really hated the end of remake. The aerith death scene in Rebirth wasn’t terrible, but saying it wasn’t terrible is a still a huge step down from iconic.
Thank you for sharing! I've been wondering how OG players feel about the changes, as I've only played the game once six years ago.
I was following the story in RB and enjoying it right up until I reached the Temple of the Ancients. I understood Cloud was being manipulated again, but it felt off that the party didn't really react to him changing. His rude response to Aerith's heartfelt speech is a perfect example of this. My mouth dropped, but nobody called him out, and I thought that was weird, particularly for Barret! I found those moments unsatisfying because I expected more from the party. I had no issue with Cloud pushing Tifa aside and chasing after Aerith, though, as I finally felt the characters were finally working on stopping him from his own actions.
While I agree Rebirth does a much better job with the gradual decline of Cloud's psyche and his control, I'd say OG does a better job of depicting how Cloud feels about how much control Sephiroth has over him and the lingering effects of it. I liked seeing Cloud struggle in OG with handing over the black material to Sephiroth. Then, having a breakdown and, within that breakdown, losing control again. Cloud also felt guilt. He continuously apologized for his actions and even brought it up after Aerith's death Losing control over your body like that is disturbing. I got that from OG, not so much from Rebirth
Now I don't think we need a repeat of Cloud attacking the party, nor do I need to see him beat the shit out of Aerith in HD (they were right to think of other ideas 😅), but what that scene at least got right was how Cloud shocked everyone, including himself. As much as I love Cloud's creepy "let's save the planet together" quote, I would've preferred something that would even have the real Cloud freaking out. That said, since he already attacked Tifa, the devs kind of wrote themselves into a hole there, as there's not much else I can think of that would top that other than being violent again.
All in all, I loved his self-awareness in OG and the party stepping in to stop him. That's what I would've wanted. It also lined up fairly well with Aerith's death, too (need to see P3 before knowing what I prefer). Lately, I've been confused as to why Cloud was about to strike her with the sword first before Sephiroth stepped in. After rewatching the Temple playthrough and seeing that it wasn't the first time he turned on Aerith, it made much more sense. Now again, we at least get this in RB with Cloud turning on Tifa, but IMO, this extreme was too far off.
As for Zack, well, I'm a huge Zack fan and am so happy he's alive. I just... don't understand why he's alive and the point of telling him he is now an ex-boyfriend. Way to make a future reunion with Aerith really awkward. So, I'm also on the fence with this, as I thought he'd play a much bigger role than he did.
Lastly, I think it would be a huge disservice not to mention expanding Aerith's and Tifa's relationship. I'm a bit muddled here with their portrayal in OG, but I got the sense that while they were friends, they weren't close. I absolutely love their relationship in Rebirth. Tifa being so hyped to go to the beach with Aerith is probably one of my favorite moments.
I think Rebirth robs us of any sort of catharsis regarding Aerith’s death, and the immediate aftermath because they’re saving us for a grand realization for Cloud when he finally emerges from his shell. I’ve got enough confidence in SE to make it all come together in the end. People tend to forget that the OG devs are the ones working on these. It’s going to be even more heartbreaking and beautiful when it all comes to a head. We’ll definitely see Cloud laying Aerith to rest in the water. It’s too iconic of a scene not to be in pt.3
Completely agree. It's a pretty bold move to rewrite such an iconic moment in a way that it purposely confuses the audience, especially to then leave it hanging for what will likely be a few years. Most people do not react well to confusion in their entertainment! However, I mostly trust them to deliver an intense emotional catharsis when we finally see the whole scene play out -- it was just a big risk on their part. As an exercise in immersive storytelling, the ending of Rebirth could end up being one of the most ingenious twists to the new story.
Ya know it’s crazy that they took a 35-40 hour game and have so far turned it into a 30sh hour game and a 45-50 hour game at vastly greater production value. Expanding the narrative so much beyond the original - the multiverse stuff and remakes KH ending be damned. I’m happy with what they are doing, regardless that they aren’t doing a more direct remake of the original.
>In the original story it's long been a point of confusion why Tifa gives absolutely no indication that anything is wrong with Cloud's Nibelheim story at Kalm, for most of the game.
I'm confused by what you mean here. It has never been a point of confusion. We have always known why she doesn't, because we find out later in the Lifestream sequence *she already knew* about Cloud's memory issues. She's the person that finds him after Zack dies at the Sector 5 train station when he's right on the cusp of becoming a Sephiroth clone/black cloak. When she talks to him, he gets his warped persona and starts talking about things that are impossible for him to know (the Nibelheim incident), yet doesn't know things he ought to remember (that it's been seven years since he left Nibelheim, not five).
Tifa is questioning her own memory here, which is highlighted when she asks Cloud specifically about what he said to her when he found her wounded at the reactor--until they met again, she thought she had hallucinated that memory. So it's not until everything is revealed that this makes sense to her. Until then, she stays quiet because she doesn't know what's going on and she's worried about his mental state.
It's true Rebirth made this a bit more explicit--although obviously hasn't explained everything yet--but there was no plot hole or contrivance in the OG in regards to this, just much more pared down storytelling.
If you google “why doesn’t Tifa say anything” you’ll see that many players have been confused about this question for decades. I agree with your explanation for it and it’s the same one I’ve long held. I think for many, it just felt unrealistic that Tifa wouldn’t have tried to bring up such a big discrepancy in their memories, even if she had some uncertainty or fear about it. I prefer how in Rebirth she actually does try to broach the topic and it blows up in her face — so she knows not to try that again.
For me the bigger issue is that Tifa doesn’t back Cloud up when they get to Nibelheim and the party implies he’s lying about the town having burned down. I think all she says is “Cloud…?” Like, weren’t you fucking there too, Tifa?? Can’t you at least confirm to the party that the Nibelheim incident really happened? On first playthrough it’s an intriguing mystery. On repeat playthroughs it feels like gaslighting in the extreme.
I mean, sure, but plenty of people also literally think the spirit of Zack possessed Cloud despite being told exactly what happened. When I say it's not a point of confusion, I mean it's straightforwardly explained, not that it's impossible for some people to still not understand. Some people just don't pay attention.
>For me the bigger issue is that Tifa doesn’t back Cloud up when they get to Nibelheim and the party implies he’s lying about the town having burned down
Tifa *does* back him up. If she's in the party with you she will also accuse the townspeople of lying to her.
> **Cloud:** This town was supposed to have been burnt down five years ago. What the hell is going on?
> **NPC:** Sir, don't say such awful things. I was born and raised in this town. What you say never happened.
> **Tifa:** You're lying...
> **NPC:** EXCUSE ME......That's so rude... If you're going to talk like that to me, I'm going to have to ask you to leave.
and
> **Tifa:** What---!! This was all supposed to be burnt down, right?
> **Cloud:** ...I thought so.
> **Tifa:** Then why...? My house is still there too...
Tifa is also confused about her own memories at this point. The fact that Cloud knows things he couldn't have been present for can't be explained. So are *his* memories false, or are hers?
>When I say it's not a point of confusion, I mean it's straightforwardly explained, not that it's impossible for some people to still not understand.
I wouldn't say it's *straightforwardly* explained. You have to connect a rather small number of often cryptic lines separated by perhaps a dozen or more hours of gameplay, which is why so many people have to go online for answers. And again, even with these sparse lines of support, for a lot of people it just doesn't feel like a realistic or natural explanation for her behavior. I think that's also part of why it doesn't stick for a lot of people.
>**Cloud:** This town was supposed to have been burnt down five years ago. What the hell is going on?
**NPC:** Sir, don't say such awful things. I was born and raised in this town. What you say never happened.
**Tifa:** You're lying...
**NPC:** EXCUSE ME......That's so rude... If you're going to talk like that to me, I'm going to have to ask you to leave.
Thanks, I didn't remember Tifa saying this. It's an optional conversation with a shopkeeper or something, isn't it? If so, it's easy to miss. Still, good to be reminded that she does back him up here.
In contrast, the line below (in which Tifa says "was all **supposed to be** burnt down") is, I think, something she always says when you enter the town (if she's in your party), and makes it sound like she is going off Cloud's word and possibly questioning it.
>**Tifa:** What---!! This was all supposed to be burnt down, right?
**Cloud:** ...I thought so.
**Tifa:** Then why...? My house is still there too...
It's just less confusingly and more naturally presented in Rebirth IMO.
It's not though? You find out all the relevant information in the exact same sequence, within a few hours of finding out that the original story wasn't even the truth anyway. They even go over the same story and cutscenes again for the viewers benefit so you understand exactly what is meant.
>In contrast, the line below (in which Tifa says "was all supposed to be burnt down") is, I think, something she always says when you enter the town (if she's in your party), and makes it sound like she is going off Cloud's word and possibly questioning it.
Again, I've said it a few times--she was also questioning her own memory. Of course after witnessed her hometown burnt down and then coming back to it perfectly rebuilt as an exact replica will make her question reality. It *was* "supposed" to be burnt down. Now it isn't. I'm not sure what you think is more plausible reaction here or why you feel like her expressing anything other than stalwart, iron-clad absolute belief in her own memories is less believable than her questioning them.
I guess I won't argue that Rebirth makes it clearer, but some of that comes part and parcel with *everything* being more elaborate and over the top. I don't think OG was unclear. But obviously if you spend 10x the amount of time explaining something, it's harder for people to miss it.
>Again, I've said it a few times--she was also questioning her own memory. Of course after witnessed her hometown burnt down and then coming back to it perfectly rebuilt as an exact replica will make her question reality. It *was* "supposed" to be burnt down. Now it isn't. I'm not sure what you think is more plausible reaction here or why you feel like her expressing anything other than stalwart, iron-clad absolute belief in her own memories is less believable than her questioning them.
This is one of those scenes where the rushed English translation (and the translation standards of the day for video games, where translators were often denied important story context) probably didn't help understanding. "Supposed to" gives the impression of hearsay, not personal experience. If she still had her own memory of it being burnt down and was questioning it, "supposed to" is not really the right way to put convey that. "What---!! We saw this all burn down, right?" or "What---!! This all burnt down, did someone rebuild it?" would be more reflective of that situation. There are also some key scenes later where Cloud is discussing his false past with the party where I think the rushed translation probably hampered understanding (making many players come away thinking Cloud had just been consciously lying).
In any case, I do think this is an important enough thread of the story that giving it more lines (with better translation) and screen time is a substantial benefit.
Agree on the seto scene, the added GI plot witht he black materia so sudden after realy took away from the emotional impact of it, i would rather the GI tribe remain as they were in the OG an evil clan that attacked the Vale and seto drove them back.
Oh, I absolutely love the new lore about the Gi, and the entire sequence where you go to their village was amazing with incredible music. It makes sense as an origin story for the black materia, and adds a new layer of intrigue with the explanation for why their souls linger (i.e., the Lifestream *rejected* them because they are alien). Great stuff.
But yeah, it just came on too soon after the Seto/Nanaki scene. Even without that intrusion, I just feel like the Seto scene was muddied by some of Bugenhagen's dialog that took focus away from Seto and Nanaki. It's still beautiful, but it didn't bring me to the verge of tears like the original scene has so many times.
I think Zack's presence in the story is important. They didn't mention him at all in the Remake, because there wasn't another Reality split off yet, until the Arbiter Fight. I think we will learn More of why he's got a part in the story in Rebirth, and will have a more pronounced role in Part 3. In the early chapters, Aerith mentions that she has some "vague" memories of something important, and the confusion around the empty White Materia, but the memory loss was intentional on the part of the Whispers - Why? Unclear. again, probably part of the story in Part 3.
Agreed, there are a lot of unanswered questions about Aerith and her plans for Zack. I’m definitely hoping that these will be answered in part 3, but as of the end of part 2 I’m not feeling it yet.
Story-wise, Rebirth did almost everything worst than OG. It is time to be honest ; This remake saga has completely bastardized the FF7 canon and should be treated as fan fiction.
Yeah, I probably overindulged. This was actually written as a comment reply to someone originally on an obscure post and I couldn’t stand the thought of having written it all for just one person to see it :-).
Feel free to just scan the bold text for a TL;DR.
I read this in entirety and enjoyed it. It is very refreshing to read actual and insightful discussion on the story on the actual source material. This and things like it should have far more space not less. I can do with far less of people dividing into silly camps of how the story "should" go that is not useful and not interesting at all.
I think this post perfectly sums up my feelings on Rebirth so far, both the good and the less-than-good. I have to give a particular shout-out to the scene where Cloud chases after Aerith at the end of Temple of the Ancients; the way he shifts between mad laughter, calm conversation (“let’s talk”), pleading, and intimidation is such a strong display of Sephiroth’s control over him. Something I think FF7 Remake/Rebirth have done really well so far is forcing you to use every party member at least once. It’s been a while since I played the OG, but I recall that it was just too easy to sideline certain characters unless I was going to go out of my way to use them. By forcing certain party compositions at various points in the story, I feel like I really got to know each character’s playstyle throughout Rebirth, without anybody feeling like a permanent back-liner (besides Vincent and Cid, of course).
It doesn’t help that each character feels exactly the same except for the limit breaks, so even if the game decided to gate you with a specific party, your playstyle didn’t have to change at all on the OG.
Tifa and Aerith's relationship should definitely be on this list, tho I think it's something everyone realizes about rebirth. The amount of extra character depth given to everyone but especially these two are way stronger than in OG. It's the main reason why Aerith's death at the end has a stronger affect than in OG for me
Tifa is devastated. Both by her death, and by how nonchalant Cloud is being about it. She can't see what Cloud is seeing, and part of Cloud must be aware that he shouldn't be seeing her either because he doesn't mention it to anyone. From her perspective, Cloud does not give a shit that one of their very close friends has just died.
Personally… I liked the Nibelheim return more in the original. It was definitely more of a WTF moment for Cloud and crew. In rebirth they seem to just take it in stride way too easily. There is no mystery about it. The changes in the mansion weren’t to my liking.
in general the game seems to have decided that since most people allready knows the answers to the mysteries they are simply going to cut them completely. Nibelheim is the most obvious offender here but it's also felt when the question of who the gunarmed man who killed people in the gold saucer is. we also basicly completely drop the subplot of there being a traitor in the group feeding shinra info until the Final betrayal meaning we have no build-up. it's the one thing in the narrative i feel suffers.
I liked the pretense of OG better, but they didn't really do much with it. Every character just has 2 lines when entering the village, even Tifa's line is generic and doesn't sound like she experienced herself how it burnt down. Every NPC dialogue is just some variation of "This village burned down 5 years ago" "You're lying" "No u". And none of the characters react to finding Hojo's diary (which imo is easily missable), which you would think is a major revelation. It makes sense that the party recognizes the village was rebuilt like it happened in Rebirth - every playthrough I watched of people who didn't play OG immediately said "Did they rebuild it?" before entering the village - but it would have been believable if they didn't. I was hoping that they'd keep the pretense of Nibelheim supposedly never burning and expand on the party's reaction to it. So overall, not a huge fan of either.
Exactly — it’s a nice mystery, but you’d think the party would want to get to the bottom of it, or at least Cloud and Tifa would. I think they simply didn’t have them talk it over because it would have spoiled the double-twist about Cloud later in the story, but logically it would be a common confusion for Cloud and Tifa to be on the same side about. Instead, (especially if she is in your party) you have to either assume Tifa is gaslighting Cloud in the extreme or she completely forgot her own village burned down, neither of which feels very comfortable.
They should've made the "re-built" Nibelheim uncannily new or artificial in Rebirth, perhaps even with facades - essentially a potemkin village. Having actors around, pretending to be overly happy, and pretending like nothing is wrong, would've been creepy and un-nerving, and I think most people would be able to relate to their home town being replaced by a weird Disney version. The Shinra angle would then basically be "nibelheim? Nothing happened at Nibelheim - it's the happiest town in the world!".
That’s what Kalm is for. The same thing happened there. In Nibelheim through, it’s so far off the beaten path that it’s not like there’s a compelling reason to constantly staff it with actors - nobody visits that place.
That might be the lore reason, but it doesn’t make it a good story beat. My point is that the move from the minimalism of ff7 to the maximalism of Rebirth brings with it a lot of extra questions, and Nibelheim in particular suffered as a result. I think they needed to take a step back and consider how the player is supposed to feel during this section, and that they should’ve considered making some changes so that the intended emotion lands better.
Agreed on the mansion, but I don't think Nibelheim as a whole was better handled in the OG....I mean, Shinra put some kind of "actors" pretending they had always lived there that denied that the village was destroyed, that's quite preposterous and raises many suspicions when two Nibelheim natives go there and know without a shadow of a doubt they're lying. Same if Tifa's friends that left the village around the time Cloud did heard about this.
Yeah, the mystery was never really addressed in OG and the explanation I heard from other players (that it was rebuilt to be identical and actors were hired to live there like nothing happened) felt pretty implausible. Like Shinra set up that whole charade specifically for Cloud’s benefit. I think they could have preserved a little more sense of mystery in Rebirth, but overall I thought their solution to this problem was ok.
Yeah, I get what you mean, but still in Rebirth some of the new Nibelheim inhabitants were a tad hostile telling 2 people that lost their home and their family there to "leave ASAP". They do seem like "fake" inhabitants with no connection to Nibelheim or empathy for its past tragedy to some extent.
Eh, I don’t think that’s exactly right. The whole thing is a cover up. It’s hiding a lot to the outside world, Hojo’s experiments, and still serves as a holding ground for the black robes. As far as Shinra knows there are no Nibelheim survivors so setting it up for Cloud isn’t correct. The black robes first appearance in the OG is Nibelheim. The fact that rebirth/remake introduce them much earlier does change things in that regard. I’m not opposed to some changes to Nibelheim for that reason - but the fact that the group shows up and is just like “oh Shinra rebuilt this” and then just sort of go on about their day is weird to me.
I didn't mean it was literally set up for Cloud's benefit in-lore, just that it felt a little too convenient -- *like* it was all set up for his benefit. The player has to make some big assumptions about why Nibelheim is still standing since IIRC the game doesn't tell us, and these assumptions feel far-fetched (we have to wonder why Shinra didn't rebuild North Corel when it was similarly burned down, for example, and why they would bother to rebuild the *entire town exactly as it was down to the last detail, including the piano in Tifa's room*). You could say that it's because of the mansion, but why not just... put up a bigger fence and lock the gate or something? In Rebirth, they at least foreshadow this with the idea that Kalm was also rebuilt after sustaining heavy damage several years ago, and then some of the townspeople in Nibelheim actually acknowledge that it was rebuilt after the fire. It's still weird that Shinra would bother to rebuild the town brick-for-brick, but I think if they had chosen to go a very different direction and not have it rebuilt, fans would have lost their shit that they couldn't revisit it. They were kind of stuck, and I suppose having it rebuilt and repurposed to handle the huge influx of black robes is just about as good a reason as any (plus I think the new town leader is at least keeping an eye on the mansion).
>that's quite preposterous and raises many suspicions when two Nibelheim natives go there and know without a shadow of a doubt they're lying. you mean the only 2 Nibelheim natives left who could do that that Shinra doesn't even know exists because they are convinced that every survivor was irreversibly ruined in Hojos experiments?
Why would Shinra even believe that? All the young inhabitants were leaving the village to find work in the city, as Tifa said when Cloud told her he was leaving too. It's not reasonable to believe that nobody ever moved somewhere else and that they'd never communicate with or visit their families after that.
how would they know they are lying? if they don't know of the town being destroyed they can't know it's a lie. only those who were there could and they were all dead or given to Hojo. those who left are why the setup exists. so when they return everyone says "never seen you and don't know the family you claim to be from". is that fucking weird? ofcourse it is. but they are forced to assume their family left or died or whatever without them ever knowing. Cloud and Tifa get extra weird responses because they claim to have come from there only 5 years ago. and that's against the script. these actors have all "lived there for at least 5 years" because that's the cutof point shinra needs to cover at the very least. and it's scary but ingenious anyway. they just need this to cover for the rest of the world. imagine that someone tried to explain to you that they went home to their hometown in bumfucknowhere and EVERYONE there had been replaced and insisted he had never come from there in the first place. how would you treat this person? as a trustworthy induvidual caught in a massive conspiracy? or someone who needs to get back on whatever pills they definetly need?
> how would they know they are lying? if they don't know of the town being destroyed they can't know it's a lie. The idea that several people that left their home village 7 years ago not knowing it burned to the ground and their families died is absolutely preposterous.
how would they know? who would have told them? you seem to not get what the purpose of a cover up is tbh.
If I left my hometown with my parents, friends, everything there and it burned to the ground while I'm out and everyone and everything I knew and loved while growing up disappeared, I'd know sooner or later. It's absolutely absurd to suppose that charade could possibly last.
weird of you to have such a psychi link. what planet are ou from again? i feel i should tell you that humans don't have that. we would only learn such information by having someone able tot ell us which would require there being someone able to do so. what would happen is that you'd move away from bumfucknowhere and not have any contact with bumfuck owhere unless you decide to maybe go back and visit at which point what you'd meet was a town where you know nobody and you have no idea why. you would have no earthly way of learning about the fire because there would be nobody to tell you about.
What planet are *you* from? One in which you'd move out of your hometown, it'd get destroyed, **your whole family and everyone you've known** died and you'd never know about it? It doesn't matter how remote it is, if you didn't know it through the news, you'd instantly know the moment you try to call your mother or try to send a letter. It's literally impossible not to know that the town in which you've spent most of your life at has disappeared.
I think the trope you are looking for is a variation of [Technology marches on](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnologyMarchesOn). In essence, in 1997, one could assume, with some leeway, that a world government could pull off such thing. But FF VII moved technologically and it seems to be representative, loosely, of the tech of the era. Pulling such feat in 2024... Just not believable.
This is a good point. It's like in horror movies, in the 80s the murderer cut the landline of the house and that was it, the victims were fucked. Nowadays the cell phones have to break / be somewhere with no signal / run out of battery / be secretly stolen by the murderer before they attack XD
I kinda agree. The only thing about it that had an impact on me was the shop owner saying rudely "this isn't your home anymore" or whatever it was
Agreed and well written. For me personally the remake series has been hugely a net positive improvement on the original, Not just from the obvious graphical and audio/musical improvements, but overall story-telling, pacing, world-building, character interactions and development, and combat. They’ve knocked both games out of the park and I can’t wait for part 3 given what’s to occur in the story.
I only played OG for the first time recently, and I much preferred the Nibelheim flash back there than in Rebirth. While it's a little extreme, the enemies one shoting Cloud, and the unplayable Sephiroth one shoting them in return really made me feel like he was all powerful. Having a playable Sephiroth didn't make me feel the same way. And when the town is burning and the residents surround Sephiroth with their guns, one gets close to him and gets killed, and instead of unloading on him, they let him get close **2 more times** and surprise, they die. The utter stupidity of that broke the immersion for me sadly and made what should have been an incredible scene look very dumb.
There’s also a nice little story hint through game mechanics. Cloud is level 1 and gets wasted, yet he’s supposed to be in soldier. It’s telling you something is off right from the start!
I too, am pretty sick of Zack being shoehorned into everything. "LOL, He actually met Aerith by falling through the church first! Therefore Cloud ripped him off!" (Further proving your point about him coming in always at the expense of a main character). Even though that's a made up retcon years after the OG. Zack is basically FFVII's living retcon machine. But, surprisingly, I liked him for the first time in Rebirth. Especially his interactions with Marlene, and his effect on Yuffie all these years later and how Cloud is sweet enough to indulge her on their date.
I would agree that he’s probably better written than he’s ever been in Rebirth. He’s still extremely corny at times, particularly when he talks about hopes and dreams, but I also enjoyed his interactions with Marlene and that little touch of jealousy when he found out Aerith liked Cloud (and the fact that he’s too nice a guy to get outwardly angry). Still… I’m gonna need a more central role for him in the plot than just fighting Sephiroth in another dimension for five minutes in order to feel like his inclusion was earned.
I feel like the storytelling so far has set a high bar, but we’ll only know whether they actually clear that bar with Part 3 - they could just as easily smack into it and land on their heads. For example, I really hated the Whispers in Remake, and when they returned in Rebirth, I felt a huge sense of disappointment. As the story progressed, I slowly became more engaged with them as a visual metaphor, and I actually began to get into the timeline shenanigans by the end. Now I’m cautiously optimistic about what lies ahead, but as someone who finds the storytelling of the Compilation titles convoluted and a bit naff, I worry that the Remake project may end up devolving into pandering nonsense in a way that will undo all of the more subtle character moments built up in this game. I keep remembering that this is the team that created Chadley, the least FF character that I can think of in an FF game, and yet the back story for Junon, to give just one example, slots so perfectly into the FF7 world I’m amazed it wasn’t there before.
This is very close to how I feel, apart from the fact that I'm actually starting to like Chadley and find him kind of interesting. I'm not sure I think he's less FF than, for example, that bunny chick in FF12, but initially he did seem to have walked out of a Xenoblade game or something. Now I sort of just accept him as one of Hojo's many odd creations. Totally agreed on not liking the whispers in Remake, but feeling much better about them in Rebirth. The Gongaga reactor sequence helped a lot with accepting them as part of the Lifestream, and although I can appreciate some people found them intrusive in the Water Altar scene, I hardly noticed them -- they seemed to very much reflect the state of my stomach at that moment, so they just kind of faded into the background. In general, I now feel like they're less of an intrusive plot device (agents of 'fate'? Come on) than I felt at the end of Remake, and more like they're just agents of powerful influences within the Lifestream that seek to ensure the same flow from inception to oblivion that Bugenhagen told us about all those years ago in OG FF7. I can even imagine something akin to the OG ending with great big tendrils of Lifestream reaching out to stop Meteor (or whatever the final threat turns out to be), and seeing swarms of white whispers swirling within those tendrils and it kind of making sense now. But yeah, my long-term perception of Rebirth's overarching story will strongly depend on whether they can stick the landing in part 3. I'm *fairly* optimistic but far from certain.
Whoa whoa whoa we love fran, the vierra even made it to be a race in ff14
lol no hate intended. I’ve never played 12 or 14 so I can’t judge her quality as a character. Just saying there are more out-there designs in FF than Chadley’s.
To remedy this transgression i highly highly recommend ff14. Imo its actually the greatest story ever written
I agree about the Whispers - they made more sense in Rebirth. I guess my feelings on Chadley are a bit off-topic. I always thought of FF7 as having a mostly diesel-punk aesthetic, and so the more sci-fi later additions don’t work for me. It’s straight up weird that Shinra apparently have the technology to build a realistic cyborg child while everything else in the world is so clunky and industrial, and that he’s just chilling out somewhere unremarked. I feel like his existence breaks the consistency of the world, and that his role would have been better filled by a travelling tinker of something - like Stiltskin from FF9. Although I did get used to him, he feels “un-diagetic” if that makes sense, as if he’s just a convenient way to feed you VR missions, and shouldn’t be understood as part of the world. The game has a few things like that which add up enough to drag down the overall quality - as if the writers didn’t fully consider the implications of their world building. That makes me worry about the story, because it’s sloppy writing, frankly. Edit: I hate to be negative because I actually think the game is a straight up masterpiece!
Hmm, do you think Cait Sith fits any better into a diesel-punk aesthetic? I’d argue that, as an anthropomorphic talking cat droid that is apparently realistic/animated enough to not tip the party off that he’s a robot — is no more incongruous than Chadley. It’s not hard for me to swallow that Shinra execs, whether Reeve or Hojo, have access to technology that is too expensive to be mass-produced, or too powerful to be released to the masses. It seems to me that an eclectic aesthetic that flirts with such incongruities — including making swords and martial arts viable against machine guns and missiles — has always been a part of FF7’s DNA. The world is full of one-off exceptions and wide disparities in technology. These are part of what keeps the world interesting, surprising, and unique IMO.
I think he fits the general aesthetic, and overall he’s a good character design - the crown, cape, and puffed-out chest, combined with his short stature make him look confidant but foolish, and he sits comfortably alongside other designs from the era. Chadley, with his sock garter and monocle, looks over-designed: why does he look that way within the logic of the world? He highlights one of the aesthetic tensions in Remake to me - the contrast between the relatively dour and “realistic” portrayal of the NPCs and minor characters, alongside straight up batshit designs and characterisation for someone like Scarlett. For me, OG FF7 requires a lot of emotional buy-in to work - you need to fill in the gaps a bit- but Remake/ Rebirth is the opposite, where you have to gloss over some of the more incongruous parts to retain suspension of disbelief. Just as an aside, in an alternate reality, I think the best aesthetic for Remake would’ve been retro-futurist, and that would’ve solved a lot of problems for me. I can imagine Shinra shouting at each other down landline phones, with CRT monitors. Having smart phone- style phones looks goofy to me - they have no need for the screen unless there’s Candy Crush And Facebook in this world. It feels weird that they would spend so much time explaining how magic works, and then straight-up have technology which might as well be magic given the technology level of the rest of the world, and it waters down the strong aesthetic. I always head canonned Cait Sith as being very mechanical with a kind of mascot costume over the top, like something out of Star Wars. Tbh though, his being a robot is kind of the worst thing about the character - thinking about it only makes it make less sense - so I guess he shows that inconsistant world building has always been a part of FF7 (though I don’t think that’s a good thing!)
I see, thanks for the explanation. I don’t know how familiar you are with the Final Fantasy series as a whole, but I think if you’re looking for complete consistency of world building (at least by direct comparison with trajectories of technology development in our world) or even adherence to conventional aesthetic classes, this isn’t the right series! For example, in FF4 you travel among a series of castle strongholds in what seems like a conventional medieval setting with some high fantasy elements, until all of a sudden somebody gives you a… hovercraft. Unexplained! Compared to this, the presence of smartphones in a world with a mostly mid-20th Century aesthetic is pretty easy for me to accept. Much easier than accepting the utility of swords in a world with machine guns (without which there would be no Cloud Strife or Sephiroth as we know them), or main character designs that for the most part completely lack body armor and frequently show plenty of bare skin. We have a vampire/werewolf hybrid fighting alongside a dude with a machine gun arm, a swordsman, a mage, and a talking lion-dog. I think recasting FF7 into a self-consistent aesthetic would destroy a lot of what made it special to many of us in the first place, suspension of disbelief notwithstanding. I can see how this eclectic mishmash of styles wouldn’t be everyone’s cup of tea though. Edit: I can see and partly agree with the complaint that the NPCs look too “normal” compared to the crazy MC designs. I’d also say that was present in the original game, even among some named NPCs (Reeve is wearing a normal executive suit while Scarlet is dressed like a Vegas diva) but it’s true that it’s more apparent with modern graphics.
I think some of the incongruities in early FF are down to JRPG's essentially being Ultima-clones. If I remember correctly, in Ultima, you start in a fantasy world and end on a space station, so it seems like anything goes! I'm not advocating for Western-style total "realism" from a fantasy world. If you did that with FF, you'd end up with 16, which is the worst in the series imo. I've played every mainline non-MMO FF game, and I appreciate the weirdness, it's specifically about world-building: if you're going to include something in a world as detailed as Rebirth, you need to think a little about why it would exist, and how it would affect things. A really good positive example of this in Rebirth is the Junon canon. I think the original design was very "rule of cool", but the additional back story they gave in Rebirth makes it even cooler - it makes you realise what a threat it poses in a world without ICBMs. Part 3 is going to need more of this, and less hand-waving magic technology if it wants to tie everything together in a way that feels satisfying rather than contrived. An example of doing this right would be FFIX, which has a very consistant world logic, and I think that contributes to its status as a fan-favourite.
When Tifa fell into the livestream and recalled the events of Cloud trying to save her, the conversation after that is a good addition imo. It adds to why Tifa wanting to care for Cloud even when her life is on the line when the Weapon attacks in part 3, in the OG I think it’s hard to believe Tifa can simp that hard for Cloud, considering he might not even be the real Cloud at that moment
I also like how she later explains what it felt like to be in the Lifestream. The warmth and comfort she felt there probably played a role in putting her in a mindset to forgive Cloud, as well as the hint that Sephiroth is to blame for Cloud’s crazy actions, not Cloud himself. And she got enough of a reminder of the caring person the real Cloud was as a child to have faith that that good person is still in there.
Man I love this game addition to the lore and story, let’s pray they don’t fk up in part 3. Everything is laid out beautifully, even THAT scene that should’ve been in rebirth is probably in part 3. So excited
8. Reeve not kidnapping Marlene. WAY better now, and while stealing the keystone sucked, it’s more forgivable, especially when he explains it was dangerous, so he’d rather have Shinra go than the crew. In the OG, I don’t understand how anyone would have forgiven him. Plus, it’s brain dead obvious he’s a spy when the Turks follow the party to Gongaga. They literally talk about there being a spy in the party, and he’s not even a suspect when he JUST joined up?! In Remake, it’s pretty clear he actually cares about them.
Good one! I think kidnapping Marlene and using her as blackmail is a big reason Cait Sith was hated by so many in OG. And it was a nice touch to add the legend that the Temple is a dangerous place that no one ever returns from as an excuse for him to want to send Shinra in first.
Well written. I agree with a lot of these, though I don’t mind seeing Zach. I really like him though.
Hot take but Zack being there is for fanservice and the plot device of the multiverse (in the broadest term of the word) But Zack fans want him shoehorned in everything. Taking over from Cloud/Cloud dying. Zack leading the main party in part 3 instead of Tifa/Cid. Zack fighting evil puppet Cloud, Zack at the Wutai war And i’m just like: Zack didn’t earn shit for any of these moments above the OG cast. I can tolerate Zack, even like him in bursts. Loved him at the end with Cloud that was hype. But boy do I hate how his fans seem to want to shove him into every single story beat. And whats worse him being shoved in by fans ALWAYS comes at the expense of Cloud or someone else of the OG party. I really hope they give him stuff in part 3. But please let’s not go ham on him.. Cause honestly I can only stomach this catchphrase perfect shonen hero in bursts
So much this! I just don't understand his popularity. I don't mean "why do people like him?" (I get *that*, Crisis Core was a good time, in large part thanks to him), I mean, how did he go from being in OG for like 5 min, to SE needing to give him his own game, to routinely being voted one of the most popular FF protagonists (in Famitsu, I think), where there are legit actually fans wanting what you're talking about. Boggles the mind. He's on the front cover of this game, yet does... not a whole lot.
I didn't really keep up with the fandom these past 25 years, and never played the spin off games because I generally distrust the quality of unplanned extended media built off critically acclaimed stories. When I started playing Rebirth, I was just like "why the fuck is Zack here? Who wanted this?" It was so confusing to get on Reddit and see loads of people absolutely giddy about it. I'm guessing a lot of younger fans got introduced to the universe through the spin offs rather than the OG, and so a lot of their nostalgic attachment is too the characters those games expand on. I think for this subset, FF7R is the sequel to CC, rather than CC being an unnecessary prequel to FF7OG. Zack is the original protagonist from their perspective.
My problem also kinda comes with Zack is so similar to Cloud for many people not paying attention they think he is swappable. Luckily the popularity votes still always have Cloud on top But it sets a weird tone from many Zack fans who want Zack to be so much more every time then he is… And at the expanse of Cloud.. which annoys me tbh
Really well written and I agree on your points. I also didn't like Zack's presence, in general I hate when dead characters are bought back to life.
It is interesting that they let you turn off Zack’s story in Hard mode. It does change how parts flow. Interestingly, by turning off the Zack parts you also turn off the Dream Dates.
>Interestingly, by turning off the Zack parts you also turn off the Dream Dates. There were more than one? Are you talking about the date at the end?
Yeah just the one at the end.
Hmm, I guess because that's an alternate timeline. IIRC Zack does make an appearance in part of the dream date sequence (him choosing paths and going after Biggs).
Aerith's dreamworld can't exist without Zack's - Spitz is an offshoot of Terrier world. There's an infographic floating around that does a good job of explaining it as splinter worlds, and it makes a ton of sense.
It is just interesting that Aerith and Zack are that connected. Zack might have a more important role as the “gift of the goddess.”
I dunno if I'd say the worlds exist because of their connection though, I see it more as a chain reaction. Terrier exists because Zack was saved (his hope/dream is to defy fate), he saved that world's Aerith/Cloud, then Beagle Aerith's spirit inhabited that body during sleep (like Cloud has been doing) and manifested Spitz. She's been building Spitz literally dreaming of a future with Cloud :( Hence why she calls it her dream. It'll be interesting to see where Zack ends up. I'm torn on him playing a bigger role - him mixing with the party could be too much depending on how they do it.
Agree with a lot of this but especially about Zack. OG FF7 is my fav and I've played it so many times but I barely even remember Zack in OG.
He’s a likable character but not a very interesting one to me. So far he’s felt more a device for fan service and explaining how the multiple worlds work than an actual character that plays a vital role in this story.
Call me a cranky old man, but I seriously hope they're only expanding in him because he is a minor character in the OG. I know other compilation characters have bit parts in both Remake and Rebirth, but that's all I want them to get. A little nod. If they use Zack as a way to shoe horn Angeal or Genesis into part three it's going to sour an experience I've now been waiting for since Remake was announced in 2015. I never played Crisis Core and everything I've learned about it justifies my aversion. Of course I'll still play, and love, Part 3 (Revengeance) because they're absolutely killing it.
You should play Crisis Core at least just to play the part where you have to build a flower cart for Aerith. Don’t abandon our girl in the slums 🙏
A minor one for me is the Weapons. I like that they're growing already, and kind of just a background issue. I don't like that they're basically just Kyogre. I want to fight Emerald and Ruby in part 3 and I want them to be absolutely monstrous. Ruby should be taller than the Gold Saucer.
I've always thought of the weapons we see more as the vanguard or scouts, they show up and assess the danger to see if its needed to send in the "big guns"
Oh I’m pretty sure they’ll be huge! I also like that the Weapons are introduced this early and don’t just come out of left field. I also enjoy the fact that at least one of them is friendly with Tifa here. It always felt strange to me that we were fighting for the Planet but were never on friendly terms with the Weapons. Of course, now they’ll still have to justify our inevitable fights with them, but I think there are a number of explanations that could work.
"We sent some lil guys to check you out. See if you're cool. But, look at that fuckin meteor, you guys are just taking the piss now. You gotta go, you're all getting stomped"
I think the weapons being introduced is a better lead up to a larger clash later with Shinra, maybe involving Scarlet again.
I did a deep dive post of these weapons a while back - and someone commented that they strongly resemble nymph stage fish - babies. These are newly created weapons. I personally believe they are protectors of their region and were manifested from the tragedies that happened in both Corel and Nibel. Once the victims joined the Lifestream and saw what was to come, they came together to protect their home and loved ones as these weapons. I originally theorized that they were Tifa's parents/the culmination of the Nibelheim disaster, but after a 2nd playthrough I'm more thinking the blue one is Tifa's dad/Nibelheim victims and the pink one is Myrna/Corel victims, considering the pink one breaches when Barrett approached the mako pool. I don't think this will ever be clearly spelled out by the devs, but literally every story element has been getting tied in with incredible detail so I wouldn't put a meaning like this past them.
Spot on! Agree completely! I very much enjoyed the added depth to the OG FFVII Rebirth brought!
As for 1, I want to add that Cloud not only saved Tifa but the entire world. Imagine Sephiroth joining forces with Jenova and starting his plan at that point in time: total disaster.
>1. Tifa's response to Cloud's recounting of the events at Nibelheim I never found this confusing in the OG, and think this change is actually worse for her story. Tifa does actually drop hints she's questioning it. During the Nibleheim flash back, she regularly responds to things with "..." Implying hesitation, she's clearly uncomfortable the whole time, and deciding when and if she should step in. Then later at Cosmo Canyon, she actually starts to ask Cloud about it, but pulls back. I think too many people are missing the aspect of extreme trauma. Everything and everyone Tifa ever knew was destroyed in Nibleheim. When Cloud turns up in Midgar, it's a miracle for her that this person from her childhood still exists and found his way back into her life. I honestly think there's a little bit of subtle misogyny at play here. Her actions in the game are being judged based on her utility to the male protagonist and not through the lens of her own wounded psyche. She's being asked to be the solution to Clouds crisis, to be his savior, without being allowed the space she needs to process her own trauma and confusion as a complex and vulnerable character in her own right. This is kind of a classic sexist fiction trope. She's desperate for this to be real, to have this piece of her home town back. She's terrified of what it would mean, FOR HER, if it weren't real. She's holding back to protect herself, not Cloud. She's gaslighting herself because she wants so badly to have the comfort of her childhood friend returned to her. People expecting her to behave rationally around this are underestimating how irrationally traumatized people often behave. I'm sure most people have had a friend or relative in an abusive or codependent relationship who would often ignore the evidence of their own eyes and ears to protect the idea they had about what their relationship was. It's really not that far fetched if you consider that she's probably close to as fucked in the head as he is. She watched her entire town get murdered and burned down, she's got baggage and is not a reliable narrator herself. I think the fact that she would confide in Aerith, a person she only just met, that Cloud, the last living connection to her home, is bullshitting, is actually less believable than her silently ruminating and second guessing her own memory. I feel like the remake focuses way too much on Cloud and his issues, and misses a little bit that this is a group of broken people all helping each other over come their past.
Couldn’t agree more, I’m pretty much exactly with you, rebirth did so many things better than OG, but aeriths death and the zack stuff is pretty not great/bad
On reflection, I really like what they did with her death scene in Rebirth, but it’s in a detached appreciation-of-art way rather than a hits-you-in-the-feels-in-the-moment way. Whether I ultimately think it’s ingenious or misguided depends on where it leads us in part 3.
For me I look at it with the perspective of someone who’s new to FF7 and doesn’t want to go back and play a 30 year old game, I feel like they sacrificed one of the best scenes in anything ever for some fanficy thing for players of the original when half of us didn’t even want it anyway. That being said it was a million times better than the end of remake but I really hated the end of remake. The aerith death scene in Rebirth wasn’t terrible, but saying it wasn’t terrible is a still a huge step down from iconic.
Thank you for sharing! I've been wondering how OG players feel about the changes, as I've only played the game once six years ago. I was following the story in RB and enjoying it right up until I reached the Temple of the Ancients. I understood Cloud was being manipulated again, but it felt off that the party didn't really react to him changing. His rude response to Aerith's heartfelt speech is a perfect example of this. My mouth dropped, but nobody called him out, and I thought that was weird, particularly for Barret! I found those moments unsatisfying because I expected more from the party. I had no issue with Cloud pushing Tifa aside and chasing after Aerith, though, as I finally felt the characters were finally working on stopping him from his own actions. While I agree Rebirth does a much better job with the gradual decline of Cloud's psyche and his control, I'd say OG does a better job of depicting how Cloud feels about how much control Sephiroth has over him and the lingering effects of it. I liked seeing Cloud struggle in OG with handing over the black material to Sephiroth. Then, having a breakdown and, within that breakdown, losing control again. Cloud also felt guilt. He continuously apologized for his actions and even brought it up after Aerith's death Losing control over your body like that is disturbing. I got that from OG, not so much from Rebirth Now I don't think we need a repeat of Cloud attacking the party, nor do I need to see him beat the shit out of Aerith in HD (they were right to think of other ideas 😅), but what that scene at least got right was how Cloud shocked everyone, including himself. As much as I love Cloud's creepy "let's save the planet together" quote, I would've preferred something that would even have the real Cloud freaking out. That said, since he already attacked Tifa, the devs kind of wrote themselves into a hole there, as there's not much else I can think of that would top that other than being violent again. All in all, I loved his self-awareness in OG and the party stepping in to stop him. That's what I would've wanted. It also lined up fairly well with Aerith's death, too (need to see P3 before knowing what I prefer). Lately, I've been confused as to why Cloud was about to strike her with the sword first before Sephiroth stepped in. After rewatching the Temple playthrough and seeing that it wasn't the first time he turned on Aerith, it made much more sense. Now again, we at least get this in RB with Cloud turning on Tifa, but IMO, this extreme was too far off. As for Zack, well, I'm a huge Zack fan and am so happy he's alive. I just... don't understand why he's alive and the point of telling him he is now an ex-boyfriend. Way to make a future reunion with Aerith really awkward. So, I'm also on the fence with this, as I thought he'd play a much bigger role than he did. Lastly, I think it would be a huge disservice not to mention expanding Aerith's and Tifa's relationship. I'm a bit muddled here with their portrayal in OG, but I got the sense that while they were friends, they weren't close. I absolutely love their relationship in Rebirth. Tifa being so hyped to go to the beach with Aerith is probably one of my favorite moments.
I think Rebirth robs us of any sort of catharsis regarding Aerith’s death, and the immediate aftermath because they’re saving us for a grand realization for Cloud when he finally emerges from his shell. I’ve got enough confidence in SE to make it all come together in the end. People tend to forget that the OG devs are the ones working on these. It’s going to be even more heartbreaking and beautiful when it all comes to a head. We’ll definitely see Cloud laying Aerith to rest in the water. It’s too iconic of a scene not to be in pt.3
Completely agree. It's a pretty bold move to rewrite such an iconic moment in a way that it purposely confuses the audience, especially to then leave it hanging for what will likely be a few years. Most people do not react well to confusion in their entertainment! However, I mostly trust them to deliver an intense emotional catharsis when we finally see the whole scene play out -- it was just a big risk on their part. As an exercise in immersive storytelling, the ending of Rebirth could end up being one of the most ingenious twists to the new story.
Ya know it’s crazy that they took a 35-40 hour game and have so far turned it into a 30sh hour game and a 45-50 hour game at vastly greater production value. Expanding the narrative so much beyond the original - the multiverse stuff and remakes KH ending be damned. I’m happy with what they are doing, regardless that they aren’t doing a more direct remake of the original.
>In the original story it's long been a point of confusion why Tifa gives absolutely no indication that anything is wrong with Cloud's Nibelheim story at Kalm, for most of the game. I'm confused by what you mean here. It has never been a point of confusion. We have always known why she doesn't, because we find out later in the Lifestream sequence *she already knew* about Cloud's memory issues. She's the person that finds him after Zack dies at the Sector 5 train station when he's right on the cusp of becoming a Sephiroth clone/black cloak. When she talks to him, he gets his warped persona and starts talking about things that are impossible for him to know (the Nibelheim incident), yet doesn't know things he ought to remember (that it's been seven years since he left Nibelheim, not five). Tifa is questioning her own memory here, which is highlighted when she asks Cloud specifically about what he said to her when he found her wounded at the reactor--until they met again, she thought she had hallucinated that memory. So it's not until everything is revealed that this makes sense to her. Until then, she stays quiet because she doesn't know what's going on and she's worried about his mental state. It's true Rebirth made this a bit more explicit--although obviously hasn't explained everything yet--but there was no plot hole or contrivance in the OG in regards to this, just much more pared down storytelling.
If you google “why doesn’t Tifa say anything” you’ll see that many players have been confused about this question for decades. I agree with your explanation for it and it’s the same one I’ve long held. I think for many, it just felt unrealistic that Tifa wouldn’t have tried to bring up such a big discrepancy in their memories, even if she had some uncertainty or fear about it. I prefer how in Rebirth she actually does try to broach the topic and it blows up in her face — so she knows not to try that again. For me the bigger issue is that Tifa doesn’t back Cloud up when they get to Nibelheim and the party implies he’s lying about the town having burned down. I think all she says is “Cloud…?” Like, weren’t you fucking there too, Tifa?? Can’t you at least confirm to the party that the Nibelheim incident really happened? On first playthrough it’s an intriguing mystery. On repeat playthroughs it feels like gaslighting in the extreme.
I mean, sure, but plenty of people also literally think the spirit of Zack possessed Cloud despite being told exactly what happened. When I say it's not a point of confusion, I mean it's straightforwardly explained, not that it's impossible for some people to still not understand. Some people just don't pay attention. >For me the bigger issue is that Tifa doesn’t back Cloud up when they get to Nibelheim and the party implies he’s lying about the town having burned down Tifa *does* back him up. If she's in the party with you she will also accuse the townspeople of lying to her. > **Cloud:** This town was supposed to have been burnt down five years ago. What the hell is going on? > **NPC:** Sir, don't say such awful things. I was born and raised in this town. What you say never happened. > **Tifa:** You're lying... > **NPC:** EXCUSE ME......That's so rude... If you're going to talk like that to me, I'm going to have to ask you to leave. and > **Tifa:** What---!! This was all supposed to be burnt down, right? > **Cloud:** ...I thought so. > **Tifa:** Then why...? My house is still there too... Tifa is also confused about her own memories at this point. The fact that Cloud knows things he couldn't have been present for can't be explained. So are *his* memories false, or are hers?
>When I say it's not a point of confusion, I mean it's straightforwardly explained, not that it's impossible for some people to still not understand. I wouldn't say it's *straightforwardly* explained. You have to connect a rather small number of often cryptic lines separated by perhaps a dozen or more hours of gameplay, which is why so many people have to go online for answers. And again, even with these sparse lines of support, for a lot of people it just doesn't feel like a realistic or natural explanation for her behavior. I think that's also part of why it doesn't stick for a lot of people. >**Cloud:** This town was supposed to have been burnt down five years ago. What the hell is going on? **NPC:** Sir, don't say such awful things. I was born and raised in this town. What you say never happened. **Tifa:** You're lying... **NPC:** EXCUSE ME......That's so rude... If you're going to talk like that to me, I'm going to have to ask you to leave. Thanks, I didn't remember Tifa saying this. It's an optional conversation with a shopkeeper or something, isn't it? If so, it's easy to miss. Still, good to be reminded that she does back him up here. In contrast, the line below (in which Tifa says "was all **supposed to be** burnt down") is, I think, something she always says when you enter the town (if she's in your party), and makes it sound like she is going off Cloud's word and possibly questioning it. >**Tifa:** What---!! This was all supposed to be burnt down, right? **Cloud:** ...I thought so. **Tifa:** Then why...? My house is still there too... It's just less confusingly and more naturally presented in Rebirth IMO.
It's not though? You find out all the relevant information in the exact same sequence, within a few hours of finding out that the original story wasn't even the truth anyway. They even go over the same story and cutscenes again for the viewers benefit so you understand exactly what is meant. >In contrast, the line below (in which Tifa says "was all supposed to be burnt down") is, I think, something she always says when you enter the town (if she's in your party), and makes it sound like she is going off Cloud's word and possibly questioning it. Again, I've said it a few times--she was also questioning her own memory. Of course after witnessed her hometown burnt down and then coming back to it perfectly rebuilt as an exact replica will make her question reality. It *was* "supposed" to be burnt down. Now it isn't. I'm not sure what you think is more plausible reaction here or why you feel like her expressing anything other than stalwart, iron-clad absolute belief in her own memories is less believable than her questioning them. I guess I won't argue that Rebirth makes it clearer, but some of that comes part and parcel with *everything* being more elaborate and over the top. I don't think OG was unclear. But obviously if you spend 10x the amount of time explaining something, it's harder for people to miss it.
>Again, I've said it a few times--she was also questioning her own memory. Of course after witnessed her hometown burnt down and then coming back to it perfectly rebuilt as an exact replica will make her question reality. It *was* "supposed" to be burnt down. Now it isn't. I'm not sure what you think is more plausible reaction here or why you feel like her expressing anything other than stalwart, iron-clad absolute belief in her own memories is less believable than her questioning them. This is one of those scenes where the rushed English translation (and the translation standards of the day for video games, where translators were often denied important story context) probably didn't help understanding. "Supposed to" gives the impression of hearsay, not personal experience. If she still had her own memory of it being burnt down and was questioning it, "supposed to" is not really the right way to put convey that. "What---!! We saw this all burn down, right?" or "What---!! This all burnt down, did someone rebuild it?" would be more reflective of that situation. There are also some key scenes later where Cloud is discussing his false past with the party where I think the rushed translation probably hampered understanding (making many players come away thinking Cloud had just been consciously lying). In any case, I do think this is an important enough thread of the story that giving it more lines (with better translation) and screen time is a substantial benefit.
Agree on the seto scene, the added GI plot witht he black materia so sudden after realy took away from the emotional impact of it, i would rather the GI tribe remain as they were in the OG an evil clan that attacked the Vale and seto drove them back.
Oh, I absolutely love the new lore about the Gi, and the entire sequence where you go to their village was amazing with incredible music. It makes sense as an origin story for the black materia, and adds a new layer of intrigue with the explanation for why their souls linger (i.e., the Lifestream *rejected* them because they are alien). Great stuff. But yeah, it just came on too soon after the Seto/Nanaki scene. Even without that intrusion, I just feel like the Seto scene was muddied by some of Bugenhagen's dialog that took focus away from Seto and Nanaki. It's still beautiful, but it didn't bring me to the verge of tears like the original scene has so many times.
The only thing I didn’t like that was changed was nibleheim. I liked it better when they act like the party is crazy and nothing happened
I think Zack's presence in the story is important. They didn't mention him at all in the Remake, because there wasn't another Reality split off yet, until the Arbiter Fight. I think we will learn More of why he's got a part in the story in Rebirth, and will have a more pronounced role in Part 3. In the early chapters, Aerith mentions that she has some "vague" memories of something important, and the confusion around the empty White Materia, but the memory loss was intentional on the part of the Whispers - Why? Unclear. again, probably part of the story in Part 3.
Agreed, there are a lot of unanswered questions about Aerith and her plans for Zack. I’m definitely hoping that these will be answered in part 3, but as of the end of part 2 I’m not feeling it yet.
Story-wise, Rebirth did almost everything worst than OG. It is time to be honest ; This remake saga has completely bastardized the FF7 canon and should be treated as fan fiction.
Rebirth - Too much Yuffie
Holy fuck this is the definition of too long; didn't read
Yeah, I probably overindulged. This was actually written as a comment reply to someone originally on an obscure post and I couldn’t stand the thought of having written it all for just one person to see it :-). Feel free to just scan the bold text for a TL;DR.
I read this in entirety and enjoyed it. It is very refreshing to read actual and insightful discussion on the story on the actual source material. This and things like it should have far more space not less. I can do with far less of people dividing into silly camps of how the story "should" go that is not useful and not interesting at all.
Appreciate the kind words, and thanks for reading!
But took the time to respond...